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View Full Version : Using one army's models to form another (specifically TK as VC)



PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
25-02-2014, 01:22
NOTE ON POLL: Answer YES if you would ENJOY playing this army, or NO if you would REFUSE or DISLIKE playing it.


Having played my Tomb Kings army for a year and a bit now, I'm starting to feel the itch to play some games with a different book. However I'm turned-off by the cost of starting a new army from scratch, and quite enjoy the idea of using my existing models to form the core of a Vampire Counts army.

When I broached this topic to members of my group, though, a number of them said that they'd be somewhat offended by the thought of playing against such an army. Opinions ranged between "it would create confusion" to "if an army exists, you should be using their models," to "it would seem a gamey ploy to access the 'more powerful' army book."

The question I pose is...would this bother you? Assume that you're encountering it in a pickup or tournament environment. Would it change your mind if the army was themed, or particularly well done?


edit: oops, screwed up the poll options. My bad. See note above.

tezdal
25-02-2014, 01:26
As long as its WYSIWYG I'd be fine, as in Skeletons are skeletons, and horse skellies are Black Knights etc.. I remember quite a few people used VC skellies and Wights to run Barrow Kings armies back in the day.

Fizzy
25-02-2014, 01:27
As long as it is WYSIWYG. It could be cool. Love Tomb Kings myself but the book kinda sucks.

Lord Cedric
25-02-2014, 01:29
If you are playing in a friendly club and as long as each unit is identified and understood as "X" VC unit, then I wouldn't have a problem with it. Tournaments I would probably bark at though. The nice thing about VC though is that there are numerous ways to incorporate just about all the other armies into it. Perhaps if your group really objects, consider having special (read: different themed) movement trays that have the VC feel? Also maybe even converting just the command and especially the banners to coincide with VC? The TK skeletons are actually better looking (IMO) than the VC ones and many VC generals use/convert the TK models as such.

- Lord Cedric

EvanM
25-02-2014, 01:32
yeah just dont stretch your luck, I mean you dont want to pretend night goblins are high elves.... but having a backstory (lore friendly) would go a very long way. People use other army's models all the time. So use your skeletons in a VC army then just add in some VC units too and sure! but you have to match color scheme.

AND paint your whole army. It doesnt take that long and i care more about that than army cohesion

tezdal
25-02-2014, 01:39
If you are playing in a friendly club and as long as each unit is identified and understood as "X" VC unit, then I wouldn't have a problem with it. Tournaments I would probably bark at though. The nice thing about VC though is that there are numerous ways to incorporate just about all the other armies into it. Perhaps if your group really objects, consider having special (read: different themed) movement trays that have the VC feel? Also maybe even converting just the command and especially the banners to coincide with VC? The TK skeletons are actually better looking (IMO) than the VC ones and many VC generals use/convert the TK models as such.
- Lord Cedric

Eh, I don't know about better looking.. but the TK skellies are WAYYY cheaper.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
25-02-2014, 03:53
On the specifics, I'm currently considering the following list:

Vampire, either on foot or riding a Coven Throne (in keeping with the Lahmia theme)

Core: skeleton bus, supported by zombies and ghouls (mummies). Dogs for chaff, though not sure how they'll be converted. Might just use some extra skeleton horses with some sort of head swap.

Special: GW grave guard (halberd tomb guard), and vargheists (carrion? that might be a bit too confusing)

Rare: terrorgheists (probably a conversion based on the necrosphinx, using Lord of Change wings and a custom-sculpted female head/torso)


Edit: I actually like VC skeletons substantially more than TK ones. However, the Wargames Factory skeletons are both better and cheaper, so I'll be sticking with those (I already have 90). $20 for 30 is a steal, considering that VC ones are $30 for 10.

Lord Dan
25-02-2014, 04:09
It's hard to select a yes/no answer to a question which reads: "Would you enjoy/refuse to play..." :p

That said, here's my Doomwheel:

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb113/SirLordDan/271_zps77fa9fb2.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/SirLordDan/media/271_zps77fa9fb2.jpg.html)

I trust this sums up my opinion on the matter. :D

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
25-02-2014, 05:02
It's hard to select a yes/no answer to a question which reads: "Would you enjoy/refuse to play..." :p

That said, here's my Doomwheel:

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb113/SirLordDan/271_zps77fa9fb2.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/SirLordDan/media/271_zps77fa9fb2.jpg.html)

I trust this sums up my opinion on the matter. :D

Gah! Dammit. I added a note, but I meant for YES to be the positive (enjoy) option and NO to be the negative (dislike/refuse to play) option.

