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romizzi
01-02-2014, 09:31
Apologies if this has been talked about already, please redirect me if it has.
I wanted to get something off my chest that has been a minor annoyance for me, and wanted to hear other people views on the matter.

I think the rules and fluff of certain SM chapters overshadows the use of other chapters.

I'm of the opinion that each SM chapter (certainly 1st founing) should have a UNIQUE fluff theme and their rules reflect that. Yes, 6th has made leaps in that direction and I applaud it.

An example is salamanders vs Blood Angels. BA have great access to hand flamers and inferno pistols and Baal Predators. It makes the flame and fire specialists look a bit amateur!


Why do Dark angels get a bikes specialists option when White Scars are getting left on the shelf. And what have they got to do with Ravens, and painted black (Ravenwing) surely that nomenclature is reserved for Corax's boys?


Ok, so the fan boys of the offending chapters will hate me, and it is too established for it to ever change - but it does irk me a little because I like to see as much diversity as possible in painting, modelling and gaming - and some chapters that 'do it all' can push other into the cold.

Thoughts?

*Braces for backlash*

Surgency
01-02-2014, 09:43
White Scars don't specialize in bikers, they just make larger use of them than most chapters. They're a mounted force, which means that they ride to battle in a variety of vehicles, including bikes, land raiders, rhinos, etc. They specialize in lighting strikes and mounted assaults.

Raven Guard can't exactly corner the market on the colour black. And its not that much of a stretch to think that there might be a symbol that is repeated multiple times. Like, you know, Iron Hands, and Imperial Fists? I mean, why do Imperial Fists have to copy the hand thing? [/sarcasm off]

And if you must know the truth, Dark Angels were the First Legion. They were riding bikes while the White Scars were just scabs waiting for their turn. They were in the colour black before the Raven Guard were flapping their wings. So why are the Scars and the Raven Guard copying the Dark Angels is the question you should be asking

Camman1984
01-02-2014, 09:48
White scars getting left on the shelf? Not according to the army list threads. They are hugely powerful in this edition and whilst they dont have the fancy toys like the awesome (laughs) landspeeders or the truly amazing (wees a little bit) fighter aircraft, they can run a great bike/rhino rush list.

I do agree though that certain chapters have received way more love than others so you original point is very true. Even in codex space marines there is a big inbalance. Look at what the ultras get compared to the other chapters, seems a bit unfair that they get a super chapter master, librarian, chaplain, tank commander, scout leader and captain, they now also get suped up sternguard in the form of tyranic war veterans.

I think the CT locking of certain things, while necessary to prevent some power builds has really left some chapters out in the cold.

Camman1984
01-02-2014, 09:51
I am wondering though whether marines should argue this point in public, their maybe jealous xenos players looking at our variety books waiting to hurt us :p

Grand Master Azrael
01-02-2014, 09:54
Don't dis DA OR BA

Camman1984
01-02-2014, 10:00
Not to their faces anyway!

Grand Master Azrael
01-02-2014, 10:04
Not to their faces anyway!

Dising people is not nice

Camman1984
01-02-2014, 10:06
Especially when they are acid spitting supermen with fangs and a chainsaw!

Grand Master Azrael
01-02-2014, 10:09
Well, it IS ok to dis those smelly Space Wolves (we Dark Angels don't like them very much)

A.T.
01-02-2014, 11:03
Why do Dark angels get a bikes specialists option when White Scars are getting left on the shelf.The same reason that templars are no better in assault than any other vanilla chapter - it's all one codex, there is no wiggle room for big disadvantages to be added in order to balance out any big advantages.

Lord Damocles
01-02-2014, 11:28
It was stereotyping Chapters as 'the fire Chapter' or 'the bike Chapter' or 'the stealth Chapter' etc. which got us into the mess we're in now, with people unable to see background and theme beyond a series of special rules.

Further pigeonholing the various Marines is neither in line with the actual background, nor the solution to the problem.

T10
01-02-2014, 11:47
White Scars do get A LOT of bikes simply 'cuz they're cheaper. :)

Menthak
01-02-2014, 11:49
Dising people is not nice

I've seen you 'dis' plenty of chapters.

As for the poster, Blood angels get the equipment, the Salamanders get the skill. Dark Angel get the bike specialists, White Scars get the fully mobile chapter. It's like that.

Sgt John Keel
01-02-2014, 15:02
It was stereotyping Chapters as 'the fire Chapter' or 'the bike Chapter' or 'the stealth Chapter' etc. which got us into the mess we're in now, with people unable to see background and theme beyond a series of special rules.

Further pigeonholing the various Marines is neither in line with the actual background, nor the solution to the problem.

I agree. If a person did only one thing all the time, he would surely not be described as having a great personality or character. People and organisations have complexity and nuance, and that is what makes them interesting.

In my mind, it's a bit like there's room for more than one great guitarist in this world (they don't all play the exact same music!).

As for the tabletop, the Codex Astartes is a great fan of not pigeonholing, I've heard.

