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View Full Version : With so much GW hate, where are people going for their wargaming needs?



dave40k
14-02-2014, 11:16
I moved over to Privateer Press about 5 years ago due to the fun system and the more reasonable prices. Now the prices are almost right up there with GW. I sold all my Warmahordes because I wasn't playing tabletops for years. Now I want to play tabletop again but the only sanely priced minis I can find are Malifaux (different from 40k/Warmahordes playstyles so I'm not sure if I would like it) or Mantic's systems. I'm in USA and not sure how popular Mantic is. I've got the Ork half of one of the 40k 2player boxes, and my wife has a Nid battleforce. I might just bite the bullet and slowly sloooooowly expand upon those armies. Is there really no other popular alternative in the USA for wargaming?

Private_SeeD
14-02-2014, 11:44
I've moved over to warmahorde but unlike you I'm pretty new to it but already I'm getting worried that their prices are reaching hefty levels. A family member has mentioned Infinity which I've looked into but with the lack of fluff or army books like you get in warmahorde or GW I couldn't get into it or even buy a model


Sent from my Omni tool via the Sol System Mass Relay

AsleepByDay
14-02-2014, 12:31
Infinity has fluff, the free to download rulebook doesn't have that included, the expansion books build on that fluff. Game wise it is a neat little skirmish game.

Spartan games produce a range of games you might what to look at, dystopian wars is the most popular and is pretty cheap. Dystopian legions shares a lot of core rules with 40k alas the models are expensive due to all being metal.

You should check out the science fiction and fantasy games sections of the forum!

General Veers
14-02-2014, 12:33
In my area the popular alternatives seem to be Flames of War WWII, X-Wing, Bolt Action WWII, Infinity. While Deadzone isn't in stores kickstarter backers are playing it and reporting its good. None of those are a direct 40k replacement though. Not like Warzone was in the late 90s.

duffybear1988
14-02-2014, 13:01
Gates of Antares should be coming out pretty soon as well. It's written by Rick Priestley and he has a team from the good old days of GW with him so it should be good.

IcedCrow
14-02-2014, 14:20
If ever there were a QUALITY game of armies clashing (not skirmish level games) I'd definitely look at it. As it is to date, I don't see any that exist barring writing my own. I have enough miniatures to last me several lifetimes.

Herzlos
14-02-2014, 14:57
Have you tried Kings Of War?

I get most of my gaming fix at the moment from X-Wing and Flames Of War.

IcedCrow
14-02-2014, 15:11
I have tried Kings of War. I'm not a fan of the system or the models.

dave40k
14-02-2014, 15:13
If ever there were a QUALITY game of armies clashing (not skirmish level games) I'd definitely look at it. As it is to date, I don't see any that exist barring writing my own. I have enough miniatures to last me several lifetimes.

This is what I'm saying as well. Although I do not find painting dozens of minis to be immensely enjoyable, I would still rather not play such small scale skirmish.


Have you tried Kings Of War?

I get most of my gaming fix at the moment from X-Wing and Flames Of War.

I've looked into Kings of War several times and I really like their armies. There's really nothing holding me back from spending a little bit of money on them. I'd love to demo it though I need to see if my FLGS carries Mantic now I haven't been home in nine months. Although I only plan on playing with my wife, I would love to have the option of playing with others. I'm not sure how much Mantic has caught on in the USA. I love wargaming perhaps I should move to the UK. Also, I love Triumphs.

Keravin
14-02-2014, 15:19
I'm playing PP, but I understand their pricing structure which means they do not have price rises so new models get priced for longevity at the price point. As a game system I much prefer it as the individualistic approach to models whilst playing a semi decent sized game works rather than the abstracts of other games. If I want to go that abstract I can play much much bigger games in historical. I'm also playing Freebooters Fate which is for the narrative skirmish feel with very few models and Inquisitor28 to still have a bit of GW, but focused on the modelling and narrative style, again with very few models and a lot of effort put in by all players.

Nogginthenog
14-02-2014, 15:42
I play 40k 2nd edition houseruled to include newer toys people may have bought (although that , obviously only works if you have a regular gaming group), Necromunda somewhat sporadically, Infinity -which is great and the fluff in the paid for books is plenty enough for me- , I've just bought a malifaux crew to give that a try, but I think this year my main game will likely be deadzone.

Its genuinely great as far as game mechanics go, the scenery you get in the main boxed game is , if handled with a bit of care, really nice, and I love the plague figures, especially the big bad stage 1, that is a fantastic mini. The enforcers are fine, not the best space soldier minis out there, but OK for a starter box (I paid £54 for the box with the two forces, all the rules and things and the mat and scenery in it from my local hobby shop), I think the ork style force thats available separately is a nice collection, not a fan of the dogs but the powered suit guys are much nicer than GW's version and the rebs army is an interesting mix.

At £20 for a starter force for the extra factions its less than £2 a model, so its cheap enough. Some of the models are a bit hit and miss as stated, with some truly nice ones (Enforcer captain, sniper, stage 1 plague, power suit orks, terraton, reb commander in particular) and some particularly bad (the dogs with chainsaw tongues in the ork force are a standout for all the wrong reasons), but I suspect most can find a force they like overall. Gameplay is where the game shines though, its very streamlined, but with a fair bit of tactical depth, more so than the last few editions of 40K or fantasy. I hope they dont screw up the campaign side of things, because it should make this game a no brainer for long term gaming group play.

ColShaw
14-02-2014, 15:58
I haven't really been doing much wargaming lately; I've been focusing my creative energies into building scenery and painting RPG miniatures (Reaper Bones has given me lots and lots of variety to paint on that count!)

I have a British Para Flames of War army, with which I have a quite terrible record (they may be brave on paper, but these lads just won't stand their ground against Axis armour) but have not branched into any other systems in a big way.

I'd like to do Napoleonics, if there was anybody in my area who did it. Ever since I first read about the Peninsula Campaign I've wanted to do Wellington's army.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
14-02-2014, 16:01
Six years ago I switched to Warmachine and regularly attend Steam Roller tournaments. That being said, I dusted off my High Elves this past winter and have been enjoying a number of games with them. GW's prices barely affect me as I have no desire to start a new army. Also, I'm trying to make Wargaming a non-primary hobby, as I want to spend more time (and money) on archery; this his hard to do, however, due to having so many wargaming friends and virtually none who shoot.

Cuchulain84
14-02-2014, 17:51
I'm going back to the good old days by digging out Necromunda, Blood Bowl and Warhammer Quest. :)

I also dabble in Mantic stuff and keep an eye on what other companies are up to. (Quite liking the look of Beyond the Gates of Antares.)

I think i'm done with large scale battle games though.

Verm1s
14-02-2014, 18:03
Now I want to play tabletop again but the only sanely priced minis I can find are Malifaux

:wtf: If Malifaux prices seem sane, you're in a bad way.


(different from 40k/Warmahordes playstyles so I'm not sure if I would like it)

A lot of people love it. Me, I think it's a beardy rules-heaped card game with occasional reference to miniatures.


In my area the popular alternatives seem to be Flames of War WWII, X-Wing, Bolt Action WWII, Infinity. While Deadzone isn't in stores kickstarter backers are playing it and reporting its good.

Along with Malifaux and Warmahordes, I see these as overhyped, almost over-marketed, GW-mimicking, 'exclusive' games.
That might sound like a bit of a nutty and almost 'hipsterish' view, and believe me I know. What I mean is that overall, they seem to continue GW's attitude of tying special (and if I'm allowed an extra crumb of paranoia: kinda power-creep, tourney-based, price-influencing*) rules and attributes to specific models; of fostering the idea of only using their rules with 'official' minis, and vice versa. I mean, if you've got a small, regular group or club of gamers (anyone else besides you and your wife, Dave?) and 40K or Warmahordes or whatever is losing it's lustre, how many of you - or other average Warseer members - would try to get more use out of their minis rather than sell them on? Take a leaf out of Nogginthenog's book, like? The impression I get of this 'either/or' mentality towards specific games is vaguely depressing.

*To be fair, I've had a demo game of X-Wing and the rules seem pretty decent, but I still wonder that if and when X-Wing gets boring, will the owner hang onto the minis for long?