Eyrenthaal
25-02-2014, 06:32
Im currently fixing up my old school chaos dwarf army so that it can be used both ways.. Way more mileage to be had that way.. My goblin army is made up by snotling models and my empire army is made mostly by using Kislev models.. I think you can see where my vote lies..

The thing though, as I see it, is that it becomes your responsibility to make it really clear which unit is which.. It won't be fun for either of you if you hear your opponent say that; but I thought they were...

Karak Norn Clansman
25-02-2014, 08:19
As long as what you see is what you get is obvious for the units as a whole, then yes by all means.

Eyrenthaal
25-02-2014, 09:03
As long as what you see is what you get is obvious for the units as a whole, then yes by all means.

You'd agree with my chaos dwarfs as regular dwarfs as well or am I about to enter the great book? ;) the plan is for them to be located at the outskirts of the grid at kraka drak, probably fielding a couple of small dragons as flame thrower gyros as well..

theunwantedbeing
25-02-2014, 10:58
Needs to be WYSIWYG otherwise it get's confusing.

One thing you need to avoid is doing something like the following
-The unit of skeletons with the standard doesn't have a standard
-The unit of skeletons without a standard is the unit that has one

VC and Tomb Kings are one of the few armies that actually work when used as each other.

Wargaming93
25-02-2014, 11:00
Not exactly vampires or tomb kings but a friend has used bretonnian knights and bowman as empire knights and archers....just to give it that medieval feel he wanted...he's taken that army to tournaments and what not so there's no problem if you want to mix and match tomb kings with vampire counts...

warhammerscotlandplayer
25-02-2014, 13:43
I voted No, and i'll try and explain why. If as a test/trial, you fancied trying out VC's but used TK for a game or 2, just to get a feel for it then, no worries. but if you decide to play an army is a different matter. I like people to have the models for their particular army on the table, saves confusion and makes it, part of the hobby/game.

For example, the kit man forgets the kit, runs to the store and buys a mix of colours/sizes. Not really helpful is it?

Just my opinion.

SpanielBear
25-02-2014, 14:33
I'd have no objection to playing you whatsoever, with the slight caveat that changing units mid battle (skeletons? No those are grave guard...) would be considered a bit gittish. That said, my personal preference would be for units that are converted up (which it sounds like you're doing). If your vargheist is made from converted ushabti (for sake of argument), that's a lot easier for me as an opponent to recognise and remember than a lone Khemri chariot being proxied in.

Proxies are fine, but I prefer to play armies that look cool with kit-bashes and conversions. Just my preference. :) Like I said, it seems that that's the route you're going down so no worries!

SpanielBear
25-02-2014, 14:48
There's legitimate background justification too. After all, vampires came from Nehekara originally. No reason why a few bloodlines couldn't have kept their sires aesthetic..,

Makaber
25-02-2014, 14:51
I generally don't mind, if you could say: "Right, this is my Vampire Counts army", and I could determine, at a glance, what every unit is and be 100% correct about it. Skeletons are Skeletons and the armies have similar origins (and the Tomb Kings book is very uninspiring). However, I'd start drawing the line at: "Right, this is my Vampire Counts army, but the Warsphinx is actually a coven throne, the Ushabti are actually crypt horrors, the Carrion are actually...". That sort of rampant proxying can be okay between friends in limitation if one of you want to test out something before committing to making the purchase, but I frown against basing the hobby on it.

Worst game I've ever played was against some kid using Dwarf models to proxy an entire Skaven army. It was like playing in the dark. "Okay, and the Dwarf Warriors that are faced backwards are actually Giant Rats. The Dwarf Warriors facing forwards are Clanrats."

Ultimate Life Form
25-02-2014, 15:06
One does not simply use one army's models to form another.

Banville
25-02-2014, 15:18
One does not simply use one army's models to form another.

Hmmmm.... Says who?

I've never done it myself, to be honest but I've played against lots of people who have and I will do again without even a hint of reluctance. Bret's as Empires or Empire as Bret's, orcs as beastmen, no problems.

Ultimate Life Form
25-02-2014, 15:26
Hmmmm.... Says who?

Says I. It's what the OP asked. And yes, my opinion is just as valid as any other. It does bother me, and i don't need to justify myself, but here's a hint: I want to play Warhammer, not "guess the unit". If we let whateverism creep into the game, we can ditch the models altogether and just play with paper cutout movement trays.

