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Meraell
28-02-2014, 09:10
Hey guys,

Been playing WHF for 3-4 years, but atm, 40K is so popular over my region, that I can't ignore it; guys playing at the local clubs ED, monthly tourny/tournies, etc, I must recognise wish it was the same for WHF.

I've been looking the diff. armies -as I know nothing about rules- and I love both SM and Eldar, but dunno which one to start, would love to know the different styles of both armies, from my experience in Fantasy, I like versatile and balance books, playing TAC lists, with good manouverablity and able to go different ways and not only one.

I've read here and there to don't start SM as everybody have the army, but I like the miniatures too much, so will see which one to pick depending on playing styles. Thank you very much in advance for your tips!

With regards,

M.

Poseidal
28-02-2014, 10:03
What do others play?

If there aren't many Eldar players, and you like the models then you can't go wrong with them (though Aspects being only in FC can be a pain).

The Eldar book is considered top tier, but internally the balance is very good. Almost everything works in its role, the only thing that really is kind of OTT is the Wave Serpent in large numbers and apparently the Jetseer council (which has always been complained about) and the latter doesn't even have models.

Zombie P
28-02-2014, 10:28
Yeah, essentially what do others in your area play, if there is a race gap that lines up with your options, use it. Eldar can do TAC, although their is a fairly steep learning curve to them, if you are starting off with no experience you will have more of an advantage in learning them quicker.

Space Marines come in so many flavors, do you have any in particular that you have picked out?

ZP

Still Standing
28-02-2014, 11:35
There is no learning curve with the new Eldar. Point Suncannons and Serpents Shields at enemy units, tell opponent to pick them up. I play Eldar, and they are not a difficult army. However, they look fantastic, their background is amazing and there are more variety of play styles than just about any other army. Go for it I say!

nosebiter
28-02-2014, 11:41
Eldar.

They have the sexiest miniatures, one of the most interesting codexes and alot of good units.

And if you dont spam waveserpents/seercouncil on jetbikes, the opponent will still like you afterwards.

Meraell
28-02-2014, 12:42
Cheers a lot guys, I see a good variation of all armies, I meant reading on the internet about everyone doing Space Marines, but I think it's not actually that true? I mean, I look at tournies results, and I normally see a good variation of armies, also, it seems, SM aren't a top tier, but kinda in the middle of the road.

As for Eldar, yeah, I know about them being OP with their new book, so many bandwagoners can be expected, LOL.

Answering this question " Space Marines come in so many flavors, do you have any in particular that you have picked out?" well, I'm asking about different styles for each army and see if I can decide, so far, I know Eldar players like the Jet Seer council, the beaststar... And for marines, drop pods, or bikes, LR/Predators... Makes any sense what I'm saying? :angel:

Gerod253
28-02-2014, 17:28
It really depends on what inspires you the most. While race gaps in local groups can make a difference the truth is that you'll, hopefully, be building this army over the next few years and your gaming group is most likely going to go through a lot of social changes during that time as people join or leave and new books are released. So, making a decision based primarily upon group dynamics is great in the short term, but has a higher potential to leave you somewhere you don't want to be when live moves on.

So, what about 40K and Science Fiction inspires you?
If you like Eldar the most then build them and forget the bandwagoners. They'll be gone soon enough when the next thing comes out.
If you like SM then forget the Internet rage. Some people complain even when handed a bar of gold for Christmas.

I don't know much about Eldar, but SM have a wide variety of builds right now. Everything can be done from a fast moving biker army to drop pods and storm ravens screaming in from orbit. The army tends to be forgiving and with the high armor and toughness of the marines you will tend to stick around longer. Plus, since it is a lower model count army, you'll be able to grow your force faster. Not to mention, thanks to Forge World, there are a lot of fun extra toys for SM to play with above what is already on the GW website.

To sum up, take the long view and build what you want to build without worrying about the other stuff.

daemonprinceyourself
28-02-2014, 17:54
Well I play both of these factions so I will give you some input on my thoughts.

First Marines.
I play Ultramarines (THE Space Marine chapter that generates the most hate). They are an extremely versatile army with great Chapter Tactics that allow you to do most anything with your army on the fly. Need some important assault this turn? There's a Doctrine for that! Have a shooting phase where everybody gets a shot and you want to make it really count? There is a Doctrine for that! Need your heavy firepower (devastators) to move into a better fire position or have opposing assaults imminent and need some extra overwatch? There is a Doctrine for that!

