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View Full Version : Are there Dark Eldar/Eldar/Ork units which didn't exist during the Great Crusade?



The Emperor
04-02-2014, 15:55
I was just wondering how well those armies would fit into the 30k setting. Of all the 40k armies, I'm pretty sure that those are the armies which have existed unchanged since then, but maybe I've missed something really obvious. So have I? Are there any units in their codex which didn't exist during the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy era, or can those three armies slot into the Forge World Horus Heresy series without a problem?

Theocracity
04-02-2014, 16:42
Orks would have a different pool of technology to loot from, though honestly by the end it'd probably end up looking the same. You could probably say that it took slightly different forms, though. I could see a bit less of the human-mimicking regimentation of the Blood Axes or Goffs and a bit more of the primal influence of the Snakebites. Also I'm not sure if Stompas or Gargants are a thing back then - I know there are references of meks getting the idea of them from Imperium titans, but honestly it's not hard to imagine that that spark of influence has happened many times among the Orks.

Edit: Actually now that I think about it I think Blood Axes are pretty specifically a post-Heresy creation. Not sure though. But that would mean kommandos wouldn't be a big thing.

Idaan
04-02-2014, 16:46
Dark Eldar didn't exist at all during the Heresy era, as they were only started in M36 when Vect founded the first Kabal. The equipment that the noble houses of Commorragh would have used could be pretty similar, but the social organisation was markedly different back then. And the nobles probably had little reason to go raiding into the realspace.

The Eldar founded the Path only after the Fall, unless the fluff changed recently. The first Path opened was the Path of the Warrior, so there might have been Aspect Warriors, but it's unlikely that the aspects would be the same, and even more unlikely that they managed to found shrines on all Craftworlds. The second is almost impossible if you assume, like some older fluff did, that the spread of the Aspects only happened after the destruction of the Shrine of the Asur. The only hard date on the development of the Aspects is that Maugan Ra's craftworld Altansar was lost 500 years after the Fall, leading to the development of the Dark Reaper Aspect. This means that the earliest point at which you might see modern Dark Reapers is 250 years after the Heresy.
Then there's the fact that figuring out all the spirit stone-related stuff took some time as well. The Iyanden minidex shows us that the Eldar of that Craftworld only decided to use spirit stones and Infinity Circuits as soul repositories in M33, some 2000 years after the Heresy. This makes the existence of Wraithlords and Wraithguard highly unlikely.

Of course, most of the Horus Heresy writers ignored all that out of ignorance, thinking for some reason that the Fall happened in ancient history rather than right before the Great Crusade (see "Fulgrim", "A Thousand Sons" and "Legion" for insance), so you have modern Path-following Craftworlders running around in the books.

Mr_Rose
04-02-2014, 17:22
Asurmen started the Path of the Warrior immediately after the Fall and his apprentices founded the first Aspect shrines based on their personal styles. No-one knows how long that took exactly but there are 500 years between the Fall and Istvaan to play with. I would expect that both "light" and "dark" flavours of Eldar would look more like FW's own Corsair list but with access to the original Phoenix Lords (i.e. including Arhra but not Karandras) as they would not have the full Path mapped out yet.
In fact, I'd give Corsair units the ability to pick up skills from Phoenix Lords that join them (like Aspect units do) but without the specialised gear or stat line.

As for the Orks, yes they picked up the idea of uniforms and marching drill from 'oomies but that doesn't mean that Ork yoofs wouldn't have their rebellious need for discipline and order. Similarly, Ork Meks got the idea for stompas and gargants from titans but that doesn't mean they wouldn't have super-heavies; think of a bigger battlewagon. No, bigga than dat. Naw, bigga! Dint'choo 'ear me? Iz sed really big!

brionl
04-02-2014, 19:58
There were humans all over the place during the Dark Age of Technology. That was one of the points of the Crusade, bringing all those scattered human worlds back under central authority. So Orks could have had Blood Axes and Kommandos for quite a while before that.

Lord Damocles
04-02-2014, 20:11
I'm pretty sure that the Vyper was a relatively late development by the Craftworlders..?

Notes in White Dwarf accompanying the 4th ed. Codex: Eldar noted that Iyanden was working on developing close combat Wraithguard - which would seem to imply that Wraithblades are a fairly recent development; 40K timeline snarl up not withstanding...

Grand Master Azrael
04-02-2014, 20:28
I'm guessing Ghazgull wasn't around back then

Greyhound
04-02-2014, 20:45
Considering that the 6 klans were created by the brain boyz yonks ago, the death skulls might have been cunning and sneaky already long before men arrived.

However since the Xenos books are written from the imperium point of view it is likely that the tendency to copy human behaviour became the focus in recent history.

Maybe if the core army was Eldar we would have the death skulls trying to mimic poorly the warp spiders or some other sneaky eldar aspect.

Theocracity
04-02-2014, 20:58
There were humans all over the place during the Dark Age of Technology. That was one of the points of the Crusade, bringing all those scattered human worlds back under central authority. So Orks could have had Blood Axes and Kommandos for quite a while before that.

I don't think they'd resemble the current iterations of Kommandos and such though, because the Imperium's dominant culture and style wasn't as widespread at that point. The traits that any given group of Blood Axes picked up from local isolated humies might be radically different from another group, which in turn would be different from modern kommandos (who react to the more homogenous composition of Imperial forces).I do wish I had my book to look up the reference I'm thinking of though.

I'd be interested if anyone knows the clan affiliation of the Beast and the Ullanor warboss (whatever his name was). They were pretty dominant forces and likely had a big impact on Ork culture at the time.

Poncho160
04-02-2014, 21:01
There were humans around all over the galaxy long before the Great Crusade, who had access to the STC data, including all the weapons the Imperium has now.

It is more than likely that the Orks had contact with these human civilisations and fought wars against them, so any human influence on the Orks could have happened a long time before the fledging Imperium first fought the Orks.

Grand Master Azrael
04-02-2014, 21:02
There were humans around all over the galaxy long before the Great Crusade, who had access to the STC data, including all the weapons the Imperium has now.

It is more than likely that the Orks had contact with these human civilisations and fought wars against them, so any human influence on the Orks could have happened a long time before the fledging Imperium first fought the Orks.

agreed. It even states that on many occasions the Space Marine Legions had to free human worlds from the Orks during the Great Crusade

Grimbad
04-02-2014, 21:05
Also I'm not sure if Stompas or Gargants are a thing back then - I know there are references of meks getting the idea of them from Imperium titans, but honestly it's not hard to imagine that that spark of influence has happened many times among the Orks.

The old-old First Gargant story explicitly involved the Emperor already being on the Golden Throne and an object of veneration, with the orks copying not just the design of titans but their religious significance.

I can imagine they were already familiar with Eldar titans, but thought they were too frail and weedy-lookin', so they didn't start building their own until the stompier, tougher-lookin' human ones showed up.

Then again, the old-old First Gargant story also made clear that the appearance of gargants was a major change in the way orks behaved. Maybe the orks went into a kind of collective 'hibernation' after the Big Party that knocked the Blood Axes out of being the dominant clan, and had built gargants before that, and simply forgot how to Waaagh! for a while after the Blood Axe ruling caste was deposed.

Greyhound
04-02-2014, 21:13
...Ullanor warboss (whatever his name was). They were pretty dominant forces and likely had a big impact on Ork culture at the time.