I fell out of love with Warhammer FB and 40K a while ago. In lieu of the former, I've had a look at Kings of War; but while I don't think it's terrible, like IcedCrow there are aspects of the rules and mechanics that don't do it for me. But there are other rules I looked at, some not seeking to replace or emulate GW's model, or just put out there for people to enjoy rather than to sell minis. For my own fantasy gaming, I've settled on Mayhem (http://bombshell-games.com/mayhem/). (with an eye on God of Battles too) Proper mass battle (no handkerchiefs on fifth models of fourth ranks), interesting command & control and tactical choices (not listbuilding), decent amount of chrome in the handy unit-building rules, and not a single oversized, overpowered, overpriced mini in sight. More recently I've had a look at Victory Decision: Future Combat (http://www.adpublishing.de/html/future_combat_vide.html), and I could mostly say the same of that. (Tell your missus there's also a bug supplement arriving in a month or so, Dave. ;) ) With both I'm not only encouraged to use my old FB and 40K models but to buy some more! Haven't had that feeling for quite a while.

On a similar note: how much would it take to convince your (I take it) tiger-happy opponents to something like Battlegroup Kursk, ColShaw?


None of those are a direct 40k replacement though.

Pff. They're not so bad then.

Scaryscarymushroom
14-02-2014, 18:24
I'm happily playing Privateer Press games, but smaller games suit me anyway. It would be really easy to get carried away and build an enormous army for Warmachine, but I'm satisfied keeping it at the 25-35 point level, which mitigates the price a bit. Just a bit.

But it sounds like you are wanting a big army system.

What is important to you OP?
1) Do you want to be able to use your ork and tyranid models in an existing game system?
2) Are you just looking for some cheap models to fill out the ranks?
3) Are you going to rule out the possibility of playing 40k with non-40k models?
4) Do you want something in 28mm scale?
5) How important is the painting/building/fluff side of things for you?

Mantic's warpath models honestly don't look that bad. Dreamforge games has some cheap sci-fi humans, too. I'm not sure what's going on with Defiance games right now, but they used to have a kit of "bugs" for about $1 each as a part of their "alien war" product line. Would have made for good Hormagaunts. If you wanted to play fantasy games, you might be able to use models from historical companies and complement them with the occasional purchase from Reaper.

Other than that, I've had people recommend Tomorrow's war to me, but I've never tried it myself.

Odin
14-02-2014, 18:26
I'm still on GW games, love 8th edition Warhammer (especially with our handful of houserules to fix the main issues).

As for minis, I simply have almost everything I need. I used to just buy models when I liked them, even if I knew I'd never get around to painting them. At current costs that's simply not an option so I'm finally focussing on painting what I've got. Even when I do get a new model it's never direct from GW of course!

ColShaw
14-02-2014, 18:31
On a similar note: how much would it take to convince your (I take it) tiger-happy opponents to something like Battlegroup Kursk, ColShaw?

Good question. As the "new guy" in the FOW group in my area, it's not really my place to dictate policy with regard to rulesets. I've just always loved infantry as opposed to tanks (I once played a 40K Apocalypse game, 5000 points per person, with an Imperial Guard army with *no tanks* in it... 432 models!) and FOW is not really conducive to that style, a lot of the time. That, and my distressing tendency to fail Tank Terror tests, even with rerolls. :(

Ozendorph
14-02-2014, 18:43
Bought into PP over the holidays, and I'm painting up and playing a Circle force currently. I dig the rules and minis, and my club is running a warmahordes league so there's plenty of competition to be had. My only issue not being able to play larger battles (I'm an Apoc guy)...I just can't see the system handling games with more than a single caster/lock per side gracefully.

Khornies & milk
14-02-2014, 19:08
Warmachine is my group's main game, and has been for over a year now...since that silly ROW/Embargo BS, plus a general dislike for anything GW related that over time caused a rift to develop. Of the 50 guys in the group most of us are on our 3rd/4th 100 point WH Factions, so Apoc-sized games are often played.

We still play Apoc games of 40K though, just so our 100's of 1000's of points of armies still get some use (and still buy whatever takes our fancy)...I guess we're more collectors than gamers atm, GW related anyway.

Keravin
14-02-2014, 19:42
Bought into PP over the holidays, and I'm painting up and playing a Circle force currently. I dig the rules and minis, and my club is running a warmahordes league so there's plenty of competition to be had. My only issue not being able to play larger battles (I'm an Apoc guy)...I just can't see the system handling games with more than a single caster/lock per side gracefully.
Have a look at the Unbound rules designed to alter some mechanics and go for a bigger game with multiple locks/casters.

Verm1s
14-02-2014, 19:56
Good question. As the "new guy" in the FOW group in my area, it's not really my place to dictate policy with regard to rulesets.

I started waving my new copy of Black Powder around soon after joining a gaming club, and pretty soon the WG trilogy became club favourites. :D Mind you, I had the advantage that Warhammer Historicals had just died, and didn't satisfy their ECW sensibilities anyway. I'm not sure what to suggest to you to help any alternatives gain a toehold. If you want any, that is.

Gonefishing
14-02-2014, 20:17
Firestorm Armada (excellent game from Spartan), Dreadball (excellent game from mantic - bloodbowlesqe but cooler), Necromunda - fantastic game and no longer supported by GW so they cant stuff it up - those cover my gaming needs nowdays!

Lothlanathorian
14-02-2014, 20:26
I've read the rules for FA and just couldn't get behind it. No ramming and this "exploding 6's" thing just put me off.


EDIT: I, personally, would love to find a good Age of Sail game or, perhaps, a Classical Age naval warfare game. IJUSTWANTTORAMTHINGS :mad:

rwphillipsstl
14-02-2014, 21:18
If you like WWII, and want to stick with 28mm figures (so your terrain is compatible), go with Bolt Action by Warlord Games. It is closer to a skirmish game than is Flames of War, so cheaper to start and quicker to play. Bolt Action has rules for armor and vehicles, but it is more of an infantry game, whereas FOW emphasizes armor more than the infantry (which makes sense given the different scales).

i personally love Black Powder for horse and musket era games, and while I think Hail Caesar is fine I prefer War & Conquest by Rob Broom (another GW alumnus) for ancients/medieval, though he has yet to publish army lists (but solid drafts are available on scarab miniatures website). Like Hail Caesar, War & Conquest is sort of like WAB 3.0, but better and not just a different edition (unlike GW).

nosebiter
14-02-2014, 21:25
Warmachine/hordes, as i really love the rules and the setting. X-wing for when we have less time, or are on a star wars binge, and it has attracted the attention of our Rpg groups female non wargamer aswell, so bonus. Freebooters fate, the minis are some of the best.

A mate of mine is wanting me to get into Infinity, but i cant wrap my head around the overly clunky rules.

Bloodknight
14-02-2014, 22:33
I went back to BattleTech after a 15 year period of playing GW games, and I enjoy it more than I did as a kid, I'd say. In my eyes, it's one of the best rules systems ever created and it's got giant robots.

The_Real_Chris
14-02-2014, 22:51
I guess if you are after 'big' battles with 28mm+ models you are limited...

My fantasy fix is God of battles (actually I am turning into a Jake Thorten fanboy - enjoying that, Dwarf Kings Hold and Dreadball, and have a set of deadzone to try next...). 28mm Sci Fi though... It really doesn't work for me as a mass battle format on a 6x4 table. I peaked with 40k 2nd ed and any denser than that it all feels a bit wrong. To be honest I would much rather break out Epic Armageddon to scratch that itch, though I recognise the Sci Fi of the moment that isn't skirmish is Dropzone commander. Possibly get invloved with Warpath testing?

Going to historicals you are spoilt for choice but again I steer away from 28mm. Currently enjoy 7 years war king of the battlefield, then blitzkrieg and cold war commander.

S_A_T_S
14-02-2014, 22:59
I'm going back to the good old days by digging out Necromunda, Blood Bowl and Warhammer Quest. :)
They really were the good old days. They are also great for a group to play together, as the games are low model count, simple rules (for BB and WHQ anyway) and in the coop games n00bs can be easily accommodated. My 8 year old nephew and 60-ish mother in law really liked playing WHQ with my wife and I.



