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Lost Egg
29-01-2014, 21:28
In December it was my birthday and I got a cool pressie...
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I've been wanting to pick up the Rogue Trader book for a while so am dead chuffed with that and its in good nick too.

While reading through I found a few interesting snippets I thought I'd share...

The Jes Goodwin sketch wasn't the first pic of Leman Russ...
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Apparently he started the Space Wolves after rising to prominence in the Lucan crusade, though he suffered lung damage during acid storms!

The Space Wolves were originally from Lucan not Fenris...perhaps its wasn't Viking sounding enough for GW...? There's even a nice breakdown of the Space Wolf Fortress-Monastry.

While "most" chapters recruit from feral worlds some chapters choose to hunt down entire gangs of Hive scum in recruitment drives.

Slann used to be a playable race...well that wasn't exactly news to me but it was still cool reading about them.

Eldar used to wear Refractor fields as standard.

I also found an intro to RT in an old WD...

"You won't need hundreds of models to play Warhammer 40,000, a dozen or so will do." Oh how times have changed ;)

AndrewGPaul
29-01-2014, 21:52
You still don't need "hundreds of models"; a Grey Knight Kill Team, for example, is five. :)

Slayer-Fan123
29-01-2014, 23:08
Fascinating stuff! What were the Slann like?

Sir Didymus
30-01-2014, 08:00
They were sort of frog-like ;)

AndrewGPaul
30-01-2014, 08:22
Slann:

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IIRC, they mostly had lasguns, with a fair chance of having distortion cannon as special weapons and a fair chance of displacer fields. Quite likely to be psychic, too.

Poseidal
30-01-2014, 08:27
The standard Tyranid had two wounds; Space Marines were T3.

duffybear1988
30-01-2014, 08:31
Hehehe those Slann are so cute - Now I'm going to have to hunt around for my old figures.

The number of figures needed was kept low because the game was overly complicated and took ages to play.

Ramius4
30-01-2014, 08:33
The standard Tyranid had two wounds; Space Marines were T3.

Most of which is meaningless though, since the game worked so differently.

AndrewGPaul
30-01-2014, 08:50
The basic mechanics are the same, though. Notably, since the bolter and lasgun were and are S4 and S3 respectively, you can see that Space Marines are much more resilient now (well, ever since September 1990, when Space Marines were upgraded to T4) than they used to be.

Cheeslord
30-01-2014, 09:28
Space marines also only got a 4+ save with power armour, and almost all weapons (even the Lasgun) modified this down to 5+. Not sure if their relatively good Cl, Ld, In and Wp made much of a difference (didn't actually play much Rogue Trader so much as read it and paint a few minis - very badly) but they certainly weren't anything like the superhuman demigods they are now in rules terms...

I have a feeling their save became 3+ about the same time they got T4

Mark.

A.T.
30-01-2014, 09:29
Space marines also only got a 4+ save with power armourYou mean there were people who didn't stack flak armour on top for the 3+? :p

Lost Egg
30-01-2014, 09:58
@AndrewGPaul - True, my Scourge Kill Team has just 6 minis in it. :)

I think what really stand out is the versatility of the rules, players can create just about anything; you want an army of stone age humans, you got it. You want Eldar mercenaries raiding a bank, no problem. There are also pages of creatures and plants with full rules and suggestions of how to fit them into your games.

Though I knew of RT I didn't really start playing a lot till RT version 1.5 with the yellow compilation book and the Vehicle Manual. I wanted to pick up RT but was told those were more current. Twas true but I still feel like I missed out on something. Incidentally the old RTB01 marine boxset got you 30 marines for 9.95! Bargain :P

@Slayer-Fan123 - Glad you like it. I will fish out my book later and share some more on the Slann...unfortunately my young son is asleep in the same room as the book and with how he's sleeping at the mo you couldn't pay me to risk waking him :D Well...you might if anyones interested... ;)

It is interesting how much the FW and GW writers and games designers are returning to RT for inspiration nowadays.