I'd be really sad if Blood Angels could only have one singular overarching theme. I quite enjoy the mix of vampiric and angelic references, the artisanal bent and the accompanying "artistic madness", the desire to fly, the theme of fighting one's destiny/doom, etc.

Beppo1234
01-02-2014, 15:32
Apologies if this has been talked about already, please redirect me if it has.
I wanted to get something off my chest that has been a minor annoyance for me, and wanted to hear other people views on the matter.

I think the rules and fluff of certain SM chapters overshadows the use of other chapters.

I'm of the opinion that each SM chapter (certainly 1st founing) should have a UNIQUE fluff theme and their rules reflect that. Yes, 6th has made leaps in that direction and I applaud it.

An example is salamanders vs Blood Angels. BA have great access to hand flamers and inferno pistols and Baal Predators. It makes the flame and fire specialists look a bit amateur!


Why do Dark angels get a bikes specialists option when White Scars are getting left on the shelf. And what have they got to do with Ravens, and painted black (Ravenwing) surely that nomenclature is reserved for Corax's boys?


Ok, so the fan boys of the offending chapters will hate me, and it is too established for it to ever change - but it does irk me a little because I like to see as much diversity as possible in painting, modelling and gaming - and some chapters that 'do it all' can push other into the cold.

Thoughts?

*Braces for backlash*

You are confusing First Founding, with the First Four (Ultra, DAs, BAs, Wolves). First Founding is Fluff, First Four is reality. That reality, is that all rules for marines, flow from First Four, not from the fluffy First Founding. This is why things are the way they are.

naloth
01-02-2014, 15:42
You are confusing First Founding, with the First Four (Ultra, DAs, BAs, Wolves). First Founding is Fluff, First Four is reality. That reality, is that all rules for marines, flow from First Four, not from the fluffy First Founding. This is why things are the way they are.

In the beginning Chapter choice was essentially a flavor thing... The original Rogue Trader marines allowed you to could equip them (even modifying stats) pretty much how you wanted. Army lists actually came later as a studio member championed each army and "codified" it progressively arriving at what we have today.

My very first army had gimped halfling/ratlings on hover boards with grav weapons. Oh, how they were hated...

romizzi
01-02-2014, 19:33
Haha, thanks for the replies! Interesting comments.
Rules and fluff wise, concerning overlap, I do appreciate the points made.

what I think I was getting at more, was the decision of choosing a chapter to collect/play.

What are the criteria a new player might consider when selecting a chapter?

For a first timer? Aesthetics is going to be high on the list, colour definitely. Other than shoulder trims etc. most chapters are a single colour for everything except BA and DA.
Perceived Ability on the field of battle. So we're looking at options, war gear and rules. BA and DA excel here too. (Btw, notice I say perceived ability by a new starter, not actual ability.)

I like flamer weapons so I'll go salamanders, but wait, BA get those AND assault as troops AND death company, etc. more options with BA so I'll collect them instead.

the he reason I haven't mentioned SW is that I don't see them 'stealing' a choice from another chapter.

P.S. Please don't get upset, it's not that important to me, just a thought I wanted to discuss to see what other people think :-)

Grndhog89
01-02-2014, 20:18
the reason I haven't mentioned SW is that I don't see them 'stealing' a choice from another chapter.


SW steal. They steal the "feral/savage" theme from White Scars. Both chapters have the aesthetic of wearing lots of furs and strange hairdo's reminiscent of ancient civilizations here on Earth.

The Emperor
01-02-2014, 20:37
Look at what the ultras get compared to the other chapters, seems a bit unfair that they get a super chapter master, librarian, chaplain, tank commander, scout leader and captain, they now also get suped up sternguard in the form of tyranic war veterans.

I'd say Ultramarines actually got the shaft. They used to have their own Codex, but then 3rd edition came around and every other Space Marine Chapter got rolled into one Codex alongside them. That's why they have so many special characters in comparison. And even then they were pretty lackluster in that department (Legion of the Damned were originally considered a "special character" for them). They've since lost Ancient Helveticus and Captain Invictus to make room for special characters from other Chapters.

And Tyrannic War Veterans aren't suped up Sternguard. They're stripped down Sternguard. They're Sternguard without an option for Storm Bolters, Combi-Weapons, Special Weapons, Heavy Weapons, Chainsword/Grav-Pistol/Lightning Claw/Plasma Pistol/Power Weapon/Power Fist upgrades for the Veteran Sergeant, who lose their Dragonfire Bolts/Kraken Bolts/Vengeance Rounds from their Special Ammunition, all in exchange for Preferred Enemy and Zealot when fighting Tyranids, the new retarded stepchild of the 40k universe. That's hardly what anyone would call an improvement.

maze ironheart
01-02-2014, 21:03
Yeah and funny how every space marine player I've faced over the years said my chaos marks were overpowerd and now they have combat tactics that not only have better rules then the marks but cost ziff all.

Grndhog89
01-02-2014, 21:40
Yeah and funny how every space marine player I've faced over the years said my chaos marks were overpowerd and now they have combat tactics that not only have better rules then the marks but cost ziff all.

