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Spiney Norman
10-02-2014, 20:48
P. 58 of the Necron Codex (5th Ed)

"The sunken chambers are crowned with artefacts of all forms: the fabled wraith bone choir of Altansar, the preserved head of Sebastian Thor, the ossified husk of an Enslaver and a giant of a man clad in baroque power armour."

Assuming that this 'giant of a man' is indeed a space marine primarch, which one would/could it be?

A good starting point would be to rule out those we know it definitely isn't (by virtue of them being somewhere else)
1. Roboute Guilliman (Temple of Correction, Macragge)
2. Lion El'Jonson (Secret chamber within The Rock)
3. Horus (dead)
4. Sanguinius (dead)
5. Ferrus Manus (dead)
6. Rogal Dorn (dead)
7. Konrad Curze (dead)
8. Fulgrim (Ascended)
9. Angron (Ascended)
10. Mortarion (Ascended)
11. Magnus (Ascended)
12. Lorgar (Ascended)
13. Perturabo (Ascended)

That leaves us with 5 possibilities
1. Corvus Corax (lost in the Eye of Terror?)
2. Jaghatai Khan (lost in the warp?)
3. Leman Russ (lost in the Eye of Terror?)
4. Vulkan (missing?)
5. Alpharius Omegon (?)

Of the 5 I probably favour Vulkan, Necrons aren't known for their expeditions into the warp, but its entirely possible that Corax, Khan or Russ dropped out of the warp and found Trazyn waiting for them, personally I think Alpharius (if he is still alive) is probably too canny to have trazyn pull the wool over his eyes.

Theocracity
10-02-2014, 21:17
With the caveat that I don't think it has to be a Primarch, I would nominate Khan. Mostly because the Necron codex spent time setting up a rivalry with the White Scars, so it seems appropriate.

That's also separate from my personal view of what happened to Khan, but that view's a bit idiosyncratic and has nothing to do with anything that's actually printed :).

Lord Damocles
10-02-2014, 21:32
Why would we even assume that it is a Primarch?


40K is full of giants wearing power armour (and we already know that Trazyn has Marines in his collection).

Charistoph
10-02-2014, 21:47
I would also add that just because a Primarch is dead, doesn't mean Trazyn doesn't have him. He may have secured the body and reanimated it just enough to give it a proper life... right before putting him in stasis.

Of course, it could be one of the missing two OR Sigmar. Or one of Fabulous Billie's wannabe Emperor failures.

Theocracity
10-02-2014, 21:50
I would also add that just because a Primarch is dead, doesn't mean Trazyn doesn't have him. He may have secured the body and reanimated it just enough to give it a proper life... right before putting him in stasis.

Of course, it could be one of the missing two OR Sigmar. Or one of Fabulous Billie's wannabe Emperor failures.

The only thing we know for sure is that we don't know for sure who it is ;).

Fangschrecken
10-02-2014, 22:10
The only thing we know for sure is that we don't know for sure who it is ;).

Which naturally points to Omegon...
Alpharius sold his twin out so he could be sole master of the legion.

(the opposite also works)

Fear Ghoul
10-02-2014, 23:48
There's nothing stopping it being either Roboute or Dorn, because Trazyn could have replaced their bodies with very convincing forgeries.

Leman Russ lost his power armour at some point so I don't think it could be him.

Stonerhino
11-02-2014, 07:35
It is the lead Thounder Warrior for The Outcast Dead.

The bearded one
11-02-2014, 07:46
It is the lead Thounder Warrior for The Outcast Dead.

Speculation?

cornonthecob
11-02-2014, 08:48
To be fair that does make a lot of sense, Baroque power armour - check , giant - check, not interfering with 'primarch mystery' - check, important figure in history- check.

Murrithius
11-02-2014, 16:54
Alpharius or Omegon was killed by Guilliman, so it could be one, or the other, or neither, or both, or biscuits....

Inquisitor Engel
11-02-2014, 17:47
There's a possibility it could be Dorn, depending on which version of the Fists' background you're reading.

Bellerophon
11-02-2014, 17:52
It could be a Legio Custode? They were rather massive.

Lothlanathorian
11-02-2014, 18:50
It could be Inquisitor Tyrus because he's a fairly tall bloke and that makes him a "giant of a man."

Bellerophon
11-02-2014, 19:02
It does say 'a man' so one could assume that it would be indeed an Inquisitor, since who other than a Space Marine or some very important Inquisitors wear power armor? In the codex he has many Space Marines, even one mentioned by name, but here it just says 'a man'.

