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View Full Version : I don't understand Line of Sight.



Greyhound
09-02-2014, 22:30
Look, line of sight (LoS) seemed to be so obvious when I picked up the book a year ago I thought I would never have an issue with it. However I constantly have to overthink it and we probably don't play it right.

Examples:
1) Buildings
We used the Sanctum Imperialis on the weekend which is built standard as L shape.
Marines were setup in the building like this:
M
M
MMMM

^ ^
O O


With Orks coming from the bottom (the O letter, and arrows showing the direction), how many space marines can shoot, 4 or 6?
Do we consider the 2 on the North-South part of the building as sniping from the window? The windows are pretty large, so technically if you abstract the 4 space marines at the bottom, the 2 at the back, might be able to see through and shoot at enemies far away. Since they are on a level they may not be able to see opponents very close though.

When the orks move up 2-3" away from the building, the models, as they are can't see the orks below but that's because they are on a silly round base. If you tilt the space marine so that his face is against the window he can see all the way down. We considered that anyone "at" the window can see from the window point of view. And can be shot by anyone who can see the window.

It gets more complicated though, as the level is wide enough, you can compress more marines on the row by putting the round bases in more ergonomic position:
M-M-M
-M-M-M
so you don't end up as 2 rows, but nearly do, none of the marines really block LOS from the other one, you just end up with some marines not as close as possible to the window. We considered all of them "at" the window... correct?

3) I watched this batrep on the weekend: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7OegMqf7_Q
In this bat rep some ork lootas are set up completely at the back of the board. There is a giant horde of orks in front of them, and terrain. However somehow they pick up their target without any problem.

I would have thought that the amount of orks, terrain, and vehicle blocks completely line of sight. If you lower yourself to the miniature you are 28mm from the ground, that's so low, how can you expect to actually see anything?

I ask because I've been using Big Gunz in my ork army and picked up Kannons and I can never see jack with them. The grot who man the guns are so low I have always way too much stuffs in the way to get a clear shot. Maybe I play it wrong.

4) Defence line/barricades
My grots can't see over them, they are just too small, as modeled. However in reality the grots would easily climb over the rubles and shoot (and be shot with cover), which is how we play it, but do we play it right?
- if we are correct how far from a ruin/barricade/Aegis defense line/ tree do you abstract the miniature and consider that they take position to shoot (and be shot) and does this only apply if you are in contact with the terrain?
if that's the case, am I right that the said grots can't be shot (nor shoot) if they are half an inch behind a barricade (but still in the area terrain).

confused, sorry.

agurus1
10-02-2014, 07:38
The first rule in Warhammer is essentially "do what makes the game the most fun for both players."

So that being said I think the way you are handling it works if it works for both you and you opponent. However my understanding of LOS is that truly a model must be able to see another in order to shoot it. Remember however that as far as the rule book is concerned models in the same squad don't block LOS. So in your first example if the Orks were far enough away for the marines on northwest but behind the window to see then yes they can shoot. However we play that if the Orks go close enough where the model on the second level can't see them they can be shot at. We rationalize it because the soldiers on the second level would most likely have to unduly expose themselves to enemy fire to shoot at the Orks so close to the wall (leaning out the window and so on). As for the Guns, that is a problem that I can't really help you with unless you modeled for advantage and stuck a grot on a barrel lol. You could always place one grot on the far side of the aegis?

Greyhound
10-02-2014, 12:32
thanks. It means all my dynamic poses are screwed up too :shifty:

It's a weird system, how can you transfer your eyes inside a building to see what the guy can/cannot see?

totgeboren
10-02-2014, 12:42
I hate true LOS, talk about uncinematic.
The LOS-rules in 4ed were the best, too bad people just could't be bothered reading them.

At least enclosed buildings work ok-ish now, so that's something 6ed has got going for it.

ehlijen
10-02-2014, 13:16
TLOS is not all that bad. It's an abstraction, yes. But so is the turn based system to begin with. In a miniature driven game, I don't see a problem with determining LOS by using the miniatures.

The real evil is that GW brought in TLOS rules only very shortly after releasing their cities of death terrain with all its sharply spiked spires and battlements...check at your own risk.

forbin
10-02-2014, 13:46
I'd posit that TLOS need true scale models...... oh dear thats not happened since TLOS was introduced , and with fancy poses you could got for the Necron head on a base ...... hehe ;-)

forbin

druchii
11-02-2014, 22:16
TLOS can definitely screw you out of some shooting. It can also give your opponent an easy cover save.

I remember right when people started using aegis they'd flip their lid when I started taking 4+ cover saves from their dudes behind the aegis lines as the majority of them could only draw LOW to the top 20-30% of my models over the line. God forbid you've got things like grots or nurglings behind the line, as they can't see or be seen!

I've witnessed people using this to their advantage also by placing a bunch of scarabs behind an aegis line and filling out the squad with spyders. Can't even shoot at the scarabs without barrage or scattering blasts!

d

Greyhound
12-02-2014, 00:45
I'm also using the Ork barricades from GWS and some of these un-even barricades actually stop the orks from shooting due to the slump position of the models, they would in theory be able to look over the barricade but in the current model position their eyes are below the top of the barricade... So they can't shoot?