As for marines overall, there are one of the most versatile books in the game. There are several chapters with different chapter tactics that can drastically change how the army plays. There are few units in the book that I would deem "bad", although there are some that are better than others. Most things can be made to work. Marines have the benefit of being pretty durable in the infantry department, have leaders that can be equipped to just wreck face, have an abundance of great support characters, have plenty of cheap vehicles (and super cheap transports), have flyer support, shooting infantry, and assaulty infantry. There isn't much marines can't do.

As for Eldar, they are largely different, but also very versatile. I personally think the codex for Eldar is one of the best I've seen in awhile. There is almost no units I see in there that I would just not want to use as they will underperform. And I've used most units and they are just awesome. They have a tremendous range of infantry, many of them boasting some truly impressive firepower. Just be wary, as Eldar are largely T3 across the board with 3+ or 4+ saves, so they can be a bit soft. Luckily, their transport, the Wave Serpent, is one of the very best in the game. (Be warned, in regular play, people might not enjoy seeing many of them across the board. In tournies, go for it!). Eldar also boast some of the very toughest infantry and Monsterous creatures in the game with Wraithguard and Wraithknights/lords. These guys are terrors and fun to play with, but expensive points wise (and money). Multiple wraithknights may also garner some hate in regular games.

The biggest thing to know about Eldar is that they are fast. Like crazy fast. they are great and moving up, annihilating a unit, then disappearing like they were never there. No other army has the hit and run ability of the Eldar.

Alright, gotta get to class so I'll end it there. good luck with the choice and I hope this helps!

Saunders
28-02-2014, 17:57
I'm biased as an eldar player, but either space marines or eldar are excellent choices to enter the game system. They both have current codex releases for the current rules edition, and are generally fun and effective to play with.

Sir Didymus
28-02-2014, 19:08
Rules change, but models remain.

So go get the models you like the most - hey, why not go for a Marine/Eldar alliance to give you the best of both worlds?

Zombie P
28-02-2014, 19:31
Answering this question " Space Marines come in so many flavors, do you have any in particular that you have picked out?" well, I'm asking about different styles for each army and see if I can decide, so far, I know Eldar players like the Jet Seer council, the beaststar... And for marines, drop pods, or bikes, LR/Predators... Makes any sense what I'm saying? :angel:

I think so, lets give it a go. The thing is, "marines" covers 6 different books and 12 different chapter tactics (although some of them aren't called that yet), and these chapter tactics should change how you build and play your army from one set of tactics to the next.

Using your previous fantasy knowledge as a description I hope it might express my points more clearly (hope I say, although sometimes there isnt a lot for me :P)

Space marines play in general like chaos warriors, and eldar play like a mixture of high elves and wood elves. I know this is the most general of distinctions, but really, each race is based off the other between genres, so its not a bad description.

The first distinction is between loyalsit and chaos. Spiky or no spiky? The chaos dex is OK, but really lacks internal balance and hangs on a few key units to be in any way competitive.

If no Spiky, then there are only 5 books left, I will try and give a brief and fair description of each.

Blood Angels: Space vampires. Assault marines as troops, lots of fast vehicles, excessive amount of land raiders, broad range of units. Still got a 5th edition book, these guys are showing their age now. 6th ed really killed off their initial competitive streak, now its a lot more difficult (although still possible). Unique for their cool (IMO) backstory, excessive jump packs and fast vehicles. Cool range of characters and great specialist kits.
Dark Angels: Space Knights. Nice shiny new 6th ed book. Points are mostly in line, a few cool artifacts, one **** in the form of the nephilim jet fighter. Unique for termiantor armies, very powerful (if fragile) bike armies, very medieval fluff, interesting interaction with Chaos Space Marines.
Grey Knights: Space Monks. These guys are the closest you are going to get to the equivalent of the Ogres in Fantasy. Can be done with a very low model count, have access to lots of different psychic abilities and tweaks. Old 5th ed book really showing its age. Most of their old tricks died with the new edition. Unique for Power House troops, a different style of terminator army, psybolts, interesting imperial additions like assassins and what used to be unique inquisitors.
Space Marines (vanilla): Space Romans. there are 7 different factions in here, so I will go with what makes the book unique rather than each faction. Shiny new 6th ed book, well costed to the edition, a great range of units with almost all pulling their weight. Wide range of special characters (although it gets awkward some times), some interesting special items and above all variety.
Space Wolves: Space Werewolves. Almost as badly balanced as the 6th ed chaos book, this book has about 5 units that regularly see the table and about 2 competitive builds in total. 6th really hurt this faction too, as the old 5th ed book is really showing its age. Unique for their power in Drop Pod Assault lists (one of their only competitive builds), psychic nullification (think old dwarfs) and cool werewolf styling.

