PDA

View Full Version : How much is your time really worth?



Dark_Kindred
16-02-2014, 20:54
This is not a Games Workshop price discussion.

Years ago in my first class on microeconomics the instructor conducted a survey. In short, she polled the class on how many hours per week they would be willing to work at a given hourly wage. Not surprisingly, as the hourly wage increased so too did work hours increase. To a point. Once a certain weekly income was reached, the total number of hours willingly worked decreased as individuals opted for more leisure time relative to work time. This makes intuitive sense: an incredibly poor paying job does not create good incentives for work whereas higher paying wage jobs do until finally most of the basics are affordable at wage y and work people work less.

It is well known how very costly and time consuming wargaming and Warhammer specifically are. However, if you were to figure in the less observable costs of the hobby are, your jaw may drop. These are very lazy and very back of the envelop calculations but the idea is to get the ball rolling. Suppose that a typical army collection consisted of 60 models (yeah, right) and that the typical amount of time an active hobbyist spent on assembling, converting, and painting models was about 2.76 hours per model (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?1684-POLL-How-long-do-you-spend-painting-each-miniature).* That means that an army would take roughly 165.6 man hours to complete. If you were really lazy and assumed that an hour of leisure is equivalent of an hour of minimum wage labor, the dollar value of your hobby time is roughly $1,200 per army. Likewise, if we assume that there are 16 man hours available in a day, that 8 are spent working, and that an individual were to work 23 days per month then your hobby time (no games) would consume about 4.6% of your annual leisure time. Period.

Just for laughs, what is the amount of money that Agent X would have to pay you to get you to exit the hobby forever? Conversely, how much would your annual income need to be reduced to be price out of the hobby?


*Being lazy and rounding up. Also, rolling all of the attendant activities into one number to justify rounding.

Minsc
16-02-2014, 21:07
2,76 hours per model? Must be a very slow or very precise painter.

I'd say 2,76 hours per (10 man) unit is more close to the truth regarding myself. :P

Langdon
16-02-2014, 21:50
2,76 hours per model? Must be a very slow or very precise painter.

I'd say 2,76 hours per (10 man) unit is more close to the truth regarding myself. :P

I only spend ~3hours on a model as it can take years to paint them.

But i do agree.. most spend less than 3 hours on a unit. maybe a flat 3 waiting for washes to dry

MasterDecoy
16-02-2014, 21:53
2,76 hours per model? Must be a very slow or very precise painter.

I'd say 2,76 hours per (10 man) unit is more close to the truth regarding myself. :P

yeah, sounds a little high for infantry, I typically spend about 10-15 minutes assembling and cutting, and about an hour to paint each guy, (im not partically skilled, but they do look alright on the table).

but I guess he's rounding for tanks and stuff, those take ages, probably half hour to 45 to assemble and cut a tank, and typically 2 to 3 hours painting.

Dark_Kindred
16-02-2014, 21:58
2,76 hours per model? Must be a very slow or very precise painter.

I'd say 2,76 hours per (10 man) unit is more close to the truth regarding myself. :P


2,76 hours per model? Must be a very slow or very precise painter.

I'd say 2,76 hours per (10 man) unit is more close to the truth regarding myself. :P

First off, I would like to thank you for trying to poison the well.

That's the beauty of averages Minsc: you are not necessarily representative but are also relevant as a data point. To be sure, another measure (like median time spent). You use that single survey, the median time comes out to be less than two hours for painting, perhaps a little more than two once you figure in cutting, filing, basing, converting...which I explicitly stated. While it is true that the polling data is likely biased in the sense that "slow or precise" painters are likely to report it is also a readily accessible poll with 62 data points as opposed to one snarky remark.

Also, for the sake of clarity: a model is not necessarily an infantry model. A Wraithknight (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3250583a_99120104030_Wraithknight01_873x627.jpg), for example, is a model as is a Landraider (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/Product/AlternativeFW/xlarge/LRPrometheus3.jpg). I myself, like you, fall into the "10 man squad in about an hour) category. That said, the people who actually paint their armies at all of the store within an hour of my home (about 6, possibly 8) are overwhelmingly display armies that take far more than 3 hours per model to paint. I will draw attention to BlueSky's tournament pictures, specifically Jan 4 and September 15. Models on display/played with at the former Seattle Battle Bunker (https://www.facebook.com/GWSeattleBunker) are/were of superb quality and clearly took more than an hour to paint (see December/November pics).

Again, I would like to thank you for voicing your opinion by using yourself as a representative data point, not actually reading the assumptions I made, and for equating a 10 man Tactical Squad and the like as entirely representative of all models.

