PDA

View Full Version : HH Legion list as a 40K army list



Krucifus
06-03-2014, 11:55
Hey there, I came across a post this morning stating that unless you're into a Cult Legion you're better off using the HH Legion List in 40K as most of what they had hasn't changed; the special Legion rules are flavoursome (Word Bearers, Night Lords etc.), and it's actually effective to use (delivery mechanisms exist, units support each other nicely etc.).

I've read both Horus Heresy books (and loved them btw) but I've never actually seen the Legion list perform on the table, so my first questions would be how well does it interact with other 40K armies? and are there any obvious balance issues?

The Chaos forces I have are a Death Guard list (which don't perform TOOO badly with the new dex, but I refuse to get a Helldrake for them), a warband with bits of everything (probably closer to Huron's lot than anything else), and my pride and joy, my Iron Warriors.

Currently my Iron Warriors use the new Space Marine dex, because it's in every way better than the Chaos one for my purposes; my Daemon Prince on Necron Destroyer body has become a perfect Biker-Chapter Master, bloated Obliterators have become Centurians, and most of the rest is easily represented with Codex choices. Plus I love Drop Pods.

So I guess I'm mainly wondering if anyone else has taken their lovingly sculptured but now abandoned 3.5 Chaos Legion army and turned it into a HH list, and how well that has worked out for you?

Leftenant Gashrog
06-03-2014, 12:08
Quite a few people feel the AdMech stuff would be seriously overpowered but I've not really read the AdMech rules.

My concern would be Volkites, they are good in almost every aspect except AP, which against marine armies renders them somewhat ineffective which is reflected in their 30k-specific point cost, but they'll chew through armies with a save worse than 4+ like a hot knife through butter.

Navar
06-03-2014, 14:44
I have only played a few games using the list, but the legion list at least, is spot on and very well balanced.

The only "broken" unit in the list (IMHO) is the Moritat. They have a special rule that lets the shoot 2 pistol weapons until they miss. At BS 5 that can be quite a lot of shooting coming from 1 member of a unit.

With that said, that is likely the worst offender in the Legion list. The balance is impeccable, and it always makes me a little frustrated when I think about what GW is capable of, and what they seem to consistently deliver.

With that said I have no idea how the Ad Mech stuff is balance wise. I am working on an Ad Mech army at the moment (along with a Heresy Iron Hands force), and nothing really stands out as amazing except for Tech Thralls, and they are so expensive to buy (meaning the models) I couldn't imagine spamming them.

But they cost the same as a Rhino and give you 10 T3 Feel No Pain bodies, and that seems way to good (to me.)

iplaythisgame
06-03-2014, 15:49
The units rules themselves are decently balanced. BUT The big difference is the squading of like units. You can certainly make a balanced army, but you can also abuse the squading rule to make a terribly unbalanced list. Specifically the Thudd guns can come in a squad of 3 and have 3 units. Those are similar to Thunderfires and having this many at that low of cost is over the top. All of the heavy vehicles can also be squaded with up to 9 vindicators. You can make a very broken list with the HH rules.

That being said, I have played a few games vs 40k armies and 20 man marine squads are pure fun.
Here are the video reports
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkseuFlgYWQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alxdKlehyec
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBM1530wWEI


So basically, be fun with it and no one should have a problem.

agurus1
06-03-2014, 18:35
Specifically the Thudd guns can come in a squad of 3 and have 3 units. Those are similar to Thunderfires and having this many at that low of cost is over the top.

They are in the heavily contested Elites slot though, which means you aren't getting other yummy things like Scoring Terminators, or Apothecaries for your giant Tactical Squads. Also if your opponent brings anything with side and front AV of 13+ and sticks troops in there then thats a lot of wasted shooting. And at 540 for 3 units of 3 its not cheap, and takes a fair chunk of your army that could be used for a more balanced approach. Don't get me wrong, they are VERY good for their points cost, but spamming them like anything else is a one trick pony that can be easily countered by the majority of armies out there (any Space Marine variant).


All of the heavy vehicles can also be squaded with up to 9 vindicators.

Not true, look at page 221 in the book, Vindicators are clearly 1 vehicle per FOC slot. Artillery Tank Squadrons (Basilisk, Medusa, and Whirlwind) can be taken in 1-3 per slot but they are a 0-1 choice per FOC. Also Predators and Land Raiders can be taken in Squadrons of 1-3, but they are far from optimum choices except some of the Predator variants imho, but even so thats going to be overkill for any unit they are shooting at. Maybe this was the source of your confusion?

