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Kung Fu Hamster
13-02-2014, 00:48
This is something that comes up every so often on some smaller (http://www.thefreebootaz.com/forum/showthread.php?26872-Someone-Explain-this-to-me-(Slight-Rant-Warning)) forums (http://www.theindependentcharacters.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=6743) and sites (http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2014/01/28/meat-meta-answer-haterade/), but it's quite rare that I see the topic brought up in so many places at the same time. The amount of negativity, pointless bashing, and overall vitriol is growing rapidly, and I wonder if the community as a whole may be approaching Peak Nerd Rage.


I know you've all seen it here before. Just take a look at all the Tyranid rage threads that appeared when the new codex was released, including this little gem. (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?387891-Opinions-on-the-Tyranid-codex-by-Tyranid-players-ONLY&p=7035504&highlight=defy+you%2C+Games+Workshop#post7035504)


This miasma of hate is only growing, and doesn't show any real signs of stopping on its own. Then, of course, there is all the hooplah about the LVO and the recent winner. Warseer has a reputation for being a haven of this sort of whining and venom, and other sites like DakkaDakka have wholly given themselves over to it; trying to discuss anything remotely 40K (or even GW) draws hatred like moths to a flame. Some people are simply passionate about the game, having played for years and not liking the new direction things have taken. While this is understandable, going overboard to such a degree isn't helping anything. Some people got fed up with GW/40K/Fantasy, quit the game, and spend most of their time bashing it and trying to pump up whatever game they switched over to. This is just fanning the flames and doesn't do anyone one damn bit of good. And some people just want to watch the internet burn.


It's puerile, asinine, and seriously needs to stop.


That's not to say there isn't room for criticism; there are plenty of areas that GW needs to improve on and plenty of flaws in 40K and Fantasy. Discussing shortcomings is one thing, but the depths the community as a whole has sunk to is geting ridiculous.


Rather than leave it at that, inviting haters and trolls to pop in with the tired old "well, you're complaining about people complaining so you're just as bad!" canard, I ask a question to the community as a whole: Is this what we want to be? Is this how we see ourselves and each other? Is this how we want to show ourselves to the rest of the world? How does any of this help anyone at all, aside from a cathartic venting of misplaced anger and aggression over a game involving plastic toy soldiers?


The community as a whole really needs to stop, take a deep breath, and look in the mirror. I know it's possible to not fall into the same spiral of hate that places like Dakka are stuck in. Just about every smaller 40K forum (The Dark City, various podcast forums, Carpe Noctem, etc.) manages to avoid this, so why can't the larger forums follow suit?


Nobody is going to come in and save us from ourselves; we have to do that. But in order to pull that off, we have to want to do it.


So do we want to save ourselves, or stay mired in the bitterness and hate?

IcedCrow
13-02-2014, 01:16
The nerd rage on warseer and portent before it has always been at high red-zone levels. Here are some highlights:

2000 - the land raider came out for $45.00. People lost their **** about GW price gouging
The 6th edition high elf book - produced a dozen whining threads from the high elf players that were used to skull jamming their opponents with their 5th ed book. So much rage. So little time.
All of the vast threads on how fear was broken in fantasy in 6th and 7th edition
All of the pricing rage threads that have existed since the 90s.
When chaos codex 3.5 hit and the power lists were being brought out - the amount of internet-poop that was dropped and set on fire... my god it was spectacular.
Eldar 3rd edition. The only faction that garnered more portent/warseer hate was the grey knights in the tail end of 5th edition. Tears of rage flowed like honey.

Every third or fourth thread was about GW dying, about to die, or how horrible GW games were. When PP came out with Warmachine, the boards lit up like perpetual christmas, never dimming, prophets of doom singing the end of GW was near any day now any day now falalalalalala la la la la.

That was just 1998 - 2003 or so.

Chem-Dog
13-02-2014, 01:20
Misery loves company.

Don't discount your own perspective change over the course of time. I know I used to give a hell of a lot more of a damn about things people complain about than I do now. You learn not to take it all so personally, or that ranting about it doesn't make a difference or that there are bigger things in the world to be pissed off about. Or you decide rather than put up with it you'll do what you need to do to make it work how you like it, house rule or write a new game or pick up a different game.

NagashLover
13-02-2014, 02:04
Misery loves company.

Don't discount your own perspective change over the course of time. I know I used to give a hell of a lot more of a damn about things people complain about than I do now. You learn not to take it all so personally, or that ranting about it doesn't make a difference or that there are bigger things in the world to be pissed off about. Or you decide rather than put up with it you'll do what you need to do to make it work how you like it, house rule or write a new game or pick up a different game.

This honestly.

Using Nids, the last dex was a huge disappointment for me. So I spent the majority of my time on starting a Dark Eldar army. That book just blew me away and removed all of my hatred with elf and elf like things.

I'd also toss in that as far as I'm aware Warseer is larger than those smaller sites you mention which means a larger pool of people coming together. This can lead to a "herd" perspective and bandwagon jumping (which is not exclusive to people who dislike a product or like a product, both have a fair share).

Being human we are wired to voice our opinions on things we dislike, and to do it more often than for things we do like (as those who enjoy a thing tend to be content with it and don't feel a need to praise it due to it being an assumed inherit quality).

I think "haters" on any one thing here should get a youtube video done together and make a chorus group. For those content with a product, voice your view but don't get bogged down with arguing with people so set in the bias they built for themselves. It just leads to circular arguing where, as in the thread you referenced, just leads to two sides gathering a band of cheerleaders together to try and drown one another out without any actual progress being made.

It isn't a new thing, as Iced points out, and it definitely won't go away but what you do have control over is how much interaction with the "conflict" you want to have with it. I'd just recommend staying constructive when possible or sparking up a constructive conversation. Listen to dissenters but by no means does it mean you have to respond to them if they are unreasonable.

NerZuhl
13-02-2014, 02:10
It's puerile, asinine, and seriously needs to stop.


That's not to say there isn't room for criticism; there are plenty of areas that GW needs to improve on and plenty of flaws in 40K and Fantasy. Discussing shortcomings is one thing, but the depths the community as a whole has sunk to is geting ridiculous.


Rather than leave it at that, inviting haters and trolls to pop in with the tired old "well, you're complaining about people complaining so you're just as bad!" canard, I ask a question to the community as a whole: Is this what we want to be? Is this how we see ourselves and each other? Is this how we want to show ourselves to the rest of the world? How does any of this help anyone at all, aside from a cathartic venting of misplaced anger and aggression over a game involving plastic toy soldiers?


The community as a whole really needs to stop, take a deep breath, and look in the mirror. I know it's possible to not fall into the same spiral of hate that places like Dakka are stuck in. Just about every smaller 40K forum (The Dark City, various podcast forums, Carpe Noctem, etc.) manages to avoid this, so why can't the larger forums follow suit?

Now that you have taken your high horse off of the soap box, I would like to point out my thoughts on the negativity.

I believe the negativity keeps growing because there is no response to it from its target. It is a like a cyst that never gets lanced. Just keeps building and building upon itself. Other miniature companies weather the same rage that the community spouts but responds to it. The response expresses the built up rage and things calm down. The level of rage has been high in the GW community for as long as I have been a member of it (I am not a long term vet, but got my decade badge). I have browsed other game forums and seen the rage, but as soon as the company responds, the rage finishes running its course.

In addition, there is a reason the internet is labeled "The Rage Machine".

Nurgling Chieftain
13-02-2014, 02:15
For my own part, I would prefer a thousand complaint threads to single "don't complain" thread.

I'm not saying you're just as bad. I'm saying you're worse.

Bubble Ghost
13-02-2014, 02:22
This is nothing to do with GW. Places on the internet bitch about things. A lot. Warseer is amateur hour compared to the negativity of the average broadsheet newspaper comments thread. And if you want to see real Olympic level complaining, then never mind gaming, head over to any sports team's forum. Check your faith in humanity at the door though, it'll get damaged.

NerZuhl
13-02-2014, 02:29
This is nothing to do with GW. Places on the internet bitch about things. A lot. Warseer is amateur hour compared to the negativity of the average broadsheet newspaper comments thread. And if you want to see real Olympic level complaining, then never mind gaming, head over to any sports team's forum. Check your faith in humanity at the door though, it'll get damaged.

To claim GW has nothing to do with the rage is a bit ignorant. That would be like saying "The Broncos aren't responsible for their fans rage".

Rage originates from disappointment in a product or result created by someone/something. The amount of rage is proportional to the number of people who share the opinion. People don't spontaneously fly into a rage because others are doing so.

Bubble Ghost
13-02-2014, 02:32
I just meant there's nothing remotely exceptional about it. People don't fly into a rage because others are, and I didn't say they did. But they will fly into a rage with the slightest provocation, for the very reason that they care so much.

IcedCrow
13-02-2014, 02:41
Ah but people lose themselves in the rage. It encourages negativity and bile like a nuclear reactor feeds itself.

tezdal
13-02-2014, 02:49
You think the hate is bad here? Lol Go over to TMP and learn the meaning of the word.

Kung Fu Hamster
13-02-2014, 03:16
You think the hate is bad here? Lol Go over to TMP and learn the meaning of the word.

Oh, I fully understand that it could be worse. I also understand that things don't have to get to that level before turning around.

Theocracity
13-02-2014, 03:22
It isn't a new thing, as Iced points out, and it definitely won't go away but what you do have control over is how much interaction with the "conflict" you want to have with it. I'd just recommend staying constructive when possible or sparking up a constructive conversation. Listen to dissenters but by no means does it mean you have to respond to them if they are unreasonable.

Every time I find myself getting too involved in an argument around here on a boring day, I have to remind myself of this.

AngryAngel
13-02-2014, 05:00
It is also important to remember, just because someone is unhappy, and voices it, doesn't mean they are always wrong. Just like someone who supports all that is GW with every breath isn't always right. Passions and your individual view can flavor how you read and respond to other people. Some complaints are universal and some people who rail against people complaining, might just enjoy to instigate, no real way to tell on here. Eventually the Nid hate will die down and be replaced by a new hate, it is just the way of things.

FredrikR
13-02-2014, 06:32
Obviously, all the nerd rage on WarSeer will eventually culminate in a cataclysmic interstellar disaster, giving birth to the fifth Great Chaos Power. Some nerds will reject their rage and escape the disaster by forming communities that float away into deep space and/or other hobbies. Others will start worshipping this new deity of rage and take up residence in the Nerdway, from where they will raid unsuspecting worlds for victims to torment with their tantrums and impotent fury.

The future looks bleak indeed... :)

Formerly Wu
13-02-2014, 06:56
Yesterday's rage seems less only because it is imperfectly remembered.

totgeboren
13-02-2014, 07:09
I think one of the reasons why the hate gets so out of hand is the collective feeling of 'helplessness' (though it sounds a bit dramatic).

There is no venue for w40k gamers to give feedback to the designers. It's the exact same problem at workplaces if the employees do not feel like they can give input on how to do their job, yet they can't really quit because they need the money.
There are a million situations where people feel like they cannot improve their situation, only accept and persevere or quit but then losing something they want. And it always leads to negative feelings.

If there was some way for players to give meaningful feedback to GW I think the whining would did down immensely (send a mail does not qualify, since anyone with half a brain understands that GW can't pay someone to compile thousands of e-mail of text, skimming through to find specific points).

Maybe a rating system on the units with comments? They could be hidden from public view (so they won't affect sales), but if GW allowed people to review their products on their homepage, and at the same time release big erratas say twice a year, then units that were perceived as OP could be slightly nerfed, and units no one ever took could be buffed. Then if they reset the rating after each errata they could gauge how the opinion changed.

For example, Ork Flash Gits. Before they got 'ignore cover', I bet they would have had a rating of 1/5. After the errata I think they would likely jump up to a 2/5, which is at least passable when it comes to friendly games.

If GW used the enormous amount of playtesting their customers do in a meaningful way, they could improve their products a lot, with almost no extra work to themselves.

But they will not do that, and that frustrates people.

Kakapo42
13-02-2014, 08:37
Ahh, I always knew this day would come. I've been noticing a distinct spike in venomous negativity on here myself (though that could be entirely due to paying a recent visit to the GW general forum), and have been wondering if it was just me.

I do think perhaps recently the 'community' has perhaps been a bit hard on GW. Sure, they're certainly no saints, but I think contrary to popular belief they do in fact try. Even then, yes they've made some bad moves, but as one of my teachers once told me after I got into a schoolyard tussle, everyone makes mistakes, the important thing is that you learn from them. Now as to whether or not GW learns from the mistakes it's made, only time will tell. In the mean time though, I think they should be cut a bit of slack. They're not some perfect paragon of tabletop virtue, they're a bunch of people in a business. People are flawed, and they do make mistakes. I mean, if you did a lousy paint job on a model or made a grievous error in the middle of a game would you want people to rip you to bits over it?

I also wonder if a lot of this is due to nostalgia. Take, for example, the curious case of the Chaos codex. From what I've seen, the 3.5 edition was at the time of it's release considered extremely powerful, and had much negativity thrown at it, but now it is lauded as the epitome of what a Chaos codex should be. For every comment ranting about some recent failing of GW, there seems to be another one talking about how much better everything used to be. Perhaps years from now the hobbyists and gamers of the future will talk about how brilliant the 6th edition Tyranid codex was compared to the 12th edition one. While ranting and raving about how prices are ludicrously and insanely high, how the newly released Dreadknight, Centurion and Storm Talon models are abysmal compared to the originals, and how the 12th edition Sisters of Battle codex is insanely overpowered and that Sisters of Battle and mono-Tzeench Chaos are the only worthwhile builds for competitive play, while Riptides and Wraithknights are strictly background flavour choices only and completely overpriced and guarantee a loss for the player using them. :p

Rage, rage never changes.

Killgore
13-02-2014, 08:47
It does not help that often the same faces appear on every forum sprouting out the same 'rage' filled comments. I use the word rage politely as other banned words would be more precise.

Check out the number of posts some users make in 'rage' threads, it is a vocal minority.

I just pity the poor gaming groups that have to put up with these people if they act like they do when behind a keyboard.

T10
13-02-2014, 08:49
It's puerile, asinine, and seriously needs to stop.


Congratulations, you have successfully fixed the Internet.

-T10

aim
13-02-2014, 08:52
This is something that comes up every so often on some smaller (http://www.thefreebootaz.com/forum/showthread.php?26872-Someone-Explain-this-to-me-(Slight-Rant-Warning)) forums (http://www.theindependentcharacters.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=6743) and sites (http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2014/01/28/meat-meta-answer-haterade/), but it's quite rare that I see the topic brought up in so many places at the same time. The amount of negativity, pointless bashing, and overall vitriol is growing rapidly, and I wonder if the community as a whole may be approaching Peak Nerd Rage.


I know you've all seen it here before. Just take a look at all the Tyranid rage threads that appeared when the new codex was released, including this little gem. (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?387891-Opinions-on-the-Tyranid-codex-by-Tyranid-players-ONLY&p=7035504&highlight=defy+you%2C+Games+Workshop#post7035504)


This miasma of hate is only growing, and doesn't show any real signs of stopping on its own. Then, of course, there is all the hooplah about the LVO and the recent winner. Warseer has a reputation for being a haven of this sort of whining and venom, and other sites like DakkaDakka have wholly given themselves over to it; trying to discuss anything remotely 40K (or even GW) draws hatred like moths to a flame. Some people are simply passionate about the game, having played for years and not liking the new direction things have taken. While this is understandable, going overboard to such a degree isn't helping anything. Some people got fed up with GW/40K/Fantasy, quit the game, and spend most of their time bashing it and trying to pump up whatever game they switched over to. This is just fanning the flames and doesn't do anyone one damn bit of good. And some people just want to watch the internet burn.


It's puerile, asinine, and seriously needs to stop.


That's not to say there isn't room for criticism; there are plenty of areas that GW needs to improve on and plenty of flaws in 40K and Fantasy. Discussing shortcomings is one thing, but the depths the community as a whole has sunk to is geting ridiculous.


