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View Full Version : How YOU will deal with the new Dwarfs ?



Soulless
10-02-2014, 21:39
Ok so the book is right around the corner - how your army will adapt and what will you change with the not - op but we must pretend it is new book ? Keep it civil and discuss why the new dwarfs swing the current meta, what tier they are going to be ? WoC killers ? Wood Elves ash try ? Speculate my brothers for the time of the whine is upon us :chrome:

SteveW
10-02-2014, 21:51
You want us to guess how the meta will swing from a book that isn't even out yet?

I will obviously roll them every game by fielding only half their points.

Soulless
10-02-2014, 21:56
trust me fellow - the theory hammer will start - there are players who play more then 10 years and they don't need to put the army on table to know how it will effect the meta - thanks for starting of with "rational" approach - kudos

Captain Collius
10-02-2014, 21:57
The same way I always have shoot my opponent with a tranquilizer gun.

Also how can we know without the book.

IcedCrow
10-02-2014, 23:09
Ill need to read the book first.

Soulless
10-02-2014, 23:27
Let me make it easier - very cheep unit - cheaper then most chariots - vanguard - fly - template attack - can be used multiple time - no breath weapon - S3 - basicly you can drop 3 of them in turn 1 if you win the roll who goes 1.

kylek2235
10-02-2014, 23:35
From reading the rumors, I think the standard Dwarf list will win out as the optimum list. It'll be a castle with warmachines, maybe a few gyro redirectors. Rangers, miners and the vanguarding runes look neat, but I think after the newness of the book fades, so will those variations. Positioning is great, but they lost the anvil moves and I think that's going to hurt the combat dwarf armies.

So the question is: Can I beat the new Dwarf castle? I dunno. I'm already standing on pretty shaky ground by guessing based on the rumors for about a quarter of the book. I don't think it's going to be earth shattering to the current meta, but I guess we'll see

corps
11-02-2014, 00:18
The new flying machine looks impressive. Does someone know anthing about it in terms of rules?

Archon of Death
11-02-2014, 01:16
There are rules online... nerdhammer I think had the WD photos of things like its rules

Kakapo42
11-02-2014, 04:39
Well the book may not be out yet, but there are rules for a couple of the new units in White Dwarf, so perhaps we can start speculating from there?

HurrDurr
11-02-2014, 09:00
At first glance they look like they'll place extremely high on the power scale. But it looks like some of the speculated rules were incorrect so no one is sure.

Odin
11-02-2014, 09:02
Judging by the fact that hammerers are basically ultra cheap GW chaos warriors, with better morale, I may struggle a bit.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

N1AK
11-02-2014, 09:06
there are players who play more then 10 years and they don't need to put the army on table to know how it will effect the meta

There are plenty of players who think they can :) You just have to listen to the major podcasts to get a great insight into the hits and misses of top level players when trying to predict what will influence the meta. There's a reason why both Bad Dice and Heelanhammer have moved away from doing army book reviews at launch: Because what ends up being popular etc isn't what they'd always expect at release.

What we know so far really doesn't tell us enough, in my opinion, to predict changes. On face value it seems like they have some effective tools for dealing with heavy armour and multiple wound creatures but will those be the best choices and appropriately priced? Even if they are, would a Warriors army drop Skullcrushers because of 2 attack Hammerers or would Skullcrushers still be the best option available?

soullessginger
11-02-2014, 11:16
Out manoeuvre them, cast magic in the magic phase,roll dice. I think sometimes they will beat WOC and sometimes they will lose to wood elves.

I suspect they will stay the same sort of army as before, low on movement, high on shooting and armour/toughness. I will probably use the same tactics against them as I did the old Dwarves.

Soulless
11-02-2014, 12:50
Well the dispel may be problem for stunties. No more free DD - the channel like everyone else now. They can get spell eater or diss scroll or both but can't take more then one of each (the rule of unique runic items). Low I means vulnerability to things like I testing spells. On the other side - extremely potent shooting coupled with best anvil in game and one of the best hammer unit (for it's price). I think they may go overboard with this [satire]

Alltaken
11-02-2014, 13:03
Slann them down with lots of spells on low dice counts.

Lore master and ethereal, put him near the tg unit for LoS, or behind something and let the skinks vassal away. Get dragonbane gem. Skinks with lore of heavens will finally be usefull against something, (copters and bombers).

And swap spells for those like melcoths miasma and things from lore of metal maybe, even from lore of fire. Im guessing we'll see msu dwarfs at first.

And some fire protection pretty much

From my servoskull

Spider-pope
11-02-2014, 13:06
Join them. I mean have you seen the new stuff? These are the dwarfs i've wanted to see since 1995.

dementian
11-02-2014, 13:53
Slann them down with lots of spells on low dice counts.

Lore master and ethereal, put him near the tg unit for LoS, or behind something and let the skinks vassal away. Get dragonbane gem. Skinks with lore of heavens will finally be usefull against something, (copters and bombers).

And swap spells for those like melcoths miasma and things from lore of metal maybe, even from lore of fire. Im guessing we'll see msu dwarfs at first.

And some fire protection pretty much

From my servoskull

Runic WM will be magical and I doubt they will always have the fire rune. I wouldn't want my Slann out in the open.

Rumoured Organ Gun is now 2 artillery dice, need to roll to hit. 30" range. But they can get a BS 5 Engineer to share his BS with the crew.

Alltaken
11-02-2014, 14:09
Runic WM will be magical and I doubt they will always have the fire rune. I wouldn't want my Slann out in the open.

Rumoured Organ Gun is now 2 artillery dice, need to roll to hit. 30" range. But they can get a BS 5 Engineer to share his BS with the crew.

Place the toad behind a unit, terrain, etc, use LoS, the you have 4++, arcane vassal is 24" range so you dont need to be upclose. Organ gun has to hit, wound, and you get saves. If it doesnt have a rune it cant hit you. If you leave your Slann out in the open its your fault, and finally you have a healing spell in high magic.
You have a lot of ways to protect the Slann from missile fire if you try it.

From my servoskull

Zinch
11-02-2014, 15:18
Place the toad behind a unit, terrain, etc, use LoS, the you have 4++, arcane vassal is 24" range so you dont need to be upclose. Organ gun has to hit, wound, and you get saves. If it doesnt have a rune it cant hit you. If you leave your Slann out in the open its your fault, and finally you have a healing spell in high magic.
You have a lot of ways to protect the Slann from missile fire if you try it.

From my servoskull

It's not as easy as that... The new dwarfs don't need to kill your Slann from afar. If you put it behind your line, they can "fix" it there with a Gyrocopter and try to break your line in that point, or just kill your skink priests and make your slann leave his hiding place, etc. etc.

Also, the dwarf weakness against magic is overhyped like nothing else in this world. You can take unlimited number of scrolls, you just have to pay for a runesmith and another rune besides the point cost of the spellbreaking rune, but if a dwarf player wants he can have 3+ dispell scrolls, 3+ channelings, 3+ units with a razor standar and 3+ units with a MR of 1 (or 2) and a +4 to any dispell attempt if he wants... I don't see the waekness here...

Alltaken
11-02-2014, 15:26
It's not as easy as that... The new dwarfs don't need to kill your Slann from afar. If you put it behind your line, they can "fix" it there with a Gyrocopter and try to break your line in that point, or just kill your skink priests and make your slann leave his hiding place, etc. etc.

Also, the dwarf weakness against magic is overhyped like nothing else in this world. You can take unlimited number of scrolls, you just have to pay for a runesmith and another rune besides the point cost of the spellbreaking rune, but if a dwarf player wants he can have 3+ dispell scrolls, 3+ channelings, 3+ units with a razor standar and 3+ units with a MR of 1 (or 2) and a +4 to any dispell attempt if he wants... I don't see the waekness here...

And we dont have cham skinks, salamanders, skinks, terradons, ripperdactyls. So that depends more on who has turn 1 first, then we dont even know if the gyros have magic damage (ethereal). And 2 skink priests isnt that Bad, wysans is pretty much the best saurus buff spell ever.

Its not that Hard, and my Slann is probably cheaper than all the full dwarf combo you mentioned just to hold the Slann at bay. Small dice casts will make those dispells run quickly if you know what and to whom cast.

Im not saying its the only solution, but its valid and it works and will work.

From my servoskull

Leogun_91
11-02-2014, 15:28
Join them. I mean have you seen the new stuff? These are the dwarfs i've wanted to see since 1995. This is my approach as well, bought a battalion last saturday to get a starting force. Choosing to not use gunpowder or other newfangled items means I won't have flying machines to play with however so I hope they aren't that important for a good force.

Phazael
11-02-2014, 15:31
Lets face it. A few brave souls will try and run the combat list, spamming copters and so on. But most dwarf players will sit in their castle corner behind their full frontal male nudity gunline. They will roll dice while you scoop models, only to get angry when the 10% of your army that makes it across the table feed them their own posterior. The only thing the new book changed, really, is adding the chance of army wide hatred, which I am dubious on how effective that will end up being. Any amoral HE player rocking the I Win banner is going to autostomp them in their local meta and the internet rage resulting from this will be glorious. For my part, I will just do what I have in the past, depending on what army I am using at the time. Six dice Comet FTW or all out bum rush.

Spiney Norman
11-02-2014, 15:34
I imagine it will be a fairly similar situation to the current book, don't bother bringing much magic or any monsters, get everything across the board as quickly as possible, employ warmachine hunters to tie up or neutralise the enemy artillery. None of the rumours I have seen suggest that dwarfs will have changed very much in this new book.

ARabidNun
11-02-2014, 15:36
I don't know if the question has been confirmed or not, but if we can place "any" rune on a gyrocopter, then its attacks become magical thus goodbye ethereal troops. This is how it was FAQ'd in the old rulebook.

Leogun_91
11-02-2014, 15:38
Join them. I mean have you seen the new stuff? These are the dwarfs i've wanted to see since 1995. This is my approach as well, bought a battalion last saturday to get a starting force. Choosing to not use gunpowder or other newfangled items means I won't have flying machines to play with however so I hope they aren't that important for a good force.

For a good counter to Gyrobombers look at heavens wizards, a simple casting of the signature spell means a 50% risk of the bomb being unusable, the clattergun will be hitting on 5s or 6s (depending on what the Dwarf-crafted rule does) and it deals a wound on average. In addition both chain lightning and Uranos kills it on an average roll.

Snake1311
11-02-2014, 16:42
Also, the dwarf weakness against magic is overhyped like nothing else in this world. You can take unlimited number of scrolls, you just have to pay for a runesmith and another rune besides the point cost of the spellbreaking rune, but if a dwarf player wants he can have 3+ dispell scrolls, 3+ channelings, 3+ units with a razor standar and 3+ units with a MR of 1 (or 2) and a +4 to any dispell attempt if he wants... I don't see the waekness here...

You don't see the weakness in overspending on dispelling? :P

The new book won't be a meta-changer; it will play relatively similary to the old one, barring the fact that the gyros are a steal so the movement phase won't be quite as static. The old tactics, and the old misconceptions (not worth taking casters vs dwarfs) will still remain.

Both warmachines and infantry got more expensive (the latter also got boosted) so if anything the armies will be even more compact.

Soulless
11-02-2014, 18:17
On top of 3 dispell scrolls.

For dwarf to get 1 diss scroll they have to take 2lvl rune (1 level gets them mr1 second is a diss scroll and third is spell eater)
Wait for the bomb that there cannot be 2 same combinations of runes ;) :*

Phazael
11-02-2014, 19:25
ITs a huge investment in magic defense that may not even matter. Six Dice PSun FTW will still happen and some armies don't even bring much magic to the table, if any. If someone wants to tie up 600 points of their army in scroll caddies that cannot fight their way out of a wet paper bag, then be my guest.

ewar
11-02-2014, 20:50
I need to see the book properly before coming to too many conclusions. But everything I've seen so far of the rumours points to them being as ****-achingly dully to play against as before.

Such a shame. I'd rather get shot off the table by 5 Skull Khannons... at least they move occasionally.

Treadhead_1st
11-02-2014, 21:48
Hm, for me (High Elf player, my Dark/Wood Elves are on the back-burner for a while) it will make the choice between High, Shadow and Heavens magic even harder; I might have to rethink Sisters of Avelorn versus Shadow Warriors to help get range against Organ Guns/Gyrocopters; and I might switch my Silver Helms out for Dragon Princes depending on what people can do with War Machines and the guns those new Irondragon guys carry. Other than that my list won't be changing too much, as I have based it around a specific theme and it seems to be a relatively competent all-comers list.

I also might be joining in with the Dwarfs - an army heavy on Longbeards, Quarrellers and Grudge Throwers (traditionalists) backed up with a few Cannons and Gyrocopters (those crazy, crazy engineers) and Slayers (they were told that experimenting with the new-fangled technology was a bad idea, but did they listen? Not until it was too late)...but that will be very much in the future as I have my 3 Elven armies to work on first, and the gorgeous new Dwarfs will compete in playstyle with the Empire force I've been eyeing up.

No, I don't have a problem sticking to projects/armies, why do you ask ;)?

Urgat
11-02-2014, 22:00
Judging by the news and rumors topic, I may sneeze a gaze of Mork or two, and the poor dwarfs will fold like dead leaves in an incinerator, apparently :p

Kingly
11-02-2014, 23:33
The doom singers been at it again aie? Don't bother reading the drivel they all come out with nowadays.

I'm going to struggle with High Elves I think as Dwarf shooting seems both capable of blasting my Phoenixes out of the sky, and churning through high armour low toughness mounted troops like silvers and dragon princes, so that could possibly make the best fast offensive units in my book completely ineffective, which leaves blocks of archers, which won't do anything...Sisters which won't do anything, chariots...Mmm maybe. But Swordmasters and White Lions might fair quite well given low Dwarven initiative. Hopefully most cannons will be ruined up making shots at the banner of world dragon quite useless!

It's a tough match up how ever you spin it, and probably quite hard to swallow...

Spiney Norman
12-02-2014, 00:07
I need to see the book properly before coming to too many conclusions. But everything I've seen so far of the rumours points to them being as ****-achingly dully to play against as before.

Such a shame. I'd rather get shot off the table by 5 Skull Khannons... at least they move occasionally.

What were you hoping for to make them more interesting?
Dwarves are, and always have been, slow moving no magic and lots of shooting, that's kind of the identity of the army...