Gharkull Blackfang - Apocalypse rules don't mention his clan... He looks/feel Goff, but anything that size and brutal usually look Goff to me.

edit: the picture in the book shows evil sunz, Snakebite and bad moonz symbol... I think he was beyond the Klan/tribe system. Some believe he was a descendant of the brain boys.

Menthak
04-02-2014, 21:15
I imagine that Orks would have had a lot more power armour to play with back them.

Master_of_Asgard
04-02-2014, 21:17
I personally really dislike the idea that the fall happened just before the Great Crusade, even if it has been neatly slotted in that it created calm in the warp to allow Big E to send his Legions out.

For a race who's natural lifespan can apparently be several thousand years, that means that the Fall happened, what, one or two Eldar generations ago? It just seems way too recent. I much prefer the original fluff which had it much longer ago.

On topic: I think the Dark Eldar would look fairly similar except wouldn't have power from pain. Raiders and Venoms are just supposed to be civilian pleasure craft re-purposed to be more killy. They may not have had the Kabals but they were still pretty nasty and may have gone raiding just for the lolz.

Exodites would be around, probably very similar to how they are now as they were the first to abandon the Eldar Empire. If the Fall happened before the Heresy then Harlequins could certainly exist, but they probably wouldn't be a very large force.

The Craftworlds had still been sailing around for a while by the time of the Heresy. I imagine they'd have the basic Falcon chassis and quite a lot of it's many variations. I could well imagine them having soe form of militia as well. Not exactly like the guardians of today, because they would lack the strong contrast of the Aspect shrines, but like someone said earlier, they'd probably resemble the Corsairs we see today.

Orks? Orkz iz Orkz mate.

Theocracity
04-02-2014, 21:19
There were humans around all over the galaxy long before the Great Crusade, who had access to the STC data, including all the weapons the Imperium has now.

It is more than likely that the Orks had contact with these human civilisations and fought wars against them, so any human influence on the Orks could have happened a long time before the fledging Imperium first fought the Orks.

I guess I just view pre-Crusade humanity as a lot less homogenous than it was in the modern era. To me there's no garauntee that an isolated bush kingdom of DaOT survivors would look anything like the Imperium. After the Crusade rolls through, of course it would - that's the whole point of the Crusade, after all. But even if they had some STC patterns - and knew how to use - there's no garauntee that their culture and way of fighting would resemble the Imperium's enough that Blood Axe Orks would pick up the same mannerisms between them.

The old-old First Gargant story explicitly involved the Emperor already being on the Golden Throne and an object of veneration, with the orks copying not just the design of titans but their religious significance.

I can imagine they were already familiar with Eldar titans, but thought they were too frail and weedy-lookin', so they didn't start building their own until the stompier, tougher-lookin' human ones showed up.

Then again, the old-old First Gargant story also made clear that the appearance of gargants was a major change in the way orks behaved. Maybe the orks went into a kind of collective 'hibernation' after the Big Party that knocked the Blood Axes out of being the dominant clan, and had built gargants before that, and simply forgot how to Waaagh! for a while after the Blood Axe ruling caste was deposed.

Ah yes, the Big Party was what I was thinking about. You also bring up the good point that Orks have not necessarily been always in a position of strength - sometimes a big defeat or new orky development can make their collective power wax or wane.

Hengist
04-02-2014, 21:46
Dark Eldar didn't exist at all during the Heresy era, as they were only started in M36 when Vect founded the first Kabal. The equipment that the noble houses of Commorragh would have used could be pretty similar, but the social organisation was markedly different back then. And the nobles probably had little reason to go raiding into the realspace.

The Eldar founded the Path only after the Fall, unless the fluff changed recently. The first Path opened was the Path of the Warrior, so there might have been Aspect Warriors, but it's unlikely that the aspects would be the same, and even more unlikely that they managed to found shrines on all Craftworlds. The second is almost impossible if you assume, like some older fluff did, that the spread of the Aspects only happened after the destruction of the Shrine of the Asur. The only hard date on the development of the Aspects is that Maugan Ra's craftworld Altansar was lost 500 years after the Fall, leading to the development of the Dark Reaper Aspect. This means that the earliest point at which you might see modern Dark Reapers is 250 years after the Heresy.
Then there's the fact that figuring out all the spirit stone-related stuff took some time as well. The Iyanden minidex shows us that the Eldar of that Craftworld only decided to use spirit stones and Infinity Circuits as soul repositories in M33, some 2000 years after the Heresy. This makes the existence of Wraithlords and Wraithguard highly unlikely.

Of course, most of the Horus Heresy writers ignored all that out of ignorance, thinking for some reason that the Fall happened in ancient history rather than right before the Great Crusade (see "Fulgrim", "A Thousand Sons" and "Legion" for insance), so you have modern Path-following Craftworlders running around in the books.

The fluff paints the Fall of the Eldar as a slow degeneration of their society, and the non-Chaotic Eldar had time enough to build the Craftworlds between the corruption of their kind becoming apparent, and the actual birth of Slaanesh; to me, that suggests strongly that it didn't happen overnight, but took place over centuries or even millennia. Indeed I've always taken it to be implied that Slaanesh's 'gestation' began cM25, causing the warpstorms that began the Age of Strife, and ended in M29 with his/her/its 'birth'. With that in mind, '500 years after the fall' could still have been long before the Heresy. Now that explanation requires some assumptions, but doesn't, to my knowledge, directly contradict any written canon (albeit I haven't read the newest Eldar codex, nor the Iyanden supplement), and seems to me a simple way of squaring what happens in the Heresy novels with the Eldar timeline.

As for the Dark Eldar, is there really much reason to assume that their military organisation changed much when Vect took over? Or indeed that they in M41 are even much different from an outsider's perspective from the debased Fall-era Eldar?

Theocracity
04-02-2014, 21:51
As for the Dark Eldar, is there really much reason to assume that their military organisation changed much when Vect took over? Or indeed that they in M41 are even much different from an outsider's perspective from the debased Fall-era Eldar?

I actually see a lot of potential for change. You've got a society full of hedonistic dilettantes with amazing technology and an eye for aesthetics - why wouldn't the design of their vehicles and equipment shift over the course of thousands of years?

You could argue of course that the nature of their aesthetic shifts are too subtle for a lowly human to be able to understand ;).

Latro_
04-02-2014, 22:51
techincally orks mastery of technology is genetic so they'd have all the stuff they have now but obv looted stuff that was about at the time.

Greyhound
04-02-2014, 23:32
techincally orks mastery of technology is genetic so they'd have all the stuff they have now but obv looted stuff that was about at the time.
That's the best way to put it forward. Lootas would have had a ball with all the pre-heresy technology.
Maybe the Kommandos would have different looking gear, but at their core, there always were some dubious kunning lads, who liked to ambush and kill.

There is nothing in the Red Skull Kommandoz (Snikrot's band) that would be at odd in the 30k settings.

All Ork units are fine, but their looted gear and the death skulls look-and-feel might need some tweaks. Essentially it's a great opportunity for modelling!

On a side note, some of these pre-heresy tanks are SO orky!
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/Product/AlternativeFW/large/medusa1.jpg
Replace the SM by orks, paint some rust... job done!

Hengist
04-02-2014, 23:33
I actually see a lot of potential for change. You've got a society full of hedonistic dilettantes with amazing technology and an eye for aesthetics - why wouldn't the design of their vehicles and equipment shift over the course of thousands of years?