Oh yeas, one more fun-fact for you...The main shock troops of the Tyranid forces were Zoats, a slave race they conquered. In battle when the zoats get the munchies they like nothing better than to snack on their Zoatibix! :D

Cheeslord
30-01-2014, 10:54
The original RT galaxy came across as a much more mixed up "starwars" universe full of backwater planets with mixed-race populations and all kinds of comedy shennanigans going on rather the much more segregated totalitarian xenophobic blocks of peoples there are now (Tau try to be an exception, but only because they sometimes lure humans to be second class citizens on their emipre. Its not like they live in harmony with Necrons, orks, Eldar or anyone else...).

A.T.: but ... the models did not have flakk armour on them ... it would feel dirty... :)

Mark.

Lost Egg
30-01-2014, 11:37
@Cheeslord (post 1) - Yeah, you get the feel from RT that marines were more human. Personally I like them better that way, demi-gods are fine but there's a greater sense of risk the more human they are. The visual feel of the whole book is much more gritty than nowadays...a lot of illustrations nowadays are crossing from characterful into caricature, just look at Leman Russ.

We started with this...http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii318/hairynorseman/Space%20Wolves/1stLemanRuss_zpsb6071365.jpg (http://s267.photobucket.com/user/hairynorseman/media/Space%20Wolves/1stLemanRuss_zpsb6071365.jpg.html)...Dark & gritty

Then we got this...http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii318/hairynorseman/Space%20Wolves/LemanRussmk2_zps60006850.jpg (http://s267.photobucket.com/user/hairynorseman/media/Space%20Wolves/LemanRussmk2_zps60006850.jpg.html)...Still looking good and he has his puppies now

Finally we got this...http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii318/hairynorseman/Space%20Wolves/LemanRussmk3_zps88684647.jpg (http://s267.photobucket.com/user/hairynorseman/media/Space%20Wolves/LemanRussmk3_zps88684647.jpg.html)...Part of me likes this but he is a tad OTT, its a wonder he can move under all that armour, pelts and whatnot. Those wolves are massive, more lion than wolf.

I don't think I've seen marines in camo, apart from scouts, since the days of RT.

@Cheeslord (post 2) - There are also a load of little explanations at the back of the book, covering all sorts of subjects, there get across the whole futuristic dark ages vibe much better than a lot of fluff nowadays...the whole book does really.

Yeah, the whole these aliens live here and those there thing feels odd nowadays but the older descriptions of the galaxy and just how spread out everything is were better in the past partly, because the rules allowed you to reflect that without having to come up with loads of player written stuff which a lot of pick-up gamers would raise an eyebrow at. You really get the feeling that calling a massive expanse of the galaxy Imperial Space is a joke, its riddled with numberless alien races and suffers from crippling disillusionment and rebellion.

Poseidal
30-01-2014, 11:48
Space marines also only got a 4+ save with power armour, and almost all weapons (even the Lasgun) modified this down to 5+. Not sure if their relatively good Cl, Ld, In and Wp made much of a difference (didn't actually play much Rogue Trader so much as read it and paint a few minis - very badly) but they certainly weren't anything like the superhuman demigods they are now in rules terms...

I have a feeling their save became 3+ about the same time they got T4

Mark.
It went to 3+ in 2nd edition. IIRC the article when they went up to T4 didn't change the save.

Some Craftworld Eldar Aspects had 3+ saves naturally before 2nd edition in Aspect Armour, though they couldn't change their gear to stack power armour with flak for 3+ so just got it in base Aspect Armour. In 2nd ed, I think units lost the ability to stack armour, so Power Armour became a natural 3+.

Commotionpotion
30-01-2014, 12:20
As for Rogue Trader's complexity, you've got to remember that it was at heart more of a 3D roleplay game than a battle game (they even recommended you have a GM!) - if you do attempt to play it, treat it like Necromunda more than actual 40K and you'll have a blast (although watch out for the psychic powers - those things are mean! And vehicles, even small ones, can be very tough).

What you'll find as well is that the book is littered with loads of tongue-in-cheek jokes and references, like the one you picked out about the Space Wolves and their hereditary commanders' title 'Lord Lucan'. That's a reference to this bloke, who was still quite notorious at the time of writing:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/12/10/article-2521232-01AC3B740000044D-562_306x423.jpg

Enjoy your read - if nothing else it's a fascinating insight into the beginnings of 40K, and in many ways I still prefer the imagery and tone of the universe then to what it became (when I played Inquisitor, all my groups' adventures essentially used the RT interpretation of the galaxy as their basis).

