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Lord Dan
28-01-2014, 19:18
Now I know the FAQs removed all mention of Dogs of War from each army's respective book, however I'm unclear on what technically invalidates the Dogs of War list published back in 6th edition. Surely it's not that it's an old book, as it's only a little older than the existing (and legal) Bretonnian book.

So what gives? Why do I need permission before taking Dogs of War to a tournament?

IcedCrow
28-01-2014, 19:28
Because tournaments don't expressly allow them. Same as why I cant roll into an event with the 5th edition Undead book and plant Nagash down on the table.

SteveW
28-01-2014, 20:08
Because tournaments don't expressly allow them. Same as why I cant roll into an event with the 5th edition Undead book and plant Nagash down on the table.
You can't use anything from 5th ed because t's incompatible with the current system.

IcedCrow
28-01-2014, 20:10
Right. Just like the 6th edition dogs of war.

SteveW
28-01-2014, 20:15
Right. Just like the 6th edition dogs of war.

Nope, 5th ed stuff is invalidated because the rules are incompatible. 6th edition not so much.

in 5th you had magic that revolved around cards instead of the lore system started in 6th. You also had rules for flying that would be incompatible now.

And finally, the Tomb Kings and Vampire counts books invalidate the old "undead" book because they are the new versions of that book.

IcedCrow
28-01-2014, 20:24
I see.

Well looking at my 5th edition book, the rules aren't really that incompatible to today, esp considering that the army book itself just gives levels for wizards (so the card mechanic does not have to be used) and flyers were flyers, even though the rules for flyers are different today than they were in 1996. In fact looking at a 5th edition stat sheet, a 6th edition stat sheet, and an 8th edition stat sheet, there is little difference. The 5th edition magic system, while using cards, still used essentially the same lore names. Necromancers still chose spells from the Necromancy list, etc...

However, feel free to try to show up with the 6th edition Dogs of War list and use it. Who knows, an event organizer may allow it.

Ohman
28-01-2014, 20:29
Now I know the FAQs removed all mention of Dogs of War from each army's respective book, however I'm unclear on what technically invalidates the Dogs of War list published back in 6th edition. Surely it's not that it's an old book, as it's only a little older than the existing (and legal) Bretonnian book.

So what gives? Why do I need permission before taking Dogs of War to a tournament?

This whole official/unofficial thing is something that gamers have created on their own. The only reason you can't take DoW to a tournament is because that tournament doesn't allow it, nothing else. Local gaming custom is the only thing that prevents you from playing them.

IcedCrow
28-01-2014, 20:43
This whole official/unofficial thing is something that gamers have created on their own. The only reason you can't take DoW to a tournament is because that tournament doesn't allow it, nothing else. Local gaming custom is the only thing that prevents you from playing them.

Agreed. I have the 5th ed Dogs of War book - perhaps its time it makes a comeback :D

VaeVictisGames
28-01-2014, 21:02
Now I know the FAQs removed all mention of Dogs of War from each army's respective book, however I'm unclear on what technically invalidates the Dogs of War list published back in 6th edition. Surely it's not that it's an old book, as it's only a little older than the existing (and legal) Bretonnian book.

So what gives? Why do I need permission before taking Dogs of War to a tournament?

I can only guess it's because it's so old and a White Dwarf list. Much like the Gnoblar army. A similar question can be raised about the validity of the Chaos Dwarf Ravening Hordes list. Does a Forgeworld list supersede a main studio published list?

Morkmillian
28-01-2014, 21:39
i like dogs of war and i wish they were still an army.

i think they are just not allowed at tournies because the army is not supported by GW.
a change in game rules could mean a powerfull build available to them even tho this is not the case (as far as i know)

there was a version of dogs of war updated for 7th ed i think it was
since its unofficial i can post it here right?
a mod delete this part if it shouldnt be here or let me know!!

regiments of renown
http://www.scribd.com/doc/38078985/Warhammer-Regiments-of-Renown

classic regiments of renown
http://www.scribd.com/doc/104475823/Warhammer-Classic-Regiments-of-Renown

and a list for all the reguler troops
http://www.scribd.com/doc/38079464/Warhammer-Dogs-of-War


when we use dogs of war we allow the player to make their army from these 3 books.
theres tons of cool choices and since theres elves men halfings etc etc we tend to just use models from armys we have + dogs of war stuff we already have.

you have to make the rules fit here and there but its all for fun at the end of the day.

decker_cky
28-01-2014, 22:32
Lack of unit types creates a general protection fault and the game crashes.