It just wouldn't be a SM thread without some CSM whine.

You do realize that while SM get chapter tactics built into their cost it is also applied universally to all units with no exceptions. This means many aspects of the chapter tactic are rendered moot and null simply by unit selection. Such as if you have a Raven Guard army and nobody with jump packs you lose out on 'Wings of Deliverance.' Whereas with CSM you can cherry pick which unit gets what kind of bonus. If you want one squad with Mark of Khorne, one with Mark of Nurgle, and another with Mark of Slaanesh you can do that. It allows for optimization on a per unit basis while SM chapter tactics allows for a minor buff that may be taken advantage of at the cost of diluting the effectiveness of other unit selections.

Not only that but CSM marks are still far superior to SM chapter tactics. Yes, while you may have to pay for them there is not a single chapter tactic that offers anything as game changing (mechanically speaking) as +1 toughness. Chaos marks are much more poignant in their effects and it is justified to charge a small premium for opting to take them.

White_13oy
02-02-2014, 03:04
How much are SM now point wise? If the difference is 2 or 3, i'd say that a bargin for atsknf and a small/big bonus built in (some are really good imo.)

Harwammer
02-02-2014, 07:14
Lets not get distracted from the thread at hand, it has nothing to do with the relative cost of CSMs and loyalists.

I think to a degree the Space Wolves might ape the chaos thing, in so far as having space marines with bolters, bolt pistols and CCWs, but i'm not sure if that counts?

MvS
02-02-2014, 10:09
The 'fluff' answers as to why some Chapters get more than others is a little bit thin. The 'truth', as some have alluded to already, is that the Chapters that GW first devised and the GW designers first adopted as their own got the most stuff. Dark Angels had all those terminators and all those bikes just because the games designers that first liked the name and colour scheme built whatever army they wanted and said "this is what Dark Angels are" and then rationalised the imagery to fit with the armies they had already painted and wanted to play with. Hence the current disjoint with the monastic space knights, bikers, terminators who apparently are more monastic-y space knight-y with bikes than any other chapter.

It's sort of been balanced in the imagery over the years and besides, it's far too established to change now without driving far too many fans into terrible angst.

One change I would like to see, though, is that I think all chapters should have all the 'normal' units that are (or should) be basic to Space Marines per se (so all the Legion of the Damned, Centurions, Stormtalons,Storm Ravens and all tanks and so on). Then each chapter should have one or two extra units (Death Company, Thunder Wolves, Tyrannic War Veterans, etc) to give them something unique to their chapter but wish won't over balance the game too drastically, and then rely on Chapter Tactics, force organisation slots and the special rules of the various commanders to do the rest in terms of distinction and flavour.

Losing Command
02-02-2014, 10:25
I'm not shure Blood Angels would agree with all other chapters getting their Baal Predators :rolleyes: Stormravens and stormtalons would make a bit more sense, although I still think those airplanes don't really fit with Space Marines, they have Thunderhawks for that godsdammit ;)
Centurions don't really feel like Blood Angels (can't strap a jump pack on them) or Space wolves to me. Dark Angels might use them, but those guys already have loads of terminator armour and plasmacannons to go with them...

Grav Weapons being main codex only is very silly though.

RanaldLoec
02-02-2014, 12:14
The issue with every SM codex having access to all the units just leaves us with the same army but with marginally different special rules.

The marine army's are far too similar all ready.

I hope we see more variation between the space marine books not less.

Lord Damocles
02-02-2014, 13:45
I'm not shure Blood Angels would agree with all other chapters getting their Baal Predators :rolleyes:
All the other Chapters already have access to the Predator Infernus which sports the flamer turret, and flamer sponsons aren't Baal specific.

The only things unique about the Baal are that it's fast (which makes little sense and needn't be represented with rules) and the Assault Cannon turret.
Given that everyone seems to have worked out how to bolt an Assault Cannon onto Razorbacks, Land Raiders and Stormravens, it shouldn't be all that difficult to do it with a Predator.

Even if the turret couldn't just be copied by everyone else, they could still have acquired their not-Baal Predators from lost weapon caches, as spoils of war, or as gifts (like the Minotaur's Mortis Dreadnought in IA12).

Beppo1234
02-02-2014, 14:36
I hope we see more variation between the space marine books not less.

to a point... at this point in time, I think the marine armies are pretty well differentiated. I think pushing them further divergent would start more issues than it would solve.

bittick
02-02-2014, 18:30
What we're seeing is the interaction between economic decisions, game decisions, fluff history, and real world history.

Economic decisions are where GW says "we need a new model, so let's produce Centurion suits with this new book". These tend to feel like the most forced aspect of the game. Units that never existed before get pushed into the background just so sales will go up. Sadly there's no answer to this without GW changing their business model.

