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woggy
05-03-2014, 18:05
Hi. I'm not exactly new to the Warhammer scene, but thus far I've only played 40k. So I'm looking at the Fantasy armies and not at all sure how they play on the battlefield. In terms of visual appearance, I really like the Wood Elf models, especially the dryads, hawk riders, and treemen. I've heard that the Wood Elves are a bit of a...fiddly army to play properly, though, and I would like to at least have a chance to win. The Lizardmen models also look pretty spiffy, especially the giant frog leader-characters. How differently do the two armies play, on the battlefield?

(Over in 40k land, I play mostly Eldar, occasionally Orks and (Salamander) Spess Mehreens.)

NemoSD
05-03-2014, 18:15
Wood Elves I think are actually the most similar in play style to a 40k game. They are mostly skirmishers, so a lot fewer actual blocks to worry about. That is also their downside. You don't have as many good options for when you get stuck into the melee.

Lizards, in my opinion, are in the same arena as Empire, and High Elves. They can do a little bit of everything, and have a nice degree of flexibility. It is easy to get overwhelmed with the choices. Lizards have good magic, ok monsters, and ok MC.

Hopefully someone who knows more about each of those armies comments soon.

In other news, welcome to Fantasy, and be prepared to relearn everything, the rules are just similar enough to confuse you :-p

woggy
05-03-2014, 18:27
So, here is the depths of my ignorance about the rules: blocks? I'm guessing those big square formations of models (which always look so...cluttered...to me; how do you get everyone posed if there's hands and arms and spears all over the place?) If the Wood Elves have less of those, I think I'm in favor.

The major draw of the Lizardmen army, to me, is in the floating frog mages. The gigantic dinosaurs are also fairly cool. :)

NemoSD
05-03-2014, 18:54
Rank and File blocks... most of the time they fit sorta. If you are smart (I am only just now learning this trick) you will put them in a block while basing them to insure they fit together. (I then take a sharpee and write on the bottom rank and file position to quickly know where each goes. Movement trays are wonders as well, and if you get refrigerator magnet material and thin metal for the base of your movement trays, the dudes stay in place pretty well.

Even though WE have a lot of skirmishers, if they get into a melee they still have to move into rank and file blocks so there is no way to get away from it completely.

Minty
05-03-2014, 19:07
In a sense, choosing to play Wood Elves is choosing to play Warhammer on Hard Mode.

No bad thing, and if you like the look of the army, that is enough. you won't be a beginner forever, but you must enjoy your army even after you've learned to play, y'see? No sense picking an 'easy' army that you don't actually like.

Wood elves are a frail, low-strength army who don't wear armour, have at-best middling magic and overpriced troops.

What this means is you have to play perfectly. You can still win, but you have no room for error - make a mistake and it's all over. What this also means is if you learn the game with Wood Elves you will learn it damned well. You'll make mistakes, get punished for them and lean far more and faster than, to chose a non-random example, another beginner playing Chaos Warriors.

And as hard as it is - a good Wood Elf player is a sight to behold. Trying to fight a skilled Wood Elf player is like trying to fight smoke with a hammer.


As for being ignorant of the rules... Nemo is right. Things are just close enough to trip you up.

People always say that Fantasy is the more tactical game. The more cranial, and challenging game.

When I was first expanding into Fantasy from 40k I thought that was plain elitism and swore I'd never say it.

It's actually true though. Of the two, Fantasy is far more the thinkin' man's game.

The most critical skill in 40k is target prioritisation. Presented with two or more enemy units, you have only to pick the best target and shoot it/assault it.

The most critical skill in Fantasy is the ability to predict the future. You have to prognosticate the enemy's actions turns ahead, and understand the whims of chance.

That's not to say both games don't use both skills, but only which are more valuable.

For my money, Fantasy is simply a far better, more rewarding and more fun game. I have zero interest in getting my 40k army back out of the loft.

SteveW
05-03-2014, 19:22
Wood elves as Minty said are playing warhammer on hard mode.

Lizardmen however can do everything that the wood elves can do(skirmish avoidance shooty armies) better than the Wood Elves and can do every other style of play as well. They have the best magic and have some great monsters. They also take "jack of all trades" to a new level as their even their monsters have multiple roles.

