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Polaria
19-02-2014, 09:37
Inspired by Harrys Lament thread (GW... Where did it go wrong?) I decided to start a slightly more positive thread with my list of three simple ways to make it better:

1) Listen to Community. Yes, the GW community is a bunch of no-good whiners and you, the GW staff, probably know better... But seriously: Would Apple be the company it is now if they did not have the community? Communities are damn important both for marketing and as the source of your actual revenue so you should listen to what they say. No, it doesn't mean you have to implement everything they say or even most of what they say (I'd prefer you didn't), but it DOES mean you should at least pretend that you really care about your customers opinions. Seriously guys. You can't force the people to buy your stuff if they hate you.

2) Make the Games Accessible. In the way 40K and WHFB aren't anymore. The rush for bigger kits and selling more has lead you into a trap. The starting cost of 40k and WHFB armies have spiraled out of hand and soon both the armies and the individual models are too big for a any normal persons house or table. In my area I've already witnessed the gaming clubs move wholesale to Warmahordes and stuff because they don't have the space for running minicalypse 40k. Even the gaming rooms run by gaming shops simply don't have the space for several 4 by 6 tables. Hell, my local GW gaming shop runs 500 points matches on 4x4 tables due to lack of space. Don't expect to sell many Titan size models in a shop which can't even offer table big enough to place 'em on. I don't care how you do it. Maybe pull 40k and WHFB basic towards more of a skirmish game by restricting normal 40K/WHFB rules to 1500 points maximum, drop all D-weapon silliness from those games. At the same time start developing the "Minicalypse 40K" (with double FOCs, Escalation, Strongpoints and so on) as a package which works for the large games for those who have the money and the space.

3) Focus on the Rules. Seriously. I know you guys are like me and just want to have laughs around the table with beer in the other hand while playing and for such games the balanced rules are not necessary. But there is a VERY vocal and sizable element of players who actually want to play competitive (god knows why, 'cause its utterly silly using your rules, but these guys actually do exist), so hiding behind "we just make miniatures" -line doesn't get you any friends or increase your sales. So why not actually try to cater to them? Make streamlined rules that are actually WELL TESTED and BALANCED. I don't care if you have to limit the "competitive rules" to around 100 to 1500 points with no Allies, no Escalation and no Fortifications allowed. Or anything like that. Just do it. Write up the competitive rules with exact limitation following which the rules actually STAY competitive and throw all the Titans and D-weapons and other silliness into "Minicalypse". I know it sounds scary at first and might be painfull, but in the end everyone profits.

So, dear readers of this thread, comment mine or throw in your own list of Three Ways to Make It Better. Lets stop whining and actually contribute to the hobby. Who knows, maybe someone in GW might listen. Or if GW crashes and burns, maybe some other company will take up the wisdom learned...

Brother Asmodeus
19-02-2014, 09:50
Maybe just get a MOD to lock this thread and post it to GW to read before the wishlisting starts ;-)

Ultimate Life Form
19-02-2014, 10:19
Point 1. Over and over again.

Prices are important as well, of course, but in my opinion, they're actually secondary. Many people voluntarily pay more for products when they feel they get their worth in return. Sadly, with GW, that's not always the case.

In my opinion, the most aggravating problem is that we have to deal with a faceless corporate juggernaut. In the truest sense. When you read the older army books, like from 5th Edition, you'll notice that there are photos and personal notes from the designers included. It gives you the impression that they care as deeply for the game as you. There is a hobby part where they explain how to glue and paint your minis, and they explain why they used the presented color scheme and what special techniques they used.

These days, the army books are completely sterile. They're just rules and miniature showcase. You don't learn why the designer designed the book the way he did, or what is the beast way to use your army. You have to figure that out on your own. I suspect that may in part be to boost White Dwarf sales, but while understandable from a business perspective, that's a devastating picture for the fans. If you want the full lowdown of your new army, you don't only buy your models and your book, but you better buy the WD as well... great.

There is absolutely zero communication with the fanbase. We learn what their next big project is the day it goes on preorder on their site. I recently paid a visit to my local GW store and inquired about the new Dwarf release. Turned out the poor guy had not the faintest idea of what's coming, either, referring me to the WD. After I asked him that very question directly in the face, the redshirt actually confirmed that the GW staff members learn about the new releases from the WD. I don't know what to say anymore. Not only don't they communicate with their fans; they don't even communicate with their own employees. That's pretty much something.

Compare that to other, upstart companies. Wyrd not only announced the second Edition of Malifaux many months in advance, explaining exactly what they were going to do about the game and why; no, they actually put the rules online and held a public beta testing for several months, tweaking the rules according to feedback to ensure that the final product is as good as possible.

What do we get from GW? Well, every few months, Moses climbs down from his mountain, a new army book or codex in his hand, and relates to us the Word of God, by which we have to live from now on, regardless if us mere mortals do understand the divine reasoning behind these commandments or not. Problem is, many fans are quite grown up already and don't enjoy being pushed around by big brother for their personal amusement.

The fans, who are also the paying customers, feel they're not being taken seriously by this company. Yeah, that's pretty much a bummer...

There is an internet these days, and they will have to learn to use it to their advantage. Just running an online shop doesn't cut it.

Keravin
19-02-2014, 10:32
A decent rules system that is balanced and does not punish the players for having bought stuff in previous editions. The one GW system I still play (Inquisitor) is not balanced, but has the GM and collaborative aspects to get that to happen. If I'm spending 80 on rules (Rulebook then codex) then I expect it to be self contained (don't make me min/max from another codex as I want to play that army) and I expect it to be properly balanced against all the other armies.

draccan
19-02-2014, 10:38
Immediately reduce prices by 25%.
Freeze price hikes for five years.
Add more sprues to the box. 30 for 10 plastic dwarfs is abysmal!!!!!!
Engage with their customers
Open a forum
Allow comments on FW blog and Youtube videos
Listen to player feedback
Do larger play tests of new rules
Balance games and stop this "we are a miniature nonsense and don't give a crap about the games we produce"
Don't charge for data slates
Change 40k to a four tier system (skirmish games, battle games, escalation games and apocalypse games)
Drop hardcover and special editions of rules that have a 3-5 year life span.
Reduce rule book / codex prices dramatically.
Get rid of general corporate greed in the organisation
RESPECT your customers and stop seeing them as money bag sheep to be slaughtered

MiyamatoMusashi
19-02-2014, 10:57
There's a microscopic line between "what are GW doing wrong" and "what could GW do better (because they're doing it wrong)".

Verm1s
19-02-2014, 12:14
Inspired by Harrys Lament thread (GW... Where did it go wrong?)

So, dear readers of this thread, comment mine or throw in your own list of Three Ways to Make It Better.

Like MM said, 'how to make it better' is very tightly knit to 'what went wrong', to the point of no difference. All the points here, good as they are (tho some of the wording could be looked at) have been mentioned and reiterated and rehashed in Harry's thread.

Then Lord Solar Plexus makes a quip and they have to be repeated all over again.


you, the GW staff, probably know better...

:p


Lets stop whining and actually contribute to the hobby.

If you mean 'The Hobbytm': what would you suggest? As mentioned, this subject's been done to death, and no-one at GW will pay attention to it anyway. You'd get better mileage out of one of those 'let's have a boycott who's with me' threads of portent/warseer yore.


Or if GW crashes and burns, maybe some other company will take up the wisdom learned...

If you mean 'the hobby', I'd contribute by pointing out some of the companies who already get that wisdom. And I already contribute to them. With money.


I know you guys are like me and just want to have laughs around the table with beer in the other hand while playing and for such games the balanced rules are not necessary.

This is going off-topic, but I never got the "we're just beernpretzeling so the rules can be crap" thing. Particularly paying GW's kind of prices, just to ass around. 100+ Snakes and Ladders. You never get the slightest glimmer of satisfaction from positioning that squad in just the right place, that one time?
Definitely not to say players should be grim and serious and thinking four steps ahead all the time. Just that I've gotten more laughs from losing with good rules, than grinding through the bad.

Abaraxas
19-02-2014, 12:35
Reintroduce metals, and the back catalogue of miniatures that they have canned- perhaps as a proper, rotating collector's range.

ObiWayneKenobi
19-02-2014, 16:12
I would honestly say:

* Provide value again. A price hike when reasonable is fine, a price hike when you just lowered your own production costs is not. A price hike when you not only lowered your cost but also cut the models in the box in half is ridiculous. Adding extra bits that people don't want in lieu of actual value and using it to justify the price increase (i.e. "We added an extra sprue of options!") is taking the ****.

* Every single army should have a REASONABLY priced "starter army" that includes the codex for free. I'm talking like a full small army (750 points for 40k, 1,000 for WHFB) for $150 or less, and has the codex. Take the profit loss on this if you have to. Also sell the small paperback rulebook from the boxed set for $25. Ideally a boxed set would have two armies chosen with a fully playable force (again, 750/1k points), and then there would be special deals for other armies in the event somebody doesn't want to play the armies in the boxed set.

* Bring back Mail Order Trolls and their deals; I remember in the old days deals like buy two, get the third half off, or buy X many figures and get one free, that kind of thing. A little goes a long way.

* Open up to the community. The old GW site had articles on terrain/army building/painting and the like and was a great resource, not just a glorified catalog. Hire an actual PR department instead of sticking your collective heads in the sand and pretending everything is fine. You don't have to listen to all the whining on the internet, but be more receptive of criticism.

* Balance the rules. More than anything else is this one. If the goal is "forging the narrative" you don't need to load up the core rules with pretty extras meant for campaign/story-driven games. There should be a solid set of core rules that are balanced and meant for tournaments and pick-up games, and then options with the disclaimer that said options are meant for narrative games.

* Make sure that all your armies are updated properly before putting out new things for existing armies. Every edition there have been multiple Space Marine codexes and miniatures while other armies haven't even gotten a codex update or new figures in a decade or more. That's ridiculous. If you want the game to be solely about Space Marines, then push HH/30k instead of 40k.

Polaria
20-02-2014, 07:32
I would honestly say:
* Every single army should have a REASONABLY priced "starter army" that includes the codex for free. I'm talking like a full small army (750 points for 40k, 1,000 for WHFB) for $150 or less, and has the codex. Take the profit loss on this if you have to. Also sell the small paperback rulebook from the boxed set for $25. Ideally a boxed set would have two armies chosen with a fully playable force (again, 750/1k points), and then there would be special deals for other armies in the event somebody doesn't want to play the armies in the boxed set.


This would honestly do wonderfull things in making the game more accessible to new players. At the moment there is nothing that would even compare with this idea. The "Battalion" and "Army" deals are more like 1/5th of a real army for 1/5th of a real armys price... Which is not good.

williamsond
20-02-2014, 09:57
bring back the the creativity by seperating the design studio from the marketing department would be a good start and try and bring some balance back to the game (I'm looking at you data slates)

AsleepByDay
20-02-2014, 11:28
Are the people asking to reintroduce metals just asking for all the discontinued sculpts back? So if they appeared in plastic at the same price you'd be happy or do you like the models being in metal?

Personally I think the best thing we can do to help gw is to buy from 3rd party stores if we buy gw (this will hopefully force them to build better relations there which is good for gw in the long run) and just to buy less stuff from gw all together (vote with your wallet) sooner or later they will have to improve to compete.

Herzlos
20-02-2014, 11:38
Ideally a boxed set would have two armies chosen with a fully playable force (again, 750/1k points), and then there would be special deals for other armies in the event somebody doesn't want to play the armies in the boxed set.

It would be better if any starter pack was detached from army choices, so either a dice/template/rule bundle on it's own, or in a deal that includes 1 or 2 faction starters of your choice (just like almost everyone else does). Then you can get started with whatever army you want, and don't need to buy the surplus stuff to get the mini rule book.

WokeUpDead
20-02-2014, 13:15
what I'd like GW to do:
please continue your current policies. I'm really beyond the point of wanting them doing good, and beyond the point where I hope things will get better, given time.
GW should really wither away ASAP and make room for other companies.
look, other people still make money of our hobbies, but their customers don't actually hate them - one wonders why. GW won't ever see why (not even trying to).

there are so many reasons -not- to play warhamster and warhamster40k, and so few to actually do. I've been in the hobby since '95(?) and I don't really see why I should even bother anymore;
I still like their fluff and most of their minis. especially in 40k there is few competition (IMO) designwise. but..

why should -anyone- buy some overpriced minis he actually likes, paint them up in weeks/months full of work, put them on the table and gets the reaction: "why do you bother? that unit just sucks" .. and the GW rules say that guy is right most of the time.
you do that often enough, your lovingly painted but "sucky" unit punishes you every time in one way or another. and every two years, there's yet another new edition and/or your armybook that basically says "now these units shine, but others really suck. throw them away, buy other stuff".

there are many more points others have made already, and certainly more eloquently than me. so I won't repeat them.


instead, I'd like people to look over the fence: the gras is really greener on the other side. fed up with GW like others and me? give somebody else a chance to enrich your hobby-time.
-play XWING. the minis ain't cheap either (just the plain price per mini, mind), but: every.single.mini is useful in the game. I can -blindly- buy whatever I want, put it on the table and have actual and competative fun.
-or get into deadzone, for example. wonderful ruleset IMO (though the book explains it rather chaoticly, sadly), really nice minis that -can- be compared to the 40k standard, scenery and nice battlemat all inclusive, for a not so big amount of money.
backed by a company (see? company like in GW, but..) that actually listens to it's customer, backed up by a rules-dev who does the same.

I've tested both and they are wonderful games. that, and fun, good value, and the fuzzy feeling their devs actually care for the game and improve upon it, instead of .. doing, what GW does.
just two examples, there are many more.


so: why should I try to help the struggling juggernaut that is GW who actually spits in my face and bites my hand? instead I'll turn to a more caring, more friendly environment.
best to put old yeller to rest and let somebody else pick up their IP. invest in a friendlier puppy ;-)

The Decayed
20-02-2014, 13:47
I could quote the whole of WokeUpDead's post, but it's right above this one, anyway +1 from me.
Exactly my feelings.

MarcoSkoll
20-02-2014, 13:49
Are the people asking to reintroduce metals just asking for all the discontinued sculpts back? So if they appeared in plastic at the same price you'd be happy or do you like the models being in metal?
That's not a possibility - the discontinued sculpts all have undercuts that make them unsuitable for injection moulding. Basically, the choice for those models is "metal or Finecast" - and a lot of people don't like Finecast.

The Decayed
20-02-2014, 14:10
It could surely be possible.
You just need to 3d-scan them, and break them up into multi-part stuff on a sprue.
That way, lots of those undercuts could even be improved.

MarcoSkoll
20-02-2014, 14:24
That's a fairly a time consuming and expensive process to go through and doesn't actually produce equivalent results. As an easy example, the old metal Space Marine scouts had textured hair, but that had to be compromised on the plastics (which is why they all look like Wayne Rooney).

In theory, one could break a model into about bazillion different pieces and genuinely not lose a single undercut, but it would make for something truly frustrating to assemble.

Herzlos
20-02-2014, 14:24
That's not a possibility - the discontinued sculpts all have undercuts that make them unsuitable for injection moulding. Basically, the choice for those models is "metal or Finecast" - and a lot of people don't like Finecast.

No I think he's talking about metal kits that were replaced by plastic kits. I.e. If you had the choice of metal or plastic at the same price, would anyone want the metals?


I think they could easily outsource the discontinued stuff to someone else (a guy in shed operation) and still make money, but it's potentially not worth doing the stuff duplicated in other materials.

The Decayed
20-02-2014, 14:53
I think the scout's hair problem isn't due to them being plastics.
Lots of the older Space Wolf heads had detailed hair on the plastic sprue.
The whole plastic scout sprue is just very undetailed and bland if you look at it, not just their hair.
I think that problem is just due to making them as cheap as possible, and GW being lazy on the sculpting side of things.
Weren't they one of the first digital sculpts? That could go a long way of explaining (not to be mistaken for excusing) their too smooth undetailed surfaces...

Litcheur
20-02-2014, 15:17
with my list of three simple ways to make it better:
1) Listen to Community.
[...]
2) Make the Games Accessible.
[...]
3) Focus on the Rules.
[...]
So, dear readers of this thread, comment mine or throw in your own list of Three Ways to Make It Better. Lets stop whining and actually contribute to the hobby. Who knows, maybe someone in GW might listen. Or if GW crashes and burns, maybe some other company will take up the wisdom learned...
1) Just care.
2) Just CARE.
3) JUST CARE. :D

GW doesn't seem to care at all about the products they're selling, about their value, about the consummers... about anything but the shareholders.

ashc
20-02-2014, 15:33
Stop treating your customers like they are dog mess on the sole of a shoe.

Sent from my GT-I8190N using Tapatalk

ObiWayneKenobi
20-02-2014, 15:35
RE: Metal vs. Plastic the one thing I miss is being able to buy a unit piecemeal via blister packs. Don't have the $30 (from back in the day...) it cost for a full squad? Buy two packs now, and the rest later. You can't budget anymore, and the prices keep going higher and higher. You would never be able to do something like the original Tale of Four Gamers, where most of what they would buy each month would be blisters to build up a future unit versus an entire unit in one go.

lowlylowlycook
22-02-2014, 20:34
Here's the thing. I'm kind of willing to give GW a bit of the benefit of the doubt. After all, they have stuck around for a long time when many big gaming companies have gone bust. There is a benefit to running a company as a company rather than by the "Rule of Cool".

But I have to say that GW hasn't really reacted well to two developments.

First, let's consider the move to plastic. As long as they were dealing with the high production costs of metal, their strategy of being a premium brand had a lot of merit. Now that they are making the best plastic miniatures out there, they should realize that they are in a position to exploit their dominant position with a bit of predatory pricing. Basically, given their volume of sales, no other company could afford to sell as cheaply as GW could. Imagine trying to sell your friends on some new miniature based game if GW's games were simultaneously the most popular and easy to find opponents for and also cheaper to get into. It wouldn't be an easy sell.

Of course the new lower prices would also facilitate, bringing in new, young, players which would help ensure that GW stayed the dominant force in minis.

Well, they could afford to sell for cheap, if they didn't have the high costs of B&M stores, that is. Which brings us to the internet. Basically having GW branded stores isn't necessary when your fans can find each other on the internet. And they certainly don't need stores to actually sell product given that internet retail is so perfect for selling niche products.

Nixing the stores and building their website around a kind of Warhammer centric meetup system would be something to explore. Certainly better than the idea of a weekly print magazine.

In short, GW should be more greedy and more evil.

Andy089
22-02-2014, 21:27
The problem I have with the "we are a miniature company and don't care about the rules" attitude is: Then why charge for them?

If they would have a forum and listen to feedback they wouldn't even really have to come up with stuff - they could just pick what sounds good from the forum!

MusingWarboss
22-02-2014, 21:39
RE: Metal vs. Plastic the one thing I miss is being able to buy a unit piecemeal via blister packs. Don't have the $30 (from back in the day...) it cost for a full squad? Buy two packs now, and the rest later. You can't budget anymore, and the prices keep going higher and higher. You would never be able to do something like the original Tale of Four Gamers, where most of what they would buy each month would be blisters to build up a future unit versus an entire unit in one go.

We're slowly getting back to that, the levels of models keeps going down. I brought 5 metal Howling Banshees in a blister pack in 1993. That's a box set of finecast models now. Price is vastly higher though.


Here's the thing. I'm kind of willing to give GW a bit of the benefit of the doubt. After all, they have stuck around for a long time when many big gaming companies have gone bust. There is a benefit to running a company as a company rather than by the "Rule of Cool".

But I have to say that GW hasn't really reacted well to two developments.

First, let's consider the move to plastic. As long as they were dealing with the high production costs of metal, their strategy of being a premium brand had a lot of merit. Now that they are making the best plastic miniatures out there, they should realize that they are in a position to exploit their dominant position with a bit of predatory pricing. Basically, given their volume of sales, no other company could afford to sell as cheaply as GW could. Imagine trying to sell your friends on some new miniature based game if GW's games were simultaneously the most popular and easy to find opponents for and also cheaper to get into. It wouldn't be an easy sell.

Of course the new lower prices would also facilitate, bringing in new, young, players which would help ensure that GW stayed the dominant force in minis.

Well, they could afford to sell for cheap, if they didn't have the high costs of B&M stores, that is. Which brings us to the internet. Basically having GW branded stores isn't necessary when your fans can find each other on the internet. And they certainly don't need stores to actually sell product given that internet retail is so perfect for selling niche products.