I think i'm done with large scale battle games though.
Same, mostly cos my main opponent and I found a couple of other people from the local LAN who were interested in the same sort of gaming, and now we usually play as a group, which makes large scale battle games tricky due to the various ages, home situations and time available, so all we play are board games, D&D and Pathfinder (which I would recommend, as it's also very low model count, keeps you occupied for a long time and is designed for a varying amount of players and only limited by your imagination).

ashc
14-02-2014, 22:59
My best mate and I are off the warhammer games but are dicing with the idea of playing mantic and warmahordes.

Sent from my GT-I8190N using Tapatalk

lorelorn
15-02-2014, 00:36
While I wouldn't describe myself as someone who "hates" GW, I certainly don't play their games these days. Instead I have quality games and models from multiple companies, and feel that my wargaming hobby is better for it.

SAGA - excellent historical skirmish game with a huge choice of factions and an even larger choice of miniatures in metal or plastic

Dropzone Commander - it's not as good as the old Epic Space Marine IMO, but it's a good game that s easy to get into, as the start boxes contain actual forces. Buy one and you're good to go. The boxes also store the miniatures they come in, which is a bonus.

War Machine - as I age and become more of a casual gamer, War Machine and Hordes are still compelling. While it has a tightly written set of rules, this gives players a lot of freedom to play however they want, with confidence that when you meet someone new, you are already playing the same game, and you don't get stopped by one another's house rules while trying to play (you know what I mean).

X-Wing Miniatures - no painting required but good-looking models? Count me in! The first sets of this game seemed aimed at people around my age who grew up with the "holy trilogy". While newer releases based around the 'expanded universe' or whatever it's called leave me cold, I can still enjoy the game using x-wings, y-wings and TIE fighters all day long.

mrtn
15-02-2014, 03:23
I'm feeling quite enthusiastic about Warlord Games these days, have a Imperial Thirty Years War army for Pike & Shotte, and I'm painting armies number three and four for Bolt Action at the moment. Good rules, and quite cheap and good models. If you want models from other manufacturers you can (it's not as if WW2 is part of anyone's IP, you won't see a Chapterhouse case in historicals ;) ). If I tire of these games I will still have armies usable for other rule sets, whatever those might be.

As I get older I find myself less inclined to bother with official base sizes, unit sizes and so on. So, I got a 2mm advantage thanks to the basing? Who cares. Things like this hasn't been a problem with Warlord's rules so far, I guess Rick Priestley has too much of an influence, and he seems like the kind of gamer who games for fun, not for 2mm advantages.

Amnar
15-02-2014, 06:30
Infinity and flames of war are my go to games. I'd also like to get I to impetus and maybe napoleonics. I have zero urge to play fantasy or 40k. I'd play epic or warmaster in a heartbeat, but I can't find other players. It's a lot harder now too now that GW killed off specialist games.

Herzlos
15-02-2014, 08:27
I'm about to start a Dwarf Army, but I'm expecting to be buying 90% of my Dwarf army from Avatars of War, since it wins hands down on price and quality. I'm not paying £13(£10.70 discounted)/each for a single plastic mini when I can get boutique figures for that.

New Cult King
15-02-2014, 08:39
I have an extremely short attention span, and suffer from an epic case of the Ooh Shinies!

Going to be focusing on Infinity at the moment, though some of the newer Cryx stuff looks nice...

Poseidal
15-02-2014, 10:04
More board games these days.

I still play GW though.

duffybear1988
15-02-2014, 10:26
SAGA, Ronin and Dux Bellorum are my main gamea these days.

IJW
15-02-2014, 10:37
Infinity and Epic Armageddon here.

MaliceXR3
15-02-2014, 12:09
Warmahordes is my main game with X-Wing, Firestorm Armada & soon to be Dystopian Wars filling the rest of my needs

rmeister0
15-02-2014, 14:01
I don't hate GW, I'm just disappointed. While Privateer seems to be the first go-to in line the rules don't appeal to me. I get a bit of 'Magic: The Gathering with minis' vibe with the emphasis on clever combos. I don't find their prices unreasonable given that you can space your purchases out over a long period of time and still have a playable force.

I still get pestered to run Warhammer Quest from time to time. I think I've gotten more hours out of that box than any other GW game I ever bought.

I really like some of the Malifaux models, but we've been using them to play Song of Blades and Heroes. I'm also going to run Deadzone up the flagpole. It's the size and scale of game I like.

Abaraxas
15-02-2014, 14:42
I play 2nd edition 40k and get what minis I do want or need from ebay.
I don't hate GW, unfortunately besides paint they no longer sell 95% of the stuff I wanted to buy from them anymore.

obithius
15-02-2014, 14:54
I play 2nd edition 40k and get what minis I do want or need from ebay.
I don't hate GW, unfortunately besides paint they no longer sell 95% of the stuff I wanted to buy from them anymore.


Ditto for 2nd ed. 40k. Much fun to be had in a dead game:-) You only need a handful of figures and the rules cost next to nothing. I have too much affection for 40k to ditch it, and it's a shame more people don't realise what a fun little skirmish game it used to be.

Tarax
15-02-2014, 15:04
At the moment I'm focussed on (in no particular order) Saga, Flames of War and 40K. Though the latter is only because if almost have my Eldar painted and we're running a campaign (which is nearing its end).

I prefer the more (large) skirmish games to play on an evening at the club. But given the space and time I would very much play a full on battle, whether it's historical, sf or fantasy. But the environment (ie other gamers) have to be in the same state of mind (mostly regarding army composition) to make it fully enjoyable.

Abaraxas
15-02-2014, 15:04
Ditto for 2nd ed. 40k. Much fun to be had in a dead game:-) You only need a handful of figures and the rules cost next to nothing. I have too much affection for 40k to ditch it, and it's a shame more people don't realise what a fun little skirmish game it used to be.

Yeah man :)
It's this blissful state where you just paint your little men and then play with them, house rule what you don't like...there is no WARD RAGE and HATE!

Jedi152
15-02-2014, 16:15
Went over to Flames of War about a year ago and never looked back. I get my 40k and fantasy fix from roleplay games and fiction now.

dave40k
15-02-2014, 18:50
Somebody made a comment about Malifaux not being cheap? From what I've gathered a simple crew box is enough for fun to be had. Am I wrong? Even if you built up more of a crew outside just the crew box I can't see spending more than $100 and even that would be difficult to do. Am I wrong?

My wife surprised me the other night by sending me a pic of some of my 40k Orks she took it upon herself to paint for me. It's got me thinking that there's a lot of hate on GW saying people have been outpriced for the hobby. But if you have an army already, is there really that much to gripe about? Sure it would be expensive to start a new Army but if you've already got one you're looking at a new rulebook every few years and that's about it unless you want to expand your army drastically.

Also, I feel like a bit of a fool. Before this deployment I sold my super nice Battlefoam Warmachines bag with a decent amount of Cygnar (starter box, an extra jack or two, a couple boxes of riflemen), Everblight (starter box a box of archers), and some random 40k bits. Now I am somewhat interested in getting back into Warmahordes against my better judgement, but I'm such a fool for selling my stuff. But really rather than complaining about the price I'm just going to be savvy and look for deals online through craigslist, forums, and ebay.

Scaryscarymushroom
16-02-2014, 00:09
But really rather than complaining about the price I'm just going to be savvy and look for deals online through craigslist, forums, and ebay.

Yes, do this. If you are willing to be patient and accept a little bit of risk, you can find some great deals on eBay. And then (if it suits you) it can also be fun to buy models that you know will be projects. You might be able to get something comparable to your starter sets for about the same amount as you sold them for. Of course, you'll still lose out on the eBay and PayPal fees, and shipping costs, but it could be worse. You could be paying retail. ;)

As for Malifaux, my Guild crew cost me about $55 when all was said and done. 7 models. It's fine for small games, but if I got back into Malifaux I'd want to shake things up a little and use some different models every now and again. Per model it's comparable to GW I suppose. Except that they're metal. And there's a greater variety of sculpts. It's not just ten of the exact same dwarf.

Enfid
16-02-2014, 00:19
I must be more hipsterish then I thought. I'm getting into MERCs for my skirmish, Kensei for my historical/fantasy, and Dropzone Commander for my sci-fi/mass battle. I have a fully-painted Finnish FoW army too, but focussing on infantry. Though I found playing infantry in FoW to be a stressful experience for some reason. Still keeping the army though.