Montegue
12-02-2014, 00:41
Oh, I'm looking forward to dispelling some internet wisdoms in the future. Aggressive dwarfs will be popular, as will combined arms approaches (two elite deathstars supported by well defended nasty shooting in the back field and ambushers/scouts). I mean, sure, I could toss four hordes of HW/Shield Dwarfs out there, a BSB with the Stubborn bubble, and a gunline, but I'd rather toss 61 WS5 S7 Armor Piercing attacks into a unit from a horde of hammerers with a vanguard move.

AngryAngel
12-02-2014, 02:46
Seeing as I play Dwarfs, I hope I won't need to try and beat them. However I'd like to hear how people believe they will beat the Dwarfs.

SuperHappyTime
12-02-2014, 03:44
Like dwarves, I share a great desire for alcoholic beverages.
Unlike dwarves, instead of an ale or stout, I prefer whine (rimshot).

Like most people I'd like to see things before I judge. Here's my checklist:
1. Either:
a) A personal read of the book, which is unlikely *cough* legally *cough* as the WHFB fanbase in my area is solely supported by myself and I haven't seen the owner add any new WHFB models for the past 6 months.
b) A really in-depth review by a long time Dwarf player/opponent
2. The full release and play of new models. I have a little more faith in GW than most, so I believe GW has something new that will be "game-changing" or at a minimum something you have to be prepared for in a tournament setting. Thus, I believe until someone discovers that element, any opinions about Dwarves are such, opinions.

ewar
12-02-2014, 09:17
What were you hoping for to make them more interesting?
Dwarves are, and always have been, slow moving no magic and lots of shooting, that's kind of the identity of the army...

I wish they'd taken the opportunity to give them M4 - I just see no reason why a dwarf is so much slower than all other short creatures. Its an anachronism and contributes to a dull playstyle. I love the fluff of the army, always have. I have just always found them to be the most unfun army to play against - a lot of their attributes are 'negative' in that they tend not to overpower other armies but focus more on neutralising their strengths. On the table this equates to a dull game for me.

They take away a lot of the movement phase and magic phase. They often focus on tanking damage rather than dealing it. They're stubborn on very high Ld a lot of the time to neutralise psychology. All these things combined just suck away a lot of the interesting aspects of warhammer - and that before you factor in the ubiquitous killer shooting phase.

Nothing I've seen of the rumours makes me think any of this has changed one jot, Which is a shame I feel.

MLP
12-02-2014, 09:39
I believe you are mixing up the new Squat army with dwarfs. I will just use my space marine army to defeat them...

Seriously though they don't seem to have changed that much in overall strengths and weaknesses. They're just evened out a bit. You'll still have gun lines and aggressive lists as before but they'll be more competitive than before. The flying units are a bit of a bother but at the end of the day they're just an easier to kill but mobile stone thrower/flamer. Pretty much any warmachine should take it down in a hit and I expect strong chaff could take it down too.

Spiney Norman
12-02-2014, 09:55
I wish they'd taken the opportunity to give them M4 - I just see no reason why a dwarf is so much slower than all other short creatures. Its an anachronism and contributes to a dull playstyle. I love the fluff of the army, always have. I have just always found them to be the most unfun army to play against - a lot of their attributes are 'negative' in that they tend not to overpower other armies but focus more on neutralising their strengths. On the table this equates to a dull game for me.

They take away a lot of the movement phase and magic phase. They often focus on tanking damage rather than dealing it. They're stubborn on very high Ld a lot of the time to neutralise psychology. All these things combined just suck away a lot of the interesting aspects of warhammer - and that before you factor in the ubiquitous killer shooting phase.

Nothing I've seen of the rumours makes me think any of this has changed one jot, Which is a shame I feel.

No offense bud, but it sounds like you're just playing the wrong army, there are 15 of them which allows them to cater for a wide range of play styles, if you're not down with the Dawi style of play then try choosing a different army, its not like this is something new that has shifted how the army plays it has always been this way. I do get how disappointing it is when they retain the traditional 'army weakness', I was rather hoping that when they redid tomb kings there would be some way of them being able to march, but all they did was take the already rather unsatisfactory work-around and make it even worse and less reliable, making the weakness even more pronounced. At the end of the day you either love the army enough to deal with the weaknesses or you don't and its time to find a new army.

Something as fundamental as the basic movement stat rarely changes in armies, how many editions have dwarfs been M3? The racial stat lines are pretty much set, none more so that the movement stat, it was a massive enough shift adding ASF to elves as a racial special rule.

Phazael
12-02-2014, 15:11
Yeah if anything, M3 is a lot more livable than it was in the past thanks to random charge distances. Though, I admit the loss of the Strollas rune and the Anvil move hurts a lot in this regard. They are still actually not the slowest moving army on the table (gratz TK?), even with M3. I do wish they had thrown in some steam punk contraptions (golems? some sort of buggy thing?) to give them more play in the movement phase beyond Charlie Don't Surf here comes Robert Duvall and his 6-8 copters.

Urgat
12-02-2014, 17:39
Yet I agree that it's a bit silly that dwarfs are M3 when stuff like gobs, gnobblars, heck, even snots or nurglings are M4. Short legs is a rather poor excuse in that light.

ewar
12-02-2014, 20:41
No offense bud, but it sounds like you're just playing the wrong army, there are 15 of them which allows them to cater for a wide range of play styles, if you're not down with the Dawi style of play then try choosing a different army, its not like this is something new that has shifted how the army plays it has always been this way. I do get how disappointing it is when they retain the traditional 'army weakness', I was rather hoping that when they redid tomb kings there would be some way of them being able to march, but all they did was take the already rather unsatisfactory work-around and make it even worse and less reliable, making the weakness even more pronounced. At the end of the day you either love the army enough to deal with the weaknesses or you don't and its time to find a new army.

Something as fundamental as the basic movement stat rarely changes in armies, how many editions have dwarfs been M3? The racial stat lines are pretty much set, none more so that the movement stat, it was a massive enough shift adding ASF to elves as a racial special rule.

None taken, I don't play with Dwarfs any more, sold my ancient early nineties all metal dwarf army last year. My point was that I dread playing against them, they are so very rarely a fun or interesting game.

I like the fluff, the minis etc but their play style is just painful sometimes. Someone said that TKs are the slowest, but not in my experience. Bringing M6 monsters, M7 MC, M8 cav and M8 chariots means they can at least present interesting movement options. A well timed bubble desert wind can put a unit of chariots facing inwards on each flank. Not to mention the ETBS deployment (which I actually use with moderate success...). Dwarfs might use some small ambush units or vanguard move Hammerers, but outside that they will be sitting pretty still I think.

The bearded one
12-02-2014, 20:55
Yeah if anything, M3 is a lot more livable than it was in the past thanks to random charge distances. Though, I admit the loss of the Strollas rune and the Anvil move hurts a lot in this regard. They are still actually not the slowest moving army on the table (gratz TK?), even with M3. I do wish they had thrown in some steam punk contraptions (golems? some sort of buggy thing?) to give them more play in the movement phase beyond Charlie Don't Surf here comes Robert Duvall and his 6-8 copters.

Loss of Strollaz's rune? But my dear, Strollaz hasn't been lost. In fact it became quite a bit cheaper, and gives the unit that has it vanguard, so 12" rather than the 6" of the old one.

Karak Norn Clansman
12-02-2014, 20:58
I'll embrace the new Dwarfs. :D

badguyshaveallthefun
12-02-2014, 23:31
I'll sacrifice them to the Dark Gods after I raze their hold to the ground. :)

I'm just hoping that our local dwarf players take this as an opportunity to try out new things. (gunlines...make...me..sad) Some of the most fun that I've had was in my old meta where the local dwarf player ran the anvil and mostly combat blocks of various types of dwarfs, with some quarrelers and light warmachine support. Those are some of the best games of Warhammer I've ever played, and I just hope that the new book encourages this playstyle, cause if it does I might just join them!

Phazael
13-02-2014, 00:00
Loss of Strollaz's rune? But my dear, Strollaz hasn't been lost. In fact it became quite a bit cheaper, and gives the unit that has it vanguard, so 12" rather than the 6" of the old one.

I thought the old Strollaz rune let the entire army creep six inches forward? Or am I thinking of the old Slayer list?

The bearded one
13-02-2014, 00:05
The old Strollaz' rune let units within 12" make 1 move forward, but you did need to fit it on the BSB. The new Strollaz rune only affects the unit bearing it, but is cheaper, fits on unitbanners, and the allowed move is twice as far.

Urgat
13-02-2014, 11:46
Now, is it such a good idea to have a lone dwarf unit move forward so much, on its own? Vanguard units can get away with it because they're usually light cav, and fast. But dwarfs? What's the point?
I've had my share of units jumping forward on their own thanks to animosity. Sometimes, it's nice, during the game. Most of the time, it is not. I can't think of a single time it was any useful when it happened on the first turn. A unified dwarf front that moves forward, even half as much, is much better imho.

underscore
13-02-2014, 12:09
Now, is it such a good idea to have a lone dwarf unit move forward so much, on its own? Vanguard units can get away with it because they're usually light cav, and fast. But dwarfs? What's the point?
So they can join their Ranger brethren (I am right in thinking they have Scout, right)? And hopefully in a position to make the most of it when the Miners turn up the next turn.

Solonor
13-02-2014, 12:14
How will i deal with the new dwarves?

I will equip every single model of my HE army (even the beasts) with a cloak of beards.

cptcosmic
13-02-2014, 13:17
deploy at least 6 inches off your deployment line, use Cloak of Beards, Iron Curse Icon, Dragon Armor, Dragon Helm, Dragonbane Gem, Banner of the World Dragon, Iceshard Blizzard and place a Comet on their faces.

GrudgeBringer
13-02-2014, 14:20
A single unit with strollaz might not be great but i'm going to try 50 H+S longbeards, 40 ironbreakers and 40 hammerers all with strollaz and a Bsb with the banner that gives stubborn to all units within 12 inches. remaining points will be spent on characters (2 runesmiths with spellbreakers and inc 1 with a spell eater) and gyros/5 man ranger units to block flank charges.

The entire army will start halfway across the board and be charging in my 2nd turn at the latest.

Leogun_91
13-02-2014, 14:27
Now, is it such a good idea to have a lone dwarf unit move forward so much, on its own? Vanguard units can get away with it because they're usually light cav, and fast. But dwarfs? What's the point?
I've had my share of units jumping forward on their own thanks to animosity. Sometimes, it's nice, during the game. Most of the time, it is not. I can't think of a single time it was any useful when it happened on the first turn. A unified dwarf front that moves forward, even half as much, is much better imho.Your greenskins never had the option for an oathstone, when it's impossible to flank the unit being alone isn't as bad.
And as mentioned by others you can give the rune to more than one unit.

N1AK
13-02-2014, 14:33
No offense bud, but it sounds like you're just playing the wrong army, there are 15 of them which allows them to cater for a wide range of play styles...

Something as fundamental as the basic movement stat rarely changes in armies, how many editions have dwarfs been M3? The racial stat lines are pretty much set, none more so that the movement stat, it was a massive enough shift adding ASF to elves as a racial special rule.

Relatively, Dwarves weren't that slow way back when: They moved exactly as fast as a human in heavy armour and infantry featured heavily in the game.

The problem with them remaining movement 3 isn't from an army generals perspective. In theory we may well be able to create a competitive, ranged heavy build with the new book. The problem is that if you want to play Dwarves in a competitive environment (like a tournament) then you bring that build and everyone hates playing against it whether they win or lose.

It doesn't matter how many funky tricks they give Dwarf players you won't be able to make a top level aggressive army out of M3 infantry, especially when we're reliant on expensive block units. I'll keep rolling out combat Dwarves at the club and likely do better than I am doing with the current book (not hard).

N1AK
13-02-2014, 14:42
The entire army will start halfway across the board and be charging in my 2nd turn at the latest.

I love the sound of the build :) so I definitely hope you have some success with it; it just seems that this kind of battleplan requires some rather optimistic assumptions. Most other, faster, armies are going to find it easier to block you up than you will find it to do it to them. You'll likely be charging in T1 but what you'll be charging are single Sabretusks, Wolf Riders etc positioned to drag you away from where you want to go.

cptcosmic
13-02-2014, 15:00
A single unit with strollaz might not be great but i'm going to try 50 H+S longbeards, 40 ironbreakers and 40 hammerers all with strollaz and a Bsb with the banner that gives stubborn to all units within 12 inches. remaining points will be spent on characters (2 runesmiths with spellbreakers and inc 1 with a spell eater) and gyros/5 man ranger units to block flank charges.

The entire army will start halfway across the board and be charging in my 2nd turn at the latest.
nice in theory but any sane opponet will deploy atleast 6 inches away from the deploment line against dwarfs vanguard move or not because:
-your gyros cannot bomb on the first turn
-flame cannon cannot hit on the first turn
-fast combat units (aggressive combat armies) can now combo charge a dwarf unit that used vanguard movement into the front of a single dwarf unit
-any shooting (shooting heavy armies) will focus one thing and weaken it significantly
-chaff will block the other dwarf combat units

this will not end well for the dwarfs, I would rather make a list that can respond to everything equally well instead of such a one trick pony that gets countered too easy.

Montegue
13-02-2014, 15:50
nice in theory but any sane opponet will deploy atleast 6 inches away from the deploment line against dwarfs vanguard move or not because:
-your gyros cannot bomb on the first turn
-flame cannon cannot hit on the first turn
-fast combat units (aggressive combat armies) can now combo charge a dwarf unit that used vanguard movement into the front of a single dwarf unit
-any shooting (shooting heavy armies) will focus one thing and weaken it significantly
-chaff will block the other dwarf combat units

this will not end well for the dwarfs, I would rather make a list that can respond to everything equally well instead of such a one trick pony that gets countered too easy.

Hmm...

So, I go 12 forward, they deploy six back. Still a net gain of a turns worth of movement. Their heavy hitters charge a stubborn hard hitting group of elite special or core, get stuck on 10+ stubborn, and get countercharged by Hammerers. If they charged the Hammerers, they have to deal with nasty characters and 2a elite infantry with armor piercing. If they attack the other guys, they have to deal with armor and armor piercing saves, and then a tight counter charge into their flank from the aforementioned Hammerers. Positioning chaff gets the chaff killed, and stubborn is enough to hold the line for a counter charge a turn later if needs be.

If they shoot, there's enough bodies. I march, I fire the artillery I have to clear chaff.

WhispersofBlood
13-02-2014, 15:51
nice in theory but any sane opponet will deploy atleast 6 inches away from the deploment line against dwarfs vanguard move or not because:
-your gyros cannot bomb on the first turn
-flame cannon cannot hit on the first turn
-fast combat units (aggressive combat armies) can now combo charge a dwarf unit that used vanguard movement into the front of a single dwarf unit
-any shooting (shooting heavy armies) will focus one thing and weaken it significantly
-chaff will block the other dwarf combat units

this will not end well for the dwarfs, I would rather make a list that can respond to everything equally well instead of such a one trick pony that gets countered too easy.