You could argue of course that the nature of their aesthetic shifts are too subtle for a lowly human to be able to understand ;).

Oh, I'm quite happy with accepting the potential for change, but not for resting an argument on the insistence it must have occurred. In this instance, there's not necessarily any reason for seeing canon inconsistency in the Dark Eldar (or, if you prefer, those tall, thin pointy-eared chaps who live in the webway, and like dressing in black, putting spikes on things, and putting people on spikes) being presented as, at least to the eyes of human witnesses, essentially the same in the thirtieth millennium as the forty-first, beyond their boss being called 'Baron Lulzebil' rather than 'Archon Lulzebil'.

Mr_Rose
04-02-2014, 23:39
techincally orks mastery of technology is genetic so they'd have all the stuff they have now but obv looted stuff that was about at the time.

Except we know they can and do innovate so clearly not all if their knowledge is inbuilt. I reckon they must have a whole bunch of underlying principles intuitively encoded into the way they think but very few actual designs. That is to say, Meks are not walking orky STC databases but are actual legit inventors.

Azazyll
05-02-2014, 03:33
While Vect did not create the Kabal structure until M36, there were dark eldar living in Commoragh, and there is no indication that their technology has changed in any way, just their social organization. Considering that the Dark Eldar closely resemble pre-Fall Eldar, much more so than the Craftworlders do, it is quite likely that most of the Dark Eldar units would exist during the Great Crusade. We know that Raiders and Ravagers are based on pre-Fall pleasure barges for sure. All of the constituent components of Commoragh existed as well, although they had not been as intricately connected via web gates.

naloth
05-02-2014, 05:47
Except we know they can and do innovate so clearly not all if their knowledge is inbuilt. I reckon they must have a whole bunch of underlying principles intuitively encoded into the way they think but very few actual designs. That is to say, Meks are not walking orky STC databases but are actual legit inventors.

Possibly. There's certainly differences in what each Mek builds, but there's also a known effect of Ork psychic energy or belief also drives what can be done. After all the "red make it go faster" works because enough Orks believe it does. There's a number of stories about how Ork weapons don't work when analyzed by other races because part of the driving force is the Ork will.

Gus8
05-02-2014, 06:42
Tau will be sweet though?

Losing Command
05-02-2014, 06:43
Tau were still babarians back then, with all the what are now castes being seperate sub-species that lived seperated from the other sub-species most of the time. The Imperium discovered Tau after the Heresy if I remember correctly (probably wouldn't have been any Tau alive otherwise ...)

The Eldar Hemlock Wraithfighter surely didn't excist during the Great Crusade. And maybe some of the 'newer' warrior shrine that also don't have a Phoenix lord going for them ?
Not shure about Dark Eldar, but it might be that at the time the Haemonculi weren't widespread or that crazy and twisted yet ?
Deffkoptas sound like a recent invention when you read their fluff, but with Orks I can imagine that Meks forget only to re-invent all sorts of things constantly.

Greyhound
05-02-2014, 07:38
I always thought Deffkotpa would have been invented the moment orks saw an eldar Jetbike.

ismeno
05-02-2014, 08:00
There were no Tau back then. Reason enough to play 30K imho......


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sgtspiff
05-02-2014, 08:18
Oh I just realised that in 30K Ahra is the phoenix lord for Scorpions. I would love to have both Ahra and his scorps. So much anger and rage in an eldar.

Poseidal
05-02-2014, 08:20
Had the Asuryata left the planet Asur then?

Shamana
05-02-2014, 10:42
Oh I just realised that in 30K Ahra is the phoenix lord for Scorpions. I would love to have both Ahra and his scorps. So much anger and rage in an eldar.

I think it made sense to change the image a bit, though, rage, anger etc fits more with the Banshee schtick imo. Heck, I get angry every time I think about the banshees and how they ended up in 6E :p

As for the Hemlock, well, it had apparently existed for a while when Lugganath was attacked by the Emperor's Children in M34. It was based off the spirit stone/infinity circuit, though, so it probably wasn't used during the great crusade. I mean, someone had to actually THINK about weaponizing the closest thing to non-horrible afterlife the race had, using the souls themselves as a weapon and putting them and the operator at risk, and to carry it through. And remember, these are souls not just in the metaphysical sense, but actual "personalities" that one can meet and converse with. That... might have taken a while.

Mr_Rose
05-02-2014, 11:25
Possibly. There's certainly differences in what each Mek builds, but there's also a known effect of Ork psychic energy or belief also drives what can be done. After all the "red make it go faster" works because enough Orks believe it does. There's a number of stories about how Ork weapons don't work when analyzed by other races because part of the driving force is the Ork will.

No there aren't. There's exactly one original hypothesis proposed by a, shall we say, slightly unreliable magos biologis who discovered that all Orks are slightly psychic and that both proximity to other orkoids (inc. grots, squigs, etc.) and the numbers of same governed how immature Ork spores developed.
While there is no reason to doubt his empirical data in that regard, he then spins that out into a series of increasingly wild speculations with no supporting evidence. Including those that you mentioned and ignoring that Meks may well, being inveterate tinkerers who never build the same thing the same way twice, simply be painting all their successful (i.e. faster) "eksperiments" red and the less fast ones other colours because they feel it's only "proppa" to commemorate the fastest trukks with a red paint job.
Similar doubts can be laid against his "some Ork guns only work for Orks" discovery as it's not shown that he ever correlated those guns with the mek that built them or investigated whether this was a deliberate choice to prevent non-Orks lootin' his best gear (i.e. that there was a mechanism designed to disable the gun in the hands of a non-Ork).

Of course, immediately on being presented with this singular, unreliable bit of semi-lucid speculation by a magos whose own superiors are presented as considering unstable in the very same piece, the Internet took the whole thing to be Sacred Canon and universally applicable to all things orky so now you have people claiming that dethkoptas only fly by psychic power or that an Ork could pick up a tree branch and make it spit bullets if only he believed hard enough (or possibly 'ard enuff).

Don't fall for it.

Agonius
05-02-2014, 11:41
Dark Eldar didn't exist at all during the Heresy era, as they were only started in M36 when Vect founded the first Kabal. The equipment that the noble houses of Commorragh would have used could be pretty similar, but the social organisation was markedly different back then. And the nobles probably had little reason to go raiding into the realspace.

In one of Horus Heresy books, full of short stories, there is an episode about small number of space wolves, fighting dark eldar who kept torturing human inhabitants of some planet. They were pretty much exactly the same as they are in 40k, any differences are minor details.

Poseidal
05-02-2014, 12:16
The term Dark Eldar didn't exist until Vect took power.

Also, I'm not sure that the society was the same in the old aristocratic system, as the new society is all about upward mobility, which would seem much more insurmountable before Vect shook things up a lot.

OuroborosTriumphant
05-02-2014, 12:21
Oh I just realised that in 30K Ahra is the phoenix lord for Scorpions. I would love to have both Ahra and his scorps. So much anger and rage in an eldar.

On the same note, there would not yet be any Incubi.