ObiWayneKenobi
16-02-2014, 03:22
I am looking at getting into Warmahordes for my "competitive/social" game and Kings of War for my "I want to have fun" game, since my brother who used to play Fantasy with me over a decade ago has expressed interest in that as a good and better alternative to WHFB. I might also take a look at Flames of War and De Bellis Antiquitatis or similar games (Hail Caesar looks tempting as well) for historical gaming.

Let me state though I don't hate GW, I just think they are borderline delusional and completely out of touch with what their market actually wants, instead pretending they're the only game in town and that people will buy whatever they making instead of making what people will buy. The combination of insanely high prices, extremely poor value in many cases (WHFB more than 40k with requiring at least two boxes of most plastic troops, thus essentially being forced to pay double) and unbalanced rules that they don't even acknowledge as broken or make excuses to cover just cements the deal for me that 40k is not fun, or at the very least it's not the game I remember it being when I played many moons ago.

Schmapdi
16-02-2014, 04:55
Freebooter's Fate, Super Dungeon Explore and Rivet Wars. Though I'm still patiently eyeballing WarmaHordes too.

Plus I still have my existing GW armies that I constantly am torn over whether to add to them or not.

Autumn Leaves
16-02-2014, 08:16
There is no room for hate in the miniature table top gaming hobby.
Play anything you want as long as you enjoy it.
If your enjoyment diminishes, then start playing something else.
Repeat process until you have a mountain of metal and plastic miniatures you could choke a horse with...

dave40k
16-02-2014, 08:36
Yes, do this. If you are willing to be patient and accept a little bit of risk, you can find some great deals on eBay. And then (if it suits you) it can also be fun to buy models that you know will be projects. You might be able to get something comparable to your starter sets for about the same amount as you sold them for. Of course, you'll still lose out on the eBay and PayPal fees, and shipping costs, but it could be worse. You could be paying retail. ;)

As for Malifaux, my Guild crew cost me about $55 when all was said and done. 7 models. It's fine for small games, but if I got back into Malifaux I'd want to shake things up a little and use some different models every now and again. Per model it's comparable to GW I suppose. Except that they're metal. And there's a greater variety of sculpts. It's not just ten of the exact same dwarf.

Right so per model they may be similarly priced, but from what I saw most games are 5-12 models. And ike you said you spent $55 and you're good to go as opposed to $200+ on a GW game. I could see getting carried away with Malifaux though. From my understanding you flip for a scenario then pick your crew. More minis = more choices to better suit the scenario. I love their lore and models.

paddyalexander
16-02-2014, 09:00
There is no room for hate in the miniature table top gaming hobby.
Play anything you want as long as you enjoy it.
If your enjoyment diminishes, then start playing something else.
Repeat process until you have a mountain of metal and plastic miniatures you could choke a horse with...

Quoted for truth. I didn't stop playing gwPLC games because I hate them (the games or the company) but because I was getting a better table top hobby experience from other companies. For almost all of my time playing gwPLC games there were always other games (board, role playing & table top). It just so happened that Warmachine took over as my (and many of my friends') primary hobby experience because it was more fun. There was even a two year period where 40k was still a popular secondary game in my main gaming group. But it got pushed down into obscurity by more better games.

Over the last 3 months my most played table top games have been:
Deadzone
Warmachine/Hordes
Level 7 Omega Protocol
Kings of War
Firestorm Armada (1.5 edition)

I have a large collection of X-wing and love that game I just haven't played it since June of last year. Attack wing does seem to have better rules but the models and components are disappointing. I have armies/forces/gangs for Dystopian Wars, Malifaux, Infinity, Flames of War and Battletech but don't play them as often. I even have some models put together for the (free) Lego based mech game Mobile Frame Zero.

That's not mentioning the huge number of board games, card games, historical war games and role playing games I own & regularly play.

Daniel36
16-02-2014, 10:04
I got in on Dropzone Commander and I love it! It is gaining a lot of popularity, and the starter set has been called one of the very best deals in wargaming in a long time. It has two starter armies, the book, dice, and an entire city block for I think around 80 bucks, but you'd have to check that out yourself. Friends are also playing it now and the rules are very intuitive, and more importantly it's a lot of fun to play.

Also, the cost per mini may sound high, considering they are 10mm, but you need very few models anyways and they hold crazy detail.

Hope that helps.

Archaon
16-02-2014, 10:09
I stopped playing WHFB when 8th edition came out and we did a few test games to get familiar with the rules and found we didn't really enjoy the game anymore (stopped 40K way earlier mid 3rd edition for the same reason).

During a big WHFB tournament years ago (7th or even 6th edition) we discovered Flames of War which basically became our game for several years. I've dabbled with Warmachine and Infinity here and there and while there's a sizeable WH community at my store it never really got going for me.

By the point today i literally stopped playing traditional tabletops, even FoW and turned to board/card/hybrid games and especially X-Wing is big with me right now. It's comparatively cheap (basic box with an X-Wing, 2 Tie Fighters and all accessories you need costs 25 bucks) and each fighter costs 10 bucks, with the bigger ships like the Millennium Falcon costing 25 Euro. It's cheap when you consider that you usually have about 3-4 ships per side (maybe a little bit more when playing Empire as their ships are usually cheaper than Rebel ships) but about 100 Euro/Dollars will give you a great selection of ships to have you playing with variations for a long time to come.

For me in my late 30s (been playing Tabletop games since my late teens, so around 17-18) it's more about time issues and effort i need to put in until i can game. I work all day and often enough i don't feel like driving to a friend or having one over, then setting up a big gaming table, taking all the miniatures out of the carrying case/the closet, arranging them (and before that writing an army list), set up terrain etc.. basically nearly an hour can pass before the first dice are rolled and i'm not counting the time you need to assemble/paint your army.

I just don't want to invest that time and energy anymore for mass tabletops even though i could better now financially than as a kid/student where i had far more free time but less financial means. So at best i'll take a look at new skirmish games where you only have a handful of miniatures and games can be set up quickly and X-Wing fit that mold perfectly (there's also a ton of cheap and great looking starfield maps out there to buy which is all you need). May look into Dreadball as another apparently low investment game even though you have to assemble and maybe paint the guys but since it appears not to have too much miniatures it is no big problem (and might be fun to pick up the brush and paints again).

Verm1s
16-02-2014, 13:17
Somebody made a comment about Malifaux not being cheap? From what I've gathered a simple crew box is enough for fun to be had. Am I wrong? Even if you built up more of a crew outside just the crew box I can't see spending more than $100 and even that would be difficult to do. Am I wrong?

A Malifaux starter box is cheap compared to WHFB or 40K start-ups. Malifaux minis, aren't. I'm still smarting from the cost of a pokey little mobile toolkit mini, and that was after a discount.

Then, like you mentioned, you pick your crew after you determine the scenario. One of Wyrd's ways of making sure you buy more beyond the starter boxes, the 'gotta catch 'em all' mentality. It doesn't encourage you or make it very viable to stick to one small crew. In my case, slow Hoffman in a tight knot of constructs doesn't do awful well when the other guy with a caseful of minis can cherry-pick his fast, wide-ranging construct-killers.

Llew
16-02-2014, 13:21
I don't get to play much due to life happening, but I usually find myself playing one of a number of games when I get the chance.

KoW for mass battles. Dreadball for a quick, fun mini game. Zombicide for a longer, fun mini game. Deadzone or Dust Tactics for skirmish. Uncharted Seas for naval combat. I have a few things for X-Wing which looks like a lot of fun. I'd be willing to play WotR for cinematic mass battle, but with other minis -- just can't make myself pay the prices for GW stuff anymore. I like Warmachine, but with all the synergies you really need to play it regularly to be any good. It's a great game and rule set with outstanding models, but takes more investment of time than I have nowadays. There are plenty of good games out there though: it's a gamer's paradise.

ObiWayneKenobi
16-02-2014, 14:09
I would heartily recommend anyone who played WHFB and has an army to try out Mantic's Kings of War; the rules are like a streamlined WHFB that encourages tactics and strategy, a PDF of the rules and army lists are totally free, and you can use the majority of your existing army modified. It really looks like a great game for that WHFB feel without the baggage of WHFB.

