PDA

View Full Version : And to finish off Fupduck's Armylist threads - 2500 Dwarfs



Fupduck
02-03-2014, 02:48
I obviously pick the best armies at the best possible times to post armylists for them, because it's not like warseer has 16.854 2500 point Dwarf armylists submitted in the past two weeks. Of course not.

Anyway, while my two current armies are littered here and there about this forum, I also intend to (if you haven't gotten the clue yet) build a 2500 point Dwarf list as not a, but the upcoming project to empty my wallet and unproductively use my time. We all keeping up?

Heroes
Thane (General) - Master Rune of Gromril, 3x Runes of Warding, Great Weapon @146pts
Let's just explicitly say I'm against 200+ point characters which aren't Lvl 4 wizards ('cos you don't get Lvl 4 wizards at cheaper than 200 points). Character's are good, but, for preferance, I like bodies and bodies are important (I should assume) for dwarves. This guy's plenty tanky, he doesn't hit too badly for a 150 point character, and generally exists not to die. Alternate builds would be RoS, RoI and 3x RoW for less armour but moar wounds, or even RoS, RoF, 3x RoW for an extra attack.

Thane - BSB, Master Rune of Grungi, Sheild @153pts
This guy's kinda wrigged, given that he, essentially, gets 3x RoW but also makes all the stout dwarfish infantry impervious (okay, resilient) to both magic and warmachine fire, two things that dwarf suffer from.

Runesmith - Rune of Spellbreaking, Rune of Stone, Sheild @93pts
This guy's a steaming pile of BS. You pay 93 points, almost as much as other armies pay for a Lvl 2 wizard, just so that you get a dispel scroll. And you have to roll a 6 to get an extra dispel dice, so I might get it once a game. But GW was so courteous as to not give the Tyrion Lannisters of WHFB any realistically better option for Anti-Magic, so I have to take him. So it's like I have to take Lore of Nehekhara in a TK army, because otherwise the army does nothing, even though Lore of Nehekhara is Matt Ward rubbish. Okay, okay, calm your tits Fupduck, for you still get AP on a whole unit, don't you? Well yeah. I do. For whatever 93 minus 25 points is. Period.

Core Units

40x Dwarf Warriors - Musician, Standard Bearer, Sheilds @380pts
39x Dwarf Warriors - Musician, Standard Bearer, Sheilds @371pts - Runesmith here.

Now, first off to say, I'm really against this idea that if it's a Core Unit, then it's by definition bad and should be taken at a minimum. Dwarf Warriors might not be the best in comparison to the other options in the new Dwarf book, but still, taking the minimal units so that you have 625 points of Core is a blatant waste, as you're using 625 points of your army on not doing anything other than meeting compulsory armylist requirements. I mean, seriously, a Dwarf horde can really put on some hurt, and, of course, take some (considering I have Master Rune of Grungi), meaning that unlike conventional tarpits, these guys don't exist to sit there, fapping, for the whole game until a stronger unit slams the flanks (I know whose flanks your mom slammed, BTW*), because, in this army, such a stronger unit I only have 1 of, so these kids need to hold there own. And it's not like I'm using ridiculous amounts of points on Core Units, just enough so that my Core Units can do something useful.


Special Units

28x Hammererers (I know how to start spelling the bloody word, but I don't know how to stop it) - Standard Bearer, Master Rune of Valaya @462pts - Thanes here. Deployed 10x3.

They bring a completely new definition to the Hammer unit on the Hammer & Anvil tactic. Do I really need to explain this unit? They have big whammers. They wham things. Really, really hard. It's like that lecross game or whatever it's call, just instead of gates and balls they hit ankles and balls (of a different sort).

Cannon
Cannon
Cannon

Yo. I like that dragon/giant/cyclops you have there. Those three holes in it look really pretty. They really do. You ever took art classes? Yeah? Hilter took art classes too. And then he raged at his art teacher and started WW2**. Yeah. You going places?

Gyrocopter
Gyrocopter
Gyrocopter

There's something uncreative about taking triples of two different types of units. I don't know why, really. I mean, one's all about kill big things, while the other acts as chaff.