AndrewGPaul
05-02-2014, 12:23
No there aren't. There's exactly one original hypothesis proposed by a, shall we say, slightly unreliable magos biologis who discovered that all Orks are slightly psychic and that both proximity to other orkoids (inc. grots, squigs, etc.) and the numbers of same governed how immature Ork spores developed.
While there is no reason to doubt his empirical data in that regard, he then spins that out into a series of increasingly wild speculations with no supporting evidence. Including those that you mentioned and ignoring that Meks may well, being inveterate tinkerers who never build the same thing the same way twice, simply be painting all their successful (i.e. faster) "eksperiments" red and the less fast ones other colours because they feel it's only "proppa" to commemorate the fastest trukks with a red paint job.
Similar doubts can be laid against his "some Ork guns only work for Orks" discovery as it's not shown that he ever correlated those guns with the mek that built them or investigated whether this was a deliberate choice to prevent non-Orks lootin' his best gear (i.e. that there was a mechanism designed to disable the gun in the hands of a non-Ork).

Of course, immediately on being presented with this singular, unreliable bit of semi-lucid speculation by a magos whose own superiors are presented as considering unstable in the very same piece, the Internet took the whole thing to be Sacred Canon and universally applicable to all things orky so now you have people claiming that dethkoptas only fly by psychic power or that an Ork could pick up a tree branch and make it spit bullets if only he believed hard enough (or possibly 'ard enuff).

Don't fall for it.

I quite like the "racial technomancy" theory, but not to the ridiculous extent that you mention in the last paragraph. Is it not stated, in the original article or elsewhere, that some Ork mechanisms shouldn't work, due to seizing gears and the like, but that the psychic potential of the Orks acts as a sort of "lubricant"? That I can accept, along with the red paint adding a couple of HP to the engine output of a buggy. :)


I personally really dislike the idea that the fall happened just before the Great Crusade, even if it has been neatly slotted in that it created calm in the warp to allow Big E to send his Legions out.

For a race who's natural lifespan can apparently be several thousand years, that means that the Fall happened, what, one or two Eldar generations ago? It just seems way too recent. I much prefer the original fluff which had it much longer ago.

On topic: I think the Dark Eldar would look fairly similar except wouldn't have power from pain. Raiders and Venoms are just supposed to be civilian pleasure craft re-purposed to be more killy. They may not have had the Kabals but they were still pretty nasty and may have gone raiding just for the lolz.

Exodites would be around, probably very similar to how they are now as they were the first to abandon the Eldar Empire. If the Fall happened before the Heresy then Harlequins could certainly exist, but they probably wouldn't be a very large force.

The Craftworlds had still been sailing around for a while by the time of the Heresy. I imagine they'd have the basic Falcon chassis and quite a lot of it's many variations. I could well imagine them having soe form of militia as well. Not exactly like the guardians of today, because they would lack the strong contrast of the Aspect shrines, but like someone said earlier, they'd probably resemble the Corsairs we see today.

The Fall has always been stated to be at the beginning of the Great Crusade (some sources, IIRC, have stated that the Emperor had the Crusade fleets waiting in the solar system ready to go, while others suggest that they were only built after the wqrp storms were blown away). It's only with the publication of the Horus Heresy novels that the implications of that had to be addressed or handwaved away.

Having said that, the Fall was an unimaginably catastrophic societal event. I would perhaps imagine that the majority of the survivors would be young, if not actual children. Furthermore, I could see the already-isolationist Craftworlds having implemented some sort of proto-Path system in the decades or centuries before the Fall. I would think that the weaponry and vehicles would already be in existence. In fact, you could use the 1st edition Epic Eldar background as a "Heresy-era" force to distinguish it from the "modern" Eldar.

For example, the Codex: Titanicus supplement for Adeptus Titanicus divided Eldar infantry into Dire Avengers and Swooping Hawks - basically infantry on foot and infantry with jet/jump/antigrav packs. In 40k terms, I'd say that the former would be Guardians and the latter being Forge World's winged Corsairs. If you really want Wraithguard, you could look on them originally being remote-operated combat robots controlled by a psychically-linked living controller behind the lines. It was only Iyanden's chronic manpower shortages which led them to refit them as necromantic engines. :)

In addition, the original background for Titans was that Eldar Phantoms were operated by semi-autonomous Clans (echoing the Legions of the Adeptus Mechanicus standing separate from the Army and Marines). Forge World depict them as being a Warrior Aspect. You can explain the difference as the Clans being absorbed into the greater Craftworld society and Path system in the millennia after the Fall.

Sir_Turalyon
05-02-2014, 13:03
I'm pretty sure that the Vyper was a relatively late development by the Craftworlders..?

Notes in White Dwarf accompanying the 4th ed. Codex: Eldar noted that Iyanden was working on developing close combat Wraithguard - which would seem to imply that Wraithblades are a fairly recent development; 40K timeline snarl up not withstanding...

One of causes of Fall was, Eldar civilisation has moved beyond need of fighting their wars or doing physical work personally - both were done by robots. They had pleasure vehicles and knowledge how to make manned combat variants, all know-how about making personal weapons, armour and fighting wraith constructs, but they did not need to use it. There were no production variants immediately after the fall. So I guess most Eldar vehicles are post-Fall developments derived from pre-Fall technology. Notice the similarities and differences with Dark Eldar weapons and vehicles - they are rooted in the same pre-fall designs, but were developed to different needs only after the Fall.

Much of Eldar heavy stuff (tanks and Titans) might have been designed around time of Heresy, they did intervene on Emperor's side and it might ahve been their first big war after the Fall. So during Crusade era they might not yet have their tanks, or specialised flyers, or many Exarches (how long it takes for Eldar to get trapped in Patch?), or many wraith constructs (how many Eldar already died after the Fall and had their souls trapped in waystones?).

T10
05-02-2014, 13:45
Wait for the Grat Dark Eldar Codex RetCon a within the next couple of dozen megaseconds.

-T10

Inquisitor Engel
05-02-2014, 13:52
Dark Eldar didn't exist at all during the Heresy era, as they were only started in M36 when Vect founded the first Kabal. The equipment that the noble houses of Commorragh would have used could be pretty similar, but the social organisation was markedly different back then. And the nobles probably had little reason to go raiding into the realspace.

"Wolf at the Door" in "Tales of Heresy" has Dark Eldar raiding a human world for generations. They're very, very clearly Dark Eldar as we know them today. As you say, they wouldn't be Kabals, but from a gameplay perspective, no one should see any difference.


The Eldar founded the Path only after the Fall, unless the fluff changed recently. The first Path opened was the Path of the Warrior, so there might have been Aspect Warriors, but it's unlikely that the aspects would be the same, and even more unlikely that they managed to found shrines on all Craftworlds. The second is almost impossible if you assume, like some older fluff did, that the spread of the Aspects only happened after the destruction of the Shrine of the Asur.

Many Craftworlds fled well before the Fall, sometimes several hundred years. Mymeara has the normal Eldar paths, even though it rarely, if ever, had contact with other Craftworlds. You've also got Ulthwe warning Fulgrim pretty much as we see them today.


This makes the existence of Wraithlords and Wraithguard highly unlikely.

Excellent point.


Of course, most of the Horus Heresy writers ignored all that out of ignorance, thinking for some reason that the Fall happened in ancient history rather than right before the Great Crusade (see "Fulgrim", "A Thousand Sons" and "Legion" for insance), so you have modern Path-following Craftworlders running around in the books.

The mistake we make as readers is to assume that the Fall and the outset of the Great Crusade were almost simultaneous, whereas we know that the Eye of Terror was visible to Perturabo as soon as his pod crash landed, and could be seen by The Lion as well. No culture that grew up in its shadow even viewed it as an anomaly, so it would have to have been there for a century or so. I think it's more likely that the Fall happened and then it took a couple of centuries for the Emperor to "finish" the Primarch experiment, finish conquering Terra/Luna and then the Sol system THEN the Crusade began.