Menthak
16-02-2014, 22:56
[U][B]Just for laughs, what is the amount of money that Agent X would have to pay you to get you to exit the hobby forever?

Agent X would have to pay about 25 a day for me to leave the hobby.


[U][B]Conversely, how much would your annual income need to be reduced to be price out of the hobby?

About 35% I'd say, so basically all my spare salary (Give or take).

gwarsh41
16-02-2014, 23:13
I spend about 3 hours per space wolf, maybe an hour per plaguebearer. I spent about 30 min working on my lone wolfs face the other night. Still not too happy with it.

This is my biggest hobby, sure, I read and play video games, but I don't consider those to be hobbies like this is. Assembling and painting is much more relaxing and enveloping, and playing the game is vastly enjoyable. It would cost a lot of money to get me to stop forever, I really cannot say how much. As for how broke I would have to be? Cut my wifes income and there you go, I cannot afford anymore more models. Though I would still paint and play with what I have. So income reduced by 1/3.

Danny76
17-02-2014, 00:21
2,76 hours per model? Must be a very slow or very precise painter.

I'd say 2,76 hours per (10 man) unit is more close to the truth regarding myself. :P

I'd love to buy a ten man box at 6 on the way home from work and have it finished by ten that night (excludes spray drying and getting my dinner).
2 1/2 hours per model total is probably about right for me, and I don't have ten layers and highlights on mine or any of all that..

mpepperdine
17-02-2014, 00:58
2,76 hours per model? Must be a very slow or very precise painter.

I'd say 2,76 hours per (10 man) unit is more close to the truth regarding myself. :P

I'm painting Chaos Warriors and Eldar at the moment, and it's taking more than that per model.

I'm not an amazing painter (I'd say somewhere above average), but I'm a bit obsessed with getting everything perfect.
As in there can't be a tiny bit of paint in the wrong areas at all.

hazmiter
17-02-2014, 01:08
For my self, the time per model depends on the ammount of detail.
Im doing quartered armour for my marines ( still getting used to the technique ).
So on average its 30 minutes to prep it, paint the quartered parts and get the model table ready, then for details it takes a further 25-30 minutes......
Longest i spent painting a model... 14 hours. ( arch father Gabriel )

Minsc
17-02-2014, 02:43
Again, I would like to thank you for voicing your opinion by using yourself as a representative data point, not actually reading the assumptions I made, and for equating a 10 man Tactical Squad and the like as entirely representative of all models.

Your sarcasm is duly noted.

That's the beauty of stating something regarding myself Dark_Kindred: It doesn't have to be an average, since I'm only talking about one individual (me). I'm not making a blanket statement about all painters around the globe.


I'd love to buy a ten man box at 6 on the way home from work and have it finished by ten that night (excludes spray drying and getting my dinner).

That sounds about right. The problem for me isn't the time it takes to paint, it's actually getting started in the first place.

Sir Didymus
17-02-2014, 04:42
He'd pay me, so I'd have more hobby money? Think I'll go for muscle cars, so I can continue with my airbrushing - anyone have any idea how much that costs? ;)

wanderingblade
17-02-2014, 07:58
It's at times like these that I'm happy that I'm a fairly shameless tinboy, happy to use models brought off ebay already built and painted.

All of the guys doing three hours a model, they're (mostly) very happy doing it and get an awful lot from it, so I'd imagine they'd call the time well spent. I wish I had the patience to become good enough to satisfy myself, and one day I will... but yeah.

How much to get me to stop? Hmm... not sure. House deposit in London maybe?

C.L.
17-02-2014, 08:32
2,76 hours per model? Must be a very slow or very precise painter.

I'd say 2,76 hours per (10 man) unit is more close to the truth regarding myself. :P
16 minutes per model ? Wow pretty impressive...

You use the same technique as Homer ?

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130427074514/simpsons/pt/images/6/6f/Makeup_gun.gif

Karak Norn Clansman
17-02-2014, 08:55
Cleaning, assembling, converting and fully painting a miniature may take everything between 2 to 12 hours for me. Usually it's only well-sculpted rabble class units like Mantic Undead which can be done in 1-2 hours per miniature (with about as high standard as the more complicated ones), whilst Skaven takes a little longer time. Most miniatures, like Dwarfs, take approximately six hours each, more or less.

Almost always, that's time well spent. Coupled with duties and the like, it means my armies are very slow in coming, but they're eventually getting finished. The absence of fully-painted armies meant that my gaming group collectively bought a large painted Tomb Kings army off Swedish Ebay to use for some years before our armies looks decent and completed, and then probably sell off.