As for eldar, I have no experience behind the wheel but a fair amount of being on the other end, and they play nicely, although you do need to know what you want from them, they are rather forgiving. Much more than they used to be it has to be said. Their story is fantastic, and their model range is elegant and powerful. Plus, you can use things like the revenant titan, something that broke the last ToS in the UK.

Hope this helps, if you want me to go though anything more in detail, let me know.

ZP

Meraell
28-02-2014, 21:49
Thanks a lot for the solid replies, very good information buds!

I'm going to start with vanilla Marines, just because of models, I can't ignore them, all the power and terminator armours, the helmets, weapons, etc, very cooooool, and the wide variety of chapters seems pretty tasty.

Probably will get some Eldar once I learn the game; they'll start as allies, or who knows, maybe I'll do an entire Eldar force straight away, lol.

With regards,

M.

Grand Master Azrael
01-03-2014, 09:54
Get a Space Marine force covered by Forge World such as the Minotaurs as they aren't too frewuent in gaming clubs. You only need the Space Marine Codex and the free Forge World Chapter Tactics download from their site.

Wolf Lord Balrog
01-03-2014, 10:28
Don't disregard Space Wolves too quickly. Whatever else you might hear, they are awesome, wolf-pelted, howling Space Vikings bringing the Pain Train to the enemies of The Emperor! :)

Camman1984
01-03-2014, 10:36
You should just pick whatever you like, no point saying 'lots of people do them so i wont' as the player base outnumbers the number of available factions by a huge ratio.

Eldar and space marines have the most varied number of play styles to them, for instance at my group we have 1 footdar, 1 seerstar, 2 serpent spams and a wraithwing. For marines we have a couple of imperial fists, some ultras, a raptor, a minotaur, a space shark, a blood angel and a couple of biker lists.

If you do want to be unusual, forgeworld is a good way to go, i love my forgeworld units as they dont appear on the board much.

I guess the biggest choice is what would you enjoy paintingband modelling the most as you will likely spend more time painting than playing at least in the start of collecting.

Paint it Red
01-03-2014, 13:49
From what you say, it sounds like space marines are the best fit. They have a very versatile stat line. Some space marine chapters emphasise different style of play. For this reason there are several space marine rule books. The eldar are the opposite of space marines. Space marines are very reliable, forgiving and flexible. Eldar are fragile, specialists and reward tactical play. They can be frustrating to play as a beginner because a mistake can get all your squads killed. Also if you are too passive you will never get in range to do damage.

Blood Angels are fast. They can take assault marines as troops and the tanks are fast vehicles. The still have access to tactical squads as troops but you won't find all space marine units in the codex; such as thunderfire cannon. The fantasy archetype they follow are vampires. The suffer from a curse called the red thirst which drives them to drink blood.
Dark angels represent a combined army of elite terminators, bikes and regular tactical squads. They are devote warrior monks who fight to repay their sins. Their dark secret is shrouded in mystery but we know that some dark angels fought for chaos and destroyed their homeworld planet.

Space Wolves have a lot of unique units and organisation. They are basically beer drinking, crazy vikings. Their units are called packs and there style of play resembles wolves. You move up and surround the enemy (shoot your weapons) then when he tries to fight back you finish him (counterattack and extra combat weapons gives space wolves lots of attacks when charged, think of good quality spears in fantasy). Space wolves even have units called lone wolves, wolf mounted units and actual wolves!