The Fall coming prior to a critical stage in Primarch development would actually make sense, not only from the above, but deprived of one galaxy-spanning empire to corrupt and so flourish, the Chaos Gods would have been willing to make a deal with The Emperor for the opportunity to do so with mankind.

Hengist
05-02-2014, 14:12
Oh I just realised that in 30K Ahra is the phoenix lord for Scorpions. I would love to have both Ahra and his scorps. So much anger and rage in an eldar.

Is there a canonical date for Arhra's disappearance? Is Arhra/Drazhar noticeably angry anyway? Codex Deldar portrays him as an obsessive killer, not a frothing berserker. That said, giving Crusade-era Scorpions different, Incubus-esque rules might be a nice bit of chrome, however.


The term Dark Eldar didn't exist until Vect took power.

I've no idea where it says this, but even if true - and I'd always assumed they just called themselves 'Eldar' anyway - why should it make a difference to their military organisation?


Also, I'm not sure that the society was the same in the old aristocratic system, as the new society is all about upward mobility, which would seem much more insurmountable before Vect shook things up a lot.

To the limited extent they've been portrayed in the Heresy series, those guys who lived in Cormorragh in M31 seem pretty similar to the ones who lived there in M41. If those are the in-universe statements we have to go on, and there are no other in-universe statements to definitively contradict them, why make trouble by assuming that they should be different, particularly since we're talking about Deldar military organisation, not the whole breadth of their society.

naloth
05-02-2014, 14:17
No there aren't. There's exactly one original hypothesis proposed by a, shall we say, slightly unreliable magos biologis who discovered that all Orks are slightly psychic and that both proximity to other orkoids (inc. grots, squigs, etc.) and the numbers of same governed how immature Ork spores developed. <snip>
Don't fall for it.

You may not like that bit of fluff... and I'm not especially tied to it, but it has been that way and repeated quite a bit... The racial description includes:
"Orks lack individual psychic power, being denied such abilities by the Old Ones. However, they do have a sort of collaborative, collective psychic ability, meaning that if enough Orks believe something is true, then it will actually become so, brought into power by their gestalt psychic ability. For example, Ork rockets painted yellow create bigger explosions, simply because the vast majority of Orks think they do. This is also why much of the Orks' seemingly ramshackle technology will do terrible damage in the hands of Orks, but will cease to function when used by other races."

Azazyll
05-02-2014, 14:54
Is there a canonical date for Arhra's disappearance? Is Arhra/Drazhar noticeably angry anyway? Codex Deldar portrays him as an obsessive killer, not a frothing berserker. That said, giving Crusade-era Scorpions different, Incubus-esque rules might be a nice bit of chrome, however.

He's portrayed as much angrier in the most recent eldar codex - karandras uses his anger against him in a duel


I've no idea where it says this, but even if true - and I'd always assumed they just called themselves 'Eldar' anyway - why should it make a difference to their military organisation?

It says that nowhere. And there is absolutely nothing to indicate that the nobles were "less interested" in realspace raiding, nor is there any reason they would be. We know Jaghatai Khan was lost following Dark Eldar (specifically called out as Dark Eldar) back through a webway tunnel after a devastating rage on Chogoris where thousands of humans were carried off. Other primarchs also encountered Deldar, but I can't remember off the top of my head. Dark Eldar were clearly up to their tricks already by that point, less than a thousand years after the fall.

Organization would probably be different (not called archons presumably, who knows about true blood distinctions), but technology and fighting style probably weren't

Theocracity
05-02-2014, 15:04
You may not like that bit of fluff... and I'm not especially tied to it, but it has been that way and repeated quite a bit... The racial description includes:
"Orks lack individual psychic power, being denied such abilities by the Old Ones. However, they do have a sort of collaborative, collective psychic ability, meaning that if enough Orks believe something is true, then it will actually become so, brought into power by their gestalt psychic ability. For example, Ork rockets painted yellow create bigger explosions, simply because the vast majority of Orks think they do. This is also why much of the Orks' seemingly ramshackle technology will do terrible damage in the hands of Orks, but will cease to function when used by other races."

Can you cite that? The whole 'Ork psychic technology' debate has been had several times before and I don't recall that passage ever being raised.

For what its worth, my opinion on the whole 'Ork technology doesn't work for other species' thing is more a function of biology and mindset than psychic ability. An ork's resilient frame and reckless nature means that a peace of technology that's hazardously malfunctioning from a human's perspective is likely working just fine for an Ork.

naloth
05-02-2014, 15:24
Can you cite that? The whole 'Ork psychic technology' debate has been had several times before and I don't recall that passage ever being raised.
Sure, that particular piece is from an article on a 40k wiki (easier to access at work), but it's basically paraphrasing stuff dating back to 'Ere we go where red is explicitly stated to only be more effective because of Ork racial beliefs. Likewise the yellow thingy is from something Forgeworld put out a while back. The wiki draws on several GW sources which are cited at the bottom:
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Ork_%28Warhammer_40,000%29

I remember at least one article about Imperial Technomages cracking open a Ork weapons to find that the "guts" were mostly loose bolts and wiring, but alas I'm at work and I cannot easily go through a bunch of books and magazines (WD) right now to find it.


For what its worth, my opinion on the whole 'Ork technology doesn't work for other species' thing is more a function of biology and mindset than psychic ability. An ork's resilient frame and reckless nature means that a peace of technology that's hazardously malfunctioning from a human's perspective is likely working just fine for an Ork.
It may be retconned in that way at some ponit, but it's hard to see Orks really caring about that and it wouldn't prevent someone from looking inside to see how the underlying technology works. Really, Orks build stuff so large and crudely you would think (if it's sound science) that it would be easy to reverse engineer.

Theocracity
05-02-2014, 16:04
Sure, that particular piece is from an article on a 40k wiki (easier to access at work), but it's basically paraphrasing stuff dating back to 'Ere we go where red is explicitly stated to only be more effective because of Ork racial beliefs. Likewise the yellow thingy is from something Forgeworld put out a while back. The wiki draws on several GW sources which are cited at the bottom:
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Ork_%28Warhammer_40,000%29

Awesome, thanks. Unfortunately that wiki isn't too specific about citing what parts come direct from GW books and what comes from fan culture, which is why I asked - lexicanum does the same thing.

I know the 'red ones go fasta' thing is pretty well established, though I think it's never directly stated that this is a psychic effect - there's still a bit of ambiguity there. The yellow paint is a new one on me though, I'll have to do a closer read of IA8.


I remember at least one article about Imperial Technomages cracking open a Ork weapons to find that the "guts" were mostly loose bolts and wiring, but alas I'm at work and I cannot easily go through a bunch of books and magazines (WD) right now to find it.

Yup, I think that's the xenology article with the unreliable narrator that was referenced.



It may be retconned in that way at some ponit, but it's hard to see Orks really caring about that and it wouldn't prevent someone from looking inside to see how the underlying technology works. Really, Orks build stuff so large and crudely you would think (if it's sound science) that it would be easy to reverse engineer.

Oh yeah, that's pure speculation on my part, though I think its logical and can explain at least part of it. As for the ability to reverse engineer things, well, keep in mind it's the Imperium we're talking about - treating technology as a tool instead of as a religious mystery isn't in their nature ;).