Game decisions are the opposite of that. These are decisions about how to best balance two armies against one another. How do you differentiate between Dark Angels and Ultramarines, on the tabletop? Who gets skilled rider, who gets cheaper plasma guns, who gets the Stormraven? We get modifications to the rules in order to have a different play experience with each army. Background-wise, the Blood Angels have no more assault squads than a regular chapter, yet they get rules that let them take more of them than normal. The Dark Angels probably have some special Sternguard ammo somewhere in the Rock, and they probably have some Stormtalon gunships as well. They just don't get rules for them because of a game decision to make them distinct from Ultras on the tabletop.

Fluff history is the stuff you read about in the books. Real world history is how the armies developed over time from the late 80s til now. And the Big 4 are always going to get the most stuff and the most attention because they were the original armies that the guys in the company owned way back when. I'm pretty sure the Ravenwing came before it was decided that the White Scars rode bikes a lot.

Eldartank
02-02-2014, 22:09
If you like the apparent disparity of Chapter-specific abilities now, you would really like 3rd Edition. The "Vanilla" Space Marine Codex was among the first codices to be released with 3rd Edition. In that codex, Ultramarines and the various non-specific Chapters were okay. Then came Blood Angels (remember the 1st turn rhino-rush & assault spam?), Space Wolves, and other such Chapter-specific codices, which were so powerful that it was almost pointless to play Ultramarines or those other Chapters. Then came the codices for other armies (Eldar, Tyranids, Orks, etc.). Those armies, along with specialist Space Marines such as Blood Angels and Space Wolves, rendered the standard Space Marines utterly weak and impotent by comparison.

MvS
03-02-2014, 00:39
I'm not shure Blood Angels would agree with all other chapters getting their Baal Predators

Perhaps not, but there's no pressing reason to my mind why they shouldn't. The Baal Predator doesn't 'make' the Blood Angels what they are, although I suppose it probably could be ring-fenced as one of the unique units I described. It just seems a bit of a shallow rationale.


Stormravens and stormtalons would make a bit more sense, although I still think those airplanes don't really fit with Space Marines, they have Thunderhawks for that godsdammit

Perhaps so, but while they exist there should be parity.


Centurions don't really feel like Blood Angels (can't strap a jump pack on them) or Space wolves to me.

But, for me, that's artificial. Both Chapters have Dreadnoughts, Terminators, Devastators (or equivalent) and tanks. There's nothing so intrinsically and drastically different about Centurions that they don't fit with Space Wolves or Blood Angels but do with Black Templars, Raven Guard and White Scars.


Grav Weapons being main codex only is very silly though.

Indeed.


The issue with every SM codex having access to all the units just leaves us with the same army but with marginally different special rules.

Not really. Chapter Tactics, special character rule 'extras', a few unique units and some tweaks on the force organisation charts - so same units but different availability from Chapter to Chapter in different 'slots' - all make for an interesting and different army.


The marine army's are far too similar all ready.

Well... within the imagery there's the Codex and the fact that pretty much all Chapters adhere to it - and those that don't still have profound structural similarities from the days of the Astartes Legions. Outside of the imagery, I would tink it's us, the players, who choose an army, force organisation and way of playing because we like their imagery. If someone wants to play Blood Angels like Utramarines or vice-versa, just because there would be more parity between their Codices (especially in terms of points costs), well, that's their somewhat confusing choice.


I hope we see more variation between the space marine books not less.

I can understand why but we don't need to be spoon fed extreme difference for it own sake - particularly when it often seems shoehorned in (Blood Angels) or little bit cartoony (Wolf Riders).

As ever, your mileage may vary.

Hengist
03-02-2014, 00:46
Why do Dark angels get a bikes specialists option when White Scars are getting left on the shelf. And what have they got to do with Ravens, and painted black (Ravenwing) surely that nomenclature is reserved for Corax's boys?

You need to understand, as others have already alluded to, that the complete 40k universe background didn't just spring into being one day; rather it's what's called an unfolding text.

To use your complaint above as an example, at the time the Dark Angels' 'Ravenwing' second company first appeared in the fluff (in the rules for Epic Space Marine 1st ed, White Dward 120-something, 1989), the Raven Guard chapter/legion (the terms were still used somewhat interchangeably at the time) hadn't even been named in the fluff. If there's a problem of demarcation, then address your complaint to whoever couldn't come up with a more original name than 'Raven Guard' when they were filling out the first founding to eighteen.

naloth
03-02-2014, 00:50
YTo use your complaint above as an example, at the time the Dark Angels' 'Ravenwing' second company first appeared in the fluff (in the rules for Epic Space Marine 1st ed, White Dward 120-something, 1989), the Raven Guard chapter/legion (the terms were still used somewhat interchangeably at the time) hadn't even been named in the fluff. If there's a problem of demarcation, then address your complaint to whoever couldn't come up with a more original name than 'Raven Guard' when they were filling out the first founding to eighteen.

The Raven Guard were one of the original founding chapters... While it didn't have much background, it (and the Primarch) was named in Rogue Trader if not earlier.

bittick
03-02-2014, 04:09
The Raven Guard were one of the original founding chapters... While it didn't have much background, it (and the Primarch) was named in Rogue Trader if not earlier.

I don't see them in my copy of Rogue Trader.

