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View Full Version : My idea, for what they should do instead of a Knight Codex.



dangerboyjim
26-02-2014, 01:42
I know there's been a lot of Knight threads, but I wanted to bounce this specific idea off people.

I don't think Knights have any place in the regular game. I think the only reason GW are making rules for this, is to try and shift more units to recover the cost of developing the kit (there I Said it). This is what I think they should have done instead:

- Left the Knight as a Superheavy for use in Apocalypse, (or Escalation), put all the rules in WD and release it digitally for those that can't buy that WD.
- Developed a dice and card game in conjunction with Fantasy Flight Games, for players to have Knight duels.

High level Summary of game:
Each player would be able to take cards from a deck to load out their Knight so each game would be different, covering pilots, upgrades etc, and there would be special rules and cards to cover damage control, repair, special orders, manoeuvres etc. it's basically like X-Wing, but with Knights. You COULD have one on one battles using the existing rules, of course, but by allowing many variations in load out and tactical options not currently present in the main game you could make these battles more exciting. I picture this as the 'advanced' version where current rules are the 'basic'. The way I see this would work is a small rulebook, some dice and a deck of about 60 cards (per knight) would be all that would be required, FF should be able to run off batches of cards for use in this fairly easily with their facilities.

This achieves 3 things:

1) It DOESN'T break regular games of 40K.
2) It means people have a reason to buy the Knight model for more than just apocalypse/escalation games. Helping players justify the cost and therefore making them more likely to buy it.
3) It makes for an expandable game that could be extended to other models like Stompas, Baneblades, Much Forgeworld stuff etc. (If I could, I would retrospectively add in the Riptide and Wraith Knight as well) So players can use their collection of models more frequently than just the few times a year they get together to play apocalypse.

In summary: Recover cost of producing model, plus profit, without breaking 40K, neat FF/40K specialist game created (takes bow)


Obviously GW won't do this, it goes without saying.


But as well as a general, what do you think of that? - My questions to you are:

Do you agree that Knights should stay out of regular 40K
Would you prefer this to a Codex:Imperial Knights (this does require some pre-judging of the contents, sorry)?
Do you think a games such as this would encourage people into buying knights, that otherwise wouldn't buy them if they could only be used in Apocalypse/Escalation?

Dr.Clock
26-02-2014, 10:05
I think the main problem you run into with this concept is that the envisioned card game seems to require both sides to have at least a single Knight, and further, would be hard to make 'deep' without having more than one model on each side.

I think there MAY be room for a LESS complex 40k game that relies on introduction of cards and the like for larger games of 40k. You could, for instance, start using 'stands' of models in a more abstract manner, not unlike infantry blocks in Fantasy. Instead of having to roll individually for each model, weapon etc., units would have 'collective' stats with less variety.

In sum, something like Epic40k, but using many of the same models as 40k, and for use with forces that in regular 40k would be at the 3k+ point range, with a focus on the 'larger' models like Knights (of all stripes) and superheavy tanks.

Just my .02p

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Voss
26-02-2014, 12:10
I think it is a bad idea. Another weird spinoff game that lasts 6 months wouldn't be good for anyone. And to buy a big kit per player just to play a terrible unrelated spinoff game that has nothing to do with the models doesn't even make any sense.


I don't think Knights have any place in the regular game. I think the only reason GW are making rules for this, is to try and shift more units to recover the cost of developing the kit (there I Said it)
You've got a weird tautology going on here. They only made rules for the kit they made for the game so it could be played in the game they made it for to recover costs of making the kit for the game.

GW doesn't really make kits for non-GW games, or for... not being in the game at all, so yeah... they made rules so you could use the new kit in game. This is in no way strange or unusual. There only other real option was... not making the kit.

