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Simpai
27-02-2014, 08:27
Hi guy/gals!

I dont spend too much time browsing the rules-section of this forum, though something which caught my attention came up in a game and i wanted somone else's view on the matter, so you know, feel free to help out :)

I was watching a game (ogres VS wood elves) were a unit of 5 wardancers positioned themselves in front of a big unit of core ogres so that the ogre unit could only draw line of sight to one of the wardancer-models, and after declaring a charge at the wardancers, the wardancers "pushed themselves together around the center first-rank model", (dont know what this move is called at the moment), -in accordence with the skirmisher rule for ranking up when in melee, which is done before charge distance is rolled, thus taking the unit out of line of sight of the ogre unit causing them to fail their charge.

First of, if this has already been discussed somewhere else I apologize please just restate what was agreed upon in mentioned thread.

If this is the first time this scenario is brought to light in this forum; what is your take on it?

I for one feel like it might be a bit against the spirit of the rules, (maybe?)
But otherwise what an awesome move! negating deathstars for who knows how many rounds by simply puting tiny units of harpys or furies (ideally) in such a way!

T10
27-02-2014, 08:38
Hi.

In this case the game effectively crashes since it has achieved a non-legal state: You are not allowed to declare a charge against a target unless you can reach it, and you cannot reach the target because you have declared a charge against it.

Restore the game from the last successful (armour) save and try again.

But seriously: Who is in the wrong here? The player that insists on blocking an opponent by using an unresolvable situation to his advantage, or the player who is forced to respond to this? Hint: It's not guy number 2.

-T10

Micalovits
27-02-2014, 09:00
Actually the charge can still be completed, as you only need to draw line of sight when declaring the charge, not when actually moving the chargers. so it goes like this:
1: The ogres can see the wardancers, and can as such the declare a charge.
2: The wardancers "form up" and are now outside the line of sight of the ogres, however this doesn't matter as it isn't a requirement to actually move the ogres.
3: The ogres roll their charge range and move for charging, note that no where in the section of moving charges in the book does it require LOS.

T10
27-02-2014, 09:23
You are of course correct: The charging unit needs line of sight to declare the charge, but it does not need to maintain line of sight while executing it.

Also, it should be noted that line of sight is not limited to the model's forward arc, though "within the forward arc" is a frequent requirement paired with that of line of sight.

I should have been more precise with regards to the nature of this exploit: The goal is to set up the skirmishers in such a way that it blocks the enemy unit from moving straight forward (or wheel past), thus blocking them from declaring a charge at any other target unit. However, instead of using the unit in a sacrificial capacity (by accepting the charge and likely getting it destroyed, or by fleeing allowing the enemy to attempt to redirect), the goal is to use the "compact when charged" feature of the skirmishers rule to move all models down past the front line of the enemy unit.

Since the maximum allowed wheel during a charge is 90 degress, the chargers will not be able to actually move into contact with the skirmishers.

-T10

Simpai
27-02-2014, 10:25
Thank you for your response!
All of this is true, and would during almost all circumstances render further debate unnecessary.
However i am going to do so in any case just to, "push the point" if you will.

Would a similar scenario work with a larger skirmishing unit?
Asuming it would be in such an angle to make the skirmishing unit tighten up enough to move it outside the 90-degree wheel of the charging unit?
Or would you assume such a move to violate the "against the spirit of the rule" part of the (sometimes) "fluffy" rules of 8th?
If so, how would you play it out?
group the skirmishers close enough to the charging unit to allow them to make a legal charge, or allow the chargin unit to make a charge at a wheel of more then 90degrees?
As both are againt clearly written rules in the big book of doom ;)

Mostly out of curiosity this time :)

Micalovits
27-02-2014, 12:22
Assuming the skirmishers are placed so that when they group up the charging unit can't hit them due to the single wheel rule, I would probably play it out as a failed charge, pretty much just as if another charger hadn't moved out of the way/moved in the way.
That said, what happens if the skirmishing unit don't have place to spread out afterwards? Do they simply stick together, or are they pushed "away" from the blocking unit?

Simpai
27-02-2014, 16:46
A good point as well!
As they are not allowed to change their formation of RnF models ;)

furrie
28-02-2014, 08:12
Thank you for your response!
All of this is true, and would during almost all circumstances render further debate unnecessary.
However i am going to do so in any case just to, "push the point" if you will.

Would a similar scenario work with a larger skirmishing unit?
Asuming it would be in such an angle to make the skirmishing unit tighten up enough to move it outside the 90-degree wheel of the charging unit?
Or would you assume such a move to violate the "against the spirit of the rule" part of the (sometimes) "fluffy" rules of 8th?
If so, how would you play it out?
group the skirmishers close enough to the charging unit to allow them to make a legal charge, or allow the chargin unit to make a charge at a wheel of more then 90degrees?
As both are againt clearly written rules in the big book of doom ;)

Mostly out of curiosity this time :)

It would mean you can't charge, so you arn't even allowed to declare a charge. Seeing as you are only allowed to declare a charge that has a change of succeeding

Lord Solar Plexus
28-02-2014, 16:33
Please note that The Skirmisher Contraction is also considered worst play at many events (compare https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=14JSOKks_7eyeecC8HZ0N-8gQj82YBjG0iw1s-RneOt8).

Simpai
28-02-2014, 23:36
Thank you again!
Much insight has been had ;)

Lord Solar Plexus: I did not know such a document existed, good to know indeed!