Rather than leave it at that, inviting haters and trolls to pop in with the tired old "well, you're complaining about people complaining so you're just as bad!" canard, I ask a question to the community as a whole: Is this what we want to be? Is this how we see ourselves and each other? Is this how we want to show ourselves to the rest of the world? How does any of this help anyone at all, aside from a cathartic venting of misplaced anger and aggression over a game involving plastic toy soldiers?


The community as a whole really needs to stop, take a deep breath, and look in the mirror. I know it's possible to not fall into the same spiral of hate that places like Dakka are stuck in. Just about every smaller 40K forum (The Dark City, various podcast forums, Carpe Noctem, etc.) manages to avoid this, so why can't the larger forums follow suit?


Nobody is going to come in and save us from ourselves; we have to do that. But in order to pull that off, we have to want to do it.


So do we want to save ourselves, or stay mired in the bitterness and hate?

Unfortunately its the internet. I'm not saying there aren't valid reasons to complain, I'm just saying that complaining is both 'cool' and the safe option on the internet. Say something’s going to be the worst thing since AIDS, then if its slightly sub-par you can go on about how you are a predictive genius, if it pleases people, you can just say 'eh, its a surprise, look how bad they NORMALLY are'.

As already mentioned, its everywhere on the internet, just the same as if someone disagrees with you, people seem to think you can be as rude as you like to them with no repercussions, because;

Normal Person + Anonymity + Audience = Complete Assclown.

It is essentially an extension of the playground, except the majority of those trying to be ring leaders are those who were bullied at school, because all you need to do to be a ring leader on the internet is spout the most condescending vitriol. No one knows who you are, so you can say that you are the king of Persia if you want, if anyone questions you, just be REALLY ANGRY or REALLY DISMISSIVE and you're golden.

What is even worse than any of this though, are the childish idiots who lash out when its pointed out how bad the general behaviour is in some sort of "I'll do what I want and you can't make me feel bad about it" feet stamping tantrum.

You just need to try and stay a voice of reason, however a lot of the time, that gets you just as much crap thrown at you, because you aren't massively over the top bias to either side of the argument, therefore (in internet logic) you are trolling, or an enemy of both sides (and both sides will hurl insult at you saying that you are misinformed / wrong / mentally deficient because you don't agree with them).

I'd agree that its bad here, but not the worst. I'll top your 'sport team forums' suggestion with;

Go visit the Steam Powered user forums Counter Strike:Global Offensive sub forum. Everyone there pretends that they were a professional gamer at one point or another, and the user base is made up of old 1.6 players (who had to move over because the game died competitively on account of now looking eye-bleedingly bad and no one wanting to sponsor it) and old Source players (Who had to move over as that game has been a joke since the Orange Box update, compounded by pro players coming out and stating that there was a built-in wall hack that they had been using online since day1 thanks to a broken client side console variable).

These two groups of players hate each other vehemently and have very opposing views on how the new game should be developed. Every thread descends into "You're a fat kid that can't play" and "If you disagree with me its because you are bad and don't understand what I mean/why I'm saying that". It is the most soul destroying cess pool I have seen in my life.

Grand Master Azrael
13-02-2014, 08:58
Obviously, all the nerd rage on WarSeer will eventually culminate in a cataclysmic interstellar disaster, giving birth to the fifth Great Chaos Power. Some nerds will reject their rage and escape the disaster by forming communities that float away into deep space and/or other hobbies. Others will start worshipping this new deity of rage and take up residence in the Nerdway, from where they will raid unsuspecting worlds for victims to torment with their tantrums and impotent fury.

The future looks bleak indeed... :)

Nerds for the Nerd God! Geeks for the Geek throne!

Grand Master Azrael
13-02-2014, 09:00
Hows this for rage?
"Kill! Maim! Burn! Kill! Maim! Burn! Kill! Maim! Burn! Kill! Maim! Burn!"-Quote: Kharn the Betrayer

duffybear1988
13-02-2014, 09:52
Now that you have taken your high horse off of the soap box, I would like to point out my thoughts on the negativity.

I believe the negativity keeps growing because there is no response to it from its target. It is a like a cyst that never gets lanced. Just keeps building and building upon itself. Other miniature companies weather the same rage that the community spouts but responds to it. The response expresses the built up rage and things calm down. The level of rage has been high in the GW community for as long as I have been a member of it (I am not a long term vet, but got my decade badge). I have browsed other game forums and seen the rage, but as soon as the company responds, the rage finishes running its course.

In addition, there is a reason the internet is labeled "The Rage Machine".

This. All this.

duffybear1988
13-02-2014, 09:57
It does not help that often the same faces appear on every forum sprouting out the same 'rage' filled comments. I use the word rage politely as other banned words would be more precise.

Check out the number of posts some users make in 'rage' threads, it is a vocal minority.

I just pity the poor gaming groups that have to put up with these people if they act like they do when behind a keyboard.

You should see/hear the rest of my group! I'm tame compared to them...

Voss
13-02-2014, 10:04
Meh. Mindless passion is how some people express themselves whilst typing. The really dangerous stuff is indifference. That is a real sign of the end, as it means people are actually leaving and abandoning ship, not just throwing a tantrum so their pet opinion gets attention.

Gingerwerewolf
13-02-2014, 10:07
Something that just occured to me - Most People spend more time on the Forums than they do playing the game.

In fact I would say with todays connected society, that it is pretty hard not to!

This leads into my belief that Negativity is infectious. You log on and all you read is negativity, and it slowly infects you until you become more negative yourself.

I dont know if it is a Social thing (Conformaty & Normalcy bias eg not wanting to rock the boat) or that the constant barrage slowly trains your brain (Negative Reinforcement) as someone slapping you down for every positive comment you make. Or even a mixture of Both

But when all you get is
Gingerwerewolf:- :angel: "I think that GW is Great! Their rules are Great!"
Average Forum Response:- :mad: "Bad Gingerwerewolf! Naughty Gingerwerewolf! Stupid Gingerwerewolf! Your Opinion is not wanted here! Grrrrr"
Gingerwerewolf:- :cries:

It kinda puts a dampener on the old enthusiasm.

If GW brought out Forums and Moderated them properly - I for one would be happier

Sir Didymus
13-02-2014, 10:09
For my own part, I would prefer a thousand complaint threads to single "don't complain" thread.

I'm not saying you're just as bad. I'm saying you're worse.

Oooh a third tier complaint about complaining over complaints - nice ;)

williamsond
13-02-2014, 10:13
I think some of the rage is also fueled by the fact that on the forums we have the meeting point for both sides of the discussion, we have caustic old gits who would denounce GW as evil if they gave away free gold eggs with every box set, and at the other end the fan boys who would happly smile and thank GW is they pushed fine cast drop pods up their backsides while charging them 1000 pounds for it. Which ever side of the argument that our posters come from they are passionate and when two opposing philosophies meet you are going to have rage. The fan boys just cant see what the problem is so the bearded gits fuled by this get upset and shout louder which in turn makes the fans get bent out of shape as the gits are being unreasonable... and so on and so on. i think we will just have to live with it and hope the Mods make sure it doesn't get personnal. (My self I'm on the side of the miserable old bearded gits and I'm off to get my pitch fork, get off my lawn...)

BigbyWolf
13-02-2014, 10:31
So do we want to save ourselves, or stay mired in the bitterness and hate?

I prefer option three- Hide in the Chaos Wastes, and slink out every now and then to marvel at the levels of rage that GeeDub brings to the rest of the forums and Whatnot. Then, shivering in terror, retreat to the safety of teh Wastes once more...

duffybear1988
13-02-2014, 11:17
If GW brought out Forums and Moderated them properly - I for one would be happier

They used to have their own forums but closed them down when people asked them to fix legitimate problems. Now if GW managed to moderate their own craptastic rules I think that would certainly ease some of the moaning.

Vipoid
13-02-2014, 11:21
Now that you have taken your high horse off of the soap box, I would like to point out my thoughts on the negativity.

I believe the negativity keeps growing because there is no response to it from its target. It is a like a cyst that never gets lanced. Just keeps building and building upon itself. Other miniature companies weather the same rage that the community spouts but responds to it. The response expresses the built up rage and things calm down. The level of rage has been high in the GW community for as long as I have been a member of it (I am not a long term vet, but got my decade badge). I have browsed other game forums and seen the rage, but as soon as the company responds, the rage finishes running its course.

In addition, there is a reason the internet is labeled "The Rage Machine".


I think one of the reasons why the hate gets so out of hand is the collective feeling of 'helplessness' (though it sounds a bit dramatic).

There is no venue for w40k gamers to give feedback to the designers. It's the exact same problem at workplaces if the employees do not feel like they can give input on how to do their job, yet they can't really quit because they need the money.
There are a million situations where people feel like they cannot improve their situation, only accept and persevere or quit but then losing something they want. And it always leads to negative feelings.

If there was some way for players to give meaningful feedback to GW I think the whining would did down immensely (send a mail does not qualify, since anyone with half a brain understands that GW can't pay someone to compile thousands of e-mail of text, skimming through to find specific points).

Maybe a rating system on the units with comments? They could be hidden from public view (so they won't affect sales), but if GW allowed people to review their products on their homepage, and at the same time release big erratas say twice a year, then units that were perceived as OP could be slightly nerfed, and units no one ever took could be buffed. Then if they reset the rating after each errata they could gauge how the opinion changed.

For example, Ork Flash Gits. Before they got 'ignore cover', I bet they would have had a rating of 1/5. After the errata I think they would likely jump up to a 2/5, which is at least passable when it comes to friendly games.

If GW used the enormous amount of playtesting their customers do in a meaningful way, they could improve their products a lot, with almost no extra work to themselves.

But they will not do that, and that frustrates people.

I think these sum it up well. Also, it's not like people are getting angry about a new game or some very fine tweaking in unit costs. This is the 6th edition of 40k and the 8th edition of Fantasy; yet we're still seeing units that are horribly under-/over-priced, poorly-written rules and abilities/wargear that are outright terrible.

That sort of thing frustrates players but, since GW's policy seems to be 'no feedback ever', there's not really anywhere else they can express their irritation.


For my own part, I would prefer a thousand complaint threads to single "don't complain" thread.

I'm not saying you're just as bad. I'm saying you're worse.

Likewise.


As an aside, since there's apparently a need to unnecessarily categorise rages, is there such a thing as 'jock-rage'?

Chem-Dog
13-02-2014, 12:04
Another aspect of this phenomenon is the willingness to consider a particular thread/post/comment as "rage". In a way it denigrates the subject by saying "Your opinion/feelings/experiences are worthless".If you're seeing an increase in "rage" then perhaps you should consider what you classify "rage" as rather than assume it's on the increase.

Brimweave
13-02-2014, 12:42
Something that just occured to me - Most People spend more time on the Forums than they do playing the game.

In fact I would say with todays connected society, that it is pretty hard not to!

This leads into my belief that Negativity is infectious. You log on and all you read is negativity, and it slowly infects you until you become more negative yourself.

I dont know if it is a Social thing (Conformaty & Normalcy bias eg not wanting to rock the boat) or that the constant barrage slowly trains your brain (Negative Reinforcement) as someone slapping you down for every positive comment you make. Or even a mixture of Both

But when all you get is
Gingerwerewolf:- :angel: "I think that GW is Great! Their rules are Great!"
Average Forum Response:- :mad: "Bad Gingerwerewolf! Naughty Gingerwerewolf! Stupid Gingerwerewolf! Your Opinion is not wanted here! Grrrrr"
Gingerwerewolf:- :cries:

It kinda puts a dampener on the old enthusiasm.

If GW brought out Forums and Moderated them properly - I for one would be happier

I've seen this happen a lot personally especially in gaming online communities. People slag off a game or moan about a crippling issue so much it seems like everyone agrees with that opinion. Once you go out to the real world and away from the hive mind you find that the issue no one really cares much about and they just enjoy playing the game :).

Most common and never ending moan I've seen since starting in 2007 is that GW is going to go bust. 6+ years later they're still going and the prices still go up.

IcedCrow
13-02-2014, 12:49
They used to have their own forums but closed them down when people asked them to fix legitimate problems. Now if GW managed to moderate their own craptastic rules I think that would certainly ease some of the moaning.

Well...they took them down because the white hot nerd-rage of the GW forums makes even the most venomous bile filled posts here look like cherry kool-aid. No one wanted the job of being moderator of the GW forums. That place required that you decontaminate with bleach after logging out.

Wesser
13-02-2014, 12:51
Many of us likes to blow off a Little steam

I can handle the prices increases and stuff. Just have to be Little clever about what I buy


It's more the decisions they make and don't make

- Poor Internal balance leaving a sense of shoddiness
- Models never getting new models despite sculpts being basically done already (e.g. zombies and empire knights)
- Armies standing around for decades with noone sure if the army might even get the axe
- Frost Phoenixes

Ranting on the internet is totally okay as long as you ain't racist and somesuch. Don't like it? Skip the post.

Just like I should have skipped this thread, because "Don't Nerd Rage" and "Anti-flaming" threads that takes this kind of condescending tone is something that should be downloaded into one harddrive, which should be broken, burned and buried next to Hitler. In other Words they suck

Wesser
13-02-2014, 12:52
Well...they took them down because the white hot nerd-rage of the GW forums makes even the most venomous bile filled posts here look like cherry kool-aid. No one wanted the job of being moderator of the GW forums. That place required that you decontaminate with bleach after logging out.

They should hire the Guys from World of Warcraft then....:)

Vipoid
13-02-2014, 12:53
Once you go out to the real world and away from the hive mind you find that the issue no one really cares much about and they just enjoy playing the game :).

Have you considered that this is because the internet offers anonymity?

When you talk to people in person, there's far more pressure to conform. Also, they will remember what you say and may judge you by it.

What I'm saying is that some of the people who 'just want to play the game and have fun' in public might be a lot more vocal on the internet. Not all of them, obviously, but certainly some.

Johnnya10
13-02-2014, 13:16
I have to agree that this place has been getting a lot more rage-heavy of late, and it was getting to a point where Warseer was becoming a dull place to come to (especially the 40k general pages) because everything on here is just so negative. However I read that Tyranid thread yesterday and just ended up laughing at most of it because it just got so funny. It's not that I'm mocking but it gets really OTT really quickly. I've known worse and I dare say there's worse to come, but at the moment, it's pretty darn bleak.

That being said, this is the internet. This site is a relatively calming place populated by intelligent human beings and compared to many of the other forums out there, it's an idyll. And, as has already been noted by someone else, the comments you get here, even at the height of nerd rage, are not nearly as bad as some from other sites like newspaper comment sections and, my least favourite, the news comments sections on Yahoo! where a very special breed of **** lives.

The thing is, we all have a moan, and though it's important to remember that this is just a game, even if some of us can get very passionate about it. And it can be very cathartic to vent at GW and yes, they can be a very frustrating company too. As someone who doesn't get upset about every minor change, broken unit or price hike even, I tend to avoid Warseer and most of the other forums around release time, though this Tyranid hate seems to have dragged out a lot more than most.

Looking forward to next month's Guard hatred. See you there. ;)

IcedCrow
13-02-2014, 13:27
I don't think the guard will have a lot of hate.

The next epic rage boil over will be the ork codex. Because people are hoping they will have a way to assault without overwatch and have an OTT build.

If the orks get a power build, the rage will be docile, along the lines of the eldar and tau whining that went on when their release came out. If they lack a power build, it will be tyranid-whine (which is CSM whine in disguise) in disguise. V2.0

Spiney Norman
13-02-2014, 13:28
Ooooh, a rage-against-the-rage thread *gets popcorn*

Anggul
13-02-2014, 13:48
You can't really blame people for disliking the unbalanced codices GW tend to write. It's a perfectly legitimate concern.

Some people get far too abusive, petty and childish about it, and they need to grow up, but the source of their annoyance is generally legitimate.

