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Lamont Cranston
04-03-2014, 05:54
So I am starting up a new fantasy army and I am trying to decide between Beastmen and Tomb Kings. I know some of you are going to wonder why I would spend all that money on armies that most consider bottom tier, but I like both the model lines and fluff. I am trying to get peoples opinions on which army of the two they think is the most fun? Also I'm pretty sure two Beastmen battalion is a safe first purchase if I go that route, but what about Tomb Kings? Do you really need 16 skeleton horsemen because seems like the opinion is that skeleton horseknights aren't good, so does that mean I'm looking at three units of 5 horse archers? Thanks for reading and responding.

Charistoph
04-03-2014, 06:40
Beastmen actually work well with 2-3 Battalions. Yes, they can actually be that effective for the army.

But as for which is more fun? What is fun to you? Beastmen move quickly and deliver a solid passion to the field with Primal Fury, Primal Frenzy, and Bloodgreed. Armour is a secondary concern over hitting fast, hard, and often. For more information, go to the Herdstone (http://z8.invisionfree.com/herdstone/index.php?).

Tomb Kings are a steady, mostly consistent, army, and heavily reliant on magic. Dwarfs can outmaneuver them, which is saying something. They can also be quite fragile if you don't plan properly. The best analogy I've heard is that playing Tomb Kings is like playing Chess. You have plan several moves ahead, with alternatives for any moves your opponent makes, in order to be effective. Plum the depths of sandy tombs here (http://z4.invisionfree.com/Khemri/index.php?), for more detailed information on the living dead of Khemri.

Skywave
04-03-2014, 07:06
From the little I know and read about Beastmen, it seems that currently they don't have much variety in build and/or units that are effective. You might want to check it out to see if that limited play style will be fun for you, if you can live with not using half the book, and if the other half appeal to you.

For the Tomb Kings, they can take part in most phase of the game if you so desire, so for that they can be flexible. They have what I'd say a regular amount of poor units (since every book get some of these), so nothing special here. Only that the "good" units don't appear that great either. That's because the army is more of a combined arms instead of a few stand alone units that you can throw at the enemy. It take a bit more care and planning to get the most out of them. For the TK battalion, with the horsemen you should start with Horse Archer (build 5 of them per battalion). So with 2 battalions you get 2 scout/vanguard units that can prove to be quite useful for this army. More than that is probably not worth it though, so if you get more you can build them as regular Horsemen, play them naked for a cheap sacrificial unit as needed. Or just keep the bits around as conversion fodder for later.

Spiney Norman
04-03-2014, 08:09
So I am starting up a new fantasy army and I am trying to decide between Beastmen and Tomb Kings. I know some of you are going to wonder why I would spend all that money on armies that most consider bottom tier, but I like both the model lines and fluff. I am trying to get peoples opinions on which army of the two they think is the most fun? Also I'm pretty sure two Beastmen battalion is a safe first purchase if I go that route, but what about Tomb Kings? Do you really need 16 skeleton horsemen because seems like the opinion is that skeleton horseknights aren't good, so does that mean I'm looking at three units of 5 horse archers? Thanks for reading and responding.

When I got my TK Batallion I made up 10 horsemen and 6 horse archers, horsemen aren't useless, having something that can vanguard in an army as movementally challenged as tomb kings certainly has its uses, but its fair to say there are better core choices out there. Their vangard move effectively makes them the fastest unit in our list so shooting them across the table to threaten enemy warmachines is a viable strategy. On the other hand a couple of minimum sized horse archer units is a fine idea too as cheap drops.

I don't know a great deal about beastmen, but if you are interested in tomb kings I would advise you to go for it, the strategies aren't as obvious as for other armies and it will probably take you longer to really get to grips with them, but out of the five armies I have (Lizards, O&G, empire, wood elves, TK) I'd say they are the most tactically rewarding to play.