Gungo
26-02-2014, 12:29
Your idea is bad as stated for a card game furthermore your concept revolves around knights being bad for the game and it's not. I'm not buying a knight but it really isn't game breaking. It's a vehicle that still takes damage with weight of fire and especially vulnerable to close combat. It still has. Chance to just die. It's pretty big chunk of points and it's weapon load puts aren't overpowered. Although I still prefer str d weapons turned into a str 10 ap1 variant. Regardless it's fluffy cool looking and has strengths and weaknesses. The only thing that will make these knights overpowered will be forgeworld when thy try to shove stupid weapons like quake cannons on the thing. But people will do what they always do and ban forgeworld rules.

Spiney Norman
26-02-2014, 12:48
I know there's been a lot of Knight threads, but I wanted to bounce this specific idea off people.

I don't think Knights have any place in the regular game. I think the only reason GW are making rules for this, is to try and shift more units to recover the cost of developing the kit (there I Said it). This is what I think they should have done instead:

- Left the Knight as a Superheavy for use in Apocalypse, (or Escalation), put all the rules in WD and release it digitally for those that can't buy that WD.
- Developed a dice and card game in conjunction with Fantasy Flight Games, for players to have Knight duels.

High level Summary of game:
Each player would be able to take cards from a deck to load out their Knight so each game would be different, covering pilots, upgrades etc, and there would be special rules and cards to cover damage control, repair, special orders, manoeuvres etc. it's basically like X-Wing, but with Knights. You COULD have one on one battles using the existing rules, of course, but by allowing many variations in load out and tactical options not currently present in the main game you could make these battles more exciting. I picture this as the 'advanced' version where current rules are the 'basic'. The way I see this would work is a small rulebook, some dice and a deck of about 60 cards (per knight) would be all that would be required, FF should be able to run off batches of cards for use in this fairly easily with their facilities.

This achieves 3 things:

1) It DOESN'T break regular games of 40K.
2) It means people have a reason to buy the Knight model for more than just apocalypse/escalation games. Helping players justify the cost and therefore making them more likely to buy it.
3) It makes for an expandable game that could be extended to other models like Stompas, Baneblades, Much Forgeworld stuff etc. (If I could, I would retrospectively add in the Riptide and Wraith Knight as well) So players can use their collection of models more frequently than just the few times a year they get together to play apocalypse.

In summary: Recover cost of producing model, plus profit, without breaking 40K, neat FF/40K specialist game created (takes bow)


Obviously GW won't do this, it goes without saying.


But as well as a general, what do you think of that? - My questions to you are:

Do you agree that Knights should stay out of regular 40K
Would you prefer this to a Codex:Imperial Knights (this does require some pre-judging of the contents, sorry)?
Do you think a games such as this would encourage people into buying knights, that otherwise wouldn't buy them if they could only be used in Apocalypse/Escalation?

Leave the knight as it is, its not going to "break the game" by any stretch.

Its funny that when the rules first hit there was a load of rage at how they were woefully underpowered and couldn't possibly compare to the riptide or wraith knight because they were vehicles and not MC. Now we've come full circle and knight are "game breaking".

I've played games of escalation and superheavies are not in any way game breaking, it might be worth getting used to it as well because I have a feeling the escalation rules are going to be fully integrated into the brb when the next rules revision comes out (rumoured for May).

Gungo
26-02-2014, 16:18
Honestly the d weapon thing annoys me. The whole idea of just removing models under a template without any saves should be saved for the few rare vortex weapons in game that are thankfully limited to apoc.

But as long as the vendetta still fires 3 twin linked las cannons and is an av12 flyer. The heavy stubbers on the knights don't bother me and make knights susceptible to flyers.

They are huge targets for ordinance weapons with a forward facing shield that won't protect from side armour hits.

and are not fast enough to deal with a melta vet squad full of melta bombs assaulting it. It's an av 12 vehicle that still can blow up.

I rather have a pair of leman Russ tanks behind a void shield relay for the same amount of points Id pay for a single knight.

MajorWesJanson
26-02-2014, 16:39
Knights are already in the base game. Look in the Eldar Codex under Wraithknight.

Chem-Dog
26-02-2014, 18:08
I'd prefer a campaign based Knight game to cards.

dangerboyjim
26-02-2014, 19:16
Well I guess the juries in and it's a thumbs down.