Nixing the stores and building their website around a kind of Warhammer centric meetup system would be something to explore. Certainly better than the idea of a weekly print magazine.

In short, GW should be more greedy and more evil.

Their policy is bizarrely pre-Internet. They think the stores are A-Good-Thing. They're not. Not now. Twenty years ago maybe but these days you just don't need to go there, they carry increasingly less stock and often try to get you to order on the store computer stuff to be shipped to the store. They don't like it when you point out that I can do that at home and have it shipped there, saving me a long drive, parking and petrol.

Without having read either of these two posts I've addressed both topics in a new thread. It's just crazy. GW are still using a pre-Internet, pre-plastic, B&M store pricing and army construction system, despite the fact that its outdated in the modern world and in their current games.

Absolutely GW could and should price lower than the competition and give better value plastic boxes that suit the mass troop games they sell. But they don't. They still work as if this was 1985/7 and we're all buying blister packs of metal miniatures for their mini-skirmish war games. :rolleyes:

ObiWayneKenobi
22-02-2014, 21:48
The stores are an interesting thing. Since they've cut most of them down to one man shops (I think I recall reading somewhere that 50% of their stores worldwide were 1-man operations now?) they might as well make amends with independent retailers (if that's even possible now) and close their own shops and then work with the independents. Didn't WotC do that back in the day? But GW seems to still think that the world revolves around the GW store, ignore the internet completely and not actually try to promote their own games. I've said it before but it bears repeating:

Imagine if GW embraced the independents and the game like WotC did with Magic? Weekly leagues/tournaments (e.g. "Thursday Night Warhammer"), promotions with new releases, guaranteed games via a network of independent retailers and online interactions and communities.

Instead we have a GW that pretends the internet doesn't exist, ignores any communication, alienated independent retailers and does everything it can to shill its own products almost brazenly; if it wasn't real it would be a caricature.

MusingWarboss
22-02-2014, 21:57
Instead we have a GW that pretends the internet doesn't exist, ignores any communication, alienated independent retailers and does everything it can to shill its own products almost brazenly; if it wasn't real it would be a caricature.

Have you ever seen their headquarters? A great big bronze Space Marine statue outside, big square dark grey buildings with a massive black Imperial Eagles on the sides and a tank visible on the entrance to the car park. In fact their logo is harder to spot than the eagles are. The place couldn't look any more like the HQ of a Fascist organisation! Talk about a caricature!

tezdal
23-02-2014, 00:04
The stores are an interesting thing. Since they've cut most of them down to one man shops (I think I recall reading somewhere that 50% of their stores worldwide were 1-man operations now?) they might as well make amends with independent retailers (if that's even possible now) and close their own shops and then work with the independents. Didn't WotC do that back in the day? But GW seems to still think that the world revolves around the GW store, ignore the internet completely and not actually try to promote their own games. I've said it before but it bears repeating:

Imagine if GW embraced the independents and the game like WotC did with Magic? Weekly leagues/tournaments (e.g. "Thursday Night Warhammer"), promotions with new releases, guaranteed games via a network of independent retailers and online interactions and communities.

Instead we have a GW that pretends the internet doesn't exist, ignores any communication, alienated independent retailers and does everything it can to shill its own products almost brazenly; if it wasn't real it would be a caricature.

Personally I would be fine if they closed all GW stores and slashed prices.. those places always to tend to be creepy to go into, obnoxious to shop at, and frankly have nothing that I cant get at my FLGS.

ObiWayneKenobi
23-02-2014, 00:08
Have you ever seen their headquarters? A great big bronze Space Marine statue outside, big square dark grey buildings with a massive black Imperial Eagles on the sides and a tank visible on the entrance to the car park. In fact their logo is harder to spot than the eagles are. The place couldn't look any more like the HQ of a Fascist organisation! Talk about a caricature!

Oh wow... I just looked up a picture of their HQ. Jesus Christ...

I think they took the whole Imperium thing a bit too far.

Abaraxas
23-02-2014, 01:46
Are the people asking to reintroduce metals just asking for all the discontinued sculpts back? So if they appeared in plastic at the same price you'd be happy or do you like the models being in metal?


I honestly prefer metal miniatures...tin soldiers.

Grimtuff
23-02-2014, 18:57
Have you ever seen their headquarters? A great big bronze Space Marine statue outside, big square dark grey buildings with a massive black Imperial Eagles on the sides and a tank visible on the entrance to the car park. In fact their logo is harder to spot than the eagles are. The place couldn't look any more like the HQ of a Fascist organisation! Talk about a caricature!

In fact, it is actually referred to a "the Reichstag" or "the Nazi building" by local taxi drivers. So, yeah... :p

BigbyWolf
23-02-2014, 19:17
Release Squats. All problems are solved.:yes:

canberraguy
23-02-2014, 20:43
A few little easy things come to mind. Getting some personality in the books is a positive thing.

Designer notes in White Dwarf generates enthusiasm and discussion.

Personality for minature designers. All figured should say who sculpted them even if many kits are done by more than one person.

GW are a pretty faceless lot these days, and that hardly helps generate affection or loyalty.

Also

Pricing. I think the Dwarf pricing was a positive step in the right direction, but I think they need to keep looking at pricing. A new army book is A$83. Put that in your currency exchange software to see how much that is where you live.

A lot if the gear is a little too dear for what is a discretionary hobby, particularly when you compare with
other companies

canberraguy
23-02-2014, 20:45
Oh, and entry games ( eg Necro, Blood bowl, Mordheim), for the love of Nurgle entry games!!

Vets like them as a bit of variety and it gets newbies into the hobby!!

The_Real_Chris
24-02-2014, 01:06
Well, any kind of entry priced product... And some sort of viable 4-5 pocket money option, even if it is only space marines. Something to replace the old pocket money blister pack option for frequent store visitors.

shelfunit.
24-02-2014, 07:09
Pricing. I think the Dwarf pricing was a positive step in the right direction, but I think they need to keep looking at pricing.

In what way :confused:

pinegulf
24-02-2014, 08:32
Release the rules under open source license. (See Linux license for further info.)

canberraguy
24-02-2014, 08:36
In what way :confused:

The boxed troops were not "totally" monstrously priced

lanrak
24-02-2014, 09:07
Hi all.
I totally agree with the points the OP posted!

Here are the soluitions.
Hire a marketing department !

A proper marketing department does proper market research and marketing !
They find out who is interested in your product, why they are or are not buying it!

You can have an awesome product but if you fail to market it properly, you fail !

In GW plc history the biggest period of growth was when GW plc worked with MB games.(Who did huge amount of marketing for Hero Quest and Space crusade.)
And when they worked with New Line Cinema and Diagnosti .The success was so huge, GW plc C.E.O made a point of how he skillfully managed to stop the most sucessfull Diagnosti magazine (LoTR BGiME) after one run.:eek:


The core problem is GW plc do not know who their customer are, or what they want.
And T.Kirby does not want to know! Otherwise he can be proved to be completely wrong!
If GW core demographic is not '..vunerable..' '..children...' '..goobering over the latest releases..' :rolleyes:

While nobody actually knows what GW customer base could be and should be , the C.E.O can act like he is the only one who can make good decisions.(That make him rich while doing nothing much , BTW.)

Proper market research could reveal most of GWs potential customers want well defined intuitive rules , and are over the age of 11.
And then maybe GW plc might actually engage with them in a more appropriate way.

shelfunit.
24-02-2014, 09:47
The boxed troops were not "totally" monstrously priced

Hardly a step in the right direction though, and the gyro was horribly priced.

Herzlos
24-02-2014, 12:31
The boxed troops were not "totally" monstrously priced

He's from NSW, and they aren't being as badly gouged as before, so it looks like they've got a better deal when in reality everyone else got a worse deal that didn't effect them.

For me; 3 each for a block of plastic rank and file is pushing it a bit, when I can get an equivalent for nearer 1/3rd of that elsewhere.

MusingWarboss
24-02-2014, 12:56
Hi all.
I totally agree with the points the OP posted!

Here are the soluitions.
Hire a marketing department !

A proper marketing department does proper market research and marketing !
They find out who is interested in your product, why they are or are not buying it!

You can have an awesome product but if you fail to market it properly, you fail !

In GW plc history the biggest period of growth was when GW plc worked with MB games.(Who did huge amount of marketing for Hero Quest and Space crusade.)
And when they worked with New Line Cinema and Diagnosti .The success was so huge, GW plc C.E.O made a point of how he skillfully managed to stop the most sucessfull Diagnosti magazine (LoTR BGiME) after one run.:eek:


The core problem is GW plc do not know who their customer are, or what they want.
And T.Kirby does not want to know! Otherwise he can be proved to be completely wrong!
If GW core demographic is not '..vunerable..' '..children...' '..goobering over the latest releases..' :rolleyes:

While nobody actually knows what GW customer base could be and should be , the C.E.O can act like he is the only one who can make good decisions.(That make him rich while doing nothing much , BTW.)

Proper market research could reveal most of GWs potential customers want well defined intuitive rules , and are over the age of 11.
And then maybe GW plc might actually engage with them in a more appropriate way.

Whilst most of us probably got into it whilst in the bracket that could be labelled 'kids' the reasoning GW use is actually somewhat inaccurate. MB Games made it seem acceptable in the home, rather than the odd-cult like image parents had of role playing games in the 70s and 80s. As if they were somehow a bit evil. MB helped to convince people that actually miniatures games and fantasy and sci-fi games were no worse than Monopoly or Scrabble.

There is a line of thought that MB helped normalise a hobby which was once quite an alternative scene (bikers and metalheads) and by doing so made GW realise that Kids could be a target market. By 1993 they had made the full flung effort to fully market to kids which directly leads to the situation we have now.

The reason I imagine most of us got into it was because the models and background and culture seemed "cool". Subjective I know. The reason many people give for disliking GW stores here in the UK is precisely because they are now full of kids, which when you're in your teens upwards, isn't "cool". Look at the often used description of some gamers - 'man children'. Oh dear. Hardly makes it an aspirational sounding hobby.

Making your stuff attractive to kids is precisely what makes it uncool. It was cool when it was an adult hobby that kids wanted to aspire to playing and doing.

This probably makes no sense but then "cool" rarely does. Essentially, most "cool" is away from the mainstream, its alternative or exclusive or aspirational as a lifestyle. GW for the last decade has been none of this. For most of its existence up til the LotR bubble burst it kinda was, though it got gradually worse with the increasing high street store presence and kiddification of its brands.

Just a thought.

MusingWarboss
24-02-2014, 14:40
Just a comparison:

GW have taken what was once an adult (14+ remember) product and has turned it into a children's toy range. A premium toy range at that.

LEGO have taken what was once a children's toy and have fostered its cult status to appeal to children on their basic kits and adults in their licensed properties. They know an adult wouldn't buy a fire engine for themselves but they would a huge TIE fighter! The kids are happy to play with both.

LEGO has just released a multimillion dollar film into the cinemas with tie-in deals with large chains like McDonalds. GW had the Ultramarines film which looked like it was rendered on a broken PS2 one Sunday afternoon.

GW is fiercely protective of its IP, LEGO had its Copyright on its block design opened up and still trounces the competition.

One has a brand that actively promotes ditching its customers after one large purchase, the other basks in the warm glow of nostalgia and uses it to its advantage to sell ever more kits knowing that happy children can become happy parents.

One has a pub and a few gaming tables in Nottingham, the other has several large theme parks dedicated to it.

If GW want to compete in the toy market, they're going to have to do a lot lot better than they are now. In fact, they were doing better at it in 1991!!

ashc
24-02-2014, 17:57
One is making Ghostbusters lego. Ohhhh yeahhhh

Sent from my GT-I8190N using Tapatalk

Autumn Leaves
24-02-2014, 18:11
Just a comparison:

GW have taken what was once an adult (14+ remember) product and has turned it into a children's toy range. A premium toy range at that.

LEGO have taken what was once a children's toy and have fostered its cult status to appeal to children on their basic kits and adults in their licensed properties. They know an adult wouldn't buy a fire engine for themselves but they would a huge TIE fighter! The kids are happy to play with both.

LEGO has just released a multimillion dollar film into the cinemas with tie-in deals with large chains like McDonalds. GW had the Ultramarines film which looked like it was rendered on a broken PS2 one Sunday afternoon.

GW is fiercely protective of its IP, LEGO had its Copyright on its block design opened up and still trounces the competition.

One has a brand that actively promotes ditching its customers after one large purchase, the other basks in the warm glow of nostalgia and uses it to its advantage to sell ever more kits knowing that happy children can become happy parents.

One has a pub and a few gaming tables in Nottingham, the other has several large theme parks dedicated to it.

If GW want to compete in the toy market, they're going to have to do a lot lot better than they are now. In fact, they were doing better at it in 1991!!

This is a very good post.
GW were functioning better as a private enterprise in 1991, than as a PLC in 2014, however there were some extraordinarily successful cash gathering years in the early noughties thanks to the LotR phenomenon.

Wayshuba
24-02-2014, 20:06
This is a very good post.
GW were functioning better as a private enterprise in 1991, than as a PLC in 2014, however there were some extraordinarily successful cash gathering years in the early noughties thanks to the LotR phenomenon.

In the early nineties they were still a game company instead of a glorified plastic action figure company (in senior managements eyes) and actually had more than three games at that time. Personally, I was playing a lot of Space Hulk in 1990-1991 (and consequently this is what got me into Warhammer 40k Second Edition) along with Talisman (which also got me into Warhammer). They also had, in 1990-91: Space Marine (Epic 40k), Advanced Space Crusade, Advanced Heroquest, DungeonQuest, Bloodbowl, Mighty Empires, and a few others.

Funny thing is, the above example of myself is EXACTLY why GW is appearing so clueless. Even in 1990-91, many people I know that got into 40k or WFB did so because of these bridge games. GW has completely forgotten that these are the entry ramps into their main games. Unless they figure that out again, and quickly, we are going to enjoy a company with an ever dwindling customer base that will eventually become a complete mass exodus (ala TSRs last days).

To the OPs question - the first thing GW needs is a "Steve Jobs" type running the company. One who actually knows business AND cares about and plays wargames. Otherwise, this is going to end up going the same course as TSR did under Lorraine Williams.

MarcoSkoll
24-02-2014, 20:12
Actually, GW didn't have LOTR in the early nineties.
He said "Noughties" though, not "Nineties".

Abaraxas
24-02-2014, 20:15
Whilst most of us probably got into it whilst in the bracket that could be labelled 'kids' the reasoning GW use is actually somewhat inaccurate. MB Games made it seem acceptable in the home, rather than the odd-cult like image parents had of role playing games in the 70s and 80s. As if they were somehow a bit evil. MB helped to convince people that actually miniatures games and fantasy and sci-fi games were no worse than Monopoly or Scrabble.

There is a line of thought that MB helped normalise a hobby which was once quite an alternative scene (bikers and metalheads) and by doing so made GW realise that Kids could be a target market. By 1993 they had made the full flung effort to fully market to kids which directly leads to the situation we have now.

The reason I imagine most of us got into it was because the models and background and culture seemed "cool". Subjective I know. The reason many people give for disliking GW stores here in the UK is precisely because they are now full of kids, which when you're in your teens upwards, isn't "cool". Look at the often used description of some gamers - 'man children'. Oh dear. Hardly makes it an aspirational sounding hobby.

Making your stuff attractive to kids is precisely what makes it uncool. It was cool when it was an adult hobby that kids wanted to aspire to playing and doing.

This probably makes no sense but then "cool" rarely does. Essentially, most "cool" is away from the mainstream, its alternative or exclusive or aspirational as a lifestyle. GW for the last decade has been none of this. For most of its existence up til the LotR bubble burst it kinda was, though it got gradually worse with the increasing high street store presence and kiddification of its brands.

Just a thought.

Times like these this place needs a "like" button :chrome:

Verm1s
24-02-2014, 20:59
the first thing GW needs is a "Steve Jobs" type running the company.

Well, they nicked most of their ideas and fostered a cultlike following already. It's been done. :angel:

Ebon
09-03-2014, 17:31
You would never be able to do something like the original Tale of Four Gamers, where most of what they would buy each month would be blisters to build up a future unit versus an entire unit in one go.

Yeah but they cheated anyway. They were supposed to only have 50 a month but cheated by going to every grand opening in Christendom without counting the train/petrol costs. The only way a regular reader would have been able to duplicate their armies for the same price was to discover teleportation.

TheFang
09-03-2014, 18:32
Yeah but they cheated anyway. They were supposed to only have 50 a month but cheated by going to every grand opening in Christendom without counting the train/petrol costs. The only way a regular reader would have been able to duplicate their armies for the same price was to discover teleportation.
To be honest, I used to wait until a nearby store had a grand opening and then pile in. A bit of planning and saving in the run up and even after paying a fiver or tenner in petrol or train fares it was well worth the effort. If there were bargain blisters or discontinued boxes then it was even better.

Ebon
09-03-2014, 19:24
In no particular order:
- Instant price freeze for at least the next five years. A reduction would be even better.
- Publish a letter in WD outright apologising to gamers for the Finecrap fiasco.
- Bring back occasional sales.
- Bring back the Skullz promotion or some similar loyalty reward.
- Communicate with your fans about what's upcoming.
- Open a forum. And DON'T police it to remove any negative comments.
- Related to the above: Engage with and listen to your fans. That doesn't mean letting them run the company but not treating them like lepers who should feel blessed to be allowed to give you cash would be a start.
- Balance the rules. This means not having Baneblades and Knights in normal 40k games.
- Stop trying to shoehorn massive centrepiece models into every army.
- Stop the blatant nerfing of old faithfuls to sell the latest addition.
- Less bloody Marines!
- Less supplemental codices. Let's nip this in the bud before an IG army requires five codices to play.
- Free dataslates.
- Ebooks should be substantially cheaper than hardbacks. That's just naked greed.
- Bring back actual content on the website. It used to have tacticas, painting guides, fluff pieces, all sorts. Now it's just a pretty webstore.
- Bring back Specialist games. At least the more popular ones.
- Bring back the Bitz service. If you have to do it in resin to make it cost effective, that's fine.
- Fire Matt Ward.
- Pension off Jervis while you're at it. I appreciate he has sentimental value but his endless "isn't everything wonderful?" shilling is tiresome.
- Leverage your IP more effectively. Dawn of War was brilliant, I still play it all the time but it's now ten years old. Mark of Chaos was eight years ago. Warhammer Online was six years ago and crap. You should have an MMO for both fantasy and 40k out right now and a game or expansion hitting the shelves roughly every eighteen months.

Idle Scholar
10-03-2014, 03:02
I'd release a 9th edition of WH where you only need 1/3 of the models for a 2000pt game.

ObiWayneKenobi
10-03-2014, 14:24
GW doesn't even really market to kids with the price and assembly. What 12 year old is going to have money to drop on that stuff? What 10 year old is going to use a knife and the like to assemble and then paint these things? If they really wanted to appeal to kids they should just make everything snap-fit and make the options restricted so there's no leeway or conversions e.g. a Space Marine squad gets a plasma gun and a lascannon, that's it.

They don't really sell to kids, they just think they do and use that to justify a broader market while snubbing veterans.

ashc
10-03-2014, 19:15
Yeah I used to get the idea that they were wanting to sell to that young teen bracket, but now I'm not convinced. So many of the releases recently have been geared towards changing or adding to the core game significantly, and many new units are being added all the time. To me, that says they are producing stuff for long-term players and to try and keep things new and fresh for them? The size/cost of some of this stuff is aspirational or pipe dreams stuff for young teens (especially at GW prices, it isn't pocket money any more).

murgel2006
10-03-2014, 20:51
GW doesn't even really market to kids with the price and assembly. What 12 year old is going to have money to drop on that stuff? What 10 year old is going to use a knife and the like to assemble and then paint these things? If they really wanted to appeal to kids they should just make everything snap-fit and make the options restricted so there's no leeway or conversions e.g. a Space Marine squad gets a plasma gun and a lascannon, that's it.

They don't really sell to kids, they just think they do and use that to justify a broader market while snubbing veterans.

Here in Germany, back in the 90s there was Starquest (space crusade for all the others) which had a childapropriate fluff and rules. No one died, just frozen in time, a fantastic daydream etc.
I agree GW markets to Kids and sells to their parts or the grown up hobbyist.
What could they do better?