SpanielBear
05-03-2014, 19:34
I started Wood Elves three months ago, also moving over from 40k. I can honestly say I love it. Minty and Nemo are right, in fantasy you need to think ahead more, remember your charge arcs (units can only charge and shoot at things in the direction they are facing), and try to minimise how much a bad dice roll will affect your game.

As for Wood Elves, yes they are hard to play well, yes they are like a glass cannon made of Kleenex, but there is nothing quite as satisfying as seeing your army out-maneauver, out-fight and out-shoot the heavy hitters when all goes to plan.

More than any other faction, learn your rule-book. A lot of the niftiest tricks in the Wood Elf arsenal come from a synergy of abilities and units, that aren't always immediately evident.

Finally, if you haven't already I recommend checking out Asrai.org, the Wood Elf specific forum. It's very welcoming, friendly, and full of good advice.

If you choose us, welcome to the Kindreds. If you choose Lizardmen, damn your eyes you overgrown newt, and just remember that the jungle is a forest too...

;)

woggy
05-03-2014, 19:55
Wow. Thanks for that, Minty. Obviously I won't be a good player for a while, if ever, but that's some damn poetic imagery. 'Smoke with a hammer', especially.

I think that the Wood Elves sound more and more appealing (maybe I'm just a glutton for a steep learning curve!) Is the Battleforce box a reasonable buy, or am I better off cherrypicking units that will actually be useful?

SuperHappyTime
05-03-2014, 20:03
On the upside for Wood Elves, asrai.org has one of the best 500 points to 2500 points army building guides among warhammer army sites here: http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=25574

I think only the high elves have a better one

NemoSD
05-03-2014, 20:05
The Fantasy Battalions all tend to be really good starting points. I would go with one of those, get a feel for the force (You can normally make a 750-1000 point of one of those boxs) and then expand from there.

SpanielBear
05-03-2014, 20:12
Seconded, battle force is excellent, I've managed to get a decent-if-fragile 1,500 point force from that kit with a couple of kit bashes. Only other purchase I'd recommend for a starter army would be an eagle. Other places may do cheaper ones, but if you go with GW The Lord of the Rings eagles are fantastic. Them and the battle-force and you're set, IMHO.

woggy
05-03-2014, 20:24
Thanks all for the suggestions. I'll definitely grab the battleforce, then, and probably an eagle.

SpanielBear
05-03-2014, 21:27
Huzzah! Make sure to let us know how it goes, and post pics of the army.

Minty
05-03-2014, 23:10
Wow. Thanks for that, Minty. Obviously I won't be a good player for a while, if ever, but that's some damn poetic imagery. 'Smoke with a hammer', especially.

One tries...

I stand by what I said about being a good player, though. Some armies are just so more forgiving of blunders than others, and that really can be abad thing for the player in the long run. Wood Elves, you will learn from your mistakes.


Let's see, what else?

No one seems to have mentioned it yet, but word on the street is that the Wood Elf book is next in line for release. Perhaps May, perhaps summer. That will solve a lot of the current difficulty. Right now the army is universaly overcosted. That will change.

What wont change is the core weaknesses. They will still be unarmoured toughness three, strength three Elves who melt if the enemy ever touch them.


I'd still recomend the army boxset. Nothing in there will be rendered useless by the new book. In fact, the reverse, I expect all three units to become much better than they are now.

woggy
05-03-2014, 23:15
Ah, okay, so much the same position I found myself in with my 40k army, then. Hopefully.

I will definitely post some pictures; another part of the reason for this is that I want to paint some more stuff and my entire Eldar army is painted (gasp).

Gharnukk
06-03-2014, 02:44
Rumours hint about a Wood elf book soon so I would start then :) I prefer Lizardmen myself, because I love everything about big Dinosaurs ;) I have a friend who play Wood elves and I can say that they are really fun to play against.

NemoSD
06-03-2014, 03:45
Woggy what area are ya in? Some of us would be more the willing to meet up with ya and give you some practice games, assuming you are in local areas!

(I could almost start a Lizardmen army, but I know the second I start that, my Eldar Exodite project begins in earnest :-p)

woggy
06-03-2014, 05:32
Nemo: I'm in Idaho, Boise area.