Malagor
04-03-2014, 10:39
Well I'm obviously bias but I love the beasties. My first "love" and I would never part with them.
But it's not the perfect book, as stated before there is essentially only 2 builds, beastigor build or minotaurs.
You got overall good core tho with Gors packing quite the punch when in horde mode along with a beast banner and awesome chariots, a special section that puts the hurt on most things and lords and heroes when kitted right can be just nasty.
Rare section holds the pride of beastmen model-wise IMO but rule-wise not so much.
When I first started with Beastmen the book suffered badly in the light of powerful 7e books but with the more balanced books of 8e the book is alot more even now.
Beastmen is an army who's tactic is all about charging as soon as possible and get stuck in, supported by chariots and monsters.
It's not for everyone but I enjoy them alot and is always my pick when I want to play an aggresive army.

Echunia
04-03-2014, 12:00
I would probably say that beastmen are more powerful than tomb kings. This down to that they have at least one build (2 or 3 hordes + herdstone mage spam) which is quite powerful. But the army is quite inflexible and rigid.

In Tomb kings on the other hand you won't find the same combat power but the positive is that the army is very interesting. A good thing about being a bad book is that there isn't that much difference between the good and the bad units. This means that there are a lot of options available and loads of builds to try. I have played them for 4 years now and there are still builds I want to build and try but haven't gotten around to yet. So if you're looking for a long term project I would say, choose Tomb kings. If you're looking for a solid 2400 pts army I would say Beastmen.

CommanderCax
04-03-2014, 12:56
I own and play(ed) both armies. If you have some experience with Warhammer and consider yourself as sort of a tactician, take Tomb Kings. If you like to charge headlong towards the enemy to tear them down, take Beastmen. The only thing they have in common is that hey both tend to struggle with enemy armour, though both still have stuff at their disposal to deal with it in a way.

At the moment I almost only play with Tomb Kings, because all other armies I have tend to either bore me (Chaos (Warriors, Daemons, Beastmen)) or give me a headache (Skaven). Beastmen are more a one (or two...) trick pony, while Tomb Kings never run out of viable (though never straight forward kind of strong) variations. Whatever people tell you, all of the options in the Tomb King list are viable (maybe except the swarm), even Horsemen and Ushabti. Beastmen on the other hand have the Cygor and the Grindelake, which are that overcosted, it's not funny anymore. Besides, Tomb Kings have a 8th edition book, Beastmen not.

ewar
04-03-2014, 13:21
Another vote for TKs here, nothing against Beastmen in particular, but as other posters have said, there is a very wide variety of builds you can run with them. In the first year or two of playing them I've barely played the same list twice.

Just be warned that they are not a forgiving army on the tabletop, even a small error against the harder armies and you can suddenly find those lovingly painted units crumbling like a sand castle in a strong breeze. I also think their new models are lovely as well, but that's just me.

forseer of fates
04-03-2014, 13:32
Can the answer be neither, unless you like pain

decker_cky
04-03-2014, 16:13
I own and play(ed) both armies. If you have some experience with Warhammer and consider yourself as sort of a tactician, take Tomb Kings. If you like to charge headlong towards the enemy to tear them down, take Beastmen.

That's a great way to end up with a lopsided record full of losses with beastmen. Tomb Kings are no more tactical than beastmen. Beastmen are limited in lack of variety in some ways, but you have to be flexible with the units they have. They're a list that tends to be built around big hordes, support units and magic, but there's some different tools (minobus or rambull stand out as particularly fun builds).

The biggest thing about beastmen is that almost always, they result in fun games for both you and your opponent.

Gharnukk
04-03-2014, 21:47
Modelwise Beastmen, the old Tomb king models look horrible of you ask me. I have no idea how any of them work on the battlefield.

Eddiethehott
04-03-2014, 22:46
I personally like the TK model range. I find the larger skeletons are easier to work with.

EvanM
05-03-2014, 02:21
Beastmen are probably more unique to play as, they both are hard to play but you dont seem to mind that. I would honestly rather face Beastmen! I play empire and I long for a battle against beastmen, but there are few players out there!
IMO I would rather play a friendly lore based game against a "losing army" just to see what happens.

Also, TK are more likely to get new models and a new book before beastmen so consider that before you buy them.

