PDA

View Full Version : Would you like Loremaster to be more available in Fantasy?



Archon of Death
02-03-2014, 18:06
As the title says, and I'm making this a poll because I can understand numerous opinions on the Loremaster ability. Discuss.

samuel44
02-03-2014, 18:32
The thing I like about magic in Fantasy is that it is risky/not a sure thing. You can get the right spells, make the right casts and it can make a huge difference or you can be unlucky and it fluffs. Managing the risk is one of the best bits of fantasy. Loremaster gives you guaranteed spells and therefore make magic more like combat/shooting, more predictable and reliable.

Ramius4
02-03-2014, 18:32
It really depends on the army. As a general rule, I don't think Loremaster is something that every army should have access to.

Certain special characters are a good fit for it (Manfred, Mazdamundi, Teclis, Balthasar Gelt, Morathi). As far as armies having access through magic items or other means, Chaos (Tzeentch models specifically) Lizardmen, High Elves and perhaps Tomb Kings are about the only ones I think should have access.

Scammel
02-03-2014, 19:09
I do think that every army should have at least one means of getting it, but only really on special characters. It's a little odd, for example, that the Prophet of the Great Maw doesn't know all the spells of... the Great Maw.

Lordcypress
02-03-2014, 19:15
I think only the elite Wizards of the Warhammer world should have access to Loremaster. But to keep the game balanced and fair I think every army should have 1 character in their army that can get Loremaster either through being a special character or taking an arcane item and placing it on a Wizard.

theunwantedbeing
02-03-2014, 19:22
I'de rather it wasn't.
Just because of certain spells being far too good, so anything that makes it easier to get these spells, or worse duplicate them relatively easily is not a good thing.

That said, I'de be happy to see the removal of the rule about getting to choose a spell if you roll one that already exists in the army.
It would allow duplicates more than now of course, but it makes getting the properly good spells a lot trickier.

leopard
02-03-2014, 19:25
Remove it, allow players to pick the spells they want, as part of the list creation (i.e. before rolling for the scenario, before you see the enemies list etc).

Let a mage 'buy' spells using the casting value they want to know the spell at (so a spell with two levels can be bought just at the lower level if you want), you get points depending on the wizards level, so a Lv:4 that wants say dwellers may not have as many spells as a Lv:4 that doesn't.

You can now plan your army around what the mage can do for you, you still get winds etc but no longer have the 'fun'* of getting spells that are essentially pointless, or if you do you need only look in a mirror to see why.


* because random dice rolls = fun!!!

ewar
02-03-2014, 19:33
Remove it, allow players to pick the spells they want, as part of the list creation (i.e. before rolling for the scenario, before you see the enemies list etc).

Let a mage 'buy' spells using the casting value they want to know the spell at (so a spell with two levels can be bought just at the lower level if you want), you get points depending on the wizards level, so a Lv:4 that wants say dwellers may not have as many spells as a Lv:4 that doesn't.

You can now plan your army around what the mage can do for you, you still get winds etc but no longer have the 'fun'* of getting spells that are essentially pointless, or if you do you need only look in a mirror to see why.


* because random dice rolls = fun!!!

This is a horrible idea and would lead to only the 2 or 3 best spells from any given lore selected. A level 4 already has an approximately 85% chance of getting the one spell he wants from the lore, that is good enough. If you want to guarantee spell selection you can already do that, just buy a level 4 and level 2 with the same lore, job done.

OT: No, I don't think there should be many loremasters. I really, really miss it on my slann and we still have access to Loremaster High (which is ok, but I wouldn't call it a competitive choice). I think it would be nice to have an Arcane Item to get +1 spell (not chosen) though I don't know how much it should cost to avoid it being a complete no brainer option (40 points?)

Spiney Norman
02-03-2014, 22:29
This is a horrible idea and would lead to only the 2 or 3 best spells from any given lore selected. A level 4 already has an approximately 85% chance of getting the one spell he wants from the lore, that is good enough. If you want to guarantee spell selection you can already do that, just buy a level 4 and level 2 with the same lore, job done.