OuroborosTriumphant
11-02-2014, 21:28
I'm not sure that Mk 1 Power Armour of the kind a Thunder Warrior would wear counts as "baroque".

Lothlanathorian
11-02-2014, 22:28
It does say 'a man' so one could assume that it would be indeed an Inquisitor, since who other than a Space Marine or some very important Inquisitors wear power armor? In the codex he has many Space Marines, even one mentioned by name, but here it just says 'a man'.

Exactly. Everyone seems to be focused on "giant" and no one is looking at "a man." A Thunder Warrior would make sense to me. Either way, "baroque" implies someone of import. So, also, a Custode would make some sense, I think.

Of course, given the definition/meaning/style of "baroque", it could just be a tongue-in-cheek joke written into the book implying that Trazyn has a thing for dynamically posing his "toys" (see: we, the gamers, are nerdy collectors with dynamically posed "toys" and, therefore, Trazyn is "one of us"). This would mean that someone worked in a subtle joke which the current generation of Warhams nerds would do their best to take as literally as possible because, gods forbid, someone be a bit cheeky and write something not serious and meant to be taken with some levity.

aim
11-02-2014, 22:50
Of course, given the definition/meaning/style of "baroque", it could just be a tongue-in-cheek joke written into the book implying that Trazyn has a thing for dynamically posing his "toys" (see: we, the gamers, are nerdy collectors with dynamically posed "toys" and, therefore, Trazyn is "one of us"). This would mean that someone worked in a subtle joke which the current generation of Warhams nerds would do their best to take as literally as possible because, gods forbid, someone be a bit cheeky and write something not serious and meant to be taken with some levity.

This.

If not this then as far as I'm concerned, a primarch, yes. Why? Well, look at it from a real world, out of universe point of view. Look at the other things its mentioned with, the legendary Wraithbone Choir, the actual head of Sebastian Thor, its not going to be 'Jim the veteran sergeant'. It is written in such a vague way as to leave it open for us to speculate, but in such a context that it is clearly meant to be someone VERY important. Not 'a custode' or 'a space marine' (especially as its also mentioned in passing that he has a few of those) or 'an inquisitor', someone of import and historical weight, from the description and baring that in mind, that screams 'primarch', or, at a (very) outside chance, Babu from Outcast Dead, although I'm pretty sure the new Necron Codex was written before he existed (could be wrong).

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and its vague enough for all to be equally valid, however I'm fairly certain that it was written in the spirit of being a mystery primarch that we could speculate over. No amount of deduction will work out who it really is, as we all know that its just a line put in there for fun by the writer, and its not actually meant to 'be' someone really in the cannon.

Bellerophon
11-02-2014, 23:14
I don't think it is at all just your run of the mill warrior, but for it to be a primarch just doesn't sit well with me. Maybe if it was described as "ornate" or a similar words, I would be more inclined to think it a Primarch. Trazyn isn't going around and simply collecting Space Marines either. Cassiel was showing a face of fear, and that's a pretty rare thing in the universe. But it's a jump to go from the head of Sebastion Thor, to one of the primarchs.

My vote is still a Custode. Possibly one of the higher ranking. They were important men, they guarded the emperor, and still do. Where a Space Marine is the assembly line model, they were the custom builds. It could easily be a Deathwatch member though, as they are far more likely to have interactions with Trazyn.

Lee-Full_Davis
12-02-2014, 00:24
Could be one of the Primarchs of the unknown legions???

502
12-02-2014, 00:33
Overall I think Custodes also but just to throw some ideas here, it could be a very big/tall Astartes. For example the early Alpha Legionnaires were noted for being tall by Astartes standards and resembling their Primarch(s) so maybe Trazyn assumed it was the Alpha Legion Primarch. Not sure about the armour as I don't think Alpha Legion would have baroque armour unless it suited a specific mission objective.

If we're talking about a Primarch, what about the codex very discreetly implying it could be one of the 2 "forgotten" Legions? (since lately GW likes to throw vague hints at all different directions about those 2 Legions, like the cover of Sigillite)

Btw, I have not read the Outcast Dead, what is the story of the lead Thunder Warrior? Is he the one on the cover (purple armour)?

Inquisitor Engel
12-02-2014, 01:48
Overall I think Custodes also but just to throw some ideas here, it could be a very big/tall Astartes. For example the early Alpha Legionnaires were noted for being tall by Astartes standards and resembling their Primarch(s) so maybe Trazyn assumed it was the Alpha Legion Primarch. Not sure about the armour as I don't think Alpha Legion would have baroque armour unless it suited a specific mission objective.