I'm surprised by the number of people that don't agree with me that an army entirely composed of superheavy walkers, in the regular game (ie NOT Escalation or Apocalypse) is game breaking.

Most of the models in an all comer list won't have anything to do except deny objectives and die.

Theocracity
26-02-2014, 19:38
Well I guess the juries in and it's a thumbs down.

I'm surprised by the number of people that don't agree with me that an army entirely composed of superheavy walkers, in the regular game (ie NOT Escalation or Apocalypse) is game breaking.

I know Knights are popular, but do we seriously expect every 40K game to suddenly become All Knight All the Time? Play against knight lists as a fun scenario variant every once in a while but just say no if its seriously a problem.


Most of the models in an all comer list won't have anything to do except deny objectives and die.

As a player who enjoys Green Tide, I'm used to my boy's main objective being to take up space. And hey, if you don't have to roll any dice at least it'll go quick.

Meanwhile, if they have even one weapon that can glance AV12, they should be maneuvering to outflank the knights and take advantage of their positional shield. That way they're at least doing something.

dangerboyjim
26-02-2014, 19:58
just say no if its seriously a problem.

I guess what I'm saying is that if you are at the point you are refusing games, the game is broken. (If it isn't, why would you say no?)

Lord Damocles
26-02-2014, 20:03
The game has been 'broken' since forever.


Knights aren't going to change that any more than Virus Bombs, Rhino rush, Iron Warriors, Starcannon spam, Lash Princes, or any of the other units/lists/wargear which broke the game.

Theocracity
26-02-2014, 20:05
I guess what I'm saying is that if you are at the point you are refusing games, the game is broken. (If it isn't, why would you say no?)

There's been a lot of discussion about this from other people, but the précis of it is that you should always play the game that you want to play, and that this is not a new thing. People have had no problem denying games with Forgeworld, CoD, Planetstrike, or custom narrative scenarios for years. The only difference is that nowadays the responsibility is on the players to determine their environment.

dangerboyjim
26-02-2014, 20:34
All those are things you agree before hand to do. (play a game of X) Knights are now in the default, standard, basic, ordinary games of wh40k, just in the same way Eldar or Space Marines are.

There have always been things like virus bombs, screamer star etc. but they are instances of badly made rules, this I would say, is a much larger problem, in that we now have an entire codex that makes no sense.

But I guess this is just another Knight thread now, so I'll stop there. Clearly this is a much larger problem for me, than most people (Seriously; it's an entire army of super heavy walkers in a skirmish game are you all out of your minds!?!) ahem. So I guess like multi denominational chaos warbands, I'll just have to get over it.

Theocracity
26-02-2014, 20:43
What it boils down to is that between core expansions, dataslates, faction supplements, mini-codexes, and entirely different game settings from Forgeworld there is no default, standard, basic game of 40K anymore. If you have a problem with the particular combination of allowable rules present in a proposed game, you should briefly chat with your opponent so that you can come to common ground and both enjoy yourselves.

Chem-Dog
26-02-2014, 20:49
I guess what I'm saying is that if you are at the point you are refusing games, the game is broken. (If it isn't, why would you say no?)

Why would you turn down a game? If the odds are stacked so badly against you it makes it fun to last-out as long as you can or to try to clutch a bloody draw from the jaws of certain defeat. Be Leonidas, be David, be Babydoll.

Failing that, seriously reconsider your definition of "All-comer list" if you can't at least semi reliably engage an AV13 vehicle, you're doing it wrong.

dangerboyjim
26-02-2014, 21:02
This is what I mean,

In this entirely hyperthetical example. I bring an average list, someone brings an entire army of superheavy walkers, and because half my units can't touch my opponent, I'm doing it wrong.

Like I said, I guess I just need to get over it.

Ssilmath
26-02-2014, 21:05
Okay. You bring an average list, somebody shows up with 5 Riptides. Or 180 Ork Boyz. Or 11 Fliers. Or go back an edition, somebody shows up with 12 Razorbacks. Or an edition before that, somebody shows up with (Insert gamebreaker here).