Lord Dan
28-01-2014, 23:54
The reason one can't use a 5th edition Undead book is because that book has been superseded by another (5 or 6 others, actually). Let's just assume for a moment that the Warhammer World tournament rules are, if nothing else, a decent guideline for other stores/game groups to use to determine what is and isn't legal. The current rules are here:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3720191a_Warriors_Code_2014_V1.4.pdf

Now, rule number 5 on page three says: "5. Your Army List must be selected from a current Games Workshop publication." It then lists "Warhammer Armies: Book" as one of the accepted publications. The DoW list IS a physical army book: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Warhammer-Armies-Dogs-of-War-Book-/291060445804?_trksid=p2054897.l4276 It's current because there hasn't been any book since made to replace it, unless their definition of "current" is "8th edition", in which case Bretonnians, Wood Elves, and Dwarves (for this month) are also invalid. You don't see tournaments turning away Bretonnian players.

The argument here is important because my FLGS looks to "what's generally accepted" when determining tournament/campaign rulings, and the fact that DoW are generally accepted to be invalid without permission confuses me.

Voss
29-01-2014, 00:31
The reason one can't use a 5th edition Undead book is because that book has been superseded by another (5 or 6 others, actually). Let's just assume for a moment that the Warhammer World tournament rules are, if nothing else, a decent guideline for other stores/game groups to use to determine what is and isn't legal. The current rules are here:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3720191a_Warriors_Code_2014_V1.4.pdf

Now, rule number 5 on page three says: "5. Your Army List must be selected from a current Games Workshop publication." It then lists "Warhammer Armies: Book" as one of the accepted publications. The DoW list IS a physical army book: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Warhammer-Armies-Dogs-of-War-Book-/291060445804?_trksid=p2054897.l4276 It's current because there hasn't been any book since made to replace it, unless their definition of "current" is "8th edition", in which case Bretonnians, Wood Elves, and Dwarves (for this month) are also invalid. You don't see tournaments turning away Bretonnian players.

The argument here is important because my FLGS looks to "what's generally accepted" when determining tournament/campaign rulings, and the fact that DoW are generally accepted to be invalid without permission confuses me.

I don't know why it would confuse you. It was created and written under an edition that operates differently on almost every level, at every phase and subphase, and the fact that it isn't currently marketed and sold, and has no miniatures that are currently marketed and sold seems like a subtle sign that the book is in no way current. If you want to play it that is fine, but trying to create an argument made of pure sophistry to somehow justify it seems more than a little ridiculous. Nothing ever 'replaced' the 2nd edition 40k rules for Ad Mech units (or even Squats), or 3rd edition fantasy rules for Zoat allies Or Chaos Tenderizers, or goblin organ guns. That doesn't make them current.

Could they be better about updating Brets and Wood Elves? Sure. But they're FAQed and have unit types and have all those little things that make armies function under the 8th edition rules. The dogs don't, and it seems more sportsmanlike to not inflict the divide by zero errors of an out of date book on your fellow players in a tourney setting. You want to talk someone into a friendly with them? Knock yourself out.

Lord Dan
29-01-2014, 02:02
Yeah, but if I highlight the strengths of my argument while ignoring any glaring weaknesses I can't be beaten.

Your logic makes me sad, Voss. :(

Ramius4
29-01-2014, 02:08
if I highlight the strengths of my argument while ignoring any glaring weaknesses I can't be beaten.

This is going to be sigged :p If I can remember how, it's been a long time...

edit* And for what it's worth, I would have no problem playing vs. a Dogs of War army. There is really nothing rules-wise that is out of whack with the current rules anyways since 6th edition ran on the same essential 'rules engine' that 8th does.

Skywave
29-01-2014, 05:24
[...] and the fact that it isn't currently marketed and sold, and has no miniatures that are currently marketed and sold seems like a subtle sign that the book is in no way current. [...]

That's how I see it too.

If I go to the GW site, I see what are the official armies by looking at the "Warhammer Armies" category. Dogs of War are no longer represented there, and while I wouldn't have a problem with someone wanting to play them I won't count them as official or current.

Lord Solar Plexus
29-01-2014, 07:02
Hmm, Dogs of War are not necessarily disallowed at tournaments. BartBattle already has three DoW players (http://www.tabletopturniere.de/t3_tournament_list.php?tid=11254; look for "Söldner")

Luigi
29-01-2014, 07:02
I do see your point though, Lord Dan: imagine that overnight they decided to drop all of their support for skaven and, without saying anything they'd retire from sale all Skaven miniatures and books then just avoid ever mentioning them again.
What would happen would Skaven become invalid/unofficial? would it need to be a new edition for that to be the case? Maybe two editions?
or it would just slowly fizzle and be doomed to a painfully slow death?