Alpharius and Omegon were very short for Primarchs - some of their larger marines could stand in for them occasionally, but there were much taller Astartes out there - Alexis Pollux is almost as tall as Guilliman.


If we're talking about a Primarch, what about the codex very discreetly implying it could be one of the 2 "forgotten" Legions? (since lately GW likes to throw vague hints at all different directions about those 2 Legions, like the cover of Sigillite)

Pretty sure it's not implying that.


Btw, I have not read the Outcast Dead, what is the story of the lead Thunder Warrior? Is he the one on the cover (purple armour)?

Lothlanathorian
12-02-2014, 02:22
I'm going to go ahead and say I've decided that, in my 40K, it's one of the Missing Two!! :eek: This is why all records were expunged. One of them just disappeared into a swirling green vortex one morning and was never seen again!!!!


(The other one nicked himself shaving that same morning and subsequently died from blood poisoning.)

Nazguire
12-02-2014, 03:06
Overall I think Custodes also but just to throw some ideas here, it could be a very big/tall Astartes. For example the early Alpha Legionnaires were noted for being tall by Astartes standards and resembling their Primarch(s) so maybe Trazyn assumed it was the Alpha Legion Primarch. Not sure about the armour as I don't think Alpha Legion would have baroque armour unless it suited a specific mission objective.

If we're talking about a Primarch, what about the codex very discreetly implying it could be one of the 2 "forgotten" Legions? (since lately GW likes to throw vague hints at all different directions about those 2 Legions, like the cover of Sigillite)

Btw, I have not read the Outcast Dead, what is the story of the lead Thunder Warrior? Is he the one on the cover (purple armour)?



The guy on the cover of the Outcast Dead is a Space Marine, nothing else. He's just wearing armour scavenged from dead gang members that are pseudo-Thunder Warriors. The main Thunder Warrior in the book is Aruk Tanaris, who was basically the Horus of Thunder Warriors: Emperor's favourite and all that. He's one of the last remaining Thunder Warriors that wasn't killed off by the Emperor prior to creating the Space Marine Legions.

Polaria
12-02-2014, 05:17
(The other one nicked himself shaving that same morning and subsequently died from blood poisoning.)

He was Anti-Vulkan :D

Stonerhino
12-02-2014, 07:54
All of the primarchs share simular looks. Even if slightly different the Inquisitor would have known the Primarchs by look. Maybe not which Primarch but that it is a Primarch. Size would also be a factor.

All in all, there are 20 Primarchs but only one Lightning Bearer (Aruk Tanaris). Also you have to remember that the historians of 30k think Aruk Tanaris' battles are hyperbole. Because they are that unbelievable. Unbelievable comapred to what was going on during the Great Crusade. That's intense.

Lord Damocles
12-02-2014, 17:18
Look at the other things its mentioned with, the legendary Wraithbone Choir, the actual head of Sebastian Thor
...and an Enslaver.

Which aren't all that rare.

Mellow
12-02-2014, 20:00
One of the missing legions was described as "the lost" so that could mean literally.

It's more likely to be Guilliman though. Seeing as Alpharius is actually the one sitting in stasis on Macragge. (/conspiracy)

Provably a Thunder Warrior though. Seems fitting and still important enough.

gitburna
12-02-2014, 22:09
Assuming the criteria of a Primarch was met, i would vote for Vulkan. Since he's supposed to be a perpetual. So if he's in stasis, perhaps that stops him reincarnating?

Nazguire
13-02-2014, 03:05
I hope it's not a Primarchs and is just a regular Joe Blow Space Marine that had a cool hairstyle. Having a Primarch in Trazyn's possession is so many factors of lame I can't even deal.

Seriously, when the writers of the Codexes of late sit down to discuss background to be included, do they simply sit there and circle dance until one of them has these ideas? Not everything has to be some ridiculous mystery conspiracy theory to make each and every single character a special snowflake in a GALAXY's worth of people.

Killgore
14-02-2014, 09:07
I hope it's not a Primarchs and is just a regular Joe Blow Space Marine that had a cool hairstyle. Having a Primarch in Trazyn's possession is so many factors of lame I can't even deal.

Seriously, when the writers of the Codexes of late sit down to discuss background to be included, do they simply sit there and circle dance until one of them has these ideas? Not everything has to be some ridiculous mystery conspiracy theory to make each and every single character a special snowflake in a GALAXY's worth of people.

