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Squishy1979
03-02-2014, 06:40
Ok, so I know that you cannot cast a Direct Damage spell into a unit engaged in close combat, nor can you cast a DD spell outside of your forward arc, unless the spell specifically overrides that condition. I would like to pose some questions that did not seem to have a clear answer in other threads. Instead of resurecting those threads, I thought it would be worth a new thread.

1) Pit of Shades/Deliverance of Itza - Pit of Shades and Deliverance of Itza are examples of a DD spell that "targets" a spot anywhere within 18" of the caster. I've seen 2 arguements on this one
a) The spell overrides the DD rule about forward arc, as it says anywhere within 18", which then allows targets outside of forward arc
b) The spell does not override the DD rule about forward arc, it is limited to being within 18" of the caster's forward arc, and cannot affect units in close combat.


2) Pink Fire of Tzeentch - Pink Fire of Tzeench is an example of a DD spell that puts a template down and then extends a line straight out from the caster and does damage to each model that it touches. If the caster is currently engaged in close combat, and wants to target a unit behind the unit he is currently engaged in:
a) is this legal
b) if so, will it affect any models in the unit he is currently engaged with as it passes through them on to the targeted unit?
c) if the wizard was in the second row, would/could it affect his own models, or would the wizard be unable to cast that spell unless he is in the front rank?
d) does the full teardrop template have to fall withing the front arc, or the center line of the template fall within the front arc

Clarification on how DD damage works outside of spells that pick targets would be greatly appreciate.

Blkc57
03-02-2014, 08:27
Ok I'll take a stab
on to point to 1: You are seriously stretching the usage of the word "anywhere". You might find that some will be all right with it (especially in the case of Deliverance since I feel it was silly to make it a DD in the first place) but most people will not read "anywhere" as being that specifically permissive to override the basic rules of magic. Many will rule in favor of B (although most I've met will allow A if they feel Deliverance was just screwed over)

Number 2: Pink fire of Tzeetch is a flame template that moves in the manner of a fire thrower. In the case of fire throwers when you first put down the template in base contact with the model firing, it cannot be in contact with a unit that is currently in combat or a friendly unit. When it moves out from its source using an artillery dice, the FAQs appear to have considered this a scatter effect and thus may effect both friendly units and units in combat. Remember while DD spells are usually not allowed to effect models in close combat or friendly models, DD spells that use a scattered template may effect such targets if they scatter onto them. For those that do not beleive me I quote the Skaven FAQ that backs up this premise that the random movement of the flame template is considered a scatter

Q: When firing a Warpfire Thrower, can you place the template in such a way that it could hit friendly models after moving the template the distance rolled on the artillery dice? (p60)
A: Yes, though it cannot be placed over any friendly models before you move it.
In the example you provide I would say that the caster is not allowed to fire the template, because prior to his rolling the artillery dice, when he initially places the template it would have to be placed over either friendly models or models in combat. If you alter the example and say that the caster is casting the spell in such a manner that when he initially places the template no such target is located there and then it randomly moves 8 inches forward on top of an enemy unit in combat, I would say that is a legitimate scatter and everything under the template is hit. Does this make sense to you?

A more fascinating question to me is why are you using the Lore of Tzeentch? Its lore attribute is horrible.

furrie
03-02-2014, 10:24
Ok I'll take a stab
on to point to 1: You are seriously stretching the usage of the word "anywhere". You might find that some will be all right with it (especially in the case of Deliverance since I feel it was silly to make it a DD in the first place) but most people will not read "anywhere" as being that specifically permissive to override the basic rules of magic. Many will rule in favor of B (although most I've met will allow A if they feel Deliverance was just screwed over)

Number 2: Pink fire of Tzeetch is a flame template that moves in the manner of a fire thrower. In the case of fire throwers when you first put down the template in base contact with the model firing, it cannot be in contact with a unit that is currently in combat or a friendly unit. When it moves out from its source using an artillery dice, the FAQs appear to have considered this a scatter effect and thus may effect both friendly units and units in combat. Remember while DD spells are usually not allowed to effect models in close combat or friendly models, DD spells that use a scattered template may effect such targets if they scatter onto them. For those that do not beleive me I quote the Skaven FAQ that backs up this premise that the random movement of the flame template is considered a scatter