- Plastic or metal minis are great. Finecast is not.
- A regular codex/rulebook is not a collectors item, it stays around for a few years and then you need a new one. So price it fairly, because a fair price increases sales. Forgo hard-cover and FAQ regularly. Charge for collectors edition as much as you want.
- Always remember, acquiring a new customer takes 5 times the money than keeping an old one.
-Offer contracts to third party mini suppliers. An army with just one GW model in it is still a sold rules book, codex and at least one mini... More turnover generated by this one than of a player who stays with infinity, Battletech, Monopoly etc.
- Provide stuff which is easy to produce, like scenario books. This stuff has nice direct turnover and many potential sales in minis. Yes, I know FW is all you and you are very successful with the Heresy stuff. Which is exactly what I am talking about. There are many more such times, topics etc. in your 40k world.
- Try to have your business people think in longer terms than just the next quarter. You want to live in 5 years still, think, design and plan for that time and beyond.

leopard
11-03-2014, 21:06
Forget pricing, its not the issue it first seems to be, it could be managed but its been discussed to death elsewhere.

#1 Bring back the humour, Take what the spoof GW Fulchester thing is about, and do it better, have a few more in jokes, have more of the over the top grimdark stuff in 40k - and have it mocked in the game. Make the game something thats hard to take too seriously and be a company that in appearance doesn't take itself too seriously.

Keep the secrecy in general, but tied in with the above have a 'secret agent' who leaks stuff, and is mentioned with 'wanted' posters in WD as a result - use this to build some interest in whats coming up in a controlled way while still keeping many surprise releases.

Use the background IPR more, look at the way LotR was done, scenario books around the films, do something similar around some of the books for 40k and fantasy, campaign packs with linked scenarios, "historical forces", some of the game history, a challenge for the players to try and do better - a gentle push to have the specific forces to play that scenario as well as a more generic points value version that has a few special requirements added.

Add in some side games, as perhaps limited releases that tie in - Space Hulk is a very good example of this, and at the same time have something to use the boards in the main game - once the main game is sold out the tie in lives on as an ebook - if the tie in shifts well perhaps bring it back as a limited special or something.

Make the models a lot more than just plastic, tell the story behind them, both in game and in real life - who had the idea, what were they thinking, and tying in with the humour, what were they smoking? what was the reaction? how did it get the green light? in the game where did it come from? the works.

The thing is they can keep being the cash focussed business that a business needs to be, but put a credible mask over it and manage the image a lot better.

They obviously do listen to some of whats on the interwebz, perhaps formalise that process slightly, not with the actual designers, but have a few avatar type characters, in game characters who could on occasion work on forums (with the forum owners aware of who they are) not so much responding to critisim threads but starting threads to promote ideas, concepts, thoughts (both real ideas and off the wall ideas to throw the enemy off)

Lord Solar Plexus
12-03-2014, 18:08
It's not obvious in the least that they monitor customer behaviour or expectations online anywhere. In fact, I would be hugely surprised to find out that they do that. From what we can see on the net, they have not heard about basic marketing or CRM principles. They do not actively listen (such as on social media), they do not respond, energize, support or embrace. They have no presence beyond a convoluted website that resembles narrow aisles in a convoluted rl shop, with a gatekeeper landing page (seriously, who else has that country selection thing?). There just seems to be no strategy or idea or focus for / on social media or at least web interaction apart from the shop.

ObiWayneKenobi
12-03-2014, 18:42
It's not obvious in the least that they monitor customer behaviour or expectations online anywhere. In fact, I would be hugely surprised to find out that they do that. From what we can see on the net, they have not heard about basic marketing or CRM principles. They do not actively listen (such as on social media), they do not respond, energize, support or embrace. They have no presence beyond a convoluted website that resembles narrow aisles in a convoluted rl shop, with a gatekeeper landing page (seriously, who else has that country selection thing?). There just seems to be no strategy or idea or focus for / on social media or at least web interaction apart from the shop.

Because all of those things led to criticism and not just "rah rah GW is the best what else can you sell me" kinda stuff. Keep in mind they HAD forums; they closed them due to people complaining (and while you always had the occasional troll, most of the complaints that I recall from the forums, granted this was long ago, were legitimate and there was a lot of good information to get as well). They removed all of their hobby articles from the website for unknown reasons, but conveniently have their digital only "How to Paint X" ebooks instead. They shut down their Facebook page after the Spots the Space Marine incident when they had people criticizing them. They've all but stated they have no PR department. They don't want to engage in marketing because marketing might reveal that they're doing something wrong, and they don't want to hear that - they want to hear everything is perfect, GW has no competition at all, everyone is happily playing 40k and Fantasy and subscribed to Warhammer Visions, eagerly awaiting the next White Dwarf Weekly to see what new things they're going to pre-order.

GW is basically a textbook example of how NOT to run a successful company, and how to poorly apply the "Cult of Apple" effect.

mrtn
13-03-2014, 01:13
They removed all of their hobby articles from the website for unknown reasons, but conveniently have their digital only "How to Paint X" ebooks instead.

I've no proof but I'd guess it went when they redesigned their paint range (again). "But this article mentions Skull White!" "It does? Purge the whole website with fire!"
BTW that paint range redesign made me design to seek out other paint ranges even more actively, why base a paint scheme on a paint when there's a good precedence it will be discontinued within just a couple of years? I guess a lot of users of Devlan Mud did the same.

MusingWarboss
13-03-2014, 01:21
I've no proof but I'd guess it went when they redesigned their paint range (again). "But this article mentions Skull White!" "It does? Purge the whole website with fire!"
BTW that paint range redesign made me design to seek out other paint ranges even more actively, why base a paint scheme on a paint when there's a good precedence it will be discontinued within just a couple of years? I guess a lot of users of Devlan Mud did the same.

Welcome to the world of ... Other paint manufacturers!!!!!

Yeah, you'll find more consistency with others usually those that maintain a historical range too. :)

I recommend Vallejo and well, any of their ranges but Game Color is supposed to be formulated for wargames and has a similar match to one of GWs various lines.

Coat D'Arms has a range which pretty much the same as the 80s/90a era GW ones (as they made them for GW).

Plus there's Reaper, P3, Foundry etc. there's loads. Why restrict yourself to one manufacturer??

Importman
13-03-2014, 07:01
Welcome to the world of ... Other paint manufacturers!!!!!

Yeah, you'll find more consistency with others usually those that maintain a historical range too. :)

I recommend Vallejo and well, any of their ranges but Game Color is supposed to be formulated for wargames and has a similar match to one of GWs various lines.

Coat D'Arms has a range which pretty much the same as the 80s/90a era GW ones (as they made them for GW).

Plus there's Reaper, P3, Foundry etc. there's loads. Why restrict yourself to one manufacturer??

I am actually glad GW did what they did with discontinuing paint ranges every few years. That enabled (more like forced) me to seek other ranges for better color consistency as well as sometimes better quality. Now I have all sorts of paints but mostly Vallejo, P3, and GW (last range).

Back on topic I think GW need to have a major overhaul in order to get us old gamers back onto the GW regular buying bandwagon. They can start by getting rid of finecast and finally accept what a crappy product that it is. Also start treating their customer base as they did years ago and not just as cash units.

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk 2

shelfunit.
13-03-2014, 08:03
Coat D'Arms has a range which pretty much the same as the 80s/90a era GW ones (as they made them for GW).

Wintermute will be along in a minute if he isn't rocking backwards and forwards in a corner somewhere sobbing :D

StygianBeach
13-03-2014, 08:28
Back on topic I think GW need to have a major overhaul in order to get us old gamers back onto the GW regular buying bandwagon. They can start by getting rid of finecast and finally accept what a crappy product that it is. Also start treating their customer base as they did years ago and not just as cash units.


Fincast is good for Banners though, horrible for Banner poles however. I think Finecast is fine for short run stuff, or things like specialist banners (like the Van Carstein upgrade pack).

I agree with the OP. I would like to see more hobby put back into GW. Terrain made from rubbish tutorials on their website kind of stuff.

I would also like to see the number of models in a box reflect the actual unit size in a game. Skaven clan rats do this nicely. Beastmen Gor do not.

MusingWarboss
13-03-2014, 14:09
Wintermute will be along in a minute if he isn't rocking backwards and forwards in a corner somewhere sobbing :D

Due to the loss of the old range from the 90s or my slightly erroneous but still somewhat true suggestion that Coat D'Arms is the now long discontinued GW range??

In case anyone's wondering what I'm babbling on about, HMG Paints Ltd. made the old Citadel Colour paints back in the 80s/90s for GW and the range is still mostly available under the Coat D'Arms brand. :)

I think HMG also makes the paint for Foundry and P3 too but to their particular choice blends of colour.

Wintermute
13-03-2014, 19:51
Wintermute will be along in a minute if he isn't rocking backwards and forwards in a corner somewhere sobbing :D

You summoned me :cool:



I think HMG also makes the paint for Foundry and P3 too but to their particular choice blends of colour.

They do.

They also make paint for Miniature Paints, Reaper and GW.

zoggin-eck
17-03-2014, 11:16
While I agree with some of what people are suggesting here, but any mention of the old GW forums being even slightly OK is something I can't agree with! It was a mess, and a mercy killing.

Improving the "What's new today" part of the site would be a good step, in my eyes. It was never a patch on Black Gobbo, but even a couple of years ago it offered at least a teeny tiny bit of content compared to the links to store pages it is now.

Just a suggestion of something they could try (since half this thread is pretty much what they did wrong anyway) is to make like Wizards and realise that making old editions available won't destroy your current editions. A Warhammer/40k/every other game equivalent of (http://www.dndclassics.com/) would be ace. They saw the people scratching around collecting old editions, scanning and sharing what can;t be easily obtained and people moving to other companies and saw that the people who wanted the old stuff weren't buying new editions anyway. Make money selling PDFs and then release hardcover re-releases of the main books. I'd happily buy a new copy of my favourite books (that aren't in new condition at all!).

Again, someone about to buy the 8th WHFB or 6th 40k rulebook won't suddenly stop and buy the 1st edition of either. They might even buy it in addition out of interest to see what the fuss was all about. Hey, I don't know if it would be worth the effort for them, but we're pretty much wishlisting as it is. That Wizards have continued to resurrect old sourcebooks and so on, rather than giving up or just releasing the obvious stuff makes it clear it's working for them. Perhaps GW don't have the same nostalgia factor, so-called "oldhammer movement" or not.



They also make paint for Miniature Paints, Reaper and GW.

Ha, I read a review of Colours of Battle paints, with those familiar bottles in a magazine. Sure enough, it's HMG. When will it end?

Zenithfleet
17-03-2014, 12:00
Just a suggestion of something they could try (since half this thread is pretty much what they did wrong anyway) is to make like Wizards and realise that making old editions available won't destroy your current editions. A Warhammer/40k/every other game equivalent of (http://www.dndclassics.com/) would be ace. They saw the people scratching around collecting old editions, scanning and sharing what can;t be easily obtained and people moving to other companies and saw that the people who wanted the old stuff weren't buying new editions anyway. Make money selling PDFs and then release hardcover re-releases of the main books. I'd happily buy a new copy of my favourite books (that aren't in new condition at all!).

Again, someone about to buy the 8th WHFB or 6th 40k rulebook won't suddenly stop and buy the 1st edition of either. They might even buy it in addition out of interest to see what the fuss was all about. Hey, I don't know if it would be worth the effort for them, but we're pretty much wishlisting as it is. That Wizards have continued to resurrect old sourcebooks and so on, rather than giving up or just releasing the obvious stuff makes it clear it's working for them. Perhaps GW don't have the same nostalgia factor, so-called "oldhammer movement" or not.



"But your royal Kirbyness, 40K will be unbalanced and unplayable!"
"Exactly! We'll market it as the new 7th edition. Then, when everyone hates it, we'll bring back 40K Classic. And make billions. Muhahaha."

You heard it here first folks: GW is the Slurm Queen. :eek:

In all seriousness, bringing back older editions is a great idea and one I'd love to see them do. Particularly 2nd ed 40K since it was more or less a different game.

Athelassan
17-03-2014, 18:11
Back on topic I think GW need to have a major overhaul in order to get us old gamers back onto the GW regular buying bandwagon. They can start by getting rid of finecast and finally accept what a crappy product that it is.

Well, they're already heading in that direction. The latest army releases have had no Finecast elements; all new figures have been plastic.

FWIW, I don't hate Finecast, and I think it has an unfairly poor reputation among GW customers. Early releases under Finecast were of variable and sometimes poor cast quality; that was a problem. That the price went up when the cost of the raw material went down was also a bit of a gut-punch. And yes, to be told that it was the best thing since sliced bread when clearly it wasn't anything of the sort was annoying. But Finecast now? It's fine. It has several advantages over metal, and few disadvantages in comparison.

Now, while I certainly wouldn't object to GW going back to metal, and I do marginally prefer metal over Finecast for largely intangible reasons, I don't think it's likely to happen. In which case the only viable switch is either to a new resin (why bother?) or to plastic across the board. But plastic is also inherently a love/hate material and the way GW are currently using it isn't even making the best of it. Going to a completely plastic range might not annoy as many people as going to a Finecast-only range would have, but it will undoubtedly annoy and put off a lot of customers all the same, most of them the "old gamers" who were put off by Finecast in the first place, so you won't win them back anyway.

For me, a mixed plastic/Finecast range (assuming metal is gone forever) still makes the most sense.

MusingWarboss
17-03-2014, 21:02
Ha, I read a review of Colours of Battle paints, with those familiar bottles in a magazine. Sure enough, it's HMG. When will it end?

What's everyone got against the HMG paints? I love them! I've had many of my paints over 25 years! They're still useable too - which is more than can be said for GW's slow setting rubber that they've been selling since the introduction of the black screwtops. The latest GW stuff seems to be ok though, by that I mean I opened them more than a month ago and they're still liquid. Ironically except the liquid green stuff, which isn't. Perhaps the current pots are just better. I do like the Vallejo dropper bottles but the nozzles clog up and I've accidentally ruined the lids by over-tightening them in the past. So I just transferred the paint to the HMG style pots and its surviving just fine. :D


Hmmm. In my neck of the woods most of the young gamers (18-25 yr old range) have NEVER played a GW game. I know, hard to believe, but they only know GW as that ridiculously overpriced game. If you offer to let them use one of your armies to teach them, they even don't want to play. They already are playing X-Wing, Bolot Action, FoW, Infinity, Malifaux, et al. Bolt Action and Flames of War is extremely popular with the young crowd here.


I tried once, on an evening when it was a younger gamer and myself in the store. Had two armies with me, offered to let him us an entire army. Said he wasn't interested. Out of curiosity I asked why, and he offered to show me. He picked up the new plastic Space Marine Librarian (At $30 US) and a Hell Dorado character figure (happened to be the product line closet to where he was at) which was $10.99.


He looked at me and said something to the effect "$11 for metal and $30 for cheap plastic?" This GW company is seriously whacked with what they charge for cheap plastic and I have no interest. You older guys waste your money on this junk, but it is your money. Me and my friends won't go near this game." I told him about it being a character model, explained how troops were cheaper, etc. How fun it was to play with such variety. All the typical drivel we have used for years. He response after my drivel was (and I will never forget this line), "Dude, no game is that good to pay so much money for cheap plastic models."


This has become such a common occurrence in my neck of the woods that GW now takes up the smallest amount of shelf space of most of the miniature games. If you want GW from my FLGS, most of it has to be special order now.


The same way many of us years ago got into the GW hobby by playing Space Hulk, Warhammer Quest, et al. which on boarded us to the plastic crack game is what I see happening with the younger players now. That, and while most of us have played a long time and lived with the price increases, those who haven't played the game do not see the self-proclaimed "premium" game that GW claims it to be and instead see a ridiculously overpriced plastic model game.


Just some food for thought.

I thought this was more appropriate here. Probably contravened many Warseer rules but, hey, better than clogging up the Mantic thread with OT talk.

So. Yeah, I'm not surprised at all. Now my friends and I may be of the old-guard and therefore our opinions may be shaped by how we grew up but it's reassuring to hear younger players share similar views!

Metals (to us) have always been the premium quality product, plastics the bulk filler stuff and vehicles where metal would be awkward and inappropriate. Resin can be cheaper but is supposed to be super-sharp detail.

I still think of the metals as the better product. Now we can debate this a lot but it usually boils down to two arguments against it: 1: Metal is harder to work with, 2: Its chips easier. Fair enough, I won't deny this. But metal still feels less like a toy, the sheer heft of it makes you think on a psychological level that you've got a quality product, an 18 plastic model does not. Likewise a box of 40 plastic soldiers makes you think you've got a decent value product, a box of five does not, no matter how shiny and multipart.

Out of my gaming buddies I'm the one who has the most plastic models, being the Ork guy. Unavoidable these days, though I've got a 2nd Ed Snakebite-themed force which is mostly metal.

GW's Character models could and still should be metal. The Finecast was supposed to be cashing in on the resin scene but backfired massively. So, so many other companies all of which are smaller than GW are still using metals, they're also a hell of a lot cheaper too. The resins are cheaper also! It's got to the point that I'm thinking that if GW increases prices on the Ork stuff later in the year it will actually be better to buy all Kromlech models!! Its nostalgia and a love of the old GW that's keeping us here, wasting money on their now outrageously priced and packaged stuff. Newer players/collectors don't have that loyalty at all.

I can move on to other games sure, though not all of my mates will bother to come across to other systems and I have tried suggesting some alternatives, but the lure of GW is strong with us old addicts. There comes a time when you realise you've sunk so much into your hobby over the decades that it's really too late to move on and let expensive kit lie idle - as I'll come back to later. If I was in my teens these days I would look at the GW stuff and then go to the competition as its easier to get into and cheaper. Where are the Man-O-War, Necromunda, Mordheim, Bloodbowl, Battlefleet, Gorkamorka, Space Hulk, Adptus Titanicus and Warhammer Quest's now to get people into the GW scene with a handful of models a tabletop? No-where that's where.

Games Workshop could make things a lot, lot better by realising that they're not Mattel, Fischer-Price or LEGO. They're not an ***** toy company, if they want to compete against those guys they'll get crushed. They're a Miniatures company (they should be a Games company but one step at a time) and if they claim to be producing the best quality miniatures in the world then they would do well to utilise their plastic production to its advantage, rather than work against the technology, merge Forgeworld into the parent company and produce high-quality resin models as part of the main range and bring back Metal miniature castings for the Characters, unique models and collectors/classic ranges.

Every miniature they produce is for a game they produce, the game structure is at odds with the model range pricing and quantity though - this dissuades people not already hooked (or suffering from lead poisoning perhaps) from buying into the games OR the models. Most 40k models are not generic enough to be used anywhere else - so why buy them if you don't play?? WFB models can be but then again they compete against their own LotR/Hobbit fantasy models and everyone else's generic fantasy models, so why buy GW?

Almost everyone else who are making Character pieces is using metal or resin - why? Because its better for those small runs, better for skirmish and better for details. Fantasy, Sci-Fi or Historical.

Almost everyone who are doing mass battle games are using plastics - why? Because you can churn out thousands of sprues easily!!

Then there's GW- who use plastic to make... single characters, boxes of 5-10 models, gaming tables... The only things I agree with plastic are the vehicles, flyers and big stuff where resin and metal gets very heavy and unwieldable.

Wayshuba
17-03-2014, 22:09
Then there's GW- who use plastic to make... single characters, boxes of 5-10 models, gaming tables... The only things I agree with plastic are the vehicles, flyers and big stuff where resin and metal gets very heavy and unwieldable.

This coupled with my previous comment gets us back to the subject of this thread. If GW were actually to look outside their office doors in Nottingham, they would see their are some tremendous opportunities for growth and to utilize their scale here.

First, they need to use their use of plastic to gain a pricing ADVANTAGE over their competition, instead of viewing it as a way to squeeze every less penny of profit out of each and every model. All 28mm troop models should be no more than $1 per figure (Perry Miniatures can seem to price them there). Now troop boxes would be $9.99 to $19.99 and make getting new players so much easier. Elites should be about $4 a model and characters (in plastic) should be $7-$8 model. Tanks should be $20-$30 at best (Warlord sells 28 mm RESIN tanks for less than GW sells plastic). These super walkers should be going for about $30-$40 a kit - not the post hundred dollar pricing they are at now.

All GW is doing by keeping prices this high is enabling their competition to charge higher prices and make even more profit than GW, since their cost structure isn't as high. GW could use their scale to crush competition with pricing their competitors couldn't match. But, stupidly, they keep blindly going down this erroneous path.

