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Still Standing
12-02-2014, 22:12
On occassion (regularly) two people in different locations around the planet come up with the same idea. For example Wraithknights and Wave Serpents are strong, or Riptides are strong. Why is it the first response of most people is to assume netlist and throw accusations around. Rather than discuss a list a person is trying to develop, they will simply throw derision in their general direction. How is that helpful?

Ssilmath
12-02-2014, 22:18
I'm really curious as to what triggered this question. Without knowing the situation, it's kind of hard to discuss this.

As a stab at it though, it depends quite a lot on the timing of the people. If two people come up with a similar list at about the same time, then it is simply an indication that particular list is strong and/or obvious. But if somebody comes up with a list 2 months after the book has dropped, is filled with spammy elements and 'coincidentally' looks a lot like the list that recently won or placed well in a tourney, you're likely to get accused to netlisting and not being able to come up with something on your own. Even if it's not always the case, what looks like a duck and quacks like a duck is most often a duck.

Still Standing
12-02-2014, 22:32
I posted this list on facebook:

Spiritseer w/ Spiritstone of Anath'Ian
Wraithguard w/ D-Scythes in Serpent w/ Dual Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannon, Holofields
10 Guardians w/ Bright Lance in Serpent w/ Dual Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannon, Holofields
10 Guardians w/ Bright Lance in Serpent w/ Dual Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannon, Holofields
Wraithknight w/ Suncannon, Scatter Laser (Warlord)
Wraithknight

Which is very similar to a list I've been using since day 1 of this new book coming out.

Instead of getting comments on the list itself, all I had was flak for apparent netlisting. It got me thinking about a guy in our local GW who has started playing a 3 Riptide list. Everybody has begun calling him a netlister as an accusation. Maybe people really do read a book and see good combinations without the aid of the internet.

Theocracity
12-02-2014, 22:36
I think 'netlisting' gets thrown around a lot as a catch-all term for lists that maximize on powerful, meta-effective units (that is, ones that hit the sweet spot of rolling enough dice to minimize statistics, being effective against the broadest range of potential opposition, resilient enough to not rely on non-statistical factors for survival, and cost effective).

The problem is that some of these are actual netlists (that is, copied from someone else's idea) and some are independently created. I don't think its entirely fair to label any popular list a 'netlist,' but since it's hard to draw intention from a list of units people will often come to their own conclusions.

My advice is that if your independently created list gets called a netlist, then assess the tone. If its a factual declaration, then pat yourself on the back for independently coming to the conclusion. If it's in a derogatory fashion, then follow the dictum of 'haters gonna hate.'

I think you should always be open to tweaking your list to fit fun, non-standard or less efficient choices though. Not all games are played under tournament conditions, so you don't necessarily have to check all those boxes.

Edit: People will also throw around 'netlist' if they see units they know are powerful, even if they don't understand how that unit works in the full list. In your case it's wave serpents and the wraithknight. I'm not sure how closely your list matches the actual tourney netlists, but it doesn't seem bad to me.

Still Standing
12-02-2014, 22:39
I have Sisters of Battle and Thousand Sons for more friendly matchups!

Ssilmath
12-02-2014, 22:43
I think you're being a bit oversensitive, especially because your list looks a lot like a net list. As you say, it's been your list from day 1 and is very fluffy, but that doesn't mean it doesn't look a lot like some of the more popular internet lists. But that's inevitable, the more powerful lists tend to get posted a lot on the internet.

I say just let it roll off your back, realize that if people don't have the whole picture then they can only make judgments on what they see and ignore anybody who gives you crap about net listing.

IcedCrow
12-02-2014, 22:51
"netlisting" is synonymous with "powergaming". It doesn't in my eyes mean that you copied the list off of the internet. It means you are good at rudimentary math and figured out what the best items were and decided to take as many as you could fit in.

Though I'm sure that there are also a lot of people that dont think and will assume you just copied the list as well.

Theocracity
12-02-2014, 23:16
I have Sisters of Battle and Thousand Sons for more friendly matchups!

You deserve a nice power list to throw down with :). Like the others said, just treat 'net' as a synonym for 'power,' brush the proverbial dirt off your shoulders and have fun in the big leagues.