GW make obviously bad rules for some units, whether they're overpowered or underpowered. As I see it, if they did a comprehensively good job (which wouldn't be massively hard, or at least to get close), they wouldn't be able to sell a new 'update' of the book later. By 'update' I mean 'we fixed some things that were bad before, left some other things that were bad and didn't fix them, and made some good things bad.' It's never fixed, just broken in a different way. If they ever fixed it all, they couldn't sell another one a few years later. They would have to only sell the rules for new units, possibly in small booklets or something. That would make them less money, so they're never going to bring out fully internally balanced codices. They will eternally string people along with the promise of salvation in a few years time in the form of a new codex, then shoot them down with something else they made crappy or too strong, and people will continue to buy.

This isn't likely to change. Their customers would be a lot less annoyed, but they would make less money. Call it a bit conspiracist, but it would make sense. We have also heard reports (I have no idea how true, might be a load of rubbish) that they purposely ignore most of the suggestions of their playtesters. That would make sense.

That or they really are just that stupid and incapable of comprehending balance, but I find that hard to believe. Either way, you can't say GW don't ask for it. On the other hand it won't help, so there isn't much point.

Formerly Wu
13-02-2014, 14:49
You just need to try and stay a voice of reason, however a lot of the time, that gets you just as much crap thrown at you, because you aren't massively over the top bias to either side of the argument, therefore (in internet logic) you are trolling, or an enemy of both sides (and both sides will hurl insult at you saying that you are misinformed / wrong / mentally deficient because you don't agree with them).
Good post.

Another good approach is to realize the actual value of "winning" an internet argument (zero), and to have the courtesy to allow fools to be fools if they're so inclined. The delete key and the block function are the sane poster's best friends.


I'd agree that its bad here, but not the worst. I'll top your 'sport team forums' suggestion with;

Go visit the Steam Powered user forums Counter Strike:Global Offensive sub forum.
...
These two groups of players hate each other vehemently and have very opposing views on how the new game should be developed. Every thread descends into "You're a fat kid that can't play" and "If you disagree with me its because you are bad and don't understand what I mean/why I'm saying that". It is the most soul destroying cess pool I have seen in my life.
See also: the Starcraft: Brood War forums circa 1999 (any Blizzard forum, for that matter), or any political blog in the history of ever.

Let's all just take a moment and be thankful we live in a society where people can vent their spleen over such frivolous things as a plastic toy soldiers game in a totally harmless environment. Historically, the outlets for such frustration were much less benign.

Muad'Dib
13-02-2014, 15:45
It's not "peak nerd rage", because it's rather legitimate - the Tyranid codex is very disappointing - even if we just go by the obvious thing like Pyrovores, Lictors, Rippers, Tyranid Primes, removal of Mycetic Spores...and this is after all the attention that the Marine codex got. I think what many people have realized finally is that yes, GW workshop doesn't care about making the rules interesting or balanced....for some armies, that is.

And Warseer General was always rather volatile - people just seem to like arguing and dividing themselves in camps. Weren't there like 8-10 threads in row for few months, concerning "Chaos Space Marine count as" ?

Denny
13-02-2014, 15:50
Peak Nerd Rage would imply it will never get any worse from this point on.

I'd like to believe that.

I can't, but I'd like to. :(

The Emperor
13-02-2014, 15:52
For my own part, I would prefer a thousand complaint threads to single "don't complain" thread.

I'm not saying you're just as bad. I'm saying you're worse.

Agreed. At least that complaining is directed at stuff like getting a codex which some players believe is subpar for an army they've already poured hundreds to thousands of dollars into, only to find it becoming worse and some of their units vanishing from existence. This complaining, however, is directed at forum posts which the OP can pretty easily ignore.

Menthak
13-02-2014, 17:33
This is something that comes up every so often on some smaller (http://www.thefreebootaz.com/forum/showthread.php?26872-Someone-Explain-this-to-me-(Slight-Rant-Warning)) forums (http://www.theindependentcharacters.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=6743) and sites (http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2014/01/28/meat-meta-answer-haterade/), but it's quite rare that I see the topic brought up in so many places at the same time. The amount of negativity, pointless bashing, and overall vitriol is growing rapidly, and I wonder if the community as a whole may be approaching Peak Nerd Rage.


I know you've all seen it here before. Just take a look at all the Tyranid rage threads that appeared when the new codex was released, including this little gem. (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?387891-Opinions-on-the-Tyranid-codex-by-Tyranid-players-ONLY&p=7035504&highlight=defy+you%2C+Games+Workshop#post7035504)


This miasma of hate is only growing, and doesn't show any real signs of stopping on its own. Then, of course, there is all the hooplah about the LVO and the recent winner. Warseer has a reputation for being a haven of this sort of whining and venom, and other sites like DakkaDakka have wholly given themselves over to it; trying to discuss anything remotely 40K (or even GW) draws hatred like moths to a flame. Some people are simply passionate about the game, having played for years and not liking the new direction things have taken. While this is understandable, going overboard to such a degree isn't helping anything. Some people got fed up with GW/40K/Fantasy, quit the game, and spend most of their time bashing it and trying to pump up whatever game they switched over to. This is just fanning the flames and doesn't do anyone one damn bit of good. And some people just want to watch the internet burn.


It's puerile, asinine, and seriously needs to stop.


That's not to say there isn't room for criticism; there are plenty of areas that GW needs to improve on and plenty of flaws in 40K and Fantasy. Discussing shortcomings is one thing, but the depths the community as a whole has sunk to is geting ridiculous.


Rather than leave it at that, inviting haters and trolls to pop in with the tired old "well, you're complaining about people complaining so you're just as bad!" canard, I ask a question to the community as a whole: Is this what we want to be? Is this how we see ourselves and each other? Is this how we want to show ourselves to the rest of the world? How does any of this help anyone at all, aside from a cathartic venting of misplaced anger and aggression over a game involving plastic toy soldiers?


The community as a whole really needs to stop, take a deep breath, and look in the mirror. I know it's possible to not fall into the same spiral of hate that places like Dakka are stuck in. Just about every smaller 40K forum (The Dark City, various podcast forums, Carpe Noctem, etc.) manages to avoid this, so why can't the larger forums follow suit?


Nobody is going to come in and save us from ourselves; we have to do that. But in order to pull that off, we have to want to do it.


So do we want to save ourselves, or stay mired in the bitterness and hate?

First off, raging against nerd hate IS nerd hate.

Secondly, you've been on the forums since 2013, so you've only really seen a little bit of tyranid rage, wait before you pass judgement (also, I agree with Reinholt's idea, but as I don't play tyranids, I can't join in, when he asks me to crush a Astartes I'll join).

Thirdly, if the smaller sites are better, bugger off to them.

Fourthly (and finally) I'm fine in my mire of bitterness and hate, it's how I live, it's how I play.

Vipoid
13-02-2014, 17:35
Thirdly, if the smaller sites are better, bugger off to them.

I'm tempted to sig this. :D

Menthak
13-02-2014, 17:37
I'm tempted to sig this. :D

If you do it quickly, I'll send you a free crushed 'Gaunt :D

Reinholt
13-02-2014, 17:38
I salute the OP for not recognizing what was a tongue-in-cheek gesture towards GW.

With that said, I would like to echo three things:

1 - Complaining about complaining on a forum that is free is complaining that you made a choice to read a bunch of things, for free. Well, why don't you just not do that, then? Nobody is forcing you to do it, and I would suggest you are making this far worse by complaining about complaining.

2 - When I deal with complaints at work, I always divide things by two categories:

First, is it justified? Nobody is perfect. No business is perfect. I like to think I do a pretty good job, but I'm not going to achieve a 100% success rate (and I'd be a deluded fool to think so). The trick is to try to maximize the value of success, and to understand when you have failed. So when someone complains, you have to parse it. On here, some good examples would be:

Complaints that Tyranids lack any top-tier tournament builds that stomp face in easy mode. Not legitimate - books should compare evenly across the board.

Complaints that Tyranids have a large body of units which are either mis-designed or mis-pointed. Legitimate - Pyrovore wording is a mess, Rippers are... confusing, at best, in their costing.

Second, do I care? I, in this case, is the perspective of the producer. Sometimes, I get justifiable complaints, but I just don't care. This is rare, but it happens, usually when I know something is sub-optimal but it's impossible to fix it within reason.

Most of the time, I do care. I live in a market, not an autocratic government monopoly. If I don't fix it, eventually* a competitor will.

*Eventually can be a long time. Often, longer than one would predict.

Based on this, you can evaluate the complaint. The amount of complaining has not changed over time (it's the internet!). However, the amount of complaining about justified things GW should care about has skyrocketed. This makes things feel more negative, as we can all see the truth at the heart of the complaint (even if we are not in full agreement). Less people will argue or object to these complaints.

3 - GW has a tone-deaf attitude to this. Even if they care, they project the attitude that they do not. This does them no favors. It also means complaints live in an echo chamber where they grow louder with each passing year. Many other companies do not do this.

This brings me back to my point about competition. One of the reasons people complain is that if GW does not listen, there will come a point in the future where they will no longer have the opportunity to listen. They won't have enough customers and their competitors will win the field. Their current financials reveal this trend continues.

Vipoid
13-02-2014, 17:41
If you do it quickly, I'll send you a free crushed 'Gaunt :D

Done - I'll pm you my address. ;)

gwarsh41
13-02-2014, 17:50
I think the tyranid book release has been one of the higher ranked moments on the "RAGE-O-METER". I thought the daemons release was the worst amount of rage I had ever seen. Having the White dwarf update putting them front and center in the competitive scene, then 6th taking them back out of it, as well as introducing plenty of new dice rolls. The warpstorm table and random rewards was a punch in the kidney to a lot of WAAC people, as well as long term players. I didn't think the rage could get worse. Then Nids were dropped and it got worse.

I rarely see the anger outside of the internet though. I have met 2 people since the book came out who say that nids are the worst thing in the game. Those people didn't even play tyranids, they just saw someone else was. Everyone I have seen and met playing tyranids has been enjoying them. The rage is localized to the internet, where people are not accountable for what they say or do. This WILL NEVER CHANGE. Orks will either be amazing, or the worst thing since tyranids, as will every book after that. Again, daemons are a good example, worst book in 6th, you can lose the game on turn 1 if you roll bad on the warpstorm table (which is still true) the book later became the most OP book in existence with screamerstar and fateweaver. Belakor allied in didn't help. Now we have moved forward, and people are called Daemons a middle of the road book.

Every time you think the anger and rage of random people on the internet cannot get worse, it will. With the ork release there will probably be someone who glues all +100 of his boys together in a giant ork ball and claims he drops it on his opponents army, because that is what he thinks of the new book. People wont make sense, they wont have reason, and they wont calm down. If you don't like the rage, do your very best to ignore it. These people are furnaces who will burn up any words they hear and spit out angry flames in return. Don't give them fuel and all they can do is be mad with themselves until they burn out.

Grand Master Azrael
13-02-2014, 19:50
Agreed. At least that complaining is directed at stuff like getting a codex which some players believe is subpar for an army they've already poured hundreds to thousands of dollars into, only to find it becoming worse and some of their units vanishing from existence. This complaining, however, is directed at forum posts which the OP can pretty easily ignore.

I also Agree. People have a right to complain if their Codex Sucks.

Abaraxas
14-02-2014, 00:06
The project log threads are full of positivity, it seems it's general and both the warhammer sections that have all the "rage" in them.

Surgency
14-02-2014, 00:20
The project log threads are full of positivity, it seems it's general and both the warhammer sections that have all the "rage" in them.

People who approach this as a hobby instead of a competitive sport tend to be happier with things overall, from what i see

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

Valkyrie Sky
14-02-2014, 00:29
2 sides, same coin, concept old as humanity itself.
1 side nerd rage
1 side circle jerk.

Im not scared of realizing the truth.

NerZuhl
14-02-2014, 01:06
People who approach this as a hobby instead of a competitive sport tend to be happier with things overall, from what i see

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk
Because they are isolated from what GW does worst, writing rules. GW makes some great models but can't game design their way out of a wet paper bag. The real shame of it is that they charge a premium price for such a poor quality product (rules).

IcedCrow
14-02-2014, 01:18
People that dont treat warhammer like they are competing in the NFL experience the same rules as those that do.

The problem is the game is not designed to be the NFL.

Surgency
14-02-2014, 01:22
Because they are isolated from what GW does worst, writing rules. GW makes some great models but can't game design their way out of a wet paper bag. The real shame of it is that they charge a premium price for such a poor quality product (rules).

I didn't realize i played a different ruleset than others

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NerZuhl
14-02-2014, 01:52
I didn't realize i played a different ruleset than others

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

Are you really saying current GW rulesets are well written and worth the value attached to them?

Ssilmath
14-02-2014, 01:57
Are you really saying current GW rulesets are well written and worth the value attached to them?

Apparently some people enjoy playing these rulesets. For them it delivers everything they need, or if not they have no problem with altering the rules to suit their needs. Sometimes you don't even need to change the rules, just the way you go about implementing them.

NagashLover
14-02-2014, 01:58
Are you really saying current GW rulesets are well written and worth the value attached to them?
Are you implying it can only be one or the other? That varying degrees of acceptance or disappointment can't possibly exist in a world that is never just this or that outside of pure impractical theory?

I can't say it's my favorite edition but I can still say it's playable and I enjoy it. Just because I like pizza doesn't mean I like every pizza regardless of toppings.

You presented a loaded question to force a bias one way or the other, rather than realizing people can enjoy the game without having some issues with it.

NerZuhl
14-02-2014, 02:00
People that dont treat warhammer like they are competing in the NFL experience the same rules as those that do.

The problem is the game is not designed to be the NFL.
I didn't realize that well written rules that are easy to understand and don't leave much up to debate, only exist in the realm of competitive games.

The rules GW provides are not free or at a low cost. They sell them as a premium product. As a premium product quality assurance is something that is reasonable to expect. Typos, poor English phrasing, and non-functional units/abilities should not be present in a premium product or at the very least be addressed in a timely well thought out fashion.

Surgency
14-02-2014, 02:01
Are you really saying current GW rulesets are well written and worth the value attached to them?

If someone pays the value that is attached to them, then they also are implicitly agreeing that the rules are worth the value attached

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NerZuhl
14-02-2014, 02:05
Apparently some people enjoy playing these rulesets. For them it delivers everything they need, or if not they have no problem with altering the rules to suit their needs. Sometimes you don't even need to change the rules, just the way you go about implementing them.

I enjoy microwave pizzas that are slightly burnt. Doesn't mean I am going to say that it is a high quality product. One can derive enjoyment from something that has flaws.

However, you are correct. How much enjoyment one derives from the rules is up to them. I however don't see the correlation between the price attached to the product GW is presenting.

Ssilmath
14-02-2014, 02:08
I didn't realize that well written rules that are easy to understand and don't leave much up to debate, only exist in the realm of competitive games.

You know, the rules aren't that hard to understand for me. Most of the debate I see comes from people trying to use alternate definitions of words to twist the intention of the rule to their favor, and that is not unique to GW. I've taught the game to several people, and done the same with Warmachine. In general, I have found that people pick up 40k much quicker and don't have to be eased into learning the layers upon layers of special rules and interactions.

NerZuhl
14-02-2014, 02:08
If someone pays the value that is attached to them, then they also are implicitly agreeing that the rules are worth the value attached

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

That is an accurate point and well said.

With that said though, I just wish people expected the same quality out of the rules that they expect out of the models. Finecast is to me a good metaphore (I always get these mixed up) for the state of the rules. Some people like it and don't mind filling in the bubbles and missing bits with additional tools bought from the same seller.

NerZuhl
14-02-2014, 02:14
You know, the rules aren't that hard to understand for me. Most of the debate I see comes from people trying to use alternate definitions of words to twist the intention of the rule to their favor, and that is not unique to GW. I've taught the game to several people, and done the same with Warmachine. In general, I have found that people pick up 40k much quicker and don't have to be eased into learning the layers upon layers of special rules and interactions.

Beginners are never a good source of quality for a rule set. Veterans are the ones who will notice short comings. Infinity, Warmachine, FoW, Malifaux, and more all suffer from the same problem. However, the companies for the most part are quick to address them. In addition those companies don't attach a premium price to their rule sets or if they are take strides to keep things functioning smoothly.