BigbyWolf
16-02-2014, 17:04
I'm still sticking with GW. The hate doesn't bother me and if anything there's been an increase in the number of WFB players in my area.

I have branched out into "board games" as well now, Like Twilight Creations: Zombies and Flying Frog Productions: Last Night on Earth. Both are zombie-based games and a lot of fun. The best thing about them is that I can play them with people who have no interest in wargaming.

nosebiter
16-02-2014, 17:07
I don't get to play much due to life happening, but I usually find myself playing one of a number of games when I get the chance.

KoW for mass battles. Dreadball for a quick, fun mini game. Zombicide for a longer, fun mini game. Deadzone or Dust Tactics for skirmish. Uncharted Seas for naval combat. I have a few things for X-Wing which looks like a lot of fun. I'd be willing to play WotR for cinematic mass battle, but with other minis -- just can't make myself pay the prices for GW stuff anymore. I like Warmachine, but with all the synergies you really need to play it regularly to be any good. It's a great game and rule set with outstanding models, but takes more investment of time than I have nowadays. There are plenty of good games out there though: it's a gamer's paradise.


This last bit SO much. As gamers we are spoilt for choice atm. It is very hard to choose what to pick up and try out.

superdupermatt
16-02-2014, 19:06
Obviously being a GW centric Hobby, the distaste towards the company is prevalent, but I was wondering if there are any other companies (past and present) that caused such dissatisfaction to their customer base? If there are (I am sure there are), what were the reasons for the disdain, and what, if anything, did the companies do to rectify it? Did it work? I ask so perhaps parallels could be drawn up with GWs current standing.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

shelfunit.
16-02-2014, 19:53
Obviously being a GW centric Hobby, the distaste towards the company is prevalent, but I was wondering if there are any other companies (past and present) that caused such dissatisfaction to their customer base? If there are (I am sure there are), what were the reasons for the disdain, and what, if anything, did the companies do to rectify it? Did it work? I ask so perhaps parallels could be drawn up with GWs current standing.

Wasn't it TSR/Wizards of the coast? For roughly similar reasons that people are complaining about GW.

superdupermatt
16-02-2014, 20:08
Ah yes, I've seen that sometimes mentioned. So their prices took their products too far over people's perceptions of value, what happened to the company? Did they turn it around?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

ashc
16-02-2014, 20:23
Rackham's sudden change in policy and design pretty much killed the company.

paddyalexander
16-02-2014, 20:25
TSR ended up failing and getting bought by Wizards of the Coast back around 1997 with WoC getting acquired by Hasbro around 1999/2000.

Wizards of the Coast has seen an overall 10% growth in revenue last year with their biggest product, Magic: The Gathering growing by 20%.


Rackham's sudden change in policy and design pretty much killed the company.

Rackham went from one of the best metal miniature manufacturers in the world to producing soft detailed prepainted miniatures in a soft plastic and a premium price tag attached.

Towards the end they did a lot to try to recover. The rules went up online for free, the army boxes were actually great value compared to their own pricing structure and reasonable in real world terms. They also had sales with some items going to 50% off. But it was too late and the damage was done.

Fade6
17-02-2014, 03:21
Rackham screwed there rules for confrontation up so bad that the game was unplayable. There models went from awesome to complete garbage over night. The only thing they could have done was a complete 180 back to he awesome game they had but that did not happen. Kinda sad as confrontation was really really good game. I have three armies for it.

Athelassan
17-02-2014, 03:45
Part of the problem that TSR had was that it was a suicidal business model in the days of exclusive bricks-and-mortar stores. A company that specialises in roleplaying games is always going to have it tough because it's hard to shift enough product to justify the shelf space. In a worst-case scenario, for every five "customers" you only get one purchase, because resources are easily shared, created from scratch or purchased from other companies. Without a more diverse product range it's going to be difficult to stay afloat. It didn't help that they made a number of fairly well-renowned catastrophic decisions during the 80s and 90s when Lorraine Williams was in charge.

How it maps to GW is unclear. Certainly parallels could be drawn with TSR's internet policy under Williams; somewhat ironically given that GW initially embraced the internet, it's now resiled from it to the extent it has one of the worst websites - and online customer interaction - of any global company I've encountered in the last few years. The policy of sending C&D letters to all and sundry isn't quite as out-of-control as it was at TSR, but it's not entirely unfamiliar.

Some of the other stuff it's difficult to get a handle on. Contempt for the consumer? Some would say so, but that might just be projection. Playtesting considered a waste of time, resulting in unbalanced product releases? Debatable. A key difference, though, is that TSR tried to save itself by diversifying its product range - mostly through new settings and books, but also expanding into other gaming areas, publishing fiction and so on; GW is currently in a period of retrenchment where it's investing more heavily in its core line(s) and trimming away many of the "extraneous" ventures. Not just Specialist Games, either: Warhammer Forge is on hiatus as more attention is directed to 40K and the Heresy, while Black Library has trimmed its releases back so that almost all new releases go into either a flagship line (HH, Time of Legends, Gotrek and Felix, etc.) or are directly linked to a tabletop product and serves as an advertisement for it (Space Marine Battles, Warhammer Heroes); meanwhile the RPG and board game lines have long since been licensed off to third parties.

What ultimately did for TSR, though - as with so many companies - was a lack of cash. It doesn't really matter whether you're profitable so long as you have - or can get - cash. I'm not sure where GW stand in relation to this.

iPaint
17-02-2014, 03:50
Zombicide and Battlegroup as of late.

~iPaint

Putty
17-02-2014, 03:50
i don't really "wargame" anymore. i be lucky to get any type of game once every 6 months.

i stopped malifaux becoz of the reboot and some disputes at the stores that used to support the system. the only things i brought was the 2.0 book and two of the new faction decks upon their release at gencon. the last time i played the game was about 6 months ago.

i stopped whfb becoz of the high model count. this was 2 - 3 years back.

i stopped 40k because i saw the trendsetting in 6th ed before it happened.

i only deal with the "hobby" aspect now. you know? like PAINTING and building terrain.

because of this, I don't spend much money now because the hobbying aspect takes up more time and between lead time and new releases (99% of them do not appeal to me because I have no use for new models) i rather work on my existing shelf of stuff instead.

in the past (this was 5 years or so ago) i was able to start a new 40K / WHFB army every 6 months before selling it and starting a new one.

now, I only work on my existing armies based on what I have.

the last army I started is CSM (when the new codex hit) and its totally for hobby purposes so its a really small army based around Death Guard. the last 40k thing i brought was a 2nd hand heldrake a year ago.

i have plenty of things on my shelf to keep me painting for the next few years. and all the things that gw have done the past few years (especially after the pacific rim embargo) just forced me to stay away from gw material.

skammadix
17-02-2014, 10:40
One of Wyrd's ways of making sure you buy more beyond the starter boxes, the 'gotta catch 'em all' mentality.
This mentality is why I'm shelving my little Warmachine army for the time being. I have a good 25 point army, and while those that argue that Warmahordes is cheaper than 40K claim that's all you need, it's in practice just not enough. When you're a few games in it's all "You need this and that, and that and this caster wants this and loves that, when are you buying a new faction?" And as someone else said, Warmachine requires you to invest a lot of time, which I just can't get behind.

Warmachine was the first game I bought into (not played GW games, so no GW hate from me). With that on the shelf I'm looking at Spartan Games, mainly Planetfall (Firestorm Armada land battles), but that won't drop until April/May it is said.

Otherwise there is Armoured Clash (a Dystopian Wars "spin-off" for land and air battles). The rules and army lists are free and a 1500 point army will set you back ~100 dollars. So that's definitely an option as well.

williamsond
17-02-2014, 10:51
I can give my vote to SAGA very good system and the out lay is quite reasonable by all accounts, their customer service was great too which is always nice and who doesn't like vikings killing stuff...

Sotek
17-02-2014, 12:59
+1 for malifaux, fluffy and a fun game.

daemonkin
17-02-2014, 13:15
Malifaux and Bushido for skirmish games, Secrets of Third Reich for more model-heavy games. And looking forward to Guildball and SoTR 2nd Edition coming to Kickstarter soon.

D.