Szalik
17-02-2014, 08:59
OP, I would give myself 2,5 hours per model of active working on an infantry miniature. Cutting, assembling, undercoating and painting. I can assemble and paint guardsman to an acceptable (to me, I have a bit higher expectations than 3 colors min/max tournament standard painting) level in an hour, but I tend to spend even up to 5x more time on ICs, elite squads etc, that I like and paint a lot.

For a vehicle, that's much more difficult to be accurate, but let's say ~7 hours ( really much more difficult for me to be accurate here, I do not do vehicles during one painting session, some of them take me years to complete). I do not use airbrush.

Infantry hmm let me count, 127 for guard, 109 for SM, 61 for SoB, 27 for GK, that gives 324 x 2,5 = 810 hours.
It looks like that so far I've done 18 vehicles = 126 hours.

To use your 2,76 per model that gives me 943,92 hours (provided I haven't messed anything up).

Counting in all the auxiliary activities 1k hours is probably true.

Now to answer Your questions, I think they would have to pay me daily to take away my miniatures and keep me out of this hobby. 20 pounds should be enough.

When I have some spare money I will put a bit into the hobby. When I don't, then I won't buy anything for like a year or so.

Bloodknight
17-02-2014, 10:19
16 minutes per model ? Wow pretty impressive...

That sounds like smearing a helpless model with paint, not painting, yeah.

C.L.
17-02-2014, 11:00
That sounds like smearing a helpless model with paint, not painting, yeah.
Yep, I was ironic...

Minsc
17-02-2014, 11:12
16 minutes per model ? Wow pretty impressive...

I didn't say it actually took me 2,76 hours to paint a 10 man squad; I said that it's takes closer to 2,76 hours for me to paint a squad, than 2,76 hours to paint a single model.

Let's say it would take 2,76 hours (or 2 hours 45 min) to paint a single model; that's over 27 hours to paint a full squad. If I painted 4 hours every day it would mean it would take almost 7 days to complete the squad.
That seems very long in my opinion. 5-6 hours on the other hand, sounds about right: I don't paint my models one-by-one, but more akin to a assembley-line; I paint the same "area/details" on all 10 models, which means that by the time I'm done with the last one, the first one(s) has dried so I can go on to paint the next area/detail, and so forth.

Granted, I won't be winning any golden daemon-awards any time soon, but I'd consider myself slightly above average. I aim to keep a good TT-standard which doesn't fall together entirely upon closer inspection. :)

Dr.Clock
17-02-2014, 13:35
How much to pay me to quit the hobby? What the hell else am I gonna do with all this spare time? I've never been able to seriously play computer games... I'm currently on a scholarship in China, doing self-directed research, and painting is one of the few things keeping me going... It's hobby: we work SO THAT we can have these hobbies... don't we? At a certain point, it seems like a ridiculous hypothetical...

As far as being priced out, I'm at the point now where my existing collection is big enough that I could keep improving it for years for little or no cost... I'm not sure I could ever bring myself to part with my armies, no matter how bad things got financially. I've been a 'professional student' for a really long time. I DO get by on essentially no new purchases for years at a time. Indeed, I don't think I bought anything since the last daemons release... When I start to feel flush, that's when I splurge on a few hundred dollars' worth of minis, but that happens only occasionally. It's a good thing I've been in the hobby for almost 20 years; I probably couldn't afford to get into it now, although I do have no problem buying mongrel hordes on ebay...

So yeah... it's an interesting thought, but this hobby really is in my blood... even aside from the actual 'doing' of painting and playing, the fluff and really just keeping up with rules and building cool lists, planning potential projects for the future, are just as much of the hobby, and take probably just as much of my time.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Reinholt
17-02-2014, 13:42
I didn't say it actually took me 2,76 hours to paint a 10 man squad; I said that it's takes closer to 2,76 hours for me to paint a squad, than 2,76 hours to paint a single model.

Let's say it would take 2,76 hours (or 2 hours 45 min) to paint a single model; that's over 27 hours to paint a full squad. If I painted 4 hours every day it would mean it would take almost 7 days to complete the squad.
That seems very long in my opinion. 5-6 hours on the other hand, sounds about right: I don't paint my models one-by-one, but more akin to a assembley-line; I paint the same "area/details" on all 10 models, which means that by the time I'm done with the last one, the first one(s) has dried so I can go on to paint the next area/detail, and so forth.

Granted, I won't be winning any golden daemon-awards any time soon, but I'd consider myself slightly above average. I aim to keep a good TT-standard which doesn't fall together entirely upon closer inspection. :)

On the flip side of the coin, I have one army (thank goodness it's Deathwing) where I've spent at least 5 hours per model, on average. This is partially because I naturally paint at the speed of a crippled three-toed sloth that has taken roofies, but whatever.