There are tons of instances of rules that are face palm worthy that have never been addressed. Just because RAI is easily determined doesn't excuse poor writing. Pyrovore's rules are obvious from a RAI stand point, but the phrasing used for them is absurd. Flaming Chariot is still utter trash because it was designed to just not work. Hell, Multi-Trackers still spark discussions. The game functions just fine with patches from the players, but why is this an acceptable thing? Why should players have to patch the game themselves? Especially if they are paying such a high price for the product. It would be like telling players of a video game that "That item is bugged and doesn't work" and expect players to patch it themselves.

Ssilmath
14-02-2014, 02:18
It would be like telling players of a video game that "That item is bugged and doesn't work" and expect players to patch it themselves.

Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines had that problem, or very similar. It's still a game beloved by many people.

I'm not going to say GW doesn't have a few missteps in their wordings. Not going to say they don't make mistakes in rules, nor that they couldn't do better about addressing some of them. But on the whole I don't find it very bad, nor is it any more unbalanced than any other tabletop game I have played.

I also don't think my experience is universal. I can't wrap my head around the Infinity rules, but as I understand it the game is pretty tightly written and a lot of fun.

NerZuhl
14-02-2014, 02:25
Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines had that problem, or very similar. It's still a game beloved by many people.

I'm not going to say GW doesn't have a few missteps in their wordings. Not going to say they don't make mistakes in rules, nor that they couldn't do better about addressing some of them. But on the whole I don't find it very bad, nor is it any more unbalanced than any other tabletop game I have played.

I also don't think my experience is universal. I can't wrap my head around the Infinity rules, but as I understand it the game is pretty tightly written and a lot of fun.
I never actually spoke towards balance since that is something that is very very tricky to handle. I am just speaking to rule crafting itself.

Infinity suffers from translation troubles, but then again their rules are free and is hard to argue against that.

IcedCrow
14-02-2014, 02:30
Ahhhh so this is about someone finding something not being worth something, and so that automatically makes it so universally.

Worth is subjective to the person buying whatever it is. If someone is willing to spend the money on something, then its worth it to them. Otherwise... don't spend the money on the item in question.

Ssilmath
14-02-2014, 02:32
I never actually spoke towards balance since that is something that is very very tricky to handle. I am just speaking to rule crafting itself.

Infinity suffers from translation troubles, but then again their rules are free and is hard to argue against that.

The core rules I find to be pretty well done, particularly in 6th. Your mileage may vary of course, but there's not much that seems ambiguous. I find the dominance of shooting (The most common complaint I see) is suitably curtailed by terrain, but once again YMMV and that's been covered many times (Though nobody seems to actually listen to what I say and instead jump right to an extreme). Within codexes, there are some errors that probably shouldn't be there or should be FAQ'd, no doubts there. GW was very good about FAQ's for a while, not sure what happened there. Maybe they got frustrated after being belabored by people complaining about day 1 FAQ's and they figured that it wasn't worth it anymore.

NerZuhl
14-02-2014, 02:33
Ahhhh so this is about someone finding something not being worth something, and so that automatically makes it so universally.

Worth is subjective to the person buying whatever it is. If someone is willing to spend the money on something, then its worth it to them. Otherwise... don't spend the money on the item in question.
You must have not read my post where I agreed with someone who said this and then expressed my wishes that things would change a bit. Otherwise you would just putting words in my mouth in order to make a point, and you wouldn't do that.

IcedCrow
14-02-2014, 02:40
You must have not read my post where I agreed with someone who said this and then expressed my wishes that things would change a bit. Otherwise you would just putting words in my mouth in order to make a point, and you wouldn't do that.

I saw your post about how the game is horrible for its value, hit reply and typed in my response. :)

wanderingblade
14-02-2014, 02:57
I enjoy microwave pizzas that are slightly burnt. Doesn't mean I am going to say that it is a high quality product. One can derive enjoyment from something that has flaws.

However, you are correct. How much enjoyment one derives from the rules is up to them. I however don't see the correlation between the price attached to the product GW is presenting.

This is how I feel. I also get the feel from reading here, from reading elsewhere, that while there are a great many people who are happy that the rules present value for money, there are also a great many who don't.

I also don't think that all of the dissatisfied are tournament gamers. I'd argue they're better off. They're happy to play in a meta where the poorly-designed units and armies are largely ignored. It's people who don't want to ignore buggy units but who don't want to deal with them either who are in a bad place. I would put myself in those ranks, which probably affects my view of the situation mind. But there we go. I brought Codex Eldar and Codex SoB from GW as I wanted to support them. Now I make a point of buying from ebay.

I will never get the mentality that says tight rulesets are for tournament gamers only. Everyone benefits. Yes, we could police the rules in our group, and we do. But at the price GW wants, I don't believe I should have to do so as much as seems to be needed. So I make a point of buying cheaper without giving money directly to them.

edit: Just to note - my anecdote is not everyone's ancedote, or hard evidence of a pattern amongst people, and I just want to make that clear.

Surgency
14-02-2014, 03:09
I will never get the mentality that says tight rulesets are for tournament gamers only.

Nobodies saying that tight rulesets are for tournament gamers only. What we're saying is that tight rulesets just do not exist. Every tabletop game out there has issues, some addressed faster than others, and some that continue for quite a long while. A quick jaunt over to the PP rules forums shows that there are PLENTY of rules questions, and even a few debates about what some rules actually mean and how some rules interact with each other. The ONLY game I've ever seen that had a clean, nearly question-free release was FFGs X-Wing. And now that more models are being released, guess what happens.... Questions start to arise, and FAQs are required.

Reinholt
14-02-2014, 03:15
Nobodies saying that tight rulesets are for tournament gamers only. What we're saying is that tight rulesets just do not exist. Every tabletop game out there has issues, some addressed faster than others, and some that continue for quite a long while. A quick jaunt over to the PP rules forums shows that there are PLENTY of rules questions, and even a few debates about what some rules actually mean and how some rules interact with each other. The ONLY game I've ever seen that had a clean, nearly question-free release was FFGs X-Wing. And now that more models are being released, guess what happens.... Questions start to arise, and FAQs are required.

Yes, but at least PP has forums where they attempt to address these things and be responsive to their customers. I haven't seen significant rules questions or confusion outstanding for years with PP. I have with GW.

GW charges more for their rules.

?

NerZuhl
14-02-2014, 03:19
Nobodies saying that tight rulesets are for tournament gamers only. What we're saying is that tight rulesets just do not exist. Every tabletop game out there has issues, some addressed faster than others, and some that continue for quite a long while. A quick jaunt over to the PP rules forums shows that there are PLENTY of rules questions, and even a few debates about what some rules actually mean and how some rules interact with each other. The ONLY game I've ever seen that had a clean, nearly question-free release was FFGs X-Wing. And now that more models are being released, guess what happens.... Questions start to arise, and FAQs are required.

Actually I believe we need to come to a consensus on what a tight rule set is. I don't see a tight rule set as being flawless, but being free of broken rules and responsibly kept updated to address issues that arise.

By this definition I would say Infinity has a tight rule set. It is poorly formatted and a bit of a learning curve, but for the most part everything has an answer to it and those that don't are addressed in a timely fashion.

Warmachine isn't as tight as they claim it to be, but they work at it at least.

Malifaux (only have experience with the original edition) wasn't tight and had problem areas, but the developers were constantly patching and trying to fix them as it went.

40k and Fantasy have loose rule sets. They have broken rules and units (either non-functional or game altering in a negative way) and other problem areas that aren't addressed or even attempted to be addressed.

To me I wouldn't be bothered so much by this if it wasn't for the fact that GW charges way more money for their rules than the other 3 games do. (complete rule set, not just the core book, but a core book + codex)

Surgency
14-02-2014, 03:25
Yes, but at least PP has forums where they attempt to address these things and be responsive to their customers. I haven't seen significant rules questions or confusion outstanding for years with PP. I have with GW.

GW charges more for their rules.

?

There are questions that arise in PP rules consistently. Part of this is because the players are new, and part is because of the steady flow of new units. Menoths Choir, for instance, generates questions quite regularly. As does pretty much any ability that denies a model the ability to target or shoot at another model, and most Warcasters feats And these are units/models that have been around for quite a long time.

GW used to have forums. The posting base was so venomous and vitriolic that GW decided to shut them down. PP is lucky enough that their posting base isn't as full of hate as GW's was (yet).

Ssilmath
14-02-2014, 03:26
Honestly Nerzhul I think you're glossing over the flaws that other game systems have. PP has glaring inter and intra faction balance problems and plenty of dopey rules (Knock down a Warjack in a puddle, it's effectively out of the game. Beasts not so much. You just don't see it as much because not many people play with water terrain.). Battletech had (And with the classic BT revival, has) some dopey rules and a completely broken points system, especially if you bring the Clans into it.

40k is more similar to an RPG in the looseness of the rules, though I do think it's tighter than most of those systems. I think people love to point at the glaring outliers and say "See!? Bad rules!" and like to ignore examples from other systems. The biggest difference I can see is that GW has stopped being Johnny on the spot with FAQ's, and I don't blame them after the incredibly negative response they got for doing so.

NerZuhl
14-02-2014, 03:29
There are questions that arise in PP rules consistently. Part of this is because the players are new, and part is because of the steady flow of new units. Menoths Choir, for instance, generates questions quite regularly. As does pretty much any ability that denies a model the ability to target or shoot at another model. And these are units/models that have been around for quite a long time.

GW used to have forums. The posting base was so venomous and vitriolic that GW decided to shut them down. PP is lucky enough that their posting base isn't as full of hate as GW's was (yet).

Aren't those rule questions for PP answered in FAQs though? New players are generally ignorant of FAQs which is understandable.

GW couldn't into public relations, hence they shut down their forums. I mean look at WoW forums and how vitriolic they are, yet Blizzard doesn't close them down. GW just couldn't be bothered to hire a competent public relations forum manager. And there is always a source of hate for it to start, it doesn't just spontaneously generate.

Ssilmath
14-02-2014, 03:31
Aren't those rule questions for PP answered in FAQs though? New players are generally ignorant of FAQs which is understandable.

Not regularly. Most of the questions asked there may be answered but many are not put into FAQ's. If you want an answer, you go searching through the Rules forum. There's also some hazy area as to whether a ruling given in that forum is binding or not, or at least was when I played.

NerZuhl
14-02-2014, 03:32
Honestly Nerzhul I think you're glossing over the flaws that other game systems have. PP has glaring inter and intra faction balance problems and plenty of dopey rules (Knock down a Warjack in a puddle, it's effectively out of the game. Beasts not so much. You just don't see it as much because not many people play with water terrain.). Battletech had (And with the classic BT revival, has) some dopey rules and a completely broken points system, especially if you bring the Clans into it.

40k is more similar to an RPG in the looseness of the rules, though I do think it's tighter than most of those systems. I think people love to point at the glaring outliers and say "See!? Bad rules!" and like to ignore examples from other systems. The biggest difference I can see is that GW has stopped being Johnny on the spot with FAQ's, and I don't blame them after the incredibly negative response they got for doing so.
Actually, I avoid speaking to balance, because as I said before it isn't something that is achieved often or for any length of time. I wasn't familiar enough with BT to speak to it, so I avoided it as an example.

FFG RPG for Warhammer is a tighter rule set than the miniature game (in my opinion) and has more responsiveness to complaints. No one has claimed that other systems don't suffer from the same problems, it is how the companies are reacting to it that makes the world of difference. Other companies make attempts to address issues. GW lets things rot on the vine. Also, GW charges more money for their product as well.

Ssilmath
14-02-2014, 03:36
GW lets things rot on the vine.

I've tried to point out one reason why. The overall reaction was very bitter and negative even when they had regular FAQ's, and basically changed from "They never FAQ" to "They can't do it right in the first place."


Also, GW charges more money for their product as well.

That's very debatable, and kind of rests on what you consider is 'required' spending and what you are comparing it to.

NerZuhl
14-02-2014, 03:42
I've tried to point out one reason why. The overall reaction was very bitter and negative even when they had regular FAQ's, and basically changed from "They never FAQ" to "They can't do it right in the first place."

That's very debatable, and kind of rests on what you consider is 'required' spending and what you are comparing it to.
Burning Chariot has been rotting for a long time now.

Actually I don't believe cost for rules is actually that debatable.
Infinity = Free
Malifaux = (I believe) 35USD (unit rules are provided for free with each model)
Warmarchine = 30USD (and I believe they use unit cards as well, but could be wrong on this)
FFG Dark Heresy RPG = 50 USD
40k = 75 USD Core Rules 33 USD Codex
Fantasy = 75USD Core 30 USD Army Book

That looks to be not that debatable.

wanderingblade
14-02-2014, 03:42
Nobodies saying that tight rulesets are for tournament gamers only. What we're saying is that tight rulesets just do not exist. Every tabletop game out there has issues, some addressed faster than others, and some that continue for quite a long while. A quick jaunt over to the PP rules forums shows that there are PLENTY of rules questions, and even a few debates about what some rules actually mean and how some rules interact with each other. The ONLY game I've ever seen that had a clean, nearly question-free release was FFGs X-Wing. And now that more models are being released, guess what happens.... Questions start to arise, and FAQs are required.

To echo the two gentlemen above to an extent -

I use tight comparatively. Flawless rules sets do not exist, agreed, but some are tighter than others. Some are better worded to begin with, some have a better response time from the authors and so on. GW don't do too well here.

More to the point, I do get the feeling that people are saying that tight (or less loose) rulesets are for tournament gamers only. Or, perhaps more accurately, that only tournament gamers need them. That the game would be fine if people stopped stretching things as far they would go. That tightening things up would be mostly for the benefit of the tournament gamers.

That's not just from reading this thread btw, it's from reading a lot of places.

Kakapo42
14-02-2014, 03:50
Or, perhaps more accurately, that only tournament gamers need them. That the game would be fine if people stopped stretching things as far they would go. That tightening things up would be mostly for the benefit of the tournament gamers.

Well, to be fair, that's sort of true. 'non-competitive' players don't really need tighter rules. Having tighter rules might not necessarily be bad for them, and it might have positive effects, but for them it is not essential. Tighter rules could benefit them, it might even be that they would or should, but as demonstrated by some commenters it's not the end of the world for 'non-competitive' players if they don't have them.

Regarding the pricing for GW's rules publications, they do often feature fairly extensive background and hobby sections as well, perhaps that's a factor in the price?

Ssilmath
14-02-2014, 03:51
That looks to be not that debatable.

You also have to consider content. When you are buying the book, you are buying more than rules. The 40k rulebook is much larger and has more content than the Warmachine rulebook. Whether it is worth it or not is entirely up to the consumer.

wanderingblade
14-02-2014, 03:58
Well, to be fair, that's sort of true. 'non-competitive' players don't really need tighter rules. Having tighter rules might not necessarily be bad for them, and it might have positive effects, but for them it is not essential. Tighter rules could benefit them, it might even be that they would or should, but as demonstrated by some commenters it's not the end of the world for 'non-competitive' players if they don't have them.

Regarding the pricing for GW's rules publications, they do often feature fairly extensive background and hobby sections as well, perhaps that's a factor in the price?

Ah well, if it's need, then I'm not sure that competitive players need them either. I am open to correction on that score mind, I don't know/talk to many competitive gamers. But there seems to be plenty out there going about their business reasonably happily.

NerZuhl
14-02-2014, 04:35
You also have to consider content. When you are buying the book, you are buying more than rules. The 40k rulebook is much larger and has more content than the Warmachine rulebook. Whether it is worth it or not is entirely up to the consumer.
Which is why I included the price of an RPG book. Which delivers a significant amount of rules and fluff. Not to mention is as high a production value. I can also point to Dataslates and Tomes as further examples of a premium price for rules.