Also, make sure you have a good read of the game scenario and sub-plot hooks in the 'Advanced Gamer' section ;)

AndrewGPaul
30-01-2014, 15:56
... the Space Wolves and their hereditary commanders' title 'Lord Lucan'. That's a reference to this bloke, who was still quite notorious at the time of writing:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/12/10/article-2521232-01AC3B740000044D-562_306x423.jpg

Yes, an entire army created and described, purely for a cheap pun. :)

You know, 40k can still be like that. The blame for it being otherwise lies firmly at the feet of the players. They're the ones who obsess about "correct" colour schemes, "fluffy units", canon and all that nonsense. GW don't care if you want to have female Space Marines, Chaos Tau or the second Legion at the Siege of Earth. It's the people on forums who'll foam at the mouth and call you all sorts of names. :)

aim
30-01-2014, 16:51
Yes, an entire army created and described, purely for a cheap pun. :)

You know, 40k can still be like that. The blame for it being otherwise lies firmly at the feet of the players. They're the ones who obsess about "correct" colour schemes, "fluffy units", canon and all that nonsense. GW don't care if you want to have female Space Marines, Chaos Tau or the second Legion at the Siege of Earth. It's the people on forums who'll foam at the mouth and call you all sorts of names. :)

QFT. Games Workshop actively encourage you to do stuff like that all the time. Its crazies on forums that call you worse than muck for not treating it as srsbsnss

Griefbringer
30-01-2014, 18:46
IIRC the article when they went up to T4 didn't change the save.


Curiously enough, it also did not change their point costs at the time - it took two more years until WD introduced revised point costs for space marines to reflect the extra toughness and other goodies they had received in WD129 (which BTW also introduced overwatch to the game).

Slayer-Fan123
30-01-2014, 18:48
@Slayer-Fan123 - Glad you like it. I will fish out my book later and share some more on the Slann...unfortunately my young son is asleep in the same room as the book and with how he's sleeping at the mo you couldn't pay me to risk waking him :D Well...you might if anyones interested... ;)

Cool stuff. It'd be interesting to see how their rules hold up and such.

InstantKarma
30-01-2014, 18:53
Yes, an entire army created and described, purely for a cheap pun. :)

You know, 40k can still be like that. The blame for it being otherwise lies firmly at the feet of the players. They're the ones who obsess about "correct" colour schemes, "fluffy units", canon and all that nonsense. GW don't care if you want to have female Space Marines, Chaos Tau or the second Legion at the Siege of Earth. It's the people on forums who'll foam at the mouth and call you all sorts of names. :)

*standing ovation*

I didn't start playing until 1995, so well into 2nd Edition. RT fascinates me. I'd love to find a copy of it!

Kaiserdean
30-01-2014, 19:41
Wow, this takes me back!

I wish I had hung onto my old books. There was some really good fluff in the old days...

dangerboyjim
30-01-2014, 19:42
I've got a copy upstairs somewhere.

The fluff is radically different, marines are pretty much ordinary human soldiers, they got paid extra for being the first in the breach of a boarding action, and painted things like 'Suck this' on their weapons.

Orks and Humans co-existed sort of peacefully, they were kind of like the guys guarding Jabba's palace, rather than genetically engineered super fungus.

The rules go into extensive detail about some things, like vehicle damage, you just couldn't finish a 2000pt game in todays terms using the rules it would go on forever...

Fun read though, worth tracking down as some ideas are coming back into vogue again.

Sir Didymus
30-01-2014, 20:39
Its quite fun looking at how the game developed.

It began as a set of detailed combat rules to sell a very limited number of miniatures, and had rules for loads of player creativity and scratchbuilds.

With more and more miniatures available, the game scaled up and rules were tightened, and the DIY rules were phased out.

And with the release of each new mini, the rules seems to be dumbed further down to incorporate the new minis ...

Makes me sort of sad :p

Griefbringer
30-01-2014, 20:59
I
The rules go into extensive detail about some things, like vehicle damage, you just couldn't finish a 2000pt game in todays terms using the rules it would go on forever...

