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nightstorm
12-02-2014, 15:17
Just have MR have different meanings to modify the roll for test by spells.

For instance purple sun needs and initiative test. If you have Ini 1 then normally you would need to roll a 1 on the D6 to pass the test. If you have MR2 this would mean you could roll a 1 2 or 3 to pass.
For Hexes have MR add to the dispel dice so you throw 3 dice and with MR2 it would be 3D6 +2
For Damage it would remain as it is.

Although i'm sure this would be deemed too complex for some

Zaonite
12-02-2014, 16:02
One thing I like about this little change is it kind of gets round the "no saves of any kind" thingy in which your units just dies. With this it will stem that a little. In recent years though the games have been streamlined...

Very good suggestion though. Would love to test this as a house rule.

Archon of Death
12-02-2014, 16:07
Or potentially the MR could confer a Magic Resistance Save against such spells that would otherwise ignore Ward Saves. Kind of like a clause in Magic Resistance where regardless of if saves are allowed against a spell, Magic Resistance will always be allowed.

Nerd Knight
12-02-2014, 16:14
Completely concur with Nightstorm's idea here. Would also be great if it worked against miscasts much like the banner of the world dragon currently does.

Blinder
12-02-2014, 16:26
No, I think that's somewhat straightforward, but I don't know that it would play out terribly well in practice- While I don't agree that PSun/etc. are the only thing keeping deathstars in check, I think having MR modify the stat would be incredibly effective at protecting such units unless you were already "capped" (Elves vs. PSun), in which case it goes and makes things like dropping Miasma on them irrelevant. Having it provide a "save" would probably work out better (it still does something, just not quite as much as the stat mod, and isn't "variably valuable"). Then you continue and fix the "or die" spells to not suck so much fun out of the game in the first place.

For hexes I'd worry an additional source of +dispel would further cement the "requirement" of an L4, especially as having the L4 in the target unit means an L2 is now 4 points in the hole in many (all?) cases without any points spent on MR specifically. If the system changed so that *only* the target unit's MR were added to dispel attempts (and either the caster's MR rather than level, or even so far as only special items/rules, added to casting attempts) for all spells, on the other hand... (vortexes and similar using the best MR of any unit it might run into?)

Basically... I agree MR needs to change, but I think it would have to be done a bit conservatively so we don't go from "LOLDwellers" to "LOLResistance."

badguyshaveallthefun
12-02-2014, 16:33
I think that MR should also factor into augments as well; It makes no sense that MR, something that in inherently indiscriminate, ONLY works against hostile magic, it should work against ALL magic, that way you have to think twice about whether or not the benefits outweigh the consequences.

MasterSplinter
12-02-2014, 16:34
I think the idea Archon has posted is a very good solution. Just apply the ward save even against spells which would otherwise ignore it. For example a model with a 5++ natural save and mr 2 would get his 3++ against normal spells and a 5++ against all that ignore wardsaves.

MasterSplinter
12-02-2014, 16:35
I think that MR should also factor into augments as well; It makes no sense that MR, something that in inherently indiscriminate, ONLY works against hostile magic, it should work against ALL magic, that way you have to think twice about whether or not the benefits outweigh the consequences.

Thats right, one should focus on that too.

theunwantedbeing
12-02-2014, 16:37
Although i'm sure this would be deemed too complex for some

That would be because it's not the simplest option, plus it provides a different benefit based on the spell type.
Ideally the solution is consistent and simple.

The simplest opinion would be to roll 1 dice based on the magical resistance you have.
Roll equal to or under the amount of magical resistance you have and the spell effect would be ignored for that unit.

A less simple option would be to grant a number of additional dispel dice against any spell cast at you, just like last edition.
MR(1) is one extra dice, MR(3) is 3 extra dice.
So simple, it makes you wonder why it was dropped in favour of the crud we have now.

badguyshaveallthefun
12-02-2014, 16:43
A less simple option would be to grant a number of additional dispel dice against any spell cast at you, just like last edition.
MR(1) is one extra dice, MR(3) is 3 extra dice.
So simple, it makes you wonder why it was dropped in favour of the crud we have now.