Edit: And even if you had a layman or a radical techpriest willing to investigate ork technology, it would probably be akin to trying to defuse a bomb built by a crazy person.

"I've discovered the way to turn on the Ork force field, and made the great revelation of how they fit so much power into a portable unit! Unfortunately that discovery is that they use no shielding whatsoever, and I'm probably going to die of radiation poisoning if I can't flip the fuse box and shut it off."

"...Okay, I've figured out the reason why I can't find a fuse box - it doesn't exist. I have to guess which wire in this rats nest will cut the power in a way that doesn't cause a deadly overload. On the plus side, it will likely be a less painful death than the radiation."

Poseidal
05-02-2014, 16:07
I've no idea where it says this, but even if true - and I'd always assumed they just called themselves 'Eldar' anyway - why should it make a difference to their military organisation?


I think it was in the timeline section that it was Vect or his sect that coined the term 'Dark Eldar'. In terms of the military organisation, they don't have a traditional one per se; not even something as loose as the militia or warriors of the craftworlds.

Their organisation is something like a mafia gang crossed with mega-corporation who ally with the local sports teams (wych cults, including the reavers who are 'racers') and mad scientist and his creations.

This simply didn't exist in the same way before the Kabal system, albeit some of the noble houses re-branded themselves as kabals; before they would be more similar to the militia in Craftworld Eldar, as they have a direct analogue in the nobles houses in the craftworlds, who aren't directly militaristic in themselves as a single organisation (except maybe Titan clans).

So as we have a direct comparison from pre-fall structure, with both CWE and DE ancestors having noble houses, and the existing noble houses in CWE not being directly influencing on 'military' type actions (which in CWE are implied as subject to non-house positions such as Farseers, Autarchs or the Avatar/Khainite sects) it stands to reason the Commoraghan equivalents would be somewhat similar.

OuroborosTriumphant
05-02-2014, 16:22
Nocturne was the victim of raids by Eldar slavers (who they called Dusk Wraiths) during Vulkan's childhood there, prior to him being found by the Emperor, so it that' further evidence that the Dark Eldar lifestyle as it currently exists (even if not under that name til Vect's rise to power) predates the Great Crusade.

In addition, the Dark Eldar have always viewed themselves as the direct heirs to the Eldar Empire and I'm pretty sure their way of life is pretty much that of the Eldar Empire circa the Fall.

Aesthetically, there is a clear similarity between Eldar and Dark Eldar aircraft so we can assume they descend from the same pre-Fall technology. Do we know if the eldar grav-tank chassis (Wave Serpent/Falcon/Fire Prism/Night-Spinner) predates the Fall?

It'd be odd if the Vyper is post-Fall creation, since the Venom and the Vyper are so clearly related.

naloth
05-02-2014, 16:25
Awesome, thanks. Unfortunately that wiki isn't too specific about citing what parts come direct from GW books and what comes from fan culture, which is why I asked - lexicanum does the same thing. Yes, I'm just away from my library at the moment. I'll see about looking it up later. IIRC the first references are in "Ere We Go which describes Ork Tech as half function and half belief.


Yup, I think that's the xenology article with the unreliable narrator that was referenced. Many Xeno articles were done from the viewpoint of Imperial Forces. I'm not sure why you consider this one any more unreliable than the others?

It's far more reasonable to assume that it's canon for its time and that in the future they may take Orks a much different direction. Really, since the current 'dex is 4th and it's been years I'm not quite sure what they will do with them. Perhaps they are happy building on the existing foundation or they might decide it's not "grimdark" enough. Orks after all, have been quite entertaining (bordering on silly at times) even if they are a staple of the universe.


Oh yeah, that's pure speculation on my part, though I think its logical and can explain at least part of it. As for the ability to reverse engineer things, well, keep in mind it's the Imperium we're talking about - treating technology as a tool instead of as a religious mystery isn't in their nature ;).
True, but there's a difference between "this is full of loose junk from our stuff" and "this is indescribably complex". Any given Ork device could be either.

Chem-Dog
05-02-2014, 16:27
"Wolf at the Door" in "Tales of Heresy" has Dark Eldar raiding a human world for generations. They're very, very clearly Dark Eldar as we know them today. As you say, they wouldn't be Kabals, but from a gameplay perspective, no one should see any difference.

Would it not be reasonable to assume that the Eldar who are abroad in the galaxy pillaging and whatnot Circa the Great Crusade would most likely be those who didn't give a monkeys' about the fall? The craftworlders are regrouping, the others are still living it up the way they always did.



The mistake we make as readers is to assume that the Fall and the outset of the Great Crusade were almost simultaneous, whereas we know that the Eye of Terror was visible to Perturabo as soon as his pod crash landed, and could be seen by The Lion as well. No culture that grew up in its shadow even viewed it as an anomaly, so it would have to have been there for a century or so. I think it's more likely that the Fall happened and then it took a couple of centuries for the Emperor to "finish" the Primarch experiment, finish conquering Terra/Luna and then the Sol system THEN the Crusade began.

The Fall coming prior to a critical stage in Primarch development would actually make sense, not only from the above, but deprived of one galaxy-spanning empire to corrupt and so flourish, the Chaos Gods would have been willing to make a deal with The Emperor for the opportunity to do so with mankind.

I wonder if the Fall provided the opportunity for the Chaos Powers to scatter the Primarchs, there would definitely be some surplus energy floating around at that time.

I know it's hokey oldschool 40K lore, but Mega Armour was originally stated as being created in response to exposure to Astartes and thus would absent from Ork armouries for most of the Crusade (Orks meet Marines, get annihilated, nobody left to think Mega Armour is a good idea), I doubt it would be a cultural norm until quite a while after (when Orks would be pitted against Marine forces smaller than Expedition Fleet size). I seem to remember that Tellyporta and lifta tech were fairly recent additions to Ork tech too (one could infer that the reawakening of the Necrons was responsible for this, to some degree).

Theocracity
05-02-2014, 16:37
Yes, I'm just away from my library at the moment. I'll see about looking it up later.

Heh, same unfortunately. I'm mostly relying on half-remembered Background forum discussions, myself.


Many Xeno articles were done from the viewpoint of Imperial Forces. I'm not sure why you consider this one any more unreliable than the others?

My understanding of Xenology in particular is that the narrator is shown as particularly unreliable. I can't quote specifically though.


It's far more reasonable to assume that it's canon for its time and that in the future they may take Orks a much different direction. Really, since the current 'dex is 4th and it's been years I'm not quite sure what they will do with them. Perhaps they are happy building on the existing foundation or they might decide it's not "grimdark" enough. Orks after all, have been quite entertaining (bordering on silly at times) even if they are a staple of the universe.

Completely agree. I think that's a great example of why 'canon' is a kind of timey-wimey concept to GW. That won't stand for us fans, though - it's out calling to figure out a way to square the circle of wacky and grimdark ;).


True, but there's a difference between "this is full of loose junk from our stuff" and "this is indescribably complex". Any given Ork device could be either.

Yup. I know there are examples of humans using the more easy to understand versions of Ork tech - briefly driving trukks or using shootas. I think one of the Gaunt books (or was it Cain?) had them driving a trukk, but having difficulty steering due to the lack of shocks or suspension (which wouldn't be a problem for a greenskin).