NemoSD
06-03-2014, 07:39
Nemo: I'm in Idaho, Boise area.

Damn, was hoping you'd be a SoCal guy... :-p

Lastavenger
06-03-2014, 08:53
I'd still recomend the army boxset. Nothing in there will be rendered useless by the new book. In fact, the reverse, I expect all three units to become much better than they are now.For the same reason I started painting 3 units of 5 glade riders. They can't become worse than what they are currently. With point reduction, ASF and maybe S4 shot at close range they can become really useful.

Minty
06-03-2014, 09:02
Acting on much the same set of assumptions - I'm painting 3 units of 5 Glade Riders myself.

That said... I don't consider them to be quite as bad as people think right now. Fast Cavalry is as good as you make it.

woggy
06-03-2014, 14:10
So, I swung by the local hobby shop last night to buy some stuff and...it looks like GW is no longer offering the Wood Elves battalion box? We couldn't find it on their website, at least. Since I wasn't sure what all was actually IN the battalion box to build from, I went with some basics: two boxes of Glade Guard, a Spellweaver w/ Staff, a Standard Bearer, and a Great Eagle. They're on special order, unfortunately, since the store's selection of Wood Elf stuff on the shelves was...limited.

I'm aiming for about 1,000pt to start learning with; looks like maybe a box or two of Dryads and a trio of Treekin would be a decent rounding-out?

theshoveller
06-03-2014, 14:42
The format of battalion boxes has changed, so it wouldn't be surprising if they'd simply run out of Wood Elf boxes and decided not to produce any more until they can relaunch in the new box. I would assume they'd sit on doing that until they produce a new book.

Minty
06-03-2014, 15:14
GW no longer makes new Battalion boxes - though it would shock me if you cannot find a couple in shops here and there. Wood Elves aren't exactly a hot-selling army right now.

Do you play in a GW shop?

The reason I ask is that, if you come from a 40k background you mightn't realise the wealth of non-GW figures available for Fantasy armies.

Only GW can make a Space Marine, but the world and his brother make Elf minis. If you don't play in a Games Workshop store then you can use a much, much wider range of stuff. I don't think most people would dispute that GW makes the best plastic kits in the business, but a little variety is nice, and is often far cheaper too.

http://www.reapermini.com/OnlineStore/wood%20elf

http://www.ragingheroes.com/collections/complete-collection/products/the-tree-warriors

http://www.mierce-miniatures.com/index.php?act=pro&pre=mrm_blg_bnb_mon_008_000

http://www.avatars-of-war.com/eng/web/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=81&Itemid=116

And so on...

woggy
06-03-2014, 16:12
I don't play at a GW store, no; local shop that covers gaming of all sorts. Hadn't considered the possibility of non-GW models - almost too much variety of choice, plus then there are considerations of... unified theme? (Are the bases a standard size?)

(As for what they had on the shelves, well. Two boxes of Glade Guard and a box of Glade Riders. Bit underwhelming compared to the Dwarf section.)

Minty
06-03-2014, 17:12
Bases... Yes.

All Elves go on 20mm square bases. Dryads, 25mm. Treekin, 40mm (I think Eagles are 40mm too. Maybe 50?). Treemen go on 50mm. Cavalry goes on 25x50 rectangular bases.

Mostly bases aren't a problem because a lot of third-party manufacturers realise their models are going to be used for the warhams and supply the right sized base. If not, just buy a bag mixed square bases of ebay.

For the most part, theme is the same. A lot of manufacturers make models designed to fit into Warhammer armies, and if you don't think one fits, no-one can make you buy it.

Wood Elves are a pretty individual, eclectic lot at the best of times though. I'd say only Bretonnia has a stronger excuse for variation in looks within an army.

woggy
06-03-2014, 17:29
Okay, cool! :D I'll definitely consider that, especially for the Dryads (for some reason, the GW models don't /quite/ meet the picture in my head.)

The Asrai army-building thing suggests not using mage until around 1250; is there a rules-based reason why I wouldn't be able to take a Spellweaver at 1000?

Minty
06-03-2014, 17:54
A lot of people on Asrai.org are legitimately crazy.

You can only spend 25% or less of your points on Lord-level characters and 25% or less on Hero-level characters.