Secondly, they need to become a "games company" again. They should quickly get out a new and updated skirmish system for both the IPs (ala Necromunda and Mordheim). This gives them the on boarding games again and combats the Infinity, Malifaux, et al. games. After that, I think they should work on a 10 mm - 15 mm updated version of Epic to combat Flames of War and Dropzone Commander. Next, they should end their licensing on the board games and start manufacturing them again. Come out with a new version of Talisman with a low cost plastic and cardboard 3D game board (remember the game of Life?). Now they have their core bases covered. After that, regularly expand with new games (Battlefleet Gothic, Warhammer Quest to bridge with the boardgaming/RPG crowd, etc.).

Third, start kissing butt of the channel and win them back. Let internet retailers use the product images to sell products again. Get engaged with customers again. Admit that the internet exists and it is not going to go away. Stop being absolute idiots about this.

Lastly, knock it off with the silly IP defense for no reason. Start focusing on trying to expand the IP in other areas. Get the Black Library books into main book channels, work on TV shows or movies, get more video games, etc. Make more than the hobby world aware of the IP to draw people in.

I realize none of it will happen, though, because it is just too much common sense and proven successful business tactics and that, is something, GW is in amazing absence of right now.

ashc
17-03-2014, 22:13
-snip-


Next, they should end their licensing on the board games and start manufacturing them again. Come out with a new version of Talisman with a low cost plastic and cardboard 3D game board (remember the game of Life?). Now they have their core bases covered. After that, regularly expand with new games (Battlefleet Gothic, Warhammer Quest to bridge with the boardgaming/RPG crowd, etc.).

I don't think I would get on board with this. FFG does a great job producing board games, let them. GW get a decent enough revenue from letting FFG produce the games and the games are better than GW doing it in-house.

MusingWarboss
17-03-2014, 22:34
How board is board though? Currently GW doesn't let FFG make games that may compete with its main IP - so no 28mm collectable games. BUT, FFG could make a pretty decent version of BloodBowl, Warhammer Quest* and Space Hulk - its just GW won't let them. They all effectively play "on a board" rather than a bare table or games table so would you like to see FFG do those games again, or would you like GW to do them?

I imagine if the miniatures weren't directly compatible with GWs own range, making them 20mm or 35mm would do and would satisfy some of GWs current criteria. Heck WHQ an SH don't even need any extra miniatures and BB could come with 4-6 teams in the box and have an expansion (like dungeon bowl with an additinoal 4-6).

*I know they already have some similar to this.

Bloodknight
17-03-2014, 22:50
IMO they should outsource the rules systems to FFG completely, they'd do a better job with them than GW does in house.

MusingWarboss
17-03-2014, 22:59
If Dreadfleet had been written by FFG, it'd still be selling now. Their audience would probably have loved a naval game too.

Verm1s
17-03-2014, 23:23
I tried once, on an evening when it was a younger gamer and myself in the store. Had two armies with me, offered to let him us an entire army. Said he wasn't interested. Out of curiosity I asked why, and he offered to show me. He picked up the new plastic Space Marine Librarian (At $30 US) and a Hell Dorado character figure (happened to be the product line closet to where he was at) which was $10.99.


He looked at me and said something to the effect "$11 for metal and $30 for cheap plastic?" This GW company is seriously whacked with what they charge for cheap plastic and I have no interest. You older guys waste your money on this junk, but it is your money. Me and my friends won't go near this game." I told him about it being a character model, explained how troops were cheaper, etc. How fun it was to play with such variety. All the typical drivel we have used for years. He response after my drivel was (and I will never forget this line), "Dude, no game is that good to pay so much money for cheap plastic models."

Pfahahahahahaha

Beautiful.


I can move on to other games sure, though not all of my mates will bother to come across to other systems and I have tried suggesting some alternatives, but the lure of GW is strong with us old addicts. There comes a time when you realise you've sunk so much into your hobby over the decades that it's really too late to move on and let expensive kit lie idle - as I'll come back to later...

Most 40k models are not generic enough to be used anywhere else - so why buy them if you don't play??

Arg, the old sunk cost fallacy monster rears it's head once again.

For one thing, if you and your fellow GW gamers are feeling the strain, if there's no local arms race - Red Queen, keeping up with the Joneses etc. - just stop buying. If you have enough for two ork armies, what's GW gonna release that you actually need?

Secondly, there are rules you can still use your existing GW minis with, if you look beyond the shiny, proprietary, conjoined-rules-and-minis, buy-everything-official-from-us, GW-lite games. (Unfortunately largely the same ones that Wayshuba is encountering.) Instead of 40K, try Warpath, Stargrunt II, 5150, Victory Decision: Future Combat, etc. If Warhammer starts to bore, try KoW, Mayhem, Fantasy Warriors, HoTT, Warmaster. Try adapting stats for Hail Caesar, Reaper's Warlord or LotR's system. Maybe even get together with your friends and write your own rules. Keep the background and the minis; just change what happens when you roll the dice.

That's my attitude to this thread: don't bother about making GW better, just strip-mine it for what you want and look elsewhere for bits that GW doesn't do to satisfaction. Maybe Yabba will turn up and grace us with his sig-line. I know GW seems to be pretty clueless about wallet-voting so far, but just leave them to it 'til they take notice or fall flat.

Lastly, spent too much money on GW to stop, and buy other minis? Did you stay up late one night when you were eleven, and work out a lifetime minis budget?

MusingWarboss
18-03-2014, 00:58
Arg, the old sunk cost fallacy monster rears it's head once again.

For one thing, if you and your fellow GW gamers are feeling the strain, if there's no local arms race - Red Queen, keeping up with the Joneses etc. - just stop buying. If you have enough for two ork armies, what's GW gonna release that you actually need?

Stop buying... I have! Otherwise I'll never get to the end of this mound of painting! Both Ork armies (old and new) were started in the 90s, I came back to it in about 2011. The newer one has had some additions over the last few years to pad out things I never owned (like a Dreadnaught) but that's it. The older one is quite tiny these days (about 30 models) and unusable under 3rd+ as GW in their infinite wisdom killed nearly all the rules for them. Actually the vast majority of the new stuff has come from ebay and is metal, or from an old AoBR box. So, cheaper...

But you're right on one thing, there's no arms race. :D Thankfully, I can do without that rubbish.



Secondly, there are rules you can still use your existing GW minis with, if you look beyond the shiny, proprietary, conjoined-rules-and-minis, buy-everything-official-from-us, GW-lite games. (Unfortunately largely the same ones that Wayshuba is encountering.) Instead of 40K, try Warpath, Stargrunt II, 5150, Victory Decision: Future Combat, etc. If Warhammer starts to bore, try KoW, Mayhem, Fantasy Warriors, HoTT, Warmaster. Try adapting stats for Hail Caesar, Reaper's Warlord or LotR's system. Maybe even get together with your friends and write your own rules. Keep the background and the minis; just change what happens when you roll the dice.

We tried Warpath. It wasn't well received... Not tried the other SF ones, will do sometime. I have started collecting a KoW Undead army - mostly because I always wanted an undead army, its very cool - though there is a bit of a Fantasy backlash here, so it doesn't see many outings. Hell I face some grumblings when I dug out the old 2nd ed 40k rules, its the same figures! Plus the Snakebites can live again with their own rules not as proxies. Can't win sometimes.

I'm gonna make up some HoTT armies though, I've even planned it out - I can make three armies just out of the old Grenadier and Ral Partha models I've got sitting in a box nearby... now IF I can get just anyone to play... they don't even have to supply the models!!



That's my attitude to this thread: don't bother about making GW better, just strip-mine it for what you want and look elsewhere for bits that GW doesn't do to satisfaction. Maybe Yabba will turn up and grace us with his sig-line. I know GW seems to be pretty clueless about wallet-voting so far, but just leave them to it 'til they take notice or fall flat.

They won't. GW or some players. In an age whereby players focus on the rules and not the fluff then there is nothing to strip. That's like asking a boy racer to give up pimping his hatchback and just get a better car overall. It misses the point. They're not playing 40k or WFB because of it being the best, its not, they're enjoying the challenge of playing within GWs bizarre ecosystem.

GW will keep selling at an ever higher price to anyone who will buy. Even if its just one very rich guy buying a $1,000,000 model. They are that clueless.



Lastly, spent too much money on GW to stop, and buy other minis? Did you stay up late one night when you were eleven, and work out a lifetime minis budget?

Funnily enough... I didn't. In fact I've always brought models from a variety of sources, but it was the GW games that they got used in. And they were mostly fantasy ones.

I don't think it is too much of a fallacy to say that once you've brought into a system, you want to use it though - even if its just display. Despite ebay's sometimes odd pricing you'll not recoup it by selling it that's for sure. Sure, you can port some stuff over to a new system but then its just a case of you having to take across the fluff yourself - at which point why just not play the original game? Sod it, if I'm going to play a new game I may as well make a clean break and play Hail Caesar or something - have a new environment and models. A fresh start and leave the GW IP with its own system. As I've got GW stuff though, I'm damn well going to use it.

zoggin-eck
18-03-2014, 01:17
What's everyone got against the HMG paints?

Huh? I was joking! I find it amusing how many "new" paints come out that are pretty much slightly different shades of the same quality paint :) Most of my paints are theirs under different names, which is fine with me. If I were to start again, I'd just stick to the Coat D'arms range for consistency. I don't think I've ever read anything against them anyway, except from dropper bottle addicts :D

Actually, a few years ago after years of just using old paints and buying the odd new GW paint pot, I came awfully close to crying tears of joy from the memories as I tore off the plastic tag on one of their paint pots!

MusingWarboss
18-03-2014, 01:55
Huh? I was joking! I find it amusing how many "new" paints come out that are pretty much slightly different shades of the same quality paint :) Most of my paints are theirs under different names, which is fine with me. If I were to start again, I'd just stick to the Coat D'arms range for consistency. I don't think I've ever read anything against them anyway, except from dropper bottle addicts :D

Actually, a few years ago after years of just using old paints and buying the odd new GW paint pot, I came awfully close to crying tears of joy from the memories as I tore off the plastic tag on one of their paint pots!

:) Must've read it wrong! I'm thinking of getting some more Coat D'Arms when some of my others runs out. I get what you mean though, how many paint brands by one manufacturer do we need!! I guess there's never too much choice. ;)

You can't beat opening a new pot of paint though!

Wayshuba
18-03-2014, 11:08
Pfahahahahahaha

Beautiful.

I will add that between that incident, and the enlightening comment, seeing the veteran player base dwindle from 16 players to 2 (me and one other) since December, GW's recent financial numbers, the total increase in gamers in my FLGs (just not playing 40k), it is becoming apparent that this is a seriously troubling trend for the future of GW. I know some are saying 40k has never been better in their areas, but GW once dominated universally in all areas. Now it seems they are down to pockets of veterans that they NEED to squeeze more cash out of just to survive. Eventually, even that well runs dry and when it does, GW will be going away fast - because they are not picking up new players.

It reminds me once of a meeting I had with the Director in charge of publishing TV Guide magazine. He once told me their biggest problem was their customer base dying off (literally). In other words, only older users were keeping the magazine a float (they weren't gaining new customers), and they had reached an age where that base was beginning to shrink due to deaths.

I think GW has a similar problem. When I look at the pictures of recent tournaments or events in 40k online, you RARELY see young gamers (in their late teens and early twenties). Instead, the young ones seem to average in their thirties, and then move up to more mature fuddy-duddies (in or near their 50s), like myself. Contrast that with pictures from a con of players playing Warmahordes, X-Wing, Flames of War or even D&D and you will see the dramatic difference in the age groups. It seems every other company EXCEPT GW is attracting the next generation of lifelong gamers.

ObiWayneKenobi
18-03-2014, 12:07
But GW doesn't realize that or more likely ignores it. They like to pretend they have a luxury item but it's made from a cheap material and the only thing luxury is the price.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

MusingWarboss
18-03-2014, 12:33
Hence the earlier talk about metal being a higher quality product which GW has abandoned but is recognised by even new players as being "a better product" than mass produced plastic.

Grocklock
18-03-2014, 15:36
Hence the earlier talk about metal being a higher quality product which GW has abandoned but is recognised by even new players as being "a better product" than mass produced plastic.

High cost doesn't mean better, I'm glad to see the back of the days of metal models. A product which is hard to model with and stick together. The finecast Zoe never had the same head problems as the metal ones. I've always found metal models look great, bit are hard to game with as they easily chip or break at the glue points.

Now some of this is due to having shaky hands so my models need to be a bit more robussed. So if I was to rank the materials it would be plastic, finecast metal.

MusingWarboss
18-03-2014, 16:31
High cost doesn't mean better, I'm glad to see the back of the days of metal models. A product which is hard to model with and stick together. The finecast Zoe never had the same head problems as the metal ones. I've always found metal models look great, bit are hard to game with as they easily chip or break at the glue points.

Now some of this is due to having shaky hands so my models need to be a bit more robussed. So if I was to rank the materials it would be plastic, finecast metal.

You can get metal models at almost every gaming company - even GW! The days of metal models are still firmly here even if GW has decided to go all plastic.

Who said it was high cost anyway? Most companies seem to be offering metal at cheaper prices than GW offers plastic. Are you talking about raw costs? Even so, most companies seem to be offering metal models cheaper than GW's plastics. Arguably GW is in a better position to offer metals cheaper than the competitors due to the sheer bulk it could buy at but they didn't - they said it was too expensive for them, moved to resin and raised the price for customers anyway.

As for the other bit, I refer you back to one of my earlier comments on this thread:

I still think of the metals as the better product. Now we can debate this a lot but it usually boils down to two arguments against it: 1: Metal is harder to work with, 2: Its chips easier. Fair enough, I won't deny this. But metal still feels less like a toy, the sheer heft of it makes you think on a psychological level that you've got a quality product, an 18 plastic model does not. Likewise a box of 40 plastic soldiers makes you think you've got a decent value product, a box of five does not, no matter how shiny and multipart.

I've no doubt you may dislike working with metals and I can totally see why but put it into perspective, they way GW made them towards the latter years as multi-part kits* rather than a solid casting caused many of those issues. Then there's the whole leaded/unleaded discussion. And glues, we could open a whole thread on the merits and disadvantages of different types of glues. For metals, I've gone with the wisdom of the 80s guys who used two part epoxy, it's far more durable than superglue which goes brittle over time. Combined with pinning and you have very strong bonds. Of course a heavy metal model won't stand being dropped on a hard floor though. Then again, nor would a heavy resin or plastic model either.

Plastic certainly has its advantages, as does resin but if you were to poll ordinary people I think you'd find that they view metal products as higher quality than plastic ones. Why do you think Apple moved to machining its products out of metal rather than use the polycarbonate that they did previously? Why was there such a backlash against the 5c as a "plastic" product?

People new to the hobby seeing metal models going for small sums vs a box with a handful of plastic miniatures going for three times the amount... There's just no real material value in the plastics, that's my point. It's just inflated because that's what GW has decided.

*Some things needed to be multipart to assemble, others they just made like that because they wanted to. Bigger kits and flyers would always have been better in resin or plastic, or mixed as the weight worked against them after a while.

Athelassan
18-03-2014, 16:34
Realistically, the plastic vs metal argument is never going to be settled. Apart from anything else, they're better for different things. Plastic is good for large kits or kits with lots of joints where it helps keep the weight down and is easier to glue, or for churning out massive quantities of the same items. Metal is generally better for single-piece figures where joining isn't such an issue and where its ability to carry more detail comes into play.

Ten-fifteen years ago I and my groups used to wish that GW would provide us with more plastic figures, but there were a couple of implicit assumptions in that. Firstly, that there wouldn't be a noticeable depreciation in quality, and secondly, that plastic models would be cheaper than metal ones. Yet I look now at a range where the plastic figures are not only not as good as the metal figures they replaced but in most cases not as good as the plastic figures of that era, and also more expensive per figure than metal used to be, and wonder what went wrong.

Apart from anything else, metal just feels like a more expensive material. It has weight and substance and is shiny and doesn't come with double the quantity of what you're paying for in wasted material. In consumer electronics, reducing weight is a selling-point, but unless you're either seriously flimsy or do a serious amount of travelling, that's not really an issue with tabletop miniatures. For hobbyists and collectors, rather than pure gamers, a metal figure seems inherently more durable and, ultimately, valuable, than a plastic one. It's clearly not just nostalgia from the Oldhammer lot, either; it's an instinctive thing picked up on by new hobbyists too. There's a kind of inherent upper limit to the perceived value of a plastic figure, which is why it sticks in the craw that a modern plastic character model is more expensive than an equivalent Finecast one (before even taking into account that Finecast is more expensive than metal used to be!). It makes it feel like a complete rip-off.

As I say, there are advantages to plastic and it wouldn't be appropriate for all, or even most, of the range to be metal any more. While I applaud the ambition of kits like the 2000 Steam Tank (and slightly prefer the aesthetic to the newer one) there's clearly a fundamental flaw there. Switching to plastic for that sort of thing and for bulk regiments makes perfect sense. But not, I think, necessarily across the board. GW is also, if not the only one, then at least one of very few miniatures companies going plastic across the board. There's clearly still a thriving market out there for metal.

There's always an element of subjectivity, of course. I hear people praising the detail of the new Dwarfs' beards and wonder whether I'm the only one who thinks they look like they've been modelled on Davy Jones in Pirates of the Caribbean. I see people extolling the virtues of the Witch Elves, while personally thinking the "dramatic" poses get a bit repetitive even in a unit of ten. I read about... actually, no, I don't think I ever see anyone defending the barefoot State Trooper any more. Which is another reason why it's useful to have some variety in the range, to appeal to a slightly broader market. If you go all-plastic, you lose all those customers who are only really interested in metal.

MusingWarboss
18-03-2014, 16:55
Athelassen - this is what I've been saying all along, though perhaps you've written it in a more succinct manner. Each material has its own merits and it's own limitations, the problem is that instead of working to the best of each material GW just keep on making the wrong choices. They made increasingly larger multipart metal models, even flyers which had the weight of itself working against it. They completely messed up resin casting, despite owning a sub company which specialised in resin casting. They produce limited runs of mass produced plastic and price them very high. It's just backwards on each step.

We too rooted for plastics back in the 90s - what we were expecting were big boxes stuffed to the brim with basic troops, where metals became very expensive to collect. We got some, the they dialled down the number of models in the boxes. WTF GW? Don't you realise what mass-produced means? Have you never heard of economies of scale??

I also made the point, in the pricing thread (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7102517), that the plastics we get now are not as good as the plastics they just replaced.

"The plastics they produce now are far superior to the plastics of the 90s but not against the plastics of the previous modern generation. At one time multi-part meant you could assemble them how you liked. Now multi-part means they just come in several bits and really they go together in one or two ways, depending on box. Someone took the literal approach there.

Once we had models for everything, now they're increasingly doubling up and in one case I know of, tripling up! Coupled with the point above and we have the new monopose!!"



Apart from anything else, metal just feels like a more expensive material. It has weight and substance and is shiny and doesn't come with double the quantity of what you're paying for in wasted material. In consumer electronics, reducing weight is a selling-point, but unless you're either seriously flimsy or do a serious amount of travelling, that's not really an issue with tabletop miniatures. For hobbyists and collectors, rather than pure gamers, a metal figure seems inherently more durable and, ultimately, valuable, than a plastic one. It's clearly not just nostalgia from the Oldhammer lot, either; it's an instinctive thing picked up on by new hobbyists too. There's a kind of inherent upper limit to the perceived value of a plastic figure, which is why it sticks in the craw that a modern plastic character model is more expensive than an equivalent Finecast one (before even taking into account that Finecast is more expensive than metal used to be!). It makes it feel like a complete rip-off.

This is the real point I've been trying to say about the public and "better". Metal just feels expensive, quality and luxury. Plastic does not. This is irrespective of the merits of modelling or playing with the models, metal models will always look and feel like a higher quality product. Plus on a a basic raw material level, a ton of plastic won't fetch the price of a ton of metal.

It's just seems to be a basic human thing. Metal is more valuable.

shelfunit.
18-03-2014, 17:38
... the plastics we get now are not as good as the plastics they just replaced....

You want to see the things that plastics can be used for in wargaming now, you need look no further than the soon(ish) to be released Kingdom Death plastics - not linking them as the subject matter may be "mod-erable", but the quality is incredible.