Zenithfleet
17-02-2014, 14:57
I'm still stuck in GW-land (they got their claws into me long ago...) I left the edition treadmill of 40K behind a while back, though. At first I just switched to painting and modelling rather than playing. Then, as with Abaraxas and others, it occurred to me that I could just... you know... drop out and go back to the versions I liked. 4th ed at first, but I'm now taking the deep breath before the plunge into 2nd ed.

Also branched out into BFG and Epic. And if anyone gets funny looks for playing an earlier edition of 40K, let me tell you, that's nothing, nothing I say, compared to daring to play Epic 3rd ed. :D Also LotR SBG if I ever get around to playing a game - but again, will aim to stick with the tried and tested One Rulebook from 2005ish rather than the newfangled Hobbit stuff.

Plus lots of board games. Roborally, Carcassone, Wiz-War, SDE (occasionally), NetRunner (just the basic deck so I avoid the scary deckbuilding vortex of doom), and good old Space Hulk and HeroQuest. Wouldn't mind trying out Blood Bowl and WHQ. I also have an uneasy feeling there may be an Epic/Carcassone fog-of-war mashup looming. Eat orbital barrage, steeple meeples!

As for models, I liked BFG enough to break my Finecast-embargo-Aussieprices boycott to order direct from GW again. The prices were tolerable when a single big metal ship could fill up a third of your fleet points for less than the cost of a 40K tactical squad. Naturally they decided to shut it down. Oh well. I've also long been a fan of Reaper Minis and Hasslefree.

Kahadras
18-02-2014, 00:07
For fantasy battles I still play Warhammer. I've got a High Elf army and I've been building a VC army on the cheap via Element Games for the past few months.

I'm not touching 6th ed 40K with a bargepole at the moment and I've settled for Dropzone commander instead for my sci-fi fix

I've also got a couple of factions for Anima Tactics (Empire and Wissenschaft) which is probably my favorite game system at the moment.

Gorbad Ironclaw
18-02-2014, 07:00
Somebody made a comment about Malifaux not being cheap? From what I've gathered a simple crew box is enough for fun to be had. Am I wrong? Even if you built up more of a crew outside just the crew box I can't see spending more than $100 and even that would be difficult to do. Am I wrong?

Not really. You get the core of a masters thematic crew in the box. The new plastic boxes generally have somewhere in the region of 30-40 points, and games seem to be mostly in the 35-50 point range (not played one higher than 50 so far). So picking up a starter box will let you play the game at more than a "trying out the rules level", but yeah, your probably going to want more bits later on.


A Malifaux starter box is cheap compared to WHFB or 40K start-ups. Malifaux minis, aren't. I'm still smarting from the cost of a pokey little mobile toolkit mini, and that was after a discount.

Meh, the prices are certainly no worse than pretty much any other game. Whatever you find it acceptable to pay £3-6 for most/many of the single models is a personal judgement. In general you will however need fewer models than many other games so the overall price still stays low. I've certainly spent less on the masters me and the wife are running from three different factions than I have on a single Warhammer army.


Then, like you mentioned, you pick your crew after you determine the scenario. One of Wyrd's ways of making sure you buy more beyond the starter boxes, the 'gotta catch 'em all' mentality. It doesn't encourage you or make it very viable to stick to one small crew. In my case, slow Hoffman in a tight knot of constructs doesn't do awful well when the other guy with a caseful of minis can cherry-pick his fast, wide-ranging construct-killers.

Not really. Yes, you determine the strategy and scheme pool before you hire your crew, but that's because Malifaux isn't premised on just lining up and killing your opponent. On the other hand it can be perfectly viable to only use a limited collection. I got a big two day tournament coming up, and I'm pretty much planning on using the same 7 models for all 5 games, even through it's one of each strategy. I got one or two models that might be swapped in, but the difference is a minor one really. I had originally planned on using a different master for one of the games (using nothing but that masters box and a single addition), but since I've only had one game with that master I've decided not to. The one master/crew I'll be using is perfectly capable of playing well in all 5 games.

Hoffman had some specific issues in first edition, I'll grant you that (so slow), and while I haven't played him in 2nd edition yet, so far the balance have been a lot better and the schemes and strategies tightened up so I rather expect him to function better as well.

You can pick up the entire faction of something if you so choose, but it's certainly not required to do well, and in fact most people, at least so far seems to run their crews with a limited selection of models. They might have access to many more models, but that doesn't mean it's automatically going to be much of an advantage.

TimLeeson
18-02-2014, 08:01
I went DIY because I dislike All other companies attempts at alien design. I'm a hard sci-fi fan so I like my aliens to actually look alien. I grew up with Vorlons and Daleks, then later on books like Star Maker and Dragon's Egg; So bugs, bipeds and quadropeds are painfully boring and annoying to look at for me.

Brother Asmodeus
18-02-2014, 11:06
Tom Kirby used to run TSR...

TSR did price themselves out of the market. They used to claim GW was pricey to get into when at the time their core books cost more than a GW boxed game, paint set and modelling gear, army book and extra figures. I kid you not...

Dropped WFB 6 - 7 years ago and 40K is just about to be ignored and my Necrons can enter a sleep again till the rules cycle is fixed.

I am focussing on modelling and painting figures I like which has led to buinyg well away from GW most of the time due to the sheer qulaity of stuff available now and playing Bolt Action.

IJW
18-02-2014, 12:13
TSR UK, not TSR. That's a very different thing...

Davidian
19-02-2014, 18:24
Honestly... I still play Warhammer 40k. But I have So.Much>stuff that I don't need to spent a fortune.

I buy a new rule book every 4 years, a new codex rarely and a new model just as rarely. I suppose that's what 15 years collecting one army does to you.

I think for people who really have the 40k hook under their skin, it's a different matter. I see lots of people who paint 2000points of stuff then sell it for half its worth to start a new army from scratch.

Elswhere stuff...

Dystopian wars is great
Dropzone commander is too

Bloodbowl, necromunda and mordheim... unsupported yes! but free rules online and you can use any models you see fit and they are amazing games written by amazing guys who sadly, either aren't at GW or are so far from the writing end of the stick, they might as well not be there!

The Decayed
19-02-2014, 19:07
My gaming fun for the last 2 years or so have come from Dystopian Wars, Firstorm Armada, Bolt Action, Zombicide(boardgame) and currently building a bunch of plastic vikings for SAGA...
I've been more of a collector/painter, because of all the fresh starts in probably way too many different games, but hell, I've had the best Wargaming fun ever!

zippy77
19-02-2014, 20:29
I really like Infinity these days. I also play a bit of warmahordes, but I have to pick opponents carefully. My biggest issues with warmahordes is that the fluff is kind of meh. I never really got drawn into the world. I think partly because your warcaster is a named uber hero in the world and you have no real way of creating your own unique army / warband etc. The other issue is that there are certain things that just do not work well together in warmahordes.

nosebiter
19-02-2014, 20:58
The fluff is one of the things that has really drawn me to the game. It is very well written and i really like the world. And the amount of different builds each faction can field is quite daunting, but really fun to experiment with.

Infintity doesnt capture me much, i cant put my finger on what it is, but the badly laid out rules is one factor, and the huuuge investment in new terrain i have to make, in order to play the is another factor.

daemonkin
20-02-2014, 13:12
@Nosebiter see what you think of Bushido. It's played on a 2x2 board and requires 4-5 pieces of terrain. I picked up the Japanese buildings from Sarissa and made some Cherry Blossom and Bamboo forests from a seller on ebay.

The models are premium price but all metal and are very well detailed, especially the latter releases.

D.

duffybear1988
20-02-2014, 13:20
and who doesn't like vikings killing stuff...

My Welshmen don't. They end up getting their toe hair matted with blood because they don't like shoes. :p

That's why they prefer to chuck javelins at you from a distance...

Satan
20-02-2014, 13:38
Over here Bushido and Infinity has exploded.

But what I secretly want is confrontation.

daemonkin
20-02-2014, 13:54
@Satan I backed a KS called 'Guilds of Cadwallon' - basically Tic Tac Toe with a Cadwallon theme and CMON promised a revised set of rules for Confrontation but that has yet to materialise.

D.

Satan
20-02-2014, 17:29
@Satan I backed a KS called 'Guilds of Cadwallon' - basically Tic Tac Toe with a Cadwallon theme and CMON promised a revised set of rules for Confrontation but that has yet to materialise.