As a general rule of thumb, you always take the most powerful wizard you can in any points bracket that allows you to take a wizard at all.*

Wood elves are a special case in that Spellsingers (Hero-level Wizards) may only use the magic Lore of Athel Loren, which is a very weak Lore so you might just want to avoid them.

You can roll up a Spellweaver (Lord-level Wizard) tight enough to cram into a 860 point game, and therefore a sane person always will. I cannot conceive of any reason why I'd not have a Level 4 Life Wizard in a 1'000 point game.

I'm not even a competitive player, but given how weak the army is generally, leaving your Spellweaver behind is just loopy.


*Running magic light is possible, but it's the sort of thing one does for specific reasons, special tactics and plans which, as a learner, you probably haven't developed yet.

woggy
06-03-2014, 18:13
*snorts* People on the internet, yes? Sanity is an optional extra.

I will definitely plan for a Spellweaver, then. Because magic (and also a pretty cool model.)

Jind_Singh
06-03-2014, 19:35
Go for models over army ANYDAY!

All armies are fine to play with but some hit a natural ceiling -

Tomb Kings - very much a viable army but LIMTED to the unit selection and tactics
Beastmen - same as above
Wood elves - same as above

And then

Bretonains - same as above BUT kick some serious butt when done properly
Ogre kingdoms - same as above BUT kick serious butt while doing so

Either army is going to be a great choice between Wood Elves and Lizardmen so ask yourself:

1) models - you have to buy, build, and then paint the models, so which range excites you the most? Because 110% this is the only answer that matters

An there you go!

As for gameplay both armies are good, added bonus of Wood Elves is most likely they are next in line for a new army book - and after what we saw on both Dark and High Elves don't be surprised if the tree hippies start to rock

Current wood elves are not that close to 40k anymore - that's an old image of them - because the successful lists are those that hit hard in combat with dryads, treekin, and tree men

All shooting lists are in also with all mounted glade riders just galloping around all over the place!

SpanielBear
06-03-2014, 21:21
That's a great shame if they have stopped production of the battle force. If you can bear waiting, I'd give it a little time to see if a new release appears and bears fruit.

Campaigner
07-03-2014, 20:50
Nice to see more people up Fantasy. Can't be too many of us :)

Where do people get the Wood Elf rumor from? The guys in my local store say the same as you guys but the rumorsection here have nothing about Wood Elves....

SteveW
08-03-2014, 03:07
Nice to see more people up Fantasy. Can't be too many of us :)

Where do people get the Wood Elf rumor from? The guys in my local store say the same as you guys but the rumorsection here have nothing about Wood Elves....
Its been around for a while. The rumor is Mr. Ward wrote all three elf books together and the release schedule was posted before the high elf book released and was accurate to date.

woggy
20-03-2014, 16:19
First round of Asrai models is here (yay special orders). Since the battalion box is apparently not a thing, I'm kinda playing it by ear. Two boxes of Glade Guard, two boxes of Dryads, a Spellweaver, a Standard Bearer, and an Eagle.

I probably won't be picking up more for a bit, but any suggestions on places to expand? I expect to be getting at least a few Tree Kin and a second Eagle, but otherwise not sure.

Minty
20-03-2014, 16:56
D'you think you have enough to play with and paint for a couple of months?

I ask because, s'far as anyone knows he new Wood Elf Army Book is still due in May. It'd seem tempting fate to buy more models at this stage of the game.

Those models you already have are likely only going to get better with a new book (and even if they did get worse, you sort of have to use them anyway...) - but you know GW. With a new book, some things get better, some get worse. Plus there will always be a shiny new option or two.

That said, if you insist on expanding before the new book, I'd recommend a Forest Dragon or Treeman. Why? If you're playing Fantasy, you really owe it to yourself to have a monster.

Do not use GW's Treeman, though. It's just a tiny, horrible looking twig compared to some of the glorious third-party stuff out there.

woggy
20-03-2014, 17:32
It should definitely be enough to paint with until we see what's going on with the rumours. I'm still not sure how active the local Fantasy community is, so actually playing might be a bit tricky. If I've understood the points values correctly, I think I have enough here for a thousand-point list, barely.