Actually, there were several vehicle damage systems. The one in the basic rulebook is pretty straightforward, but there was a more complex version included in WD and later on included in the red compendium (featuring 36 possible critical damage results, and there were different versions for regular vehicles, dreadnoughts and robots).

And as if that was not enough, a couple of years later there was again a totally revamped vehicle system introduced in WD, with datafaxes and targeting grids. You would actually need a side silhouette of a vehicle and a grid printed on transparent plastic to determine what part you would be hitting. These were later integrated in the briefly lived Vehicle Manual.

Of course 2nd edition featured yet another set of vehicle rules, dispensing with the targeting matrix and replacing it with regular rolls for hitting and hit location, but keeping armour penetration system that was quite similar to the late RT armour penetration system.

Lost Egg
30-01-2014, 21:15
You know, 40k can still be like that. The blame for it being otherwise lies firmly at the feet of the players. They're the ones who obsess about "correct" colour schemes, "fluffy units", canon and all that nonsense. GW don't care if you want to have female Space Marines, Chaos Tau or the second Legion at the Siege of Earth. It's the people on forums who'll foam at the mouth and call you all sorts of names. :)

I'm not sure thats entirely true, it depends on your local players. Some of the guys down my LGC embrace new ideas while others prefer to stick rigidly to official rules. At the same time I think GW has its focus on competitive & tournament play, their whole business model is to essentially sell imbalanced armies. Each new army is designed to be out of balance with those that came before it, this drives players to adapt their tactics and so buy minis to counter the new threat. When Tau were released the first time, I saw a brief from GW HQ detailing how they expected players to react to the new race and suggested possible minis to push for sales.

I'm sure many people play pick up games (unplanned with regards to the mission or their opponent) and so official rules are needed to ensure 'balance' and for people to expect some of the crazy rules that pop up. The RT game is more about scenarios and story-driven games rather than random missions.


Personally, from my recollections of the various editions I think 2nd got it about right with regards to detail, modern games have too many minis and not enough detail for me. Still, the freedom in the rules for RT is still very appealing.

silentsmoke
30-01-2014, 21:49
After many, many years gaming I have the RT book and all the other books in that era. Would be great to meet a fellow gamer who'd want to play it. Same goes for second edition and the good old vehicle templates!

Abaraxas
30-01-2014, 21:52
After many, many years gaming I have the RT book and all the other books in that era. Would be great to meet a fellow gamer who'd want to play it. Same goes for second edition and the good old vehicle templates!

I'm sure somebody here http://forum.oldhammer.org.uk/ would be happy to oblige.

leopard
30-01-2014, 21:57
Have the softcover version of RT around here somewhere, wish I still had the models.

The expansions made it a different game, but take just that book, a small number of models and a mission and its a lot of fun, mad but fun.

Vehicle rules were a bit complex but at the same time a damn sight better than 5th edition (not played 6th), weapons that do multiple wounds, armour save modifiers, harder to hit a model at longer ranges.. survive by not being hit, armour really is a last chance to save, not something you depend on..

Fugazi
31-01-2014, 02:02
It's hard to really characterize RT as a whole because, as others have said, it underwent drastic changes during its lifetime. It began as a kind of tabletop skirmish/RPG hybrid and, as supplemental material in WD and books were cranked out, evolved rather quickly into something closer to a regular tabletop wargame, before 2nd edition put things in some semblance of order.

I liked the 2000AD (oppressive nightmarish future with wacky laughs) tone to it, and absolutely loved the artwork and in-jokes. In some ways, you can't really "get" RT without having a little background of Thatcherian England of the 80s.

The rules were playable, but I have always felt you needed to house-rule things to make the most out of it.

Horus38
31-01-2014, 02:16
Its quite fun looking at how the game developed.

It began as a set of detailed combat rules to sell a very limited number of miniatures, and had rules for loads of player creativity and scratchbuilds.

With more and more miniatures available, the game scaled up and rules were tightened, and the DIY rules were phased out.

And with the release of each new mini, the rules seems to be dumbed further down to incorporate the new minis ...