As to me, given what I do, there's probably no amount someone could reasonably be willing to pay to get me not to hobby. We're talking easily into the hundreds of thousands of dollars per year, if not millions, for me not to bother, and then, it's only temporary enough until I can literally not work at all and live off investment income, at which point I get back to hobbying. Likewise, my income would have to fall by over 90% for me to stop. However, I appear to be slowly cutting out GW anyways and moving to other companies, but that is a different discussion.

Also, however, I'd like to make a point about human irrationality in your first post: a lot of people make the mistake of allowing their supply of labor to fall at higher labor prices for "more leisure time", but this will actually provide them with less leisure time. The problem is that people are very bad at understanding how much money they will need for how long in the future. If you work more and more at high wages now, and then you actually SAVE that money, you can begin accumulating investment capital and end up one of those people who retires at 40. We are bad at valuing our own time and options. Also, if I've ever given one piece of advice on this board to people that is actually worth anything, it's probably this: save as much money as you can. Always.

Dark_Kindred
18-02-2014, 00:24
He'd pay me, so I'd have more hobby money? Think I'll go for muscle cars, so I can continue with my airbrushing - anyone have any idea how much that costs? file:///C:\Users\Geoffrey\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\ 01\clip_image002.gif Depending on how good you are, you can have a positive income… unless you’re buying the cars… I suppose you can have your cake and eat it too if you do custom work on the side along with wargaming.

How much to pay me to quit the hobby? What the hell else am I gonna do with all this spare time? I've never been able to seriously play computer games... I'm currently on a scholarship in China, doing self-directed research, and painting is one of the few things keeping me going... It's hobby: we work SO THAT we can have these hobbies... don't we? At a certain point, it seems like a ridiculous hypothetical...

I assumed we worked to earn money so we could pay for a home, food, and future disaster. Those who happen to have won the life lottery and have enough disposable income to engage in hobbies like wargaming are probably past that point in terms of income/personal wealth. The ability to engage in joy giving activities because of our disposable income is a happy plus.
With respect to what you could do: Read, write, watch TV, watch movies, travel, hike, ski, exercise, yoga, carpentry, painting, sculpting, singing, composing, role playing, sex, volunteering, philanthropy, and so on and so forth.



As far as being priced out, I'm at the point now where my existing collection is big enough that I could keep improving it for years for little or no cost... I'm not sure I could ever bring myself to part with my armies, no matter how bad things got financially. I've been a 'professional student' for a really long time. I DO get by on essentially no new purchases for years at a time. Indeed, I don't think I bought anything since the last daemons release... When I start to feel flush, that's when I splurge on a few hundred dollars' worth of minis, but that happens only occasionally. It's a good thing I've been in the hobby for almost 20 years; I probably couldn't afford to get into it now, although I do have no problem buying mongrel hordes on ebay...

I doubt you would say that if someone was ready to hand you that money. As they say, every man has his price.


So yeah... it's an interesting thought, but this hobby really is in my blood... even aside from the actual 'doing' of painting and playing, the fluff and really just keeping up with rules and building cool lists, planning potential projects for the future, are just as much of the hobby, and take probably just as much of my time.

I'm with you there. The everything else (including forums for the hobby) takes up way more time than the hobby itself. I also derive way more enjoyment from those activities. The ability to socialize is also a plus and is probably the most important unintended consequence of the hobby/game.



Also, however, I'd like to make a point about human irrationality in your first post: a lot of people make the mistake of allowing their supply of labor to fall at higher labor prices for "more leisure time", but this will actually provide them with less leisure time. The problem is that people are very bad at understanding how much money they will need for how long in the future. If you work more and more at high wages now, and then you actually SAVE that money, you can begin accumulating investment capital and end up one of those people who retires at 40. We are bad at valuing our own time and options. Also, if I've ever given one piece of advice on this board to people that is actually worth anything, it's probably this: save as much money as you can. Always.

I don't think the lesson drawn in that first economics class was necessarily one of irrationality. Time worked only started curving backwards once wages hit $40 per hour (so about 90 grand @ 40 hours per week). Leisure/rest is clearly valuable, both from a happiness standpoint and an actual productivity standpoint. Many people think that sleep is wasted time, for example, and Americans are somewhat sleep deprived on average. The impact on actual productivity and cognitive functions can be pretty severe (http://www.ted.com/talks/russell_foster_why_do_we_sleep.html). We have all seen and experienced the effects of burnout. Another consideration is that the ability to travel, do extreme sports, go to college, etc is generally more valuable/doable while you're young. That said, if an individual worked an additional one hour per work day in WA state (~$10) at minimum wage that individual would be able contract a level 5 paint job through Blue Table Painting for 1750 points worth of models.***

You are extremely right about the value of saving money.
*** I used Dark Eldar when asking for a quote. For reference, the models I listed included 3 HQs, 40 infantry models, 6 Jetbikes, 2 Raiders, 4 Venoms, 3 Ravagers, 1 Razorwing Jetfighter.