Rare Units
Organ Gun - Rune of Accuracy, Rune of Burning @150pts
Organ Gun - Rune of Accuracy @145pts

Dwarfish technology has to be pretty damn ingenious if they're making guns out of organs. I wonder how much you could sell your kidneys for when you're a dwarf?


Total: 2500 points


Right. Taktics.

The dwarfish armada deploys in the center, with everyone within 6" of the BSB. They take charges like real men. Depending on who I'm playing against, they'll either advance, or wait a turn or two for things to die from the cannons/gyrocopters. Organ Guns sit around the flanks and make sure nothing unamusing gets behind my dwarfish battleline. The cannons shoot monsters so hard they turn into pieces of art, and the gyrocopters are gyrocopters. Not complicated, eh?


* - This joke was thoroughly inappropriate, rude, and ill-timed, and as a result, Fupduck takes no responsibility for it. The fact that it's on his thread is irrelevant.
** - And no, historical facts in this thread are not accurate and are rather written to the good amusement of the author.

keldon33
02-03-2014, 03:41
Its a pretty good list - I would like to make one crucial point about the dwarf army in general however to think about.

This is of course movement. Dwarfs still really can't move and really cant bring the fight to the enemy (strollaz arguably helps, but really doesnt solve this over 6 turns). With that in mind I think your list has commited the necessary points to the range game, but really still lacks mobility. Having just 3x gyros is a bit shy in this department. If you find yourself faced against another shooty army (empire gunline or another dwarf gunline etc) you might find yourself out manevauered by a dwarf list with just 1 more gyro than you, or 1 more gyro and some scout units as well. In the case of the empire they could bring superior firepower in with their great cannons and organ guns, as well as pistoliers, and again win the range game forcing you to march your 3" big blocks sluggishly forward....

With this in mind I think perhaps too many points are then spent on CC block units in this list - and while against most list it will do well - you will find there are better range lists out there that can cause you a real problem...

Ramius4
02-03-2014, 03:46
Not a bad army. My only real critique is that you can't have two Organ Guns each with a single Rune of Accuracy, it's illegal to have the same combination of runes on anything.

Fupduck
02-03-2014, 04:22
Not a bad army. My only real critique is that you can't have two Organ Guns each with a single Rune of Accuracy, it's illegal to have the same combination of runes on anything.

Ah. That's were my 5 points went. The second (or the first, doesn't really matter) Organ Gun has a 5 point rune of cannonball ignition. (See Edit)



This is of course movement. Dwarfs still really can't move and really cant bring the fight to the enemy (strollaz arguably helps, but really doesnt solve this over 6 turns). With that in mind I think your list has commited the necessary points to the range game, but really still lacks mobility. Having just 3x gyros is a bit shy in this department. If you find yourself faced against another shooty army (empire gunline or another dwarf gunline etc) you might find yourself out manevauered by a dwarf list with just 1 more gyro than you, or 1 more gyro and some scout units as well. In the case of the empire they could bring superior firepower in with their great cannons and organ guns, as well as pistoliers, and again win the range game forcing you to march your 3" big blocks sluggishly forward....


I suppose I'll just have to put this list to practice, however the theory is that against other shooting lists the Master Rune of Grungi will help immensly. As far as the Empire is concerned, then Pistoliers die horribly to organ guns, and I ignore 1/3 of the casualties inflicted by cannons (or any shooting for that matter). On my side of things, the general idea would be use my own cannons to take out any Hellblaster Volley Guns (terrifying those things) ASAP while using my Organ guns to nuke cavalry. The thing is that as long as I don't take too many casualties from shooting then the knights will have a hard time trying to run down my infantry blocks, or, at the very worst, get tied up with them.

As a point of interest: what would you drop to find 80 points for another gyro?

keldon33
02-03-2014, 13:05
I might think about dropping one unit as a horde. Maybe do a unit of 25x GW warriors and then even have some points for a scout unit or small shooty unit to help with enemy vanguards/chaff/scouts. Add in an extra gyro that way.... but yeah play test - try to find some opponents who love their gunlines as well and see where your weakness is.

I have a similiar list posted here (scroll to the bottom for the most recent verision):

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?390394-2500-Pt-All-Comers-Competative-Dwarf-List


I think we might find the best version of either list lies somewhere inbetween the two of ours...