Flame cannon can hit on the first turn. deploy 12", template starts 12" away from machine, and moves artillary dice forward
How would they know you have vanguard, until you vanguard?

Montegue
13-02-2014, 15:53
Open lists are the norm.

Although, a couple flame cannons and a couple organ guns deployed forward would force them to cme at you or die in a fire.

Daniel36
13-02-2014, 15:53
Smash them with a hammer.

GrudgeBringer
13-02-2014, 15:55
Gyros can bomb on the 1st turn, it is worded so they can drop them even if they march.

Please go ahead and combo charge the front of any of the 3 dwarf units with your own combat units, they wont go anywhere and you will get another unit in the flank a turn later.

I know its a bit of a 1 trick pony and will require modification but its going to be fun to test out all the possible combinations. A unit of 40 hammerer with 3 runes of slowness and a Bsb with 3 runes of battle could be the most destructive unit in the game. virtually impossible to charge and if you do make it you have always strike last and get hit by 50 S6 attacks possibly with rerolls due to hatred. or if the dwarfs charge 50 S7 attacks.

Shooting heavy armies have no hope of doing enough damage to 3 dwarf hordes before they get crushed, too easy to fit a master rune of grungi in there for 5+ wards all round but even without it 40 H elf archers shooting a close range would only kill 3 ironbreakers.

EddieJA
13-02-2014, 16:09
How am I going to deal with them?

Re-swear great oaths of loyalty between my Empire forces and my best friend's Dwarf army, and use the old alliance to beat back everything that comes agianst us.

NagashLover
13-02-2014, 17:12
Invite them over for a turkey dinner...then I'll raise a zombie turkey right off the plates when they least expect it.

Honestly, I don't know. Not because I think the book is amazing, I'll reserve any judgment well until after the book is out, but simply because I haven't run into a Dwarf player in over 11 years...and that was me.

underscore
13-02-2014, 17:31
Open lists are the norm.

Huh? Where is that the norm?

Soulless
13-02-2014, 21:39
Well it seems that magic defense got hit hard - lore of death and shadow will own stunties even more then now :D poor little bearded astards :D

Urgat
13-02-2014, 21:59
So they can join their Ranger brethren (I am right in thinking they have Scout, right)? And hopefully in a position to make the most of it when the Miners turn up the next turn.

Mmh. Is the best place to deploy scouts only 12" away from your deployement zone, though?


Your greenskins never had the option for an oathstone, when it's impossible to flank the unit being alone isn't as bad.
When ganked for all sides, flanks don't really matter anymore.


And as mentioned by others you can give the rune to more than one unit.
Now that's more like it indeed. My mistake, from what I read, I thought it just fit on a banner, and I don't know why, I thought you cuoldn't have the same rune combination twice (maybe it's from an earlier AB), so I thought just the one rune couldn't be duplicated because of that. My bad.


Open lists are the norm.

That's a doubtful statement, to be honest. Maybe at tourneys? But then tourneys are not the norm.


Please go ahead and combo charge the front of any of the 3 dwarf units with your own combat units, they wont go anywhere and you will get another unit in the flank a turn later.

I would say it'd be the same whatever the turn, so you may as well take the opportunity to get the charge, but instead I'll salute the optimism, it's a nice change.

Deman38
14-02-2014, 00:34
Just got home with the new book , looks like a very strong book at first glance, couple of new units. It will be nice to play them again.
Any questions while I am online ?

NurglesRot
14-02-2014, 00:57
Just got home with the new book , looks like a very strong book at first glance, couple of new units. It will be nice to play them again.
Any questions while I am online ?

Dwarfs used to be able to shut down the magic phase quite reliably. How much of a nerf did they take to magic defense?

Deman38
14-02-2014, 01:16
A bonus of +2 to dispel(Natural resistance) , Runesmith and Runelord's add mr 1 & 2 respectively as well

Pheasant_Plucker
14-02-2014, 02:17
I will pat the Dwarf player on the back and hand him a beer in commiseration. If I am feeling particularly mean, I will tell him he should have bought elves.

Montegue
14-02-2014, 04:57
Heh. Chaos. Chaos is insane, in all three aspects. :)

Chaos Dwarfs - all of their rank and file wear armor equivalent to Gromril. Oi. Hell, empire greatswords and weedy elves in cloaks have the same armor save as someone in the most magnificent armor crafted in the old world. It makey no sensey.

Lord Dan
14-02-2014, 05:49
I'm going to do what I've always done.

Throw rats at the problem until that problem goes away, or I run out of rats.

The bearded one
14-02-2014, 05:56
A good thing we get hatred against skaven now.

Lord Dan
14-02-2014, 05:58
A good thing we get hatred against skaven now.

You'll need it. :p

MasterSparks
14-02-2014, 06:34
Do we know how the Dwarf's new war machines stack up against the FW Chaos Dwarf's? The new flame cannon sounds close to the CD magma cannon, which is a great piece, but perhaps the master engineer doesn't allow the same flexibility on re-rolling the artillery dice?

MasterSplinter
14-02-2014, 06:37
Thats the thing about skaven - with 60 mice in a block i dont really care about rerolling to hit. When i have 3 blocks i wont really run out of blocks. Yeah... basically.. its Skaven :P

I am really looking forward to a game of them against the new dwarf book. What to do against or with the nwe book, i dont really know it yet. Got to have it in front of me and see for myself.
What i guess now, after the newest set of rumours, with the possibility of having the whole battleline stubborn, and the new gyro-spam, i think there should be possible ways of making a (semi-)competitive play to say the least.
IMO most of the whining on the new book was not justified. Certainly, there are things the could have been solved in a better way. but hats subjective.

Deman38
14-02-2014, 12:10
@MasterSplinter "Thats the thing about skaven - with 60 mice in a block i dont really care about rerolling to hit. When i have 3 blocks i wont really run out of blocks. Yeah... basically.. its Skaven :P" LOL , thats awesome
Yes I agree , Can't please everybody. Some of the new units look good , Ironbreakers will be solid , as well as Hammerers . The new Bomber looks neat , I am sure there will be times it is useless . The new Irondrakes remind me of "miniature Leadbelchers" with a "torpedo" option !!! How cool is that !!!!
The next few weeks I am hoping for battle reports of what works and what doesn't .
With my luck and models with Ld 10...I roll an 11 or 12 :)

Phazael
14-02-2014, 19:59
One thing about the new book is that aside from their pseudo savage ork biggun block, which can be chaffed out of the game, they really do not rack up body counts in close combat. Slavestars and similar units are still going to present certain issues and the undead matchup in particular is still going to be a severe issue for them.

snottlebocket
15-02-2014, 20:16
You'll need it. :p

Will we? If there's one thing I've noticed it's plethora of large templates. Steam guns, dive bombing, grudgebuster bombs, flame cannons. Kinda seems like dwarfs are going to be an unholy terror on large, lightly armored infantry formations.

MasterSplinter
15-02-2014, 21:35
One thing about the new book is that aside from their pseudo savage ork biggun block, which can be chaffed out of the game, they really do not rack up body counts in close combat. Slavestars and similar units are still going to present certain issues and the undead matchup in particular is still going to be a severe issue for them.

Could you elaborate that a little?
I am with you that slaves and stuff like that are a problem but i guess thats more a reason of general game mechanics.

SpanielBear
15-02-2014, 21:58
Indeed, I was under the impression that Slave giga-hordes were a problem for a lot of armies, not a uniquely Dwarven one.

m1acca1551
16-02-2014, 06:56
Yeah slave spam will always be an issue, atleast until Skaven have their cheese taken away from them... Haha get it

I'm actually looking forward to seeing how dwarfs do against horde blocks now with all the extra attacks, hatred and AS+, new flame weapon will be very very interesting aswell plus all the template stuff.

So it'll be cannon of the big gribble and blow holes in the ranks of the big hordes, the only issue is that the storm banner... Seriously OP piece of kit...

cptcosmic
17-02-2014, 12:36
That tunnelvision strategies..


Flame cannon can hit on the first turn. deploy 12", template starts 12" away from machine, and moves artillary dice forward
How would they know you have vanguard, until you vanguard?
I dont need to know beside that flame cannon wont hit when you deploy 6 inches off the line. L2read

Gyros can bomb on the 1st turn, it is worded so they can drop them even if they march.
Please go ahead and combo charge the front of any of the 3 dwarf units with your own combat units, they wont go anywhere and you will get another unit in the flank a turn later.
They cant whenyou dont have enough movement. I am 6 inches off the deployment line. L2read.

Beside that you cant counterchargee because first your dwarf unit wont survive more than 2 rounds from a combined charge of any real combat unit and second the other dwarf units will be busy playing cat and mouse with chaff while you cant get rid of.

underscore
17-02-2014, 12:47
I dont need to know
Yes you do.

Kahadras
17-02-2014, 14:15
I think the type of army that I usualy field hates going up against a regular Dwarf set up of 'castle around the war machines'. The whole basis of my army is to out maneuver an opponant and if they just sit in a corner then there isn't much I can do. The bright side is the fact that they've lost a lot of their magic defense so I can use that to my advantage. I think my type of mounted High Elf army just doesn't stack up very well against a warmachine/great weapon armed infantry army.

Jind_Singh
17-02-2014, 15:47
People say they lost magic defence BUT they can easily get plus 4 to dispel and not suffer 'broken concentration', and still have access to rubes that grant them dispel scroll with cheap upgrade to destroy the spell after on a 4plus

They also have an easy way to get 'remains in play spells' dispelled on a 3+, and one item grants them a bonus power/dispel die which incidentally is taken from the opponent

Oh - and then they can channel with rune priests - who also come with MR1/2 respectively

So parden me for not believing that the Stunties do not have magic defence!!

Jind_Singh
17-02-2014, 15:52
War machines are still king with the Dwarfs, perhaps a bit more so now

Granted the grudge thrower has been reduced to strength 4 max for the circle, but organ guns are much better ad can be upgraded

New fliers are just amazing for their points nd rules - expect stunted airforce spam

And to round it off the buggers can actually figt!

Center aroun a hammered unit hat has magic rune banner to make all units around it stubborn and now we are in deep foo-doo

Soulless
17-02-2014, 15:55
People say they lost magic defence BUT they can easily get plus 4 to dispel and not suffer 'broken concentration', and still have access to rubes that grant them dispel scroll with cheap upgrade to destroy the spell after on a 4plus

They also have an easy way to get 'remains in play spells' dispelled on a 3+, and one item grants them a bonus power/dispel die which incidentally is taken from the opponent

Oh - and then they can channel with rune priests - who also come with MR1/2 respectively

So parden me for not believing that the Stunties do not have magic defence!!

They cannot get 4 DD easily - they need to take 75 pts banner in order to do that - and it fits on a very offensive minded unit OR BSB (and bsb in army of 9 and 10 ld is not something that is obligatory)

The bump from dispellscroll to spelleater is 25 points so basicly it eats most of model runica allowance.

You talk about most of the ways that dwarfs can defend aginst magic - the problem is that in doing so they lower their shooting output or close combat prowess. Dwarfs - like elves of all kinds suffer from we cant do everything syndrome - Dwarfs with low I score are especially vulnerable to insta gib spells and not having sufficient magic defense can be deadly for them. And MR sadly doesn't help you against pit of shades and such :P

Kahadras
17-02-2014, 16:21
So pardon me for not believing that the Stunties do not have magic defence!!

Every army has magic defence but Dwarfs are now at a level which I would concider to be sane. The fact that the old Runelord on anvil used to generate 3 dispel dice by himself was a bit nuts (especialy when combined with Master Rune of Balance and Runes of Spellbreaking)

Jind_Singh
17-02-2014, 18:39
Every army has magic defence but Dwarfs are now at a level which I would concider to be sane. The fact that the old Runelord on anvil used to generate 3 dispel dice by himself was a bit nuts (especialy when combined with Master Rune of Balance and Runes of Spellbreaking)

Exactly! The book is on par with other armies - and yes it costs to get extra protection but as a Thane that's the hard choice you make - pay for magic defence or pay more or extra offence

The old dwarf system was broken as it was designed for an old edition - this is very much in line with 8th an still gives them one of the strongest magic defences in 8th

moonlapse
17-02-2014, 19:39
People say they lost magic defence BUT they can easily get plus 4 to dispel and not suffer 'broken concentration', and still have access to rubes that grant them dispel scroll with cheap upgrade to destroy the spell after on a 4plus

They also have an easy way to get 'remains in play spells' dispelled on a 3+, and one item grants them a bonus power/dispel die which incidentally is taken from the opponent

Oh - and then they can channel with rune priests - who also come with MR1/2 respectively

So parden me for not believing that the Stunties do not have magic defence!!

It's not the fact that they don't have any magic defence, it's the increase in cost without providing the corresponding OFFence which is normally associated who said cost. Old book, you could take a Runesmith and 3 scrolls - that's 150 points to ruin 3 phases and get +1 DD per turn. Too cheap and too powerful by far, of course. The problem is that now, Dwarfs still don't have anything in the way of magic offence (3 bound spells don't really count, considering they're weak spells anyway and have no bonuses to cast) but have to spend the same or more points than the opponent on magic just to break even. 3 Runesmiths with a dispel talisman each will now set you back in the region of 300 points. You can decide 3 phases (if they don't IR), but what about the other 3? A 125 point enemy Wizard can give the Dwarfs hell for the other 3 turns despite a 300 point investment in PURE anti-magic. A 200 point enemy Wizard will OWN the Dwarfs despite their anti-magic investment. God help the Dwarfs if the enemy has some way of gaining or storing power dice.

I think that's the crux of the problem - why should a 200 point in defence AND offence (+4 to dispel, +4 to cast, access to 4 potentially devastating spells) BEAT 300 points of purely defence?
I realise Runesmiths give AP now so are not solely dedicated to magic defence like they were before, but it's still pretty galling. I would value their AP at 25-30 points or so anyway so they're still on the back foot.

Kahadras
17-02-2014, 20:24
I think that's the crux of the problem - why should a 200 point in defence AND offence (+4 to dispel, +4 to cast, access to 4 potentially devastating spells) BEAT 300 points of purely defence?