Makes me sort of sad :p

I came in at the end of 2nd edition and love looking back at the progression of the older material but hellz no would I want them to bring back that DIY stuff as part of the core game. Those systems were beyond broken.

Lost Egg
31-01-2014, 06:49
Have the softcover version of RT around here somewhere, wish I still had the models.

Yeah, I'd love to have a few boxes of the old marines, orks, squats and whatnot. I used to have a couple of boxes of squats ages ago but traded that army for...something, can't remember what now. Still don't get why they dropped them.


The expansions made it a different game, but take just that book, a small number of models and a mission and its a lot of fun, mad but fun.


I think the same can be said for 2nd edition too, though I'd lament the loss of Exodites :)

AndrewGPaul
31-01-2014, 14:05
I'm not sure thats entirely true, it depends on your local players. Some of the guys down my LGC embrace new ideas while others prefer to stick rigidly to official rules. At the same time I think GW has its focus on competitive & tournament play, their whole business model is to essentially sell imbalanced armies. Each new army is designed to be out of balance with those that came before it, this drives players to adapt their tactics and so buy minis to counter the new threat. When Tau were released the first time, I saw a brief from GW HQ detailing how they expected players to react to the new race and suggested possible minis to push for sales.

I don't think so. The "building a narrative" boxes in the rulebook seem like clear evidence to me that the writer's aren't interested in "competitive play". The release of Apocalypse and Escalation, and all the dataslates simply adds to that. To me, they're writing a game that you can use to fight out your stories and ideas. They're not interested in "who's better at 40k?"; they're all about "what would happen if these Space Marine squads get jumped by Dark Eldar in this swamp?"

The dataslates are either introducing more thematic elements (Tyranid Vanguard swarms, Tyrannic War veterans, Cypher) or giving you an excuse to buy that one big, cool model you like the look of, but don't fancy starting an entire new army for. Of course they're "to sell more models", but that's a good thing for them and for us.*

*"us" being myself and everyone I know that plays 40k.


I came in at the end of 2nd edition and love looking back at the progression of the older material but hellz no would I want them to bring back that DIY stuff as part of the core game. Those systems were beyond broken.

They were expecting the player base to exercise some restraint and common courtesy, assuming the style of play that the rules are written for (see above). Sadly, the player base as a whole couldn't or wouldn't restrain themselves and took everything as an excuse to turn it into a cutthroat competition - all the while complaining that it was poorly designed for competitive games. :)

By the way, WD 129 wasn't the first introduction ov overwatch fire; that was in a Q&A article in WD 11-something, which also had a discussion of the small-unit tactics involved in house-to-house fighting.

I've built up a good few RT forces over the years (ironically after the end of Rogue Trader itself :) ); RTB01 Marines, the Space Ork Raiders, Eldar Harlequins, a selection of Genestealer cultists and some early-90s Adeptus Arbites. I really should get them painted, and make some terrain out of plant pots, drainpipes and old deodorant bottles. :)

I'm also planning on writing up rules for the Last Chancers 13th penal legion for Kill Team. They don't fit any unit entries in Codex: Imperial Guard, but that just means I can throw the Codex away and write up my own ideas. ;)

insectum7
31-01-2014, 17:36
I just gots me an RT Era Land Raider off of the electronic-bay! I'm looking forward to restoring it to it's old-school glory.

My friends and I probably have around 40-50 RTB01's and some other classics lying around, including the terminators from the box set that included a Terminator Captain and Librarian as well. It's conceivable that we could build a modern size 1500-1750 point army out if them, given the time. To be honest, it's probably a real possibility.

Griefbringer
31-01-2014, 18:44
I really should get them painted, and make some terrain out of plant pots, drainpipes and old deodorant bottles. :)


That reminds me of the article on building a grav attack vehicle out of an empty deodorant container.

And as if that was not enough, WD later on featured an article on building your own cardboard Baneblade.

Flame Boy
31-01-2014, 20:48
That reminds me of the article on building a grav attack vehicle out of an empty deodorant container.

And as if that was not enough, WD later on featured an article on building your own cardboard Baneblade.