D.

Yeah, I keep my eyes peeled on the dragonpainting forum and all the relevant pages on FB, and I've collected nearly the entire Drune Range now - I was kind of bummed when CMON launched WOK instead, but I guess it's got to do with the IP which cyanide has a hold of.

I think the Urban Fantasy Skirmish is the niche we're currently missing, though it could be argued that Malifaux has taken that spot, but to me it's more like the film Sugar Punch (or whatever it was called) than Cadwallon.

ashc
20-02-2014, 17:30
Sucker Punch?

Sent from my GT-I8190N using Tapatalk

Verm1s
20-02-2014, 18:23
To expand on an earlier post, my own rules collection...

Hail Caesar (http://store.warlordgames.com/collections/hail-caesar/products/hail-caesar-rulebook)
Pike & Shotte (http://store.warlordgames.com/collections/pike-shotte/products/pike-shotte-rulebook)
Black Powder (http://store.warlordgames.com/collections/black-powder/products/black-powder-rulebook) with The Last Argument of Kings (http://store.warlordgames.com/collections/black-powder/products/black-powder-supplement-the-last-argument-of-kings)
WAB 2 (http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/8003/warhammer-ancient-battles) with Shieldwall (http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgameexpansion/29865/shieldwall)
Warmaster (http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/4985/warmaster)
- Warmaster Ancients (http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/18615/warmaster-ancients)
- Battle of Five Armies (http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/16538/the-battle-of-five-armies)
Epic: Armageddon (http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/10431/epic-armageddon)
Inquisitor (http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/17807/inquisitor) with a bunch of supplements
War of the Ring (http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/42131/war-of-the-ring)
Dux Bellorum (http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/Dux-Bellorum-%E2%80%93-Arthurian-Wargaming-Rules-AD367%E2%80%93793_9781849086806)
Ronin (http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/Ronin-%E2%80%93-Skirmish-Wargames-in-the-Age-of-the-Samurai_9781780968469)
Gutshot (http://www.hawgleg.com)
Dystopian Wars (http://www.spartangames.co.uk/products/dystopian-world/dystopian-wars)
4th-5th Codex Orks
6th Ogre Kingdoms
7th Skaven
And not a BRB in sight...

Digitally, all the Specialist Games, and
Song of Blades and Heroes (http://www.ganeshagames.net/product_info.php?cPath=1_6&products_id=7)
Mayhem (http://bombshell-games.com/mayhem/)
Hordes of the (http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/5369/hordes-of-the-things) Things (http://boardgamegeek.com/weblink/100392/hordes-of-the-things-2nd-edition-rules-download)
Victory Decision: Future Combat (http://www.adpublishing.de/html/future_combat_vide.html)

shelfunit.
20-02-2014, 19:29
Mayhem (http://bombshell-games.com/mayhem/)

I went and bought a copy of that on your recommendation, I've only had a quick flick through, but it looks good so far - enough for me be looking to grab a load of 10mm stuff at Salute in a few weeks.

Verm1s
21-02-2014, 00:05
Don't forget there's a couple of days left on this (http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/evil-men-fantasy-10mm-miniatures/x/1957115), too. :D (And in the interests of the topic, here's (http://www.lead-adventure.de/index.php?topic=61427.0) a wee reason I held onto some army books)

A few weeks 'til Salute? Jings, I need to sell some stuff...

shelfunit.
21-02-2014, 07:19
Don't forget there's a couple of days left on this (http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/evil-men-fantasy-10mm-miniatures/x/1957115), too.

Now I know why Mayhem sounded familiar when I saw you link it....

The_Real_Chris
21-02-2014, 17:29
My god Salute! Thanks for the reminder, must buy ticket!

The_Real_Chris
21-02-2014, 17:29
What the hell, no bring and buy?

Herzlos
21-02-2014, 17:33
Yeah they've dropped it this year; I think there was too much volunteer work involved and concerns about liability. It's a shame because the B&B's are a bit draw for other shows.

shelfunit.
21-02-2014, 18:05
My god Salute! Thanks for the reminder, must buy ticket!

Thought about getting in advance, but it only saves 50p and I can't guarantee getting there early - any other reason to buy early?

Autumn Leaves
21-02-2014, 18:55
I'm soooo glad that Salute has dropped the shabby old school bring and buy. All we ever got was over priced miniatures for sale Yaaaaawn, in it's place there will be a lot moe boutique miniatures manufacturers, thaw a serious upgrade in my book over a sad old B+B.
There are loads of better B+B's at other conventions.

Litcheur
21-02-2014, 20:51
Switched to both new shiny games and good ol' classics.

Dystopian Wars just works great here. Warmahordes too, but I haven't tried it yet. I don't like it too much, some player seem to take that page 5 stuff way too seriously...
Still have to try Infinity. Seems great.

Good ol' classics like BloodBowl, Mordheim and HOTT are experiencing a nice revival, and they are quite enjoyable.

The_Real_Chris
21-02-2014, 22:44
Thought about getting in advance, but it only saves 50p and I can't guarantee getting there early - any other reason to buy early?

If you buy in advance you get to queue for one hour. If you buy on the door you get to queue for 2 hours...

Hell if they wanted volunteers I would have cheerfully done it for half a day. But they need space more than staff, it really is madness trying to get to the tables. Apparently a lot of theft as well. I think a fleamarket system would be superior.

skammadix
22-02-2014, 06:07
Warmahordes too, but I haven't tried it yet. I don't like it too much, some player seem to take that page 5 stuff way too seriously...
This is the case both here locally, and on the internet. They seem to be forgetting/ignoring point 5 on the list though.

shelfunit.
22-02-2014, 08:18
If you buy in advance you get to queue for one hour. If you buy on the door you get to queue for 2 hours...

Hell if they wanted volunteers I would have cheerfully done it for half a day. But they need space more than staff, it really is madness trying to get to the tables. Apparently a lot of theft as well. I think a fleamarket system would be superior.

Interesting - the only other two times I have been, I've been on a demo table, so was there hours before opening, which was great, but I only had about 30mins in total to get all my shopping done, which was fun, but hectic. I've not heard much about any shoplifting, but I guess that it is a problem with these sorts of events. On reflection an advance ticket is probably best, you have convinced me :)

paddyalexander
22-02-2014, 08:34
The whole "Page 5" thing was an over the top tongue in cheek mission statement in Mark 1. A variant of it appeared in ever rulebook and expansion PP published. It then got adopted by win at all costs ******* as an excuse for their anti-social behaviour with was officially stated as against the intent of the statement and many of these so called players got booted from official tournies and leagues for cheating.

In Mark 2 we got a revised Page 5 (see my signature) and it only appears in the core rulebooks. I find Warmachine & Hordes great games to play as a casual/fluffy player because the systems rules are so well written/balanced that it is very hard to break them when using home brewed rules & narrative scenarios.

skammadix
22-02-2014, 10:38
It then got adopted by win at all costs ******* as an excuse for their anti-social behaviour
And this doesn't seem to have changed a whole lot, was my point.

paddyalexander
22-02-2014, 12:57
And this doesn't seem to have changed a whole lot, was my point.

There seems to be a misconception that this is the norm in Warmachine when that is farther from the truth. In fact I've had more problems dealing with these types of players in gwPLCs' games systems over the years than with Warmachine (I've been playing for 8 years). I've had a much better experience playing PPs' games in tournaments and leagues than any other companies' system and 99% of the people I've met and played agaianst have been awesome. In fact the only 2 win at all costs players I've encountered in competitive Warmachine events were well known (locally and not positively) 40k players and seemed to have simply carried over their attitudes to the game.

Privateer Press as a game company never encouraged such behaviour and their game systems make such behaviour net to impossible with no loop holes, no vague rules open to multiple interpretations and a zero tolerance to that behaviour from their Press Gangers in official events.

Scaryscarymushroom
22-02-2014, 17:02
Warmahordes too, but I haven't tried it yet. I don't like it too much, some player seem to take that page 5 stuff way too seriously...