T10
03-02-2014, 09:40
The issue with every SM codex having access to all the units just leaves us with the same army but with marginally different special rules.

The marine army's are far too similar all ready.

I hope we see more variation between the space marine books not less.

The thing people seem to forget is these are codex-adherent chapters. Even though they have different styles or preferences, they are all capable of fielding the same forces. White Scars Devastators, Iron Hands Assault Marines, Salamanders with heavy bolters instead of flamers, Raven Guard Predator tanks. These are all available and useful tools even if they are units that don't come with a topping of Chapter Tactics bonus rules.

-T10

Hengist
03-02-2014, 11:09
The Raven Guard were one of the original founding chapters... While it didn't have much background, it (and the Primarch) was named in Rogue Trader if not earlier.

No they weren't. Nor were foundings, nor were Primarchs. Read the bloody book.

MvS
03-02-2014, 12:48
The thing people seem to forget is these are codex-adherent chapters. Even though they have different styles or preferences, they are all capable of fielding the same forces.

Indeed, and with the exception of the Wolves, all the loyalist First Founding Chapters are largely Codex-adherent, albeit with their own twists and flavours thrown in. In fact the majority of the Second Founding Chapter are too, even the Black Templars are now depicted as being Codex adherent - or at least certainly more so than the Blood Angels. It's pretty much just the Emperor's Champion and the Crusader Squads that seem to set them apart.

As for the Wolves, their structure may be different but I don't really see why this fact makes them suddenly unable and unwilling to use certain aircraft, tanks or other weapon systems. They are still the inheritor of an Astartes Legion, with all that this should imply.

I feel much the same about other factions too. I love diversity and would like to see as many 'flavour' options as possible for, say, the Eldar. But the emphasis shouldn't be on sayinh "this Craftworld can't ever field this sort of grav-tank" or whatever.

Apply bonuses to 'reward' certain force choices and tactics in order to encourage themed games; restrict the quantity of certain unit types from one force to another; allow a few extra very-specific units to each different force in order to give them something visually 'special. Don't just splash together a mish-mash of ideas and restrictions for the sake of creating something ham-fistedly 'different' and powerful.

As an example (and I realise my view isn't necessarily the most popular one in this matter) can be found in the Blood Angels Codex. There's just too much emphasis on special units that it seems to dissolve the point of some of the more established units.

So we have the first company of Terminators and other sorts of veterans. Fine. They are the elite of the Chapter. All very good.

Then we have Honour Guards. The most elite of the elite. Okay, these exist in many Chapters and represent those who have been hand-picked from the ranks to serve and protect the Chapter Master or other extremely senior lords. They are extranumerary to the 1,000 men under arms aspect of the Chapter (much like Techmarines, Chaplains and other HQ units and formations). This still makes sense because they aren't a function of command and control during a battle so much as the small-numbered, hand-picked, best-of-the-best-of-the-best personal bodyguards of the Chapter Master.

Then we have the Sanguinary guard. The most elite of the elite of the elite. Who do even more elite honour-guarding than the honour guard. Or are they still honour guards? Because these super elite are also like a First Company plus 1!!

Except they have the same statline as any other veteran and don't have the versatility of Honour Guards or Vanguard Veterans. And they appear in the already over-crowded Elites section.

My preference would have been to see Honour Guards dropped altogether and the Sanguinary Guard taking up their space, both in terms of imagery and game force organisation. They could still have rules and equipment that encourage a particular sort of play/deployment, although I think a little bit more diversity in equipment option alongside their ritual blades would have been logical. For me it would make the Sanguinary Guard more relevant if they were the defacto honour guardians of the Blood Angels' Masters since the time of Sanguinus, protecting his body during battles but also providing a shining example of hope to the honour and purity of an otherwise gene/soul-tainted Chapter. Command Squads could have been included in the army-list as normal as HQ support for 'lesser' commanders.

Injecting this unique unit into an already over-crowded army-list isn't an example of the parity I was talking about. Mashing every unit in every Codex on top of other unique units is just clumsy. The Grey Knights Codex is even worse for this sort of army-list and imagery and army-list clutter.

Finding a way of tweaking and adapting units so that we can see their common ancestors, recognise their unique significance within the imagery and appreciate their unique game role should surely be the goal. Hence I say I would like all forces to have all the tanks and aircraft and battlesuits in Codex Space Marines, and indeed equivalents of all the standard units in that Codex, but with narrative and stylistic tweaks to their imagery, deployment, rules and gameplay - along with a few other unique units that serve a unique role and don't simply double-up the roles of existing units, both in the imagery and gameplay.

ashc
03-02-2014, 13:04
One of my biggest problems with the likes of the old Index Astartes articles was that the playerbase became rather indoctrinated in to the idea that restrictions = thematic.

Sir Didymus
03-02-2014, 14:23
One of my biggest problem with 40K is its player base - especially those who adhere to 'canon' and screaming about WYSIWhatever..