Then there is the standard marine book which resembles the codex astartes which states the doctrine of space marine chapters, how they should fight, when to use specific tactics/weapons/armour and how the chapter is organised. This book represents the 1000+ chapters of the imperium which follow closely the ideas of Roboute Guilliman (Primarch of the Ultramarines). This is the standard marine force that has 10 companies each company is 100 men etc. However, the Black Templar are included along with some founding chapters to add a bit of flavour.

Grey Knights are not really space marines. They have power armour and a similar statline but they fight very differently. They have unique equipment and some equipment that you would never find on a standard marine (force weapons, stormbolters).

Chaos Marines are marines gone bad. They serve the chaos gods instead of mankind. They get daemon units ... hmm I really not a fan of them.

hobojebus
01-03-2014, 13:56
​spacewolves!!!!!!!

Meraell
02-03-2014, 14:38
Just realised Dark Angels codex is new, and I love the models! Also, don't see them over my region, so quite tempted right now, how are they game-wise? Don't read that much about them, is it a solid book? Any brief explanation of different builds? Any information you want to add about them, will be great and much appreciated.

Cheers,

hobojebus
02-03-2014, 15:30
Where are all the true men? do people really want armies that wear skirt's? not to mention the stupid big hats with wings everywhere.

Where is your love of mead and shield maidens???? where is the love for great big bushy beards?

Am i the only one left that love's killing things then going back to eat piles of roast chicken then quaff horn's of fenrisian ale?

Minsc
02-03-2014, 17:42
Eldar can do TAC, although their is a fairly steep learning curve to them, if you are starting off with no experience you will have more of an advantage in learning them quicker.

This isn't quite true anymore. Eldar used to be very unforgiving and hard to master, but now with battle focus and easy access to cheap S6-S8 spamm, it's very hard to actually fail with them now.

Ofcourse, Space Marines are even less unforgiving, but to call Eldar unforgiving/hard to learn with the current codex, is an exaggeration.

Morrslieb
02-03-2014, 18:25
Just realised Dark Angels codex is new, and I love the models! Also, don't see them over my region, so quite tempted right now, how are they game-wise? Don't read that much about them, is it a solid book? Any brief explanation of different builds? Any information you want to add about them, will be great and much appreciated.

Cheers,

They're doing fairly well around here, not the top dog like Eldar but reliable and flexible with elite bikers and most famous terminators of Imperium, and you can go for whole army of terminators or bikers if you feel like it. Their weakest point is their jetfighter which is not up for a fight with most used fliers like drakes and vendettas, and in lesser essence lack of mobility for their scouts as they do not have option for landspeeder. And as you said, models are awesome :D


Where are all the true men? do people really want armies that wear skirt's? not to mention the stupid big hats with wings everywhere.

Where is your love of mead and shield maidens???? where is the love for great big bushy beards?

Am i the only one left that love's killing things then going back to eat piles of roast chicken then quaff horn's of fenrisian ale?
Some fantasyworld you have there if drinking beer makes you more manly :o
Besides your beloved shield maidens, valkyries be thy name, are often described wielding those stupid big hats with wings :wtf:

hobojebus
02-03-2014, 21:57
Some fantasyworld you have there if drinking beer makes you more manly :o
Besides your beloved shield maidens, valkyries be thy name, are often described wielding those stupid big hats with wings :wtf:

Erm no thats vikings not space wolves, there are no Valkyries in lore and they dont go to Valhalla, as for the ale thats laced with deathworld plants to increase its potency so you have a pretty strong constitution its far more potent than the wine some other chapters drink.

I mean if your going to try and pick apart someones post you should at least have a small clue about the subject they raised, especially when it was clearly written in jest and not meant to be taken even a little seriously.

Paint it Red
02-03-2014, 23:38
This isn't quite true anymore. Eldar used to be very unforgiving and hard to master, but now with battle focus and easy access to cheap S6-S8 spamm, it's very hard to actually fail with them now.

Ofcourse, Space Marines are even less unforgiving, but to call Eldar unforgiving/hard to learn with the current codex, is an exaggeration.

I think ZombieP was trying to make the point that there is a difference between a player picking up eldar as a 2nd/3rd/4th army and someone who is completely new to 40k. Elder are not hard to learn once you understand how to use the main rules in the rulebook. Learning eldar at the same time as the main rules can be frustrating, unforgiving and will require some patience.