Camman1984
13-02-2014, 10:35
Sticks and stones stones may break my bones but my d-scythes gonna kill you!

mostlyharmless
13-02-2014, 21:45
I don't usually read netlists or what people use to win tournaments, because I largely don't care. So, more often then not, I wouldn't recognize a netlist if it looked at me cross-eyed. There was, however, the hilarious occasion where I did play against a netlist using net-tactics. He even credited some guy on youtube for the brilliant tactic of taking a scout sqaud in a landspeeder storm with multi-melta and giving the sergeant a combi-melta, confident that he would destroy both of my Black Templar Land Raider Crusaders. He failed to get any penetrating hits, and the return salvo from my land raiders wiped the landspeeder and the scouts off the map. It kinda went down hill from there, and I explained to him that using a strategy that someone else came up with is never fool proof. Yeah, sure, you might get lucky and pop a land raider, but the templars inside are angry SOBs, and I would end up with two kill points to his one. He learned not to rely on long shots and to always hedge his bets.

Paint it Red
22-02-2014, 03:08
I don't usually read netlists or what people use to win tournaments, because I largely don't care. So, more often then not, I wouldn't recognize a netlist if it looked at me cross-eyed. There was, however, the hilarious occasion where I did play against a netlist using net-tactics. He even credited some guy on youtube for the brilliant tactic of taking a scout sqaud in a landspeeder storm with multi-melta and giving the sergeant a combi-melta, confident that he would destroy both of my Black Templar Land Raider Crusaders. He failed to get any penetrating hits, and the return salvo from my land raiders wiped the landspeeder and the scouts off the map. It kinda went down hill from there, and I explained to him that using a strategy that someone else came up with is never fool proof. Yeah, sure, you might get lucky and pop a land raider, but the templars inside are angry SOBs, and I would end up with two kill points to his one. He learned not to rely on long shots and to always hedge his bets.

Not all netlists or advice on the net is good. If you use suicide melta weapons it needs to be cheap, effective and require a backup plan. Scouts in a speeder are non of these. A normal landspeeder with 2 multimeltas is twice as good, and is only 1 unit!

AmBlam
23-02-2014, 10:14
How is that helpful?

Why should it be?

People just don't want to play against your list and same with the 3* riptides.

Sir Didymus
23-02-2014, 11:09
Noone cares if you lift your list from the net, or have the brilliance to recognize the obvious power choices in a book on your own. But making a list of the most obvious choices, doesn't merit any other comments beyond a pat on the head, as what else is left to say.

If you on the other hand made an unconventional list - like a Tau Stealth suit army, and explained your infallible tactics in using it to win tournaments, you just might get some praise and recognition. That is untill your list becomes the netlist du jour.

Then again, posting an unconventional list will rarely result in comments beyond advice to add more Wraithknights and Iontides :p

Marshal
23-02-2014, 13:09
Shortly after the farsight supplement came out I came up with and built the O'vesa bomb (O'vesa, regular Riptide and utility commander in a single squad, though I read a bunch of variations on it, especially with Farsight in the squad for deepstriking, though I prefer him with a 3rd riptide for that, best of all worlds, counts as WS5 in combat, but T6 for wounds)...now it's all over the place so I can't play it any more without people thinking of calling me out on it.

Still Standing
23-02-2014, 13:35
Noone cares if you lift your list from the net, or have the brilliance to recognize the obvious power choices in a book on your own. But making a list of the most obvious choices, doesn't merit any other comments beyond a pat on the head, as what else is left to say.

If you on the other hand made an unconventional list - like a Tau Stealth suit army, and explained your infallible tactics in using it to win tournaments, you just might get some praise and recognition. That is untill your list becomes the netlist du jour.

Then again, posting an unconventional list will rarely result in comments beyond advice to add more Wraithknights and Iontides :p

When I built my Eldar list it was unconventional. The day before I wrote it nobody in the world was running D-Scythe Wraithguard in Serpents and Wraithknights. They didn't exist. It's not my fault people like you don't like to face a solid list.

Ssilmath
23-02-2014, 16:20
When I built my Eldar list it was unconventional. The day before I wrote it nobody in the world was running D-Scythe Wraithguard in Serpents and Wraithknights. They didn't exist. It's not my fault people like you don't like to face a solid list.

If you think your list is all that difficult to design or takes much skill to use, you're pretty much dead wrong. It's a solid list, but it's an easy list.

Still Standing
23-02-2014, 16:34
Who mentioned any of that? He said unconventional. A conventional Eldar list is (was, at the time of the Codex release) mixed Aspect Warriors and Guardians, perhaps with some War Walkers and Vypers thrown in for good measure. Unconventional in that is was not like what went before.

Sir Didymus
23-02-2014, 18:23
When I built my Eldar list it was unconventional. The day before I wrote it nobody in the world was running D-Scythe Wraithguard in Serpents and Wraithknights. They didn't exist. It's not my fault people like you don't like to face a solid list.

Well, obviously you were too late, since You're complaining about people poking fun at you for using a 'netlist' :p