MusingWarboss
18-03-2014, 18:43
You want to see the things that plastics can be used for in wargaming now, you need look no further than the soon(ish) to be released Kingdom Death plastics - not linking them as the subject matter may be "mod-erable", but the quality is incredible.

I've seen some of their resin stuff and the quality of that, sculpting wise, is fantastic. Imagery is a bit... Well, yeah. It's its own thing. :eek:

Nothing says plastic *can't* be fantastic, its more that it shouldn't cost three or four times the level of metal or HQ resin models to buy!

I expect plastic tooling to be sharp no matter who makes them - unlike those Mantic goblins that looked like they were slightly melted for my inconvenience. :shifty:

Athelassan
18-03-2014, 20:18
@MusingWarboss: yeah, I've been following your posts on this subject and have broadly agreed with everything you've said.

Essentially, there are always going to be some people who don't like metal and want the whole range to go plastic. I don't want to say they're wrong, but they're certainly not the only customer base out there and for GW to pander exclusively to that interest seems like a mistake to me. Especially since one of the most tangible and useful advantages of plastic over metal - ease of conversion - is being increasingly rendered irrelevant by the difficulty of (officially) procuring individual components for conversions anyway.



You want to see the things that plastics can be used for in wargaming now, you need look no further than the soon(ish) to be released Kingdom Death plastics - not linking them as the subject matter may be "mod-erable", but the quality is incredible.
Yeah, I've seen some companies doing amazing things with plastics. Is GW one of those companies? Instinctively, I'd say no, but that's perhaps unfair. GW have produced some really excellent plastic kits, especially in 40K. But I don't think they've been doing that with enough consistency, imagination or variety, especially in fantasy. What I see now is a range with a handful of great (ifat times slightly homogenous) centrepieces surrounded by a horde of dull, over-detailed (and often outright horrible) pseudo-monoposes. GW should really be doing better than that, especially when you consider that other competitors are doing better, at lower volumes and lower retail price.

Wayshuba
18-03-2014, 21:18
Hence the earlier talk about metal being a higher quality product which GW has abandoned but is recognised by even new players as being "a better product" than mass produced plastic.

When I relayed that comment earlier, I think it was less about the "quality" of the model and more about even a 19-year old knowing plastic is a substantially cheaper material than metal.

GW is at a point where they are charging more for plastic than most are charging for metal. Dire Avengers at $7 a model is more expensive than most troops from other manufacturer's in metal.

As for the rules making a model, well they don't mean diddly if someone can't get past the $30 price tag on ONE 28 mm model. This is why I have used that model as an example so much in my forum posts, because it really is a shining example of just how insane GW pricing has become for something that has less than a nickel in manufacturing costs. Not to mention, every other manufacturer's plastic kits are very reasonably priced, where as GWs don't look anywhere even near reality anymore. But that is a discussion for another thread.

nosebiter
18-03-2014, 21:21
Immediately reduce prices by 25%.
Freeze price hikes for five years.
Add more sprues to the box. 30 for 10 plastic dwarfs is abysmal!!!!!!
Engage with their customers
Open a forum
Allow comments on FW blog and Youtube videos
Listen to player feedback
Do larger play tests of new rules
Balance games and stop this "we are a miniature nonsense and don't give a crap about the games we produce"
Don't charge for data slates
Change 40k to a four tier system (skirmish games, battle games, escalation games and apocalypse games)
Drop hardcover and special editions of rules that have a 3-5 year life span.
Reduce rule book / codex prices dramatically.
Get rid of general corporate greed in the organisation
RESPECT your customers and stop seeing them as money bag sheep to be slaughtered

We should stage an armed rebellion, and instate you as emperor of GW

nosebiter
18-03-2014, 21:33
I dont mind that GW wants to make luxury items, limited edition books or even limited edition terrain and miniatures.

I just wish they also catered to the rest of us. Bring back 20 softback codexes/armybooks, boxes of troops/cpre that are cheaper and/or contain more models in the box.

They need to adopt the "it costs money to make money" attitude. Make dataslates free, update armybook entries that clearly dont work in WD and free online.

Communicate with us, the customers. Open a new forum.

Reintroduce metals for seriously detailed and complex "expert" miniatures. Or a proper high end resin.

Autumn Leaves
18-03-2014, 21:35
Nothing will get better until the first critical step is taken.
Get rid of Tom Kirby.
Until that happens there can be no genuine improvement.

leopard
18-03-2014, 22:57
Nothing will get better until the first critical step is taken.
Get rid of Tom Kirby.
Until that happens there can be no genuine improvement.

Agree, nothing to do with Tom himself, just the inertia of companies, any dramatic changes in direction need the bod or bods at the top to change to avoid any admission of a mistake, its just a new direction.

Its pants, seriously pants, but it is the way companies run in the UK. Sorry rest of the world, its the same as drinking tea and a legacy of strike action on the tube, just something the UK does well...

Grocklock
18-03-2014, 23:43
You can get metal models at almost every gaming company - even GW! The days of metal models are still firmly here even if GW has decided to go all plastic.

Who said it was high cost anyway? Most companies seem to be offering metal at cheaper prices than GW offers plastic. Are you talking about raw costs? Even so, most companies seem to be offering metal models cheaper than GW's plastics. Arguably GW is in a better position to offer metals cheaper than the competitors due to the sheer bulk it could buy at but they didn't - they said it was too expensive for them, moved to resin and raised the price for customers anyway.

As for the other bit, I refer you back to one of my earlier comments on this thread:

It was a higher cost to GW which is why they stopped producing it, and begin the thase out process, did they make a miss step with finecast yes in the early days but it has got better.

Also compare the kits in metal to plastic there is far more extra parts in plastic kits compared to there metal counterparts.

Reading you post it seams to be that you agree that it is harder to work with, and that it chips easily. But your willing to over look this so you feel like your not buying a toy. Even though you are. It's like saying happy meals should have metal toys for us adults.

At the end of the day they are toys.

Wayshuba
19-03-2014, 00:32
It was a higher cost to GW which is why they stopped producing it, and begin the thase out process, did they make a miss step with finecast yes in the early days but it has got better.

Also compare the kits in metal to plastic there is far more extra parts in plastic kits compared to there metal counterparts.

Reading you post it seams to be that you agree that it is harder to work with, and that it chips easily. But your willing to over look this so you feel like your not buying a toy. Even though you are. It's like saying happy meals should have metal toys for us adults.

At the end of the day they are toys.

Oh shoot. And here I had bought the GW propaganda - that we are buying plastic Rembrandts.

On a serious note the metal/fine cast from GW was a complete crock. They are still selling metal minis today - frequently at or below Fine cast pricing. And while Fine cast casting has improved, it still doesn't negate the fact that the material is not well suited for its intended purpose.

MusingWarboss
19-03-2014, 01:31
It was a higher cost to GW which is why they stopped producing it, and begin the thase out process, did they make a miss step with finecast yes in the early days but it has got better.

Also compare the kits in metal to plastic there is far more extra parts in plastic kits compared to there metal counterparts.

Reading you post it seams to be that you agree that it is harder to work with, and that it chips easily. But your willing to over look this so you feel like your not buying a toy. Even though you are. It's like saying happy meals should have metal toys for us adults.

At the end of the day they are toys.

Hmm. So a company the size of GW couldn't leverage its buying power to get its metal on bulk, or even absorb the cost of higher metal prices knowing that it could and has done many times in the past, raise its prices to compensate? Is that the higher cost we're on about? Even though metal miniatures are still in production at much smaller companies and even garage business levels and often vastly cheaper than the prices GW charging? I call bull on that one. They moved to resin to save themselves some cash, yes, but it seems to be more or less motivated with a desire to move from former 'adult' territory to a greater 'child friendly' one and another extension of the "Toy Soldier Company" they seem to want to become.

We all know Finecast was a botched stand-in 'till they got more plastic rolled out. I firmly believe that they thought it would be good, work well and tested it and confirmed that it was ok - only when the pressures of mass producing it kicked in did it go hideously wrong. Why this is especially annoying is because they already had a load of resin experts next door at Forgeworld who could have helped but it seems they didn't bother with them and their expertise.

Extra parts eh? Well, yeah. Metals work better as one-piece castings, that's the nature of the beast. When GW had the catalogue service you could order any part you liked from it, or any miniature and just whip out your hacksaw. That was half of the point of the lead mix, it was softer to cut and flowed into the mould better. However that lead content made it a very adult only model kit, note not "Toy", model kit. So you saw the "Not suitable for children under the age of 14" labels.

Don't be fooled for one minute if you think that GW won't kill off the extras in the plastic boxes in the future and just leave you with the components needed to build the models - then raise the price. If anything with current trends half the extra bits are the parts you can't use because you decided to build model A rather than B, so B's bits are wasted as you can't get compatible bodies to glue them onto.

I do acknowledge metal's limitations, as the harder "white metal" especially is a pain to cut or drill - if you need to. It chips because its heavier and harder, so knocks or falls have a bigger impact. Paint can wear off plastic and resin too you know - this is why we varnish.

"At the end of the day they are toys" you say. That's the current GW line hook and sinker. It wasn't always so. They were playing pieces for games and lo behold! They still are despite GWs protestations!!. Just scrap the games if they want to sell toys; make the models bigger to GI Joe size and have movable joints and pre-paint them, why stick with the historic 28mm scale fixed model kit thing if they're not designed for display or as playing pieces for games??

Their miniatures and model kits were placed very firmly in the collectables market, like model railways and military dioramas. That didn't preclude children from liking them but they were't aimed at them. Now, they are. Hence "Lets make everything plastic - like toys!", "Let's call ourselves a toy solder company!".

189487

Have a look at my image there, from the personal collection. I've circled it for you. It's circa 1994. THIS IS NOT A TOY.

I'm not a metal crusader despite what my thoughts in this thread may make me sound like - I just think its plain daft that GW call themselves a manufacturer of premium miniatures and then shelve the one material most people would class as premium in favour of mass produced plastic - then charge eye-watering prices for them. Wayshuba is correct - look at GWs online store, metal models still on sale there, many far cheaper than the Plastics or Finecast. I seriously doubt they just have warehouses full of dead stock, some of this stuff is being freshly cast to fill gaps.

ObiWayneKenobi
19-03-2014, 01:42
If they were really toys, then they should be 54mm or whatever like the old Inquisitor figures, and then they could toss out some cheapo "Hey you've bought these miniatures, here's a little skirmish game we threw together" rules, or else there should only be a boxed set like how Space Crusade and Heroquest were back in the day, with expansions that are self-contained with everything you need to play. But no, the figures are 28mm and you're expected to buy dozens if not hundreds of them. What collector would buy that many if they were just collecting dust somewhere, especially at GW's price?

They may spout out that line of BS but it doesn't make it any more true than insisting the sky is green - it just makes you delusional.

Grocklock
19-03-2014, 02:53
Hmm. So a company the size of GW couldn't leverage its buying power to get its metal on bulk, or even absorb the cost of higher metal prices knowing that it could and has done many times in the past, raise its prices to compensate? Is that the higher cost we're on about? Even though metal miniatures are still in production at much smaller companies and even garage business levels and often vastly cheaper than the prices GW charging? I call bull on that one. They moved to resin to save themselves some cash, yes, but it seems to be more or less motivated with a desire to move from former 'adult' territory to a greater 'child friendly' one and another extension of the "Toy Soldier Company" they seem to want to become.

We all know Finecast was a botched stand-in 'till they got more plastic rolled out. I firmly believe that they thought it would be good, work well and tested it and confirmed that it was ok - only when the pressures of mass producing it kicked in did it go hideously wrong. Why this is especially annoying is because they already had a load of resin experts next door at Forgeworld who could have helped but it seems they didn't bother with them and their expertise.

Extra parts eh? Well, yeah. Metals work better as one-piece castings, that's the nature of the beast. When GW had the catalogue service you could order any part you liked from it, or any miniature and just whip out your hacksaw. That was half of the point of the lead mix, it was softer to cut and flowed into the mould better. However that lead content made it a very adult only model kit, note not "Toy", model kit. So you saw the "Not suitable for children under the age of 14" labels.

Don't be fooled for one minute if you think that GW won't kill off the extras in the plastic boxes in the future and just leave you with the components needed to build the models - then raise the price. If anything with current trends half the extra bits are the parts you can't use because you decided to build model A rather than B, so B's bits are wasted as you can't get compatible bodies to glue them onto.

I do acknowledge metal's limitations, as the harder "white metal" especially is a pain to cut or drill - if you need to. It chips because its heavier and harder, so knocks or falls have a bigger impact. Paint can wear off plastic and resin too you know - this is why we varnish.

"At the end of the day they are toys" you say. That's the current GW line hook and sinker. It wasn't always so. They were playing pieces for games and lo behold! They still are despite GWs protestations!!. Just scrap the games if they want to sell toys; make the models bigger to GI Joe size and have movable joints and pre-paint them, why stick with the historic 28mm scale fixed model kit thing if they're not designed for display or as playing pieces for games??

Their miniatures and model kits were placed very firmly in the collectables market, like model railways and military dioramas. That didn't preclude children from liking them but they were't aimed at them. Now, they are. Hence "Lets make everything plastic - like toys!", "Let's call ourselves a toy solder company!".

189487

Have a look at my image there, from the personal collection. I've circled it for you. It's circa 1994. THIS IS NOT A TOY.

I'm not a metal crusader despite what my thoughts in this thread may make me sound like - I just think its plain daft that GW call themselves a manufacturer of premium miniatures and then shelve the one material most people would class as premium in favour of mass produced plastic - then charge eye-watering prices for them. Wayshuba is correct - look at GWs online store, metal models still on sale there, many far cheaper than the Plastics or Finecast. I seriously doubt they just have warehouses full of dead stock, some of this stuff is being freshly cast to fill gaps.

I do understand what your getting at, but GW is clearly making a move towards non plastic a while they do still sell metal models there is not a lot of it. And there have been no new metal models in years. Yes there move resin was cheaper for them but so what. So meany businesses look to save money in cost to give themselves a bigger profit margin, a lot of the big suppermarket chains started making finer carrier bags because they could make more bags for less money.
A lot of things are no priced dependent on cost but on its value. I've been in the hobby for 12 years now and can say in the last 5 I have only spent 100 on my orc and goblins army which is my main fantasy army. Only because I still use the models I bought when I 1st joined 12 years ago. They still hold there value to me as a customer as GW doesn't make to much of a habbit of discontinuing there models.

To the toy comment im sorry but they are, and there is nothing wrong with it being a toy. I have always walked into model train shops or looked at airfix kits and considered them toys. Just because they are not aimed at children doesn't mean they are not toys. A toy doesn't have to be GI joe scale for it to be so.

The pucture in your post is from1994 10 years ago. So in 10 years GW have changed the way they market there product. A lot of things change in 10 years.

Sometimes these post tend to come over like an old man sat in a rocking chair harping in about how it was better in there day. Even though they choose to gloss over the darker parts of the time. When I first started models where on build hell I have 35 orc boys who all look the same apart from the fact they all have slightly different shields. Now kits are so dynamic that each of my 35 orcs can look different. Not alot of other companies offer this.
There are more ways to play the game then back when I started. Spearhead, kill teams, apoc, cities of death, planet strike, storm of magic.
These were not around when I started.

GW is in a golden age in my opinion. And I cannot wait to see what they do next.

There was another comment about GW not offering terrain building from scratch step by step guides on there web site. Bit why would a company do this, if a company makes a product for you who would they also tell you you can do this without us. It's like a drain cleaning company telling you that bicarbonit of soda and vinigar can clean a drain for pennies. Or ford telling you how to kit bash a car.

Now they could do kitbash guides for terrain which would be cool.

Abaraxas
19-03-2014, 03:19
Well for 25 years or whatever they would show you how to build terrain, and even vehichles (deo stick grav vehichle for example)...I guess I wouldn't be bothered if I didn't know any better.

Like buying that FC terminator for $28 or whatever when I know damn well I previously bought it in metal for $9...might seem OK if you don't know any better but stuff that for a joke.

Kitbashing would suit "them" just fine, where you buy 4 scenery kits to make 1 :D

I've realised GW is never going to be what I want it to be again and I've made my peace with that.

Athelassan
19-03-2014, 04:21
Don't be fooled for one minute if you think that GW won't kill off the extras in the plastic boxes in the future and just leave you with the components needed to build the models - then raise the price. If anything with current trends half the extra bits are the parts you can't use because you decided to build model A rather than B, so B's bits are wasted as you can't get compatible bodies to glue them onto.
Absolutely.

And in fact the Dark Elves and Dwarfs releases - the first in fantasy with no metal/FC components at all, I think, is a vision of the future in this respect - single, unipose, character plastic clampacks. Yes, the Belegar or Shadowblade figures are nicer and more detailed and more imaginatively-posed than the plastic monoposes of the early 90s. But they're still monoposes, with no extra components and no options. And they're (much) more expensive than the remaining metal and Finecast character figures in the same ranges.


I do understand what your getting at, but GW is clearly making a move towards non plastic a while they do still sell metal models there is not a lot of it. And there have been no new metal models in years. Yes there move resin was cheaper for them but so what. So meany businesses look to save money in cost to give themselves a bigger profit margin, a lot of the big suppermarket chains started making finer carrier bags because they could make more bags for less money.
I understand a shift to a cheaper material to save money and increase margins. It's galling though when a company moves to a cheaper material and raises prices.

I remember when GW moved from lead-based metal to the newer "white metal" mix in... about 1997 I think. They put a notice in White Dwarf announcing they were changing the material, explaining why, apologising that the newer one would be more expensive and explaining that their products would see a price rise as a result. Now, people did still complain that unrelated products (plastics, paints) went up in price, and maybe some of the prices went up more than they needed to. But at least we were given a reasonable explanation (more expensive material: higher prices).

Compare with Finecast where for some reason a cheaper material gives us higher prices, and they also had the nerve to tell us the new stuff was so much better than the old despite frankly alarming casting issues on the early figures and a largely negligible difference in detail retention once primed, or the unannounced move to plastic across the board with corresponding price rises despite plastic always being the cheaper material.



A lot of things are no priced dependent on cost but on its value. I've been in the hobby for 12 years now and can say in the last 5 I have only spent 100 on my orc and goblins army which is my main fantasy army. Only because I still use the models I bought when I 1st joined 12 years ago. They still hold there value to me as a customer as GW doesn't make to much of a habbit of discontinuing there models.
If by "discontinue", you mean "make obsolete on the tabletop", then you might be right, although my Wood Elves (chariots and all), Empire (especially the Kislevites), 40K armies and entire Man O'War collection would probably disagree. If by "discontinue", you mean the more usual sense of "make older figures unavailable" then I'm afraid that's demonstrably false: any new army release sees swathes of the older range permanently removed, and sometimes it happens even without a new release (see: Specialist Games, Bretonnians).


The pucture in your post is from1994 10 years ago. So in 10 years GW have changed the way they market there product. A lot of things change in 10 years.
Twenty years, actually. A lot of things do change in that time, it's true, but not necessarily for the better. While it's important not to get stuck in a sort of wistful nostalgia with GW (and indeed anything), it's also important not to adopt a blind, Whiggishly optimistic one.


GW is in a golden age in my opinion. And I cannot wait to see what they do next.
Continue to haemmorhage money and fail as a business?


There was another comment about GW not offering terrain building from scratch step by step guides on there web site. Bit why would a company do this, if a company makes a product for you who would they also tell you you can do this without us. It's like a drain cleaning company telling you that bicarbonit of soda and vinigar can clean a drain for pennies. Or ford telling you how to kit bash a car.
It would make some sense for GW not to tell you how to create your own terrain if they actually sold enough of their own that it would be robbing them of a sale. But GW's terrain is limited in range and over-specific. They don't even sell hills!

But even if that weren't the case, it still wouldn't necessarily be a foolish move. Most hobbyists are on a budget, and while some of them undoubtedly will buy all the plastic terrain just because it's there, most will either buy terrain or models, so they have to make the decision between whether to have a table to play on or models to play with. It's another one of those factors that raises the minimum price point of the hobby and is more likely to stop people from starting or getting invested in it. When Little Timmy and Johnny get their first boxes of Space Marines, they're going to want to play with them, but if they have to buy several hundred pounds' worth of plastic gaming board and scenery in order to do so, they probably won't bother, and that decreases the chances of their buying more Marines. If you provide suggestions for ways they could knock up their own terrain then that means they can get cracking right away and get hooked on the products. Then later once they both have armies and their homemade terrain is looking a bit tired the GW terrain is still there for them to buy.