They would not be special otherwise, got to stand out in a galaxy of trillions.

I say its a thunderwarrior, because they are that cool, no serious historical collector would be without one.

aim
14-02-2014, 11:22
...and an Enslaver.

Which aren't all that rare.

Not that rare. But to the necrons very important. They were the things that caused the necrons to hibernate after all were they not? Or has that been ret-conned now?

New Cult King
14-02-2014, 12:08
Exactly. Everyone seems to be focused on "giant" and no one is looking at "a man." A Thunder Warrior would make sense to me. Either way, "baroque" implies someone of import. So, also, a Custode would make some sense, I think.

Of course, given the definition/meaning/style of "baroque", it could just be a tongue-in-cheek joke written into the book implying that Trazyn has a thing for dynamically posing his "toys" (see: we, the gamers, are nerdy collectors with dynamically posed "toys" and, therefore, Trazyn is "one of us"). This would mean that someone worked in a subtle joke which the current generation of Warhams nerds would do their best to take as literally as possible because, gods forbid, someone be a bit cheeky and write something not serious and meant to be taken with some levity.

Regarding GW and the background of 40K, it is my most sincere wish that that would do not only this, but sprinkle other little goodies throughout their fluff.

Hendarion
14-02-2014, 15:38
Of course, it could be one of the missing two OR Sigmar. Sigmar? Wrong universe.

Horus38
14-02-2014, 16:14
Assuming the criteria of a Primarch was met, i would vote for Vulkan. Since he's supposed to be a perpetual. So if he's in stasis, perhaps that stops him reincarnating?

It's strongly implied that Vulkan has returned to the Eternal Flame casket and is waiting for his sons to find him. Not to say Trazyn hasn't broken him out of it, but seems less likely the angle they're going for.

Not sure if anyone pointed out to the OP that Khan disappeared into the webway after some dark eldar, not the Eye of Terror.

Rufiodies
14-02-2014, 16:50
Vulkan is supposed to be "the gatekeeper" Eldrad's prophecy about a perpetual primarch plugging a warp portal in the proverbial sense, underneath a palatial palace where a primordial prophet promoted a premeditated project of such potency, that it required his progeny, 20 paragons at the precipice of mankind, to pledge oaths of peonage to each his own provenance, and to the predomination of the prophet, such that their passion and partiality would be pruned, with their probity unquestionable

BTJ
14-02-2014, 16:51
A giant of a man in baroque power armour? IMO the best bet for his identity is a Grey Knight. In universe they're rumoured to have the Emperor's geneseed, I can see Trazyn wanting a marine with that in his collection.

Langdon
14-02-2014, 17:23
A giant of a man in baroque power armour? IMO the best bet for his identity is a Grey Knight. In universe they're rumoured to have the Emperor's geneseed, I can see Trazyn wanting a marine with that in his collection.

Custodes are the ones with the supposed Empy's Geneseed.

Grey Knights were created from the loyalists survivors of the traitorous legions at Drop-site Massacre, again supposedly.



Baroque in the context of armour would be similar to what Artificer Armour is; an ornate and ornamental piece.

So as to who it would be?

Any number of Space Marines could fit the bill, also any SM AdMech would fit the description. Perhaps it is also one of the Traitor Legions.. did Lil' Horus die?

Lothlanathorian
14-02-2014, 18:38
Vulkan is supposed to be "the gatekeeper" Eldrad's prophecy about a perpetual primarch plugging a warp portal in the proverbial sense, underneath a palatial palace where a primordial prophet promoted a premeditated project of such potency, that it required his progeny, 20 paragons at the precipice of mankind, to pledge oaths of peonage to each his own provenance, and to the predomination of the prophet, such that their passion and partiality would be pruned, with their probity unquestionable

I think I love you.

Lord Damocles
14-02-2014, 18:57
Not that rare. But to the necrons very important. They were the things that caused the necrons to hibernate after all were they not? Or has that been ret-conned now?
Whether an Enslaver is important to the Necrons (not that Thor's possible head or various Marines/Orks etc. are of all that obvious importance to them) is neither here nor there when arguing for the 'primarch' being a primarch based on the rarity of the other exhibits mentioned alongside it.

Grndhog89
14-02-2014, 19:55
!!
(The other one nicked himself shaving that same morning and subsequently died from blood poisoning.)