Grand Master Azrael
14-02-2014, 07:14
Are you really saying current GW rulesets are well written and worth the value attached to them?
They are worth it

Gingerwerewolf
14-02-2014, 07:57
They used to have their own forums but closed them down when people asked them to fix legitimate problems. Now if GW managed to moderate their own craptastic rules I think that would certainly ease some of the moaning.

No they didnt - the closed them down due to the vitriol and hatred that the Internet Spawned because they were not moderated properly. People were offensive and nasty (just like here) and GW didnt know how to handle that.

There is an old adage in England: "If you are not mature enough to use them properly, you can't have nice things" - And that was the stand that GW took. If you want to remember it as the gamers being the hard done by party feel free.

But thats not true.

NerZuhl
14-02-2014, 08:01
No they didnt - the closed them down due to the vitriol and hatred that the Internet Spawned because they were not moderated properly. People were offensive and nasty (just like here) and GW didnt know how to handle that.

There is an old adage in England: "If you are not mature enough to use them properly, you can't have nice things" - And that was the stand that GW took. If you want to remember it as the gamers being the hard done by party feel free.

But thats not true.
Wait....you're blaming the community for GW pulling their own forums? I am really asking, cause that is what I understood from your post. Want to be sure I am not misunderstanding.

lantzkev
14-02-2014, 08:03
Wait....you're blaming the community for GW pulling their own forums? I am really asking, cause that is what I understood from your post. Want to be sure I am not misunderstanding.

seemed pretty clear he was saying GW couldn't deal with fanboi nerd rage and rather than spend manpower moderating, just axed the forums in response.

Gingerwerewolf
14-02-2014, 08:30
seemed pretty clear he was saying GW couldn't deal with fanboi nerd rage and rather than spend manpower moderating, just axed the forums in response.

This is exactly what Im saying

Bugaboo
14-02-2014, 08:47
ITT, same thing seen in a whole lot of other threads.

On the one hand, I agree that this thread serves very little purpose given as telling people off behind the mask of anonymity is hardly much better than being one of the rage monkies acting like GW are the debil.

On the other, I can certainly agree that a vitriolic attitude expressed on the internet simply helps add onto the problems people have on the first place.

Having not been one to explore the GW forums much in the past, I cannot confirm or deny the veracity of the claim that the community at large shot itself in the foot by being less than constructive in it's criticism on the official boards of the company, but if it is true, is anyone really silly enough to be surprised?

Picture this scenario. I invite some people to a dinner party at my home, to enjoy a meal prepared by me. But, alas, my culinary talents are not on par with Jamie Oliver. One of the guests takes one bite of the meal and spits it in my face screaming "OH MY GOAD, WHAT A WASTE OF MY TIME! YOU CAN'T COOK WORTH CRAP, AND YOU INVITE US HERE TO CRAM YOUR FILTH DOWN OUR THROATS!? KILL YOURSELF, YOU'RE THE WORST COOK SINCE GOLLUM!"

This is then followed by others crowing their discontent, and rather than offering any sage advice on how I might improve, they simply insist that to have sinned once is enough to condemn me for life. Yeah, I think I would be real happy about inviting them round in future to enjoy my cooking, because such a friendly attitude, such constructive criticism, really helps me keep the faith.

I already know the counter argument "But you're not charging them to show up to a dinner party, lawl!", and I admit that I am too sick and uncaring to think up anything better, but I think my point is fairly clear.

Though i will say one thing to agree with those who have an issue. A day 1 FAQ correcting such things as missing wargear, stats, etc, is kinda silly, as it is a clear indication that there is very little proofreading going on.

TL;DR, GW are far from perfect and are certainly capable of making glaring mistakes the same as many other companies, but I am not WAAC enough to care about how unbalanced some armies are. Also, the internet is why we can't have nice things.

Karak Norn Clansman
14-02-2014, 08:53
I don't think the guard will have a lot of hate.

The next epic rage boil over will be the ork codex. Because people are hoping they will have a way to assault without overwatch and have an OTT build.

If the orks get a power build, the rage will be docile, along the lines of the eldar and tau whining that went on when their release came out. If they lack a power build, it will be tyranid-whine (which is CSM whine in disguise) in disguise. V2.0

You, sir, are wise indeed in the lore of ragewhine. :D


Have you considered that this is because the internet offers anonymity?

When you talk to people in person, there's far more pressure to conform. Also, they will remember what you say and may judge you by it.

What I'm saying is that some of the people who 'just want to play the game and have fun' in public might be a lot more vocal on the internet. Not all of them, obviously, but certainly some.

Possible. I'm about as quiet or vocal about what I like and dislike in real life, on tournaments and so on, as I'm on forums.

NerZuhl
14-02-2014, 09:01
TL;DR, GW are far from perfect and are certainly capable of making glaring mistakes the same as many other companies, but I am not WAAC enough to care about how unbalanced some armies are. Also, the internet is why we can't have nice things.
Bold My Emphasis

That right there, that little bit a bait you added completely tanks your entire post. Implying that anyone that cares about balance is WAAC. That is painfully obvious trolling bait and a perfect example of the hate machine at work.

Edit: Who the hell is saying other companies aren't making mistakes? Please quote someone. Cause this keeps being thrown up here as an argument and I want to know who they are actually speaking to.

Bugaboo
14-02-2014, 09:19
Bold My Emphasis

That right there, that little bit a bait you added completely tanks your entire post. Implying that anyone that cares about balance is WAAC. That is painfully obvious trolling bait and a perfect example of the hate machine at work.

Edit: Who the hell is saying other companies aren't making mistakes? Please quote someone. Cause this keeps being thrown up here as an argument and I want to know who they are actually speaking to.

What hate machine? And if that term alone is all that stood out to you, then you're just looking to be baited, as I have already stated that I think GW are far from free of fault. I dislike some of the lack of attention to certain armies as much as the next guy, but I get by.

Actually, to heck with it, you've been just as trolly with your posts that seem to flat out question people forming their own opinions, rather than accept your own as gospel, so I don't even know why I was about to do a ranty justification of what I meant. You keep on believing that GW are the debil, I shall continue not sharing your opinion.

zoggin-eck
14-02-2014, 09:45
That was just 1998 - 2003 or so.

Wind back the clock one more year and you get people screaming that GW changed the base style for Epic just so they had to buy new models despite the rulebook saying it makes little difference, suggesting you go with what you have.

(OK, lots of the complaints about that game I can understand, even if I didn't agree with them all, but that one was absurd)

Vipoid
14-02-2014, 09:47
Picture this scenario. I invite some people to a dinner party at my home, to enjoy a meal prepared by me. But, alas, my culinary talents are not on par with Jamie Oliver. One of the guests takes one bite of the meal and spits it in my face screaming "OH MY GOAD, WHAT A WASTE OF MY TIME! YOU CAN'T COOK WORTH CRAP, AND YOU INVITE US HERE TO CRAM YOUR FILTH DOWN OUR THROATS!? KILL YOURSELF, YOU'RE THE WORST COOK SINCE GOLLUM!"

That would be an excellent analogy, if it bore the slightest resemblance to the matter at hand.

If I might suggest a different analogy:

'You decide to treat yourself to an expensive restaurant, and are quickly served a delightfully-presented meal. Sadly, the wine-list is in Japanese and none of the waiters can translate it, but you're so thrilled with the beauty of your food that you barely notice. However, you then taste the food and find that the potatoes are overcooked, the meat is undercooked and they apparently forgot to include the peas your ordered. You think this is rather a shame, because the restaurant is otherwise a nice place and the waiters are very friendly. Well, perhaps you could speak with the chef or manager, and politely mention that a couple of items were over-/under-cooked, and that the peas are missing. But, when you ask to speak to the manager, he immediately locks himself in the kitchen and bars the door. Perplexed, you ask one of the waiters if he could pass on your comments to the chef, yet he steadfastly refuses - saying that the restaurant operates under a strict no-customer-feedback policy.

Feeling dejected, you reluctantly pay your bill and walk home. Then, you remember that the restaurant is part of a chain of restaurants. Well, this one might have an odd policy regarding feedback - but perhaps you could send your comments to one of the overall managers instead. However, after spending half an hour ploughing through their ancient website you eventually come to the conclusion that it would be easier to give feedback to the Queen. So, now feeling rather irritated, you instead find a forum that discusses restaurants in general; and decide you may as well post your comments there. After all, even if the restaurant chain is going to turn a deaf ear to feedback, at least others will know what they're in for when they go there. Although, you quickly find that you're far from the only one who was served badly-cooked food there. Many others were equally disappointed with the food, although you soon realise that it was the absence of any way to give feedback to the restaurant that really frustrated them. Oddly though, many of the posters still frequent those restaurants - in the vain hope that the food will one day improve, despite the chefs never hearing what their customers like or dislike about it.'

NerZuhl
14-02-2014, 09:54
What hate machine? And if that term alone is all that stood out to you, then you're just looking to be baited, as I have already stated that I think GW are far from free of fault. I dislike some of the lack of attention to certain armies as much as the next guy, but I get by.

Actually, to heck with it, you've been just as trolly with your posts that seem to flat out question people forming their own opinions, rather than accept your own as gospel, so I don't even know why I was about to do a ranty justification of what I meant. You keep on believing that GW are the debil, I shall continue not sharing your opinion.
I have engaged people in debate here. But I haven't thrown out blanket statements like "I am not WAAC enough to care about how unbalanced some armies are". And of course I picked up on it, you put it in your Summary of your post. As if to state this is the point you are trying to make. The term isn't the problem, it is your application of it and the implication that seeking balance makes a person WAAC nut. It would be akin to me saying "I am not enough of a fluff nut apologist to look past GWs poor rule writing" (which I am not actually saying) Furthermore you color coded a statement to which I challenged and you avoided responding to, choosing instead to paint me as some fanatic GW hater.

I happily engage people in debate over opinions and try to counter. To which they have countered back, many with some excellent arguments that I have had to capitulate to. (several have shut me up completely) Some have flat out just stated their belief in response to my questions and I have not attacked them for doing so. (Since there is no counter point to be made)

Hate Machine is in reference to adding quips and comments to posts in an effort to spur further rage. I am not immune to this and is how much of the internet works. I chose your bait as a perfect example of it in action. If you wish, feel free to quote some of my posts as reference for bait if you wish.

duffybear1988
14-02-2014, 09:55
No they didnt - the closed them down due to the vitriol and hatred that the Internet Spawned because they were not moderated properly. People were offensive and nasty (just like here) and GW didnt know how to handle that.

There is an old adage in England: "If you are not mature enough to use them properly, you can't have nice things" - And that was the stand that GW took. If you want to remember it as the gamers being the hard done by party feel free.

But thats not true.

So instead of treating the sickness they lopped the head off the patient and denied it was ever a problem. Then when the disease spread to others they continued to deny it's existence...

Most people started by making legitimate points about what needed changing or fixing. For the most part at first GW went along with some of these ideas. Then over time they stopped giving a damn and started ignoring the fanbase altogether. When people got more vocal about this indifference the GW supporters chirped in and it broke into a flame war. Now instead of examining just why such a split occurred GW axed the forums as they didn't want people questioning the GW mindset on their forums - it's the exact same thing they did with their Facebook account years later!

GW never took "If you are not mature enough to use them properly, you can't have nice things" as their stance. It was more like "How dare you question GW! GW are the best! Buy a giant! Buy 2!"

Back then I used to defend GW as I believed that they were going through a change and would come out at the end with a much clearer concise and well structured set of rules. Years later and the opposite has happened. GW is a bloated aging beast that's on it's last legs. Put it down.

Bugaboo
14-02-2014, 10:15
That would be an excellent analogy, if it bore the slightest resemblance to the matter at hand.

If I might suggest a different analogy:

'You decide to treat yourself to an expensive restaurant, and are quickly served a delightfully-presented meal. Sadly, the wine-list is in Japanese and none of the waiters can translate it, but you're so thrilled with the beauty of your food that you barely notice. However, you then taste the food and find that the potatoes are overcooked, the meat is undercooked and they apparently forgot to include the peas your ordered. You think this is rather a shame, because the restaurant is otherwise a nice place and the waiters are very friendly. Well, perhaps you could speak with the chef or manager, and politely mention that a couple of items were over-/under-cooked, and that the peas are missing. But, when you ask to speak to the manager, he immediately locks himself in the kitchen and bars the door. Perplexed, you ask one of the waiters if he could pass on your comments to the chef, yet he steadfastly refuses - saying that the restaurant operates under a strict no-customer-feedback policy.

Feeling dejected, you reluctantly pay your bill and walk home. Then, you remember that the restaurant is part of a chain of restaurants. Well, this one might have an odd policy regarding feedback - but perhaps you could send your comments to one of the overall managers instead. However, after spending half an hour ploughing through their ancient website you eventually come to the conclusion that it would be easier to give feedback to the Queen. So, now feeling rather irritated, you instead find a forum that discusses restaurants in general; and decide you may as well post your comments there. After all, even if the restaurant chain is going to turn a deaf ear to feedback, at least others will know what they're in for when they go there. Although, you quickly find that you're far from the only one who was served badly-cooked food there. Many others were equally disappointed with the food, although you soon realise that it was the absence of any way to give feedback to the restaurant that really frustrated them. Oddly though, many of the posters still frequent those restaurants - in the vain hope that the food will one day improve, despite the chefs never hearing what their customers like or dislike about it.'

More accurate in that money changed hands. Less accurate in that the cause for them having implemented such policies is mysteriously absent from your analogy. ;p

It seems to imply they were dbags in the first place, as opposed to responding to what came across as less than constructive criticism in the past.

lantzkev
14-02-2014, 10:21
So instead of treating the sickness they lopped the head off the patient and denied it was ever a problem. Then when the disease spread to others they continued to deny it's existence...

Most people started by making legitimate points about what needed changing or fixing. For the most part at first GW went along with some of these ideas. Then over time they stopped giving a damn and started ignoring the fanbase altogether. When people got more vocal about this indifference the GW supporters chirped in and it broke into a flame war. Now instead of examining just why such a split occurred GW axed the forums as they didn't want people questioning the GW mindset on their forums - it's the exact same thing they did with their Facebook account years later!

GW never took "If you are not mature enough to use them properly, you can't have nice things" as their stance. It was more like "How dare you question GW! GW are the best! Buy a giant! Buy 2!"

Back then I used to defend GW as I believed that they were going through a change and would come out at the end with a much clearer concise and well structured set of rules. Years later and the opposite has happened. GW is a bloated aging beast that's on it's last legs. Put it down.

I've always believed they were a company with their own vision and ideas. Chief among them keeping their employees employed. There are few businesses except perhaps comcast that I believe don't keep their customers in mind. GW is far from a monopoly situation, providing a critical aspect of life that no one else can... etc. they will and do pay attention to their customers and have the long term in mind.

To think anything they do is to deliberately disenfranchise their customers, is a level of naivety I have never been shocked to find on the internet.

ColShaw
14-02-2014, 10:54
I looked into this topic, somewhat against my better judgment, and I have a few thoughts on conflict in general. Warning: long post incoming. This is what happens when insomnia meets the internet. :)

I work in a customer service environment. Every day I take phone calls, many of them from people who are confused, upset, or angry. Some of them assume that the company I work for is actively out to get them; some of them assume the company is trying to do right by them, but they don't understand what's going on. Some assume it's their own fault and start by apologizing. It really does come from all over the map.

The thing is, it's my job to help all these people. What their assumptions are going in has a lot to do with how I'll handle their questions and complaints. If they come in angry, I can't get angry in return, because A) I'd get fired; and B) it wouldn't help the situation. Instead, I try very hard to practice "de-escalation."

De-escalating a conflict is hard. It gets harder the longer and more bitterly a conflict is going on. No one wants to appear weak and get stepped on by being the first to make a concession, or even by being more polite than one's adversary. But that is how de-escalation works.

My wife and I are what we call "emotional mirrors". It's really easy for us, when once we're in a disagreement, to see it spiral out of control. Because I see that she's upset, I get upset in return. Then she reflects that back at me, and so on, and we're off to the races. Fortunately, she's also one of the most self-aware people I know, and that's led to us consciously trying to correct this tendency. To de-escalate requires one of us to say, "Look, we're both getting upset here. I'm sorry for the part I've played in it. Here's how I feel..."