It's the sort of thing that helps the customer to feel that "the hobby" is actually more than "buying stuff". It's also the difference between expanding - and retaining - the customer base and just trying to milk the one you have for all its worth.

Bloodknight
19-03-2014, 11:10
If by "discontinue", you mean "make obsolete on the tabletop", then you might be right, although my Wood Elves (chariots and all), Empire (especially the Kislevites),

BK looks at his 15000 points of Dogs of War and switches on the laser eyes.

Zenithfleet
19-03-2014, 15:13
If any US-based posters are staring in confusion at the '1997' date for the introduction of lead-free GW metal, let me just quickly mention that it seems to have happened a few years earlier in North America. Or so I hear.

I'm a strong supporter of metal models, even to the point of attempting all-metal 40K armies--as others have said, there's something psychologically satisfying about the weight.

I used to have problems with metal models chipping easily, but that was when I brush-undercoated. Things improved when I started washing them first, spray-undercoating, and gloss varnishing at the end (followed by a matt coat to take off the shine). Dropped a metal BFG escort from standing height onto a brick floor last year. No chipping.

On the subject of metal and its flaws, I've often wondered why GW stopped including those explanatory leaflets in metal kits. The ones that came with 2nd ed 40K Hive Tyrants and the like. Explaining things like giving the parts a quick wash in warm soapy water to get rid of any excess mould release, lightly filing/scraping any areas that needed gluing to expose a shinier surface that grips better, how to pin a joint, etc.

I know some of this found its way into the hobby sections of the rulebooks, but some things (like preparing the surface for gluing) never seemed to get mentioned after 2nd ed.

deathspank
19-03-2014, 16:58
threads like this dont work very well because we are on the wrong side of GW, consumers will only put the consumers needs first and more often than not at the detriment of the company, someone mentioned a 25% drop in rrp across the range for example, this would kill off GW plain and simple, GW cannot afford to loose a quarter of its sales revenue, the reduction in RRP may increase sales slightly in the short term, but it would not replace the lost 25%, plus dropping prices doesnt always lead to people spending more, GW believe that people will only spend what they can afford to spend, so if you have $50 a month to spend on models you will spend $50, reducing the price by a quater isnt suddenly gonna make you spend $75 a month because the hobby is slightly cheaper, more likely you will spend $50 and just get more for your money or you will keep the $12.50 saving or spend it on something else or elsewhere.
People will always argue the point that "If GW prices were less i would start another army blah blah blah" but there is little truth in that, people buy what they want to own and in real hobby terms it isnt that expensive when compared the time vs spend.

MusingWarboss
19-03-2014, 17:23
A lot of stuff to reply to and I'm on the smartphone so I'll do that later! But what I will chip in with is that I *don't* think GW is currently in a Golden Age - I think the industry is in a Golden Age for enthusiasts, with all of the new games, kick starters etc. What I do think is that GW is trying to emulate its own last Golden Age of the 90s where they dominated the scene. This is why 6th 40k reminds us oldies ever so much of RT&2nd Ed. I wouldn't be surprised to find the WFB guys have a similar feeling about their game.

I also wouldn't be surprised to find this push at GW is borne from new guys aged 25-45 who've joined and are recreating the games of their youth. Much like that group is keen on the Nostalgia drive of old TV shows, films etc.

shelfunit.
19-03-2014, 17:23
threads like this dont work very well because we are on the wrong side of GW, consumers will only put the consumers needs first and more often than not at the detriment of the company, someone mentioned a 25% drop in rrp across the range for example, this would kill off GW plain and simple, GW cannot afford to loose a quarter of its sales revenue, the reduction in RRP may increase sales slightly in the short term, but it would not replace the lost 25%, plus dropping prices doesnt always lead to people spending more, GW believe that people will only spend what they can afford to spend, so if you have $50 a month to spend on models you will spend $50, reducing the price by a quater isnt suddenly gonna make you spend $75 a month because the hobby is slightly cheaper, more likely you will spend $50 and just get more for your money or you will keep the $12.50 saving or spend it on something else or elsewhere.

Where to begin...

The idea that a drop of 25% in price would lead directly to a hard 25% reduction in revenue is laughable at best. The main reason cited for people not adding to armies/starting new armies/ starting in GW systems full stop is price. You might not like that answer, but it is, by far, the primary reason for new players shunning GW and vets moving on to other systems/manufactuers. Is a reduction in price "guaranteed" to increase sales, no, but raising them is a guarantee to reduce them, which is far worse.
Saying that GW cannot afford to lose 25% of its sale revenue otherwise it's curtains is a little off as well, it lost over 11% of sales revenue in the first 6 months of this financial report, and may have worse to follow in the next.



People will always argue the point that "If GW prices were less i would start another army blah blah blah" but there is little truth in that, people buy what they want to own and in real hobby terms it isnt that expensive when compared the time vs spend.

I've partially addressed this above, but there is no way to really express exactly how incorrect this statement is. If prices were lower many, many people would start a new army, if they were much lower, many would even use GW miniatures for it. The cost might not be "that expensive" when you do a time vs spend graph, but plotted against virtually any other manufacturer/system GW will be relatively far, far more so.

Athelassan
19-03-2014, 17:40
GW believe that people will only spend what they can afford to spend, so if you have $50 a month to spend on models you will spend $50, reducing the price by a quater isnt suddenly gonna make you spend $75 a month because the hobby is slightly cheaper, more likely you will spend $50 and just get more for your money or you will keep the $12.50 saving or spend it on something else or elsewhere.

But this is precisely the problem. I'm not sure GW do think that, or if they do, they estimate what people can afford to spend at too high a level. It seems rather that GW believe people will buy a given product regardless of what it costs because they want it, rather than tailoring their prices to reflect what people can afford to spend on them. If people's maximum price point per month is 30 then boxes priced higher than that just aren't going to sell. Reducing prices would help bring more products back within an affordable range.

However even if prices didn't go down, it would probably help to sell figures in smaller numbers at lower prices. The 35/10 box of Witch Elves is a particularly notorious one; nobody's going to buy that unless they absolutely have to. But at 17/5, or even 10/3, it suddenly starts to look much more affordable.

shelfunit.
19-03-2014, 17:42
However even if prices didn't go down, it would probably help to sell figures in smaller numbers at lower prices. The 35/10 box of Witch Elves is a particularly notorious one; nobody's going to buy that unless they absolutely have to. But at 17/5, or even 10/3, it suddenly starts to look much more affordable.

Not when you still need 30+ to make a worthwhile unit out of them it doesn't.

Athelassan
19-03-2014, 18:05
Not when you still need 30+ to make a worthwhile unit out of them it doesn't.
Well, this is another of the crucial disconnects in GW's thinking. Are they selling model soldiers, or are they selling equipment for a battlegame? If the latter, they ought to be selling their units in usable sizes. If they're just interested in selling the models, they need to be available to whoever wants to buy them - and since these are likely to be impulse purchases, a low minimum volume makes sense. Moreover, if you're selling models to collectors and what have you on their own merits, you can get away with a higher price per model. If you're selling as battlegame kit, you need to adjust the prices accordingly. GW have gone sort of halfway house on it, so you end up with this ridiculous situation where the figures are sold in boxes that are too small for gamers, too big for collectors, and too expensive for either.

cornonthecob
19-03-2014, 21:30
I'd suggest GW just give up the damn ghost and hand everything over to forgeworld, they seem to take the franchise and game making in general seriously enough.

Wayshuba
20-03-2014, 17:01
threads like this dont work very well because we are on the wrong side of GW, consumers will only put the consumers needs first and more often than not at the detriment of the company, someone mentioned a 25% drop in rrp across the range for example, this would kill off GW plain and simple, GW cannot afford to loose a quarter of its sales revenue, the reduction in RRP may increase sales slightly in the short term, but it would not replace the lost 25%, plus dropping prices doesnt always lead to people spending more, GW believe that people will only spend what they can afford to spend, so if you have $50 a month to spend on models you will spend $50, reducing the price by a quater isnt suddenly gonna make you spend $75 a month because the hobby is slightly cheaper, more likely you will spend $50 and just get more for your money or you will keep the $12.50 saving or spend it on something else or elsewhere.
People will always argue the point that "If GW prices were less i would start another army blah blah blah" but there is little truth in that, people buy what they want to own and in real hobby terms it isnt that expensive when compared the time vs spend.

Nope. GW already did this and it will not increase by a little it will increase by a LOT. There is plenty of truth, and proof, that dropping prices will have a positive impact on GWs top line revenues.

Chapterhouse lawsuit information available shows that when Tac Squads were $25 GW sold almost 11,000 (10,987 to be exact) boxes in one year. Since they went to $40, GW sold just under 1,800 (1,762 to be exact) kits. The SM Tac Squad is the single best selling product, year after year, in the GW product portfolio. So, at $25 box, GW sold $275k worth of them, at $40 box, GW sold under $72k of them.

Plenty of evidence was in the Chapterhouse lawsuit to show this. Of course, GW blames the drop in unit sales on companies like Chapterhouse, instead of their own decisions.

Hate to say it, but past evidence from their OWN business records show a 50% drop or more in pricing would result in over 500% more in unit sales. The evidence is all there. GW is just plain being completely stupid is what it is.

You're right that dropping prices will not necessarily lead to people spending more overall. However, many people are currently spending their cash on other things besides GW because of the pricing. With a drop in pricing, this is cash that GW could recapture that is currently going to other manufacturers.

Coldhatred
21-03-2014, 16:15
But this is precisely the problem. I'm not sure GW do think that, or if they do, they estimate what people can afford to spend at too high a level. It seems rather that GW believe people will buy a given product regardless of what it costs because they want it, rather than tailoring their prices to reflect what people can afford to spend on them. If people's maximum price point per month is 30 then boxes priced higher than that just aren't going to sell. Reducing prices would help bring more products back within an affordable range.

However even if prices didn't go down, it would probably help to sell figures in smaller numbers at lower prices. The 35/10 box of Witch Elves is a particularly notorious one; nobody's going to buy that unless they absolutely have to. But at 17/5, or even 10/3, it suddenly starts to look much more affordable.

I'll hop in and say that I know for a fact they don't believe in the "customers have only a certain amount to spend" spiel. When I went through training and went to the quarterly meetings, one of the many ideas espoused was that it wasn't our job as retail staff to worry about what the customer can afford. You try your hardest to sell them what they want, not what they need. Part of this sprang up because retail have a ridiculous amount of pressure placed upon them as a business unit, but this has been the line of management for years.

Abaraxas
21-03-2014, 16:35
Putting aside the fact they have gotten rid of or are planning to get rid of 95% of products (besides paint) I'd like to purchase from them, the current prices ensure I don't spend ANY money on their products (besides paint).

A few years ago I would spend $20-50 a week at GW, now not a red cent.

If there was a (considerable, unrealistic 25%) price drop across the board I would consider forking out for some stuff, but as it stands no way in hell.

I'd make it better by dropping the price...has anybody mentioned the price yet?

williamsond
21-03-2014, 16:58
We have a whole thread just for that ;)

Athelassan
21-03-2014, 17:28
I'll hop in and say that I know for a fact they don't believe in the "customers have only a certain amount to spend" spiel. When I went through training and went to the quarterly meetings, one of the many ideas espoused was that it wasn't our job as retail staff to worry about what the customer can afford. You try your hardest to sell them what they want, not what they need. Part of this sprang up because retail have a ridiculous amount of pressure placed upon them as a business unit, but this has been the line of management for years.
Well, that's unsurprising. Unfortunately it's not grounded in the real world, or at least not the real world now. On the one hand, as a message to inculcate in your staff, selling the customer what they want rather than what they need isn't a bad mantra (after all, nobody really needs anything GW sell), even if it has a tendency to come across as a little aggressive and pushy. But there's simply a financial line beyond which people won't be pushed. I'm as susceptible to "crap I don't need" as anyone, and often I'll exceed what I'd planned to spend on something. But there's a 'soft' limit for that - "I shouldn't spend more than x" and a 'hard' limit - "if I spend more than y I can't afford the rent this month". While spending above y isn't unheard of, it's surely a lot less common than it was pre-Crash, so basing a sales strategy around it seems utterly mad. I find that a lot of GW products are pushing my hard limit; there's almost nothing within my soft limit at all (discounting paints, etc.)

Coldhatred
21-03-2014, 18:07
Well, that's unsurprising. Unfortunately it's not grounded in the real world, or at least not the real world now. On the one hand, as a message to inculcate in your staff, selling the customer what they want rather than what they need isn't a bad mantra (after all, nobody really needs anything GW sell), even if it has a tendency to come across as a little aggressive and pushy. But there's simply a financial line beyond which people won't be pushed. I'm as susceptible to "crap I don't need" as anyone, and often I'll exceed what I'd planned to spend on something. But there's a 'soft' limit for that - "I shouldn't spend more than x" and a 'hard' limit - "if I spend more than y I can't afford the rent this month". While spending above y isn't unheard of, it's surely a lot less common than it was pre-Crash, so basing a sales strategy around it seems utterly mad. I find that a lot of GW products are pushing my hard limit; there's almost nothing within my soft limit at all (discounting paints, etc.)

You and I are in agreement Athelassan.

Wayshuba
21-03-2014, 19:56
Well, that's unsurprising. Unfortunately it's not grounded in the real world, or at least not the real world now. On the one hand, as a message to inculcate in your staff, selling the customer what they want rather than what they need isn't a bad mantra (after all, nobody really needs anything GW sell), even if it has a tendency to come across as a little aggressive and pushy. But there's simply a financial line beyond which people won't be pushed. I'm as susceptible to "crap I don't need" as anyone, and often I'll exceed what I'd planned to spend on something. But there's a 'soft' limit for that - "I shouldn't spend more than x" and a 'hard' limit - "if I spend more than y I can't afford the rent this month". While spending above y isn't unheard of, it's surely a lot less common than it was pre-Crash, so basing a sales strategy around it seems utterly mad. I find that a lot of GW products are pushing my hard limit; there's almost nothing within my soft limit at all (discounting paints, etc.)

and thus see my post of the pricing laws, particularly law 4 on pg. 778 of the pricing thread. Once this threshold is exceeded (the 'hard' point) it goes downhill very, very fast from here.

MusingWarboss
21-03-2014, 20:14
So, what have we learnt so far...

GW... how to make it better? = We need to change:
1: The management.
2: The rules to miniature ratio and how it corresponds to price.
3: Their retail structure.
4: Marketing and PR.
5: Quality control.
6: Online presence.
7: Their range of products needs an overhaul/expanding outside of the two Core Games.
8: A better entry point for beginners/current customers wanting to expand their collections or move between systems.

Phew. Anyone think it might just be easier to scrap it and start again? Perhaps that's Their intention?

Athelassan
23-03-2014, 00:59
Begin playing Warmachine and Hordes.
But what if I don't want to?

I've spent over twenty years with GW; I own thousands of pounds worth of GW products. Telling me to just begin playing another game altogether feels a bit like telling me that now that my wife of many years is seriously, possibly terminally ill I should just start seeing other women until she gets better (assuming she does). Admittedly, my wife has come to take me for granted, and since she's been ill she's become expensive and borderline abusive, but I've got a lot invested in this relationship. Not to mention that starting a new one will take time and money itself; all those first dates, relearning all the "rules", etc. And I'm not particularly unusual.

People have an emotional attachment to their hobbies. And I don't think that should be considered surprising, weird or unhealthy.

To be honest, these days I'm basically just a collector/painter anyway, so discussion over the rules problems is largely irrelevant to me (although I don't particularly like aspects of the current ruleset, and think the rules are too expensive). If GW went under it wouldn't be the end of the world as far as I'm concerned, but it would still make me very sad, not least because there'd be nobody producing the same lines of figures I'm collecting any more.

Grocklock
23-03-2014, 04:57
Begin playing Warmachine and Hordes. In time GW will improve or die out.

..and you get to spend the time until that happens playing a highly tactical, very well balanced and accessible game. Playable at everything from tiny skirmishes to huge battles. One small purchase (a solo or warcaster for example, a single model) can change your entire army - how it plays, your tactical options, and so on. You can choose between two basic and very different core mechanics (focus vs. fury) depending on your choice of faction. On the design side of things you have everything from the sci-fi'ish Convergence of Cyriss, the steam punk factions, and the fantasy'ish factions of Hordes. The design is very original and keeps being fresh with small, but significant developments of the rules of game. Finally you do not have to wait five years for new stuff for your favorite army. Every faction get something new (so far between 2 and 7 things) every year.

Now stop this and go have fun instead.

Who's lists are very rock paper sissors
A lot of fixed posses models
Lack of army creation no personalising your guy nope he comes as he is
Background is bland especially if you come from GW
But got to say it is cheeper, but so is travel lodge compared to the Rits.

A travel lodge is ok, if does the job. But there is no flair to keep you there. It's good for one or too nights but you know if you stayed for longer you would rather go somewhere else. Anywhere else

Autumn Leaves
23-03-2014, 08:25
The game won't be fixed until long incumbent management are removed.

shelfunit.
23-03-2014, 09:44
A lot of fixed posses models

Something that GW is working very hard to catch up with. Almost all of the newer release plastics are completely monopose, which is fine for beginners to be building, but looks a little samey on the battle field, even worse when ranked up. Less problematic on a smaller scale skirmish game where individual pose similarities can be mitigated by slightly different looking clothing/armour variations.

Sotek
23-03-2014, 16:01
If no one buys the rules (since by their admission they are a miniatures company not a 'workshop for games') they might wake up?

Coldhatred
23-03-2014, 16:30
If no one buys the rules (since by their admission they are a miniatures company not a 'workshop for games') they might wake up?

Then they'll just cancel the rules products and find ever more ingenious (nerfarious?) ways to make revenue.

Jack Spratt
23-03-2014, 16:53
But what if I don't want to?
Then don't.



I've spent over twenty years with GW; I own thousands of pounds worth of GW products. Telling me to just begin playing another game altogether feels a bit like telling me that now that my wife of many years is seriously, possibly terminally ill I should just start seeing other women until she gets better (assuming she does). Admittedly, my wife has come to take me for granted, and since she's been ill she's become expensive and borderline abusive, but I've got a lot invested in this relationship. Not to mention that starting a new one will take time and money itself; all those first dates, relearning all the "rules", etc.
Is this comparison even legal? :p


And I'm not particularly unusual.

How do you know that :D



To be honest, these days I'm basically just a collector/painter anyway, so discussion over the rules problems is largely irrelevant to me (although I don't particularly like aspects of the current ruleset, and think the rules are too expensive). If GW went under it wouldn't be the end of the world as far as I'm concerned, but it would still make me very sad, not least because there'd be nobody producing the same lines of figures I'm collecting any more.
Sooo, you don't want me to tell you to play another game you don't play anymore anyway?

I mean come on. I want WFB and 40K to work and be great games at affordable prices, as much as the next guy. But imo if things doesn't work and keep not working for a looooong time, then move on. To answer the op: We cannot make the games and the company better - only GW can do that. I have been playing GW games for about 25 years and I used to think that GWs games were the only games worth playing. Maybe it was like that once, but no more. Now i play Warmachine/Hordes and Infinity and for me this a great solution. I does not have to be a good solution for you, but it's very tempting to say "put up or shut up" or "deal with it or use one of the many alternatives that exists these days".

Hicks
23-03-2014, 17:37
The way I try to make things better is by not giving them a penny and buying from the competition. If GW wants my money back, they have to work for it, by becoming a better WARGAME company. If they don't, then you get to play games that you feel are more fun and better deals.

I'm not going to try to convince people to try out X or Y game, taste is personal, but I don't get the attitude that some people have that if you try non-GW games you will be burned.

Jack Spratt
23-03-2014, 18:11
Who's lists are very rock paper sissors
A lot of fixed posses models
Lack of army creation no personalising your guy nope he comes as he is
Background is bland especially if you come from GW
But got to say it is cheeper, but so is travel lodge compared to the Rits.

A travel lodge is ok, if does the job. But there is no flair to keep you there. It's good for one or too nights but you know if you stayed for longer you would rather go somewhere else. Anywhere else

You and I are both entitled to our opinions. No problem there. I will point out that it is a general complaint that GWs rules are getting worse with each edition, just take a look around this site, oh this thread ;). In contrast it is the general consensus among Warmachine/Hordes players, that the game has some of the most balanced rules ever made. The fact that GW is selling less and less models and cutting back on the number of games it supports, is also in stark contrast to PP, that continues to grow and expand. Do not even get me started on the background. GW has repeated the same background stories for 25 years, with every single edition they repeat a palette of stories told before and add just a few bits. Even the artwork is often the same. PP background has not been repeated once, not ONCE. The bulk of GWs background is still larger, yes, but they have been around for a lot longer than PP. When I look at the 25+ books I own from PP all together around 4000 pages of rules, stories and background i find it a little biased calling PPs backgrund bland.