In the example you provide I would say that the caster is not allowed to fire the template, because prior to his rolling the artillery dice, when he initially places the template it would have to be placed over either friendly models or models in combat. If you alter the example and say that the caster is casting the spell in such a manner that when he initially places the template no such target is located there and then it randomly moves 8 inches forward on top of an enemy unit in combat, I would say that is a legitimate scatter and everything under the template is hit. Does this make sense to you?

A more fascinating question to me is why are you using the Lore of Tzeentch? Its lore attribute is horrible.

With pink horrors you are forced to take the Lore of Tzeentch

forseer of fates
03-02-2014, 11:30
I think if the spell like pink fire has a chance to hit combat then it cant happen, much like a cannon shot. Its most disappointing that lord kroaks spell doesn't have an a errata as far as I read, the spell bubble if it hits one combat, it cannot be cast, which means a lot of the time its worthless.

Blkc57
03-02-2014, 16:11
I think if the spell like pink fire has a chance to hit combat then it cant happen, much like a cannon shot. Its most disappointing that lord kroaks spell doesn't have an a errata as far as I read, the spell bubble if it hits one combat, it cannot be cast, which means a lot of the time its worthless.

That statement is only true, Forseer, for cannons themselves. Even cannon like spells such as Penumbral Pendulum allow one to strike into close combat as per the Errata that removes the sentence that prevented it and removes the spells DD type. Also check out this FAQ statment and pay attention to the last part of the sentence, remember the crux of the Fires of Tzeentch argument is that the random movement of the flame template is in fact a random scatter:

Q: Can direct damage spells be used in such a way that they affect friendly models? (p31)
A: No. A direct damage spell canít be used in a way that deliberately affects a friendly model (though they may end up scattering onto a friendly model and affecting it in that way).

Squishy1979
03-02-2014, 17:34
Ok I'll take a stab
on to point to 1: You are seriously stretching the usage of the word "anywhere". You might find that some will be all right with it (especially in the case of Deliverance since I feel it was silly to make it a DD in the first place) but most people will not read "anywhere" as being that specifically permissive to override the basic rules of magic. Many will rule in favor of B (although most I've met will allow A if they feel Deliverance was just screwed over)

Number 2: Pink fire of Tzeetch is a flame template that moves in the manner of a fire thrower. In the case of fire throwers when you first put down the template in base contact with the model firing, it cannot be in contact with a unit that is currently in combat or a friendly unit. When it moves out from its source using an artillery dice, the FAQs appear to have considered this a scatter effect and thus may effect both friendly units and units in combat. Remember while DD spells are usually not allowed to effect models in close combat or friendly models, DD spells that use a scattered template may effect such targets if they scatter onto them. For those that do not beleive me I quote the Skaven FAQ that backs up this premise that the random movement of the flame template is considered a scatter

In the example you provide I would say that the caster is not allowed to fire the template, because prior to his rolling the artillery dice, when he initially places the template it would have to be placed over either friendly models or models in combat. If you alter the example and say that the caster is casting the spell in such a manner that when he initially places the template no such target is located there and then it randomly moves 8 inches forward on top of an enemy unit in combat, I would say that is a legitimate scatter and everything under the template is hit. Does this make sense to you?

A more fascinating question to me is why are you using the Lore of Tzeentch? Its lore attribute is horrible.

I appreciate your feedback on this, however, you don't seem certain that it would work the way you describe. I am not suggesting you are wrong, as I agree with what you are saying, I am just looking for some certainty that it would be played that way (BRB, FAQs, Erratas, etc that describe how it works). With #2 it seems that you could not cast the spell if you are in the second rank, as you would have to place the template so that it starts in contact with a friendly model....unless it "bypasses" that rule as the target is chosen before hand, and the fact that you have to start the template in base contact means that friendly models, or models in close combat with your unit happen to be unfortunate to get in the way of a template scattering on to them from a different target being picked.