Doing this on the 'net, with people we don't know in real life, is even harder. Tone is hard to read in posts, except when it's so blatantly hostile it's impossible to ignore. We have language barriers on an international forum. Once personal accusations start getting thrown around, it's difficult not to respond in kind.

If the original poster is serious about his request that we, as a community, tone down the anger, that's a potentially excellent idea. Unfortunately, the post was not phrased in a manner conducive to de-escalation; quite the contrary. To de-escalate, when I'm talking to an angry caller at my job, I can't counter with anything that might come across as insulting, condescending, or threatening. I can't label. I can't say that he/she is "whining", "raging", or any word I think he/she might find emotionally loaded, because that would defeat my purpose, which is to calm things down and have a civil conversation. Heck, I can't even say "Calm down," because many people find that to be condescending, and not affirming that they are upset.

I want to suggest that the way to counter "nerd-rage", or whatever counterproductive label we want to put on those who disagree with us, is by being constructive. Step away from flame-wars. This is our hobby, folks. This is what we do for fun. Believe me, I understand a lot of the anger; I feel a lot of it myself, and I've been posting, perhaps more than I should, in negative ways and on negative topics. So I'm going to try to do better, and I challenge all of us to do the same.

Express how we're feeling, absolutely. This is a discussion forum, after all! :) But surely we can be civil, whichever side of the debate we're on at any given moment. And honestly, most of us have been on both sides at one time or another.

I've heard it said that hatred is dangerous, because it makes the one who hates emotionally dependent upon that which they despise. Whether justified or not, hate and anger... well, they lead to the Dark Side. ;) And that holds equally true for people who hate haters, ironically enough.

TL;DR: To the OP, in my opinion, the best way to counter negativity is with positivity, rather than with additional negativity. Post about things you're enthusiastic or excited about.

Vipoid
14-02-2014, 11:02
More accurate in that money changed hands. Less accurate in that the cause for them having implemented such policies is mysteriously absent from your analogy.

What, you mean their inability to moderate their own forums? :eyebrows:


It seems to imply they were dbags in the first place, as opposed to responding to what came across as less than constructive criticism in the past.

You seem to assume that because some people posted abusive comments, no one else could possibly have had constructive criticism. The fact that some people posted unpleasantness on the GW forum should have been a reason to ban those members and instigate a zero-tolerance policy with regard to abusive posts. Once most of the offenders were banned, the forum probably would have quieted down. Instead, they just removed their entire forum - thus alienating the majority of their community (i.e. the ones who weren't posting abusive stuff), and also causing any irritation to once again build up.

In any case, how exactly did you imagine me representing this in my analogy? Should the waiter have said "Well, the last time we allowed feedback, it was very negative. So, the chef did the only thing he could think of - he cut his own ears off with a meat cleaver."? ;)


Also, if we're critiquing each others analogies, here are the inaccuracies in yours:

1) It assumes that the people being invited are friends, colleagues or others that you know in person. This is certainly not the case with GW.

2) The dinner you're providing is free. If GW provided free rulesets, they'd probably receive a lot less criticism over them. But, that isn't the case - people pay for those rulesets and hence have a right to expect the quality of those rules to reflect their high price. This already kills your analogy dead, because it completely changes the expectations.

3) The person ranting at you did so in person - that's very different to ranting on a forum. Especially since the people you're most likely to offend are also the ones least likely to read your rant. Also, as per #1, he is also ranting at a friend, colleague or the like - which is completely different to ranting (from afar) at a company and at people you've never met.

4) The person in your analogy was just ranting and being rude. This is incredibly insulting and dismissive to the many of us who do not rant, but instead take the time to politely explain specific problems with a book or unit.

Valkyrie Sky
14-02-2014, 11:33
That would be an excellent analogy, if it bore the slightest resemblance to the matter at hand.

If I might suggest a different analogy:

'You decide to treat yourself to an expensive restaurant, and are quickly served a delightfully-presented meal. Sadly, the wine-list is in Japanese and none of the waiters can translate it, but you're so thrilled with the beauty of your food that you barely notice. However, you then taste the food and find that the potatoes are overcooked, the meat is undercooked and they apparently forgot to include the peas your ordered. You think this is rather a shame, because the restaurant is otherwise a nice place and the waiters are very friendly. Well, perhaps you could speak with the chef or manager, and politely mention that a couple of items were over-/under-cooked, and that the peas are missing. But, when you ask to speak to the manager, he immediately locks himself in the kitchen and bars the door. Perplexed, you ask one of the waiters if he could pass on your comments to the chef, yet he steadfastly refuses - saying that the restaurant operates under a strict no-customer-feedback policy.

Feeling dejected, you reluctantly pay your bill and walk home. Then, you remember that the restaurant is part of a chain of restaurants. Well, this one might have an odd policy regarding feedback - but perhaps you could send your comments to one of the overall managers instead. However, after spending half an hour ploughing through their ancient website you eventually come to the conclusion that it would be easier to give feedback to the Queen. So, now feeling rather irritated, you instead find a forum that discusses restaurants in general; and decide you may as well post your comments there. After all, even if the restaurant chain is going to turn a deaf ear to feedback, at least others will know what they're in for when they go there. Although, you quickly find that you're far from the only one who was served badly-cooked food there. Many others were equally disappointed with the food, although you soon realise that it was the absence of any way to give feedback to the restaurant that really frustrated them. Oddly though, many of the posters still frequent those restaurants - in the vain hope that the food will one day improve, despite the chefs never hearing what their customers like or dislike about it.'

*slow clap

That sir, is spot on, nailed the essence of the whole issue.

@Bugaboo thanks for your analogy, it actually helped me further understand how fans think. Though honestly it raised another puzzle-some question...
Why do you treat GW as if they were doing it for free? (rulebook, but mainly codice) GW is far from free... infact we pay premium prices should we not get something similar in quality in return?

Bugaboo
14-02-2014, 11:37
What, you mean their inability to moderate their own forums? :eyebrows:

A point I can certainly agree with, but while I do make assumptions, I am not going to assume they simply do not care. Though, for all I know, GW could hire trolls and trolls alone and they all feed off the tears of baaaw which flow freely through the tubes of the internet. So they come here to watch it, a place where they are under no obligation to respond. Maybe that's what they're doing, yeah...


You seem to assume that because some people posted abusive comments, no one else could possibly have had constructive criticism. The fact that some people posted unpleasantness on the GW forum should have been a reason to ban those members and instigate a zero-tolerance policy with regard to abusive posts. Once most of the offenders were banned, the forum probably would have quieted down. Instead, they just removed their entire forum - thus alienating the majority of their community (i.e. the ones who weren't posting abusive stuff), and also causing any irritation to once again build up.

Yeah, site policies, bannings and whatnot have done really well in keeping sites free of trolling and negativity.


In any case, how exactly did you imagine me representing this in my analogy? Should the waiter have said "Well, the last time we allowed feedback, it was very negative. So, the chef did the only thing he could think of - he cut his own ears off with a meat cleaver."? ;)


Also, if we're critiquing each others analogies, here are the inaccuracies in yours:

1) It assumes that the people being invited are friends, colleagues or others that you know in person. This is certainly not the case with GW.

2) The dinner you're providing is free. If GW provided free rulesets, they'd probably receive a lot less criticism over them. But, that isn't the case - people pay for those rulesets and hence have a right to expect the quality of those rules to reflect their high price. This already kills your analogy dead, because it completely changes the expectations.

3) The person ranting at you did so in person - that's very different to ranting on a forum. Especially since the people you're most likely to offend are also the ones least likely to read your rant. Also, as per #1, he is also ranting at a friend, colleague or the like - which is completely different to ranting (from afar) at a company and at people you've never met.

4) The person in your analogy was just ranting and being rude. This is incredibly insulting and dismissive to the many of us who do not rant, but instead take the time to politely explain specific problems with a book or unit.

I thought I was clear in expressing my ability to find the faults within my own analogy, but thanks for spelling it out for me. :D

Now, that said, all of this forum stuff is why I couldn't give dual fecal lumps. If I have problems with a game system, then I'll simply quit that system (like i did for about 5 or so years) and move on. I find I get more enjoyment from RPG games as a medium for playing make believe, and maybe that's why I am not as passionate about how GW does things as some.

I have my complaints, and some of them are shared by others on here, but for the most part I keep them quiet. Because there's little point in coming here, a place where you'll see more bile than positivity, and thinking that adding my fuel to the flames will garner anymore result than if I simply sit quietly, take the sub par product on board, and say "Thank you, sir, can I have another?"

I really hope that GW actually does fix a few things, I really do (like not making entire armies/modelling options/units, etc. obsolete), but till such a time, I am simply going to collect whatever I think looks cool, am willing to spend money on, or otherwise interested in.

You all have your right to complain, constructive or not, but there are just some points I am not going to agree with. And so far, I don't think I have praised GW, simply offered speculation as t why feedback isn't as accepted as it once was.

Also, I saw one response to feedback (hardly constructive feedback, but still) from one guy with the uh... Fanatic magazine, I think it was, and I have to say that it showed that GW are just as human as it's customers. Read: Just as capable of being unpleasant in response to unpleasantness.

Valkyrie Sky
14-02-2014, 11:54
@Bugaboo

There are certain patterns that I have observed throughout whom you would consider a GW hater, which includes me... sorry.
However you will eventually notice many of us "haters" are long time supporters of GW. We aren't fresh new fanboys with religious-like fanatical enthusiasm for the hobby... oblivious to all the faults like a "hobby virgin". (note Im not calling anyone a virgin, but rather a person that have never been exposed
to painting, modelling, war-gaming )
The quintessence is, we have experienced the glorious past of GW, we know what they were once capable of, and we want that back.
We liked GW and still hoped for deliverance, we also aren't the type to jump boats right off the bat to another company when something goes wrong.

We hate, because we loved.

duffybear1988
14-02-2014, 11:58
@Bugaboo

There are certain patterns that I have observed throughout whom you would consider a GW hater, which includes me... sorry.
However you will eventually notice many of us "haters" are long time supporters of GW. We aren't fresh new fanboys with fanatical enthusiasm for the hobby...
The quintessence is, we have experienced the glorious past of GW, we know what they were once capable of, and we want that back.
We liked GW and still hoped for deliverance, we also aren't the type to jump boats righ off the bat when something goes wrong.

We hate, because we loved.

Sums me up.

Vipoid
14-02-2014, 11:59
Yeah, site policies, bannings and whatnot have done really well in keeping sites free of trolling and negativity.

Oh, I'm not saying that those things would have ceased to exist on the GW forums - just that they're likely to diminish after a while.

In addition, negativity is a dubious word to use because its meaning seems somewhat subjective. Is all criticism negative, even when offered in a polite and constructive way?


Now, that said, all of this forum stuff is why I couldn't give dual fecal lumps. If I have problems with a game system, then I'll simply quit that system (like i did for about 5 or so years) and move on. I find I get more enjoyment from RPG games as a medium for playing make believe, and maybe that's why I am not as passionate about how GW does things as some.

That's one way of looking at it. However, as an example, if someone spends a lot of money on a specific army - only for the next book to take the army in a different direction (one they didn't want or ask for), I can understand how that would be unpleasant. After all, you've put a lot of money into their product - just for them to take the fun out of using it. In this case, since they certainly can't complain to GW, they might simply vent their frustrations on forums like this one.

Also, just quitting the game might not always be that easy. e.g., in the above example, the new book might have diminished your experience with the game - but if your friends are satisfied with their books, then they'll be more than a little reluctant to quit the game as well. To put it another way, you can easily quit the game - but that doesn't mean your friends will follow you to another game system or the like.

The third possibility is that people might like GW games in terms of the fluff or models - they want to keep playing, but are constantly disappointed with the rules. These people might really like the opportunity to suggest fixes and the like to GW. However, since GW lack their own forum, the best that these people can do is post them on another forum - either to see what others think of their proposed changes, or simply in the vain hope that one of the GW will happen across them.



And so far, I don't think I have praised GW, simply offered speculation as t why feedback isn't as accepted as it once was.

Well, your analogy did imply that they were doing us a favour (giving something away for free), and that any anger against them is just incoherent rage (rather than being coherent, specific and (in many cases) polite). :p

Bugaboo
14-02-2014, 11:59
@Bugaboo

There are certain patterns that I have observed throughout whom you would consider a GW hater, which includes me... sorry.
However you will eventually notice many of us "haters" are long time supporters of GW. We aren't fresh new fanboys with fanatical enthusiasm for the hobby...
The quintessence is, we have experienced the glorious past of GW, we know what they were once capable of, and we want that back.
We liked GW and still hoped for deliverance, we also aren't the type to jump boats righ off the bat when something goes wrong.

We hate, because we loved.

If I was talking about Necromunda on here, trust me, I would be ready and willing to be a cog in the "hate machine". Though it's be pointed out to me by folks there is a far better alternative in the community made version of the game. I'm just not sold on the idea on account of it's medium. :s

Valkyrie Sky
14-02-2014, 12:25
Another observance I made from the Tyranid thread, I saw fans would go to great length to
totally ignore or dismiss detailed analysis on codex flaws while trying to interject with anecdotal evidence of "it really doesnt suck cuz i said so".

This behavior is important to note as its no different than say, a boy's best friend just exposed the truth of his new cute girlfriend
is actually cheating on him with 3 other guys. In comparison, the boy would throw all the facts and logic out the window and focus his rage
on the person delivering the news. Its safe to say that, enthusiastic new fans often have such fervor in GW that they will totally ignore the analysis;
and instead,home in any source that would taint or threaten their belief of a pure perfect GW...

Humans, different subject/ situation, all same reaction. ;)

totgeboren
14-02-2014, 12:26
That would be an excellent analogy, if it bore the slightest resemblance to the matter at hand.

If I might suggest a different analogy:

'You decide to treat yourself to an expensive restaurant, and are quickly served a delightfully-presented meal. Sadly, the wine-list is in Japanese and none of the waiters can translate it, but you're so thrilled with the beauty of your food that you barely notice. However, you then taste the food and find that the potatoes are overcooked, the meat is undercooked and they apparently forgot to include the peas your ordered. You think this is rather a shame, because the restaurant is otherwise a nice place and the waiters are very friendly. Well, perhaps you could speak with the chef or manager, and politely mention that a couple of items were over-/under-cooked, and that the peas are missing. But, when you ask to speak to the manager, he immediately locks himself in the kitchen and bars the door. Perplexed, you ask one of the waiters if he could pass on your comments to the chef, yet he steadfastly refuses - saying that the restaurant operates under a strict no-customer-feedback policy.

Feeling dejected, you reluctantly pay your bill and walk home. Then, you remember that the restaurant is part of a chain of restaurants. Well, this one might have an odd policy regarding feedback - but perhaps you could send your comments to one of the overall managers instead. However, after spending half an hour ploughing through their ancient website you eventually come to the conclusion that it would be easier to give feedback to the Queen. So, now feeling rather irritated, you instead find a forum that discusses restaurants in general; and decide you may as well post your comments there. After all, even if the restaurant chain is going to turn a deaf ear to feedback, at least others will know what they're in for when they go there. Although, you quickly find that you're far from the only one who was served badly-cooked food there. Many others were equally disappointed with the food, although you soon realise that it was the absence of any way to give feedback to the restaurant that really frustrated them. Oddly though, many of the posters still frequent those restaurants - in the vain hope that the food will one day improve, despite the chefs never hearing what their customers like or dislike about it.'

Awesome analogy, even though it is missing the 'why'. But it hits the nail on the head in that what really frustrates people is the no-feedback-policy GW uses.
I'm not expecting a perfect, flawless product from GW by any means, but I would definitely appreciate a means of even giving feedback. Just yesterday I sent a mail to FW explaining that the current rules for the Warkopta makes it more or less unusable in 6ed, I explained why, and I gave a suggestion for a simple fix. A few hour later I got a response that was written by a real person (I think), and I am now a happy customer even though I'm still stuck with a bad product.