Malachi
12-02-2014, 01:10
I'd say they can shoot, especially if it's just a question of their slumped poses. agurus1's comment about what's fun for both players rings true for me here: it's typically more fun to roll more dice rather than less, so using weird model/terrain idiosyncracies to block TLOS and deny shooting strikes me as 'gaming the system' and not fun.

If a (slightly) taller marine model can draw LOS on an ork behind a barricade than that same ork should find a way to fire back... and both generals get to roll more dice!

Ssilmath
12-02-2014, 01:46
TLOS can definitely screw you out of some shooting. It can also give your opponent an easy cover save.

Screw you out of shooting? Easy cover saves? The whole point of terrain (Especially LOS blocking) is to prevent armies from just sitting still and blasting away.

druchii
12-02-2014, 01:54
Screw you out of shooting? Easy cover saves? The whole point of terrain (Especially LOS blocking) is to prevent armies from just sitting still and blasting away.

Well I never said I got hosed, but definitely that it's hosed my opponents before! ;) I'm certain they'd call it getting screwed. Still hilarious the table flip my opponent almost enacted when I explained that an aegis gives cover both ways...

d

ehlijen
12-02-2014, 03:23
4th ed had its own set of ridiculous oddities when it came to LOS.
A long, 1" wide stretch of green base with a couple of trees on it could block an inordinate amount of LOS. More than most 6th ed terrain walls would.
A model on the first floor of a building could shoot down through the floor at an enemy on the ground floor, but could not shoot a completely visible model 7" away on the same floor.
A grot on the first floor could see over a monolith parked right out in front of the window to a scarab base directly on the other side of the monolith.

And much of the time, you ended up using TLOS anyway.

I don't miss 4th ed. Yes, 6th ed can be abused. But if you don't like that, don't do it and don't play those who do. You'd likely never have enjoyed those games anyway.

edit:

Well I never said I got hosed, but definitely that it's hosed my opponents before! ;) I'm certain they'd call it getting screwed. Still hilarious the table flip my opponent almost enacted when I explained that an aegis gives cover both ways...

d

Sort of. LOS is measured from one model's eyes to the other model's everything important. So if the shoot is right up to the wall and the target a good way away, then it's highly unlikely the target gets a cover save.

Greyhound
12-02-2014, 04:21
ignore the shadowing unpainted grot, this is the only picture I found on google image:
grot behind ADL on the right side of the picture
http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2013/12/8/563419-Adl%2C%20Gretchen%2C%20Gretchin%2C%20Grots.jpg

Essentially Grots, cannot shot (nor be shot, nor charged) behind an ADL... right?
Sounds so wrong.

Ssilmath
12-02-2014, 04:23
In that case Greyhound, neither can see the other and no shooting can happen. For most models it's not going to happen that way, Grots would be pretty small even if they stood upright.

Greyhound
12-02-2014, 05:23
so sitting on a objective, how could you get to them?
You'd have to walk to the ADL, and even then model to model the eyes of the model may not be able to see the grot, so you can't shoot nor assault, it's impossible to move them from the objective short of barrage?

Ssilmath
12-02-2014, 05:28
You can always move onto the other side of the Defense Line and rapid fire the little buggers into oblivion. Besides, most armies have access to both barrages and units fast enough to get into a position to fire.

Seriously, the game is about more than two armies sitting at arms reach and seeing who brought the best dice rolling list.

Greyhound
12-02-2014, 05:37
Hey I'm the ones with the grots, so I don't mind so much that they generate extra value :)

An ADL can take up to 2 turns to drive around pending terrain.

Ssilmath
12-02-2014, 05:40
An ADL isn't impassible, just walk or drive over it.

Nurgling Chieftain
12-02-2014, 06:12
An ADL isn't impassible...No, but the grots cowering behind it are. You'll need tank shock or jump or something to get through or over.

Ssilmath
12-02-2014, 07:08
No, but the grots cowering behind it are. You'll need tank shock or jump or something to get through or over.

Or just walk up to it and look over the thing to shoot them. Unless they're spaced out exactly 2 inches along an entire ADL stretched out, it's not really going to be a big deal. Most armies have options to deal with something like that. Heck, most lists should have one or two elements that can deal with the grots, whether it be due to speed, jump, barrage, ignore LOS or what else have you.

Greyhound
12-02-2014, 07:11
yes, if they are base to base with each other (or a small gap) you won't be able to jump over them (except jump infantry of course)

T10
12-02-2014, 09:12
I hate true LOS, talk about uncinematic.
The LOS-rules in 4ed were the best, too bad people just could't be bothered reading them.

At least enclosed buildings work ok-ish now, so that's something 6ed has got going for it.

As one of the (apparently few) people that bothered to read the terrain rules for the edition that should-not-have-been, I can only offer the honest and humble opinion that they sucked harder than a black hole at a talent show.