And you really shouldn't compare GW to a travel lodge. You might hurt the feelings of some of the GW fanboys.

Athelassan
23-03-2014, 19:56
Is this comparison even legal? :p
I'll let you know if my possibly-fictional possibly-dying borderline-abusive spendthrift wife ever reads this thread and sues me. :rolleyes:


How do you know that :D
Because the internet's full of us!


I'm not going to try to convince people to try out X or Y game, taste is personal, but I don't get the attitude that some people have that if you try non-GW games you will be burned.
I'm prepared to give other games a go, but a lot of the reason I like(d) GW so much was the aesthetic and feel of the world, and I've yet to see many games that really grab me. A couple of skirmish-level games have caught my eye, but nothing where I feel the bulk of my collection would actually be compatible. And that's really the thing - collecting miniatures is expensive, even in relatively small numbers, and the prospect of my starting a collection with a new company from scratch would terrify my bank manager. What I really want to be able to do is expand and develop the collection I already have, and maybe every once in a while wheel it out onto the battlefield if I can be bothered, not start a whole new one. There really aren't many competitors out there that give me the opportunity to do that. And, yes, there are companies producing similar (and in many cases rather better) figures to the GW aesthetic - which I do buy, in preference to GW ones at the moment - but I'm also aware that my collection is still fundamentally a GW-centric one and I'd like to be able to buy extensively from them again without feeling like a chump.

Jack Spratt
23-03-2014, 22:25
I'm prepared to give other games a go, but a lot of the reason I like(d) GW so much was the aesthetic and feel of the world, and I've yet to see many games that really grab me. A couple of skirmish-level games have caught my eye, but nothing where I feel the bulk of my collection would actually be compatible. And that's really the thing - collecting miniatures is expensive, even in relatively small numbers, and the prospect of my starting a collection with a new company from scratch would terrify my bank manager. What I really want to be able to do is expand and develop the collection I already have, and maybe every once in a while wheel it out onto the battlefield if I can be bothered, not start a whole new one. There really aren't many competitors out there that give me the opportunity to do that. And, yes, there are companies producing similar (and in many cases rather better) figures to the GW aesthetic - which I do buy, in preference to GW ones at the moment - but I'm also aware that my collection is still fundamentally a GW-centric one and I'd like to be able to buy extensively from them again without feeling like a chump.

Peace. I get it and it makes sense. I'm just different from you. I used to have a HUGE collection of GW stuff. I sold it. Just one army at a time. I spend that money on Privateer Press' stuff. And for me that was a fantastic decision. I just can't help wanting others to try the same. Once you are on the other side of that bridge you GW-folk can start to look a little strange. I mean consider this:

A: I have always bought cars from Citroen. They used to make good cars, but no more. In fact they suck now and I feel that Citroen are treating me poorly as a customer. Almost everybody agrees with me and this has been going on for many years now. Its getting worse by the year dammit!
B: Why not try a Volvo? No more of this French crap.
A: A Volvo. *********** VOLVO! Hell no, I have eighteen Citroen cars parked in my (huge) garage, and I'll be damned if I'm ever going to driver anything other than Citroen.
B: [Gets into Volvo and drives away into the sunset]

You GW fanboys, flagellants the lot of you :p

Athelassan
23-03-2014, 23:50
A: I have always bought cars from Citroen. They used to make good cars, but no more. In fact they suck now and I feel that Citroen are treating me poorly as a customer. Almost everybody agrees with me and this has been going on for many years now. Its getting worse by the year dammit!
B: Why not try a Volvo? No more of this French crap.
A: A Volvo. *********** VOLVO! Hell no, I have eighteen Citroen cars parked in my (huge) garage, and I'll be damned if I'm ever going to driver anything other than Citroen.
B: [Gets into Volvo and drives away into the sunset]

You GW fanboys, flagellants the lot of you :p
Well, the difference there of course is that every time you get a new car you replace the old one. So it doesn't actually matter what the old car was in relation to the new one; it's completely superseded and there's no cumulative effect.

It's more like you've spent your whole life playing cricket, but then there's a rules change you don't like, and someone says "well, just play baseball instead". I can't speak for everyone, but certainly from my perspective and I suspect for many others, we'd rather fix the thing we already know and love than move on to something else that we didn't like as much to begin with.

Poncho160
24-03-2014, 00:47
There are two ways to make it better:

1. Buy GW and change it yourself

Assuming that is beyond most of us,

2. Stop buying from GW. That is the only way we can have a say in the direction of the company. I haven't bought anything from them in over a year now and get all my stuff (models, paints ect) from other sources.

shelfunit.
24-03-2014, 07:42
Well, the difference there of course is that every time you get a new car you replace the old one. So it doesn't actually matter what the old car was in relation to the new one; it's completely superseded and there's no cumulative effect.

Similar to having 6th, 7th, 8th edition rules/armybooks stuffed away on the shelf?


It's more like you've spent your whole life playing cricket, but then there's a rules change you don't like, and someone says "well, just play baseball instead". I can't speak for everyone, but certainly from my perspective and I suspect for many others, we'd rather fix the thing we already know and love than move on to something else that we didn't like as much to begin with.

In the sense that baseball is a different game, yes, but for baseball you need to buy all new equipment leaving all your pads/bats/whites unused in a box in the garage, for switching games with miniatures it is often as simple as changing books - for many, many games around all your models will still be valid.

Jack Spratt
24-03-2014, 13:22
we'd rather fix the thing we already know and love than move on

If you read my initial post, you will see that I did propose a fix. Playing Warmachine and Horde is just to pass the time... until things get better with GW. I prefer PP myself, but you could do it like that.
Fact is, you cannot fix the current state of things with GW. Its impossible.

Also, your posts makes me wonder... you never replace old models with new ones? A new devastator so you can shelf the old one, a new Phoenix Guard so the old ones can go live in the attic. I mean, if you do (and I think most people does) then your whole "thing makes no sense to me.

Other than that ... just love it or leave it man. Life is too short to use your spare time and your hard earned money, on a game that you don't much like any more and company that you feel doesn't give a crap to begin with.

shelfunit.
24-03-2014, 13:36
Also, your posts makes me wonder... you never replace old models with new ones? A new devastator so you can shelf the old one, a new Phoenix Guard so the old ones can go live in the attic. I mean, if you do (and I think most people does) then your whole "thing makes no sense to me.

Why would you "need" to buy new versions of old models? In some cases I can see the potential - if the older model was insufferably hideous, but otherwise, "If it 'ain't broke, don't fix it" works well. Now, if GW are (and it seems pretty clear this is exactly where they have been going for a long, long time now) banking on the "everyone replaces their armies with new versions of old models as soon as they appear" method of doing business, then to get back to the topic, they might need to rethink and focus a bit more on the recruiting of new players with the new models, and less on taking the vets for granted.

Athelassan
24-03-2014, 17:42
Also, your posts makes me wonder... you never replace old models with new ones? A new devastator so you can shelf the old one, a new Phoenix Guard so the old ones can go live in the attic. I mean, if you do (and I think most people does) then your whole "thing makes no sense to me.

Nope. I might buy the newer figures as well, if I like them, but I don't see any reason to "retire" older figures unless I can't bear to look at them any more. In many cases - especially when it comes to WHF Empire, my largest collection - I much prefer most of the older figures to the current range anyway.

IcedCrow
24-03-2014, 18:07
You GW fanboys, flagellants the lot of you

See I played warmachine for three whole years and this is what I walked away from that experience with:

1) the models are for the most part awful to me
2) the narrative / fluff is for the most part awful to me
3) the page V thing being tossed around got old
4) i don't really like skirmish / low model count games, I prefer armies
5) i don't really like games that center around A) a super hero and B) combo-chaining (I started warhammer fantasy in 5th edition and HATED it because it centered around a super hero character and his entourage)

Based off of all that, I concluded that warmachine and privateer press did nothing for me. Continuing to play PP games, just because, would have been more flagellating to me because I had no fun playing their games. NOt because they were bad games, but because they overall do nothing for me.

So why do I play GW games?
1) i like the aesthetic
2) i like army games that are more than a handful of models
3) i like the narrative

The rules are about halfway there to me. However, the pointers that I *need* to enjoy a game like this are primarily appeased by GW, whereas PP actually achieves no pointers by me because every one of my needs to enjoy a game are largely not touched by PP. As such, I go with what fulfills most of what I enjoy.

If ever a company releases a full army-scale game with good rules, great aesthetics, great narrative, and does not involve super heroes and combo chaining like magic: the gathering - I will be all about it.

Jack Spratt
24-03-2014, 22:23
Nope. I might buy the newer figures as well, if I like them, but I don't see any reason to "retire" older figures unless I can't bear to look at them any more. In many cases - especially when it comes to WHF Empire, my largest collection - I much prefer most of the older figures to the current range anyway.

This makes sense then :)

Jack Spratt
24-03-2014, 22:27
See I played warmachine for three whole years and this is what I walked away from that experience with:

1) the models are for the most part awful to me
2) the narrative / fluff is for the most part awful to me
3) the page V thing being tossed around got old
4) i don't really like skirmish / low model count games, I prefer armies
5) i don't really like games that center around A) a super hero and B) combo-chaining (I started warhammer fantasy in 5th edition and HATED it because it centered around a super hero character and his entourage)

Based off of all that, I concluded that warmachine and privateer press did nothing for me. Continuing to play PP games, just because, would have been more flagellating to me because I had no fun playing their games. NOt because they were bad games, but because they overall do nothing for me.

So why do I play GW games?
1) i like the aesthetic
2) i like army games that are more than a handful of models
3) i like the narrative

The rules are about halfway there to me. However, the pointers that I *need* to enjoy a game like this are primarily appeased by GW, whereas PP actually achieves no pointers by me because every one of my needs to enjoy a game are largely not touched by PP. As such, I go with what fulfills most of what I enjoy.

If ever a company releases a full army-scale game with good rules, great aesthetics, great narrative, and does not involve super heroes and combo chaining like magic: the gathering - I will be all about it.

My flagellant comment was just for laughs. Do not play Warmachine or Hordes then. In you situation - why would you?
I'm not a recruiting officer for PP or something. I'm just pointing out that there are alternatives if you like table top games and are unhappy with GW and/or their products.

Coldhatred
24-03-2014, 23:20
See I played warmachine for three whole years and this is what I walked away from that experience with:

1) the models are for the most part awful to me
2) the narrative / fluff is for the most part awful to me
3) the page V thing being tossed around got old
4) i don't really like skirmish / low model count games, I prefer armies
5) i don't really like games that center around A) a super hero and B) combo-chaining (I started warhammer fantasy in 5th edition and HATED it because it centered around a super hero character and his entourage)

Based off of all that, I concluded that warmachine and privateer press did nothing for me. Continuing to play PP games, just because, would have been more flagellating to me because I had no fun playing their games. NOt because they were bad games, but because they overall do nothing for me.

So why do I play GW games?
1) i like the aesthetic
2) i like army games that are more than a handful of models
3) i like the narrative

The rules are about halfway there to me. However, the pointers that I *need* to enjoy a game like this are primarily appeased by GW, whereas PP actually achieves no pointers by me because every one of my needs to enjoy a game are largely not touched by PP. As such, I go with what fulfills most of what I enjoy.

If ever a company releases a full army-scale game with good rules, great aesthetics, great narrative, and does not involve super heroes and combo chaining like magic: the gathering - I will be all about it.

Very much my experience as well. I've been forced to play skirmish games however due to their not being much else. (KoW is too simplistic.) Historicals have been a good change of pace though for mass battles.

lanrak
01-04-2014, 11:47
May I suggest that players who are just fed up with GW plc version of the rules.
Have a look at generic free to download rules available on the internet?

And have a go at converting them to get rules and game play they are happy with?

I mean GW plc SELL you ideas on how to arrange a game(crap ton of cool ideas poorly implemented/ rule book ) , and suggest some army composition outlines (sales pamphlets/codex,) , you have to finish /fix yourself.

Well why not give the free alternatives a go?Make rules up ,play games , tell stories and have fun!

You do not NEED GW plc.GW plc NEED you!

GW plc seem to have forgotten this.

Trasvi
01-04-2014, 12:15
May I suggest that players who are just fed up with GW plc version of the rules.
Have a look at generic free to download rules available on the internet?

And have a go at converting them to get rules and game play they are happy with?

I mean GW plc SELL you ideas on how to arrange a game(crap ton of cool ideas poorly implemented/ rule book ) , and suggest some army composition outlines (sales pamphlets/codex,) , you have to finish /fix yourself.

Well why not give the free alternatives a go?Make rules up ,play games , tell stories and have fun!

You do not NEED GW plc.GW plc NEED you!

GW plc seem to have forgotten this.

One of the best things about 40k is its ubiquity: you can show up at any gaming club and get a game. Once you start moving away from the core rules, it gets increasingly difficult to find games. Even getting a regular group to accept house rules or improvements to 40k is hard enough ...

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ObiWayneKenobi
01-04-2014, 13:00
May I suggest that players who are just fed up with GW plc version of the rules.
Have a look at generic free to download rules available on the internet?

And have a go at converting them to get rules and game play they are happy with?

I mean GW plc SELL you ideas on how to arrange a game(crap ton of cool ideas poorly implemented/ rule book ) , and suggest some army composition outlines (sales pamphlets/codex,) , you have to finish /fix yourself.

Well why not give the free alternatives a go?Make rules up ,play games , tell stories and have fun!

You do not NEED GW plc.GW plc NEED you!

GW plc seem to have forgotten this.

This is true to a point, but if you are playing 40k with some other rules system it kinda limits your options to your regular opponent or group, as it's a lot harder to have a random game with somebody if you need to throw in deciding what rules to use.

Actually I think part of their issues is that in the same breath they claim the game can be played anywhere against anyone, but you need to hash out all this stuff beforehand to decide what type of game you want and how competitive you want it to be and what's going to be allowed.

azza88
03-04-2014, 01:28
if you don't like how the game plays how about playing a different game and stop complaining about 40k on the internet?

Gorsameth
03-04-2014, 01:46
The people here are invented in 40k. They like parts of it, be it miniatures or background and I would guess most have spends thousands of dollars on it. Yes that gives us a right to complain on the internet when we believe GW is heading into a bad direction.
No one is forcing you to read this topic if it bothers you that much.

ps.
And yes people are moving on to different games. a 30% market loss from GW shows that.

shelfunit.
03-04-2014, 07:54
if you don't like how the game plays how about playing a different game and stop complaining about 40k on the internet?

1) People might like the background and so be disappointed by how the game plays.
2) They may have like previous iterations of the game and would like the newer versions to play as well.
3) The internet is a "free country" and people can have different opinions to yours and are allowed to express them.

For starters...

lanrak
03-04-2014, 14:00
@Travsi.
40k was the most popular game for ages.
However, recently there is so much more to negotiate before you get to play a game , it is fracturing the player base, to make it like there are several distinct games that 40k players have to choose from.

Its fine for regular groups, but then regular groups can mutually agree to use any rule set /or adaptation of a rule set.
For pick up and play games 40k is no longer that suitable, comparatively.

Grimtuff
03-04-2014, 14:58
if you don't like how the game plays how about playing a different game and stop complaining about 40k on the internet?

Ah, I see your favourite food is red herring.

Good for you.

BFalcon
03-04-2014, 18:47
To me, they need to relaunch the Specialist Games and bring them more in-house again - with both epic and skirmish level games.

Perhaps rewrite the epic 40k rules so that they use the same degree of damage per stand as a WH40k mini does on their level, so making rules easier to keep balanced and use Apocalypse formations there too - and then do the same for the fantasy versions - with 3d printing, they could easily design identifiable minis for epic now without needing any kind of special sculpting like they used to - just removing some of the fine detail and a rescale would probably do it.

Blood Bowl - bring it back with all new sculpts - teams are currently holding their price, despite being OOP now - reduce the prices to around 30 for the teams and you'd undercut many of the sellers out there.

Skirmish level games - base it around a series of settings and bring out a whole load of "non-WFB" minis like wagons and market stalls - doesn't need to be much, but enough to lend a bit of flavour to the settings, but still useful in certain circumstances and for decoration in some custom scenery and scenarios.

They need more IPs, they need them over a broader appeal range, they need to drop their prices per unit back to BELOW the industry standard (if only by 1%, they need to squeeze the competition) and they need to stop throwing lawyers at everyone - having a separate marketing director would allow them to handle such situations in a much less abrasive way - they now have a terrible reputation among other games companies (and fans) because of their willingness to throw a lawyer at a problem as their first step, instead of a simple email from an exec saying something "please make sure that your webpages have the following disclaimer or we may need to take action, which we obviously would prefer to avoid." Even if they would prefer to throw the lawyers in, it keeps the recipient friendlier than "lawsuit incoming" mails. It would have helped them stamp on those using their images to compete with them too.

Bring back the Trolls!!! One of the best reasons for buying from GW directly was the free stuff they'd throw in - they must have TONS of old codices they could be chucking in orders, especially those who they know will be replaced next month - rather than burning them, give them to the fans! Everyone likes free stuff and, if not, that's what ebay is for... but giving someone a free (let's say) Skaven army book with a 40k order might encourage them to look into getting some or might be given away to someone who was thinking of actually getting those minis. I got a FASA Star Trek ship recognition manual with one order - leading me to track down the boxed set on ebay (it was already OOP) and that wasn't even their own product!

Also, perhaps breaking with their ancient hatred of roleplaying games, despite their origins (I still have the Judge Dredd RPG on my shelf with the GW logo on it), perhaps they should be embracing some Direct-Only RPGs with decent IPs attached? Perhaps they could test the waters a bit by "not quite going there" and releasing a new version of Talisman with the GW logo and basing it around Warhammer instead of the more generic setting it used to have... they like producing minis, there's a classic opportunity to release a bunch of REALLY nice sculpts in high detail, without committing themselves (like the Space Hulk limited run - that was genius... a shame they reversed their fortunes with the later Dread Fleet fiasco - they should have kept the ships generic there so that 3 sets could buy you a fleet of each race that you could use and not make each one unique - would have sold a LOT more of them and (possibly) launched a brand new product line).

Autumn Leaves
04-04-2014, 06:36
Interesting idea, but it will never happen while Kirby is at the helm.

Grocklock
04-04-2014, 12:39
It is a good idea, and maybe they will do this in the future. I think it's interesting what they are doing with the IP on a electonic game format. They seam to be producing good content out there, I know that storm of vengance was just plants vs zombies but I liked it. GW could do with expanding its skirmish level games thus is true.

Question though do they still own the IP for there specialist games. And how long can they hold on it them before other people can step in.

Gorsameth
04-04-2014, 13:10
To me, they need to relaunch the Specialist Games and bring them more in-house again - with both epic and skirmish level games.

<Snip long text>

Bringing back all the old stuff is nice but does not adress GW's core problem. The rules/prices of the core products are bad.
Epic/Bloodbowl/necromunda ect were scrapped because they didnt bring in the big bucks and adding them back wont suddenly see GW racking in the money. If they want to turn the way down around they need to fix there core products.
Once that is done they can diversify and do all the things you suggested but its not going to make up for the drop they are seeing.

Herzlos
04-04-2014, 14:26
I'd say the core problem is that the cost of entry is too high and there's no longer a low cost gateway; so introducing specialist games would fix that to an extent and provide the gateway again, whilst preventing all of their competition from taking over the gateway customers (Dreadball wouldn't have taken off so well if Blood Bowl was still supported, for instance). These games are responsible for bringing in a generation of gamers, and customer recruitment is the key issue for them at the moment; there's nothing like a high enough uptake.

BFalcon
04-04-2014, 14:32
Bringing back all the old stuff is nice but does not adress GW's core problem. The rules/prices of the core products are bad.
Epic/Bloodbowl/necromunda ect were scrapped because they didnt bring in the big bucks and adding them back wont suddenly see GW racking in the money. If they want to turn the way down around they need to fix there core products.
Once that is done they can diversify and do all the things you suggested but its not going to make up for the drop they are seeing.