Kahadras
14-02-2014, 12:28
I'd say there's a lot of knee-jerking when it comes to some complaining (I remember being assured by people that the Banner of the World Dragon would mean that the High Elves would be dominating tournaments for the forseeable future). I do feel that there are plenty of valid complaints (especialy when it comes to GW pricing). I'd also point out that places like Warseer do provide a place where people can vent their frustrations. We can have a rough game against a friend, smile, shake hands, go home and stick a post on Warseer about how much we hate that @#*!^ing Riptide.

IcedCrow
14-02-2014, 12:45
The next wall of nerd rage is on the horizon. Imperial Knights that have an AV value instead of a T value... its already beginning lol

Valkyrie Sky
14-02-2014, 12:53
The next wall of nerd rage is on the horizon. Imperial Knights that have an AV value instead of a T value... its already beginning lol
Nah, kindly stop trying to start crap.

Vipoid
14-02-2014, 12:55
The next wall of nerd rage is on the horizon.

Is it jock-rage when people get angry at a football team, or at some other sporting event?


Imperial Knights that have an AV value instead of a T value

What are Imperial Knights?

IcedCrow
14-02-2014, 12:58
Is it jock-rage when people get angry at a football team, or at some other sporting event?



What are Imperial Knights?

Sports rage is equally fun though we usually just call that rage. I don't know why its different from nerd-rage. It is definitely similar to political rants or Obama rage. That would be a good topic for a thread somewhere though.

Imperial Knights are the new mini-titans coming out with the new IG codex. There are several threads that have cropped up (on BOLS, in the rumor discussion thread here, and on facebook) where there is a lot of commentary about how the new model is awesome looking, but $160 for a model that has an AV rating instead of T that will be glanced to death in turn 1 is not going to happen and that if it doesn't have a T rating, then it cant compete against riptides and wraithknights and is therefore useless. A couple of pot shots at the GW designers for being lazy and inept. You know... typical fare.

Scammel
14-02-2014, 13:11
I'd say there's a lot of knee-jerking when it comes to some complaining (I remember being assured by people that the Banner of the World Dragon would mean that the High Elves would be dominating tournaments for the forseeable future). I do feel that there are plenty of valid complaints (especialy when it comes to GW pricing). I'd also point out that places like Warseer do provide a place where people can vent their frustrations. We can have a rough game against a friend, smile, shake hands, go home and stick a post on Warseer about how much we hate that @#*!^ing Riptide.

BotWD is and will continue to be the single biggest mistake of 8th for the foreseeable future. Hosing a single army in the game in the manner it does is the absolute nadir of game design.

Bugaboo
14-02-2014, 13:47
Another observance I made from the Tyranid thread, I saw fans would go to great length to
totally ignore or dismiss detailed analysis on codex flaws while trying to interject with anecdotal evidence of "it really doesnt suck cuz i said so".

This behavior is important to note as its no different than say, a boy's best friend just exposed the truth of his new cute girlfriend
is actually cheating on him with 3 other guys. In comparison, the boy would throw all the facts and logic out the window and focus his rage
on the person delivering the news. Its safe to say that, enthusiastic new fans often have such fervor in GW that they will totally ignore the analysis;
and instead,home in any source that would taint or threaten their belief of a pure perfect GW...

Humans, different subject/ situation, all same reaction. ;)

I have my issues with Tyranids. Might not be the same as everyone else, mind. Where's the extensive adaptation opportunities from previous editions? Nowhere from a gaming standpoint, but if I was pure fluff and no play, I wouldn't care. But since i would like mechanics to represent fluff, I care.

Where's the plastic Lictor/Death Leaper dual kit? Where's the plastic Bio/Pyrovore dual kit? Where's the plastic Zoanthrope/Veno- And so on. I have seen enough complaints about Finecrap (which I find more valid, given rules change, crappy models don't) to know I'll never touch the stuff.

Also, those buggers teased the grognard in me with hints at Colossus and then ditched the premise completely. :P

I'm just kinda quiet about it, because I'm either A: Hopeful the Finecast issue will be fixed (I know I know, hope is the harbinger of despair. >.>), or B: More focused on CSM at this point to concentrate on the race which attracted me to 40k in the first place.

Denny
14-02-2014, 13:52
We hate, because we loved.

I've been playing GW games for about twenty years. I've never loved or hated the company in that time.
Love I reserve for my wife, my family and my friends.
Hate . . . I don't know if I've ever hated anyone I've known in real life. Nobody has wronged me badly enough.

Sorry dude, I'm not meaning to attack you, I just get irritated by the way some people (especially on the 'net) like throwing the word about as if it makes them better than other people who choose not to hate. Hate should never be worn as a badge of honour.

Being a hater is not a good thing. Especially not for the hater.

Surgency
14-02-2014, 13:58
Another observance I made from the Tyranid thread, I saw fans would go to great length to
totally ignore or dismiss detailed analysis on codex flaws while trying to interject with anecdotal evidence of "it really doesnt suck cuz i said so".

You must have overlooked the parts where fans of the codex acknowledged it had problems. You also must have missed where the detractors completely ignored the positives, insulted the pro-codex crowd, and ignored most any semblance of reasonable discussion.

That really just goes right back to the negative getting more negative, while the positive get called fanbois and get compared to used/abused wives/girlfriends.


Sorry dude, I'm not meaning to attack you, I just get irritated by the way some people (especially on the 'net) like throwing the word about as if it makes them better than other people who choose not to hate. Hate should never be worn as a badge of honour.

Being a hater is not a good thing. Especially not for the hater.

Very well said, and holds a lot of truth.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

Mandragola
14-02-2014, 14:19
Yeah I think that the release of the Nid codex is probably not the same as finding out your GF is cheating on you with 3 other guys. I suppose I sort of see what you're getting at, but not a great example!

Nerd rage is a thing. It basically goes with the territory. Most of us have been guilty of it at some point, about something. Right now on this forum you can see somebody raging (not raging hard, but a bit) about somebody's army list at an event they did not attend. People raged about the Tau codex saying it wasn't good enough.

The thing is, actually the ragers are often right, and therein lies a problem. Collectively, we have not managed to find a way to actually influence GW when they mess things up. I remember being in a seminar years ago full of people raging at Jervis Johnson about the 4th edition chaos codex (just after its release), during which he explained that lash of submission was fine because it didn't kill anything. To me, that illustrated a pretty fundamental failure to understand the game. I think Jervis left that room thinking he'd won the argument but results, and years of people taking double-lash armies, say different. I think there are fundamental problems with the way GW goes about designing and testing rules, partly as a result of a poor relationship with customers. Any and all complaints are treated as if they were unreasoned raging, and ignored, when often the raging is because of real problems. These real problems are then also ignored, leading to more raging.

IcedCrow
14-02-2014, 14:29
The ragers being right depends on the context.

For example: from a competitive min/max point of view I agree with the ragers. Had this been 10 years ago, I would have been supporting their rage, because riptides and wraith knights and taudar are a thing that you will face at min/max events, and if that's what I care about then it would indeed be a problem.

However, from a narrative or non min/max point of view, the codex is not busted weak or pathetic like is being chimed. Against non min/max armies, the codex seems to me from my limited exposure to it to be a lot of fun.

The problem often comes from a vastly different expectation out of the game. I have fewer and fewer problems with the game because I embrace it for what it is - a flawed RPG with miniatures that I play for narrative reasons to tell a story, not to be competitive with. If I wanted to still be competitive, I would have long ago found a different system and left 40k long ago. I have found much enjoyment from the game and system when I moved in that direction. The guys that stand next to me enjoying the hobby every weekend are guys that have done similarly. The guys that rage against the system are often I find trying to use the system in a way for what its not very good at. I'll avoid the tired metaphors to illustrate.

When people throw in the price and expect "a superior product", what they are really saying (to me) is that the game is expensive, and should live up to their standard (a competitive game) when its not. To me that means its time to move on. Find a game worth your time and money. Stop spending money on a product you hate. Then the high price means nothing to you because you are not contributing to it.

Comparing the people that enjoy the game for what it is to abused girlfriends and beaten wives is quite frankly the apex of stupidity and pretension, any more than calling competitive people cheaters and heartless rape machines is.

Mandragola
14-02-2014, 14:54
I'm not really talking about the Nid codex here. I'm one of the people who thinks it's broadly ok as a book. Obviously, I'm not saying that all ragers are right, all the time, only that they can be sometimes. The community, and GW, is bad at telling the difference between people raging because that's what they do, and people raging because there's an actual problem.

I do think that game imbalance is a problem, and not only for tournament play. In fact I've said many times I don't think it's a problem for tournament play anything like as much as in "friendly" games. Tournament players expect to face tough armies and design their own to face them, and don't generally "waste" their money on units with awful rules. Casual players on the other hand have a right to expect reasonably consistent performance from the toys they spend their money on, especially kids and people with limited funds. I think imbalance must inevitably drive some of those people away from the game.

Real world example: I have a couple of cousins who are brothers, and a bit younger than me. As teenagers, they took up GW, with one playing marines and the other orks. Apparently, the ork one never won a game, and before long they both stopped because they thought it was no fun as it was so one-sided. Now I never saw any of their games so I don't know what caused the orks to fail so hard, but my point is that the perception of unfairness is something most of us have a pretty strong natural reaction against. You don't have to be a WAAC tournament junkie to get fed up feeling like you can never win, or be bored of not being challenged.

Kahadras
14-02-2014, 14:56
BotWD is and will continue to be the single biggest mistake of 8th for the foreseeable future. Hosing a single army in the game in the manner it does is the absolute nadir of game design.

The fact that it made life difficult for DoC wasn't the point though. For me the issue was that the rage got to the point that people were convinced that the Bannerstar was going to mean that High Elves were going to sweep the floor in competitive tournaments. We'd moved from a legitimate concern (HE vs DoC in a competitive game) to something else entirely.

Theocracity
14-02-2014, 15:02
The fact that it made life difficult for DoC wasn't the point though. For me the issue was that the rage got to the point that people were convinced that the Bannerstar was going to mean that High Elves were going to sweep the floor in competitive tournaments. We'd moved from a legitimate concern (HE vs DoC in a competitive game) to something else entirely.

Which, per Mandragola's point, is probably one of the reasons why GW has a hard time distinguishing the signals of balance issues from the noise of general internet hyperbole.

Denny
14-02-2014, 15:06
Nerd rage is a thing. It basically goes with the territory. Most of us have been guilty of it at some point, about something.

Very true.


The thing is, actually the ragers are often right, and therein lies a problem. Collectively, we have not managed to find a way to actually influence GW when they mess things up.

This is worth repeating. Someone can be raging, spitting bile, shouting down any opposition and swear blue murder . . . and still be right.
Equally someone can be calm, friendly, reasonable and charming . . . and still be wrong (like Jevis)

Thing is, its a lot harder to listen to the former than it is the latter. Even if the former is right its difficult to agree with them because they sound like a bit of a nutcase.

wanderingblade
14-02-2014, 15:21
The thing is, actually the ragers are often right, and therein lies a problem. Collectively, we have not managed to find a way to actually influence GW when they mess things up.

Sometimes I dream about a mass protest movement. Seems a tad* ridiculous to do so after a game. But then, as seen, it's a game that a lot of people invest in heavily. If people are going to rage, it might as well be useful, right...?

*ok, a lot.

Formerly Wu
14-02-2014, 15:24
Hate should never be worn as a badge of honour.

Being a hater is not a good thing. Especially not for the hater.
Well said.

IcedCrow
14-02-2014, 15:31
Why doesn't the community put their rage to constructive action and write their own version of 40k and the army books since many claim that they could do better :)

Kahadras
14-02-2014, 15:44
Which, per Mandragola's point, is probably one of the reasons why GW has a hard time distinguishing the signals of balance issues from the noise of general internet hyperbole.

It's probably why GW feel that they can't win.

NerZuhl
14-02-2014, 15:50
Why doesn't the community put their rage to constructive action and write their own version of 40k and the army books since many claim that they could do better :)

Please provide a quote of someone claiming they could write better rules? Otherwise you would be using a strawman as an argument. Also, we have seen what happens to those who try to write fandexes. Pop on over to 3++ blog and see the hate that spewed forth. If there is one thing that unites the competitive and fluff lovers together it is a hate for all Fandexes. In addition, if you are interested in a decent fandex or rule set for 40k written by the community I believe there is a copy called pancake that has received pretty good reviews.

IcedCrow
14-02-2014, 15:51
Please provide a quote of someone claiming they could write better rules? Otherwise you would be using a strawman as an argument. Also, we have seen what happens to those who try to write fandexes. Pop on over to 3++ blog and see the hate that spewed forth. If there is one thing that unites the competitive and fluff lovers together it is a hate for all Fandexes. In addition, if you are interested in a decent fandex or rule set for 40k written by the community I believe there is a copy called pancake that has received pretty good reviews.

I could provide about 50 quotes from across the intrawebz. Thanks. There is no strawman (the internet's favorite word) because I'm not arguing a point and then creating a new point that's unrelated to argue against. I'm claiming that there are a great many people that claim online that they can do better but won't show us how great their attempt is.

I don't see a united hate for fandexes, I see people that instead of pooping their diapers in rage and throwing tantrums actually get up and do something about it and I see other people lashed and chained to some ideal that if its not from the company that it doesn't count.

Theocracity
14-02-2014, 15:54
Please provide a quote of someone claiming they could write better rules? Otherwise you would be using a strawman as an argument.


Also, we have seen what happens to those who try to write fandexes. Pop on over to 3++ blog and see the hate that spewed forth. If there is one thing that unites the competitive and fluff lovers together it is a hate for all Fandexes.


I really don't want to start an argument or anything about this, but your first quote could very easily apply to your second quote.


In addition, if you are interested in a decent fandex or rule set for 40k written by the community I believe there is a copy called pancake that has received pretty good reviews.

I thought that rules set was pretty interesting, though it needed refinement.

NerZuhl
14-02-2014, 16:21
I will admit that I read that as directed at those in this thread. My mistake. It was actually a composition fallacy being used.

Fyi you have strawman confused with shifting goals
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

I didn't misrepresent his argument by raising the events occuring on 3+, so no strawman. Could be said it is a false cause fallacy

IcedCrow
14-02-2014, 16:31
I was claiming that there are many people that make claims that they could do better but never do. How this is a logical fallacy ... well... you got me.


Why doesn't the community put their rage to constructive action and write their own version of 40k and the army books since many claim that they could do better

This was the question that I asked. There was no shifting goal posts or strawmen or whatever nifty logical fallacy we want to try to put on it as the topic at hand is "nerd rage". It is a question based on an observation regarding "nerd rage" and more specifically "nerd rage as it deals with warhammer 40k".

Theocracity
14-02-2014, 16:37
I will admit that I read that as directed at those in this thread. My mistake. It was actually a composition fallacy being used.

Fyi you have strawman confused with shifting goals
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

I didn't misrepresent his argument by raising the events occuring on 3+, so no strawman. Could be said it is a false cause fallacy

I wasn't really bothering with what the exact logical fallacy was. I just wanted to point out that if you're going to attack someone for using vague, unquoted groups of people as an argument point you probably shouldn't immediately follow it up by referencing other vague, unquoted groups of people.

In general I'd prefer if people didn't attack each other at all. But I know that makes me a hypocrite :p.

dangermouse425
14-02-2014, 16:54
Tears of rage flowed like honey.

This is why I love the hobby threads, rather than the rules or general "discussion" threads.

AngryAngel
14-02-2014, 17:32
Another aspect of this phenomenon is the willingness to consider a particular thread/post/comment as "rage". In a way it denigrates the subject by saying "Your opinion/feelings/experiences are worthless".If you're seeing an increase in "rage" then perhaps you should consider what you classify "rage" as rather than assume it's on the increase.