Morrslieb
02-03-2014, 23:49
My consensus about Dark Angels vs basic Space Marines:

+ Termies, split fire, elite termies and cyclone missile launcher in th&ss squad)
+ Bikes (without WS chapter tactic)
+ Librarian with divination

- Centurions and other new toys
- Transport options
- Fliers


Erm no thats vikings not space wolves, there are no Valkyries in lore and they dont go to Valhalla, as for the ale thats laced with deathworld plants to increase its potency so you have a pretty strong constitution its far more potent than the wine some other chapters drink.

I mean if your going to try and pick apart someones post you should at least have a small clue about the subject they raised, especially when it was clearly written in jest and not meant to be taken even a little seriously.

I'm well aware of the Space Wolves lore, lot more than seem to believe. Sorry to assume you were even a bit interested in actual Norse mythology (most SW players I know) just because you're into Space Wolves. For generalizing like that, I apologize.

This however contibutes nothing to prove longbearded, beerdrinking space barbarians are better than robed, secretive space monks in anyway.

​EDIT: You're thinking I can take you seriously? I mean look at what you've written in this thread and say that to me again.

Grand Master Azrael
03-03-2014, 05:39
Where are all the true men? do people really want armies that wear skirt's? not to mention the stupid big hats with wings everywhere.

Where is your love of mead and shield maidens???? where is the love for great big bushy beards?

Am i the only one left that love's killing things then going back to eat piles of roast chicken then quaff horn's of fenrisian ale?

Don't diss DA's-they are my favourite army in any game EVER

Zombie P
03-03-2014, 07:50
I think ZombieP was trying to make the point that there is a difference between a player picking up eldar as a 2nd/3rd/4th army and someone who is completely new to 40k. Elder are not hard to learn once you understand how to use the main rules in the rulebook. Learning eldar at the same time as the main rules can be frustrating, unforgiving and will require some patience.

Got it in one, thank you red.

If you think about it, learning any army is more difficult than space marines. They are geared towards forgiving, and ignore a large chunk of the rulebook with ATSKNF so there is a whole section people need to learn (well, learn how to be on the receiving end of) when they pick up another army.

Let me be clear, Eldar are no Dark Eldar. You dont need to study the rule book, and yours and your opponents army books before being able to compete in anything more than a fun game. But there are challenges, you cant just pick up and go with eldar, there does need to be some consideration into how you are going to play. Army list composition is another thing, with eldar there are so many choices and you need to know what you want to achieve, otherwise there will be a mishmash of ill fitting army roles. Space Marines can pretty much fulfill all army roles depending on what you give your tactical squads (at low points level games).

The trade off is the continuation of gaming experience with each race. Space marines are good from beginner up to mid range, and then there is an enourmous jump from mid range to top tier, and pretty much no help inbetween.
With Eldar, although the beginning bar is that little bit higher, there is a steady graph of improvement and learning right up to the top gaming tables at tournaments. At least things will be like this for a little while, untill a new edition comes out and everyone is thrown out of the party again :/

As for DA, see my previous post about each marine faction. DA are cool and get their own improvement sprue now, much cooler and cheaper than buying those metal robed guys...

Hope this helps, ZP

hobojebus
03-03-2014, 14:01
I'm well aware of the Space Wolves lore, lot more than seem to believe. Sorry to assume you were even a bit interested in actual Norse mythology (most SW players I know) just because you're into Space Wolves. For generalizing like that, I apologize.

This however contibutes nothing to prove longbearded, beerdrinking space barbarians are better than robed, secretive space monks in anyway.

​EDIT: You're thinking I can take you seriously? I mean look at what you've written in this thread and say that to me again.

I was using Reductio ad absurdum which should of been very clear to anyone reading the obviously joking post, i wrote nothing that should have been taken to heart.

But excuse me for not QQing about something and committing the horrendous crime of trying to inject a little levity, what a monster i truly am.

Felwether
03-03-2014, 14:59
Don't diss DA's-they are my favourite army in any game EVER

Calm down.

Kingly
03-03-2014, 15:01
I would agree with the guy above,

Space marines with their relative cheap points for what they are, i.e. BS4 and Power Armour, makes them a very capable army as a whole.