The thing is, the Specialist games were abandoned for around 20 years before they finally removed them completely - Blood Bowl was still using sculpts made in the 90s with some minis never actually done (eg goblin non-star bombardier). If you abandon a line like that, of course you'll see a tail off in interest. On the other hand, push them, advertise new stuff all the time and you'll keep interest in it.

Athelassan
04-04-2014, 16:26
I think as far as specialist games go the genie is out of the bottle for now. GW allowed their competitors into that market - one where they could compete on something like parity - and now that's happened I don't think GW are ever going to recover all their market share. But they could still try to recapture some of that market, rather than write it off as lost, and it would probably regain them a degree of goodwill among people who've otherwise abandoned GW because the core systems aren't relevant to their interests any more.

Herzlos
04-04-2014, 16:45
Or even in current cash grab state they could make a pretty quick profit with a re-boxed release of most of the specialist games, with design work than these supplement books (they have the moulds and designs already). A 10,000 box Space Hulk run at 70 RRP would net them at least 350,000 profit, easy.

I'm using Space Hulk as an example because it doesn't have a direct comparison yet. The same could easily apply for Blood Bowl or Warhammer Quest.

Gorsameth
04-04-2014, 17:58
I think as far as specialist games go the genie is out of the bottle for now. GW allowed their competitors into that market - one where they could compete on something like parity - and now that's happened I don't think GW are ever going to recover all their market share. But they could still try to recapture some of that market, rather than write it off as lost, and it would probably regain them a degree of goodwill among people who've otherwise abandoned GW because the core systems aren't relevant to their interests any more.

Good Will only gos so far. Good will doesnt make people splash 500 dollars on an army, it helps to retain people a little but it doesnt bring back the onces who left over to high prices/bad rules like fixing those 2 issues would.

ashc
04-04-2014, 19:11
Good Will only gos so far. Good will doesnt make people splash 500 dollars on an army, it helps to retain people a little but it doesnt bring back the onces who left over to high prices/bad rules like fixing those 2 issues would.

The panda speaks the truth.

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MusingWarboss
04-04-2014, 20:14
The thing is, the Specialist games were abandoned for around 20 years before they finally removed them completely - Blood Bowl was still using sculpts made in the 90s with some minis never actually done (eg goblin non-star bombardier). If you abandon a line like that, of course you'll see a tail off in interest. On the other hand, push them, advertise new stuff all the time and you'll keep interest in it.

Twenty years is a bit of an over exaggeration, that would be 1994! Most of them weren't even made then!! Necromunda wasn't out til 95 and most of the others followed it. In fact only BB and some versions of Epic were before that date! They were abandoned about twelve years back in the height of the LotR period where, quite frankly, GW decided it didn't have the time to work on them and stuck to it's two core games and the LotR stuff.


Or even in current cash grab state they could make a pretty quick profit with a re-boxed release of most of the specialist games, with design work than these supplement books (they have the moulds and designs already). A 10,000 box Space Hulk run at 70 RRP would net them at least 350,000 profit, easy.

I'm using Space Hulk as an example because it doesn't have a direct comparison yet. The same could easily apply for Blood Bowl or Warhammer Quest.

Even as one-off, no update games I still think they'd be better off making them a general release and just bringing in cash rather than all this limited edition rubbish. Things like Space Hulk will sell 10,000 copies worldwide easily but the amount of people who'd like to buy it will be far higher! They haven't even taken into account the people who could be brought into their "hobby" by it or those who'd like to buy it just as a game, then there are the people who will harvest the miniatures. All they considered were the ones who will buy it because of nostalgia for an earlier version or because they never got an earlier version. Put it at a sensible price (compared to other board games) and *shock-horror* allow it to be sold in ... Shops! Supermarkets! Anywhere that stocks toys and games!!! Crazy idea!! But yeah. It'd probably sell well to Joe Public who'd then be brought into the whole scene and buy other stuff.

Warhammer Quest likewise. A good, game pitched like Heroquest was back in the day, to the public at large for an appropriate price would do them a world of good. It's not like they don't make plastic miniatures in sprues of 1-5 models these days. They could just make some fantastic new heroes (which would encourage existing fans to buy it) and the hoards of extras for the DM could be based on the snap-fit plastics they make already. Or similar. Easy.

At the moment they're attempting to milk a dying market rather than open up to the larger populous. Open it up and the people will return, new people will come along and things will become better. Market by word of mouth to your own fans, then ostracise them as soon as they've brought a few books and a barrow load of miniatures before pricing them out is NOT the way to go.

Athelassan
04-04-2014, 23:21
Good Will only gos so far. Good will doesnt make people splash 500 dollars on an army, it helps to retain people a little but it doesnt bring back the onces who left over to high prices/bad rules like fixing those 2 issues would.
It might win back more former players than you think. There are a lot of people out there who aren't sworn enemies of GW, they've just been driven away by high pricing and lack of interest/attention in the areas that they're interested in. What's more, those people will tend to be older, and therefore might have more disposable income than the tween market.

In any case, even if goodwill only goes so far, good will surely has to be an improvement on active hatred.

***

On a different subject, and touching on a point raised in another thread, the renaming of the Imperial Guard vexes me. Occasionally (both in real life and on the internet) I run into people talking about Pokemon or Yu-Gi-Oh or My Little Pony or whatever. And their conversation sounds like gibberish because of all the specialist terminology, which not only renders the conversation unintelligible but sets off an almost involuntary "nerd klaxon" in my head. And I've come to realise that that's what I sound like when I'm overheard talking about Warhammer. The specialist terminology just acts as a barrier. Even when I go to other manufacturers' webstores, and all the faction names are over-specific I start to disengage slightly.

I can't for the life of me see how "Astra Militarum" is a more attractive name for the Imperial Guard, whether for an existing customer or a newcomer. An existing customer is used to the Imperial Guard name and is probably going to feel somewhere between indifferent and annoyed at the name change. Potential new customers are going to be confused. The only people who'll be over the moon are the sort of frothing fanboys who would have bought everything whatever it was labelled. And besides which, if we're going down that route, why wasn't the Space Marin codex renamed Adeptus Astartes, or the Space Wolves Vlka Fenryka or the Imperial Knights Equestres Imperialis or whatever?

I can just imagine some poor hobbyist trying to explain his army to a vaguely interested friend or girlfriend seeing them paint something or whatever. "These are the Imperial Guard". Seems fair enough. "These are the Astra Mili-NERRRRRD". You've lost them before you've even started. It's the sort of thing I'd instinctively feel GW needs to do less of, not more.

Herzlos
05-04-2014, 08:07
Even as one-off, no update games I still think they'd be better off making them a general release and just bringing in cash rather than all this limited edition rubbish.

Sorry, I didn't mean a limited edition run of 10,000, I just meant an initial run (since they'll get a better deal on the cardstock. The first run would sell out pretty quickly and give them a chance to guage reactions to place a better sized subsequent orders.

shelfunit.
05-04-2014, 08:11
I can't for the life of me see how "Astra Militarum" is a more attractive name for the Imperial Guard, whether for an existing customer or a newcomer. An existing customer is used to the Imperial Guard name and is probably going to feel somewhere between indifferent and annoyed at the name change. Potential new customers are going to be confused. The only people who'll be over the moon are the sort of frothing fanboys who would have bought everything whatever it was labelled. And besides which, if we're going down that route, why wasn't the Space Marin codex renamed Adeptus Astartes, or the Space Wolves Vlka Fenryka or the Imperial Knights Equestres Imperialis or whatever?

I can just imagine some poor hobbyist trying to explain his army to a vaguely interested friend or girlfriend seeing them paint something or whatever. "These are the Imperial Guard". Seems fair enough. "These are the Astra Mili-NERRRRRD". You've lost them before you've even started. It's the sort of thing I'd instinctively feel GW needs to do less of, not more.

It is purely because "Imperial Guard" cannot be trademarked by GW, where as "Astra Militarum" (or whatever rubbish it is now) can be. End of story.

BFalcon
05-04-2014, 11:39
I think as far as specialist games go the genie is out of the bottle for now. GW allowed their competitors into that market - one where they could compete on something like parity - and now that's happened I don't think GW are ever going to recover all their market share. But they could still try to recapture some of that market, rather than write it off as lost, and it would probably regain them a degree of goodwill among people who've otherwise abandoned GW because the core systems aren't relevant to their interests any more.

Agreed - I'm currently collecting Blood Bowl teams because of them going OOP and because I play online a lot (I don't live close to other gamers right now and can't drive for medical reasons, so not actively gaming) and the prices for some miniatures have skyrocketed - to the point where one goblin chainsaw cost me over 12 and a snotling (the one taking a dump in the orc's helmet) cost me 8.50, because I wanted that one sculpt in each case. These were exceptional in both cases and there's no way I'd spend anywhere near that for a figure normally - I just wanted the chainsaw to round out the team in the same style as the rest and the snotling because it comes along once in a blue moon and is one I've wanted for years. But the big advantage of Blood Bowl is you set up the pitch, you each set up 11 players and you get playing... so is far quicker to get started than a lot of more involved games and can be flat-packed into an artists's portfolio carrier, if you need anything.

But you're right - GW really dropped the ball in the BB department (apologies for the 20 years - I was going on the BB sculpts btw - not having accurate dates on hand for Space Hulk and Epic which were the only other Specialist games I've played - although I did pick up a Necromunda box some years back, it's kinda buried) since there's now around a dozen (I think, from memory) different sculpting companies making miniatures, others are making custom boards (if I was in GW's board, I'd have been proposing a buy-out of those guys right away - it's a brilliant idea and one that they could have done for each "canon" team too as a bulk item) and other little items that GW completely overlooked (like metal weights to fit inside the bases (with or without magnets) to help keep the more dynamically-posed minis upright and replacement balls, since they have an annoying habit of going missing once in a while if you're not careful. Capturing those players (who still hold tournaments) with cheap starting gear and the little bits they will need, would help to keep people around a LOT.

And, while they may not actually spend 500 on an army (I agree - a price drop is needed, badly - but they may need to do it in stages), it would get them visiting the GW website. Even having the metal minis and main boxes back on sale would allow new players to easily get started. Right now, a new player is far more likely to come from the computer game before investing, purely because of the cost of buying a team and all the parts is getting higher by the day almost.

Space Hulk, while I didn't like the sculpts from a gaming perspective, I did like from a modelling perspective (which is why I've kept them) and even considered buying more Terminators to replace them in the game itself (I like the Deathwing terminators, personally - but then I did like the "old" ones as per the novel and not the newer "knights" versions, better).

GW certainly needs to get new faces in that door and BB, to me, seems a perfect way to do it at a time when we're seeing new interest in both rugby and american football (with 2 NFL games a season currently being played in the UK) - a grand relaunch, right at the same time as Blood Bowl 2 is launched on the PC, would allow them to pool budgets and see a brand new product line to get customers in through those shop doors... THEN you can sell them the rest...

Oh and on the IG/Astra Militarum thing - one of the reasons I walked away from GW around the year 2000 was because the whole "naming weapons" thing was making me feel too much like I was playing a kiddy game - saying "I'll fire my guy's lascannon at this guy" isn't quite so bad as "I'll fire my megacannon..." when you're in your 20s... the "balloon-winged" landspeeder was another reason - compared to the original, it felt way too cartoony to me and it wasn't the only one. Looking back, I think the WFB paintjobs were partly to blame since they were just too bright - some years later, I saw the newer "norse" dwarfs and snapped them up - before realising that some of those same sculpts were the same as those I'd winced at under different paint jobs - I like my minis to look at least partly realistic. :)

Muad'Dib
05-04-2014, 15:40
I And their conversation sounds like gibberish because of all the specialist terminology, which not only renders the conversation unintelligible but sets off an almost involuntary "nerd klaxon" in my head.
What is a 'nerd' ?

Athelassan
05-04-2014, 16:51
It is purely because "Imperial Guard" cannot be trademarked by GW, where as "Astra Militarum" (or whatever rubbish it is now) can be. End of story.
But in that case why haven't they followed through with other ranges - Space Marines (and we all know they're not trademarked!), anything at all in fantasy, even the Knights that were out ten minutes ago?

shelfunit.
05-04-2014, 17:43
But in that case why haven't they followed through with other ranges - Space Marines (and we all know they're not trademarked!), anything at all in fantasy, even the Knights that were out ten minutes ago?

Space Marines do have a trademark on them, at least in the realms of "toys & games". And fantasy, well we all know how well GWs version of that is doing...

Zenithfleet
06-04-2014, 04:52
On a different subject, and touching on a point raised in another thread, the renaming of the Imperial Guard vexes me. Occasionally (both in real life and on the internet) I run into people talking about Pokemon or Yu-Gi-Oh or My Little Pony or whatever. And their conversation sounds like gibberish because of all the specialist terminology, which not only renders the conversation unintelligible but sets off an almost involuntary "nerd klaxon" in my head. And I've come to realise that that's what I sound like when I'm overheard talking about Warhammer. The specialist terminology just acts as a barrier. Even when I go to other manufacturers' webstores, and all the faction names are over-specific I start to disengage slightly.

I can't for the life of me see how "Astra Militarum" is a more attractive name for the Imperial Guard, whether for an existing customer or a newcomer.

Although I agree that the name change is probably for trademark reasons, I'm with Athelassan on the 'jargon' problem.

GW have usually stuck to simple, straightforward, easily understood names that do what they say on the tin.

Space Marines? They're marines... in space.

Orks? Cute 'futuristic' alternative spelling for those universal bad guys who've been everywhere since Lord of the Rings. (And in the old days they were frequently 'Space Orks').

Eldar? Immediately makes you think 'old and wise', plus maybe 'Tolkien's elves' if you're a fantasy buff.

Chaos? Insanity and weirdness, with a Moorcock bonus for some.

Necrons? Death with robotic/alien flavour (think 'tron'...)

Imperial Guard? They guard the Imperium / Empire.

Sisters of Battle? Nuns with guns. (But now they're officially Adepta Sororitas, aren't they. :shifty:)

And so on. Even 'Tyranids' is fairly self-explanatory: 'tyrannosaur' + a biologically-gribbly suffix, as per the original concept of alien dinosaurs. (To this day it baffles me why everyone pronounces it 'TIRRA-nids' instead of 'Tie-RANNIDS', but never mind.)

'Tau' is the only one that doesn't immediately tell me who or what they are.

Likewise, WFB has Lizardmen, Dark Elves,Undead, Empire...

By contrast, I go look at something like (say) Firestorm Armada and see names like Relthoza and Sorylian and Dindrenzi. Not only do the names give me no idea about them, I had to Google them just now to spell them correctly.

OK, so FA is presumably space opera and maybe these things are expected. (I guess 'Tau' could fit under the same rationale). But the names of factions in Warmachine and other games have the same effect. What do 'Menoth', 'Khador' and 'Cygnar' make you think of? Anything? They just seem to be random fantasy syllables to me.

I know nothing about the Warmachine IP - but that's the whole point. If I didn't know anything about GW's IP, I could look at their faction names and at least get a rough idea of what they were all about. GW have historically been good at saying 'here are all our archetypes - pick the ones you like and jump straight in'.

Other IPs seem to put up a barrier and say 'you're not one of us until you've learned what all these words mean'. That approach may be fine if you're appealing to a niche, but if you're trying for wider appeal (as GW has tended to do), I think the Astra Militarum stuff is a step in the wrong direction.

BFalcon
07-04-2014, 12:53
To be honest, as much as I agree about the "barriers to newbies" thing, in all fairness, the names were, from memory, always there, just never actually used - if you read the original RT rb, they're all there - the Adeptus Sororita, Adeptus Astartes, Astra Militarum...

As for them actually meaning anything, the official names mean a lot, if you think of them in that light - Sororita (think Sorority - the female version of a fraternity), Astra Militarum (Space Military would be a literal translation there I think - or Space Army - remember Astra means "space") and so on. The alien GW races mean nothing to me on their own, except through memorising them, tbh - there's no lizards in Tyrannids for example - but the Necrons (does imply "necromatic" or even just "necro" as in "dead") and the Orks (everyone knows Orcs and they had to differentiate them somehow).

Other games HAVE had better names (i-Kore/Urban Mammoth's VOID game had the Viridians, Syntha, Junkers and VASA - the Viridians were treehuggers (hence the name), Syntha were AIs, Junkers were loosely based around romans-in-space, but were from a race of free slaves, if I recall and VASA were a bit like the USA/Euros, but largely asian, I think - but very much manga themed). My point here is that only SOME games are using blocking names, but sometimes you have to - how can you pigeonhole some of those "races" when some are just plain weird?

Partly, I think the situation's sprung up from two things: 1) some companies have tried to avoid copying GW's names for things, thinking that they're going to get sued if they use anything too similar - perhaps back during an earlier bout of GW Lawyer-eagerness... or 2) They looked at cases like the old 586/Pentium naming rulings and decided to make their own names so that they could keep the competition at bay - after all, if nobody can pigeonhole your products and the names are copyrighted, then making duplicates are hard. Unfortunately for GW, I'm not sure (and I'm no lawyer) that using latin names for things is enough to make them copyrightable - after all, the law profession is pretty au fait with latin, so may not see any difference, legally, between "Astra Militarum" and "Space Army" or any other language, come to that. Certainly I've seen many uses of the term "Astra" in common use, not least the RAF motto - Per Ardua ad Astra - Through Adversity* To The Stars (*Officially this is translated as "Struggle") and I'm sure that any number of other organisations haven't used it (if NASA hasn't, I'll probably die from heart attack). This means that Astra isn't exactly copyrightable on it's own, so someone calling their miniatures "Astra Army" isn't close enough to draw the lawyers, I'd guess, as much as GW would like to.

I think that unique names are a sensible precaution, safeguarding your IPs, provided you're sensible with them - "Syntha" or "Necron" are good. "Astra Militarum" is nearly as shaky as "Imperial Guard", IMO, so might be worth leaving alone... (especially since any ebay search for "Imperial Guard" invariably throws up Napoleonic french miniatures and other items, whereas the Astra Militarum (or even Militarum on its own) won't. That's actually one scary thought - what if they've made that move to make ebay selling harder, since you're now having to use a tradename?

Herzlos
07-04-2014, 14:01
They are also missing the fact that the CHS case declared that it was perfectly valid for stuff to be advertised as "Compatible with <GW trademark>" i.e. "Compatible with Astra Militarum vehicles", so they pretty much failed to achieve anything there at all.

Also as someone who's been into the game since 2nd Ed (missing RT) this is the first time I've heard of my Guard being referred to as Astra Militarum anywhere. I've never encountered it in any of the Caiphas Cain or Gaunts Ghosts Books, or in any of the fluff (which I haven't read over in much detail I have to admit). It also tells me nothing about what they are and I even had to double check the spelling.

If anything this change will open up the search results for common misspellings of the new name (Astra Milatatum, Astra Militarium, etc)

Edit: I expect everything on eBay will be listed as "Astra Milatarum (Imperial Guard)" for the forseeable future.

Athelassan
07-04-2014, 22:48
To be honest, as much as I agree about the "barriers to newbies" thing, in all fairness, the names were, from memory, always there, just never actually used - if you read the original RT rb, they're all there - the Adeptus Sororita, Adeptus Astartes, Astra Militarum...
I know Adeptus Astartes and Adepta Sororita have been around a while. Astra Militarum is a new one on me. Is it in Rogue Trader? It's not in Codex Imperialis, or any of the first four Imperial Guard codices. The only fakus latinum Imperial department regularly mentioned in those (other than the Adeptus Terra and Adeptus Administratum) is the Deptartmento Munitorum which arranges the recruitment and deployment of the Guard. The Guard itself is always referred to in English.

BFalcon
08-04-2014, 12:31
I stand corrected - just broke open my (somewhat tattered, but intact) 40k RT rulebook and the "Guard" is only called the "Imperial Army" there...

The branches, for the curious, were:

Adeptus Terra (The Priesthood - basically everything below)
Adeptus Custodes (the Emperor's Guard)
Adeptus Mechanicus
Adeptus Arbites
Adeptus Astronomica
Adeptus Astra Telepathica (Astropaths)
The Administratum

and then the Adeptus Astartes and the Navigators, of course.

Notes in the very back of the book actually mentions the Adeptus Ministratum and also the Adeptus Sororitas and the Adeptus Ministorum (priesthood) on page 268.

I think I must have gotten confused, unless I missed a reference just now (the book's a little chaotic).

Of course, later, the Imperial Army became the Imperial Guard (pretty much right away) and the Army was used later for pre-Heresy useage.