Going through this thread, I came upon this and have to agree. Who exactly is the judge of when something is just base less rage, and justified anger ? Or do we, as a society, just think ever being angry or negative on something is always wrong. That is a dangerous ideal, that people don't have the right to voice their dislike and displeasure with something they hold important to them and don't try and claim moral high ground saying you don't. If you care enough to come on here, to look at all the news and rumors and even become angered by the internet rage, you care about it.

It seems we have a lot of glass houses around here. As I've seen people who refer to everyone who disagrees as toxic and full of nerd rage, yet they themselves then rage on anyone who disagrees with them. Disagreement is fine, and I think needed to ever make anything better or come to a right conclusion. However, to voice disagreement and anger over how something your passionate with, is simply natural, especially with no way to have impact on its change or even really be heard. Some countries, were even born of just the same kinds of feelings of anger and lets say, rage. As well I'd say again, belittling someone for getting upset, over what they feel isn't positive changes to something they spend a lot of time in money in, is and always should be considered wrong.

I know its much more PC to just go along to get along, and anger is these days such a no no, even if it's needed or warranted, but it is as much a part of us as any other emotion. I think its far easier to paint a brush over anyone and everyone who dissents as simply " a hater ", much harder to actually accept they have a different point of view and may even make some sense in some ways.

I guess what I'm saying is, there is no judge to say what is warranted and what is not. No man/woman should be belittled for their opinion, regardless of it is under the guise of Good support, or negative rage. As well at one point or another we've all been on either side of that brush we pain other people with. Lastly, anger, is good and fine, it shows passion, it denotes caring and without it, we'd have no love, its that other side of the coin. So perhaps we can love,. hate , accept and rage as a community, and realize, its all opinions, and we're all in it together.

Parting thought being, and I fully mean all I said by the way. Hatred is the greatest gift of the emperor, lets not waste it.

Theocracity
14-02-2014, 18:11
If hating a recreational activity is a gift, then I hope the Emperor kept the receipt.

Edit: I have no problem with people expressing negative opinions, even if it's something they're upset and passionate about. I have a problem when people get hysterical, lose perspective on the situation, and get downright evangelical in their negativity. That's when it starts to turn my leisure time browsing around here into a depressing slog.

AngryAngel
14-02-2014, 18:25
The hatred quote was simply placing a 40k quote in at the end of the response, I'd hope, people would see such from it. Though being angry for a spell and venting can be constructive, it is all in how its managed like any other emotion, even love has its dark side. As for the perspective, you'd find people got less unreasonable if certain people didn't always chime in with pokes and prods and barbs, then claim to be rays of sunshine, instigating is just as vile as the hysterical anitcs you point out. Not saying you do Theocracity, if anything I know we don't see eye to eye on it all but you've always been polite even in disagreement. You do I am sure see those who do instigate, then de cry the rage they spawn and claim they just want goodness.

Give me honest ragers any day, at least such is honest.

Theocracity
14-02-2014, 18:36
The hatred quote was simply placing a 40k quote in at the end of the response, I'd hope, people would see such from it. Though being angry for a spell and venting can be constructive, it is all in how its managed like any other emotion, even love has its dark side. As for the perspective, you'd find people got less unreasonable if certain people didn't always chime in with pokes and prods and barbs, then claim to be rays of sunshine, instigating is just as vile as the hysterical anitcs you point out. Not saying you do Theocracity, if anything I know we don't see eye to eye on it all but you've always been polite even in disagreement. You do I am sure see those who do instigate, then de cry the rage they spawn and claim they just want goodness.

Give me honest ragers any day, at least such is honest.

I think a lot of prodding you're referring to comes from people who have good intentions but are frustrated from trying to provide honest help or perspective and end up getting burned. I know I've been getting pretty cynical about the way people react to my attempts to help.

Surgency
14-02-2014, 18:40
I think a lot of prodding you're referring to comes from people who have good intentions but are frustrated from trying to provide honest help or perspective and end up getting burned. I know I've been getting pretty cynical about the way people react to my attempts to help.

When attempts at helping, prospering advice, or trying to point out ways to utilize certain items are met with "you don't know anything", "you don't have enough experience", or "obviously you don't have the skills of a pro tourney player" then it's difficult to not get frustrated and cynical

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

Theocracity
14-02-2014, 18:46
When attempts at helping, prospering advice, or trying to point out ways to utilize certain items are met with "you don't know anything", "you don't have enough experience", or "obviously you don't have the skills of a pro tourney player" then it's difficult to not get frustrated and cynical

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

Exactly. See also: GW apologist, mindless fanboy, kool-aid drinker, etc. Sometimes the insults are passive, like someone raging 'you'd have to be an idiot to use x unit.' What does that say about anyone who just uses that unit in a different context and has fun anyway?

It might be better to let people rage and ignore them, but it's so prevalent that it basically means not participating in the forum.

insectum7
14-02-2014, 19:01
The thing that gets me is how complaints about a few units or unfavorable results within certain contexts (like tournaments) wind up going way beyond that and into "codex is terrible", "lazy design", "GW is failing" and all this sort of hyperbole. It boggles my mind how quickly unhappiness about one release inflates to proof of an apparently pox-infused multinational cooperation.

Surgency
14-02-2014, 19:03
Or a multi-national conspiracy to steal money and screw over players

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Bugaboo
14-02-2014, 20:29
Exactly. See also: GW apologist, mindless fanboy, kool-aid drinker, etc. Sometimes the insults are passive, like someone raging 'you'd have to be an idiot to use x unit.' What does that say about anyone who just uses that unit in a different context and has fun anyway?

It might be better to let people rage and ignore them, but it's so prevalent that it basically means not participating in the forum.

This is exactly why I can't take some ragers as anything more than raging hypocrites, as I have experienced exactly this sort of behavior when someone was trying to give me "help" on the army list forum. Suffice to say, I have become somewhat more wary of posting in tacticas or army list threads unless it's to help out with a rules query, or offer some advice which is a little more neutral than... well, some of the stuff that's been slung my way, or towards other people who aren't netlisting "masterminds".

It's that sort of rage which is truly toxis. The stuff about how GW is lame and overcharges and writes crappy rules? It sucks, yes, but when someone comes on here asking for advice, and gets called any number of less than pleasant words for not taking advice because it's unthematic for their army, well, there really is no one that can be blamed for that beyond the person who wasn't thinking before typing.

And a preemptive apology for anyone who decides to skip my post and just see the word netlisting as trollish baiting. I am lacking a better term for the overused and samey tactics and army lists one finds on the internet.

AngryAngel
14-02-2014, 21:55
Perhaps some ragers are more aggressive with it when counter point is brought to them. However it helps nothing to then poke, prod and instigate even if someone is getting cynical from it. You lose that Live and let live mindset and then also become part of the problem you once spoke out against. There is zero difference to me of ragers, and those who rage on ragers. Saying they made me do it doesn't make it better.

Not to mention there is a lot of off hand labeling that goes on, where if someone doesn't like what GW did, they're having nerd rage, or being toxic, troll, etc. The works on the other side where as soon as someone does defend anything GW, they get the kool aid drinker comment or the apologist or even the fan boy. There are both of them here, have no illusions, but I think as well many are too easy just to toss those terms, which escalates the hate and anger on both sides.

I know these words will have zero chance of making things better, but, I say them anyways to try and help. Upset and joy with this hobby will keep going both ways. You can't make everyone love everything, but we can accept each other have the right to voice such differing opinions. You don't want to get caught up in the bile and mud slinging, just realize its not worth it to get involved. If you do, try and be polite and realize the words will fly at some point.

rocdocta
15-02-2014, 01:37
As a rager, i find the anger comes from the seemingly blind acceptance of poor quality control and being ripped off. Its as though GW are pushing the boundaries of what the customers find acceptable. But fans fall back on "its not that terrible. its only bad" or justify the poor product with "anyone not likeing this just wants a cructh, WAAC player etc". No, not eveyone wants that. I dont. I want good options, not the least bad one. If tyranids are defined by synapse and IB well shouldnt other armies also have the same rule pros and cons instead of only pros?

But anyway a benefit of the new codex and the direction 40k is the branching out that it is inspiring. other systems are getting a run such as Xwing and this is a good thing for the club. Feel free to do the usual...yeah go we wont miss you etc...

Why we Rage.

IcedCrow
15-02-2014, 01:41
Probably because your opinion much like any opinion is only your opinion. So rage on against those blind fools that dont accept your opinion as theirs cowboy.

Rage on.

Ssilmath
15-02-2014, 01:46
And this is why I dislike the ragers so much. Not only have they decided for everybody else what opinion we should hold (Their opinion) but we are either foolish or stupid for holding another opinion.

You don't like it? That's fine. But you do not have any right to tell me that I should hate it, or that I am stupid for not.

IcedCrow
15-02-2014, 01:54
Don't forget that you bathe in the blood of the innocents and drink the blood-aid and are an abused wife.

Especially the last part.

naloth
15-02-2014, 02:03
And this is why I dislike the ragers so much. Not only have they decided for everybody else what opinion we should hold (Their opinion) but we are either foolish or stupid for holding another opinion.

You don't like it? That's fine. But you do not have any right to tell me that I should hate it, or that I am stupid for not.

The funny thing is that each side often has members that do that to the opposite side of any discussion. Some discuss things and consider, but others are quick to ridicule, belittle, and resort to personal insults.

It's a discussion board for expressing opinions, a place to express and get responses. If you don't want a response, or only want people to share your opinion, you should probably look for a different forum.

Ssilmath
15-02-2014, 02:06
Sorry Naloth, but "People like flipping a coin to see who wins" and "Well, if you like scooping your models into a box you'll like Nids" is not discussion.

AngryAngel
15-02-2014, 02:09
The funniest thing is the pots over and over again calling the kettle black. The ragers opinion is their opinion, the apologists opinion is their opinion, the only fact is we're all entitled to hold either opinion or even one in between.

IcedCrow
15-02-2014, 02:12
I don't think anyone is against opinion.

I think when the opinion is "we're tired of apologists apologizing for the crappy game and acting like abused wives" or "blindly accepting what GW does and enjoying being ripped off (ie... ******)" is what the issue is with.

See there's a difference between an opinion, and insulting someone :D one you can't really get angry with (though some seem to do so) and the other, well... when you insult someone it is not uncommon for the target of your insult to be insulted and say things back :D

If I call you a moronic twit, do you think that we will then have constructive discourse following?

Ssilmath
15-02-2014, 02:16
There's also a key difference between how opinions are expressed. One group states "This is how it is". The other group says "I think this", or "I like this" or "I don't like this". I don't take any issue with the latter, though I may ask why and try to convince them otherwise if I have an opposing opinion. But I have problems with the first group.

And sure, both sides have some of each. But one side of the argument sure seems to have more of the former group than the latter group. You want a perfect example, look at the Genestealer part of the Tyranid hate thread, and you'll see who fits into which camp.

AngryAngel
15-02-2014, 02:18
To be honest, I doubt you'd say anything that would effect what I think of you. As if you said such to me, there is good odds I already thought the same of you, I just didn't voice it in being polite, which is the difference. Two wrongs not making a right and all that. For our, what if, scenario of course.

True enough, both sides have people who do that. However, being on either side does flavor what you notice on who is acting out of sorts over another. People tend to gloss over behavior of someone who agrees with them more often then not, even if it is out of line.

naloth
15-02-2014, 02:19
And sure, both sides have some of each. But one side of the argument sure seems to have more of the former group than the latter group. You want a perfect example, look at the Genestealer part of the Tyranid hate thread, and you'll see who fits into which camp.

Sure, but you've associated either of the above comments with me ("People like flipping a coin to see who wins" and "Well, if you like scooping your models into a box you'll like Nids" ") you've forgotten that I didn't make those or anything like that.

Ssilmath
15-02-2014, 02:22
Sure, but you've associated either of the above comments with me ("People like flipping a coin to see who wins" and "Well, if you like scooping your models into a box you'll like Nids" ") you've forgotten that I didn't make those or anything like that.

I was not associating them with you. I know you did not say them, I was giving an example of how there are people who are not interested in discussion, only in touting the superiority if their opinion. I may think you are wrong about a lot of things, but at least you I can discuss with (When I'm not frazzled with everything and start acting like an opinionated jerk myself).

naloth
15-02-2014, 02:24
I was not associating them with you. I know you did not say them, I was giving an example of how there are people who are not interested in discussion, only in touting the superiority if their opinion. I may think you are wrong about a lot of things, but at least you I can discuss with (When I'm not frazzled with everything and start acting like an opinionated jerk myself).

Fair enough, but I think if you look back you can see about as many useless attack/sarcastic replies of the same calibur made by frustrated pro-dex people as people that had issues con-dex. (I'm coin-ing those terms for future use.)

Ssilmath
15-02-2014, 02:31
Well of course you do. That's natural, not to be condoned but expected. But I'm talking about consistency in posts and posting style. But if you take a look at the language used, you'll find a lot of the con-dex are making statements and a lot of the pro-dex people are making suggestions. There's a world of difference between saying "I don't like unit X, they never work for me and I can't find a good way to use them" and "Unit X sucks."

And yes, some pro-dex people stir the pot a bit more than they probably should, I'm not trying to put up a 'holier than thou' front.

Sgt John Keel
15-02-2014, 02:35
People who approach this as a hobby instead of a competitive sport tend to be happier with things overall, from what i see

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Crazytalk, I'm sure most of my rage comes from never being able to finish a project. :p

Anyhow, if I had to comment on the topic, I think people reads things way too literally (I know I do sometimes), automatically assume the worst about the other posters (I know I can) and sometimes are expressing their opinions way too harshly (I definitely do, which makes me scared to go back and read responses so I'd like to say sorry to everyone who probably deserved a response but didn't get one).

And yes, sometimes I read stuff that makes me angry. It would serve me well to remember that the person writing is probably well meaning at some level, even if this is the Internet.

(This post may suffer a bit from false-consensus effect.)

ntw3001
15-02-2014, 02:37
the fan boys who would happly smile and thank GW is they pushed fine cast drop pods up their backsides while charging them 1000 pounds for it.

But you get to keep the drop pod right?

I have noticed that, on this and other forums, the pro [whatever] apologists tend to see themselves as being victimised when it's not the case. Usually in rules-quality discussion, a few posters pop up to offer support and are ignored or disagreed with. They then decide that they're being scolded, which is wrong. Then they insult the imagined scolder, then they get scolded, then we get ten pages of 'u', 'no u'.

In reality though, people would find fewer rage threads without wilful reinterpretation of regular discussion threads. Actual rage is rare.

mattschuur
15-02-2014, 07:16
I go to negative threads to get feedback on the things I don't like about a codex, army book, etc. I don't post much unless I'm annoyed or agitated.
Someone said that frustration over lack of GW response is part of the problem and I agree. When you see something you enjoy being broken or altered, it makes you upset and want to voice your opinion. When that opinion is ignored or condemned, it makes you angrier. When it's been going on for 14 years (how long I've been playing), you might reach your breaking point.
As far as nostalgia altering people's views, that's not always the case. I play chaos and I 'do' look back fondly on 3.5. Not because it was overpowered, which it was, but because of the design. Legion specific rules, gear and veteran skills allowed pretty fun army building, the execution was bad. I think many chaos players, well the ones I've talked to, look back at 3.5 due to it's design, not it's power.
The only real problem with negative threads is when it gets into personal attacks on individuals. GW isn't a person, it's a business, it doesn't have feelings. However, posters are people and do have feelings. So, being surprised that telling a group of angry people on the internet to just calm down causes them to redirect hate on you is a bit naive. You can't stop the hate threads, as someone posted earlier. They aren't new, they won't go away and as far as the personal attacks and vulgarity, that's what the mod's are for.

Wesser
16-02-2014, 19:56
Shall we perhaps say we fed the troll enough by now?

This thread was a "floater" from the very first Word, so maybe /thread it here

Theocracity
16-02-2014, 22:12
Shall we perhaps say we fed the troll enough by now?

This thread was a "floater" from the very first Word, so maybe /thread it here

I find the best way to let a thread die is to not bump it to the top of the page a day after everyone stopped posting in it ;).