Lordcypress
29-01-2014, 07:17
@Skywave,

I agree with your comment except with that reasoning why are Chaos Dwarves excepted now at tournaments? I don't see their army on GW's home page in the list of armies. But yet they are now excepted because of the "Warriors Code" rules.

Voss
29-01-2014, 11:21
Yeah, but if I highlight the strengths of my argument while ignoring any glaring weaknesses I can't be beaten.

Your logic makes me sad, Voss. :(

Maybe it's too early in the morning, but all I can say is... Maybe your arguments needs some strengths then, and shouldn't be entirely glaring weaknesses?

'A physical book exists' isn't a worthwhile argument. 'Updated and FAQed to the current edition' actually has some traction. The gap between them seems so large that trying to make hay out of the former seem like humor, not a serious attempt at a real discussion.

And as I said, for friendlies, working out all the details of how the various units actually works is fine. But tournaments are terrible places to insist that a group of other people cater to individual whims and interpretations of 'how things should work now'.

logan054
29-01-2014, 11:54
It's hardly rocket science to figure out the unit types, it's like your going to debate with someone if a pikeman is infantry or not!

I'm 99% sure they had official rules in 6th ed, I can certainly remember them being used at 7th ed tournaments, I can remember all the moaning by DoW players when 8th ed came around.

Abaraxas
29-01-2014, 12:20
imagine that overnight they decided to drop all of their support for skaven and, without saying anything they'd retire from sale all Skaven miniatures and books then just avoid ever mentioning them again.
What would happen would Skaven become invalid/unofficial? would it need to be a new edition for that to be the case? Maybe two editions?
or it would just slowly fizzle and be doomed to a painfully slow death?

You mean getting the Space Dwarf treatment?

Despite the bastardry of what happened, some people just keep them alive :D

decker_cky
29-01-2014, 15:36
Pikes cause issues too. They strike first, but how does that compare to "always strikes first"? It's a special rule without definition, unless you upgrade it to ASF.

It's easy to patch those up, like it is with the unit types, but that has you filling in holes for a number of different rules.

Furthermore, if you accept it as being legal for independent armies, then it's legal for adding units to other armies (the rare slot for DoW was always redundant, and not accurate at the end when pikes were allowed in special choices for empire). Warhammer is a permissive ruleset, and the dogs of war document permits adding units to other armies (this was confirmed by a note from Gav in the GW store for a time), and nothing anywhere else prevents this. Cannons for everyone? Discount cannons for empire (since there's no real advantage to great cannons)?

N1AK
29-01-2014, 15:55
To answer the original question: Nothing makes Dogs of War 'unofficial'. What stops them being used at tournaments is that most tournaments list the armies that are allowed and don't list Dogs of War. The reason why most tournaments don't list them? Because the rules don't 100% work without some interpretation. Personally I would happily allow Dogs of War as a stand alone army at any event I ran.

Voss
30-01-2014, 00:20
It's hardly rocket science to figure out the unit types, it's like your going to debate with someone if a pikeman is infantry or not!
Great! So infantry is infantry. Well done... you've solved absolutely none of the problematic stuff. Like the special rules of pretty much each and every unit (or their weapons) that don't quite (or not at all) link up with 8th edition rules. Leading to lots of interpretations, questions, potential irritations and slower games. Which, again, is all fine in a friendly game, but pretty rude to everyone else involved in a tournament.

Kingly
30-01-2014, 00:25
Voss I'm pretty sure you could use the empire rules as a standard, unusual units class as free company, pikes as spears. I know you don't get the special stuff you used to but it does help slightly.

I don't think GW are ever going to release official rules for them ever again.

logan054
30-01-2014, 00:31
Great! So infantry is infantry. Well done... you've solved absolutely none of the problematic stuff. Like the special rules of pretty much each and every unit (or their weapons) that don't quite (or not at all) link up with 8th edition rules. Leading to lots of interpretations, questions, potential irritations and slower games. Which, again, is all fine in a friendly game, but pretty rude to everyone else involved in a tournament.

I know, common sense is a killer.

Lord Dan
30-01-2014, 01:30
Great! So infantry is infantry. Well done... you've solved absolutely none of the problematic stuff. Like the special rules of pretty much each and every unit (or their weapons) that don't quite (or not at all) link up with 8th edition rules. Leading to lots of interpretations, questions, potential irritations and slower games. Which, again, is all fine in a friendly game, but pretty rude to everyone else involved in a tournament.

What special rules,exactly? There's the issue with pikes "striking first" but not granting ASF, however beyond that I'm not clear on the game-stalling compatibility issues you're referring to.