In every one of those circumstances, you can choose to walk away. Or you can ask to tweak your list, because otherwise you have no chance. Either way, you are under no obligation to play a game you won't enjoy.

Theocracity
26-02-2014, 21:22
This is what I mean,

In this entirely hyperthetical example. I bring an average list, someone brings an entire army of superheavy walkers, and because half my units can't touch my opponent, I'm doing it wrong.

Like I said, I guess I just need to get over it.

Neither of you are 'doing it wrong.' You two just have different expectations and need to come to common ground.

Maybe that guy needs an opponent with a list that could challenge him, or just wants to get his kicks in for a game but is willing to bring something different next time. Maybe you can edit your list to be more flexible, or be willing for a different kind of challenge, or just need to find someone different to play today. Or you both could meet in the middle somewhere.

dangerboyjim
26-02-2014, 22:26
Okay. You bring an average list, somebody shows up with 5 Riptides. Or 180 Ork Boyz. Or 11 Fliers. Or go back an edition, somebody shows up with 12 Razorbacks. Or an edition before that, somebody shows up with (Insert gamebreaker here).

In every one of those circumstances, you can choose to walk away. Or you can ask to tweak your list, because otherwise you have no chance. Either way, you are under no obligation to play a game you won't enjoy.

But the game is designed so that wouldn't happen. The FOC would stop all but 180 Orks coming at you, and I reckon I could take that. Even at 3 riptides, most things at least have a chance to damage them.

The intention of the FOC and assigning points to models is that two player could separately create armies of roughly equivalent strength, yes some list are stronger than others, and spam lists can imbalance the game, but that's the idea.

But an entire army of super heavies just takes that idea and crushes it under its giant metal feet. You either tailor a list specifically to fighting knights, or don't bother. No other army does this. It's going to make for some crushingly dull tournaments.


And I DO get the point that opponents can make what they want from the game, if you and your opponent want to do it, go right ahead. But it just seems really strange that the idea that two forces, of equal points, without being silly, would make for a roughly balanced game, is now gone. Not because of some badly implemented rules combos (as has always happened) but by design.

On reflection I think what's happened here is the game has moved on and I'm stuck 5-10-20 years whatever in the past. Carry on.

Ssilmath
26-02-2014, 22:35
You can quite easily get 180 boyz in a single FOC, and under 1500 points too.

And yes, there are other armies that crush you if you aren't well prepared. 9 Vendettas are going to walk all over somebody who doesn't have lots of anti air. I'm sure others can come up with lots of other examples. Even if points were perfect, a spam list is going to roll over anything that doesn't explicitly counter it. Take all comers is really a misnomer, as they can rarely take unbalanced lists without doing so themselves.

And this is nothing new. An entire army of Rhino Rushing Blood Angels assaulting you on turn 1? An entire army of MEQ's with plasma, melta and power weapons infiltrating where they want to? No, this is nothing new at all, just a different way people will press what advantage they can find to get a win. Somebody who shows up with a 4 Knight army and demands that you play against them with a mid level, take all comers army is someone I would classify as a jerk.

Chem-Dog
26-02-2014, 22:41
This is what I mean,

In this entirely hyperthetical example. I bring an average list, someone brings an entire army of superheavy walkers, and because half my units can't touch my opponent, I'm doing it wrong.

Like I said, I guess I just need to get over it.

When I say doing it wrong, I mean All-comers lists specifically, most armies in that category will have a handful of tank-killing units in it because that's a part of being ready to face any army you face. If you come with an all infantry army with nothing more powerful than a heavy bolter in your army, you're boned - fair enough, extreme build A trumps extreme build B - but if you are ready for anything, you should have a halfway reasonable chance against anything you get thrown at you.
Even if you're using Krak Grenades to nickle'n'dime hull points off of the back/sides of a Knight. even if you're throwing meltabomb-armed dudes under it's feet in the hope of getting a decent hit* you can do something. Every Hull Point removed can be a triumph and glory of glories if you can destroy a Knight entirely.