Fupduck
03-03-2014, 05:41
I might think about dropping one unit as a horde.


The thing is that, with hordes, I suddenly get a whole rank's worth of attacks, and while that may be completely insignificant for an army like O&G, TK or Skaven, for Dwarfs it makes a real difference. Reducing my front rank and therefore my amount of attacks, I find, doesn't really make a unit pay its points. The only issue I have with hordes is flank charges, which really screw the unit over.

As far as anti-chaff goes, well, that's what organ guns are for. There's very few, if any, >10 man units that aren't a monster/en masse monstrous infantry which can stand against this thing.



I think we might find the best version of either list lies somewhere inbetween the two of ours...


It might... or it mightn't. You are, of course, free to take any ideas from my list (as if you needed permission for that). Other than that, well... :shifty:

Fupduck
03-03-2014, 11:14
BTW, if you want an inbetween of our lists, then I came up with this:

Heroes
Thane - MRoGromil, 3xRoW @146pts
Thane - Shield, BSB, MRoGrungi @153pts
Runesmith - Shield, RoSpellbreaking, RoStone @93pts
Core Units
39x Dwarf Warriors - Shields, Standard + Musician @371pts (BSB, deployed 10x4) : Anvil
23x Dwarf Warriors - GW, FC @260pts (Thane, deployed 7x3 or 6x4) : Hammer
Special Units
23x Hammerers - Standard, MRoValaya @397pts (Runesmith, deployed 7x3 or 6x4) : Hammer
Cannon
Cannon
Cannon
Gyrocopter
Gyrocopter
Gyrocopter
Gyrocopter (and no, I did not get overly enthusiastic with the Ctrl Paste key - there's 4 gyros in this list)
Rare Units
Organ Gun - RoA, RoB @150pts
Organ Gun - RoA @145pts
7x Rangers - Shields @105pts

2500 points Total

Thing is, it still kinda has a preference toward my style of play (less characters moar bodies), but it's the best I could come up with.

keldon33
03-03-2014, 19:43
The thing is that, with hordes, I suddenly get a whole rank's worth of attacks, and while that may be completely insignificant for an army like O&G, TK or Skaven, for Dwarfs it makes a real difference. Reducing my front rank and therefore my amount of attacks, I find, doesn't really make a unit pay its points. The only issue I have with hordes is flank charges, which really screw the unit over.

This is the problem with your army though - you have 3 horde units in a gun line army. The enemy should be drastically reduced in numbers by the time they reach CC with you (if you are running a proper gunline). Therefore you don't need 3 horde units. You need 1 horde unit (maybe 2 if you really want), but your other units should be 5x5 style so that they can maneuver for flank charges to support the main anvil horde. In your current setup you are just big and unwieldy - the enemy will be flanking you...




As far as anti-chaff goes, well, that's what organ guns are for. There's very few, if any, >10 man units that aren't a monster/en masse monstrous infantry which can stand against this thing.


What happens when you are against 5-8 Dark rider units? Or skaven gutter runners? Or War hounds... The organ guns ARE good at killing chaff but they can only shoot 1 unit a turn. With only two organ guns - there is still lots of potential for a MSU army to slip by your flanks. You can't rely on just two organ guns alone.

Fupduck
03-03-2014, 23:52
There is still lots of potential for a MSU army to slip by your flanks.


Thing is that if your playing dwarfs, usually a MSU army will wind up getting a flank charge on you anyway. I do, of course, agree that square blocks of infantry do better against flankers than rectangle blocks of infantry. Then again, it really depends on what charges the flanks. A few Dark Riders, hell, even a 5 man knight unit won't break a dwarfish flank, and then the guys reform to face and kill them. If it's anything largely stronger than that, then having 5 ranks of 5 or 4 ranks of 10 won't make much of a difference - the dawi will die one way or another.

With MSU in mind, however, I do agree that rangers can actually help quite a bit, as Vanguard/March blockers, warmachine/lone character killers... surprising, the potential that this unit.



You can't rely on just two organ guns alone.