SpanielBear
20-03-2014, 22:05
Don't forget your free wood! I definitely would wait for a couple of months to see what's coming, but that said looking at what you have, and depending on how fast you paint/get to play, maybe add some glade riders. Fast cavalry is very useful, it would bulk out your list without needing to go too character heavy, and with a little kit-bashing you could make them wild riders, which are very tasty indeed.

woggy
20-03-2014, 22:24
I had completely forgotten about the free forest bit; not sure how to go about modelling it, though. I've yet to do any terrain work.

As for the Wild Riders... cavalry just feel weird, I'm not sure why. I know I'm not entirely familiar with battle flow yet, but what's their purpose on the battlefield? I get the impression they're light, squishy, and don't necessarily pack enough of a punch to be able to deal with things on their own.

SpanielBear
20-03-2014, 23:03
You are right about not being able to deal with things on their own, but in truth that's the case with nearly every wood elf unit. What cavalry can do, especially fast cavalry, is manoeuvre. You can get behind enemy infantry, hunt down units of archers and war machines, or charge bigger units in the rear or flank for combat bonuses.
With Wood Elves, it helps to think not in terms of what a unit does on its own, but what it can achieve if combined with other units.

Take the example of a unit of wild riders, a unit of dryads, and a level 4 Mage with lore of beasts. On the face of it, neither combat unit has any ranks, and their best save is a five up. The Mage has 2 direct damage spells, tops.

However, lets say you position your dryads in a forest, forcing an opponent to charge them or present his flank. Now they are stubborn, and can hold that unit in place. With the wild riders mobility, in your turn you can charge that unit in the rear. Your Mage can buff either unit with spells like wyssans wild form, giving them extra strength and toughness. Say she casts that on a unit of wild riders, when they charge a unit of five is doing five or six strength 6 attacks. Add to that the dryads ripping things to shreds, and given your high initiative, chances are you may kill enough to avoid taking too many losses in return. Enemy unit breaks.

The term 'glass cannon' has never been more appropriate for any army other than Wood Elves, but when we hit, we hit hard.

Minty
20-03-2014, 23:33
So in my last game I'm fighting Beastmen and the foul enemy has brought a unit of Chaos Spawn. There's nothing in my army that can take them in a straight fight and we both know it. We also both know that the Random Movement rule makes it hard for me to escape them with my fabled Wood Elf movement because Random Movement units can charge in any direction.

Everything else in the Beastman army I can shoot down or avoid, but those Spawn could eat me alive.

Good thing I have my Glade Riders!

Y'see, Random Movement allows Chaos Spawn to charge in any direction, BUT, to do that they must pivot in place. I move my Glade Riders to stand exactly one inch to the side of the Spawn unit. Units may not be closer than one inch, and Fantasy uses square bases. He cannot pivot without coming within one inch of my Riders. All he can do is move directly foreward. Next turn I follow and stop one inch away. He still cannot pivot, and con only move straight foreward again.

My Glade riders couldn't remotely have faught the Spawn. Nothing I had could. But thanks to my Riders, nothing needed to fight the Spawn.

That's just one example.

Fast Cavalry is worth its weight in gold, not for its combat prowess, but for the sheer utility it brings the canny general.

Fantasy - as I said before - is the thinking man's game, and nothing epitomises that better than well-played fast cav.

woggy
21-03-2014, 00:04
That is...wow. I'm not sure I have words to adequately convey my awe at that scenario.

Kingly
21-03-2014, 00:14
Minty that is simply disgusting! Brilliant, but disgusting! :)

Minty
21-03-2014, 09:13
The, uh... The point is just that you can't judge a unit (or even an army) purely by its combat stats.

jtrowell
21-03-2014, 09:54
Hum, I'm not sure that it's exactly how it's work : from memory random movement are an exception to the usual "no closest than 1 inch" rule, as they can contact and then count as a charge.
(note that I cannot check the rules now, so apologies if I missed a FAQ or a specific rule entry that would make this work)

From what I understand however what the pivot cannot do is make you move over the base of another model. That's why this tactic works well against units with rectangular base like the skaven abomination or the steam tank, because if you are on their flank, they cannot pivot without overlapping your unit. Against a unit of several monstruous beast or infantry it should work too, but a lone chaos spawn would probably be able to slightly pivot and then contact the edge of your unit, counting as a charge.