Well I think things probably balance out. A Runesmith is pretty much like a scroll caddy for most armies apart from the fact that he's got better stats than most Wizards and can outfit himself with armour and runes (unless his abilities have massively changed in the new book as I'm going off the old one for his stats and options here). So he works as well as a scroll caddy from most other armies but also fights better in combat and grants a bonus to the unit he's with (unless the AP in Runelord only as, again, I've looked over the book a few days ago and my memory isn't that good). 200 points of Runesmith defence should be able to hold up a Wizard Lords magical offence for a couple of turns and that's what most other armies look to. With My High Elves I know that my opponant is going to get off 2 to 3 spells a turn (maybe 4 if he rolls well) and I'm going to be able to have a go at stopping 1 or 2 with a Dispel Scroll there as a hard counter. Even with an Archmage I have to be realistic about how much magic I can stop every turn.

WhispersofBlood
17-02-2014, 21:47
That tunnelvision strategies..


I dont need to know beside that flame cannon wont hit when you deploy 6 inches off the line. L2read

First right off the bat never respond to me like that again. I'm neither a child or an idiot and if you persist you are only showing how incapable you are having a discussion, and will be treat as such, a common internet nobody with no friends with who he can discuss his or her hobbies.

I was going to respond to your assertions, but until you can either act like you have had some sort of human contact in the last ten years, I don't really see the need.

GrudgeBringer
17-02-2014, 23:22
That tunnelvision strategies..


I dont need to know beside that flame cannon wont hit when you deploy 6 inches off the line. L2read

They cant whenyou dont have enough movement. I am 6 inches off the deployment line. L2read.

Beside that you cant counterchargee because first your dwarf unit wont survive more than 2 rounds from a combined charge of any real combat unit and second the other dwarf units will be busy playing cat and mouse with chaff while you cant get rid of.

The gyrocopters bombs are not for hitting main units but for wiping out chaff, if your chaff is 6 inches off the line it isnt going to be doing its job of blocking me and if it isnt i destroy it. Also if you deploy 6 inches back with a chaff unit which will almost certainly be only rank deep the back of that unit is less than 19 inches away from me so i can still fly over it anyway.

You seriously believe you have a combat unit capable of wiping out 50 longbeards with a 4+ save and 5+ parry in 2 rounds of combat let alone the ironbreakers with a 3+ save. The most powerfull combat units in the game are witch elves, GW chaos warriors, skull crushers and a horde of ironguts. None of them come close to being able to do it. Even putting out 60 poisoned attacks due to having a hero with witch brew the witch elves only manage 10 wounds per round on the longbeards and 7 to the ironbreakers. The gut horde would only manage around 14 and that is assuming the dwarfs didnt kill any of them before they attacked. Even a horde of ghouls with a blender vampire cant wipe out either unit in less than 4 rounds of combat

Soulless
17-02-2014, 23:25
And all it takes is 1 spell :D

GrudgeBringer
17-02-2014, 23:29
Yeah purple sun is a pain but every dwarf army you face from now on will have a spell eater in it. If you dont get IF there is a 50/50 chance the spell will be destroyed, i wouldnt rely on if i were you.

kylek2235
18-02-2014, 00:10
I make height jokes until my opponent is so enraged that he accidentally moves a unit that matters forward. Must be yee tall to ride the rides...
:D

Montegue
18-02-2014, 03:06
Every army has magic defence but Dwarfs are now at a level which I would concider to be sane. The fact that the old Runelord on anvil used to generate 3 dispel dice by himself was a bit nuts (especialy when combined with Master Rune of Balance and Runes of Spellbreaking)

Every army has magic offense, which has always been superior in a battle than magic defense. Dwarfs do not. They now have a double weakness - an increase in vulnerability to magic and no real compensatory options for their own magic phase. There's no other way to look at it - stunties got screwed over hard in this regard.

Colonel Mayhem
18-02-2014, 06:34
I still don't see the Anvil as a bad choice, rather it has been tunned down from being too good. Compare the points of it with what it grants and it is not that expensive: The book of Hoeth more or less does the same as the +1 dd/pd the Anvil provides, 2 runes of fury and two runes of ekstra wounds(can't remember their names) and you pay a whopping 10ish points pr bound spell. Not bad at all...One could argue that being converted into a warmachine has it's drawbacks, which it does, but at the same time the +1dd/pd don't eat into your points allowance on runic items compared to the Book of Hoeth.

(I hope this is not to points specific)

Kahadras
18-02-2014, 13:56
Every army has magic offense, which has always been superior in a battle than magic defense. Dwarfs do not. They now have a double weakness - an increase in vulnerability to magic and no real compensatory options for their own magic phase. There's no other way to look at it - stunties got screwed over hard in this regard.

Not really. Like you've pointed out most armies have the choice for a magical offence (Wizard Lord) or a magical defence (Scroll caddy). Dwarfs only really have the choice for magical defense as the strengths of their army lies elsewhere. IMHO with the old Dwarf book it was too easy to just shut down the magic phase meaning that Dwarfs could castle up and would only have to worry about IF.

GrudgeBringer
18-02-2014, 14:08
With the master rune of valaya, which is admitadly expensive can can only go no your Bsb or hammerers we have the same +4 to dispel everyone else does and with 2 runesmiths the same 2 channels most other armies will have. Yes we have lost the ability to completey shut down every magic phase (i once went 13 games without ever having a spell cast against me outside of IF) but we a no worse off against magic than most other armies. Taking a single runesmith with a spelleater and good defensive runes is less that 150 points and gives you a pretty good chance to destroy purple sun if your opponent is going to rely on it which is of course a lot less than the cost of a lvl4 and lvl2 scroll caddy.

We have become more vulnerable to 1 or 2 hexes or augments sneaking through each turn making combat more dangerous but our units did recieve quite a buff.

Soundwave
18-02-2014, 14:52
It is not the same + 4 to dispell as everyone else. It is far superior and the best in the game. It is a constant and reliable + 4. No risk of breaking concentration is a massive advantage. For example an opening spell the opponent casts on a drivelling roll of a 1 and a 2, level 4 for a total of 7. As a Dwarf player you can risk it one die and not worry about failing as you're + 4 will be there for the next spell.
Unlike everyone else who would have to throw a minimum of two dice to make sure our wizards level will count towards the next spell cast and dispell attempt. Yes the Dwarf magic phase has been toned down but it's still very reliable. It just means Dwarf player's will now have to think about there dispelling for a change.

Phazael
18-02-2014, 16:10
Could you elaborate that a little?
I am with you that slaves and stuff like that are a problem but i guess thats more a reason of general game mechanics.

Many of the newer armies have methods of dealing with these units, often simply through ludicrous volume of attacks. A well built maneater, witch elf, or even Chaos Warrior unit can mow through a slave block (even the 10 rank deep trains) in a reasonable amount of time. Dwarves really don't have that sort of output with any of their units.

But, yeah there are a lot of armies with this issue, just not many with the complete lack of movement the dwarves have.

Kingly
18-02-2014, 16:27
Many of the newer armies have methods of dealing with these units, often simply through ludicrous volume of attacks. A well built maneater, witch elf, or even Chaos Warrior unit can mow through a slave block (even the 10 rank deep trains) in a reasonable amount of time. Dwarves really don't have that sort of output with any of their units.
But, yeah there are a lot of armies with this issue, just not many with the complete lack of movement the dwarves have.

The dwarves do have weaknesses which is great, all armies should. But I for one do not see blocks and blocks of Skaven slaves being the answer at all, limited space and the ability to blow other armies off the field of battle before they get to you would surely mean anything that isn't in combat, i.e. the units you want to use to out flank (I guess) Will get shot to pieces, in my most recent game vs Skaven three blocks of 40 Slaves blocked an entire 1,500 Skaven army from progressing until they exploded.
What I have found with my High Elves, which I'm sure shall be similar to Dwarves, is that Slaves are great to tie you up with, but they do not last very long at all so you have to strike whilst the iron is hot, they deal zero damage as well quite commonly, until they blow. So I do not see Dwarves being afriad of them at all.
One Horde of Warriors could deal with 2-3 blocks of these bad boys quite easily I'm sure, then use artillery to shoot out the lord/BSB, then watch them try and hold on a pretty low LD.

GrudgeBringer
18-02-2014, 16:45
Many of the newer armies have methods of dealing with these units, often simply through ludicrous volume of attacks. A well built maneater, witch elf, or even Chaos Warrior unit can mow through a slave block (even the 10 rank deep trains) in a reasonable amount of time. Dwarves really don't have that sort of output with any of their units.


With a horde of hammerers, 3 runes of battle and the horde of vengeance they do. Its a lot of points admitadly but 60 S6/7 attacks possibly rerolling due to hatred should get through quickly enough.

Devaroze
18-02-2014, 17:08
Every army has magic offense, which has always been superior in a battle than magic defense. Dwarfs do not. They now have a double weakness - an increase in vulnerability to magic and no real compensatory options for their own magic phase. There's no other way to look at it - stunties got screwed over hard in this regard.
Just because you keep repeating this over and over does not make it true. For 65 points you get a banner that not only makes you dispell on a 4+ it also removes remains in play spells every friendly magic phase. You've said before that dwarfs have to spend more to get semi decent magic defence. Tell me what other army gets to dispell on a 4+ for 65 points without taking a character specifically for the roll of casting/dispelling. Not only that you never break concentration.

Add to that the ability to channel dice and take multiple dispell scrolls dwarfs become the best anti magic in the game. Sorry Monty, but all your doomsaying about magic rolling dwarfs is completely unfounded.

Urgat
18-02-2014, 17:19
Many of the newer armies have methods of dealing with these units, often simply through ludicrous volume of attacks. A well built maneater, witch elf, or even Chaos Warrior unit can mow through a slave block (even the 10 rank deep trains) in a reasonable amount of time. Dwarves really don't have that sort of output with any of their units.

Well, they've got access to a lot of templates, that should mitigate things a bit at least.

Phazael
18-02-2014, 19:17
With a horde of hammerers, 3 runes of battle and the horde of vengeance they do. Its a lot of points admitadly but 60 S6/7 attacks possibly rerolling due to hatred should get through quickly enough.

.. that with its awesome movement of 3 will likely never see anything other than a rat dart/furies/eagle all game, unfortunately. Its going to be a slow moving version of the Savage Biggun unit, which people have had a couple years to get used to.

Urgat likely has the best option for handling the Skaven (Copter/Bomber spam) or armies like them with cheap cockblocker trains of steadfast 10, but that stupid storm banner is a serious issue against that (and other) counters. I wish Ironbreakers had been the 2A infantry and that both they and Hammerer's were less expensive. Right now all I hear dorf players discussion is changing their existing gunlines to Hammerstar builds, which depresses me. When the Dwarf players figure out how overpriced most of their book is, it will depress them too.

Phazael
18-02-2014, 19:24
Just because you keep repeating this over and over does not make it true. For 65 points you get a banner that not only makes you dispell on a 4+ it also removes remains in play spells every friendly magic phase. You've said before that dwarfs have to spend more to get semi decent magic defence. Tell me what other army gets to dispell on a 4+ for 65 points without taking a character specifically for the roll of casting/dispelling. Not only that you never break concentration.

Add to that the ability to channel dice and take multiple dispell scrolls dwarfs become the best anti magic in the game. Sorry Monty, but all your doomsaying about magic rolling dwarfs is completely unfounded.

In the past, you could drop a Runelord and Runepriest on the table and load up on as many as five scrolls, hiding them in infantry units and paying maybe 300ish points for that privilege. Now you need one character per dispel scroll, minimum, and no access to things that punish low level mages or dice spammers (Feedback or Hex Scroll). So, just to get even three scrolls is going to run you 500ish points, at the minimum. It still won't stop 6dPSunIwin!!!!! and its completely dead weight against armies that simply do not bring (or use much) magic. The best feature of the new Rune guys is actually the AP they confer, but then you likely want to spend your points keeping them alive and then the cost climbs even more.

Basic fact is that the Dwarf magic defense is worse than before (which was intolerably too efficient), but it is still better than what most armies have to work with. You sure do pay a lot for it, though.

Zinch
18-02-2014, 19:30
.. that with its awesome movement of 3 will likely never see anything other than a rat dart/furies/eagle all game, unfortunately. Its going to be a slow moving version of the Savage Biggun unit, which people have had a couple years to get used to.

Urgat likely has the best option for handling the Skaven (Copter/Bomber spam) or armies like them with cheap cockblocker trains of steadfast 10, but that stupid storm banner is a serious issue against that (and other) counters. I wish Ironbreakers had been the 2A infantry and that both they and Hammerer's were less expensive. Right now all I hear dorf players discussion is changing their existing gunlines to Hammerstar builds, which depresses me. When the Dwarf players figure out how overpriced most of their book is, it will depress them too.

Storm Banner is an issue, but when it finishes, a single bomber can kill 20-30 slaves per turn, and then that unit is not going to be steadfast in combat... The standard gyros can kill also a bunch of them, and the old reliable Grudge thrower as well... I don't think Dwarfs are going to fear low T, low AS units...

Also, now dwarfs ALWAYS hate skaven...

Kahadras
18-02-2014, 20:01
Basic fact is that the Dwarf magic defense is worse than before (which was intolerably too efficient), but it is still better than what most armies have to work with. You sure do pay a lot for it, though.

Well a couple of Runesmiths each with a Rune of Spell breaking doesn't set you back a massive amount of points. OK they don't get spells of their own to cast but the Runesmiths are better in combat than a spell caddy and bring their AP buff as well.

Phazael
18-02-2014, 21:46
Well a couple of Runesmiths each with a Rune of Spell breaking doesn't set you back a massive amount of points. OK they don't get spells of their own to cast but the Runesmiths are better in combat than a spell caddy and bring their AP buff as well.

The AP buff is the one redeeming feature, but really compare prices to what even a L1 Chaos Sorcerer is (who can fight) or if you really want to be depressed, a hero level Ogre wizard. Those guys can certainly fight. Hell, Orc Wizards are not far off when it comes to fighting and they have magic, while being generally inexpensive when compared to the Runesmiths. I get that GW does not want the Dwarves to be able to say "six dice or nothing" every game. Hell, its arguably better for the dwarves that way if they accept that one or two small spells is preferable to getting 6dPSunFTW every game. But the smiths just plain cost too much for what they do.

Kingly
18-02-2014, 23:00
You say M3 like it's made Dwarves totally useless? They are a M3 army and that's just the way it is. They have incredible shooting and templates like has been said, you now have better gyros as well.
Saying they're just going to die to purple sun every game is crazy man, 65 points for a dispel banner is pretty damn good.

Phazael
18-02-2014, 23:25
What I am saying is, nothing is going to change the six dice PSun/Pit thing. That, and I think Smiths are overcosted for what they do and dwarven magic defense took a hit.