Hemophiliac primarchs? Lol.

andyg2006
14-02-2014, 21:29
Admittedly, I've not read everything but, as soon as I saw this, I thought "Lorgar".
Okay, so he's ascended, but he can still get locked in an anti-psyker/daemon freezer.

aim
15-02-2014, 00:53
Whether an Enslaver is important to the Necrons (not that Thor's possible head or various Marines/Orks etc. are of all that obvious importance to them) is neither here nor there when arguing for the 'primarch' being a primarch based on the rarity of the other exhibits mentioned alongside it.

Or, if you read my whole post instead of selectively quoting part you think you can pick at (to disprove something or other? I'm not sure what as I said it was purely my opinion). You'll see that I was talking about things of import. In fact, I even put emphasis on "VERY important". In fact, I mention more than once in the post that the things mentioned are important/of historical significance, and never once mention them being rare, it was you that said they were rare.

Charistoph
15-02-2014, 03:01
Sigmar? Wrong universe.

So? Who knows all the connections the Warp has, even to other universes? No one knows what happened to Sigmar at the end of his reign...

Besides, it was more meant as a joke when the very early 40K was just a nod-nod-wink-wink other aspect of Fantasy.

Hrw-Amen
15-02-2014, 21:05
Does it have to be an Imperial man? During the Great Crusade there were many human worlds that were reclaimed an many of those that were civilised had soldiers that were clad in stuff very similar to power armour as I recall. Probably armour that had been developed from the same originals that actual marine power armour was developed from. Therefore unless it says otherwise it could just as easily be a very smart and intricate suit of power armoured developed by a non imperial human world. I do not recall anything saying when the 'man' was actually acquired after all, or even where from?

Spiney Norman
15-02-2014, 23:04
I'm going to go ahead and say I've decided that, in my 40K, it's one of the Missing Two!! :eek: This is why all records were expunged. One of them just disappeared into a swirling green vortex one morning and was never seen again!!!!


(The other one nicked himself shaving that same morning and subsequently died from blood poisoning.)

I did wonder about the missing two legions?
Do we know anything about those primarchs? Were they ever even found? The fact that the man in Trazyn's gallery is wearing baroque power armour suggests to me that he was at least found by the Imperium at some stage, otherwise how does he come to be wearing power armour? Its not like the regressed, backwater worlds the primarchs got dropped on to had that level of tech.


Does it have to be an Imperial man? During the Great Crusade there were many human worlds that were reclaimed an many of those that were civilised had soldiers that were clad in stuff very similar to power armour as I recall. Probably armour that had been developed from the same originals that actual marine power armour was developed from. Therefore unless it says otherwise it could just as easily be a very smart and intricate suit of power armoured developed by a non imperial human world. I do not recall anything saying when the 'man' was actually acquired after all, or even where from?

I think so, part of the point is that if its in Trazyn's most celebrated collection it is important, its not going to be some random joe from a world no-one's ever heard of. Could it actually be Horus, what happened to his body after the Emperor did him in?

I need to read up about this thunder warrior thing I've never heard anything about them before.

Lothlanathorian
16-02-2014, 00:10
I did wonder about the missing two legions?
Do we know anything about those primarchs? Were they ever even found?

Yes. Read any Space Marine Codex ever published and they will tell you this.

Nazguire
16-02-2014, 11:18
To be special in a galaxy of trillions doesn't mean you need to be central to every conspiracy theory that the universe can conspire. That's just lazy writing.

The bearded one
17-02-2014, 07:26
You know who this mystery frozen marine/primarch is?

The personified ability of writers to troll their audience via mysteries, that's who.


The easiest way to make something seem incredibly exciting, is for it to be a big unanswered mystery. The two missing primarchs, the specifics of the dark age of technology, the final fate of many of the loyalist primarchs, the specifics of the horus heresy (which are being filled in now), andsoforth. Mystery is exciting, and you fill the gap with curiosity and relatively non-specific answers. There's the infinite potential afforded by it, and with a lot of the larger things (the missing primarchs for instance) no real story would be able to actually match up to the power of the mystery, no matter how good it might be.

Nazrax
17-02-2014, 22:43
You know who this mystery frozen marine/primarch is?

The personified ability of writers to troll their audience via mysteries, that's who.


The easiest way to make something seem incredibly exciting, is for it to be a big unanswered mystery. The two missing primarchs, the specifics of the dark age of technology, the final fate of many of the loyalist primarchs, the specifics of the horus heresy (which are being filled in now), andsoforth. Mystery is exciting, and you fill the gap with curiosity and relatively non-specific answers. There's the infinite potential afforded by it, and with a lot of the larger things (the missing primarchs for instance) no real story would be able to actually match up to the power of the mystery, no matter how good it might be.