Regarding Lore of Tzeentch, I was playing a Daemon army with a unit of Pink Horrors, and a Herald of Tzeentch on an Exalted Seeker Chariot....Lore of Tzeentch seemed to be the better choice between Tzeentch and Metal.

Squishy1979
03-02-2014, 17:36
Also check out this FAQ statment and pay attention to the last part of the sentence, remember the crux of the Fires of Tzeentch argument is that the random movement of the flame template is in fact a random scatter:

I'm sorry, but I am confused about which way you are arguing that this works with the Tzeentch spell...the FAQ statement seems to say that you could not cast it if your wizard is in the second row, but you seem to be arguing that you COULD cast it from the second row, as it randomly scatters through your unit.

Blkc57
03-02-2014, 20:14
I'm sorry, but I am confused about which way you are arguing that this works with the Tzeentch spell...the FAQ statement seems to say that you could not cast it if your wizard is in the second row, but you seem to be arguing that you COULD cast it from the second row, as it randomly scatters through your unit.

I apologize Squishy, I had a feeling my point wasn't being well explained. What I meant to say is that the spell while a DD can hit a friendly model provided that when you initially place the template in base contact with the wizard there is no friendly model there. If a wizard is in the second rank he places the initial template in contact with his base and over a friendly model in front of him, thus this would be an illegal shot. If the wizard was in the front row, placed the template (nothing illegal was under neath it) then rolled to scatter it forward and got an 8 on the artillery dice, the template moves forward 8 inches where it lands on both a unit of Empire troops and a unit of Beasts of Nurgle, this would be a legitimate shot and both units would suffer hits.

Also there is nothing definitive that ever gives a clear explanation if "anywhere" is considered a good enough exception to the basic rules of magic to allow the spell to override them. This issue has come up frequently with many spells (I always have to deal with Skaven players claiming they can cast scorch ANYWHERE even into combat) A true rules lawyer can always twist the RAW to give them the answer they want, but in this case you have to use common sense and good judgement to come to a reasonable compromise with your opponent.

EDIT: also in my opinion Lore of Metal is far far superior to Lore of Tzeentch and you should always be choosing it over the Tzeentch, but I understand in the case of units required to take the lore that you are in effect stuck with it.

Squishy1979
03-02-2014, 21:16
I apologize Squishy, I had a feeling my point wasn't being well explained. What I meant to say is that the spell while a DD can hit a friendly model provided that when you initially place the template in base contact with the wizard there is no friendly model there. If a wizard is in the second rank he places the initial template in contact with his base and over a friendly model in front of him, thus this would be an illegal shot. If the wizard was in the front row, placed the template (nothing illegal was under neath it) then rolled to scatter it forward and got an 8 on the artillery dice, the template moves forward 8 inches where it lands on both a unit of Empire troops and a unit of Beasts of Nurgle, this would be a legitimate shot and both units would suffer hits.


Also there is nothing definitive that ever gives a clear explanation if "anywhere" is considered a good enough exception to the basic rules of magic to allow the spell to override them. This issue has come up frequently with many spells (I always have to deal with Skaven players claiming they can cast scorch ANYWHERE even into combat) A true rules lawyer can always twist the RAW to give them the answer they want, but in this case you have to use common sense and good judgement to come to a reasonable compromise with your opponent.

Ah ha, I understand your point now...although I am not sure that I agree with it. I understand the issue of being able to place the template in a leagal position to start with, but in our example of scattering into friendly/enemy units, and affecting both of them, I don't necessarily agree...only because in that example you would have to pick a target that is in close combat, which DD can't do. I would agree if the caster was not in close combat, and he targeted a unit that was also not in close combat (must be 8" away, as that is the length of the flame template), that it could "scatter" forward so that the narrow end ended up in the targeted unit and the fat end hit a unit behind the target unit, that IS in close combat, thereby potentially getting friendly/enemy units that are engaged in cc (hopefully my example makes sense).

