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Dwarf Longbeard
25-02-2014, 05:19
Hi all,

I've played 40k for quite a while now and I've usually been a Tyranid player but am currently moving onto Daemons, I enjoy the game but when picking an army one unit which I never seem too expect much out of is the monstrous creature; accross any army as a model most are great and as a concept and on paper they look quite good, usually thanks to a good profile and some good special rules.
The obvious drawbacks is the cost and for the fearsome monsters their supposed to be they seem quite fragile, using grenades in combat hasn't helped them much either, and whilst having the high toughness can be good with some of the weapons which are quite easy for any army to get this never seems to be a big factor for long then they have a medium to low save which just feels like they can die quite easily which isn't good when spending the better part of 300 points on a unit.

So I was wondering for the points paid for them are monstrous creatures fine as they are or overrated and would it be a benefit or overpower them if they recieved something like a 4+ Feel No Pain or It Will Not Die! roll too help give them some staying power, some monstrous creatures such as the Wraithknight and Riptide show that with the right boosts they can be a fearsome unit but I've never thought that a Hive Tyrant whilst good is just a lot more vulnerable than the other units.

T10
25-02-2014, 07:54
Well, Monstrous Creatures have some variety in form and purpose, so using them for what they are good at helps you make them "worth it". And I don't need to point out that wishing for them to be more durable won't make it so. :)

There is, however, one thing that nothing in this game is "good at", and that's getting shot.

Sure, some units can weather it better than others, and some can even be immune to low-power weapons, but that generally means those kinds of weapons will be directed else-where. It is true that some heavy weapons feel like they are a perfect match for your big guy: A krak missile is exactly the right Strength to wound a most Tyranid Monstrous Creatures on the optimal 2+, and has exactly the right AP to ignore its armour save. But what are you going to do? Not use monstrous creatures?

Tanks and Dreadnoughts face the same problems, and they need to contend with the possibility of instantly exploding or suffering debilitating damage. Monstrous Creatures fight at 100% efficiency until they lose their last Wound.

-T10

Zmyeevich
25-02-2014, 12:08
What T10 said.
I dont play tyranids, but if I remember correctly most (if not all of them) has a Toughness of 5, thus leaving them vulnerable to instant death from shooting. All daemon greater daemons have a minimum T of 6, thereby being immune to instant death from shooting, while being harder to wound in general as well. I find the Daemon MCs to be some of the best MC in the game. Very good stats and with greater rewards added they get expensive, but they also gain some very needed survivability. Any if the greater rewards will be usefull to a MC. Even with a mere 5++ save, a T6 monster with 4+ FNP or +1W & IWND, will be a pain to put down.

My favorite being a Lord of Change ML3 with the change and divination primaris as well as a roll on divination (hopefully getting the precognision power, but really any power from divination is good) and a lesser reward for the Staff of change.
That is an expensive creature, I admit. But for those 305 pts you get a FMC, that kan put out 3 D6 S5 Ap4 shot with reroll to hit (and to wound if you get the right divination power) each turn. Striking with S8 at I6 ignoring all saves it can do very well in assaults. It can also boost other units with presciense if they need to. To me that is a very versetile unit that can adept to any role on the battlefield, and a well costed unit at that.

For the other three Greater daemons I have found the Great Unclean One to be a good second tier. Not too expensive, it has the potential to be a T10 7W MC, add two greater rewards to that and you have a close to unkillable, though slow, creature, unless facing massed poisoned shots or similar loophole tactics. To date my Great Unclean one has never died.
I find that the bloodthirster is a good assault unit, but very singleminded. In most cases Lord of change will do just as well in an assault (how often does the difference between I6 and I9 make a difference? With WS6, the Lord of Chance will never hit worse than on a 4+ with a reroll to hit). The Bloodthirster has the added bonus of causing instant daeth on 6s, but against most units the Lord of Chance will actually cause instant death anyway with it's S8 attack, while also rerolling to hit. (The bloodthirster strikes at S7 on the charge or S6 otherwise).
When you add the massive firepower of the Lord of Change, as well as it's support capabilities I find it to be the better choice. The bloodthirster is not bad by any standard. The Lord of Change it just...better and more versitile.
I havent yet found a usefull way to use the Keeper of Secrets, so I cant really speak for it's stengths.

The Daemonprince is your costum made MC. You can tailor it to most roles. The two configuration I use the most is as a Heavy Support sidekick to my LoC or GUO. Always wings, warp armour, ML1 and 2 greater rewards (and one lesser forthe Tzeench). They also get to the price of ca 300 pts but they are worth it in my oppinion. (even though I usually keep my units as cheap as possible, I find the MC of the daemons to be worth the investment).

Also remember, that if you opponent are focusing on bringing your MC's down, your other units will mostly remain alive to do the killing, even if a MC is killed.

When fielding MCs (primarily daemon prince, having been a CSM player for far longer than I have been a daemon player), they will not die to lascannons, or demolishers, or plasmaguns. My Daemon prince has been killed by the humble lasgun more times than he has been killed by any other weapon in the game. The sheer quantity of the small arms fire is what will in most cases (in my experience at least) brings your big monsters down.

Camman1984
25-02-2014, 12:19
I think monsterous creastures are great in most situations because of they dont diminish as they get damaged. A 1 wound WK is going to hurt just as much as a 6 wound, but a vehicle will be damaged, stunned, immobilised etc as it goes. And with the HP system they now have a wound mechanism as well.