Get two tactical squads a Dev Squad and an Assault squad and you can pretty much take on all comers in a casual game.


I haven't yet collected Eldar but DE are my next project and I think you're going to need to be careful, T3 and a 5+ save means one well placed fusillade form an IG squad and your guys will drop like space flies.


I'd say Eldar are a lot more fun due to an obvious weakness and variation in choices, I'd say you will learn more with Eldar saw well...

Morrslieb
03-03-2014, 15:06
Got it in one, thank you red.

If you think about it, learning any army is more difficult than space marines. They are geared towards forgiving, and ignore a large chunk of the rulebook with ATSKNF so there is a whole section people need to learn (well, learn how to be on the receiving end of) when they pick up another army.

Let me be clear, Eldar are no Dark Eldar. You dont need to study the rule book, and yours and your opponents army books before being able to compete in anything more than a fun game. But there are challenges, you cant just pick up and go with eldar, there does need to be some consideration into how you are going to play. Army list composition is another thing, with eldar there are so many choices and you need to know what you want to achieve, otherwise there will be a mishmash of ill fitting army roles. Space Marines can pretty much fulfill all army roles depending on what you give your tactical squads (at low points level games).

The trade off is the continuation of gaming experience with each race. Space marines are good from beginner up to mid range, and then there is an enourmous jump from mid range to top tier, and pretty much no help inbetween.
With Eldar, although the beginning bar is that little bit higher, there is a steady graph of improvement and learning right up to the top gaming tables at tournaments. At least things will be like this for a little while, untill a new edition comes out and everyone is thrown out of the party again :/

As for DA, see my previous post about each marine faction. DA are cool and get their own improvement sprue now, much cooler and cheaper than buying those metal robed guys...

Hope this helps, ZP

Perfect overview. Nothing I could add to that.


I was using Reductio ad absurdum which should of been very clear to anyone reading the obviously joking post, i wrote nothing that should have been taken to heart.

But excuse me for not QQing about something and committing the horrendous crime of trying to inject a little levity, what a monster i truly am.
Fair enough. No hard feelings.

Meraell
04-03-2014, 10:51
Hey buds, great posts with very good advice.

I've been reading quite a lot about DA recently, and hey, gotta lova the DA, awesome fluff, unique Marines, and despite not being a top tier 1 army, they are capable of giving a fight and have some good tricks.

From my experience in WHF I'm not a fan of point-and-click armies/lists, so that makes DA a better choice, last but not least, it's not a popular army!

DV starter box, there we go!

Cheers,

M.

Zombie P
04-03-2014, 11:03
Good to hear you made a decision. I hope I helped. From what I can remember, the DA tactica (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?361950-Tactica-Dark-Angels-(2013-Codex)/page1) is really helpful and firendly, although I havent been over there in a while. Also, handy for all Power Armoured related information and a fantastic community is the Bolter and Chainsword (http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/).

Good Luck.

ZP

Morrslieb
04-03-2014, 11:04
Welcome to the ranks of Unforgiven!

Scribe of Khorne
05-03-2014, 03:46
Eldar is the most point and click army in the game currently. Forget Seer councils, you dont need them. Wave Serpents, Wraith Knights, and whatever the hell you want, will wipe the board clean of most things.

EDIT - But I see you have made your choice, and you have chosen...wisely.

Minsc
05-03-2014, 10:43
Eldar is the most point and click army in the game currently. Forget Seer councils, you dont need them. Wave Serpents, Wraith Knights, and whatever the hell you want, will wipe the board clean of most things.

I would argue that Tau are more point and click than Eldar right now (litterally, they don't even have to move.)

Wayshuba
05-03-2014, 10:55
Thanks a lot for the solid replies, very good information buds!

I'm going to start with vanilla Marines, just because of models, I can't ignore them, all the power and terminator armours, the helmets, weapons, etc, very cooooool, and the wide variety of chapters seems pretty tasty.

Probably will get some Eldar once I learn the game; they'll start as allies, or who knows, maybe I'll do an entire Eldar force straight away, lol.

With regards,

M.

This is the best way to go if you are just starting an army. Both SM and Eldar are fun and have their strengths game wise. But start with the army that most interests you to paint and model. Always the best way to go.