Kahadras
19-02-2014, 00:07
The AP buff is the one redeeming feature, but really compare prices to what even a L1 Chaos Sorcerer is (who can fight) or if you really want to be depressed, a hero level Ogre wizard. Those guys can certainly fight. Hell, Orc Wizards are not far off when it comes to fighting and they have magic, while being generally inexpensive when compared to the Runesmiths.

Sorry I don't have the new Dwarf book on me so I can't directly compare prices. If he's around the cost of the Chaos Sorcerer then I'd say he's about right. They've both got armour, both got a decent hero stat line, the sorcerer has a spell/the Runesmith has his buff etc. As to the Butcher I'm prepared to say flat out that IMHO GW lost the plot in regards to Ogre Kingdoms especially with the Slaughtermaster and Butcher Ironfist FaQ debacle so I'm not going to argue there. Not sure about the Orc wizard the only thing he has going for him is toughness 4. OK he's cheap but he gets no armour and only has 1 attack at WS 3.

GrudgeBringer
19-02-2014, 00:42
Played a game again warriors of chaos today and i can say dwarfs now rock in combat. I had 40 GW longbeards, 40 ironbreakers and 30 hammerers all with vanguard plus 2 gyros and 2 5 man ranger units.

It was an absolute massacre to the dwarfs. My opponent had a very friendly list admitadly, 28 Tze H+S warriors, 28 Nurgle GW warriors and 18 Khorne warriors with halberds, plus 2 units of 5 hounds, a lvl4 with metal and a lvl2 with death and a BsB and a chimera.

My Bsb had 2 runes of slowness and valaya, i deployed him in the longbeards opposite the Tze warriors, i had a 2nd runesmith with the ironbreakers facing the Tze warriors and my hammers were on 1 flank with the gyros facing the khorne warriors. i deployed my rangers in front of his hounds to block their vanguard movement then vanguarded my units straight towards his. i Rolled a 3 on the chard so my characters had hatred against his.

I got the 1st turn and marched the ironbreakers and the longbeards forwards, stopping 8 inches from his units, The gyros both marched to one side of the khorne warriors out of charge arc and my hammerers held back. In my shooting phase i killed 2 from each unit of hounds with the rangers and 1 unit ran.

In his 1st turn the nurgle warriors made it into the ironbreakers and the Tze warriors failed the charge against the longbeards due to slowness, the khone warrios marched forwards and the chimera flew behind the hammerers. He only had 5 power dice and used them all to cast purple sun so i used my spell eater and was lucky enough to destroy it. In combat the nurgle warriors killed 7 ironbreakers and lost 4 in return but i was steadfast and held.

My turn 2 the longbeards charged the Tze warriors with his level 4 while the gyros flew up to the khorne warriors and steamed 6 to death in the shooting phase, 2 more died to the rangers whilst the hammerser reformed to face the chimera and leave their flank for the khorne warriors. In combat the Tze warriors only killed 4 longbeards who in return smashed 9 of them. The warriors fled and got run down, Str7 attacks with AP really hurt. I lost a few ironbreakers and killed a few nurgle warriors but passed on steadfast again.

His turn 2 the khorne warriors roll snake eyes for charge and fail though the chimera makes it in. He rolls box cars for winds but now only has a lvl2 with soulblight left and i dispel it. The hammerers do 5 wounds to the chimera and reform to face the khorne warriors and the grind between the ironbreakers and the nurgle warriors continue.

My turn 3 the gyros steam another hald dozen khorne warriors and the longbeards reform to face the rear of the nurgle warriors who continue chipping away at the ironbreakers and lose a few more of their own.

His turn 3 the 6 remaining khorne warriors charge the hammerers and get slaughtered, magic gets shut down and the big grind continues.

My turn 4 the longbeards charge the rear of the nurgle warriors and wipe them out completing the massacre.

Things i can say from this game, Ironbreakers are one hell of an anvil. Even against GW chaos warriors you're getting 6+ 5++, after 6 rounds of combat i still had 7 left though i was lucky to an extent that my runesmith in the unit spent 4 of them in a challenge with his champion and neither could hurt the other. Saying that even with the AP from the runesmith they struggle to kill T4 opponents when not charging.

A horde of GW longbeards hits like a ton of bricks and a horde of hammerers hits even harder. They are both very expensive units but if they get into combat they will kill pretty much any thing. True it is after only one game against a fairly soft list with no shooting so they got their alive and i cant see a pure combat list working without vanguard. I'll play a few more games over the coming weeks and see what happens.

teafloy_the_damned
19-02-2014, 06:57
GrudgeBringer...... Beautifull.
A few more months of refining this Vanugarding 18" first turn move army and Dwarfs will be seen in a new light by everyone

Shame on you for not squeezing a cannon in though (offers you the red dye)

Soulless
19-02-2014, 07:43
@GrudgeBringer

I'll let you on a secret. Your opponent must have been indeed tzeentch follower as he led you to false conclusion. He let you use illegal list ( Specials you claim you fought with are worth 1410 pts not giving hammerers shields - so if you played 2500 pts you were over specials limit. To fit those points in special you would need to play at least 2900 pts and then you have too few core ...), he took lest points then you (Those things you mentioned cost 2420 and your opponent 2410 pts upgrading characters as I would - lvl 4 mutations 4+ ward saves). On top of that he took worse kind of army composition for dealing with dwarfs. If your opponent is as deceptive as me he let you win to lull you into comfort state and from now on he will massacre you (unless he is total tool and lets him be cheated by some beardy midget :D)

Sh4d0w
19-02-2014, 08:14
Just because you keep repeating this over and over does not make it true. For 65 points you get a banner that not only makes you dispell on a 4+ it also removes remains in play spells every friendly magic phase. You've said before that dwarfs have to spend more to get semi decent magic defence. Tell me what other army gets to dispell on a 4+ for 65 points without taking a character specifically for the roll of casting/dispelling. Not only that you never break concentration.

Add to that the ability to channel dice and take multiple dispell scrolls dwarfs become the best anti magic in the game. Sorry Monty, but all your doomsaying about magic rolling dwarfs is completely unfounded.

Well for me, I agree with Montegue, for 65 points we get what? The ability to be on par with other armies, admittedly with the added bonus of 3+ dispelling of RIP. We then spend points on runesmiths, internet wisdom at the moment says 2, 1 spellbreaker and 1 spelleater. Now when you add points on for shields and Rostones its suddenly adding up to 250+ points. So we are spending more than the average mage lord for a slightly better magic defense but absolutely no magic offense, this just does not seem fair. I do understand yes that they do give armour piercing but this does force use to put them in the front lines, t4, 2+ armour, 2 wounds is not that hard to kill. Meanwhile their offensive mage can sit back safe in the little bunker with very little threat. I also think what a lot of people are forgetting is that yes we have the dispel RIP banner but at the same time we aren't casting any RIP at them either, they have free reign of their magic phase, against other armies they would sometimes need to save power dice to get rid of RIP spells.

Kayosiv
19-02-2014, 08:47
I don't like all this talk about Runesmith's being bad.

They give a unit armor piercing. There's a flag that does this, it costs 45 points and I see it taken frequently.

Magic resistance 1 costs 15 points. It is not great but it is certainly not worthless. It might never come into effect, but you also might be fighting savage orcs with no armor and never get armor piercing to do anything. The point is that it is included free of cost.

Channeling on a 6+ costs 15 points. I've personally never considered this to be worth 15 points, but again, this is a free upgrade.

So far you'e got your runesmiths costing -10 points. They have the stats of a dwarf warrior who is 8 points, so they're really -18 points. Oh wait, they have an extra attack like a unit champion, so they're really -28 points.

So for -28 points compared to a regular dwarf warrior you get... free gromril armor. Oh yeah, and a free extra wound.

Oh my. How terrible.

I haven't seen the new book so let me know if I have any of the above points wrong.

If correct though, runesmiths are essentially figthtier versions of warrior priests who instead of maybe doing something with bound spells, always do something with passive buffs. If you want to trick them out you can, but I would keep mine cheap with a few low end survivability upgrades and runes. Even if he's killed in combat he'll be absorbing attacks that the unit won't have to take.

Runelords on the other hand I see as very questionable, especially because the Anvil of Doom is so unfortunately lackluster. With only 3 "spells" and 1 of them being stupidly useless, perhaps the dwarf player can count on getting at least armor piercing or +1 armor every magic phase. Whether that is worth several hundred points is highly questionable though.

underscore
19-02-2014, 10:09
So we are spending more than the average mage lord for a slightly better magic defense.
Well, the main point is that having a constant +4 to dispel and 2 scrolls is a rather strong magic defence, hardly 'slightly better'. Especially when there's a chance you'll never see one of those spells again all game..

Soulless
19-02-2014, 10:36
Do You know how much this constant +4 and 2 scrolls cost or are you guessing ?

underscore
19-02-2014, 10:37
I'm going off Sh4ow's post.

CauCaSus
19-02-2014, 10:39
By taking the Stormbanner

Soulless
19-02-2014, 10:46
Well as I now have slow day at work I will ponder some things that make dwarf players hate me even more.

1. Gyrocopter cannot shoot after marching - seems obvious - some players speak as they thought its possible - nothing prohibits use of bombs after marching but no 1 turn steaming on larger armies with cheep units.

Darnok
19-02-2014, 11:27
Meanwhile their offensive mage can sit back safe in the little bunker with very little threat.

That's what Rangers, Miners and especially Gyrocopters are for. All of them can threaten a "little bunker" easily.

adicto
19-02-2014, 11:35
The AP buff is the one redeeming feature, but really compare prices to what even a L1 Chaos Sorcerer is (who can fight) or if you really want to be depressed, a hero level Ogre wizard. Those guys can certainly fight. Hell, Orc Wizards are not far off when it comes to fighting and they have magic, while being generally inexpensive when compared to the Runesmiths. I get that GW does not want the Dwarves to be able to say "six dice or nothing" every game. Hell, its arguably better for the dwarves that way if they accept that one or two small spells is preferable to getting 6dPSunFTW every game. But the smiths just plain cost too much for what they do.
Chaos sorcerers are chaos warriors with 1 wizard level and no weapon upgrades. They add absolutely nothing to the army. Are they worth 110pts? Of course not, but chaos players take them anyway to bring the Dispell Scroll.

That should be pretty enlightening about how valuable a dispell scroll is, so the little grumpy dwarfs should not complain.

Kingly
19-02-2014, 11:48
That's what Rangers, Miners and especially Gyrocopters are for. All of them can threaten a "little bunker" easily.

Yes those and the multiple amounts of ranged shooty goodness coming from Dwarves. anyone that bunkers against them is going to get pounded by artillery and small weapons fire as well I expect.

Kingly
19-02-2014, 11:49
What I am saying is, nothing is going to change the six dice PSun/Pit thing. That, and I think Smiths are overcosted for what they do and dwarven magic defense took a hit.

Yes, but then that's the same for everyone...It's not a Dwarf weakness it's a 'I spent 250 points on a mage just to pull this one spell off kind of thing'...

Soulless
19-02-2014, 11:57
Yes, but then that's the same for everyone...It's not a Dwarf weakness it's a 'I spent 250 points on a mage just to pull this one spell off kind of thing'...

I value might give you some clue. Elves have 5 so it's not same for them ... WoC have 5 - not same for them ... 1 good purple sun or pit of shades and unit costing 500 points goes down the drain.

underscore
19-02-2014, 12:07
Nurgle Daemons and Ogres, on the other hand...

GrudgeBringer
19-02-2014, 12:10
I'll let you on a secret. Your opponent must have been indeed tzeentch follower as he led you to false conclusion. He let you use illegal list ( Specials you claim you fought with are worth 1410 pts not giving hammerers shields - so if you played 2500 pts you were over specials limit. To fit those points in special you would need to play at least 2900 pts and then you have too few core ...), he took lest points then you (Those things you mentioned cost 2420 and your opponent 2410 pts upgrading characters as I would - lvl 4 mutations 4+ ward saves). On top of that he took worse kind of army composition for dealing with dwarfs. If your opponent is as deceptive as me he let you win to lull you into comfort state and from now on he will massacre you (unless he is total tool and lets him be cheated by some beardy midget :D)

My specials were 29 hammerers and 39 ironbreakers, i say 40 in the unit to include the characters plus 2 gyros without vanguard, a strollaz on the ironbreakers with strollaz and ancestors on the hammerers to make it legal (the longbeards had strollaz and sanctuary) i had no musicians. Combined total 1242 points.

It was a pick up game at my local club and we both used lists we already had printed out, neither of us knew what army we were facing before the game started.

Borgomos
19-02-2014, 12:12
I value might give you some clue. Elves have 5 so it's not same for them ... WoC have 5 - not same for them ... 1 good purple sun or pit of shades and unit costing 500 points goes down the drain.

I am so tired of hearing this. Orcs have low I. Ogres have Low I. Tomb Kings have low I. Most of the Vampire army has low I. non-skink Lizardmen have low I. Humans have meager I.

It's as if none of these armies lose XXX points of models due to a good purple sun. Must be some kind of special snowflake dwarf curse...

Montegue
19-02-2014, 13:43
I am so tired of hearing this. Orcs have low I. Ogres have Low I. Tomb Kings have low I. Most of the Vampire army has low I. non-skink Lizardmen have low I. Humans have meager I.

It's as if none of these armies lose XXX points of models due to a good purple sun. Must be some kind of special snowflake dwarf curse...

None of those armies have a per model average cost of 10 or more (obviously ogres are the exception, and they gain a whole hell of a lot in the trade off). Really, more like 12 for dwarfs now. Tomb Kings are the only army in that list that move like dwarfs (which is to say, not at all), and they still have access to options that move faster than us and can engage very quickly.

You're painting a false comparison. Yes, purple sun sucks for *everyone*, but it doesn't suck for anyone like it sucks for dwarfs. And ogres. It sucks a whole lot for them.

We used to be able to wrap a powerful anti magic up with a modestly tanky Runelord who served as general. Now we have to split our much more meager defense between two Runesmiths who admittedly buff the unit they are in, but only provide protection from two spells at a cost approximately equal to a build that used to offer a 4 dice swing.

BUT THAT WAS OVERPOWERED!!! They say, as if Dwarfs were out there dominating the tournament scene with their magic al defense. *eyeroll*.