You can't really call it heavy support when it's made out of cardboard.* :p

Joking aside, I always thought the Baneblade was introduced into 40k in 2nd edition. I remember the exciting rumours in the classroom that some American company built the Baneblade and even Titans in 40k scale. Nah, it's never mentioned in White Dwarf, they would be insane to make models that big! It was a strange world before the internet and Forge World. Those Armourcast models on Google are kinda cool.

*Yes, I know, force org chart joke on a pre-3rd edition games system. Just humour me. :D

AndrewGPaul
31-01-2014, 20:53
I built one once. First game I used it, it got blown away on turn two by Wraithguard. :(

AndrewGPaul
31-01-2014, 21:01
Orks and Humans co-existed sort of peacefully, ...

Of course they did. :)

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leopard
31-01-2014, 21:36
Cardboard baneblade was in the RT era, data card for it and rules in WD, along with the templates and how to build it.

tried to make one, failed, tried to cheat at making one, failed at that, then gave up.

Loved the RT background, agree I think you need to understand the UK in the 1980's to 'get' much of the humour, especially the way the orks started out

Fugazi
31-01-2014, 22:13
especially the way the orks started out
That's one of the big 3 changes that I miss from RT days: squats, beastmen, and the original space orks.

Shiodome
31-01-2014, 22:32
my memories of RT are of it being impenetrable garbage to be honest.

Voss
31-01-2014, 22:43
I've got a copy upstairs somewhere.

The fluff is radically different, marines are pretty much ordinary human soldiers, they got paid extra for being the first in the breach of a boarding action, and painted things like 'Suck this' on their weapons.

Orks and Humans co-existed sort of peacefully, they were kind of like the guys guarding Jabba's palace, rather than genetically engineered super fungus.

The rules go into extensive detail about some things, like vehicle damage, you just couldn't finish a 2000pt game in todays terms using the rules it would go on forever...

I suppose you it depends what you mean by 'in today's terms.' Point costs were higher then, with tactical squads running at 270+ points, a squad of 8 bloodletters at 600 points, and bloodthirsters at 1250, rhinos at 370 and land raiders at 750. So a 2000 point game was often 4-5 squads, several characters and a vehicle or two.

Lost Egg
01-02-2014, 06:48
A good size game really, especially with most squads of around 6 models each.

Griefbringer
01-02-2014, 08:56
Cardboard baneblade was in the RT era, data card for it and rules in WD, along with the templates and how to build it.


More specifically in WD132. And it was a bit smaller than the current version of Baneblade, and slightly differently armed.

Around WD136 or so there were also templates for making a relatively simple ork vehicle out of cardboard.

H3L!X
01-02-2014, 10:23
Vehicle rules were a bit complex but at the same time a damn sight better than 5th edition (not played 6th), weapons that do multiple wounds, armour save modifiers, harder to hit a model at longer ranges.. survive by not being hit, armour really is a last chance to save, not something you depend on..

I would love to have modifiers! It sounds so much more realistic and thus fun! Even though i first startet in 5th and don't have an idea how it is in practice.

Anyone interested in writing a modern rules set with modifiers? ;)


Gesendet von meinem GT-I9000 mit Tapatalk 2

Asdrubael108
01-02-2014, 10:26
Yeah have to agree with H3L!X. Modifiers would be much better, the current way I think just sucks. I hate the fact that a bisic bolter can kill a WRAITHBONE warwalker. In the fluff those things take lascannons to the face! And survive!

Harwammer
01-02-2014, 11:08
Around WD136 or so there were also templates for making a relatively simple ork vehicle out of cardboard.

The Gobsmasha. Looks like a child's toy. Has a cult following. I thought they looked stupid in epic. Somehow, here are a lot of cool scratch builds based on the gobsmasha concept. I've grown kind of fond of them now!

AndrewGPaul
01-02-2014, 12:18
There was also a resin kit available briefly in GW stores. The original card modelling article suggested using coffee jar lids for the wheels, but my parents didn't drink coffee quickly enough.

That same article also had templates to build most of the other Epic Ork battlewagons, too.

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Griefbringer
01-02-2014, 12:46
Thanks for that Gobsmasha picture. Makes me wonder where the ork crew actually stored the ammo for that gun.