I too wish that we would go back to this system. I liked it far better than the one we have now.

Maybe allow your opponents to throw extra dispel dice for free if you're trying to cast an augment on one of your own units with MR to take into account that MR should work against EVERYTHING.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
12-02-2014, 16:45
I always thought making it a stand-alone ward save against spell Effects would be sufficient to justify it's cost. So in the case of Dwellers or other equivalents, before the stat test is taken, the ward save is taken first.

dementian
12-02-2014, 17:12
That would be because it's not the simplest option, plus it provides a different benefit based on the spell type.
Ideally the solution is consistent and simple.

The simplest opinion would be to roll 1 dice based on the magical resistance you have.
Roll equal to or under the amount of magical resistance you have and the spell effect would be ignored for that unit.

A less simple option would be to grant a number of additional dispel dice against any spell cast at you, just like last edition.
MR(1) is one extra dice, MR(3) is 3 extra dice.
So simple, it makes you wonder why it was dropped in favour of the crud we have now.

What I like about this is it would also harm augments on the unit.

If you are good at stopping magic missiles/big spells/and hexes you should also be resistant to getting buffed from your own wizards.

I'd be for this!

Urgat
12-02-2014, 17:28
I think that MR should also factor into augments as well; It makes no sense that MR, something that in inherently indiscriminate, ONLY works against hostile magic, it should work against ALL magic, that way you have to think twice about whether or not the benefits outweigh the consequences.
Iirc it used to. MR should just be a kind of ward imho, just it affects everything. Got MR5? Then on a 5+ you ignore the spell, be it damage, curse, buff, whatever.


A less simple option would be to grant a number of additional dispel dice against any spell cast at you, just like last edition.
MR(1) is one extra dice, MR(3) is 3 extra dice.
So simple, it makes you wonder why it was dropped in favour of the crud we have now.
Iirc, it led to plenty of arguments, like your opponent casts burning head, and you wanna use your MR, but no! says the opponent, I did not target the unit, I merely cast its way. It was funny with warpath... first you cast on unit A, the one that doesn't have MR. Now you can happily jump on unit B. It has MR? Who cares? The spell has been cast already.

SteveW
12-02-2014, 17:33
Just have MR have different meanings to modify the roll for test by spells.

For instance purple sun needs and initiative test. If you have Ini 1 then normally you would need to roll a 1 on the D6 to pass the test. If you have MR2 this would mean you could roll a 1 2 or 3 to pass.
For Hexes have MR add to the dispel dice so you throw 3 dice and with MR2 it would be 3D6 +2
For Damage it would remain as it is.

Although i'm sure this would be deemed too complex for some

This might be the best suggestion I've heard regarding the kill spells. I'm going to see if I can get someone to playtest this with me this weekend.

Sexiest_hero
12-02-2014, 20:20
My Ogre playing buddy would love this fix. I've have no choice but to deal with his ogres in combat. And by deal I mean get my tomb kings' bones powdered.

Sexiest_hero
12-02-2014, 20:20
My Ogre playing buddy would love this fix. I've have no choice but to deal with his ogres in combat. And by deal I mean get my tomb kings' bones powdered.

shakedown47
13-02-2014, 05:19
MR should just go back to how it used to be, adding dice to dispel attempts on behalf of the targeted unit. The few spells that get around it, such as burning head or a bouncing foot of gork, are enough of a corner-case that they don't in and of themselves break the system. I would also argue that, the way that MR has been priced in this edition, it could add dispel die AND confer a non-stacking ward save against magical attacks and still feel about right, power wise.

Lord Solar Plexus
13-02-2014, 07:59
Did you read Urgat's post? The 7th edition rule didn't work, people. There were too many ways around it.

Nothing's easier than a ward.

Spiney Norman
13-02-2014, 08:38
Or potentially the MR could confer a Magic Resistance Save against such spells that would otherwise ignore Ward Saves. Kind of like a clause in Magic Resistance where regardless of if saves are allowed against a spell, Magic Resistance will always be allowed.