I do agree with you that my army lacks anti-chaff, at least, anti-chaff against chaffy armies. Perhaps I'll post an update list later today with these changes in mind.

Grom Wronghand
04-03-2014, 23:17
Fupduck, I like the cut of your jib. Also the army.

Fupduck
05-03-2014, 05:49
I like the cut of your jib.


I thank you kindly Sir.

And, mostly because I can, I also made a shooty+ list for my appeasement:

Heroes
Thane - GW, MRoGromril, 3x RoW @146pts
Thane - GW, BSB, MRoGrungi @156pts
Runesmith - GW, RoSpellbreaking, RoStone @96pts
Core Units
38x Dwarf Warriors - Shields, Standard + Musician @362pts
24x Dwarf Warriors - GWs, Full Command @270pts
Special Units
Cannon
Cannon
Cannon
Grudge Thrower
Grudge Thrower
Gyrocopter
Gyrocopter
Gyrocopter
Gyrocopter (Ctrl Copy is my new best friend).
Rare Units
Organ Gun - Rune of Accuracy @145pts
16x Irondrakes @240pts
8x Rangers - Shields @120pts
8x Rangers - Shields @120pts

Total: 2495 points.

So,
1. Doth I take MRoGrungi or MRoValaya?
2. Grudge Throwers... do we like them or do we not, warseer community?

russellmoo
05-03-2014, 20:26
I still like the grudgethrower for its versatility, meaning you can use it against a monster or a horde of infantry, however, in your list I don't know if two of them are necessary, and I still think a rune of accuracy is worthwhile on this machine, and I am still trying to see if the rune of penetrating is worth the points.

jacob grimes
06-03-2014, 16:47
I thank you kindly Sir.

And, mostly because I can, I also made a shooty+ list for my appeasement:

Heroes
Thane - GW, MRoGromril, 3x RoW @146pts
Thane - GW, BSB, MRoGrungi @156pts
Runesmith - GW, RoSpellbreaking, RoStone @96pts
Core Units
38x Dwarf Warriors - Shields, Standard + Musician @362pts
24x Dwarf Warriors - GWs, Full Command @270pts
Special Units
Cannon
Cannon
Cannon
Grudge Thrower
Grudge Thrower
Gyrocopter
Gyrocopter
Gyrocopter
Gyrocopter (Ctrl Copy is my new best friend).
Rare Units
Organ Gun - Rune of Accuracy @145pts
16x Irondrakes @240pts
8x Rangers - Shields @120pts
8x Rangers - Shields @120pts

Total: 2495 points.

So,
1. Doth I take MRoGrungi or MRoValaya?
2. Grudge Throwers... do we like them or do we not, warseer community?


According to the book i have you can't have more than 1 master rune on the battle field... "No master rune may be used more than once per army, and no more than one master rune can be inscribed on an item. Master runes are so powerful they cannot be combined together on the same item or used together on the same battlefield."

Am I just interpreting it wrong and you can have more than one as long as the bearers arent in the same unit etc etc?

Kalandros
06-03-2014, 20:50
That would throw a wrench of massive proportions on every list.

keldon33
07-03-2014, 02:19
Its a funny ending on that last sentence but if you look at the paragraph as a whole you can understand GW's meaning. What I'm referring to of course is in the first sentence of the paragraph "No master rune may be used more than once per army, and no more than one master rune can be inscribed on an item." GW would not have put this stipulation in the paragraph had they not intended players to take multiple different master runes per army, but with the stipulation that no single master rune shall repeat itself in that army.

Fupduck
07-03-2014, 11:33
Right. If you want to discuss the stuff on how many Master Runes you get, I posted it on the dwarfish tactica in the Warhammer Tactics board.

Anyhow, back to the topic:

I made a bunch of changes (I'd like to call them improvements) to the armylist from the OP (so they're its not an armylist made for my, for the sake of a better word, appeasement):

Heroes
Thane (General) - GW, MRoGromril, 3x RoW @146pts
Thane - Shield, BSB, MRoGrungi @153pts
Runesmith - GW, RoSpellbreaking, RoStone @96pts
Master Engineer (manning Organ Gun)
Master Engineer (manning Organ Gun)
Core Units
39x Dwarf Warriors - Shields, Standard @361pts (10x4 Deployment, BSB) : Anvil
26x Dwarf Warriors - GW, Full Command @290tps (7x4 Deployment, Thane) : Hammer
Special Units
26x Hammerers - Full Command @394pts (7x4 Deployment, RS) : Hammer
Cannon
Cannon
Cannon
Gyrocopter
Gyrocopter
Gyrocopter
Gyrocopter
Rare Units
Organ Gun
Organ Gun

Total: 2500points, smack on target.