I dunno what armies you use but there are units in every Codex that can give Knights a scare and at around 400 points for a single knight, you can usually get quite a lot of them.
Failing that- Allied Vendetta Squadron with Meltavets :shifty:.

*provided you can overcome Fear, they are only Ws4.

dangerboyjim
26-02-2014, 22:58
I assure you, an all infantry army with nothing more than heavy bolter is not my idea of an all-comer list! I know that's not the point you are making, you are saying a decent 'average' list should be able to put up a fight against an all Knight List, maybe, but I really doubt it. Let's agree to disagree and see what happens over the next few months.

I think we're getting into some familiar territory here, apart from my unshared wide eyed disbelief at what an awful precedence Codex: Imperial Knights is. I'll go away and try to pull myself together.

and @Ssilmath - 180 Orks, yes, just like I agreed in the last post. Vendettas, Rhinos blah etc. yes, spam has existed before. This, and this is the thing that boggles my mind, is the first time that we have a codex entirely comprised of spamming hard to kill units. Actually the thing that boggles the mind is everyone seems OK with that.

<shakes head and wanders off muttering about bright stallions>

Ssilmath
26-02-2014, 23:02
This, and this is the thing that boggles my mind, is the first time that we have a codex entirely comprised of spamming hard to kill units. Actually the thing that boggles the mind is everyone seems OK with that.

When you get players who have the mentality to spam only hard to kill units, it doesn't matter what the rest of the codex is composed of. They are going to spam those units.

And if they try and spring a list of nothing but Knights on me without notice, I won't play them. Same as if they try and push 5 Riptides or 4 Heldrakes on me. I'm not that kind of gamer. But if they want to play 4 Knights at 1500 points, I'll gladly oblige and tailor a list. It won't be tailored to crush them, which is easy, but instead tailored to give a good hard fight for both players. That way everybody can have fun.

agurus1
27-02-2014, 00:14
This, and this is the thing that boggles my mind, is the first time that we have a codex entirely comprised of spamming hard to kill units. Actually the thing that boggles the mind is everyone seems OK with that.

how is this new? Paladin spam was big an edition ago, same with biker nobz, and other silliness. Literally for Paladins you had an army full of 2+/5++, FNP, 2 wound models, with maybe some Dreadknights in the mix. How is that not an army of hard to kill units? I don't think that its a matter of "everyone being OK with that" but truthfully AV13 isn't all that hard to counter even with a reasonable solid balanced list. In a 1500 list you can fit 4 Knight Paladins. What can you fit in your average balanced list? I know that my Iron Warriors would certainly stand a chance, and going in I wouldn't see victory as out of my reach. Think about it this way… all you need is 2 explosion results to knock out a knight. Not that hard in the big picture.

Today for instance I played a test game against my friends Orks, we both played it as Escalation, he brought some Skullhammer thing with loads of boyz in it and I used a Khorne engine as a counts as Knight. While the knight did whip a squad of 30 boys in CC (in which I was very luck his Nob didn't land a couple of pens since he charged me), and also blew up the Skullhammer in CC, guess what brought down the dreaded superheavy in the end? Glancing it to death over a couple of turns from Lootas.

Dr.Clock
27-02-2014, 05:46
I suppose, to give the OP the benefit of the doubt, a primary issue of an all-knight list is that for most 'bread and butter' units, their primary armament will be essentially useless against a Knight. I tend to like a gaming environment that focuses a little more on the troops - a 'low fantasy' rather than 'high fantasy' kind of thing. Having a game where a good half of your army's objective is 'don't die' seems a little like you're robbing the player of even the possibility that many of his prized models will do anything at all during a game.

That being said, I don't think such a list has 'no place in the game'. While it might make certain iterations of the game less than ideal, I can envision facing off against 5 Knights with a more or less tailored list to be pretty great fun as you try and combine heavy fire with the odd tactical assault to stall the enemy advance. It has the possibility to give a very cinematic scenario where it may APPEAR that the small grunts are hopelessly overmatched, but that they actually have a decent chance of winning.