Your sarcasm is duly noted.

That's the beauty of stating something regarding myself Dark_Kindred: It doesn't have to be an average, since I'm only talking about one individual (me). I'm not making a blanket statement about all painters around the globe.


That is exactly what you did. You can come to that conclusion by actually reading what you wrote and how you wrote it.

2,76 hours per model? Must be a very slow or very precise painter.

I'd say 2,76 hours per (10 man) unit is more close to the truth regarding myself. :P
I gave you a figure. You response is basically “I don’t believe that figure.” That is fine. You did so in a way that implies that “this number is biased because you have very slow or very anal people are creating a biased figure because slow and precise are both uncommon with respect to “average”. You then gave a narrow example with a total paint time closer to 20-30 minutes per model and concluded with a flippant emoticon. The implication is either “I am much faster than all of you, **** y’all” or “I believe that the time input by people like myself is more representative. You’re figure is unrepresentative.”
Because you basically said, “this figure is bust because you have slow and precise people mucking the number” in your first paragraph the second interpretation makes more sense.
When C.L. called you out with his masterful Simpson’s .gif, you say that you were equivocating in the first place.

I didn't say it actually took me 2,76 hours to paint a 10 man squad; I said that it's takes closer to 2,76 hours for me to paint a squad, than 2,76 hours to paint a single model.
You revert to your initial point, which is that 165 minutes per Tactical Marine seems like a long time. I think that you are right. The thing is that I never said Tactical Marine or even infantry model but model. You are more narrowly defined two that I explicitly defined broadly not once, but twice. I stated this twice, both in OP and in a post directed directly at you. I also stated that the 2.76 was arrived at because I rounded up and rolled into all attendant activities. I did this because, like you, I was suspicious of the survey numbers. To address your concern, I also gave you the median number (2 hours per model) to give you a more representative figure.




Let's say it would take 2,76 hours (or 2 hours 45 min) to paint a single model; that's over 27 hours to paint a full squad. If I painted 4 hours every day it would mean it would take almost 7 days to complete the squad.
You then cite a common painting technique as the reason why your numbers are comparatively low, discounting the possibility that those surveyed use the exact same painting technique.


That seems very long in my opinion. 5-6 hours on the other hand, sounds about right: I don't paint my models one-by-one, but more akin to a assembley-line; I paint the same "area/details" on all 10 models, which means that by the time I'm done with the last one, the first one(s) has dried so I can go on to paint the next area/detail, and so forth.


He'd pay me, so I'd have more hobby money? Think I'll go for muscle cars, so I can continue with my airbrushing - anyone have any idea how much that costs? file:///C:\Users\Geoffrey\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\ 01\clip_image002.gif Depending on how good you are, you can have a positive income… unless you’re buying the cars… I suppose you can have your cake and eat it too if you do custom work on the side along with wargaming.

How much to pay me to quit the hobby? What the hell else am I gonna do with all this spare time? I've never been able to seriously play computer games... I'm currently on a scholarship in China, doing self-directed research, and painting is one of the few things keeping me going... It's hobby: we work SO THAT we can have these hobbies... don't we? At a certain point, it seems like a ridiculous hypothetical...

I assumed we worked to earn money so we could pay for a home, food, and future disaster. Those who happen to have won the life lottery and have enough disposable income to engage in hobbies like wargaming are probably past that point in terms of income/personal wealth. The ability to engage in joy giving activities because of our disposable income is a happy plus.
With respect to what you could do: Read, write, watch TV, watch movies, travel, hike, ski, exercise, yoga, carpentry, painting, sculpting, singing, composing, role playing, sex, volunteering, philanthropy, and so on and so forth.



As far as being priced out, I'm at the point now where my existing collection is big enough that I could keep improving it for years for little or no cost... I'm not sure I could ever bring myself to part with my armies, no matter how bad things got financially. I've been a 'professional student' for a really long time. I DO get by on essentially no new purchases for years at a time. Indeed, I don't think I bought anything since the last daemons release... When I start to feel flush, that's when I splurge on a few hundred dollars' worth of minis, but that happens only occasionally. It's a good thing I've been in the hobby for almost 20 years; I probably couldn't afford to get into it now, although I do have no problem buying mongrel hordes on ebay...

I doubt you would say that if someone was ready to hand you that money. As they say, every man has his price.