What they failed to do was change that defense out for something useful for us to do during our own magic phase. You know, fun for *us*, the people buying and playing the army? If Dwarfs had access to a wizard in any form - rune priest like, etc - that had options that were worth the cost (read: not the anvil), Dwarf players would have zero reason to complain. This is a genuine weakness of the army, it's a huge hole in 8th edition, it presents a severe challenge for Dwarfs to be competitive in an all comers environment, and it's going to force us to blow a lot of points on a weakened magic defense just to have a shot. And our available points have gone down significantly in the new book.

underscore
19-02-2014, 14:38
Expecting your book to remain overpowered in a particular area because of a single spell (that you wouldn't be able to do anything about if IF'd anyway) seems like a rather bad idea to me.

GrandmasterWang
19-02-2014, 14:38
So now instead of a Runelord leading an army under the old book you will see dwarf armies led by Dwarf Lords or Thanes with a runesmith or 2 to back them up?

Great! Sounds more like the dwarf armies I read about in the background :)

Dwarfs are my main and largest army and I got the new book as soon as it was released.

I plan on trying different army builds at 2 & 2.5k with 'light' magic defence. Master Rune of Valaya with hammerer block and a runesmith with spellbreaker rune. This gives me a dispel scroll and +4 to dispel all for 'crippling' price of 75 skaven slaves. Dwarf magic defence is about right with the new book I think. Seriously. .. the 'light' defence I just listed is a bargain that other armies would be jealous of. In terms of pure defence I don't think it can be matched.

Overall I think the dwarf book is a solid release and as a long time dwarf player I feel it does them justice and look forward to my bearded ones bashing heads up close and personal!

GrudgeBringer
19-02-2014, 14:48
I plan on trying different army builds at 2 & 2.5k with 'light' magic defence. Master Rune of Valaya with hammerer block and a runesmith with spellbreaker rune. This gives me a dispel scroll and +4 to dispel all for 'crippling' price of 75 skaven slaves. Dwarf magic defence is about right with the new book I think. Seriously. .. the 'light' defence I just listed is a bargain that other armies would be jealous of. In terms of pure defence I don't think it can be matched.

Overall I think the dwarf book is a solid release and as a long time dwarf player I feel it does them justice and look forward to my bearded ones bashing heads up close and personal!

I agree entirly though i reckon i will take 2 runesmiths every time, 1 with a spellbreaker and the other with a spelleater. The 50/50 to destroy purple sun is too good to pass up now especially since it is cheaper than it used to be and balance got nerfed to hell.

Devaroze
19-02-2014, 17:20
Well for me, I agree with Montegue, for 65 points we get what? The ability to be on par with other armies, admittedly with the added bonus of 3+ dispelling of RIP. We then spend points on runesmiths, internet wisdom at the moment says 2, 1 spellbreaker and 1 spelleater. Now when you add points on for shields and Rostones its suddenly adding up to 250+ points. So we are spending more than the average mage lord for a slightly better magic defense but absolutely no magic offense, this just does not seem fair. I do understand yes that they do give armour piercing but this does force use to put them in the front lines, t4, 2+ armour, 2 wounds is not that hard to kill. Meanwhile their offensive mage can sit back safe in the little bunker with very little threat. I also think what a lot of people are forgetting is that yes we have the dispel RIP banner but at the same time we aren't casting any RIP at them either, they have free reign of their magic phase, against other armies they would sometimes need to save power dice to get rid of RIP spells.
For 65 points you get what other armies have to spend 200+ points for on a character that hasn't even been taken other upgrades. This is a passive ability for the army not the runesmith, they are not the ones doing the dispelling. If you wanted you can get away with not even taking them and still have that 4+ to dispell.
Also the secondary ability that removes remains in play spells on a 3+, players with high magic have to use casting dice to have access to a similar ability.

Lord Solar Plexus
19-02-2014, 18:26
None of those armies have a per model average cost of 10 or more

That's true. My Empire League list against HE had an average model cost of 23. Against DoC, it was 22. My last tournament list had an average cost of 41.67.

Poor Dwarfs! ;)

moonlapse
19-02-2014, 18:44
For 65 points you get what other armies have to spend 200+ points for on a character that hasn't even been taken other upgrades. This is a passive ability for the army not the runesmith, they are not the ones doing the dispelling. If you wanted you can get away with not even taking them and still have that 4+ to dispell.
Also the secondary ability that removes remains in play spells on a 3+, players with high magic have to use casting dice to have access to a similar ability.

Other armies spend 200+ points just for +4 to dispel? No, I didn't think so. They spend 200+ points for +4 to dispel, +4 to cast, 4 SPELLS, and arcane items.

The secondary ability is worthless - no competitive build is going to include an Anvil, so dwarfs have nothing to cast in the magic phase, which means they don't need any help to dispel RiP spells, since they can just use all their power dice to do this.

Phazael
19-02-2014, 19:01
The real issue with Runesmiths/lords is not the costing of their abilities taken in a vacuum. It is more a case of the synergies and how they apply to the combined whole. The MR1 is not a lot of good without stacking it in a unit that has some ward on its own or in a unit with characters with ward saves. The AP is the one good part of the guy if you consider the Razor Standard's cost, but then also realized that a two wound 2+ save guy can be ganked while the standard cannot. Basically, unless you are stuffing them into character laden hordes (which takes you back to the castle army), you are paying a price markup on a lot of abilities you really are not using. Really, I see two of these guys stuffed into quarreler units acting as scroll caddies and granting AP being the most efficient use, but you are still paying a ton for that.

In defense of the Anvil (and it is crapola), being able to add dice to defense and six dice the armor boost buff on Hammerers does have value. It is sad that it has been reduced to that, however.

underscore
19-02-2014, 19:07
Other armies spend 200+ points just for +4 to dispel? No, I didn't think so. They spend 200+ points for +4 to dispel, +4 to cast, 4 SPELLS, and arcane items.

Dwarfs don't pay 200+ points for +4 to dispel either, that's on a 65 point Banner Rune.

Horus38
19-02-2014, 19:25
None of those armies have a per model average cost of 10 or more (obviously ogres are the exception, and they gain a whole hell of a lot in the trade off). Really, more like 12 for dwarfs now

As every Lizardmen players with saurus raises an eyebrow...

Xerkics
19-02-2014, 19:26
Dwarfs don't pay 200+ points for +4 to dispel either, that's on a 65 point Banner Rune.

Dwarfs don't get to cast spells that can kill 200+ points of unit in 1 spell. Lv4 wizards do .

Vipoid
19-02-2014, 19:33
Dwarfs don't get to cast spells that can kill 200+ points of unit in 1 spell. Lv4 wizards do .

Depends what lore they use.

Amazing as this might sound, not all of us use Lv4s just to cast Purple Sun.

moonlapse
19-02-2014, 19:34
Dwarfs don't pay 200+ points for +4 to dispel either, that's on a 65 point Banner Rune.

I know (??), I was responding to the text I quoted, which said that dwarfs only have to pay 65 points to get something other races have to spend 200 points for, which is not true.

Urgat
19-02-2014, 19:37
People are still stuck to the dispell thing? How can a dead horse be flogged so much and not break apart?
It's not like dwarfs are the only ones to suffer during their opponent's magic phase. You'd think everybody else comes with incredible magic defense, and that dwarfs are the only ones to suffer from spells that target initiative or something.

underscore
19-02-2014, 19:48
Dwarfs don't get to cast spells that can kill 200+ points of unit in 1 spell. Lv4 wizards do .
Which, I guess, is why it's 135pts+ cheaper.

Kahadras
19-02-2014, 19:50
Dwarfs don't get to cast spells that can kill 200+ points of unit in 1 spell. Lv4 wizards do.

However that does come with the qualifier that Dwarf don't get to have a 200 point potential miscast magnet that might not even roll up that 'kill 200 points of unit in 1 spell' spell.

Urgat
19-02-2014, 20:07
Which, I guess, is why it's 135pts+ cheaper.
Pah, triffles. Now, of course, if you put a cannon that can kill a 200points giant in one shot along, does it balance out? :shifty:

Xerkics
19-02-2014, 21:05
Pah, triffles. Now, of course, if you put a cannon that can kill a 200points giant in one shot along, does it balance out? :shifty:
Empire can have both wizards and cannons so can ogres and their wizards are beastly in cc compared to other wizards . Your point. Is what exactly? Greater DEmon wizards plus skull cannons ? Cannons balance out lack of magic now? Oh please.

Urgat
19-02-2014, 21:12
Empire can have both wizards and cannons so can ogres and their wizards are beastly in cc compared to other wizards . Your point. Is what exactly? Greater DEmon wizards plus skull cannons ? Cannons balance out lack of magic now? Oh please.
Skavens can't. The three elf armies can't. WoC can't. TK and VC can't. OnG can't. LM can't. You want me to spell out what my point is? "Oh please" my ***, right. The fricken majority of the armies have to deal with it. As if picking the three exceptions in the game has any meaning.
Dwarfs can drop more templates a turn than a bright wizard can fart fireballs in a full game, and we're supposed to pity them? Like hell :p

The bearded one
19-02-2014, 21:50
People are still stuck to the dispell thing? How can a dead horse be flogged so much and not break apart?
It's not like dwarfs are the only ones to suffer during their opponent's magic phase. You'd think everybody else comes with incredible magic defense, and that dwarfs are the only ones to suffer from spells that target initiative or something.

The horse is most likely flogged to death because it's the major petpeeve of the book. Everything else is fairly minor.

Dwarfs are not the only one to suffer during their opponent's magic phase, as other armies do not come with an incredible magic defence either. Most people's average magic defence is a lvl4 to dispel and a scroll (~225). A dwarf army with a runesmith with scroll and the master rune of valaya (150pts) is about the same, barring not losing concentration. People feel that 75pt discrepancy to be a bit small for not being able to cast spells. Do dwarfs want a magic phase for it? Trolol, no. Do they want the magic defence of yore back? Nah, we acknowledge that's rather overkill. What we'd have preferred? A magic defence at least a little bit better than almost the same as everybody else. Little things like channeling on a 5+ or the like. Is it even going to change anything if this is acknowledged? Ha, no. But it'd feel nice for dwarf players to have some moderately vindicated grumbles (it's not like they've roflstomped everyone for years and are now "getting what they deserve"*) if other people acknowledged magic defence is somewhat minor for the race famed for antimagic, short of throwing stupendous amounts of points at it. It's not vastly minor, but it is a little. You can continue throwing 100 points per scroll, but it's a bit like upping your magic defence by taking 10 necromancers to get lots of channels :D at some point it's just not worth the points anymore ;)

If it makes you feel any better, you'll quite likely not see grudgethrowers anymore, because they can only get 1 pt of strength extra, and that one point of strength is a lot more expensive than before. The template staple of the dwarf army is going to be str3 templates from gyrocopters.


* actually, the players who will be hurt more are our opponents, who might spend even more time facing down gunlines, except now most of these gunlines might be stubborn, with increased armour, parrysaves and runesmith armourpiercing on their missileunits (or countercharging with a strength bonus), all the while being harassed by the gyrocopter circus ;)

Phazael
19-02-2014, 22:23
People are still stuck to the dispell thing? How can a dead horse be flogged so much and not break apart?
It's not like dwarfs are the only ones to suffer during their opponent's magic phase. You'd think everybody else comes with incredible magic defense, and that dwarfs are the only ones to suffer from spells that target initiative or something.

The average Dwarf player believes they should be able to stuff all opposing magic. It is pretty much the same reaction LM players had when the Slaan lost the bonus dice.

Xerkics
19-02-2014, 23:27
Skavens can't. The three elf armies can't. WoC can't. TK and VC can't. OnG can't. LM can't. You want me to spell out what my point is? "Oh please" my ***, right. The fricken majority of the armies have to deal with it. As if picking the three exceptions in the game has any meaning.
Dwarfs can drop more templates a turn than a bright wizard can fart fireballs in a full game, and we're supposed to pity them? Like hell :p
It's not an exception it's a significant portion of all armies played I just demonstrated that your argument that dwarfs having no magic phase is balanced by them having cannons is absurd since other armies can have really good cannons and magic at the same time . Also last time I checked skaven warp lightning cannons exist in the same book as skaven mages. You can't call almost one third of all armies in the game an exception. Also why are you raging no one is goin about pity. Why are you so angry lose a lot to dwarfs?

There is nothing potentially as game changing as wizards in the current version of the game. Sure a cannon can kill monsters but is largely useless against blocks of infantry and you can take cannonballs on a ward save most of the lv6 spells don't even allow you saves. The utility of being able to cast a debuff or buff at right time can swing the battle killing 4 skaven slaves with a cannonball won't . Casting something as simple as Wyldform by even lv1 wizard can .

You should stop your hatred off warmachines blinding you to obvious logic here. Also people claiming that dwarfs have some sort of entitlement to shut down entire magic phase and are whining now is just hate. Most of people have been more than reasonable rather than the image the haters been trying to paint here.

ewar
19-02-2014, 23:54
None of those armies have a per model average cost of 10 or more (obviously ogres are the exception, and they gain a whole hell of a lot in the trade off). Really, more like 12 for dwarfs now. Tomb Kings are the only army in that list that move like dwarfs (which is to say, not at all), and they still have access to options that move faster than us and can engage very quickly.

You're painting a false comparison. Yes, purple sun sucks for *everyone*, but it doesn't suck for anyone like it sucks for dwarfs. And ogres. It sucks a whole lot for them.

We used to be able to wrap a powerful anti magic up with a modestly tanky Runelord who served as general. Now we have to split our much more meager defense between two Runesmiths who admittedly buff the unit they are in, but only provide protection from two spells at a cost approximately equal to a build that used to offer a 4 dice swing.

BUT THAT WAS OVERPOWERED!!! They say, as if Dwarfs were out there dominating the tournament scene with their magic al defense. *eyeroll*.

What they failed to do was change that defense out for something useful for us to do during our own magic phase. You know, fun for *us*, the people buying and playing the army? If Dwarfs had access to a wizard in any form - rune priest like, etc - that had options that were worth the cost (read: not the anvil), Dwarf players would have zero reason to complain. This is a genuine weakness of the army, it's a huge hole in 8th edition, it presents a severe challenge for Dwarfs to be competitive in an all comers environment, and it's going to force us to blow a lot of points on a weakened magic defense just to have a shot. And our available points have gone down significantly in the new book.

Actually PSUN sucks more fore Lizardmen I think who have at least equal model cost with Dwarfs (he specified non-skink armies) and we also generally bring a couple of single high value models who have initiative 1. Aren't Dwarfs at least initiative 2 as well? Making them twice as survivable as saurus.

You don't have to be winning everything to ruin games, the old dwarf magic defence was completely insane in 8th edition, it was always going to get binned. Don't cry about it, you don't get magic offence the same way many armies don't get warmachine offence - at least you have a modicum of protection in the magic phase.