OT: No, I don't think there should be many loremasters. I really, really miss it on my slann and we still have access to Loremaster High (which is ok, but I wouldn't call it a competitive choice). I think it would be nice to have an Arcane Item to get +1 spell (not chosen) though I don't know how much it should cost to avoid it being a complete no brainer option (40 points?)

Yeah, being able to choose spells is a really bad idea because the designers just aren't capable of producing a balanced set of spell picks for any of the brb lores.

SpanielBear
02-03-2014, 23:05
Eh, for me having lore master would make each game far too samey. I like the fact that each game is different, and I have to think tactically off the cuff. Take the last two games I played. Game one, I rolled majority short range buff spells. I had to make an effort to keep my wizard near my combat units, while minimising her exposure to danger. Next game, more offensive spells meant I played her in a more mobile fashion, and had to make choices such as; keep her in her unit for safety or move her out to line up the perfect amber spear?


(I moved her out. It was beautiful. She made her points back and then some!)

Spiney Norman
03-03-2014, 00:19
Eh, for me having lore master would make each game far too samey. I like the fact that each game is different, and I have to think tactically off the cuff. Take the last two games I played. Game one, I rolled majority short range buff spells. I had to make an effort to keep my wizard near my combat units, while minimising her exposure to danger. Next game, more offensive spells meant I played her in a more mobile fashion, and had to make choices such as; keep her in her unit for safety or move her out to line up the perfect amber spear?


(I moved her out. It was beautiful. She made her points back and then some!)

I personally think the loremaster rule should be limited to special characters only, it would be nice if there was a lore master sc for most of the race specific lores out there, I've never really been able to understand why Wurrzag doesn't have loremaster (big Waaagh) for example.

Ultimate Life Form
03-03-2014, 01:25
I absolutely love how the Slann, the supposedly best Wizard in the entire Warhammer world, can no longer be a Lore Master while pretty much everyone else can. It pretty much ruined the whole thing for me. Oh yeah, the Slann can be a Lore Master, but only of High Magic, the one single Lore that arguably benefits Lizardmen the least. So just to recap, the Slann, the best Wizard in the entire Warhammer world, can easily master the most difficult Lore of them all, while the supposedly lesser Lores of Battle Magic are beyond his comprehension. Makes perfect sense doesn't it.

IcedCrow
03-03-2014, 02:33
Loremaster lets you bypass random spells. Bypassing random spells means the same spells seen over and over. As such - no leave it a rare thing

The Odor
03-03-2014, 02:53
I think its pretty good as it is.

Wesser
03-03-2014, 07:34
I'm open to more Loremaster as it would chip away at the necessity of the boring ol' Level 4 Wizard.

Let's say it is a BrB Arcane item for 30 points.

Then a lvl 2 with the item will be viable in terms of points compared to a lvl 4 (who gets a Little less benefit from said item). Of course you might say that it'll be one of those items you see in every game, but that depends on the Arcane section in general. Unless you take another wizard you ain't got a dispel scroll for instance...

If it frees up Lord points for some of those Lords on flying monsters we see too few off then it's all good

ewar
03-03-2014, 08:01
I absolutely love how the Slann, the supposedly best Wizard in the entire Warhammer world, can no longer be a Lore Master while pretty much everyone else can. It pretty much ruined the whole thing for me. Oh yeah, the Slann can be a Lore Master, but only of High Magic, the one single Lore that arguably benefits Lizardmen the least. So just to recap, the Slann, the best Wizard in the entire Warhammer world, can easily master the most difficult Lore of them all, while the supposedly lesser Lores of Battle Magic are beyond his comprehension. Makes perfect sense doesn't it.