This isn't the case where I live, either. When I was a GW fanboy I used page 5 as an excuse to hate warmachine without even trying it. It's easy to dislike a game when you convince yourself that the fifth page of their rulebook is a directive to act like a testosterone junkie (that's not really what it's about but if you see, or ever saw, WM/H as a threat to your gaming community then you will probably see it that way). MKI's was a challenge to players to actually take the game and have fun with it instead of complaining about game balance.

The problem with saying "this game is not for sissies" is that you categorize your potential new recruits into casual/competitive, and then lose anyone who isn't looking for a competitive experience. Compile that with the stereotype that all competitive players are WAAC jerks, and from the outside looking in it appears that the game designers are creating a WAAC haven, where people with bad attitudes hang out. It's just not true in my experience.

It may very well be (I'm honestly not sure but at any rate I don't mean to offend anyone) that the vast majority of highly competitive GW players are WAAC cheaters and rules lawyers. GW fails to deliver a competitive rules set. It's fine for some people, because the fluff and the community are what it's really about. If GW were the only game in town, then players would have only three options:

1) Go casual. Be complacent. Stop caring so much about the rules, and compensate for the game's inherent unfairness by either starting a new army, focusing on non-game parts of the hobby, or agreeing with your opponent to play only "fluffy" or "beardy" lists because, even though playing is more important than winning, a game can easily be a bad experience if a player's expectations are not met;
2) Go WAAC. Care about the rules anyway and join the class system, where players at the top who just happened to love GKs, or players at the bottom who just happened to love Sisters of Battle. Or some variation on this theme. It could be that the players on the top just really like Heldrakes. Anyway, the players at the bottom are the ones that build up the bad reputation. There comes a point where their only chance of winning is to find a loophole and exploit it. The players at the top might also do a little bit of loophole finding, but at this point the whole purpose behind the game has been corrupted. You're arguing about rules instead of playing. But you stick with the game because your friends play, and the models are cool.
3) Quit wargaming. Let's face it, no one likes to lose every time they play. And arguing about rules in some feign attempt to find a way to win isn't fun either.

Casual players end up picking option 1 and settling for less. Rude annoying people go with option 2. Good people that aren't complacent go with option 3. GW gets a lot of option 1, a little bit of option 2, and none of option 3. A game that "isn't for sissies" gets a lot of option 3, a little bit of option 2, and none of option 1.

Edit: bah phone. That doesn't mean there aren't casual warmachine players, but the ones that got there are there despite the MKI page 5. Mkii page 5 is much better as a philosophy than its predecessor. The original was more of a call to action. Damn the status quo and all that nonsense.

Also, there are jerks everywhere. Antisocial people aren't made any more or less antisocial because of the game they play.

Chucklemoney
23-02-2014, 09:20
There are just so many good games out there nowadays that I struggle to understand how people are finding it difficult to find a non GW game that suits their needs.

As others have mentioned, Privateer Press seem to really be enjoying an expansion of their player base, and with good reason too, as it is a very nicely balanced, simple but detailed ruleset that I have found leaves very little room for mis-interpretation.

There is also a plethora of really good skirmish games out there at the moment, with my personal faves being Malifaux and Godslayer but with the likes of Infinity, MERCs, Eden, Helldorado, Bushido all doing interesting things at 28mm(ish) then the world of non GW gaming looks really good.

That's before you even look at any of the following:

X-Wing
Flames of War
Bolt Action
Empire of the Dead
Dropzone Commander
Dystopian Wars/Firestorm Armada
etc,etc,etc.

Whilst I still get the odd pang where I wish I still had a 40K army for a quick game, all I would say to anyone tempted to try something a little different is to come on in, the water's lovely.

Litcheur
23-02-2014, 13:23
The problem with saying "this game is not for sissies" is that you categorize your potential new recruits into casual/competitive, and then lose anyone who isn't looking for a competitive experience. Compile that with the stereotype that all competitive players are WAAC jerks, and from the outside looking in it appears that the game designers are creating a WAAC haven, where people with bad attitudes hang out.
Your description is pretty accurate. :D

There are so many games out there, and unfortunately, I don't have an infinite amount of time. Or money. And I have to make choices.

If you listen to wargamers, all games are just wonderful. Sorry Warmachine, but I've been a GW player before, and I know how players can - consciously or unconsciously - bend the truth to make their favorite game more appealing to beginners. Fool me once, fool me twice... You just have to judge for yourself, even if sometimes it means having to judge the book by its cover.

And that cover can be unappealling to casual players. However, it's not about having to deal with WAAC players, rule lawyers or ********.

I used to play Sisters of Battle, if you know what I mean. Playing battle after battle and being crushed without having the slightest opportunity to retaliate is not always fun. :o

It's not about balance either. It's just about being a casual gamer in an Łber-competitive environment. Think chess : the game is quite balanced, but against some players, you just know you have no chance. So what's the point?

I don't want to buy all the necessary stuff, and then discover that the cold truth is I have to "study Warmachine" for hours in order to be remotely competitive... I know judging the book by the cover is bad, bad, BAD. But I just have to decide if I want spend any money or time on that game. Or on other systems.

Warmachine may be a nice game, but there are choices out there that may just look more appealing...

EldarWolf
25-02-2014, 14:20
Bolt Action
Wings of Glory/Wings of War
Ronin
SAGA
In Her Majesty's Name
A Crowning Mercy
Donnybrook
Legends of the Old West

bosky
27-02-2014, 18:21
Whenever possible I've moved to playing games I've designed. That way I can tailor the system to what me and my gaming group thinks is fun :) Plus it's easy to use my old minis for a wide variety of genres.

Otherwise some X-Wing Miniatures when I want a bunch of quick games in a night, some Firestorm Armada if I'm in a "heavier" space mood, some D&D if I have a great idea for a character, some Android Netrunner if I can convince people to play, etc.

Sephillion
27-02-2014, 19:42
Iím moving more and more towards PP. I find everything cheaper than GW. Especially books. I love to read codices and army books, even if I donít play the army, but since Eldar I bought no codices and bought the army books instead. There are also a lot of things that are moderately priced. So if I have 20-30$ on my hobby budget, I can buy something. Iíd be hard pressed to find something in that price range with GW. Aside from small HQs at 25$, which I find ludicrous.

I might try Malifaux. One of my friend enjoys it a lot. Other games arenít really as big here, it seems. Itís either GW or PP.

daemonkin
28-02-2014, 09:58
The Malifaux community is some of the nicest people playing TT games. We are very active on Twitter and Facebook and the company mostly listens graciously and is happy to provide Errata and FAQs (every other month in fact is scheduled for potential updates).

D.

warhammergrimace
01-03-2014, 21:36
Ganesha Games; Songs of Blades and Heroes
flying Lead
Ronin
Deadzone
Legends of the High Seas
Necromunda
D&D board games
A Very British Civil War
Da Clash
Warpath
flashing Steel by Ganesha Games
Mordheim
Dux Britannium

Crovax20
02-03-2014, 13:40
Last 2 years ive drifted away from GW games, trying all sorts of different games... None have really stuck though..... But that is more due to lack of other players and lack of effort to get others enthused about other games.

Most of our wargamers have drifted over to boardgames, rpg, or stopped showing up at all at the club.

Right now ive been picking up DZC and dreadball, who both seem to catch some traction

Hicks
05-03-2014, 07:15
I picked up quite a lot of wargames in the last few years, but the one I play the most is Warmahordes. Honestly, after trying out other stuff... I really can't see myself picking up a new GW army ever again.

Steam_Giant
05-03-2014, 09:53
Nice to see a lot of love for Osprey games in this thread.

Infinity, Malifaux, X wing and Dreadball seem to be the increasing in popularity at my local club

azza88
05-03-2014, 10:27
I've tried Warmachine twice in the past and I just don't like it, I much prefer 40k. With that said I'm playing more flames of war, SAGA, x-wing, and soon starting infinity these days where year ago it would of only been 40k.

williamsond
05-03-2014, 14:53
I'm starting to see alot of the young gamers ditching 40k and starting D&D because its cheap to get into and after initial cost you don't have to buy much else unless you really want to... D&D the cheap option who would have thought we would see the day.

Coldhatred
06-03-2014, 16:30
D&D has always been a cheap option.

I've gone into historical games for the most part.

theredknight
17-03-2014, 16:46
here in spain many are moving from warhammer to avatars of war warthrone.
better and free rules and better prices