Ramius4
30-01-2014, 01:39
What special rules,exactly? There's the issue with pikes "striking first" but not granting ASF, however beyond that I'm not clear on the game-stalling compatibility issues you're referring to.

Dan, that's because there really aren't any issues. And I think anyone who didn't realize the intent of striking first should logically be translated as the Always Strikes First special rule isn't worth having the discussion with.

Everything in that book makes sense as is. Troop types are a no-brainer, equipment other than pikes is all basic stuff, and their magic items are chosen from the common items list. Literally the only stuff that might need any sort of judgement call might be one or two rules from the Regiments of Renown (if you're even using them).

So while they aren't written for 8th edition, 95% of the rules are still fully compatible, and the other 5% are easily dealt with.

forseer of fates
30-01-2014, 02:19
Maybe someone should just send a email to gw, dow are dead thou, clutching at straws really. Its pretty unlikely they would ever get a new book.

Ramius4
30-01-2014, 02:28
Maybe someone should just send a email to gw, dow are dead thou, clutching at straws really. Its pretty unlikely they would ever get a new book.

They don't care about emails, they care about sales figures. DOW were not profitable enough to justify their continuation.

forseer of fates
30-01-2014, 02:38
Aint that the truth

Voss
30-01-2014, 03:33
Voss I'm pretty sure you could use the empire rules as a standard, unusual units class as free company, pikes as spears. I know you don't get the special stuff you used to but it does help slightly.

I don't think GW are ever going to release official rules for them ever again.
I'm... not sure why you're explaining this to me. I'm perfectly aware the army is dead as a doornail, and don't much care. I'd rather see 3rd edition style Ally and Merc contingents than the silly rubbish that got passed off as an army list and abandoned as a bad idea all around.



What special rules,exactly? There's the issue with pikes "striking first" but not granting ASF, however beyond that I'm not clear on the game-stalling compatibility issues you're referring to.
Er, all of them? I can't think of a single DoW unit that wasn't a ridiculous pile of nonsense, with silly one-off rules for wacky (and equally-one off) models. Unless you're talking about the really generic stuff that never even had models, and was essentially just a neutered empire list. But that is solved by just running an empire list.


Dan, that's because there really aren't any issues. And I think anyone who didn't realize the intent of striking first should logically be translated as the Always Strikes First special rule isn't worth having the discussion with
And, of course, that is all pikes do, right? Wait... no. No, it isn't.
Its also fight in 3 extra ranks, ASF only in the first round, but also even before chariots and other things with ASF, +1 strength when charged by things that weren't infantry and swarms (which is a fun discussion in its own right, since 8th added several unit types, feel free to come up with justifications on your own time as to why it should affect them all), but also remember this stuff only workers against the units that actually charged, and nothing works to the flank or rear. Have fun explaining all that to each and every opponent you face in a tournament, and watch the joy simply light up their faces. Then move on to the next unit with its own set of special snowflake rules that you'll have to explain to each and every opponent. This fun shall not be doubled.

I'm not arguing this to be unreasonable or mean. I'm just saying that wanting to drag all this into a tournament setting is a burden on everyone else, and that just isn't a reasonable thing to do.

Ramius4
30-01-2014, 03:49
I'm not arguing this to be unreasonable or mean. I'm just saying that wanting to drag all this into a tournament setting is a burden on everyone else, and that just isn't a reasonable thing to do.

For a tournament setting, of course not. Which is why I stated in previous posts that playing them against an agreeable opponent is easily taken care of. And in such a case, those pike rules are fairly easy to work with.
For example:

PIKES
Pikes require two hands to use. On any turn in which a unit with pikes is fighting to the front and did not charge, they fight in three Extra Ranks.

If the unit is fighting to the front on the turn in which the enemy charged pikes confer the following additional bonuses. Note that these bonuses only apply against enemy models fighting in the front of the unit, and only if the enemy charged that turn.

• The pike unit has the Always Strikes First special rule.
• The pike unit receives a +1 Strength bonus against Cavalry, Monstrous Beasts, Monstrous Infantry, Monstrous Cavalry, Chariots and Monsters.

Lord Dan
30-01-2014, 05:18
Er, all of them? I can't think of a single DoW unit that wasn't a ridiculous pile of nonsense, with silly one-off rules for wacky (and equally-one off) models. Unless you're talking about the really generic stuff that never even had models, and was essentially just a neutered empire list. But that is solved by just running an empire list.