Speaking of scratch-built ork vehicles, WD 152 featured a picture of an impressive scratch-built Goff battle fortress, but did not get into details about construction.

H3L!X
01-02-2014, 12:55
What is the Refractor Field Eldar were carrying?

Griefbringer
01-02-2014, 12:57
Refractor field was a protective power field that provided an unmodified 5+ armour save on top of regular armour save. It is still around in the game these days.

leopard
01-02-2014, 14:41
The two RT era ork books were wonderful, the writers of the current army books could learn a lot from them - not for rules etc which were a tangled mess but for the feel of the thing, the short paragraph of two stories that littered it with a few a couple of pages, really set the scene in a way the current books don't.

RT on its own could be anything, it needed some sense and ideally a GM to control it, the expansions brought the army lists in which added a measure of sense.

As for small armies, I think the smallest I ever saw was a Grey Knights terminator force, one squad of five plus a captain. six models, 1,500 points or so. On an open field they were laserbait, but give them some semi dense terrain or say a building to fight in and by gork they were worth the points.

Thats another thing... RT had a sensible way of handling buildings, as for that matter did WHFB 3rd around the same time.. How can GW take that which works and so utterly ruin it?

Anyone else ever try the suggestion in the Siege book? you know running a 40k force against a fantasy one ;-)

leopard
01-02-2014, 14:43
If you fancy actually running RT a good way of starting it is to draw up some building templates on 1" squared paper (you don't use the square in the game, just makes drawing it a lot easier), and take a small squad of at most ten marines and try to clear out a building infested with orks, Orks have the numbers but the confined space makes it hard to use them.

Played "Space Hulk" using the 40k rules a few times, was a much better game for it.

Samsonov
01-02-2014, 15:06
Rather than 1"squared paper, you could use rpg maps from rpgnow or wargamesvault, plenty of nice paper maps to print out for a low price.

I'm tempted to have a go with some small scale rogue trader combat, probably a squad of marines vs some pig iron mutants. Is the book with the crimson fists on it all that is required? If so, how much does it differ to 2nd ed rules wise? Also, I'd be tempted to give it a go using the advanced space crusade rules instead. Any thoughts?

leopard
01-02-2014, 15:21
ASC rules work ok, though its best to add a maximum range to the grenades..

Printed maps are better than hand draw for sure, but its easy to draw something :-)

It was quite different from 2nd edition, the game was much more focused on individual models than squads, they just had to hand around together but nothing actually stopped you having squads of one model. Grenades were weapon you threw at people.

Took longer to play with larger numbers of models but with smaller numbers it worked fine.

Poncho160
01-02-2014, 15:26
Love the rouge trader book and still read it occasionally. The space wolf base double page spread is great.

What gets me though is that, apart from a few minor changes, most of the fluff in that book still works, it is the player base that limits itself on how armies look and their composition.

With the imperium numbering around 1m worlds, absolutely anything goes, when it comes to army or character creation. Look at the variation our modern world has between all our different cultures. Now times that by 1 million and you soon realise that nearly anything goes and could happen.

I once read an article explaining how Star Wars and Star Trek could exist in the same galaxy, it went onto explain that due to the size of a galaxy, it would be highly unlikely that either of the fictional stories would ever meet.

Now if you take this into consideration, you can see that literally anything can go in the 40k galaxy, it is literally all down to the players imagination, something the rouge trader book put across perfectly. This sense of imaginary freedom is somewhat missing from today's 40k.

AndrewGPaul
01-02-2014, 16:10
This sense of imaginary freedom is somewhat missing from today's gamers.

Sorry, had to amend your final sentence. :) It's not a phenomenon exclusive to 40k - or even GW games, for that matter.

cornonthecob
01-02-2014, 16:35
Due to the ever growing tourney mind set.

Harwammer
01-02-2014, 17:02
Thanks for that Gobsmasha picture. Makes me wonder where the ork crew actually stored the ammo for that gun.

Speaking of scratch-built ork vehicles, WD 152 featured a picture of an impressive scratch-built Goff battle fortress, but did not get into details about construction.

The battlefortress was one of the templates provided in the Gobsmasha issue (but, of course, with more details added). I believe it featured as a picture in one of the 2nd ed books in the starter box?