Xerkics
20-02-2014, 00:01
What is this BS again about Dwarf players whining about losing magic defence? Do you people read some special forum we don't get access to so far all dwarf players were asking for was to be able to do something FUN in the magic phase not shut it down, and warmachine offence is not an excuse as other armies can have both magic and good warmachines . Our anti magic is sufficient as is but magic phase will still be boring.

ewar
20-02-2014, 00:03
What is this BS again about Dwarf players whining about losing magic defence? Do you people read some special forum we don't get access to so far all dwarf players were asking for was to be able to do something FUN in the magic phase not shut it down, and warmachine offence is not an excuse as other armies can have both magic and good warmachines .

And they are widely acknowledged by the player base to balls up the game nicely, so not a great prospect to base future army book balance on.

Xerkics
20-02-2014, 00:08
And they are widely acknowledged by the player base to balls up the game nicely, so not a great prospect to base future army book balance on.

Dwarf army balance in curent book IMO is based around flexibility to tailor runes on things like banners to address specific threats not on because cannons are so op. Runes are good but not as good as wizards . If magic wasn't this strong dispel scrolls wouldn't be considered auto includes. And why dwarf anti magic was so absurd before because you were pretty much guaranteed to meet a wizard.

theunwantedbeing
20-02-2014, 00:14
Magic.
Seeing as their magical defence got nerfed to a reasonable level, I can now cast spells without having to hope for irresistible force.

Movement.
They're still mv3 and that (to them at least) means it is completely impossible for them to ever get the charge on me or indeed not get at least flanked.

Combat.
As above, I'll always get a flank charge at least, so winning will be easy given that my magic dominance means I will always have a bunch of buffs to make it impossible not to lose combat.
Also they don't have MI or MC or stuff like that so it'll never even be close to a fair fight.

And that is how I will beat the new dwarves.

Xerkics
20-02-2014, 00:18
Magic.
Seeing as their magical defence got nerfed to a reasonable level, I can now cast spells without having to hope for irresistible force.

Movement.
They're still mv3 and that (to them at least) means it is completely impossible for them to ever get the charge on me or indeed not get at least flanked.

Combat.
As above, I'll always get a flank charge at least, so winning will be easy given that my magic dominance means I will always have a bunch of buffs to make it impossible not to lose combat.
Also they don't have MI or MC or stuff like that so it'll never even be close to a fair fight.

And that is how I will beat the new dwarves.

I think people tend not to bring a lot of monsters vs dwarfs because they expect a gazillions cannons.

Kahadras
20-02-2014, 00:31
If magic wasn't this strong dispel scrolls wouldn't be considered auto includes. And why dwarf anti magic was so absurd before because you were pretty much guaranteed to meet a wizard.

Dispel scrolls have been auto includes in armies since they appeared. It's an effective way to counter something your opponant is trying that they've spent time and effort trying to bring about. For example if GW created a magic item for 25 points that said 'prevent an enemy warmachine from shooting for a turn' it would become an auto include as well. In the current edition of the 'super spell' the Dispel Scroll has become even more attractive (and limited). The reason why Dwarf anti magic was nuts under 8th ed was it was designed for an older edition of Warhammer not through any concern over Dwarf armies being annihilated by magic.

Urgat
20-02-2014, 06:24
It's not an exception it's a significant portion of all armies played I just demonstrated that your argument that dwarfs having no magic phase is balanced by them having cannons is absurd since other armies can have really good cannons and magic at the same time . Also last time I checked skaven warp lightning cannons exist in the same book as skaven mages. You can't call almost one third of all armies in the game an exception. Also why are you raging no one is goin about pity. Why are you so angry lose a lot to dwarfs?
Nope, never played against dwarfs once in my life I believe. As for warp lightning cannons, they really have little to do with regular cannons. I'm not angry though, apologies if I sounded like that.


There is nothing potentially as game changing as wizards in the current version of the game. Sure a cannon can kill monsters but is largely useless against blocks of infantry and you can take cannonballs on a ward save most of the lv6 spells don't even allow you saves. The utility of being able to cast a debuff or buff at right time can swing the battle killing 4 skaven slaves with a cannonball won't . Casting something as simple as Wyldform by even lv1 wizard can .
But you got plenty of templates to deal with large blocks. True, you need multiple units to deal with multiple threats, but it's not like wizard can also single-handedly deal with everything each phase either.


You should stop your hatred off warmachines blinding you to obvious logic here. Also people claiming that dwarfs have some sort of entitlement to shut down entire magic phase and are whining now is just hate. Most of people have been more than reasonable rather than the image the haters been trying to paint here.
I have zero hatred for warmachines (didn't say dwarf players wanted to completely shut down enemy magic either), I'm annoyed at the fact dwarf players seem to believe that wizards are the magic (hahaha) tools that win all games with a flicker of the wrist. Not everybody has access to life or shadow, not everybody can turboboost their wizards either. Also, I think most people are decent players who don't always go for 6-dicing 6th spell. Telling you what? I trade my lvl 4 shamans for the gyro family any day.

Zinch
20-02-2014, 08:20
I don't understand that fear people have against mages and the new dwarf magic defense... Ok, is not as good as before, but that's because it was designed for a different edition where everybody got PD per mage and could take as many Dispell Scrolls as he wanted.

In my 35 games I played of 8th edition, I can count with a hand the ones where one spell has changed the battle in such a way that a 200+ point lv4 mage seemed undercosted. Instead, in a lot of games the points invested in magic are like wasted points (misscast with 2 dices, low winds of magic rolls, mage dying in combat,...)

RasputinII
20-02-2014, 09:00
This thread is funny.
Why do all armies complain about things that were obviously going to disappear with their 8th books? All the relics of 6th and 7th that don't sit right with the direction of 8th were going to go. Everyone knew dwarfs would loose the 6th ed magic defense. If you want to take hordes of hammerers it should be vulnerable to horde killing spells just like every other army is.

As for the idea that not being able to cast means you should be ace at dispelling, that don't fly. My beastmen can't shoot. That doesn't mean they should all have built in protection. These character traits, strength and weaknesses are what make the armies unique and different. I'm down with that.

Rake
20-02-2014, 11:24
Zinch, your comment of "In my 35 games I played of 8th edition, I can count with a hand the ones where one spell has changed the battle in such a way that a 200+ point lv4 mage seemed undercosted. Instead, in a lot of games the points invested in magic are like wasted points (misscast with 2 dices, low winds of magic rolls, mage dying in combat,...)" is just funny. Try Purple Sun/Soulblight on turn 3.

Answer to Dwarves: Lore of Shadow. Multiple threatning spells. Short of that? Outplay the bugger cause he just has better options than you do.

Rake
20-02-2014, 11:25
Zinch, your comment of "In my 35 games I played of 8th edition, I can count with a hand the ones where one spell has changed the battle in such a way that a 200+ point lv4 mage seemed undercosted. Instead, in a lot of games the points invested in magic are like wasted points (misscast with 2 dices, low winds of magic rolls, mage dying in combat,...)" is just funny. Try Purple Sun/Soulblight on turn 3.

Answer to Dwarves: Lore of Shadow. Multiple threatning spells. Short of that? Outplay the bugger cause he just has better options than you do.

Rake
20-02-2014, 11:28
Zinch, your comment of "In my 35 games I played of 8th edition, I can count with a hand the ones where one spell has changed the battle in such a way that a 200+ point lv4 mage seemed undercosted. Instead, in a lot of games the points invested in magic are like wasted points (misscast with 2 dices, low winds of magic rolls, mage dying in combat,...)" is just funny. Try Purple Sun/Soulblight on turn 3. I agree that multiple dispel are tough... but MR does almost nothing this game, AP is pointless when your entire army is S5/6. Then hes spent 360 + points on anti magic and multiple spells per turn still have a chance to hurt him bad.

Answer to Dwarves: Lore of Shadow. Multiple threatning spells. Short of that? Outplay the bugger cause he just has better options than you do.

GrudgeBringer
20-02-2014, 11:38
Magic.
Seeing as their magical defence got nerfed to a reasonable level, I can now cast spells without having to hope for irresistible force.

Movement.
They're still mv3 and that (to them at least) means it is completely impossible for them to ever get the charge on me or indeed not get at least flanked.

Combat.
As above, I'll always get a flank charge at least, so winning will be easy given that my magic dominance means I will always have a bunch of buffs to make it impossible not to lose combat.
Also they don't have MI or MC or stuff like that so it'll never even be close to a fair fight.

And that is how I will beat the new dwarves.

I am curious as to which army you play and the types of lists. Unless you play a lot of pure cavalry lists dwarfs will be charging you a lot more than they were before because agressive combat lists are now viable and our average charge distance is only 1 or 2 inches less that other infantry (excluding ogres), also Hammerers and GW long beards are perfectly capable now of going toe to toe with large units of chaos warriors and beating the hell out of them.

If you get a flank charge on dwarf unit and the person playing them has any skill there will almost certainly be another dwarf unit ready to take you in the flank in the following turn. I plan to test Ironbreakers with an oathstone and a rune of stoicism in future games and march them straight forwards in the middle of my line and invite the huge combo charges. With 3+ armour and 5+ parry in all directions with stubborn LD10 there wont be many things capable of killing 40 of them in less than 3 rounds of combat by which time the rest of my army will be piling into my opponents flanks.

Gyros and 5 man ranger units now also make excellent redirectors and blockers to prevent flank charges.

Kahadras
20-02-2014, 12:15
I am curious as to which army you play

I'd say Ogres from the 'impossible to get the charge' statement.

GrudgeBringer
20-02-2014, 12:25
Ogres are not that difficult to charge with dwarfs since they do not have swift stride and thus still need to be 13-15 inches away to have a good chance of making it in. A single rune of slownes would give them an over 80% chance of failing even at only 14 away followed by an over 50% chance that the dwarfs would make it in afteryou failed.

Zinch
20-02-2014, 13:34
Zinch, your comment of "In my 35 games I played of 8th edition, I can count with a hand the ones where one spell has changed the battle in such a way that a 200+ point lv4 mage seemed undercosted. Instead, in a lot of games the points invested in magic are like wasted points (misscast with 2 dices, low winds of magic rolls, mage dying in combat,...)" is just funny. Try Purple Sun/Soulblight on turn 3. I agree that multiple dispel are tough... but MR does almost nothing this game, AP is pointless when your entire army is S5/6. Then hes spent 360 + points on anti magic and multiple spells per turn still have a chance to hurt him bad.

Answer to Dwarves: Lore of Shadow. Multiple threatning spells. Short of that? Outplay the bugger cause he just has better options than you do.

What I said didn't imply that we haven't tried it out, but there are so many variables that a devastating purple sun (or any uber-spell) resolving and changing the battle is a very unreliable outcome to say the least...

The opponent can try 6-dicing a purple sun, but I won't leave home without at least one spelleater, so he has to get enough dices, get an IF and not get a missfire AND still then he has to put the wizard in a good spot or the vortex will only affect one unit. This is what I call an unreliable weapon...

I agree that a bunch of medium spells will be better against dwarfs now, but I think is not the end of the world: the book has tools against any enemy...

Kahadras
20-02-2014, 13:44
Ogres are not that difficult to charge with dwarfs since they do not have swift stride and thus still need to be 13-15 inches away to have a good chance of making it in. A single rune of slownes would give them an over 80% chance of failing even at only 14 away followed by an over 50% chance that the dwarfs would make it in afteryou failed.

I think the idea is that with premeasuring you can sit movement 6 infantry in a butterzone where it's fairly easy to make a charge with them (say 13 inches). If a Dwarf player wants to charge you he needs a 10 on his 2D6 and if he fails the charge he's going to put himself within even easier charge range of the Ogres. The only thing the Dwarfs have going for them is the Rune of Slowness which they'd need on multiple units. I've not even mentioned stuff like Mornfang Cavalry or Swiftstriding Maneaters :)

Cassius105
20-02-2014, 13:47
I really dont see why people are whining.

We all knew our dispel was being nerfed as it was ridiculous and unfun for anyone. The only thing GW really screwed up here is they should have made the Anvil better so we could have some fun in the magic phase increasing diversity and adding options.

The other thing is you are complaining about the dwarf book but imo the real problem here is the 8th edition magic phase in general. It currently has the potential to have to much of an influence on the game for to little risk. This doesnt mean army books should be used in an attempt to patch it up if GW plan to fix the problem in 9th edition. You cant be certain but I think it is likely that once 9th hits magic will either be toned down or more dangerous to the caster and the dwarf book was probably made with this in mind.

Having said that I think our army has been buffed and is now much more fun to play with an against and im fairly happy with the new book.

I have a few thematic grumbles such as we should have the best armour in the game and such but in terms of power level its looking good to me

Cassius105
20-02-2014, 13:49
I think the idea is that with premeasuring you can sit movement 6 infantry in a butterzone where it's fairly easy to make a charge with them (say 13 inches). If a Dwarf player wants to charge you he needs a 10 on his 2D6 and if he fails the charge he's going to put himself within even easier charge range of the Ogres. The only thing the Dwarfs have going for them is the Rune of Slowness which they'd need on multiple units. I've not even mentioned stuff like Mornfang Cavalry or Swiftstriding Maneaters :)

I havnt played Ogres with the new dwarves but im not to worried about them. Flame cannon is basically designed to eat MI hordes so whilst they will hit me in combat they are going to be severely depleted when they do so and probably desperate to charge whatever unit I set up to hold them in place whilst I flank them

Kahadras
20-02-2014, 13:58
I havnt played Ogres with the new dwarves but im not to worried about them. Flame cannon is basically designed to eat MI hordes so whilst they will hit me in combat they are going to be severely depleted when they do so and probably desperate to charge whatever unit I set up to hold them in place whilst I flank them

Our local Ogre player noted how much of the Dwarf book seems set up to deal with Ogres (strength 5, D3 wounds etc).

stonehorse
20-02-2014, 20:10
Leadbelchers, lots of Leadbelchers.

Glad that they no longer hate Gnoblars... might have to try small units with trappers to cause a bit of damage early on. Other than those two going to hope that Impact hits from Ogre units cause enough damage to weaken the Dwarves.

Might be time to work on those Gorger conversions to deal with their Flame Cannons.

ShivanAngel
21-02-2014, 04:03
Magic isnt the all powerful entity everyone makes it out to be....

People just tend to remember that one time or two a level four irresistible forced a 6 spell, wiped out 700 points in models, and survived the miscast.


They never remember the time that 400+ point wizard rolled low on the winds of magic, never generating more than 5-6 dice, and having their LORD LEVEL 4 wizard recoup ZERO points the entire game... (this happens more than the above example)...

