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Morquentas
19-02-2014, 11:02
Warhammer is not a skirmish game, it's about big battles with the average game somewhere between 2,000 to 3,000 - 2400 seems to be the go-to tournament size.

what would need to happen then in order for the rules to be balanced at, say 1000pts? I'm especially thinking battlebox level, where generally you get a 20 man unit, a 10 man special unit and maybe some skirmishing stuff.

I've seen some suggestions that steadfast is too overpowered for small games
I'd also assume that certain monsters would need to be restricted as well as potentially magic levels.

Any thoughts? Has anyone run tournaments at the 1000pt level or have any comp packs they can point me towards?

Cheers!

Ultimate Life Form
19-02-2014, 11:11
You probably don't want to hear that, but there is no patent remedy for small games, as units and rules start to behave in very strange ways that cannot always be foreseen. For example, seemingly harmless core units may all of a sudden turn out to be grossly overpowered.

To ensure a semblance of balance, everything has to be considered in detail. And yes, that means not only the separate available choices in each book, but also which of these choices are actually on the table and how they relate to the things the opponent has chosen.

In short, each and every small game needs its own unique rules. That, or you could leave it to the common sense of the players. Either way, you're lost.

Darnok
19-02-2014, 11:22
As ULF said, there is no "one solution to rule them all".

That said: 1000 points is not that small, and the WHF rules work quite fine at that level as is. The issues start with games in the 250-500 points range - but there already are combat patrol style rules covering that area. As far as I know they work reasonably well. You just need to accept that WHF - even with adapted rules - is not meant to be played with so few points, especially not with any level of competition. If you fancy that skirmish level gaming, you are better off with different games. There is a wide variety of them available, and you can play them with WHF models just fine most of the time.

Lord Solar Plexus
19-02-2014, 11:52
Any thoughts? Has anyone run tournaments at the 1000pt level or have any comp packs they can point me towards?


Not run but participated, yes. In Germany there's the Little Horus, which is pretty strict about what you can take. Other events simply said no Lords or no #6 spells, and still others play out of the box. We're running a build-up campaign with pure by the book rules currently and I haven't seen any imbalance or huge problem yet. Sure, some sometimes run into mismatches but that happens at all point levels, especially with a lot of fresh blood.

Odin
19-02-2014, 11:56
No idea for tournament play, but we do 1000 points quite often, with only one rule - don't be a ****. Works just fine.

Ultimate Life Form
19-02-2014, 12:08
we do 1000 points quite often, with only one rule - don't be a ****. Works just fine.

For some reason, I can't see that rule working in a tournament. :p

IcedCrow
19-02-2014, 12:17
I've run a lot of 1000 point games. It has its problems just as 2000 point games have their problems. The problems typically stem from the player abusing the system.

Limit unit sizes is something I like to do. In 1000 point games, not letting units breach 200 points or 250 points (20-25% of the game points value), and disallowing lord level characters is where I typically start. Capping spell dice is another option I"ve used (max 4 dice at a spell instead of 6).

Odin
19-02-2014, 13:45
I've run a lot of 1000 point games. It has its problems just as 2000 point games have their problems. The problems typically stem from the player abusing the system.

Limit unit sizes is something I like to do. In 1000 point games, not letting units breach 200 points or 250 points (20-25% of the game points value), and disallowing lord level characters is where I typically start. Capping spell dice is another option I"ve used (max 4 dice at a spell instead of 6).

We houserule no more than 25% on a single unit in all battles. Very good rule.

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IcedCrow
19-02-2014, 13:46
We do the same. It at least prevents one unit from being 75% of the army.

baransiege
19-02-2014, 14:08
Play 1k points all the time and the game works fine as is with typically 4-5 units per side.

Dark Aly
19-02-2014, 15:09
No idea for tournament play, but we do 1000 points quite often, with only one rule - don't be a ****. Works just fine.

That is the only rule needed. I play a lot of 500-1000 point games and they are great, as long as both sides choose a characterful list and play within the spirit of the game. Tournaments? We've done them but everybody's lists were looked at by everybody else before and anything that was decreed as 'a bit much' was toned down but we had to find a consensus but that was easy as there were only 5 of us, the more there are the worse it will be.

I wouldn't ban lord level characters, just make their points cap half as much as usual (so 125 for 1k) so gobbos can still get some ld and fighty characters are in but not tooled up and wizard lords can't join in as they cost more than 125 for all armies IIRC.

iamjack42
19-02-2014, 15:12
No idea for tournament play, but we do 1000 points quite often, with only one rule - don't be a ****. Works just fine.