Charistoph
05-03-2014, 04:08
Also, TK are more likely to get new models and a new book before beastmen so consider that before you buy them.

While I won't argue much on the models, but why would Tomb Kings get a new book before Beastmen? Beastmen are an older book, and have been more consistently updated than Tomb Kings, with only a few more Fantasy books left before next year or next summer.

TheRiverTrollKing
05-03-2014, 04:14
Personally, I'm more of a fan of the "Children of Chaos". The great thing about Beastmen is that you can either have an effective ambushing army, or a large monster heavy army. Also, they are the first battalion box set that I've seen in which you actually save money by buying it. Besides the fact that they need a new AB, they are one of my favorite armies.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
05-03-2014, 17:36
Tomb Kings are an awesome army, but oh man can they be frustrating sometimes. It punishes you brutally for any mistakes you make, and a poorly executed plan will often defeat itself with little to no help from your opponent. They can just sit back and watch your units grind themselves into dust against them because you picked your matchups badly. Worse yet, our spells have super short range so if you're not careful then, again, your models will get isolated and crumble away without the love from your hierophant. A couple of the spells only get better range with a boosted bubble version, which are hideously overcosted. It's as though the entire lore was built with the idea that you'd take a casket and hierotitan, rather than just pricing the damned things properly. Ugh.

That said, I absolutely love this army. When it works it REALLY works, and the look of surprise on your opponents face when they get annihilated by Tomb Kings is just awesome. The casket will either flub (generating power dice for the effort) or eat entire units of expensive stuff, and almost always earns its points back. The army really makes you think about every one of your moves, since it's so hard to make up for a poorly placed unit. It can be really rewarding so long as you stick it out through the rough patches.

As for the battalion box....honestly meh. You could do it or do without it if you choose. I think the TK skeletons are ****, and opted for Wargames Factory skeletons instead. Chariots are great but you only get 3 in the box? Horse archers are absolutely integral to any tomb kings list, so you need at least 2 units of 5 of those. Horsemen have a place in some lists, but they're not very great.

The real decision you have to make is what sort of special units to base your list around. Will you go sphinx spam, and smash through infantry only to be blown away by cannons? Deal with the frustratingly slow and fragile but thoroughly amazing tomb guard? What about the ever-reliable Necroknights? Or the much-maligned, but still halfway decent Ushabti? Your decision: the book leaves it all open to you.

Gharnukk
05-03-2014, 19:59
I use a Tomb kings army with not much magic. I use:

Liche High Priest
Tomb prince X2
Nectrotect
6 Chariots X2
Around 30 Tomb guards
4 Necropolis Knights
Warsphinx
Necrosphinx

Jind_Singh
05-03-2014, 22:39
First of all .......

Models!!! Which army currently has better looking models of the 2 ranges???

Secondly....

Refer to "firstly"



It's as simple as that! You are going to buy, build, and paint these models so you haver o excited about collecting them - both armies are considered lower on the tournament scene - and that's a fair comment - but WHEN you get your head around their play styles you can make them work

Beastmen stand a good chance of getting a new book however

Personally I'm all for the Beasts - because hands down one of the nicest core model ranges in the form of gors and ungors!

Beastigors are amazing models - and good in the game

Razorgors are excellent - and easy to convert from Orc boars - especially if you widen the body by inserting something between the two halves and then adding spines on them

Painting is more fun too as you can do so much with them - where bone is just bone!

Danny76
05-03-2014, 23:02
I'd also perhaps look at what armies you have a,ready, to see if there's one quite removed from your other play styles if you are after something new..

Gorthaur
05-03-2014, 23:32
From a non rules pov, think about it this way. Do you prefer painting model with fur/skin and some metal? Or models with bones and metal and desert bases.

badguyshaveallthefun
06-03-2014, 20:17
At the end of the day it's all about the models. If you don't really like the models then you won't want to paint and eventually you'll most likely end up not even playing with them.