So yeah... it's an interesting thought, but this hobby really is in my blood... even aside from the actual 'doing' of painting and playing, the fluff and really just keeping up with rules and building cool lists, planning potential projects for the future, are just as much of the hobby, and take probably just as much of my time.

I'm with you there. The everything else (including forums for the hobby) takes up way more time than the hobby itself. I also derive way more enjoyment from those activities. The ability to socialize is also a plus and is probably the most important unintended consequence of the hobby/game.



Also, however, I'd like to make a point about human irrationality in your first post: a lot of people make the mistake of allowing their supply of labor to fall at higher labor prices for "more leisure time", but this will actually provide them with less leisure time. The problem is that people are very bad at understanding how much money they will need for how long in the future. If you work more and more at high wages now, and then you actually SAVE that money, you can begin accumulating investment capital and end up one of those people who retires at 40. We are bad at valuing our own time and options. Also, if I've ever given one piece of advice on this board to people that is actually worth anything, it's probably this: save as much money as you can. Always.

I don't think the lesson drawn in that first economics class was necessarily one of irrationality. Time worked only started curving backwards once wages hit $40 per hour (so about 90 grand @ 40 hours per week). Leisure/rest is clearly valuable, both from a happiness standpoint and an actual productivity standpoint. Many people think that sleep is wasted time, for example, and Americans are somewhat sleep deprived on average. The impact on actual productivity and cognitive functions can be pretty severe (http://www.ted.com/talks/russell_foster_why_do_we_sleep.html). We have all seen and experienced the effects of burnout. Another consideration is that the ability to travel, do extreme sports, go to college, etc is generally more valuable/doable while you're young. That said, if an individual worked an additional one hour per work day in WA state (~$10) at minimum wage that individual would be able contract a level 5 paint job through Blue Table Painting for 1750 points worth of models.***

You are extremely right about the value of saving money.
*** I used Dark Eldar when asking for a quote. For reference, the models I listed included 3 HQs, 40 infantry models, 6 Jetbikes, 2 Raiders, 4 Venoms, 3 Ravagers, 1 Razorwing Jetfighter.


Your sarcasm is duly noted.

That's the beauty of stating something regarding myself Dark_Kindred: It doesn't have to be an average, since I'm only talking about one individual (me). I'm not making a blanket statement about all painters around the globe.


That is exactly what you did. You can come to that conclusion by actually reading what you wrote and how you wrote it.

2,76 hours per model? Must be a very slow or very precise painter.

I'd say 2,76 hours per (10 man) unit is more close to the truth regarding myself. :P
I gave you a figure. You response is basically “I don’t believe that figure.” That is fine. You did so in a way that implies that “this number is biased because you have very slow or very anal people are creating a biased figure because slow and precise are both uncommon with respect to “average”. You then gave a narrow example with a total paint time closer to 20-30 minutes per model and concluded with a flippant emoticon. The implication is either “I am much faster than all of you, **** y’all” or “I believe that the time input by people like myself is more representative. You’re figure is unrepresentative.”
Because you basically said, “this figure is bust because you have slow and precise people mucking the number” in your first paragraph the second interpretation makes more sense.
When C.L. called you out with his masterful Simpson’s .gif (http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__...Makeup_gun.gif), you say that you were equivocating in the first place.

I didn't say it actually took me 2,76 hours to paint a 10 man squad; I said that it's takes closer to 2,76 hours for me to paint a squad, than 2,76 hours to paint a single model.
You revert to your initial point, which is that 165 minutes per Tactical Marine seems like a long time. I think that you are right. The thing is that I never said Tactical Marine or even infantry model but model. You are more narrowly defined two that I explicitly defined broadly not once, but twice. I stated this twice, both in OP and in a post directed directly at you. I also stated that the 2.76 was arrived at because I rounded up and rolled into all attendant activities. I did this because, like you, I was suspicious of the survey numbers. To address your concern, I also gave you the median number (2 hours per model) to give you a more representative figure.



Let's say it would take 2,76 hours (or 2 hours 45 min) to paint a single model; that's over 27 hours to paint a full squad. If I painted 4 hours every day it would mean it would take almost 7 days to complete the squad.
You then cite a common painting technique as the reason why your numbers are comparatively low, discounting the possibility that those surveyed use the exact same painting technique.


That seems very long in my opinion. 5-6 hours on the other hand, sounds about right: I don't paint my models one-by-one, but more akin to a assembley-line; I paint the same "area/details" on all 10 models, which means that by the time I'm done with the last one, the first one(s) has dried so I can go on to paint the next area/detail, and so forth.

TheBearminator
18-02-2014, 07:07
2,76 hours per model? Must be a very slow or very precise painter.