-T10

druchii
12-02-2014, 18:51
4th ed had its own set of ridiculous oddities when it came to LOS.
A long, 1" wide stretch of green base with a couple of trees on it could block an inordinate amount of LOS. More than most 6th ed terrain walls would.
A model on the first floor of a building could shoot down through the floor at an enemy on the ground floor, but could not shoot a completely visible model 7" away on the same floor.
A grot on the first floor could see over a monolith parked right out in front of the window to a scarab base directly on the other side of the monolith.

And much of the time, you ended up using TLOS anyway.

I don't miss 4th ed. Yes, 6th ed can be abused. But if you don't like that, don't do it and don't play those who do. You'd likely never have enjoyed those games anyway.

edit:


Sort of. LOS is measured from one model's eyes to the other model's everything important. So if the shoot is right up to the wall and the target a good way away, then it's highly unlikely the target gets a cover save.

That's my point! Drawing LOS from one model's eyes (oh poor wraithguard! They have no eyes!) to the important bits of another model is precisely what makes aegis lines hilarious. A few improperly placed models behind the higher portions of the walls can easily give an opponent a cover save.

d

Greyhound
13-02-2014, 02:41
That sounds so wrong for a "game"... Especially one so visually rich which encourage modelling.

MasterDecoy
13-02-2014, 04:35
That's my point! Drawing LOS from one model's eyes (oh poor wraithguard! They have no eyes!) to the important bits of another model is precisely what makes aegis lines hilarious. A few improperly placed models behind the higher portions of the walls can easily give an opponent a cover save.

d

Or you know. You could not fire with the models that will grant a cover save. You can do that you know.

Sent from my GT-I9507 using Tapatalk

totgeboren
13-02-2014, 09:49
To be honest now that I thought about it, 4ed had some pretty silly rules when it comes to LoS.
However, TLOS as it is have some annoying things going for it too.

First is the example of a model standing behind one of the higher parts of the agies defence line can give an enemy unit halfway across the board a cover save, and the only thing you need to do is move your own model a millimeter or so to deny the cover. The models are representations, they don't have that exact pose 'in-game' all the time, and this absurd fixation with the precise pose of any given model destroys immersion for me.

Easily fixed by rules though. Like, 'When shooting at an enemy, area terrain the firing model is occupying or terrain within 3" of the firing model is ignored for the purpose of checking LOS or calculating cover. Models completely obscured behind cover can still be targeted provided they are within 3" of the edge of the intervening cover that is closest to the attacking model."

Something like that, to represent the models crawling around, finding cover whilst at the same time attacking the enemy. Stuff like grots being unable to fire from behind a defence line, or say a IG squad vs a traitor IG squad. One is behind cover, which also block half the models from shooting. The other squad is standing on in the open. The squad in the open will be at no disadvantage whilst the squad in cover will have their firepower cut in half.

Having it be worse to be caught in cover than being caught in the open is a really odd phenomena in 6ed.

Another thing that feels weird is for example having my FMC Daemon Prince able to hide behind a Land Raider. Either he is flying, or he is on the ground. I get the rules for him flying, yet I still use TLOS, and the model is clearly planted with both feet on the ground. This is also one of the reasons why FMCs are so good this edition. They get to have their cake and eat it too.

Greyhound
14-02-2014, 01:17
Also shooting through a unit, when does a unit offer a complete "Screen" and when does it offer a cover save.

I'm not trying to pick holes in the game, or gaming an outcome I'm genuinely interested to know who can shoot through 30 boys (I play orks).

Example:
I have 30 boys running up field, each with a small gap between the base, but in several "rows".

when I look from behind (my lootas for instance), I genuinely see a sea of green, but I'm, sure that if i took a picture, and stared long enough, I could potentially see, between 2 shoulders, or between the legs, a tiny piece of my enemy, maybe. I don't know how I could put my eye at table level for each and every 15 lootas, so is there any abstraction i can make and consider that I can always shoot through infantry? Or that infantry tightly packed is always blocking LOS?

Nurgling Chieftain
14-02-2014, 02:27
It's startlingly difficult to pack enough regular infantry to completely block true LoS. If you shine a laser through, you'll usually find lots of gaps. Still, a mob of Orks might do the trick...

Personally, I think it's a bit odd that they won't shoot into close combat, but are perfectly willing to take a shot through the crook of a friendly model's arm...

Greyhound
14-02-2014, 04:13
This is particularly true when we know that Lootas, won't be shooting through "the crook of a friendly model's arm".
They just shoot a massive amount of explosive rounds all over the place hoping that some of them will connect with their targets.

Based on what you say though it seems like infantry can be abstracted and considered as a cover save, yet you can shoot through. So essentially we're saying that the lootas could shoot, and potentially give a 5+ cover save to their enemies and these ones can shoot the lootas and accept to give away a 5+ cover save which the lootas will gladly take if they don't have anything better already.

Is there a case where the opposite is true? i.e:
I have so much space between the boys that shots can be exchanged between the 2 parties without a cover save getting in the way?

Nurgling Chieftain
14-02-2014, 05:38
No; spaces between models in a unit give cover (BRB, pg 18, right column, "Intervening Models", second sentence).

Greyhound
14-02-2014, 10:03
Yeah that's what i thought so there is a degree of abstraction.