I love the Beastmen models, yes, even the minotaurs (not that paint job though, I like my own) and so I would tell you to go with those. There are other manufacturers out there that put out some great models as well that could easily represent characters in your army (thinking of Mierce, but there are others too) There's something about hordes of half goat men rushing across the table and smashing face that appeals to me. We also have some amazing chaff and warmachine hunters in the form of ungor raiders, razorgors, and harpies.
The book is limited though, all my lists typically look the same, it's only ever the characters that really change, but...oh well.

Plebian
08-03-2014, 04:54
Beastmen. Marching is the best.

palm
17-03-2014, 21:48
Beastmen. Don't like the fact with TKs that your whole army is reliant on one model.

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Yamabushi
18-03-2014, 08:06
Beastmen. Don't like the fact with TKs that your whole army is reliant on one model.

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Eh not really, that's Vampire Counts.

Crumbling isn't really an issue with TK, as the Hierophant's role and the General are separate. Furthermore, most important TK units have high Ld:

You still have the Inspiring Presence bubble of your Prince (Ld 9) or King (Ld 10). Constructs have Ld 8 base and suffer 1 less from crumble, so effectively Ld 9. Even Chariots have Ld 7 while Tomb Guard have Ld 8.

The loss of a Hierophant is the same as losing any other Level 4 Wizard for other armies, in my experience so far.

Kingly
18-03-2014, 19:16
Yes I'd agree, the Lord is quite tasty as well.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
18-03-2014, 19:51
Much more importantly, TK hierophant are rarely throwing more than 2-4 dice at spells so rarely miscast, and are generally hidden safely behind the lines in bunkers where they don't see combat. If you've lost him then the game is generally over anyways.


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palm
18-03-2014, 20:10
I've had a couple of gamed where I have killed the hierophant in the first two turns and the opponent just quits.

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PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
18-03-2014, 20:37
How'd you manage that? I haven't lost my hierophant earlier than turn 5 in a dozen games, and even then it's only after they've crashed through my combat blocks and the game is sunk anyways.


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palm
18-03-2014, 20:49
One was due to final transmogrification. The other purple sun.

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PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
19-03-2014, 18:43
He failed his LoS! against the Sun? That's pretty damned unlucky. As is you getting a 6 on final trans. Though I'll say right now that if my priest bunker ate a purple sun things have probably gone south enough for me to call it too.


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Maoriboy007
19-03-2014, 20:26
YEah, you cant just write off losing your hierophant, your still taking a test every turn that can sap wounds from every unit on the table, small and single units are in deep dip, especially support units. Even War sphinxes and the like cant really afford to lose wounds in this way and worse, potentially the only model that could reverse the damage is probably dead!

Methios
19-03-2014, 21:44
TK heiro death early is end of the game. TK cant take over like VC does. Also unlike VC they cant march AT ALL. So they are easly outmanouverd. The cowboy stories about never losing the heiro before t5 i Always find hard to believe. Any DP of death can just fly up and kill him, Or a greater deamon, or frostphoenixes..or the kdai de destoyer (altho he can just walk.

For looks and fun i would go TK tho. You can participate in every phase of the game.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
19-03-2014, 22:21
I hide my hierophant in a wizard bunker 1" behind 30 tomb guard with halberds and razor standard, so fliers can't land in their front arc and my front arc is pretty damned big. It takes them another turn to position for a flank charge, and if it's a peg character or demon prince they spend two turns eating my champion before they even get to start whittling the unit (challenge on his turn, raise and challenge on my turn, eats the unit his turn, raise and challenge on my turn, rise repeat). I'm also very careful to NEVER place my priests somewhere that my enemy can get into base-contact with them.

Also WoC don't have any shooting to speak of, so if there's fliers threatening my bunker I can usually get away with just jumping my wizards out 1" behind where they can't charge them there either.