I think we're talking about entirely different things. The Regiments of Reknown (essentially special character units) and the Dogs of War army list. My original question was regarding the latter, which actually can't be solved by running an Empire list because that doesn't allow me to run several blocks of Dwarves. :p

VaeVictisGames
30-01-2014, 09:05
Er, all of them? I can't think of a single DoW unit that wasn't a ridiculous pile of nonsense, with silly one-off rules for wacky (and equally-one off) models. Unless you're talking about the really generic stuff that never even had models, and was essentially just a neutered empire list. But that is solved by just running an empire list.


And there is where the confusion lies. There are two forms of Dogs of War. One is the Regiments of Renown, which have all the weird stuff and special rules, and then there is the actual Dogs of War list published in White Dwarf. You're talking about the former, those wanting to know why Dogs of War can't be used are talking about the latter.

There is very little beyond pikes that requires an update to 8th in the Dogs of War list. The Regiments of Renown are a separate matter.

Agoz
30-01-2014, 09:31
The pike rules really aren't that complicated, they strike first in the first round of combat, unless they are fighting something with asf, in which case they strike after them, its pretty simple.

Ikhoornix
30-01-2014, 09:56
Weren't all Army Books from the time of the Dog of War book (5th ed?) invalidated by the little Ravening Hordes booklet?
After the Ravening Hordes booklet, the armies had their rules updated in either a proper army book, or in a White dwarf release (in de case of DoW).
The White Dwarf army lists and unit publications should be the latest (6th edition?) rules for the DoW army.

In regards to bringing the rules for pikes in line with the 8th edition rules, it should be taken into consideration that the Pike rules states that the unit fights in 4 ranks if stationary and 2 or 3 (I don't remember exactly) when charging. These are flat "additional" ranks that attack, unlike the current rules for spears, which state +1 rank may attack.
In effect a 10 man wide unit with 4 ranks and pikes will have as many attacks as a unit of the same formation armed with spears. High elves could even fight with one more rank if they had 5 ranks.

Bloodknight
30-01-2014, 10:31
Pikes cause issues too. They strike first, but how does that compare to "always strikes first"? It's a special rule without definition, unless you upgrade it to ASF.

The rule is defined in the army list already, they strike first against anyone who doesn't have ASF - that was a rule in 6th edition, too. "Note that enemies who are entitled to strike first because of a special ability or magic, will still strike before pike-armed models. "



it should be taken into consideration that the Pike rules states that the unit fights in 4 ranks if stationary and 2 or 3 (I don't remember exactly) when charging

You're quoting the 5th edition book where pikes actually worked differently and conferred extra attacks in some circumstances, too. The 6th edition army list says "Fight in four ranks; requires two hands "


Cannons for everyone? Discount cannons for empire (since there's no real advantage to great cannons)?

DoW cannons only do 1d3 wounds. Unless the Great Cannon has been gimped from 1d6 to 1d3, there's your extra points. (I wouldn't know, I stopped playing WFB when I couldn't play Dogs of War anymore. None of the other armies catches my fancy, particularly not Empire with its butt ugly troops and general boredom; I've got a ton of Dwarfs, Norse Marauders and Hobgoblin Fast Cavalry).



Then move on to the next unit with its own set of special snowflake rules

Apart from Pikemen and the general suckage of the Paymaster, hardly any of them do have "special snowflake rules", not even the RoR. The difference between most RoR and a generic unit of the type is weapons, a generic psychology rule or a magic item, usually a +1S sword or stuff like that, nothing special. The more outlandish ones like Richter Kreugar's Lost Company or whatever it's called in English, are so expensive and crappy that nobody takes those anyway.



They don't care about emails, they care about sales figures. DOW were not profitable enough to justify their continuation

Not really a wonder, most tournaments did not allow DoW units outside of a DoW list and there has always been this "smell" of gaming the system when people took a cannon for a chaos army or something like that, although most DoW units were not exactly cheap for what they do and ate a rare slot; using units from different lists was always something seen as beardy. I.e. "the bad idea all around" used to be being able to include foreign units into an army.
But hey, they made it all incredibly worse by allowing allies in general. Now that is a bad idea. Just look at 40K and how it invalidates tons of unit slots (why do they bother writing them in the first place?) in many armies because you can just buy something better from another army. TauDar, for example.

decker_cky
30-01-2014, 15:37
Weren't all Army Books from the time of the Dog of War book (5th ed?) invalidated by the little Ravening Hordes booklet?
After the Ravening Hordes booklet, the armies had their rules updated in either a proper army book, or in a White dwarf release (in de case of DoW).
The White Dwarf army lists and unit publications should be the latest (6th edition?) rules for the DoW army.

There was 1-2 updates to the DoW rules during 6th edition. There was also special characters added to one of the annuals or chronicles, and a bunch of new regiments of reknown added throughout 6th edition.