This is actually a good idea, it could work similar to 'deny the witch' in 40k where you roll a dice for the unit targeted by a successfully cast spell and ignore the effect on a 6 (MR1), 5+ (MR2) or 4+ (MR3).

I think having MR work differently for different spell effects is possibly the worst idea I have heard for it, you have to pretty much add the mr effect to every spell description in the game, because the point is, they all work differently.

N1AK
13-02-2014, 09:23
Iirc it used to. MR should just be a kind of ward imho, just it affects everything. Got MR5? Then on a 5+ you ignore the spell, be it damage, curse, buff, whatever.


This is definitely how I would like to see it work. It could be as simple as before applying the effect of a spell against a unit with MR test and if it is passed the effect is ignored. That would give the unit protection against hexes, spells without specific targets etc but also make it harder to buff them.

A ward save is, as LSP points out, the simplest option but it seems like a poor game mechanic that being resistant to magic means you're less likely to be hurt by a fireball but just as likely to have your toughness sapped or have your strength augmented by magic (wildform etc) as someone who isn't resistant to magic.

sninsch
13-02-2014, 09:34
I would like MR geting a extra rule something like a negative modifier to all spells which were cast on the unit. So it's harder to get a spell on the unit.

theunwantedbeing
13-02-2014, 09:54
MR should just go back to how it used to be, adding dice to dispel attempts on behalf of the targeted unit. The few spells that get around it, such as burning head or a bouncing foot of gork, are enough of a corner-case that they don't in and of themselves break the system.

You can even get around most of those few spells by making sure that magical resistance triggers on simply being effected by a spell, rather than needing to be targeted.
Units with Magical resistance that become secondary targets can still add their dice total to the initial attempt and stop it when it effects them if necessary.

Everything stays nice and simple, and magical resistance goes back to actually being able to resist magic.

Voss
13-02-2014, 10:54
Did you read Urgat's post? The 7th edition rule didn't work, people. There were too many ways around it.

Nothing's easier than a ward.

True, but the current version affects none of the spells that matter (which are not just the big 6 spells of doom). MR should also have an impact on buffs and debuffs, not just wounds.

Urgat
13-02-2014, 11:42
This is definitely how I would like to see it work. It could be as simple as before applying the effect of a spell against a unit with MR test and if it is passed the effect is ignored. That would give the unit protection against hexes, spells without specific targets etc but also make it harder to buff them.

It would also protect just the unit benefiting from MR if it's a spell that targets multiple units, and not just cancel the spell altogether.

Dorack
13-02-2014, 12:35
How about for each point in MR, spell dificulty is increased by a D6? Both beneficial and detrimental spells.

Urgat
13-02-2014, 22:08
Not very logical fluff-wise, and it still doesn't address spells that don't specifically target them. Either those spells ignore MR altogether which is unfair, or MR works for every unit affected, even those that don't have it, which isn't any better. A special ward save against any spell effects (the spell still goes off, it still works, it just doesn't affect those that pass their MR test), on a model basis (because you can have a MR character in a non-MR unit or vice-versa), is both simple and more accurate. I don't get why people don't like it.


True, but the current version affects none of the spells that matter (which are not just the big 6 spells of doom). MR should also have an impact on buffs and debuffs, not just wounds.

I totally agree. Stone trolls should be able to shrug off curses easily, but should be very hard to buff, for instance.

Liability
13-02-2014, 22:27
There is an issue here in that adding dispel dice when your magic resistant unit is targeted by a spell has little to no impact to uber-spells which are as often as not cast with irresistible force.

A double 6 on dispel would have to be made to trump a double 6 to cast.

Skywave
14-02-2014, 07:51
Just add the MR value to the casting score required to cast a spell that target the unit. So you cast a magic missile or an hex (or even an augment if you want the unit to resist friendly spells too) on the unit that is 10+ to cast, if the target have MR(2) then that spell now require 12+.

That is on top of the current ward bonus, and I like the idea of keeping the MR ward for insta-kill spell too.

Lord Dan
14-02-2014, 08:17
There is an issue here in that adding dispel dice when your magic resistant unit is targeted by a spell has little to no impact to uber-spells which are as often as not cast with irresistible force.