I stopped taking in any fluff, when 2nd ed. hit the shelves. I just can't accept the imagery of 10' tall supermen, when models are the size of ordinary infantry guys. I can't accept standardized equipment in an empire spanning countless worlds and a less than ideal way of traveling/communicating. Its just too much lack of consistency.

The game doesn't need specialized rules to differentiate Chapter A and B from C, it just needs proper balancing, so theres a point in getting flamers instead of meltaguns and vice versa, so players a free to be creative with their army instead of just slapping down poorly painted versions of studio armies.

wanderingblade
03-02-2014, 16:09
Not really. Chapter Tactics, special character rule 'extras', a few unique units and some tweaks on the force organisation charts - so same units but different availability from Chapter to Chapter in different 'slots' - all make for an interesting and different army.


This I feel is very true. As seen in the SM codex, the Chapter Tactics have made things very different from Chapter to Chapter. Could you make things more different with more special units, restrictions and what not? Yes, but after a point, what's the point? Do White Scars players feel particularly cheated because they didn't get bike veterans and an extra special Veteran squad? It's not like they're hurting for those things, or the ability to play their army as they wish, or that they didn't know their army wasn't one of the big 4.

It would be kinda nice to see GW go to town on the big four. It would be even nicer to see everyone else's factions given the sort of love SM got with just the Chapter tactics in their codex...

Sgt John Keel
03-02-2014, 16:14
Then we have Honour Guards. The most elite of the elite. Okay, these exist in many Chapters and represent those who have been hand-picked from the ranks to serve and protect the Chapter Master or other extremely senior lords. They are extranumerary to the 1,000 men under arms aspect of the Chapter (much like Techmarines, Chaplains and other HQ units and formations). This still makes sense because they aren't a function of command and control during a battle so much as the small-numbered, hand-picked, best-of-the-best-of-the-best personal bodyguards of the Chapter Master.

Blood Angel Honour Guard is not the same as the Honour Guard in Codex Space Marines, and there's little evidence that they are more elite than other elite units, at least significantly so (indeed the background suggests that being a Guardian is a fast track path to the First Company, indicating that they might even be less elite). The two significant differences from Codex Command Squads are that they get jump packs instead of bikes and that they are available to every HQ character instead of just Company Commanders and Chapter Masters. There's also little evidence that they are supernumerary.

The background page in C:BA also seem to indicate that Honour Guard may be used in an advisory capacity.


Except they have the same statline as any other veteran and don't have the versatility of Honour Guards or Vanguard Veterans. And they appear in the already over-crowded Elites section.

Veteran Marines used to be identical to normal Marines but with Ld9 instead of Ld8. The statline has limited granularity, and sometimes the extra eliteness don't justify an extra pip. However, I really don't think Death Company should be WS5 when the Elite units are not.


My preference would have been to see Honour Guards dropped altogether and the Sanguinary Guard taking up their space, both in terms of imagery and game force organisation. They could still have rules and equipment that encourage a particular sort of play/deployment, although I think a little bit more diversity in equipment option alongside their ritual blades would have been logical. For me it would make the Sanguinary Guard more relevant if they were the defacto honour guardians of the Blood Angels' Masters since the time of Sanguinus, protecting his body during battles but also providing a shining example of hope to the honour and purity of an otherwise gene/soul-tainted Chapter. Command Squads could have been included in the army-list as normal as HQ support for 'lesser' commanders.

So essentially you want to give the Sanguinary Guard more options, and remove jump packs and the fancy name from the Honour Guard but give them bikes instead? Seems a bit pointless to me.

naloth
03-02-2014, 16:59
No they weren't. Nor were foundings, nor were Primarchs. Read the bloody book.

I was looking for it... Around here somewhere. I thought the chart of founding chapters was there but perhaps that did not get added until the Ultramarines codex came out in 2e. I was thinking the compendium (red book) had the Raven Guard, but they had the Raptor Guard presented instead.

Leftenant Gashrog
03-02-2014, 21:58
The Raven Guard were one of the original founding chapters... While it didn't have much background, it (and the Primarch) was named in Rogue Trader if not earlier.

There was no 'earlier', unusually for (then) GW RT just materialized out of the blue. The original RT fluff was that the Emperor was mortally wounded in wars so long ago that even he didn't remember them. When the Horus Heresy was introduced the fluff for the 3 loyalist legions annihilated on Isstvan V was that they were disbanded and their names struck from Imperial records in shame, it wasn't until the 2nd edition core rules that they decided to even it up to 9 loyalists and 9 traitors with two 'unknown' chapters with the Raven Guard name coming out of nowhere, they were never mentioned before.

Oh and Ravenwing are in fact one of the OLDEST bits of fluff in 40k, they were introduced in WD96 a whole of 2 months after RT was released.

MvS
03-02-2014, 23:25
Blood Angel Honour Guard is not the same as the Honour Guard in Codex Space Marines

To a degree, yes. They have the equipment and many of the roles of a command squad. However, I think the choice of title, rather than just calling them 'command squads' has meaning beyond mere style. I think it means something about the nature of the Blood Angels and the honour guards as a formation.


and there's little evidence that they are more elite than other elite units, at least significantly so (indeed the background suggests that being a Guardian is a fast track path to the First Company, indicating that they might even be less elite).