Who else can? The 8th books have been removing Loremaster left right and centre so that pretty much only special characters have it (no LM for HE outside Teclis, DE outside Morathi I think, TKs via khatep, ogres don't get it at all from memory, DoC lost it too and they used it most etc)

It's sad the slann lost it but he's not alone by a long shot.

mirloor
03-03-2014, 09:37
Less uber spell better the game, so i would opt for something else, block 5 and 6 lvl spells until game reaches certain size. Lets say 5th lvl spell avilable from 2500 points 6thx level from 3500 points. What i noticed in 8th, bigger the game is, less impact spells have on it. So this ridiculous ones should simply be capped like that (removing them would be better but you cant have everything)

Spiney Norman
03-03-2014, 10:17
I absolutely love how the Slann, the supposedly best Wizard in the entire Warhammer world, can no longer be a Lore Master while pretty much everyone else can. It pretty much ruined the whole thing for me. Oh yeah, the Slann can be a Lore Master, but only of High Magic, the one single Lore that arguably benefits Lizardmen the least. So just to recap, the Slann, the best Wizard in the entire Warhammer world, can easily master the most difficult Lore of them all, while the supposedly lesser Lores of Battle Magic are beyond his comprehension. Makes perfect sense doesn't it.

I wouldn't say high magic benefits Lizardmen the 'least', but agreed there are better options out there. I think loremaster high is a fluffy thing for Slann to have access to, but last edition loremaster of any battle magic lore was a bit OP. Its funny how the lore of li changes from uber to merely ok when you don't have the loremaster rule with it.

In fairness spell selection isn't that random these days, if you are running a L4 then you often roll at least one double, which allows you to pick a spell, and there is typically only one duff pick in a each list which can be swapped out for the signature, of course its not an exact science, but neither is it simply 'pot-luck'.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
03-03-2014, 10:53
The only army I think needs expanded access to Loremaster is Tomb Kings, and only because for such a magic-focus army they have a very unfortunate dearth of character options for boosting casting.

Otherwise, I think that the present level of Loremaster is fine. Restricted to a few expensive SCs, each of whom is typically very fragile and very expensive. Makes for an interesting l

Vipoid
03-03-2014, 12:28
I'm in two minds about this.

On the one hand, I wouldn't mind seeing a loremaster a bit more. In fact, I'd like to actually be able to pick which spells each of my wizards has.

On the other hand though, there's the problem that GW can't balance spells to save their lives. Although, even then, I'm not sure how much balance the randomness adds.

So, if magic was more balanced (and toned down in the case of several BRB spells), I'd like too see non-random spell selection and perhaps more loremasters. If magic stays the way it is, then I guess it would be better if loremasters remained few and far between.

IcedCrow
03-03-2014, 12:56
The randomness guarantees that the level 4 isn't toting Pit of Shades or Purple Sun in every game. If they would write a balanced magic system I wouldn't be opposed to picking powers, but after forever with 40k and having to see JAWS in every space wolf army (for example) this system isn't the one for letting you pick your powers across the board.

Vipoid
03-03-2014, 13:04
The randomness guarantees that the level 4 isn't toting Pit of Shades or Purple Sun in every game.

Thing is, I'd rather those spells didn't exist at all.

Really, I see little difference between randoming purple sun and just choosing it.

I certainly don't find myself thinking "Well, that's a stupid spell - but at least my opponent got it randomly."

Spiney Norman
03-03-2014, 14:31
The only army I think needs expanded access to Loremaster is Tomb Kings, and only because for such a magic-focus army they have a very unfortunate dearth of character options for boosting casting.

Otherwise, I think that the present level of Loremaster is fine. Restricted to a few expensive SCs, each of whom is typically very fragile and very expensive. Makes for an interesting l

I think TK loremaster would be balanced if it was limited to the lore of Nehekhara because its such an inherently weak lore it wouldn't make any difference. The only thing TK have that comes close to an uber-spell is the one in the casket.

Liche priests all used to know all the Nehekharan incantations in 6th edition anyway, of course their magic worked somewhat differently back then

Kingly
03-03-2014, 14:51
Magic is a beautiful mix of random that I'm sure a lot of the 'InterNetz Wizurds' Dislike because they cannot depend on it enough to factor it into the Mathshammer element of army selection, nor can you afford to ignore it enough because there is a small chance it can be devestating.