That being said, I appreciate any good and creative conversion attempt, but if you gonna pull it off, you better put some effort into it. Just saying these High Elves Count as Dark Elves this time and as Goblins the next time doesn't cut it.

dementian
25-02-2014, 16:25
Says I. It's what the OP asked. And yes, my opinion is just as valid as any other. It does bother me, and i don't need to justify myself, but here's a hint: I want to play Warhammer, not "guess the unit". If we let whateverism creep into the game, we can ditch the models altogether and just play with paper cutout movement trays.

That being said, I appreciate any good and creative conversion attempt, but if you gonna pull it off, you better put some effort into it. Just saying these High Elves Count as Dark Elves this time and as Goblins the next time doesn't cut it.

The OP did mention that he was planning to put effort into converting not merely using "counts as".

After reading this thread actually I have kind of been motivated to convert my beastmen into a warriors of chaos army. Gor kitted out with armor to represent Chaos Warriors, Bestigor for Chosen, Naked Gor for Marauders. With relevant weapon and armor swaps. Marauder horseman going to be built by creating centigor, chaos knights as heavily armored converted centigor (chaos knight's horses as bodies for starters). Chaos Dwarf Bull Centaur to represent Skullcrushers etc...

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
25-02-2014, 19:23
The OP did mention that he was planning to put effort into converting not merely using "counts as".

After reading this thread actually I have kind of been motivated to convert my beastmen into a warriors of chaos army. Gor kitted out with armor to represent Chaos Warriors, Bestigor for Chosen, Naked Gor for Marauders. With relevant weapon and armor swaps. Marauder horseman going to be built by creating centigor, chaos knights as heavily armored converted centigor (chaos knight's horses as bodies for starters). Chaos Dwarf Bull Centaur to represent Skullcrushers etc...


Thanks everyone for the responses.

It seems that the overwhelming consensus is that, save for proxying for a few friendly games to get a feel for a new army before purchase, if I'm going to do this I'd damned-well better do it well. Which, as I *did* mention before, is the plan.

The obvious units, skeletons and grave guard, are a clear swap for skeletons and tomb guard. For the rest I'll have to get creative, and it's likely that this will require a substantial amount of new purchases/conversions. From the consensus I've seen, I'll have to be careful to avoid 'counts-as' units where the stat-lines aren't nearly identical.

Funnily enough, I talked to the friend who made the greatest fuss, and as soon as I started talking about the "Lahmia theme, during the second war of Nagash" he was right back on board: leads me to believe that the main detractors are fluff enthusiasts, and a coherent and well-executed theme could win them over.



ps. @dementian: if you were to do that, I'd strongly suggest bulking up the armour on your units. People might have a hard time accepting unarmoured gors as 3+ save chaos warriors. Give them all some breastplates and nice shields, though, and I think you'd be in business.

...though you could also just do chariots as core instead :P

dementian
25-02-2014, 19:58
Thanks everyone for the responses.

It seems that the overwhelming consensus is that, save for proxying for a few friendly games to get a feel for a new army before purchase, if I'm going to do this I'd damned-well better do it well. Which, as I *did* mention before, is the plan.

The obvious units, skeletons and grave guard, are a clear swap for skeletons and tomb guard. For the rest I'll have to get creative, and it's likely that this will require a substantial amount of new purchases/conversions. From the consensus I've seen, I'll have to be careful to avoid 'counts-as' units where the stat-lines aren't nearly identical.

Funnily enough, I talked to the friend who made the greatest fuss, and as soon as I started talking about the "Lahmia theme, during the second war of Nagash" he was right back on board: leads me to believe that the main detractors are fluff enthusiasts, and a coherent and well-executed theme could win them over.



ps. @dementian: if you were to do that, I'd strongly suggest bulking up the armour on your units. People might have a hard time accepting unarmoured gors as 3+ save chaos warriors. Give them all some breastplates and nice shields, though, and I think you'd be in business.

...though you could also just do chariots as core instead :P

Yeah bulking up the armor was a definite plan!

It's funny that some of the issues people are saying is if you want the army why not just buy the real models...when in fact these types of projects could easily become more expensive than buying the normal models. These projects are undertaken to create a visually appealing theme throughout the army that matches the aesthetic that we are looking for. The amount of time invested can also be outrageous when creating a model isn't simply putting the bits from a kit together but to actively search for the perfect bit from any number of kits that you may be looking to combine.

To get back on track I fully support this. It is a huge hobby undertaking to create a personalized army and as a personal fan of the Tomb King aesthetic and not a fan of the VC aesthetic this is something that I am very interested in keeping an eye on. So make a project log!

SpanielBear
25-02-2014, 22:12
Good luck to both of you, both armies sound awsome!