I play using the HH rules for my Iron Warriors (modeling them as a post-Istvaan force), and pretty much have only used them vs other 40k armies. While they are good, they aren't overpowered by any means, and certainly compared to combinations availably for regular 40K armies (via allies and Formations) not broken. My thought is that most people who bother to go into the long haul of building a HH army aren't going to do it for the "competitiveness", but for the flavor! When I started using it for my Iron Warriors it was such a relief because the army worked like I had always wanted it too. I had Iron Warrior Basilisks again!!! So try it out with some of your buddies for a few games if you can. I promise you'll be hooked.

Navar
06-03-2014, 19:57
They are in the heavily contested Elites slot though, which means you aren't getting other yummy things like Scoring Terminators, or Apothecaries for your giant Tactical Squads. Also if your opponent brings anything with side and front AV of 13+ and sticks troops in there then thats a lot of wasted shooting. And at 540 for 3 units of 3 its not cheap, and takes a fair chunk of your army that could be used for a more balanced approach. Don't get me wrong, they are VERY good for their points cost, but spamming them like anything else is a one trick pony that can be easily countered by the majority of armies out there (any Space Marine variant).

I tend to forget that this is even possible because of how I build lists, but iplaythisgame does have a point that Thud Guns are amazing when taken in large numbers. Remember you can take 4 elite choices if you use the Age of Darkness FOC. So you can still take 3 apothecaries and 9 thud guns. To me the bigger issue is that this denies you the more "fun" options like Contemptors and most of your army specific troops (I know Iron Warriors don't have these yet.) As you say later though I don't think this is that much of an issue because most people I know who are into the Heresy armies aren't going to spend their time or money on the models to get 9 Thud Guns. The models are $50.00 and still require conversion, or you could use $56.00 Thunderfire Cannons, and build 18 additional Heresy era marines to crew them.

I think that Heresy Thud Gun Spam is more of a theorycrafting problem than an in game problem. But with that said, if anyone did bring 9 (or 12) thud guns to a game it would be daunting. 36 Strength 5 AP 5 blasts would not be fun to deal with for Orks for example.


Not true, look at page 221 in the book, Vindicators are clearly 1 vehicle per FOC slot. Artillery Tank Squadrons (Basilisk, Medusa, and Whirlwind) can be taken in 1-3 per slot but they are a 0-1 choice per FOC. Also Predators and Land Raiders can be taken in Squadrons of 1-3, but they are far from optimum choices except some of the Predator variants imho, but even so thats going to be overkill for any unit they are shooting at. Maybe this was the source of your confusion?

I was going to post something similar. I actually think they have done very well with the rest of the FOC to avoid much spamming. Artillery are a 0-1 choice, but you can take 3 vehicles in that 1 slot. You can take up to 3 land raiders per slot, but only 1 can be an Achilles. You can take a lot of predators, but they seem to be costed such that 9 Heavy Conversion beamer predators would cost you over half of the points you have to spend at 2,000 points.

And I concede that there may be some broken way to take predators, again I don't think it is very likely to actually find someone doing it.

Honestly the Sicaran and Mortis Contemptors might be easier to spam if you were TRYING to break the game. . . But IIRC they can be taken by a normal Space Marine list as well.

agurus1
06-03-2014, 20:16
I totally agree with you about how facing down 9 or 12 Quad guns would be daunting even for MEQ infantry lists, or light Armour lists. 9 quads would be 32 S5 small blast barrages a turn?

Navar
06-03-2014, 20:38
I totally agree with you about how facing down 9 or 12 Quad guns would be daunting even for MEQ infantry lists, or light Armour lists. 9 quads would be 32 S5 small blast barrages a turn?

9*4=36 small blast barrages at BS 4.

iplaythisgame
06-03-2014, 21:55
Point taken on the Vindicators. It's been a while since I built from the list. Also, there's the 1-5 Land Speeders per slot and 1-3 Contemptors. Not inherently bad, but It messes with the distribution of points per slot in a normal force org game. Like I said be fun and no one should have a problem. I wouldn't allow them in a tourney though.

I think they fixed the Moritat with errata though, something about him only being able to attach to certain units so he pretty much one shots a unit, then dies to shooting.

Navar
06-03-2014, 22:25
Point taken on the Vindicators. It's been a while since I built from the list. Also, there's the 1-5 Land Speeders per slot and 1-3 Contemptors. Not inherently bad, but It messes with the distribution of points per slot in a normal force org game. Like I said be fun and no one should have a problem. I wouldn't allow them in a tourney though.