I've done the same. Had some nice fun tactical games that don't take too long.

Kingly
19-02-2014, 15:17
No idea for tournament play, but we do 1000 points quite often, with only one rule - don't be a ****. Works just fine.

If I didn't think putting quotes in a signature was repetitive/retarded/annoyingly idiotic, I would quote this, bravo sir.

Morquentas
19-02-2014, 16:26
No idea for tournament play, but we do 1000 points quite often, with only one rule - don't be a ****. Works just fine.

Frankly this is probably the best advice, and luckily if what I'm planning does happen it'll be with friends who can probably be trusted not to abuse things. The % unit rule and Lord restriction are all very good shouts though. I wasn't necessarily looking or expecting a perfect solution, more a few pointers towards things that really unbalance the game, so that's really helpful.

Good to know people are still playing the game at around 1000pts - am a self confessed old hobby fart and all these multiple enormous monsters and huge units leaves me cold.

Kingly
19-02-2014, 16:51
If you play Triumph and Tretchery I would even advise using 1000pts per person, I had such a good laugh for the first 'Tale of 9 Gamers' 250 points each game, and all I had was 20 men! Ace game.

Lord Solar Plexus
19-02-2014, 17:17
Here's the Little Horus German comp system for 1,250 point games:

Restrictions:

- 1,250 points
- SC's allowed
- no Lords
- max. 3 heroes
- max. 156 points per hero

- core max. doubles, no double specials & rares
- 250 points per unit
- Max. 2 flyers
- Max. 2 WM
- Max. 1 template
- Max. 2 chariots
- Max. 140 points per rare
- Max. unit size 35
- Max. 25 missile units w/ 24"+, poison or multi shot
- Max. 2 units w/ 2+ AS or better (heroes don't count)

- Max. 3 magic levels, bounds etc. count as one level
- Max. 4 PD per spell
- Max. 1 PD/DD generated per phase
- Max. 10 PD per phase cumulated
- no higher spell level may be cast if it has complexity 14+
- Loremaster selects two spells randomly
- no Crown
- Giants may be fielded

Moopy
20-02-2014, 00:35
I've done a surprising amount of 500 / 750/ 1000 point games for escalation campaigns, intro games, or just a quick and fun game night with beers. It's a super good time. 1000 points isnt so small that you can't just go at it like normal as long as you keep having fun in mind, there's very little point to trying to get competitive at that level.

For anything sub-1000, I've had good experiences with;

Restricted - Can take only one unit
Fliers
War Beasts
Wizards - 1 level for every 250pts in your army list (so max Level 2 in a 500 pt game). If you dont take a wizard and your opponent does, you get an extra d3 dispel dice per turn.

Banned -
War Machines (through restricting these works too, depending on the army)
Models requiring 50x50mm base or larger


Each list (even in 500 pts) needs a minimum of 4 deployments and follow minimum unit sizes etc. We've also allowed Lords and raised the allotment to up to 35% while maintaining the 25% minimum core choices for army lists (like has been mentioned, we found this really helps some of the more low-leadership armies or makes stuff like all goblins fun and viable).

A low points tournament though, maybe im just not competitive enough but i wouldn't see the merit. I think low points is more fun to play with friends and drinks. :)

Voss
20-02-2014, 02:01
I'll echo baransiege and Odin. 1K warhammer is fine. 3K actually has far more issues, because the basic system is still largely a skirmish game.
The game is pretty breakable at all points levels, but 1K actually reigns in some of the insanity, just because of natural point caps.

SpanielBear
20-02-2014, 02:31
Quick caveat to the "max 250 points per unit" rule, Ogre Kingdoms may struggle with it at low points games. Otherwise, yeah, good advice. Small games can be fun!

SuperHappyTime
20-02-2014, 04:51
We've played with the requirement that the Army's Battalion Box must be entirely fielded. For most armies this covers the core requirement and limits the number of remaining points quite nicely.

Von Wibble
20-02-2014, 09:31
Here's the Little Horus German comp system for 1,250 point games:

Restrictions:

- 1,250 points
- SC's allowed
- no Lords
- max. 3 heroes
- max. 156 points per hero



I like the ideas behind this in general, but why 156 points? Is there an OP 157 pointer hero somewhere?

SpanielBear
20-02-2014, 12:53
I like the ideas behind this in general, but why 156 points? Is there an OP 157 pointer hero somewhere?

I'm guessing that's because 156 points is about an 8th of the points limit, meaning you could fit two such heroes in a 1250 point game maximum. Means you can't have one uber hero and a scroll caddy, for instance.