I'd say 2,76 hours per (10 man) unit is more close to the truth regarding myself. :P

I think 2,5-3 hours is what I invest in a model too.

Greyhound
18-02-2014, 11:45
I spent 2-3 hours per model

silentsmoke
18-02-2014, 13:32
I like to think of it in a number of years, going on the size of my Imperial Guard....

To buy me out of something which is in my blood would be priceless - and dangerous as I would buy a McLaren P1 and no doubt get myself killed!! lol

Asdrubael108
18-02-2014, 14:28
For everybody saying it takes 3 hours to paint a wraithknight: Have you ever heard of a airbrush? I finished mine in 1 and a half hour! (I won silver with it in a Golden Demon.... So no no 25 hour work on that biestie!) For the starter of the tread: You do understands, everybody paints different? One puts 10 minutes in it while the other puts 20 hours in it! (this is just my personal excperience!)

For the rest: I think this tread is a little usseles, If you 2.5 hours per modal, you need to be clear where youre talking about, a marine or riptide?

(This is not meant to insult anybody! Just my personal excperience!)
Greetings,
Asdrubael

Denny
18-02-2014, 15:02
Also, however, I'd like to make a point about human irrationality in your first post: a lot of people make the mistake of allowing their supply of labor to fall at higher labor prices for "more leisure time", but this will actually provide them with less leisure time. The problem is that people are very bad at understanding how much money they will need for how long in the future. If you work more and more at high wages now, and then you actually SAVE that money, you can begin accumulating investment capital and end up one of those people who retires at 40. We are bad at valuing our own time and options. Also, if I've ever given one piece of advice on this board to people that is actually worth anything, it's probably this: save as much money as you can. Always.

Not that this is bad advice (especially about saving, I agree 100%) but I’m not convinced that working extra hours now so you can retire early is a straightforward exchange.

I’m thinking of a friend since school who now earns more than three times what I do. The man has worked his butt off and has my total respect. If he wants he can retire way sooner than me . . . though he now looks about 15 years older than me and suffers from quite poor health. I don’t think the money has been a good trade . . .

Working extra hours are only worthwhile if you are not adversely affecting your health, marriage, family, or happiness (not saying yours does Reinholt, just making a general point)

On Topic: I like painting. So this question reads to me as ‘How much is it worth for you to spend time enjoying yourself?’

. . . Quite a bit I suppose?

Also, I don’t think the ‘time per model’ thing is particularly useful/meaningful. It took me months to assemble and paintmy wraithknight, and a long weekend to paint 40 zombies. Neither average would be a decent representation of how long painting takes (excluding drying time I think I could do 100 zombies in about 6 hours if I had too . . . and maybe 10 Dark Eldar Warriors in the same time . . .)

Minsc
18-02-2014, 20:59
Oh, and dark_Kindred:Please leeve Minsc be

Thank you...?


I have the feeling he hates painting

Yes, I do. Most of the time anyway.
Although, I've learned how to be a decent painter if I may say so myself.


and is a Powergamer!

You couldn't be more wrong. Besides, I'm not sure how hating/loving to paint in any way makes you a fluff- or a powergamer. :rolleyes:


he's right now just irritating you, me and the rest reading through this tread!

I take my 'thank you' back.

Apparently, by not adhering to the notion that it takes 2-3 hours (for me) to paint a single model, it makes me a troll.

Dark Kindred has a point, I was quite hamfisted with my first reply and didn't quite read his original topic, but I do think that 3 hours on average to paint one (infantry) model is a very long time. Put it in perspective and it would be 30 hours to paint a single 10man squad. I know afew people who spray a basecoat, then use some washes, and then just add some highlights to great effect; not counting the time it takes for the paint to dry, it doesn't take very many hours for them to make a full squad. Obviously this doesn't work on model's with alot of details on them, and is a technique that far from everyone use. Some paint slower than others and are very precise/careful when they paint (and there's nothing wrong with that), some speedpaint (and there's nothing wrong with that).

So please tell me in what way I'm irritating you and "the rest reading trough this thread".

Greyhound
18-02-2014, 21:13
Ok I'll be more precise:
I spent a month so about 20 days, with 1 hour per day on:
Taking out the grots from their sprue
Sorting them in my bit box
Assemble them (for those which were in one piece it was mostly work with the cork on the base)
Clean the minis with a file
Drill the barrels
Base coat them
Paint them
Paint the base
Add the tatoos once it's all dry
Add the snow on the base
Seal them

About 2 hours per model. A large portion of the time is spent getting the hobby table ready, then cleaning up, including the brushes.