Or when the wizard miscasts on 3 dice casting some puny spell and gets sucked into the warp... trading a 400 point lord for 4-5 models out of a core unit....

Or rolling a 6 and a 1 for the winds and watching as every single one of your spells gets dispelled.

I think dwarven magic defense is right where it needs to be (and I play them)..

I also played magic heavy armies and 8th and can tell you the number of times weak magic phases lost me the game WAY more often than a really strong magic phase won it for me....

Magic is VERY volatile in 8th.... sometimes it wins big, usually its a decent support to your army, and more times than it wins big, it loses the game big for you....

Xerkics
21-02-2014, 13:00
Magic isnt the all powerful entity everyone makes it out to be....

People just tend to remember that one time or two a level four irresistible forced a 6 spell, wiped out 700 points in models, and survived the miscast.


They never remember the time that 400+ point wizard rolled low on the winds of magic, never generating more than 5-6 dice, and having their LORD LEVEL 4 wizard recoup ZERO points the entire game... (this happens more than the above example)...

Or when the wizard miscasts on 3 dice casting some puny spell and gets sucked into the warp... trading a 400 point lord for 4-5 models out of a core unit....

Or rolling a 6 and a 1 for the winds and watching as every single one of your spells gets dispelled.

I think dwarven magic defense is right where it needs to be (and I play them)..

I also played magic heavy armies and 8th and can tell you the number of times weak magic phases lost me the game WAY more often than a really strong magic phase won it for me....

Magic is VERY volatile in 8th.... sometimes it wins big, usually its a decent support to your army, and more times than it wins big, it loses the game big for you....

Warmachines can be pretty volatile too. My hell cannon once spent entire game missing and then exploded killing half a unit of chosen.
Similarly some wizards don't really care about miscasts Ogre wizards pretty much don't care, they will regen wounds anyway and as mi they got lots. You can build a wizard who has little to fear from miscasts.

Kahadras
21-02-2014, 13:25
Similarly some wizards don't really care about miscasts Ogre wizards pretty much don't care, they will regen wounds anyway and as mi they got lots. You can build a wizard who has little to fear from miscasts.

A lot of the time the problems with miscasts aren't from wounds caused as there are ways to get round this (ward saves, spells, magic items, lore attributes, being an Ogre). It's things like forgetting spells/losing magic levels, being sucked into the Realm of Chaos, losing power dice, damaging the unit he's with etc.

Vipoid
21-02-2014, 13:49
Similarly some wizards don't really care about miscasts Ogre wizards pretty much don't care, they will regen wounds anyway and as mi they got lots. You can build a wizard who has little to fear from miscasts.

No, you really can't. There's a 1/3 chance that a miscast will be either Power Drain or Dimensional Cascade and, believe me, *every* wizard cares about them.

The best you could do would be the Slaan discipline that lets you add or subtract one from the miscast result - which halves the chance of getting one of the above.

Alltaken
21-02-2014, 15:33
None of those armies have a per model average cost of 10 or more (obviously ogres are the exception, and they gain a whole hell of a lot in the trade off). Really, more like 12 for dwarfs now. Tomb Kings are the only army in that list that move like dwarfs (which is to say, not at all), and they still have access to options that move faster than us and can engage very quickly.

You're painting a false comparison. Yes, purple sun sucks for *everyone*, but it doesn't suck for anyone like it sucks for dwarfs. And ogres. It sucks a whole lot for them.

We used to be able to wrap a powerful anti magic up with a modestly tanky Runelord who served as general. Now we have to split our much more meager defense between two Runesmiths who admittedly buff the unit they are in, but only provide protection from two spells at a cost approximately equal to a build that used to offer a 4 dice swing.

BUT THAT WAS OVERPOWERED!!! They say, as if Dwarfs were out there dominating the tournament scene with their magic al defense. *eyeroll*.

What they failed to do was change that defense out for something useful for us to do during our own magic phase. You know, fun for *us*, the people buying and playing the army? If Dwarfs had access to a wizard in any form - rune priest like, etc - that had options that were worth the cost (read: not the anvil), Dwarf players would have zero reason to complain. This is a genuine weakness of the army, it's a huge hole in 8th edition, it presents a severe challenge for Dwarfs to be competitive in an all comers environment, and it's going to force us to blow a lot of points on a weakened magic defense just to have a shot. And our available points have gone down significantly in the new book.

Montegue,

Im a LM, my Slann costs 150 skaven slaves, I can field 2 dispell scrolls, but I need a skink priest for that, and cube of darkness can fail every now and then.

Banner of valaya is WAY cheaper than my lord.

On point cost my lvl 4 against your lvl 4 magic resistance you got it cheaper because you dont cast.

Purple sun breaks a bigger hole on me I got the worst general initiative in the game. Worst than undead and dwarfs, lizardmen are the biggest I weakness army out there.
I get no spell eater, 6die screws me worst than you.

Your problem is you cant cast a purple sun or throw various wysans wildform though bound runes. Not magic resistance / defense

From my servoskull

ShivanAngel
21-02-2014, 20:26
I think that dwarven magic defense maybe was nerfed a little to much, but something needed to be done...

Back before i played dwarves I absolutely HATED playing against them because they completely dominated TWO phases of the game... Even as lizards with a fully kitted out slann (quite possibly the strongest caster in the game). I would maybe get 1-2 spells off per GAME.

The mindset of I dont get a magic phase so you shouldnt either is not good for balance or enjoyment of the game. Stronger magic defense that doesnt involve getting every single spell eaten or dispelled would of been nice...

One current issue that hopefully gets fixed in 9th edition is the fact that MR is a little weak in this edition, it does not stop the spells that everyone is really afraid of.

Panzer MkIV
22-02-2014, 01:12
I think that dwarven magic defense maybe was nerfed a little to much, but something needed to be done...

Back before i played dwarves I absolutely HATED playing against them because they completely dominated TWO phases of the game... Even as lizards with a fully kitted out slann (quite possibly the strongest caster in the game). I would maybe get 1-2 spells off per GAME.

The mindset of I dont get a magic phase so you shouldnt either is not good for balance or enjoyment of the game. Stronger magic defense that doesnt involve getting every single spell eaten or dispelled would of been nice...

Some advice from someone who has been playing Dwarfs for 15 years: The best way to deal with Runesmith spammers was using an army without any casters.

It's not fun to invest in 250/300 pts of magic defence if your opponent didn't bring a mage ;)

ShivanAngel
22-02-2014, 03:35
Some advice from someone who has been playing Dwarfs for 15 years: The best way to deal with Runesmith spammers was using an army without any casters.

It's not fun to invest in 250/300 pts of magic defence if your opponent didn't bring a mage ;)

Haha that exactly what i started doing...

We had two dwarf players that brough very heavy magic defense, a dark elf player, 2 vampire counts, and a tomb kings player.

I brought a full combat lizard list with two skink priests for magic defense caddies. Was quite possibly one of the most fun lists I had ever played tbh.

Vipoid
22-02-2014, 10:23
Some advice from someone who has been playing Dwarfs for 15 years: The best way to deal with Runesmith spammers was using an army without any casters.

But that assumes you're tailoring specifically against dwarves - I don't imagine many players having that option. Also, some armies don't have the option of not taking casters - e.g. VCs, TKs.

Furthermore, even if the above is true, the Dwarves can just tailor their list right back and include little or no magic defence.

Finally, do you really think you'll get pity? Your anti-magic is so good that you've forced armies to neglect that entire phase, yet you act like the injured party when they stop bringing magic. :eyebrows:

Soulless
22-02-2014, 12:14
I'm wandering what Warriors of Chaos will use against dwarfs - chariots may not be so great option vs cannons and DP is superb but the amount of reliable firepower dwarfs can bring is trouble for small number elite armies - any Chaos Generals here wanting to contribute ?

Xerkics
22-02-2014, 14:48
I'm wandering what Warriors of Chaos will use against dwarfs - chariots may not be so great option vs cannons and DP is superb but the amount of reliable firepower dwarfs can bring is trouble for small number elite armies - any Chaos Generals here wanting to contribute ?

We ll beat them in manly hand to hand combat of course. What else? Also warded wizard with lore of metal or shadow. Hell cannon and chimera are still viable even with warmachines out there while your troops close, nurgle mark and lore of shadow will mean you'll mince them in cc. Main concern is getting flanked but to be honest copters steam template will struggle to damage chaos wars.

WoC main issue in cc is large trash units IMO when you might win via kills but lose due to rank bonus and run away. Or get tied up for too long and not kill what you want .

Phazael
22-02-2014, 15:30
Yeah perish the thought if WoC players have to actually buy more than one infantry model for their army....

Xerkics
22-02-2014, 15:33
Yeah perish the thought if WoC players have to actually buy more than one infantry model for their army....

Well chaos warriors work why reinvent the wheel? And I wouldn't run chaos knights or skull rushers vs warmachines.

ewar
22-02-2014, 20:18
WoC main issue in cc is large trash units IMO when you might win via kills but lose due to rank bonus and run away. Or get tied up for too long and not kill what you want .

When has that ever happened!? I've never seen a unit of Warriors whiff it's attacks so badly that it didn't at least tie a poor unit on static res. Calling it their main issue is surely nonsensical? I think WoC main issue with dwarfs will be units of 40 stubborn S6 hitters on Ld10. Even a nurgle DP should be wary of going toe to toe with hammerers now.

I think Dwarfs will be very tough for Warriors: warmachines to hard counter chariot and monster spam, probably stubborn across the board, decent magic defence. It will probably devolve into whether the prince can IF PSOX across their lines before he gets cannoned to death... I didn't say it would be a fun game :)

GrudgeBringer
22-02-2014, 23:34
If the DP fails to IF purple sun there is a 50% chance he wont be able to cast it again due to spelleaters being in ever list and as i showed earlier in this thread units of 30 chaos warriors cant go head to head with hordes of GW dwarfs, even with mark of nurgle. The warriors are more expensive man for man and the dwarfs pretty much match them on stats now. 3 Skullcrushers plus a lord and a BsB will do alot of dmg on the charge but even they will get ground out by great weapons.

With ever dwarf horde being stubborn grinding them out doesnt seem possible, i am sure there are ways for chaos to do it but the only thing i can think of right now is the hell cannon. Str stone thowers hurt, i know dwarfs used to have 1 and hammerers/GW longbeards only have 5+ armour. Also the master rune of grungi is far less likely to appear now so few 5+ wards against shooting.

Panzer MkIV
23-02-2014, 02:01
If you're going to take on dwarfs with Warriors of Chaos you'll need to spread out your damage potential: don't take deathstars but use smaller units e.g. 2x15 Chaos Warriors instead of 1x30. It will also disperse the incoming warmachine shots making it less effective.

Use your vastly superior mobilty to hit the Dwarfs where their battle line is the most vulnerable: Even a 2000pts Dwarf army that is turtling around a hill in the corner has a soft spot like a unit of Quarrelers, thunderers or slayers. Deploy your infantry vis--vis your opponent's main combat units to make sure that, for example, the hammerers can't expose their flanks to intercept your more mobile CC-units that are heading for that weak spot.

If you have to take on a Dwarf unit head-on do NOT fight them 1-on-1 but pile in as many CC-units as you can on one target and exploit the mobilty granted by Warhounds and Marauder horsemen to cover the flanks of that combat. Don't underestimate the value of chaff units versus Dwarfs.

Dwarfs are not the kind of army that can be beaten by just blunt force: you'll need a real strategy.

Panzer MkIV, Dwarf player for 15 years and Chaos Warrior player for 12 years.

Xerkics
23-02-2014, 03:16
When has that ever happened!? I've never seen a unit of Warriors whiff it's attacks so badly that it didn't at least tie a poor unit on static res. Calling it their main issue is surely nonsensical? I think WoC main issue with dwarfs will be units of 40 stubborn S6 hitters on Ld10. Even a nurgle DP should be wary of going toe to toe with hammerers now.

I think Dwarfs will be very tough for Warriors: warmachines to hard counter chariot and monster spam, probably stubborn across the board, decent magic defence. It will probably devolve into whether the prince can IF PSOX across their lines before he gets cannoned to death... I didn't say it would be a fun game :)

It can be hard against skaven sometimes you just don't gave the ranks and the LD is like yah only flaw chaos warriors have if your unit got shot up on the way in for example . I I didn't say it happens all the time.

HurrDurr
24-02-2014, 05:28
Hell cannons should be great against Dwarves and out-range everything they have, unless I'm misremembering or they changed it Dwarven cannons were/are 48" and Hell cannon is 60". 33% chance to roll a hit on the scatter and plant d6 STR 10 hits on something. So a template with a (considered super duper op by internet) cannon ball in the center. Against a castling dwarf army I think 2 Hell cannons would be auto-win. But I wouldn't take 2, that's just not nice.

I do almost always have a unit of Tzeentch chosen with the blasted standard + iron curse + MR and shields which is also great against gunlines.

The bearded one
24-02-2014, 05:59
Don't forget the artillery dice and the bounce can extend a cannon's range by up to 20", and dwarven grudgethrowers have 60" range back.

HurrDurr
24-02-2014, 22:56
Good to know but overall still in favor of the chaos I would say. Considering non-tailored vs non-tailored lists (only one Hcannon, no assumptions on crazy wardsave tzeentch wizard discing around and 6 dicing spells to eliminate siege)

Montegue
25-02-2014, 02:40
Yeah perish the thought if WoC players have to actually buy more than one infantry model for their army....

I lol'd in rl.


I feel better about our competitive chances after this past weekend. I saw a lot of moments in the Masters where the new book's toys and passive buffs would have made a serious difference in what I could do on the table and the threat I could present to my opponents. Just a 12" stubborn banner could really mess with a lot of the current badboy's day.

Litcheur
26-02-2014, 15:45
Ok so the book is right around the corner - how your army will adapt and what will you change with the not - op but we must pretend it is new book ?

Haven't played against them yet, but I guess a meteor in their deployment zone should work ? :D

SpanielBear
26-02-2014, 16:09
Haven't played against them yet, but I guess a meteor in their deployment zone should work ? :D

That assumes they don't just eat the meteor...

Lore of Heavens Wizard: "And I call down the very rocks of heaven upon you foul and bearded dwarves, tremble at you impending doom! Yea, and there shall be a great light in the skies, and the howling of the wind, and the world will be made clear of thy presence through purging, furious flame!!!"

Dwarf Rune-Smith: "OM-NOM-NOM".

Lore of Heavens Wizard: "Well... ****."

*cue artillery barrage*