Anyway, you still have several ways to manage chaos spawn :
- Glade guards bows are S4 at close range, so will wound on 5+ and the spawn will have no armor, so a small unit of 10 glade guards should be able to inflict on average something like 2 wound on the spawn. This will not kill it, but combined with 1 or 2 more wound from a previous shooting phase at longer range, reaction fire, the fact that you should it first in melee (you might need 6s to wound, but this shouls still allow you a good chance of doing at least one wound) might just be what you need to kill it. You don't have to eliminate all your opponent units at range to win, just kill the most dangerous ones, and hope that the remaining ones are weakened enough to be killed when they reach close combat.

And of course, Dryads Treekins and Treemen are perfectly capable to manage a chaos spawn in melee if needed

Ero-Senin
21-03-2014, 10:33
The problem is that Chaos spawn are not a particularily scary unit and if we (wood elves) struggle with them it just goes to show how much we struggle in general. I would be more concerned by things like flying daemon princes etc. TBH I struggle to kill anything with toughness of 4 or more and any kind of armour with wood elf shooting = sad case of affairs

SpanielBear
21-03-2014, 10:40
The problem is that Chaos spawn are not a particularily scary unit and if we (wood elves) struggle with them it just goes to show how much we struggle in general. I would be more concerned by things like flying daemon princes etc. TBH I struggle to kill anything with toughness of 4 or more and any kind of armour with wood elf shooting = sad case of affairs

I have to agree, after many games played against Warriors of chaos, big blocks of armoured legions are tough.

However, we have lots of access to strength 4, we can manoeuvre to avoid combat until we are ready, multi-charges still help, and never underestimate the power of a fully operational death-tree.

My personal trouble shooting unit is a squad of five Wild Riders with the Razor Banner and Wyssans Wild Form, if I can. Even chaos knights crumble against this unit if you can get a flank charge.

Ero-Senin
21-03-2014, 11:39
I have to agree, after many games played against Warriors of chaos, big blocks of armoured legions are tough.

However, we have lots of access to strength 4, we can manoeuvre to avoid combat until we are ready, multi-charges still help, and never underestimate the power of a fully operational death-tree.

My personal trouble shooting unit is a squad of five Wild Riders with the Razor Banner and Wyssans Wild Form, if I can. Even chaos knights crumble against this unit if you can get a flank charge.

Death tree would be good if it wasn't really, really easily killed with lore of metal sig spell.

Wild riders are ok (really strange special rules though) but for their points they should be a lot better.

SpanielBear
21-03-2014, 11:46
Death tree would be good if it wasn't really, really easily killed with lore of metal sig spell.

Wild riders are ok (really strange special rules though) but for their points they should be a lot better.

Never said they were perfect, just that they can work.

I agree that an update would be exceedingly welcome. Even just ASF would be an immense buff for us!

Minty
21-03-2014, 13:26
Hum, I'm not sure that it's exactly how it's work : from memory random movement are an exception to the usual "no closest than 1 inch" rule, as they can contact and then count as a charge.
(note that I cannot check the rules now, so apologies if I missed a FAQ or a specific rule entry that would make this work)

Remember, although Random Mover charges happen without a declaration and in the Compulsory Movement sub-Phase, they must still meet the usual requirements of a legal charge. I.e., facings and arcs (and you measure any potential charges before moving the unit). If my Riders are on their left, they cannot get me in their front arc without pivoting, and cannot pivot without reducing the distance to less than 1 inch.

SpanielBear
21-03-2014, 15:51
Remember, although Random Mover charges happen without a declaration and in the Compulsory Movement sub-Phase, they must still meet the usual requirements of a legal charge. I.e., facings and arcs (and you measure any potential charges before moving the unit). If my Riders are on their left, they cannot get me in their front arc without pivoting, and cannot pivot without reducing the distance to less than 1 inch.

Not to mention those Glade Riders could be trying their luck with 5 longbow shots each turn. May not do anything, but if they're there...

SteveW
22-03-2014, 01:57
I ran an all glade rider army and you can do a lot of damage with those s 3 bow shots.