Lore Master makes it too much of a sure thing to me so I say no, keep it more random, as I'm Casual>Tournie.

IcedCrow
03-03-2014, 15:04
Thing is, I'd rather those spells didn't exist at all.

Really, I see little difference between randoming purple sun and just choosing it.

I certainly don't find myself thinking "Well, that's a stupid spell - but at least my opponent got it randomly."

To me its that there's a chance i don't have to deal with it in EVERY game not that at least my opponent got it randomly.

AM1640
03-03-2014, 16:18
I would find it interesting to have the ability to take loremaster on 1 character choice in every army. This could be a special character, or only a lord level caster. It could be made very expensive similar to how you can take a BSB with a magic banner of any points limit but then no other magic items, so maybe you could take Loremaster on a lord level caster but then no other magic items, and maybe only available if the race specific lore is also chosen. If chosen perhaps no other spellcasters are allowed in the army.
I do realize how it could be abused, however I have faced Count Manfred and he didn't completely dominate the table.

Sir_Glonojad
03-03-2014, 16:21
Less uber spell better the game, so i would opt for something else, block 5 and 6 lvl spells until game reaches certain size. Lets say 5th lvl spell avilable from 2500 points 6thx level from 3500 points. What i noticed in 8th, bigger the game is, less impact spells have on it. So this ridiculous ones should simply be capped like that (removing them would be better but you cant have everything)

I actually discussed thos idea with a friend of mine, who'd like to start a small 1000 pt League in his store yet fears that high powered spells (and horde stars) could ruin the experience.

My proposal was:
- limit the horde to 4ppm models and cheaper,
- disallow 5th and 6th spells.

IcedCrow
03-03-2014, 16:33
The anti-death star that we run is max 60 models and max 25% of your army can be put into a single unit without characters and total 50% with characters. So for example in a 1000 point game you couldn't have a unit that by itself exceeded 250 points and with character exceeded 500 points.

Urgat
03-03-2014, 16:37
Loremaster should be restricted to SC imho.

leopard
03-03-2014, 21:24
Yeah, being able to choose spells is a really bad idea because the designers just aren't capable of producing a balanced set of spell picks for any of the brb lores.

Its not a bad idea at all it just needs a set of spells where a lot of the more powerful ones are more situational in terms of usefulness, sort of like the Skaven 13th is useless against cavalry, combine that with spells doing wounds, none of this "remove models from play" rubbish and it would work well. Its not the mechanic thats the problem its the spells here.

There is a lot that the game could be made better through that gets dismissed because GW "could never balance it right", who says they have to? if the BRB lores are naff write your own

leopard
03-03-2014, 21:35
May be worth further clarification, buying spells would work well, even if the lores were not that well balanced, if there were more spells or you could have stuff from more than one lore.

However perhaps get spell #3 you need to have spell #2, and to get that you need spell #1. So yes you can have the #6, probably on a Lv:4, but it may be more useful to have that Lv:4 take the #4 spell from one lore and a couple of #1 spells from others more generally as opposed to being amazing when the #6 is worth having and a lot more restricted otherwise.

Mages are expensive to bring to the table, and with winds as it is (which I'd keep) they can be a lot of points thats not all that reliable. This method also makes the lower level casters a bit more useful, If say a Lv:1 could have say three #1 spells or one and a #2 from the same lore they are a lot more versatile and you can plan round it - the lower level spells with lower casting values are useful when the winds roll is against you and such spells can be more situational.

There is a lot you could do with magic. "Loremaster" is a typical GW fudge, you have a rule that says you select spells at random, so the easy way to make a mage better is to give them a rule that says otherwise. Sort of like how 40k in 5th ended up with most vehicles being given "fast" so they were actually useful.

IcedCrow
03-03-2014, 22:15
IMO they need to get rid of buying spells or rolling spells altogether. You just choose a list and know those spells within the list. Maybe have level caps so that there are spells only wizard lords can use.