To fit in everything I wanted, that sweet sweet MRoValaya had to go, and with all the magics running around, I'm not entirely certain I'd want my list Valayaless. Other than that, the Engineers cost a fupduck amount points for their general efficiency, but then again, the Organ Gun isn't really that efficient without re-rolls on the artillery dice (we have this hate-hate relationship, the artillery dice and me). Other than that, the dwarfy battleplan remains the same. Thoughts?

Tato
07-03-2014, 12:13
I do not want to demonize the Magic Phase nor do I want to advocate a defensive list, but aren't you afraid that 1 Runesmith with a single RoS in a 2500 pts game might just not be enough? Facing a 4lvl wizard is imminent and some cheapo low level wizard sidekicks are very probable too. If waiting for the enemy is your game than those incoming rains of magic pain might hurt too much, Grugni or not. Swap one Master Engineer for a rune on OG and Runesmith with RoS? I'm not sure myself, just thinking aloud.

Fupduck
08-03-2014, 01:23
As I mentioned in the OP, I'm of the persuasion that the Runesmith sucks a specific male body part and that I'd really not take him at all, however because there is almost literally nothing else that provides magic defense in a dwarf army, then I have conformed to armylist standards, and, sigh, taken one. Two, however, I think is redundant. I really don't like paying 96 points for a dwarf champion that has a dispel scroll and AP.

Master Rune of Valaya, however, makes the army dispel +4, meaning I can snuff key enemy spells cast by Lvl 4 Wizards. It also gets rid of those hated Throne of Vines and Purple Sun of JesusPersianName. On the other hand, it is 32 and a half slaves (they amputated him) worth of points which isn't a colourful price for an upgrade like that.

I suppose I just could drop both Engieers and take two RoA and a RoB on the Organ Guns, leaving me with enough points for a MRoValaya, though I don't get those precious Artillery dice re-rolls...

keldon33
08-03-2014, 01:44
I would definitely think about doing that Fup... I really think Valaya is a must in a competitive gunline list. Just too many magic heavy lists out there, need to be dispelling what you can on an equal baseline.


Also, still really think rangers are important for vanguard blocking...

Fupduck
08-03-2014, 02:56
Also, still really think rangers are important for vanguard blocking...


I'm just against the fact that I pay, at a minimum, 70 points just for the fact that I might, in 1 to 3 games, have a sacrificial unit that doesn't achieve anything other than blocking vanguarders. If I want to make them achieve something more, I have to pay more which starts contesting points for Rare selections. As always, since I actually haven't played with this army and my observations based on speculation and game knowledge, I'll just have to take the army to the field and see how much of a problem vanguard is.

Anyway, the list, with modifications, brings:

Heroes
Thane (General) - GW, MRoGromril, 3x RoW @146pts
Thane - Shield, BSB, MRoGrungi @153pts
Runesmith - GW, RoSpellbreaking, RoStone @96pts
Master Engineer (manning Organ Gun)
Master Engineer (manning Organ Gun)
Core Units
39x Dwarf Warriors - Shields, Standard @361pts (10x4 Deployment, BSB) : Anvil
26x Dwarf Warriors - GW, Full Command @290tps (7x4 Deployment, Thane) : Hammer
Special Units
26x Hammerers - Standard, MRoValaya @439pts (7x4 Deployment, RS) : Hammer
Cannon
Cannon
Cannon
Gyrocopter
Gyrocopter
Gyrocopter
Rare Units
Organ Gun
Organ Gun

Total: 2465 points.

So I have 35 points to bang somewhere. I could add command to the Hammerers, or I could stick a rune or two on some of the warmachines. And yes, I would like a 4th gyrocopter, however you can't have everything you want...