Theocracity
05-02-2014, 16:45
I know it's hokey oldschool 40K lore, but Mega Armour was originally stated as being created in response to exposure to Astartes and thus would absent from Ork armouries for most of the Crusade (Orks meet Marines, get annihilated, nobody left to think Mega Armour is a good idea), I doubt it would be a cultural norm until quite a while after (when Orks would be pitted against Marine forces smaller than Expedition Fleet size). I seem to remember that Tellyporta and lifta tech were fairly recent additions to Ork tech too (one could infer that the reawakening of the Necrons was responsible for this, to some degree).

I figure that if the Gargants are inspired by titans, then mega-armor can be inspired by terminators. Which is not to say that they didn't have big machines or heavy armor back in the day - just that it assumed its current form after the Heresy, when the chaos in the Imperium gave Ork culture time to breath.

You're right that tellyportas are a new thing - though I believe they came from the Mek Orkimedes (and popularized by Nazdreg), and haven't been specifically referenced as Necron-inspired. I'm not solid on lifta tech but I buy that they're of the same generation too.

Poseidal
05-02-2014, 16:47
Raiders are adapted from 'leisure' craft of pre-fall Eldar, so maybe a less 'aggressive' looking raider would be appropriate?

TimLeeson
05-02-2014, 18:00
There were a very small number of necrons around at the time. I am sure the 5th ed codex makes reference to this. Personally I like to think the 2nd edition "Raider" Necrons are what they looked like.

DoctorTom
05-02-2014, 18:34
I figure that if the Gargants are inspired by titans, then mega-armor can be inspired by terminators. Which is not to say that they didn't have big machines or heavy armor back in the day - just that it assumed its current form after the Heresy, when the chaos in the Imperium gave Ork culture time to breath.

It could also be partially inspired by Squats' Exo-Armor. Orks were busy fighting Squats in the past (The Imperium fought them back then too - some squats went with the Chaos side back then.)

Theocracity
05-02-2014, 18:40
It could also be partially inspired by Squats' Exo-Armor. Orks were busy fighting Squats in the past (The Imperium fought them back then too - some squats went with the Chaos side back then.)

I think its a bit risky to claim in-universe inspiration from a faction whose name has become a byword for 'removed from canon.' ;)

Mr_Rose
05-02-2014, 19:05
The thing about dark Eldar is that they did exist prior to the fall; they were just called Eldar though.
You gotta remember that The Fall wasn't just that final instant when Slaanesh awoke; it was the entire preceding ten to fifteen thousand years as Eldar society got progressively more corrupt. The Dark Eldar of Comorragh are those Eldar that survived the absorption of the Crone Worlds into the Eye (somehow) plus those who were already living in private palace-realms in the webway at the time and they were, almost to a man, corrupt as all hell. That some of them had taken to a life of raiding any system they could get to already shouldn't be a surprise, really.

Similarly, now I think about it, I bet much of the foundations of The Path were already laid out on the craftworlds by that time. Remember that the craftworlds were originally bulk carriers and trade vessels before they were continent-sized cities, and started out much smaller. But the point is that, being ships, they had crew and captains and hierarchy and all that goes with that, which no doubt included specialists in some of the ship's more esoteric functions. And, because Eldar live for potentially thousands of years they probably cross-trained and swapped specialisations to keep from getting bored. Then suddenly the relatively tiny original craftworlds are full of thousands (maybe even millions) of refugees from a hedonistic hellscape; they're gonna have to enforce discipline like whoa. Even without the few idiots that would have wanted to continue their old lives but In Spaaace! there is no way to take a ship designed for maybe a couple hundred, stuff it full of ten or a hundred times it's design capacity and still have it function, without harsh rule enforcement.

Aryllon
05-02-2014, 19:09
Wraith constructs do have to be post-fall, but they don't have to be post-heresy.

A good indicator of how much time the Eldar have had to develop their wraith constructs is to look at the extent to which Slaanesh is entrenched as a chaos power by the time of Istvaan; the Eldar began to use spirit stones (which power wraith constructs) as a direct result of the birth of Slaanesh, so both the god and the wraith constructs could have been around for about the same amount of time.

That said, just because there are definitely wraithlords at the time of the Heresy, it doesn't mean any of the other wraith units exist. The need for wraith support has increased over time so it would make sense that some wraith units would have been introduced latterly to meet the demand (not even Spiritseers would necessarily have existed by the time of the heresy, they certainly don't in Gav Thorpe's post-heresy Alaitoc trilogy - the path might have been founded later when regular seers realised how arduous the task was, combined with acknowledging the increased frequency of the need to raise the dead).

Lord Damocles
05-02-2014, 20:44
Sure, that particular piece is from an article on a 40k wiki (easier to access at work), but it's basically paraphrasing stuff dating back to 'Ere we go where red is explicitly stated to only be more effective because of Ork racial beliefs. Likewise the yellow thingy is from something Forgeworld put out a while back. The wiki draws on several GW sources which are cited at the bottom:
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Ork_%28Warhammer_40,000%29
The 40K Wiki is well known to include inaccuracies, misrepresentations, and outright fan fic in it's articles.

Without any decent referencing (which the article on Orks lacks), I wouldn't trust it as a source as far as I could throw it.

The very first sentence under 'History' cites in-universe (and contradicted) Orkoid legends as fact, which isn't exactly encouraging...

naloth
05-02-2014, 21:15
The 40K Wiki is well known to include inaccuracies, misrepresentations, and outright fan fic in it's articles.
While I sense your urge to completely dismiss it, it meshes pretty well with what I recall being presented about her technology.

Aside from that, there's quite a few references are the from GW source material (red paint, makes it faster because Orks will it to... likewise with Yellow paint... the Imperial report referenced above even if you consider it somewhat unreliable).

Shibboleth
06-02-2014, 04:26
I think its a bit risky to claim in-universe inspiration from a faction whose name has become a byword for 'removed from canon.' ;) They're not removed from canon, just from current history.
They existed, right up until the rise of Tyranids...

Abaraxas
06-02-2014, 10:16
*cough cough* still exist :chrome:

Greyhound
06-02-2014, 10:18
talking of races that appeared/disappeared.

What about the squats, were they re-discovered pre or post heresy?

Mr_Rose
06-02-2014, 11:00
talking of races that appeared/disappeared.

What about the squats, were they re-discovered pre or post heresy?

Pretty sure it was during the Great Crusade that they were rediscovered. Any earlier and there wouldn't have been a recognise able human authority to negotiate with whereas any later and the extreme xenophobia of the post-Emperor Imperium would have tried to either wipe them out wholesale or turn them into fully Imperial worlds (like they did with the ratling and ogryn home worlds) rather than allowing them to exist as a client culture like they did.

Greyhound
06-02-2014, 11:27
So maybe, in a completely insane and hypothetical world forgeworld could be making squat models for heresy... A bit like they did for chaos dwarfs?

All right that's never gonna happen but still it would have been doable.

brionl
06-02-2014, 19:43
The thing about dark Eldar is that they did exist prior to the fall; they were just called Eldar though.
You gotta remember that The Fall wasn't just that final instant when Slaanesh awoke; it was the entire preceding ten to fifteen thousand years as Eldar society got progressively more corrupt.

I was thinking of posting something similar, but you did a pretty good job of it. The Fall was a result of too much sax and violins. The "Dark Eldar" faction was already pretty violent, they've only gotten more extreme since then. The "Craftworld Eldar" faction was already into discipline, that's how they avoided being corrupted and sucked into the Fall along with 99.99% of their race.