This, very much this. Who cares who it really is when the mystery is so much more exciting? What does it matter who it is when speculation is so much more fun?

I like to think it is someone fairly important, maybe a legendary chapter master, a lost primarch, an ancient captain of the Custodes, etc. etc. However I think that perhaps the true identity is lost to the ages.

Trazyn might know, he might not. He decides who it is to suit his whim and for that moment that is who the mystery man is. Perhaps Trazyn wanted his "guests" to wonder about the identity of the man in baroque power armor. Maybe he isn't even real but just a hologram to create conversation, confusion and envy.

He may be a figment of trazyn's imagination made real by the fantastic technologies of the Necrons in an attempt to please Trazyn's bizarre and eclectic tastes...see? The imagination is far, far more fun than truth...

Langdon
17-02-2014, 23:23
Considering's Trazyn's knack of body switching.. maybe he has the original Bile on tap?

After all, if anyone is to know how to reanimate the dead, create super-soldiers and escape death, is good ole Fabulous Bile

Lothlanathorian
18-02-2014, 02:23
It's probably just a really tall Guardsmen and Trazyn had an empty suit of super pretty power armor and was like, "Screw it, e'll fit."

BTJ
18-02-2014, 14:07
Custodes are the ones with the supposed Empy's Geneseed.

Grey Knights were created from the loyalists survivors of the traitorous legions at Drop-site Massacre, again supposedly.

I guess you meant Istvaan 3? Istvaan 5 was the dropsite massacre. And before the Heresy was as detailed as it is now, the leading theory for the Grey Knights Geneseed was it was from the Emperor, which IIRC is stated in universe to be the leading theory in their current codex too.

Slayer-Fan123
18-02-2014, 18:51
It's probably just a really tall Guardsmen and Trazyn had an empty suit of super pretty power armor and was like, "Screw it, e'll fit."
I really like this.

Brother Vaneb
18-02-2014, 19:16
I did wonder about the missing two legions?
Do we know anything about those primarchs? Were they ever even found? The fact that the man in Trazyn's gallery is wearing baroque power armour suggests to me that he was at least found by the Imperium at some stage, otherwise how does he come to be wearing power armour? Its not like the regressed, backwater worlds the primarchs got dropped on to had that level of tech.



I think so, part of the point is that if its in Trazyn's most celebrated collection it is important, its not going to be some random joe from a world no-one's ever heard of. Could it actually be Horus, what happened to his body after the Emperor did him in?

I need to read up about this thunder warrior thing I've never heard anything about them before.

The body was in my memory taken by Fabius Bile who tried to clone him etc. Abaddon led an assault on the facility retrieved the body and destroyed it so it couldn't be cloned. And the legion could move on on from being Sons of Horus renaming themselves the Black Legion.

Nkari
18-02-2014, 22:58
*coughs* there are 2 missing legions, and if one legion became infected with enslavers.. well.. thats a quite good reason to exterminate them and remove all records of spacemarines being that weak.. =)

Lothlanathorian
19-02-2014, 01:14
The body was in my memory taken by Fabius Bile who tried to clone him etc. Abaddon led an assault on the facility retrieved the body and destroyed it so it couldn't be cloned. And the legion could move on on from being Sons of Horus renaming themselves the Black Legion.

The Sons still had the body on the battle barge after his defeat when they fled to the EoT. There was a lot of Legion v Legion action in the eye and, at some point, I think they (still mostly sane) EC got the body, Fabulous Bill made some failclones (because *******' Primarch DNA), the Sons stormed the facility, razed it and destroyed the clones and the original body then renamed themselves the Black Legion.

just_jay
20-02-2014, 12:46
It's Alpharius and this a part of an insidious, multi-level, thousand year, needlessly complex ambush. Even in stasis Alpharius has Trazyn right where he wants him, he fell into a carefully woven web of deceit that will no doubt end in someone saying "I am Alpharius."

cornonthecob
21-02-2014, 07:47
To be special in a galaxy of trillions doesn't mean you need to be central to every conspiracy theory that the universe can conspire. That's just lazy writing.
....It was written by Ward. AKA : Lazy Writing 101.

Rufiodies
21-02-2014, 12:41
"I am Alpharius" reminds me of game of thrones, when they mutter "For the Watch" while stabbing dude.