That, I think, is a stretch. They are chosen from any company's "most experienced" warriors. They are also chosen from the first company. To me it seems obvious that they are the hand-picked best (by whatever measure the commander that picks them deems "best") outside of the Sanguinary Guard.

I don't know of an armed forces or government that puts forward their 'less elite' forces to defend their monarchs, presidents, prime-ministers when in dangerous environents. In fact to an honour bound chapter like the Blood Angels I think it would be perceived as insulting if a commander was expected to pick anything less than the best of the best to act has his honour guard. Sanguinary Guard notwithstanding of course (which is, in part, my issue with them).


The two significant differences from Codex Command Squads are that they get jump packs instead of bikes and that they are available to every HQ character instead of just Company Commanders and Chapter Masters.

Yup.


There's also little evidence that they are supernumerary.

There's also little evidence that they aren't. Although perhaps I should have added "seem to be" to my sentence.

Unless the Blood Angels don't mind their companies losing any number of soldiers whenever groups of dignitaries want honour guards I suppose that might be the case. It just seems unlikely given the 'bottom line' victory at all costs nature of the Space Marines that they would think nothing of reducing combat efficiency of companies at random.

I think it more likely that chosen honour guards are treated as losses to their company in terms of manpower, and under ideal circumstances they are replaced if there are enough novices nearing the completion of their training. It's hard to think of an armed forces that doesn't have a dedicated leader-protection unit / regiment that isn't just an ad-hoc "you'll do" affair. I see no reason why this logic wouldn't translate to the 41st millennia and the Space Marines.


The background page in C:BA also seem to indicate that Honour Guard may be used in an advisory capacity.

Much like the Sanguinary Guard.


Remember when Veteran Marines were identical to normal Marines but with Ld9 instead of Ld8? The statline has limited granularity.

It does indeed, but the problem comes when we try to understand rules by imagery. More - it comes when we try to rationalise over-planting and inappropriate pruning when it comes to Codex construction.


So essentially you want to give the Sanguinary Guard more options, and remove jump packs and the fancy name from the Honour Guard but give them bikes instead? Seems to me like it fixes nothing.

Please don't try to reduce and caricature my point. I have stated several times that I'm a fan of difference and tailoring for different Chapters. Just because I didn't stipulate that a Blood Angels command squad should probably have jump packs or whatever else you're trying suggest in an effort to pick holes in what I've said doesn't mean I did suggest that, nor does it negate my general concern.

If you like the Blood Angels as they are, smashing. More strength to you. I don't. I think their army list and newer imagery is ineligant and cluttered with too many pointlessly shoehorned elements that could have been introduced far more smoothely and logically.

Opinions differ.

Sgt John Keel
04-02-2014, 00:50
To a degree, yes. They have the equipment and many of the roles of a command squad. However, I think the choice of title, rather than just calling them 'command squads' has meaning beyond mere style. I think it means something about the nature of the Blood Angels and the honour guards as a formation.

You're probably right, but at the same time I think it seems reasonable to argue that the Codex Command Squad a catch-all term intended to encompass a multitude of traditions. Even if a new Chapter is formed in the A1 mould, over the centuries some kind of organisational culture would evolve that would diverge slightly.


That, I think, is a stretch. They are chosen from any company's "most experienced" warriors. They are also chosen from the first company. To me it seems obvious that they are the hand-picked best (by whatever measure the commander that picks them deems "best") outside of the Sanguinary Guard.

That does not mean they are the elite of the elite. If the career progression (for some) is Company Marine -> Honour Guard -> First Company (and then maybe Honour Guard again), it stands to reason that some First Company Marines are "better" than some Honour Guard and vice versa. I'd call it a wash on aggregate.


I don't know of an armed forces or government that puts forward their 'less elite' forces to defend their monarchs, presidents, prime-ministers when in dangerous environents. In fact to an honour bound chapter like the Blood Angels I think it would be perceived as insulting if a commander was expected to pick anything less than the best of the best to act has his honour guard. Sanguinary Guard notwithstanding of course (which is, in part, my issue with them).

I think this is a confusing comparison. The bodyguards of Heads of State are rarely military units, and the size and actual use of Life Guards/Regiments don't really fit the comparison. As for the underlying point, the background seems to state that Honour Guard squads are often very specialised, so it is reasonable that the best available Marines with a relevant skill-set for the purpose are selected. "Best-of-the-best", to me, indicates that they should excel in every discipline.

A question that comes to mind is how does this selection process differ for Codex Command Squads?


There's also little evidence that they aren't. Although perhaps I should have added "seem to be" to my sentence.

Unless the Blood Angels don't mind their companies losing any number of soldiers whenever groups of dignitaries want honour guards I suppose that might be the case. It just seems unlikely given the 'bottom line' victory at all costs nature of the Space Marines.that they would think nothing of reducing combat efficiency of companies at random.