...which isn't to say that I've NEVER lost my hierophant against 2-3 charges from fliers. You just get REALLY good at protecting a wizard bunker when you've been playing Tomb Kings for a while :P


And while, yeah, it's a really huge pain to lose your hierophant, the FAR bigger concern than crumbling is losing your magic phase. I've got like 700 points invested in my magic phase, so killing my wizards is a pretty big blow to my army. Which, again, is why I've gotten pretty damned good at protecting them. If they die turn 3 it's because my entire army has been wiped off the table already.

ewar
20-03-2014, 01:28
TK heiro death early is end of the game. TK cant take over like VC does. Also unlike VC they cant march AT ALL. So they are easly outmanouverd. The cowboy stories about never losing the heiro before t5 i Always find hard to believe. Any DP of death can just fly up and kill him, Or a greater deamon, or frostphoenixes..or the kdai de destoyer (altho he can just walk.

For looks and fun i would go TK tho. You can participate in every phase of the game.

So what are you doing with your army while the enemy are just flying heavy hitters straight at your Heiro and winning the game? I've only lost mine early on twice - once to a miscast and another time to the Hell Heart in turn 2. Didn't end the game though, you just have to keep your key units within range of your general. It's not rocket science. Not to say it doesn't hurt but there's nothing worse than someone throwing all of their toys out of the pram right at the start because they've had some bad luck/allowed a heavy hitter to waltz unmolested through their lines.

Folomo
20-03-2014, 13:58
This sounds like the typical comment on how to defeat skaven. "Just go, kill the bunker, and you win".
In practice it is not as easy as it sounds, and most of the time if it happens its because you had already won the game before that.

Ratbeast
22-03-2014, 06:03
BEASTMEN, they should get a new book before tomb kings

quietus1986
22-03-2014, 11:23
Tomb kings. More stratagie les strait for the kill with hard hitting units like the doom bool death star you always se on tornaments.

theunwantedbeing
22-03-2014, 11:46
Tomb Kings get a shooting phase, Beastmen don't.

That in itself opens up so many options when playing and makes it a lot harder for the enemy to dictate the game (which is usually when things stop being interesting).
So I'de say go with Tomb Kings on that basis.

Malagor
22-03-2014, 12:47
Beastmen got a shooting phase, just not a very effective one hence many beastmen players don't bother to bring the ranged units.
Only decent one is a over-priced stone thrower.

zunjinto
22-03-2014, 12:52
You dont need a shooting phase. One reason I went for beastmen to start with

Malagor
22-03-2014, 12:54
Exactly right but just saying, we can still have one if we so choose it. Many of us don't.

palm
22-03-2014, 13:37
How does the magic phase fair for beastmen?

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Malagor
22-03-2014, 14:34
Quite good actually.
maybe not as strong as a dedicated TK magic list but they are certainly not weak in it.

palm
22-03-2014, 14:45
Always wanted to do beastmen. Think I may have to. Is the battalion box for beastmen good value?

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Charistoph
22-03-2014, 19:06
Great value. Even two or three are worth getting.

palm
22-03-2014, 19:16
Is there a main play style you should take with them?

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Malagor
22-03-2014, 19:28
Well gors are almost always equipped with additional hand weapons. Beastigors are only 1 build and when it comes to ungors, well that is best if you choose that. Some people equip them as troops. I however made them as raiders.

Sexiest_hero
22-03-2014, 21:11
Beastmen are a blast to play, LD and lack of armor can be a pain. Tomkings are a blast to play, Movement and lack of armor can be a pain. Both have some of the best magic. Beastmen have sheer power dice and can pull off 12 pd every magic phase if wanted. TK have the casket, one of the most feared units in warhammer. Both are hard to master armies.

Brother Haephestus
23-03-2014, 07:11
There is nothing wrong with Beastmen. In fact, I think it's a pretty solid army. For myself, I don't find them visually pleasing, but they are def a force on the battlefield.

quietus1986
23-03-2014, 09:05
I thing visually more pleasing for what they are. they are ruff beast after all. I thing allot of the older tomb kings lak a bit of flare.

Ymir
24-03-2014, 03:10
Tomb Kings are inded very tactically interesting, as many here have said. But! They're an army where the core (i.e, naked skeletons) is very, very, very easy to paint well enough to look awesome, but the special and rare units have quite a lot of stuff that's still only available as finecast, which is hell to paint. They do look amazing once you're done however! Also: Chariot Units <3