I'm not aware of any competition to do this as fast as possible so I could probably do it a lot faster if I had to but this is time I really enjoy so I have no issue enjoying 20 hours of "great time"

Langdon
18-02-2014, 21:45
I'm not aware of any competition to do this as fast as possible

Games Day used to have speed painting comps..

some places still do.

but I get your point.. spending 2-3hours painting a model is for the painters benefit.

Greyhound
18-02-2014, 21:50
I lose when I play with my miniature but always feel a winner when I paint.

I spent 40 minutes last night trying a wash on several minis. The wash will probably be covered in other layers of paint over the next few months but I will be the one knowing where it is and loving the effect. No one else will likely ever see it. It still helped me chilled down after work and sleep like a log because I did it.

Asdrubael108
19-02-2014, 09:02
Minsc: Sorry man, This was just the feeling I got by reading your posts! It was not supposed to insult! SORRY!

Danny76
23-02-2014, 10:33
If I was given a million pound to give away all my models and never play or paint again. I'd take that.
My other hobbies, video games, books, film and board games would all take over and I'd get to pay off my mortgage and life a comfortable life too.

I would however miss this the most of any hobby. It's where I spend most hobbying time alone and with buddies. And if hate to see all my stuff go..
But a cool mill would ease that pain =P

Hendarion
23-02-2014, 10:41
2,76 hours per model? Must be a very slow or very precise painter.

I'd say 2,76 hours per (10 man) unit is more close to the truth regarding myself. :P

2,76 hours is just the time I need to prepare a squad of 10. To fully paint them it at least takes like 80 hours.

Bobske
23-02-2014, 12:33
Well let's try to reply reasonably to the fist post

What would Agent X have to pay to make me quit the hobby period?

I'd like to say nothing. Because
A) It has been my hobby of choice for over 20 years. I'm not buyable like that. Agent X cannot pay me enogh to quit. why
B) Lets say I'd let Agent X pay me enough to let me and my girlfriend live very, very comfortably for our whole lives. 5 million. I'd be uncomfortable my whole lifebecause I'd couldn't do the hobby no more. I't would be like an itch thats didn't go away for the rest of my life. I'd always be wondering..Would I have been happier if I'd chosen the hobby over money.
The old addage Money doesn't make you happy (but it can make life a lot more comfortable;)
Sure I can do other hobby's. But I don't want to. Freedom is having choices. No-one can pay me enough to take my choices away
(but hey I'm human, anybody want to offer me 5 million?:)

Having a hobby is luxury so for the next question
I have 350 tyranids models
At current prices that's EUR 2.177,- (inlcluding codex and rulebook, excluding glue, paint and brushes)
That's EUR 6,- a model
And EUR 485,- for a 1.500 point army
That would be 78 models
And 78 *2,76=215 hours of leisure work.
That would be 485/215=EUR 2,25 per hour


I work 139 hours a month for about EUR 1750,- in my bank account
That's 12,60 per hour
Of which EUR 250 to EUR 300 is left after food, rent, clothes, car, insurance etc.

So I'd have to earn about 1/7 less to be unable to continue the hobby.
But if I earned less,I'd live cheaper and still try to do the hobby


I already have two armies (both nids one full FOC and one 75% full FOC), rules, dice a table and terrain.
(and a gaming club that has all that)
So to continue the hobby gaming wise I'd need to buy a new rulebook and codex very 5? years.
About 100 eur every 5 years. So I'd have to save 100/60= EUR 1,67 a month

But miniature painting wise I'd need EUR 6,- for every 2,76 hours of hobby
Whole different ball game

Crusius
23-02-2014, 12:57
For everybody saying it takes 3 hours to paint a wraithknight: Have you ever heard of a airbrush? I finished mine in 1 and a half hour! (I won silver with it in a Golden Demon.... So no no 25 hour work on that biestie!) For the starter of the tread: You do understands, everybody paints different? One puts 10 minutes in it while the other puts 20 hours in it! (this is just my personal excperience!)


That sounds pretty awesome. It took me way over 10 hours with my Wraithknight with traditional brush painting and it's tabletop quality. Do you have a picture of the wraithknight somewhere, I'm considering buying an airbrush?

It takes me at least 4 hours per tactical marine for painting only, assembly and making and painting the base adds to that. I'm a slow painter and I usually watch TV shows or documentaries while painting so that slows me down, but makes painting feel nicer.

For the past few years the cost of the hobby hasn't been the main turndown in the hobby but the time it takes to paint stuff. I have at least 1500 points worth of Warriors of Chaos unpainted, bought an old metallic Grey Knight army last autumn (still haven't painted a thing), some marine stuff dating back to maybe 2008 still not painted, the list goes on.

So the point of my incoherent post is that my time spent in painting is way over the average 2.76 hours per average model.