Look a a dreadnaught hit by a lascannon, it 'wounds' on a 3+, but on a 4+ it wounds and then does additional effects including one shot kill.

whether they are worth it is purely situational. If you have a lightning fast eldar bike army then an avatar is probably not worth it. But in a footdar force they are great. Wraithknights are great but not really worth it versus dark eldar whether str10 is uneccesary and poison is abundant.

naloth
25-02-2014, 13:19
I think monsterous creastures are great in most situations because of they dont diminish as they get damaged. A 1 wound WK is going to hurt just as much as a 6 wound, but a vehicle will be damaged, stunned, immobilised etc as it goes. And with the HP system they now have a wound mechanism as well.

That's pretty well counter balanced since vehicles ignore small arms and tend to appear in larger quantities. Transports are often much cheaper (durable per wound) and as much of a priority target.

A.T.
25-02-2014, 14:34
I dont play tyranids, but if I remember correctly most (if not all of them) has a Toughness of 5, thus leaving them vulnerable to instant death from shooting.The nids are all T6 other than the harpy/crone.

Coming from the other perspective - sisters players have longed for their walker to be an MC rather than the AV11 open topped deathtrap that they get. It's not that MCs or walkers are fragile by nature, some are just more fragile than others and even then it depends on what you face on any given day - poisoned weapons or haywire for instance.

Mauler
25-02-2014, 14:42
I'd say that like any unit a MC's worth is based on how you use it. I've taken my Wraithlord a fair few times and I've loved it every single time, killing things in CC and with a starcannon. It's not survived every game but it's mostly done what I wanted it to do before it karked it.

The other case that springs to mind is my mate's GUO and that thing is an absolute laser-eyed, soul-eating, gurgly-laughing monster. It alsmost always deep strikes into my damn back field and causes utter chaos (harrrr). In one game the GUO rolled up an entire long table edge and mulched a 5-man Terminator squad, 2 Tactical combat squads, my 10-man Scorpion squad gaining wounds as it went (it had 10 wounds by the end of the game, 10) and was eventually halted by my axe Wraithblades. It is an utter terror, in the six games that my Eldar or Tau have faced it I've only managed to drop it twice. Beastly. My mate's Daemon Prince FMC is also pretty adept at vector striking my Pathfinders and flanking tanks.

Inversely, my Wraithknight and Riptide very rarely make a big impact. I've never fielded more than one in a list and I've been pretty underwhelmed by both but I think that just reinforces my point about how to use each MC to it's design.

So yeah, very worth it if used in a way that plays to their strengths, the same as most units.

Dwarf Longbeard
25-02-2014, 20:17
Thanks for the replies and I can understand the part about them being worth it in some situations and they do have their upsides, it's just that sometimes it feels that for the points investment they are quite easy to kill; it is true about the point that they fight at full effect even to the last wound which is nice.
As an example though I lost a Carnifex in close combat to two Thousand Sons marines (It was a Thousand Sons army) and another one to their shooting with bolters

Of course it doesn't help facing an opposing army full of invulnerable saves (Thousand Sons and Terminators) but maybe that's more a case of not the monstrous creatures being bad but more my opponent being afraid of taking a wound so going for invulnerable saves?

Ssilmath
25-02-2014, 20:21
As an example though I lost a Carnifex in close combat to two Thousand Sons marines (It was a Thousand Sons army) and another one to their shooting with bolters.

Thousand Sons butcher 3+ save MC's with their bolters, though the likelihood of them doing it in a single turn is low. Engage the Thousand Sons with Gaunts or Gants and suddenly they become Tactical Marines at twice the price.

Dwarf Longbeard
25-02-2014, 20:37
That is true, their bolters are pretty scary.
But sometimes that's where I find the annoyance, you can have an independent character who can sometimes put out a similar amount of damage but is a lot better protected with armour and invulnerable saves for a lot less cost; granted they don't have nearly the same amount of wounds or toughness, but thanks to grenades in combat the monstrous creature is still being wounded on a 4+

gwarsh41
25-02-2014, 20:53
When you try daemons, use a Lord of change fully decked out with 2 greater, 1 lesser and ML3. Take the lesser Tzeentch weapon. Also try a bloodthirster or GUO out. The thirster can fly, making it pretty awesome, and already has a +3 save. I think you will find that 2 greater daemonic rewards can make an MC very very tanky, especially when you always get your ++5. For example, a lord of change can get forewarning, for a ++4, then a greater reward to re-roll failed invulnerable saves, and a different greater reward for a +4 FnP. You now have 3 50% chances to shrug off anything short of SD weapons. With all that defense, you still have flickering fire and thanks to your lesser reward, are S8 in CC. The Daemon MCs put other MCs to shame, even the big bad tyranid monsters can pale in comparison to the daemonic MCs, the downside is the daemon ones cost a bit more.

AngryAngel
25-02-2014, 21:23
Yes, MC's are worth it. Obviously this is varied depending on which one you speak of. Nothing in the game holds up well to being shot as the game is balanced more heavily towards offense then defense, so it is more simply a matter of how long something can hold out. MC's do that much better then say vehicles. Infantry can be more durable by benefit of size, being able to hide from sight being the ultimate defense.

Slayer-Fan123
25-02-2014, 21:53
Depends how many points they are, just like every other unit in this game.

Langdon
26-02-2014, 03:39
Depends on the army.

Ripetide Variants, WraithKnight and most of the Daemons are examples of good bang for the buck

DE suffer for theirs. They just have no use in the list.