Sent from my lumina 925 using ninja's

Ratbeast
22-03-2014, 07:30
That fantasy box isn't that heavy, just use 2 hands and bend up the knees to prevent back injuries

quietus1986
25-03-2014, 17:24
playing wood elves is like playing a fluff army at tournaments. realy hard to win but its so much better :D. I mean it there's no feeling beter than winning from a army you should lose from. ( try playing against a vampire count army with no caster above lvl 2 it will prob be a rader fair game)

SpanielBear
26-03-2014, 00:34
playing wood elves is like playing a fluff army at tournaments. realy hard to win but its so much better :D. I mean it there's no feeling beter than winning from a army you should lose from. ( try playing against a vampire count army with no caster above lvl 2 it will prob be a rader fair game)

Or worse, for the vampire count in my experience. Nothing like seeing the blood drain from an opponents face; "So these are my ethereal troops. Now which of your units do magic damage?"
"All of them."

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
26-03-2014, 02:09
Or worse, for the vampire count in my experience. Nothing like seeing the blood drain from an opponents face; "So these are my ethereal troops. Now which of your units do magic damage?"
"All of them."

"So this is my Banner of the World Dragon death star. Now which of your units do magic damage."
"....all of them...."

SpanielBear
26-03-2014, 02:31
"So this is my Banner of the World Dragon death star. Now which of your units do magic damage."
"....all of them...."

Win some, lose some :)

NemoSD
26-03-2014, 03:54
I use Banner of the World Dragon frequently... I've never faced an opponent, including demons, who could not get around it, find a way to murder the living crap out of the unit with it... not sure it deserves all the hate it gets.

SteveW
26-03-2014, 05:42
That's crazy. I've used it to wrek hobbies and had love it.

Sent from my lumina 925 using ninja's

Ratbeast
26-03-2014, 07:36
I use Banner of the World Dragon frequently... I've never faced an opponent, including demons, who could not get around it, find a way to murder the living crap out of the unit with it... not sure it deserves all the hate it gets.

Other then ignore the unit with them, how does deamons deal with the unit with it? THEY CANT

NemoSD
26-03-2014, 08:08
Other then ignore the unit with them, how does deamons deal with the unit with it? THEY CANT

Recently, a guy threw a bunch of nurgle dudes at it, with more ranks, then flanked me, with a chariot on one side, and another unit some demon on the other, when he broke my dudes, banner was gone.

You don't have to kill to win in Fantasy...

Ratbeast
26-03-2014, 10:25
Did the HE deploy in spearmen or archers, any decent HE player wouldn't get owned like that

NemoSD
26-03-2014, 16:09
Did the HE deploy in spearmen or archers, any decent HE player wouldn't get owned like that

I am decent, and I did not see the trap until it was to late. Overall, I did win the game, but the banner had nothing to do with it. My swordmasters who could not fail an armor roll that game had everything to do with the win. However I had the banner on Phoenix Guard, with Allarielle, and a BSB with the Alarielle's banner. According to the internet, that unit should never of been defeated. It was. The flanking unit was flying, the chariot I had not noticed, and then bam a long shot charge by the nurgles. (They needed 11 or higher on the roll to make it.) it was over.

That is the problem with theory crafting, and actually playing the game. That unit is a very powerful unit, and has been used to great success. However, its immortality is only on paper. Once tactics and dice hit it, it is vulnerable.

CountUlrich
26-03-2014, 17:24
I am decent, and I did not see the trap until it was to late. Overall, I did win the game, but the banner had nothing to do with it. My swordmasters who could not fail an armor roll that game had everything to do with the win. However I had the banner on Phoenix Guard, with Allarielle, and a BSB with the Alarielle's banner. According to the internet, that unit should never of been defeated. It was. The flanking unit was flying, the chariot I had not noticed, and then bam a long shot charge by the nurgles. (They needed 11 or higher on the roll to make it.) it was over.

That is the problem with theory crafting, and actually playing the game. That unit is a very powerful unit, and has been used to great success. However, its immortality is only on paper. Once tactics and dice hit it, it is vulnerable.

Yes, you are so right, it is so very vulnerable. All he had to do was jedi mind trick you to miss seeing the chariot, tactically (and oh so repeatably) roll 11+ on a charge, get some damn good luck in the die rolls of the combat, and BOOM he was able to beat you. Smh. BotWD is so obviously broken it's a frickin joke ...