The point about the 'swing' of the meta is also good, but remember: building a 5 Knight list is going to run someone about 700 dollars... It's not something I'd expect to see alot of, especially considering that all of the above are going to occur to pretty much anyone building such a list. At the end of the day, I think most players like to have at least two kinds of model at their disposal in a game, just for the sake of variety. Further, this is absolutely the kind of list that I feel people will have no problem turning down if they haven't brought an appropriate matchup for it, and thus I think many buyers will be wary of building this list simply because the 'cost per use' becomes much larger than for most other models. One or two Knights might form the foundation of a cool 'allied' list that you use pretty often. 5 Knights? Who wants to play that every week?

Just like Planetstrike or City of Death, or more recently escalation, however, you might find that the introduction of this new kind of force simply BEGS for more options for the opponent. I can easily envision drafting up some 'stratagems' or the like to give some units more anti-armour bite. The game, after all, is what you make it. Even just making krak grenades/meltabombs more widely available to some units would have a huge impact. More than this, developing scenarios, or even just placing terrain in such a way as to reward the players for doing different things could make even an actually onesided matchup much easier for the scrawny infantry force to win.

From a much broader perspective, I think Knights may actually be GOOD for the game in so far as they increase the variety of builds you customarily see. The introduction of a widely available super-heavy walker could a) increase the use of armour generally as people start to figure out that using the Knight as an early game fire magnet means less fire coming at your more conventional armour, and b) people will start to think more seriously about including traditional anti-heavy armour units/armament that have dropped in popularity since Hull Points became a thing. Simply put, in a 'max 4' hull point environment, with relatively few AV 13+ vehicles, high rate of fire S 6-7 is usually most efficient. If you're seeing Knights in maybe 1 in 3 games, however, those lascannons and meltaguns start looking far more tempting.

Even modeling up a few 'replacement' models for the Knight lists, I think, is well within the realm of casual play. While tournament play relies on you sticking with a single build, casual play does not - and a small amount of flexibility based on opponent can be expected. Why not bring along an extra unit or two, plus some alternative war gear to swap into a basic list in the case you know you're going to face a few Knights? As a list junkie, I'm interested to see how different lists would change if they knew they'd be facing heavier armour. While 'tailoring' done poorly can result in terrible matchups, if both players do it I think the game can be better - you end up with fewer 'useless' units, and you don't have to cover as much ground.

Finally, and I know it's been said, but this game has always been what you make of it. I respect that you're worried about being ambushed by trolls, but with a little diplomacy and tact, you should be able to discuss these issues with people as they arise. The fact that your models are at war on the table doesn't mean that you and your opponent need to be at war in real life. If you find a given person to be resistant to any of your suggestions on how to play a good game, then walk away with the 'victory' of having asserted yourself and tried to engage productively in the hobby. Without you trying, and talking, and actually not playing games you don't want to play, the real trolls of the gaming world will win in the end.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

agurus1
27-02-2014, 06:59
I like what the Doctor brought up as far as alternative scenarios. I good idea for a game vs 5 Knights would be something like, you get a VP for every Knight still on the table when the game ends, whereas the Knight player gets VP for each Knight that can march off the opponents table edge? Something that highlights tactical engagements where victory revolves around more than just killing units or seizing objectives? Besides what the Doctor said about changing overall army comps, I think that this is another good thing that might occur with players changing the types of scenarios they normally run.

dangerboyjim
27-02-2014, 07:55
[QUOTE=agurus1;7084977]how is this new? Paladin spam was big an edition ago, same with biker nobz, and other silliness. [QUOTE]

Every unit in the game can potentially kill a Paladin, they are tough, but die eventually. What new, is an entire army immune to most of the guns on the table.

But I guess people are right, it's not broken, you either refuse to play it or apply a few fixes and it's fine. Not broken at all...

agurus1
27-02-2014, 08:21
It's not broken if you can defeat it. 2 pens can equal a dead Knight. Just stop relying on scatter lasers and autocannons and start bringing missile launchers and lascannons again.

agurus1
28-02-2014, 03:14
I agree, no Xenos should have access to Knights. CSM though should