I think it more likely that chosen honour guards are treated as losses to their company in terms of manpower, and under ideal circumstances they are replaced if there are enough novices nearing the completion of their training. It's hard to think of an armed forces that doesn't have a dedicated leader-protection unit / regiment that isn't just an ad-hoc "you'll do" affair. I see no reason why this logic wouldn't translate to the 41st millennia and the Space Marines.

My personal opinion is that they should probably be supernumerary, as should Codex Command Squads, (the Codex states that Honour Guard may be seconded from the First Company, but it does not state if this is permanent; if it isn't I don't expect them to fill the vacant position), but it creates issues since there are a lot of characters that could conceivably lay claim to an Honour Guard. Eventually half the chapter may be made up of Honour Guard units. To some degree, it seems more reasonable that Honour Guard squads are formed on a temporary, as-needed, basis and draw on limited resources. After all, if everyone is to be "honoured", what does it really mean?

If the temporary assignment becomes longer-term, I can see spots getting filled up. With attrition from warfare, I'm sure replacements are a messy and uncertain business anyway, considering the various rituals they employ for finding and approving candidates.


Much like the Sanguinary Guard.

Yes. You appeared to state that the Honour Guard were chiefly a body guard for the Chapter Master, which was the point I was trying to refute. The current state of the background seem to indicate that the Sanguinary Guard is to the Chapter Master as an Honour Guard is to every other important individual.


It does indeed, but the problem comes when we try to understand rules by imagery. More - it comes when we try to rationalise over-planting and inappropriate pruning when it comes to Codex construction.

Can't really argue this point. I don't think there's a correct choice in the matter, only personal preference.


Please don't try to reduce and caricature my point. I have stated several times that I'm a fan of difference and tailoring for different Chapters. Just because I didn't stipulate that a Blood Angels command squad should probably have jump packs or whatever else you're trying suggest in an effort to pick holes in what I've said doesn't mean I did suggest that, nor does it negate my general concern.

No, I'm sorry. I tried to edit my post to make it more reasonable (I'm inclined to believe I still failed to some degree), but apparently you had started writing already. I don't disagree with your general concern, though I was (and still am) a bit confused with regard to this specific concern as I don't see what it does to fix the general issue. (Especially since to me, when I read the fluff, I seem to read now what you wish it to be.)


If you like the Blood Angels as they are, smashing. More strength to you. I don't. I think their army list and newer imagery is ineligant and cluttered with too many pointlessly shoehorned elements that could have been introduced far more smoothely and logically.

I don't like the Blood Angels as they are (well, I do, but they could be better), and I would also agree with the rest of your statement here. Where we differ is apparently that I would rather get rid of the Sanguinary Guard and keep the Honour Guard as they are.

Flame Boy
09-02-2014, 16:14
I must admit I thought it was a bit of a stretch to give all the fancy heat weapons to the Blood Angels. It seemed like they got them just because of Dante's Inferno pistol (Oh, such a bad joke). An apparently rare artifact just got turned into a rank-and-file weapon in the Blood Angel Codex seemingly for the sake of it. Mind you, I didn't really like previously rare and specialised Grav weapons being shoehorned into every available slot in the Vanilla marine codex and being left out everywhere else either.

I think it's getting to the point where they should just make one central marine codex to establish a baseline and then diverge from it into the Chapters representing other First-Founding Legions, but that would probably mean working out all the marine army lists at once, which just isn't going to happen, so all the lists will have weird, illogical inconsistencies. This is the most glaring when older Codex armies miss out on basic Vanilla weapons like the Thunderfire cannon simply because it was created out of thin air for the New Codex. I guess in the age of digital rulebooks it will be more possible to do these sort of changes.

Personally, in an ideal world I would like to see enough consistancy so that I could look at a Forge World army list for a space marine legion, and then see the unique nature of that legion develop and carry on through the creation of chapters to the modern day army list. If you could see how the "modern day" Blood Angels decended from their parent legion without loads of new units, vehicles and rules sprouting out of nowhere, then I'd consider that a success. Sadly, I think I'm being a bit optimistic to hope to see that much thought put into it.

Charistoph
09-02-2014, 19:37
I think it's getting to the point where they should just make one central marine codex to establish a baseline and then diverge from it into the Chapters representing other First-Founding Legions, but that would probably mean working out all the marine army lists at once, which just isn't going to happen, so all the lists will have weird, illogical inconsistencies. This is the most glaring when older Codex armies miss out on basic Vanilla weapons like the Thunderfire cannon simply because it was created out of thin air for the New Codex. I guess in the age of digital rulebooks it will be more possible to do these sort of changes.

Surprisingly, this wouldn't be as hard as some would think. The hardest parts are the tendency for Space Wolves to not have Sergeants native to the unit, the Blood Angels "Painted Red" Turbochargers, and which SCs from the Angels, Wolves, and Ultramarines do NOT go in the main codex.

I agree that we're not likely to see it happen in the current time frame, but they already have dropped one Marine codex (admittedly, the "youngest"), so the possibility exists, no matter how probable.