OuroborosTriumphant
21-02-2014, 12:53
There is a bit about this in White Dwarf Weekly issue 4 (that is, the issue whose street date is tomorrow). It talks about the White Dwarf staff speculation on this topic. Adam Troke (the WD Senior Staff Writer) thinks it's Vulkan. Jes Bickham (the WD editor) disagrees. Not much else beyond that, but it's data for the data god (Theories for the Theory Throne!).

Camman1984
21-02-2014, 15:08
Does it have to be an Imperial man? During the Great Crusade there were many human worlds that were reclaimed an many of those that were civilised had soldiers that were clad in stuff very similar to power armour as I recall. Probably armour that had been developed from the same originals that actual marine power armour was developed from. Therefore unless it says otherwise it could just as easily be a very smart and intricate suit of power armoured developed by a non imperial human world. I do not recall anything saying when the 'man' was actually acquired after all, or even where from?

One of the first acts of the emperor when he came across any human worlds also making anything similar to space marines, was to have them issued with a cease and desist order. This would make their designs very hard to come by, although i guess trazyn could have got hold of one in some kind pan-galactic auction system?

TheFang
21-02-2014, 16:47
One of the first acts of the emperor when he came across any human worlds also making anything similar to space marines, was to have them issued with a cease and desist order.
Just like GW and competitors. :)



That leaves us with 5 possibilities
1. Corvus Corax (lost in the Eye of Terror?)
2. Jaghatai Khan (lost in the warp?)
3. Leman Russ (lost in the Eye of Terror?)
4. Vulkan (missing?)
5. Alpharius Omegon (?)


Baroque implies richly and over decorated ostentation which would leave most of those out as far too practical to have a suit like that.

As for the origins of the Grey Knights they would seem to come from the loyal legionnaires gathered by Garro who had psychic powers. See several threads like this (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?390017-Was-Garro-the-first-supreme-grandmaster-of-the-Gray-Knights). Pandorax would imply the founders had their Geneseed replaced with the Emperor's. Where that leaves the modern Grey Knights is still AFAIK open to speculation but I'd guess they're using that derived from the Emperor.

Grand Master Azrael
21-02-2014, 21:06
I reckon it isn't a Primarch. They're just too damn important.

Sanai
21-02-2014, 23:31
I reckon Necron's don't actually exist and that they were all made up by an inquisitor because he was jealous of Inquisitor Kryptmann and his reputation for being the guy who warned the galaxy about tyranids.

Lothlanathorian
22-02-2014, 02:17
I reckon Necron's don't actually exist and that they were all made up by an inquisitor because he was jealous of Inquisitor Kryptmann and his reputation for being the guy who warned the galaxy about tyranids.

Best theory I've read/heard in 17 years.

Haskear
25-02-2014, 21:33
Alpharius or Omegon was killed by Guilliman, so it could be one, or the other, or neither, or both, or biscuits....

Most likely Omegon and Alpharius are still alive and up to something. I recon Guilleman killed an ultramarine brainwashed into thinking he was a Alpharius who in turn tricked Guilleman into thinking he had killed Omegon. But it was probably more complicated than that, indeed the hole battle probably never happened

Haskear
25-02-2014, 21:36
In seriousness I think it's the thunder warrior from flight of the Eisenstein.

Sanai
27-02-2014, 16:06
Clearly it has to be Alpharius or Omegon, because there never where any other Primarchs- Alpharius & Omegon in their machinations outsmarted themselves by impersonating primarchs to the point where they actually believed that the Horus Heresy was real when in fact it was just a massive battle between various Alpha Legion battlegroups disguised as fictional Legions.

Lupe
27-02-2014, 17:26
It's probably just a really tall Guardsmen and Trazyn had an empty suit of super pretty power armor and was like, "Screw it, e'll fit."

Silly as this may be, it still makes a lot more sense than any of the conspiracy theories about primarchs, thunder warriors, custodes, grey knights or inquisitors.

Old Trazy isn't super concerned with authenticity, remember? After all, he's using the Inquisitor's stormtroopers as replacements for some of the missing specimens in his collection, for crying out loud. Plus, even if he was interested in authenticity and historical accuracy, he's not THAT well versed in human mythos to tell for certain. Plus, for all we know, all humans could look the same to him...

RanaldLoec
27-02-2014, 20:11
P. 58 of the Necron Codex (5th Ed)

"The sunken chambers are crowned with artefacts of all forms: the fabled wraith bone choir of Altansar, the preserved head of Sebastian Thor, the ossified husk of an Enslaver and a giant of a man clad in baroque power armour."

Assuming that this 'giant of a man' is indeed a space marine primarch, which one would/could it be?