To me, that situation seems pretty clear according to the rules. My question was whether the caster could target a unit that is away from him (not engaged in cc), and then place the template down on his base (which could potentially affect models the caster is in cc with, or friendly units) as his target was a legal target, which would then mean placing the template on top of friendly units/engaged units was legal. This question was also something I had with "extend a line straight out" type spells that do not have a target.



EDIT: also in my opinion Lore of Metal is far far superior to Lore of Tzeentch and you should always be choosing it over the Tzeentch, but I understand in the case of units required to take the lore that you are in effect stuck with it.

I will have to take a second look at the spells of Metal. I play against a skaven player, meaning that they only have a 6+ armour save (if any), and as such will never be wounded on the spells from the Lore of Metal (or hardly wounded).

Blkc57
03-02-2014, 22:09
No worries on disagreeing with me, we have the forum exactly to discuss such matters. What you have to consider is the various parts of the equation for Pink Fire and the order you have to resolve them.

1st, what is a legitimate target? you are correct that in my example choosing the target of the empire troops as your initial "target" would be illegal, as your initial target would need to be something like a small detachment sitting in the open next to such a combat that is still within LOS.

2. Then you have to consider, where does my initial template lie? that is where being in the second row causes a problem or being in CC, remember the initial placement is not part of the scatter (hence why i quoted the section from the Skaven) it is part of the initial targeting sequence of the spell, and thus does not benefit from any exception to DD templates. In the case of fire templates you don't place the template over your LOS chosen target, you place the template in base contact with yourself targeting it towards your chosen unit and obeying the DD spell restriction that prevents you from initially placing any template over any model that is engaged in combat or a friendly.

3. Last you consider, where does my scatter for the template take it? at this point the spell becomes free'd from the constraints of the Direct Damage spell rules, and my point is that there is nothing to prevent the template from moving over engaged units at this point in spell resolution. Thats how I see one should resolve the spell.

Also, please do take a second look at the lore of Metal, it has many many uses other than its direct damage spells. It has several great augments and hexes and really most people don't consider that it has one of the THE best 6 dicer spells in the form of Final Transmutation. The range is incredible on that spell and its effects can be brutal to horde armies like Skaven. It is hands down the most underrated Lore, and the one I always take with me to tournaments.

Squishy1979
03-02-2014, 23:02
No worries on disagreeing with me, we have the forum exactly to discuss such matters. What you have to consider is the various parts of the equation for Pink Fire and the order you have to resolve them.

1st, what is a legitimate target? you are correct that in my example choosing the target of the empire troops as your initial "target" would be illegal, as your initial target would need to be something like a small detachment sitting in the open next to such a combat that is still within LOS.

2. Then you have to consider, where does my initial template lie? that is where being in the second row causes a problem or being in CC, remember the initial placement is not part of the scatter (hence why i quoted the section from the Skaven) it is part of the initial targeting sequence of the spell, and thus does not benefit from any exception to DD templates. In the case of fire templates you don't place the template over your LOS chosen target, you place the template in base contact with yourself targeting it towards your chosen unit and obeying the DD spell restriction that prevents you from initially placing any template over any model that is engaged in combat or a friendly.

3. Last you consider, where does my scatter for the template take it? at this point the spell becomes free'd from the constraints of the Direct Damage spell rules, and my point is that there is nothing to prevent the template from moving over engaged units at this point in spell resolution. Thats how I see one should resolve the spell.

Thanks for this, I actually completely agree with everything you're saying.


Also, please do take a second look at the lore of Metal, it has many many uses other than its direct damage spells. It has several great augments and hexes and really most people don't consider that it has one of the THE best 6 dicer spells in the form of Final Transmutation. The range is incredible on that spell and its effects can be brutal to horde armies like Skaven. It is hands down the most underrated Lore, and the one I always take with me to tournaments.

I will definitely look at it again next time I play that army. I seem to remember final transmutation being good, and I think the golden hyenas one is good (if that's the right lore)? But in order to make it effective, you probably need to run it on a lvl 3 or lvl4 wizard. I think it'd be too risky on spell selection to run it on a lvl2 guy. But I appreciate the feedback regardless.