If I ruled the world, that's what I would do.

leopard
03-03-2014, 22:21
IMO they need to get rid of buying spells or rolling spells altogether. You just choose a list and know those spells within the list. Maybe have level caps so that there are spells only wizard lords can use.

If I ruled the world, that's what I would do.

As in the list indicates what spells the mage knows, just like it lists what equipment they have (or can buy), so you know spells 1,2,3 and can know spell 4 or spell 5 for example?

I could easily go with that, pretty simple and perhaps avoids certain spells being combined with certain items

IcedCrow
03-03-2014, 22:27
Well basically your wizard would select say the lore of Death and know all six spells in that lore. You'd have to preselect your list before the game but you would know all of the spells on the list.

I'd take it further and have a lesser lore and a greater lore. Level 1s and 2s could select the lesser lore and level 3s and 4s could select either the lesser or greater lore. The greater lore would have more powerful spells or versions of the lesser spells.

I would also do my best to make sure a 200 point wizard lord wasn't the equivalent of a 600 point model on the table with unbalanced spells.

Moopy
04-03-2014, 18:31
I'm of the opinion that not every army should have Loremaster but more could, as long as they pay a premium for it (rules or points-wise).

Quick examples - make it an arcane item so it's competing with dispel scroll and a lot of points, or place a level 3 Wizards restriction on it.

Andy p
04-03-2014, 20:00
Thing is, I'd rather those spells didn't exist at all.

Really, I see little difference between randoming purple sun and just choosing it.

I certainly don't find myself thinking "Well, that's a stupid spell - but at least my opponent got it randomly."

Especially seeing as it is likely to be rolled for a level 4 anyhow....either on a natural 6 or double.

Xerkics
04-03-2014, 21:08
Loremaster is a very boring ability it would make some armies level4s less of auto include if it didn't exist. IMO the game would be more interesting without it.

leopard
04-03-2014, 21:31
Personal preferences aside, does anyone else imagine that at some point GW are going to realise they want to sell spell cards, and a very easy way of doing that is make the spell selection a case of dealing the cards.. seems a very simple way of selling more sets of cards.

IcedCrow
04-03-2014, 21:34
That was 5th edition. The magic set was its own box you had to buy and everything was card based

Vipoid
04-03-2014, 22:04
For those in favour of more loremaster, I have a question:

Would you prefer to see more Loremasters with army-book lores (Lore of High Magic, lore of the Vampires etc.), more Loremasters with BRB lores, or more of both?

Scammel
04-03-2014, 22:31
More of the armybook lores, where fitting. Almost all armybooks have a (somewhat generic) Lord caster of some description, in most case it's entirely appropriate for them to know the entirety of their respective lore and it begs the question of just who is going to have an inside-out knowledge of that particular wind if not them.

Archon of Death
04-03-2014, 23:19
For those in favour of more loremaster, I have a question:

Would you prefer to see more Loremasters with army-book lores (Lore of High Magic, lore of the Vampires etc.), more Loremasters with BRB lores, or more of both?

More of both, but limited to whichever spell lists can be chosen in the unit entry. Either as a purchasable item for or upgrade for a level 4. I like the idea of it being a 100 point magic item as that would keep people from going all crazy with it.

Edit: Scratch that. As a 100 point upgrade on a caster. Not for powergamy reasons, more for "I have this character who has spent his undeath studying Death magic" style. But this would essentially allow certain characters to be ultra bosses, with the drawback of instead of choosing spells you're forced to pay a premium for the other ~3 spells you wouldn't be learning. Honestly for powergamy reasons I'd far rather just take 3 level 1 death casting vampires with the ability to choose their spells, selecting only doom and darkness, then giving them Aura of Dark Majesty and sending in the horde of banshees and the strigoi with the screamsword on a tg and another 2 tg... Yeah, for power game-y options, few things beat being able to pick spells and getting doom and darkness in a screamer list.

At least paying the premium on top of a level 4 should prevent people having multiple Loremasters under like 3k points.