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gorblud
22-02-2014, 20:23
A unit with M8" has free reform.

Can this unit march for example 8", change their facing however they want, and then move another 8". Or do you have to measure how much they move when you turn the unit around?


If this unit changes formation from 3 wide to 5 wide, how do you measure how far a model has already moved?

The unit I have in mind is hexwraiths, if anyone has anything special to say about them (I think they have M7 but an even number is easier to calculate).

Explaining through pictures would be greatly appreciated!

Ossirian
23-02-2014, 05:23
The reform isn't part of their movement, that rule is to prevent a unit of 50 goblins reforming to a 50 man single rank, mening the gobbo on the end would have moved in the region of 14" through a reform. A reform is an independamt move which normall consumes movement, in the case of fast cav you can reform every 1" you move as long as the centre of the unit stays the same and no models are moved more than their movement during each reform.



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Ossirian
23-02-2014, 05:28
In the case of your picture assuming there are no models in the way. Take the centre guy at the start, reform to face the right way (free), move unit as normal, reform unit as you picture at the end however you like.


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Lord Solar Plexus
23-02-2014, 07:23
A unit with M8" has free reform.

Can this unit march for example 8", change their facing however they want, and then move another 8". Or do you have to measure how much they move when you turn the unit around?

I honestly don't know. I always was under the impression that all movement during each reform counted towards their total because that's what it says in the Fast Cavalry section ("no more than double in total"), at least in the German version. This implies that reform movement counts as total movement.

However, it is a veritable PITA to measure each model during multiple reforms and count it all, and I have *never* seen anyone do that, not at the GW, not in the League, not at tournaments, and so I'm not going to argue.



that rule is to prevent a unit of 50 goblins reforming to a 50 man single rank


Which rule?

Ossirian
23-02-2014, 07:27
Model may not move further than its movement during a reform.

Think of it as; free reform, move some, free reform, move some more, rinse repeat.
Reforming uses all of your movement unless: you swift reform using a musician, you are a skirmisher (free reforms), or fast cavalry (free reforms).

Lord Solar Plexus
23-02-2014, 07:30
If models cannot move further than double M, why do you think Fast Cavalry can move more?

Ossirian
23-02-2014, 07:33
If models cannot move further than double M, why do you think Fast Cavalry can move more?

Free reform. Move your cav, 18" straight forward, then reform them. They cannot move more than their M during the reform, what they moved before is irrelevant.
Two different manoeuvres.

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Ossirian
23-02-2014, 07:39
You could...

Reform the unit 90 degrees (nothing moves too far so it's a legal reform, nothing in the way etc)

March 10"of you16" hexwraiths movement.

Reform 45degrees (legal reform bla bla)

Move another 4" (2" left)

Reform into a 3x2 formation 90degrees right (legal reform bla bla)

Move the last 2"

Reform back into a single rank at a nice angle to redirect the unit you are scared of.

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gorblud
23-02-2014, 11:32
thank You :)

Lord Solar Plexus
23-02-2014, 15:47
Free reform. Move your cav, 18" straight forward, then reform them. They cannot move more than their M during the reform, what they moved before is irrelevant.

That's not correct. They cannot move more than *double* their M.

The point is that normal units may only reform once. The *free* likely means that additional reforms are allowed. However, the limitation of no more than double M does make no sense. No Fast Cavalry unit would ever need more than its basic M to reform. I mean who fields units of 20+ where moving a model from one side elsewhere would require more than 16 or 18"?

Also, while they may reform freely during the move, the rule reads that they may only do so as long as no model moves more than double M in total. That's what my book says in the context of their complete move, not during the reform. It does read a bit as if the reform movement has to be deducted from the total.

Blkc57
23-02-2014, 16:34
I feel you ignore any movement present within the reform for the purposes of determining how far you get to move for the simple reason of how the FAQ says to resolve a fast cav's movement and reform. You simply just pick up the unit and place it in within its full movement allowance in any formation you want.


Q: When moving Fast Cavalry or Skirmishers, should I measure from the location of each model before it moves and place it anywhere within its Movement Allowance (or double its Movement Allowance if it is marching) ? (p68, 77) A: Yes. Except when there is a unit or impassable terrain in the way, the distance moved must include the distance required to move around these obstacles.

Ossirian
23-02-2014, 16:37
You are confusing 2 manoeuvres. Move and reform. The limitations on reforming are regarding each reform, same as any other unit.
Basing your arguement on the statement that free doesn't mean no cost and using implication and English nuances as evidence is not sensible.
In short you are wrong, there are rules for reforming and a clear statement that fast cav can reform as many times as it likes. Adding interpretations or what you suspect the author actually meant is misleading.


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Ossirian
23-02-2014, 16:40
I feel you ignore any movement present within the reform for the purposes of determining how far you get to move for the simple reason of how the FAQ says to resolve a fast cav's movement and reform. You simply just pick up the unit and place it in within its full movement allowance in any formation you want.

Correct. Reforms are done around the centre of the unit, measure centre to centre of where you want to go and drop em.


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Lord Solar Plexus
23-02-2014, 17:37
the FAQ

Ah yes, good of you to remind me of that. I knew there was something nagging at the back of my mind. Case closed thanks to blkc!

bigbiggles
24-02-2014, 07:11
I always thought of it as drawing a bubble of your march distance away, and can place the models anywhere in there ( minus a bit if they have to run around a unit or building) and place all models inside the bubble. Quick, easy, reasonable.

Blkc57
24-02-2014, 17:59
I always thought of it as drawing a bubble of your march distance away, and can place the models anywhere in there ( minus a bit if they have to run around a unit or building) and place all models inside the bubble. Quick, easy, reasonable.

The way my group does Fast Cav movement, bigbiggles, is that we tend to use flexible measuring tape when we play the game. We extend out a piece of the measuring tape that is the max movement allowance of the Fast cav unit (lets say in this case 16 inches) and draw the path of the unit with the tape to its end location, we can draw the tape around impassable terrain and if it goes through gaps between units we make sure that the gap is large enough to accommodate the 1 inch rule on either side of a model. Then we pick up and place our fast cav unit at the end of the tape, with whatever formation and facing we choose, and we make sure no model moved farther than the furtherest edge the measuring tape extends.

Lord Solar Plexus
25-02-2014, 10:57
That's how everyone I've met has actually played it as I pointed out above. I still don't think the BRB is watertight here but that consideration is academic in the light of the FAQ.

hamsterwheel
25-02-2014, 12:20
What reasons would you need to reform in the middle of your movement if not to avoid obstacles or other units?

Also what Ossirian is arguing and what the FAQs say are different. According to Ossirian, you could do 15" of movement on a M8 unit, and then do a free reform near the end, thus have a model do more than 16" of movement.

The FAQ says that when you move Fast Cav or a Skirmisher that the model can be moved within 2x it's movement range from picking it up and placing it down, so it's not concerned with the movement in between the initial point and the final point, unless it has to avoid an obstacle or other unit.

Edit: Ok, I thought about it, this essentially allows Fast Cav and Skirmishers to avoid paying the penalty for having to turn during their movement as they can reform instead of having to wheel.