A double 6 on dispel would have to be made to trump a double 6 to cast.

That's a really good point I hadn't considered. It also doesn't address Urgat's concern about "indirect" spells which don't necessarily target the unit.

theunwantedbeing
14-02-2014, 11:21
That's a really good point I hadn't considered. It also doesn't address Urgat's concern about "indirect" spells which don't necessarily target the unit.

There's only a roughly 20% chance of getting a double 6 on 6 dice.
I got that number by working out the odds of getting any single combination of two 6's (625/46656)
and multiplied that by the number of ways to get those two 6's (15 ways)
which gave me 9375/46656, or roughly 20%.

In anycase, you solve the "indirect" issue by having magical resistance trigger based on what the spell effects rather than what the spell targets.
eg.
Burning head doesn't target something?
Well if it would hit it, you roll the magical resistance and if it's enough to stop the spell then the spell stops when it would make contact.

Foot of Gork stomps a second unit but this one has magical resistance?
Add the score of the magical resistance roll to the dispel attempt, if it goes above the roll to cast the spell then the spell stops.

It's a very easy solution to make using MR as dispel dice work.

Urgat
14-02-2014, 11:40
But it doesn't make sense. MR makes you resist magic, it shouldn't just stop the spell. Why would foot of gork be dispelled when the spell's been cast already? The MR unit should resist the spell - or its effects, not just cancel it altogether. It's in the name, they're resistant to magic, they don't make the spell vanish or dispell it. If you cast a meteor on the battlefield, even if the MR unit laughs it off, the nearby units shouldn't. Even though I usually don't like them, that's exactly the kind of occurences when trully strong wards make sense. I feel we want to take MR from not useful to too powerful there.

T10
14-02-2014, 11:43
What I feel is missing is for the spell descriptions to include rules for how their effects are affected by Magic Resistance. For brevity, this could be a part of the spell type description.

Unfortunately, it seems that they forgot about Magic Resistance until a few minutes before the rules went to print and figured "Modify Ward saves? Good enough!"

Nkari
14-02-2014, 16:44
Just let MR add its value to the dispell roll.. ie, a lvl 4 wizard dispelling somehting cast on a unit with MR2 would add +6 to his roll instead of +4..

T10
14-02-2014, 17:37
Why double the value? Why not change all MR values instead?

shakedown47
14-02-2014, 20:41
What if MR worked in a similar fashion to 40k's "Deny the Witch" roll? If you roll equal to or under the unit's MR level, that unit is unaffected by the spell.

Key word being unaffected, meaning whether they were the target of a spell or not. If Cacophonic Choir hits a unit of cauldron elves, a unit of corsairs, and a chariot, the witch elves can ignore the spell's effect completely on a roll of 1, while the corsairs and chariot suffer the spell's effect regardless.

In other words, true "magic resistance," but at best a 50% chance to resist anything at all, be it a Fireball or Dweller's Below.

Edit: Discussing this with a friend just now, who was unaware of the Deny the Witch rule, he suggested that a level of MR give you a single die to roll, hoping for a 6. MR(2) would give two dice, MR(3) three dice, etc.

Urgat
15-02-2014, 14:03
That's fine too, pretty much like a ward, and no need to change the MR profile of the unit to boot.

Zark the Damned
17-02-2014, 13:59
Some very simple MR fixes:

1) Keep as-is when boosting Ward Saves versus hits caused by magic. This works fine.
2) When a Hex is cast at a unit with MR, it gets a special 'resistance' save versus the spell. MR1 = 6+, MR2 = 5+ and so on. If passed you ignore the Hex's effects on that unit (the spell is not dispelled, so if a hex targets multiple units it will still affect the others)
3) Apply the same resistance save versus anything which kills outright without a save (Purple Sun, Dwellers Below, Pit of Shades, etc.) - in this case it is a per-model roll for any that fail their stat test.

Possibly it should also affect Augments in the same way as Hexes but in this case it'd need a significant points drop.

EDIT: Oops, didn't notice this thread had already gotten to two pages, the above idea's probably already been brought up by someone.