I think they fixed the Moritat with errata though, something about him only being able to attach to certain units so he pretty much one shots a unit, then dies to shooting.

They made him a bit better, but he can still join Legion Destroyer squads, and travel in transports with them. They change it so he cannot benefit from blessings though, so you can't have XX Plasma Pistol shots that all ignore cover, or reroll misses, etc.

I guess I question why in an environment with Taudar you wouldn't allow them in tournaments (apart from Flavor.)

I think it is a safe bet that the most broken you can break the Horus Heresy Legion list would pale in comparison to Taudar or Screemerstar or what have you. Heck even a standard Codex: Imperial Knights force would likely harder to deal with.

Slayer-Fan123
06-03-2014, 23:22
I played against a 30k list once with my Necrons and it was a blast. Internal balance is solid and it can create quite a challenge to face. Go for it.

Krucifus
07-03-2014, 11:34
Thanks for all the feedback guys, I'll give them a shot with that list next game I play. :)

Everto
07-03-2014, 17:19
What are the troops choices like for the list?? Is it literally just 20 man tactical squads??

Navar
07-03-2014, 18:11
What are the troops choices like for the list?? Is it literally just 20 man tactical squads??

Nope.

Compulsory
Tactical Squad 10-20 members. Power Armor, Bolter, Bolt Pistol. 10 man can take Rhino. Can take Chainsword/CCW for XX Points/Model
Assault Squad 10-20 members. Jump pack, Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword/CCW.
Breacher Squad 10-20 members. Power Armor, Boarding Shield (6++ v. shooting/5++ in assault), Bolter, Bolt Pistol. 10 man can take Land Raider
Non-Compulsory
Tactical Support Squad 5-10 members. Power Armor, Flamer, Bolt Pistol. Can take Rhino. Can exchange Flamer for Special Weapons for XX Points/Model
Recon Squad 5-10 members. Power Armor, Bolter, Bolt Pistol, Defensive Grenades. Can take Rhino or Storm Eagle. Can Exchange Bolter for Sniper Rifle (for XX Points/Model), Shotgun, or Chainsword/CCW. Can take Recon Armor to gain Infultrate and Move through cover (but armor saves become 4+)

Everto
07-03-2014, 21:30
Nope.

Compulsory
Tactical Squad 10-20 members. Power Armor, Bolter, Bolt Pistol. 10 man can take Rhino. Can take Chainsword/CCW for XX Points/Model
Assault Squad 10-20 members. Jump pack, Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword/CCW.
Breacher Squad 10-20 members. Power Armor, Boarding Shield (6++ v. shooting/5++ in assault), Bolter, Bolt Pistol. 10 man can take Land Raider
Non-Compulsory
Tactical Support Squad 5-10 members. Power Armor, Flamer, Bolt Pistol. Can take Rhino. Can exchange Flamer for Special Weapons for XX Points/Model
Recon Squad 5-10 members. Power Armor, Bolter, Bolt Pistol, Defensive Grenades. Can take Rhino or Storm Eagle. Can Exchange Bolter for Sniper Rifle (for XX Points/Model), Shotgun, or Chainsword/CCW. Can take Recon Armor to gain Infultrate and Move through cover (but armor saves become 4+)

Thank you for this, it's swaying me in the legion direction already :)

Navar
07-03-2014, 22:25
Thank you for this, it's swaying me in the legion direction already :)

No problem, glad I could help.

One thing that is brilliant about the legion list is that it only contains 2 "generic" HQ choices, but 1 of them can make a psuedo Master of the Forge, Librarian, uber-Apothecary, scout captain, etc. It is sublime.

agurus1
08-03-2014, 04:33
No problem, glad I could help.

One thing that is brilliant about the legion list is that it only contains 2 "generic" HQ choices, but 1 of them can make a psuedo Master of the Forge, Librarian, uber-Apothecary, scout captain, etc. It is sublime.


Agreed! Centurion is only HQ choice I take! Favorites are the Master of Signal and Chaplain upgrades ;)

Leftenant Gashrog
08-03-2014, 16:46
Also, there's the 1-5 Land Speeders per slot and 1-3 Contemptors. Not inherently bad, but It messes with the distribution of points per slot in a normal force org game.

Since when has there been any kind of normal points distribution per slot? Imperial Guard Troop and Heavy slots for example can cost anywhere from 70 to 500 points.
A maxed out Contemptor Talon is about the same cost as a maxed out (inc dedicated transport) vanilla Terminator squad.
A maxed out Land Speeder squadron is about the same as a maxed out IG Vendetta squadron.