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Timathius
26-03-2014, 17:36
Recently, a guy threw a bunch of nurgle dudes at it, with more ranks, then flanked me, with a chariot on one side, and another unit some demon on the other, when he broke my dudes, banner was gone.

You don't have to kill to win in Fantasy...

This could be sig worthy...

Ratbeast
26-03-2014, 19:33
I am decent, and I did not see the trap until it was to late. Overall, I did win the game, but the banner had nothing to do with it. My swordmasters who could not fail an armor roll that game had everything to do with the win. However I had the banner on Phoenix Guard, with Allarielle, and a BSB with the Alarielle's banner. According to the internet, that unit should never of been defeated. It was. The flanking unit was flying, the chariot I had not noticed, and then bam a long shot charge by the nurgles. (They needed 11 or higher on the roll to make it.) it was over.

That is the problem with theory crafting, and actually playing the game. That unit is a very powerful unit, and has been used to great success. However, its immortality is only on paper. Once tactics and dice hit it, it is vulnerable.

Vulnerable my butt!!!! sounds more like extreme luck!!!!!!!

NemoSD
26-03-2014, 19:40
Vulnerable my butt!!!! sounds more like extreme luck!!!!!!!

Calculated gamble. The flying things and chariot were not noticed because I was not in fear of a charge. Had he moved closer, making his charge more likely, he would of triggered my attention, by holding them back, and diverting my attention to another part of board, he was able to make me believe the chariot was going to charge something else.

You call it luck, but this game is filled with moments like that. Risk vs reward, and he took a high risk move and got a high reward. Of course, feel free to diminish the tactics of the situation in order to continue with your world view that the BotWD is the most broken item ever and a HE player who takes it should be punched in the nads.

CountUlrich
26-03-2014, 20:40
Correction, he should be punched in the nads REPEATEDLY ;-p ... but seriously if you think it isn't broken you are seriously beyond deluded. I can admit that my empire stanks are undercosted, and canons need toning down. Be honest, BotWD is broken

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Ratbeast
27-03-2014, 06:10
Calculated gamble. The flying things and chariot were not noticed because I was not in fear of a charge. Had he moved closer, making his charge more likely, he would of triggered my attention, by holding them back, and diverting my attention to another part of board, he was able to make me believe the chariot was going to charge something else.

You call it luck, but this game is filled with moments like that. Risk vs reward, and he took a high risk move and got a high reward. Of course, feel free to diminish the tactics of the situation in order to continue with your world view that the BotWD is the most broken item ever and a HE player who takes it should be punched in the nads.

Extreme luck or facing a player that doesn't know what he is doing.

Even with the chariots etc in the flank, them causing enough wounds to even contest with the amount the phoenix guard should/would of caused, and not suffered in return (armour plus 2 up ward save) should of even the odds.

Extremely lucky that is all, BotWD is broken and against DoC, its even worst

NemoSD
27-03-2014, 06:38
Extreme luck or facing a player that doesn't know what he is doing.

Even with the chariots etc in the flank, them causing enough wounds to even contest with the amount the phoenix guard should/would of caused, and not suffered in return (armour plus 2 up ward save) should of even the odds.

Extremely lucky that is all, BotWD is broken and against DoC, its even worst

For the life of me, my elves can not beat nurgle chaos warriors. It is so hard to wound, and then the stupid armor saves. Sure, I have ways around them, I can use a loremaster with lore of metal, but they completely shut down one of my tactics, they should be removed so that I do not have to consider a new approach.

It is powerful, and most of the people who play against HEs have learned to deal with it. Instead of making excuses for it, do what everyone else does. Figure out how to fight it and move on. Yes demons have a harder time with it, but HEs have an uphill fight against demons already. Is it to powerful? I wont judge there, but it is part of the game, and telling players they suck, or deserve physical pain because they use part of their book...

I guess we should tell Ogres no more Gutstars?
Empire no more cannon walls?

The one time the banner pays off to a broken degree is in a giant block of White Lions or PG, with minimum core, and barely anything else. That tactic only works against demons, and rarely wins the game. Against every other army, the white lion bannerstar will not last. Last post on this, talk to the wind if you desire to continue.