Agonius
07-02-2014, 08:50
On the same note, there would not yet be any Incubi.

In horus heresy books dark eldar lord had elite guard that were pretty much similar to incubi, maybe the term "incubi" didnt exist, but "incubi" as elite did exist back then, apparently.

OuroborosTriumphant
07-02-2014, 11:05
In horus heresy books dark eldar lord had elite guard that were pretty much similar to incubi, maybe the term "incubi" didnt exist, but "incubi" as elite did exist back then, apparently.

Interesting. Do you recall off the top of your head which book? If they are incubi, then that suggests that the training of the Phoenix Lords, the establishment of Aspect Warriors and the fall of Ahra all happened pretty promptly after Fall.

Mr_Rose
07-02-2014, 11:13
Incubi aren't even the only elite "guard" unit in the current codex so there's no reason to conflate anything that doesn't name or describe them specifically with them. Could have been the then-equivalent of the Court, or maybe a unit of sorta-Trueborn or maybe early Wyches.
Things that definitely don't exist then though: Asdrubael Vect and Lady Malys won't be around (he's still a slave somewhere and she probably hasn't been born yet) nor will most of the other DE special characters except the master homonculus himself. He might look a little less messed up though. Anyway, the point is that none of their unique wargear is likely to exist either since most of them either found it or had it custom made themselves.

Camman1984
08-02-2014, 16:53
A lot of the 'orks copied this from humans' stuff is probably to do with the human superiority complex over 'lesser species'. Humans always look at other animals and try to find patterns of human behaviour. Like people living near monkeys might look at them and say "they are copying our use of tools" ignorant to the fact that they might have been using them for thousands of years.

I wonder if the first people that saw gargants looked up and said "oh! They have a titan" so it stuck. Primitive orks use effigies and statues in the fluff so it wouldnt be a huge leap to build a walking statue then stick guns all over it.

Theocracity
08-02-2014, 21:18
A lot of the 'orks copied this from humans' stuff is probably to do with the human superiority complex over 'lesser species'. Humans always look at other animals and try to find patterns of human behaviour. Like people living near monkeys might look at them and say "they are copying our use of tools" ignorant to the fact that they might have been using them for thousands of years.

I wonder if the first people that saw gargants looked up and said "oh! They have a titan" so it stuck. Primitive orks use effigies and statues in the fluff so it wouldnt be a huge leap to build a walking statue then stick guns all over it.

I think you're bringing a bit too much sociology class into the discussion of a fictional universe. Ethnocentrism's a very interesting lens through which to look at the way people rewrite history, but when we're dealing with a world where the history in question was literally made up it's not particularly useful.

The way you describe gargant development might be an interesting way to frame a story from an Ork's point of view, though.

Mr_Rose
08-02-2014, 21:56
It's also worthwhile to note that, despite various attempts, the imperium has only failed to copy the Orks by dint of sheer inability, not any lack of desire. I'm pretty sure that several magos' were literally drooling (until their aides pointed it out and they closed that valve at least) over orky "traktor" technology as well as their vastly superior "tellyportas" – particularly the man ork-portable weaponised version. Not to mention what the imperium would do with the ability to breed guardsmen that knew how to strip and clean a lasgun from birth, without being taught….

corps
11-02-2014, 00:11
I m curious about the eldar(s) technology during that time. Eldar grow technologies, Exodites it depends. Dark eldar use advanced technologies but don't grow ones. So how can they have evolved Venom and Vyper from the same pleasure vehicules roots? What were the technologies same roots?

Mr_Rose
11-02-2014, 11:35
I m curious about the eldar(s) technology during that time. Eldar grow technologies, Exodites it depends. Dark eldar use advanced technologies but don't grow ones. So how can they have evolved Venom and Vyper from the same pleasure vehicules roots? What were the technologies same roots?

The major technology that craftworlders have and comorrites don't is wraithbone. That's basically it. Why is that significant? Why is that the principal difference? Easy: the Warp.
Wraithbone is spontaneously generated where the warp and realspace overlap but only in minute quantities and only if you hold a stable overlap for a long time. However, you can, with specialised psykers, accelerate and shape it's formation into anything you desire. The Dark Eldar don't use psykers as anything other than a tasty snack or garnish to a larger meal, so they obviously can't do this.
The thing is, even with acceleration, wraithbone growth is still rather too slow to be the primary structural element of anything major like a tank or Titan. Despite the confused reports of the departmento analyticus, the Eldar don't armour their tanks in wraithbone; it's far too precious for that. What wraithbone is used for, however, is a power supply. A self-replenishing one that can be inhabited by the souls of the dead to make any item built around it at the very least self-aware or, with enough, fully sapient in its own right.
The craftworlders have developed a whole range of pychoplastic materials based on wraithbone but neither as hard to get or to shape. The comorrites are simply using the very same materials but without the wraithbone alloy component and are shaping the stuff the old-fashioned way; mass production factories operated by slave labour.
As to how the Dark Eldar maintain their tech base? I'm forced to conclude that either wraithbone manipulation is a relatively new thing for the Eldar and that they used more conventional means previously or that the Dark Eldar are simply smart enough and know enough about how their stuff works to adapt to more conventional power supplies like batteries or fuel tanks. Remember that the imperium is the only state whose technology is created by a pan-galactic cargo cult, hoping to maybe, one day, call the big metal bird back to shower them with gifts once more. The Eldar, Tau, Necrons, even Orks all know how their stuff works and can make more, or change what they do have, as necessary.
That's what I get from the fluff I've read, at least.

Camman1984
11-02-2014, 11:57
It is fun to apply real life concepts to a fictional universe, for me it makes it seem more real and allows even more attachment to the wonderfully rich universe that has been created over the last couple of decades.

Azazyll
12-02-2014, 05:33
I think you're bringing a bit too much sociology class into the discussion of a fictional universe. Ethnocentrism's a very interesting lens through which to look at the way people rewrite history, but when we're dealing with a world where the history in question was literally made up it's not particularly useful.

The way you describe gargant development might be an interesting way to frame a story from an Ork's point of view, though.

It's incredibly useful. Imagining the fluff as coming from an in-universe, biased perspective is the only way to make Matt Ward's writing bearable :D

Seriously, though, I find the entire premise of your counter point stifling.

Theocracity
12-02-2014, 07:00
It's incredibly useful. Imagining the fluff as coming from an in-universe, biased perspective is the only way to make Matt Ward's writing bearable :D

Seriously, though, I find the entire premise of your counter point stifling.

That's not my intention! In general I prefer it when the setting is wide open for different interpretations. I just think that, lacking any evidence in the text, its not very useful to this particular discussion to create counterfactuals that aren't supported by the text.

We're told from several sources about the origin of Gargants and humanity's long-standing use of titans. Since the history itself is fictional, the only way we can discern if it's the truth is by looking for vagueness or undercutting examples (which, to my knowledge, don't exist) or by inventing them ourselves (in which case we should acknowledge that it's not supported by the text).

In general I think 40K fluff is written to be vague enough that it has lots of cracks to interpret with. I don't think that exists in this case, and I think using real life trends to support the idea of 'Orks inspired titans' is just a way of making particularly intelligent fan fiction. Not that there's anything wrong with that - I love intelligent fan fiction - but it's not great for discussions of the text.