A good starting point would be to rule out those we know it definitely isn't (by virtue of them being somewhere else)
1. Roboute Guilliman (Temple of Correction, Macragge)
2. Lion El'Jonson (Secret chamber within The Rock)
3. Horus (dead)
4. Sanguinius (dead)
5. Ferrus Manus (dead)
6. Rogal Dorn (dead)
7. Konrad Curze (dead)
8. Fulgrim (Ascended)
9. Angron (Ascended)
10. Mortarion (Ascended)
11. Magnus (Ascended)
12. Lorgar (Ascended)
13. Perturabo (Ascended)

That leaves us with 5 possibilities
1. Corvus Corax (lost in the Eye of Terror?)
2. Jaghatai Khan (lost in the warp?)
3. Leman Russ (lost in the Eye of Terror?)
4. Vulkan (missing?)
5. Alpharius Omegon (?)

Of the 5 I probably favour Vulkan, Necrons aren't known for their expeditions into the warp, but its entirely possible that Corax, Khan or Russ dropped out of the warp and found Trazyn waiting for them, personally I think Alpharius (if he is still alive) is probably too canny to have trazyn pull the wool over his eyes.

The Imperial Fists only ever recovered Rogal Dorns fist. The rest of his body was never found.

So Killed in action could very well be Missing in action?

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

Lord Damocles
27-02-2014, 21:32
The Imperial Fists only ever recovered Rogal Dorns fist. The rest of his body was never found.
Unless there's been a recent retcon, this is incorrect (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?355886-So-Dorn-is-dead).

RanaldLoec
27-02-2014, 22:23
Unless there's been a recent retcon, this is incorrect (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?355886-So-Dorn-is-dead).

I was working from memory something I read in the new SM codex I could very easily be wrong.

Everto
28-02-2014, 09:25
What about Ferrus Manus, it doesn't mention anything about him having a head ;)

Inquisitor Engel
28-02-2014, 13:52
Unless there's been a recent retcon, this is incorrect (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?355886-So-Dorn-is-dead).

I don't have a copy of Sentinels of Terra - perhaps that finally put it to rest? I remember it going back and forth between the whole body and just the hand for a few editions.

Atia
01-03-2014, 13:49
still vote for vulkan, as i remember that trazyn tried to get his spear from vulkan he'stan (it's like he would finished his salamanders collection :P)

Harwammer
01-03-2014, 20:43
I reckon Trazyn has some 21st century geek that was cos-playing as The Emperor for Halloween.

Marked_by_chaos
01-03-2014, 23:26
Why rule out Horus? His corpse and armour survived the battle with the emperor and Necrons can manipulate time/space etc anyway.

Trayzin is essentially a historical collector. He has Sebastian Thor's head for example. There is no one of greater historical relevance for humanity than the emperor ... Wait a minute no wonder the golden throne is failing!

In all seriousness though anyone's guess is valid. Just one of the better written hooks IMHO in recent GW material. There should never be an answer given as with the redacted legions.

Atia
02-03-2014, 07:28
Why rule out Horus?
Emperors Childrens stole Horus corpse and do a clone of him, abaddon kills horus.2.0

laudarkul
02-03-2014, 09:20
Vulkan...See the frequent clashes between Salamanders and Trazyn....

Marked_by_chaos
02-03-2014, 11:15
Emperors Childrens stole Horus corpse and do a clone of him, abaddon kills horus.2.0

Was it the real corpse? Did Trayzn take it from the emperors children? Did Abaddon kill the "only" clone?

The background is always ambiguous at its best. The background is also frequently propaganda for one army or another.

Mellow
02-03-2014, 13:12
They definitely stole Horus' corpse and cloned him and it's stated that they then stole the clone(s) and destroyed them.

Didn't want to live with the clone of a failure or something.

Lord Damocles
02-03-2014, 14:06
I don't have a copy of Sentinels of Terra - perhaps that finally put it to rest? I remember it going back and forth between the whole body and just the hand for a few editions.
The idea that the Imperial Fists only had Dorn's hands was/is based entirely on repeated miss-readings/miss-rememberings of the Index Astartes article, which didn't say that at all.

Otherwise the background has been consistent (or at least, unmentioned) since Ian Watson's Space Marine. Sentinels of Terra doesn't mention Dorn's remains one way or the other as far as I can see.

Inquisitor Engel
06-03-2014, 19:19
Sentinels of Terra doesn't mention Dorn's remains one way or the other as far as I can see.

Kind of a disappointment and a missed opportunity, to be honest.