PDA

View Full Version : Retrospective on the Wraithknight & Things to Come



Saunders
06-03-2014, 22:26
It's been pretty clear for the past few years now that GW publications contain a lot of foreshadowing in regards to where 40k will be going in the future. In the lead up to 6th edition, for instance, we had flyers appearing in every codex for quite some time now as a prelude to a true integration with the core rules. More recently, the Escalation supplement made off-hand mention of Knights, in at least one instance that I recall.

As I assembled another Wraithknight to join the ranks of my Spirit Host, I was struck by how inspired the Knight-Titan is from it; the argument could easily be made that they were designed in tandem, as much as has been stated by the developers that the Wraithknight inspired the current iteration of Knight-Titan. This led me to wonder as to whether or not the Wraithknight was an abortive attempt to create a gargantuan creature for the Craftworld Eldar at some point in the design cycle for their codex.

Several cues strike me as obvious indicators in retrospect of the Escalation release and the Knight-Titan rules; the most obvious of these would be the loadout options for the Wraithknight. The optional dual shoulder-mounted heavy weapons seem like a poorly-designed afterthought for the unit, being that it doesn't have a discernable use for them when paired with half of the primary weapon options. They suddenly seem quite useful in any case when you can fire them all as a gargantuan creature/superheavy walker. The other questionable design decision, the ghostglaive/shield loadout, also makes total sense when you make the ghostglaive a D-weapon like the Knight Titan chainswords. As it stands, the ghostglaive is an odd upgrade.

The movement profile also raises flags. It was statted as a jump monstrous creature in the codex; this is intriguing to me, because there is very little indication in the fluff or on the model that the wraithknight has any sort of jump jets. That said, a gargantuan creature moves 12" stock. The posability of the model is also strictly terrestrial, and anyone who has assembled one can attest that it's virtually impossible to repose it in to anything more acrobatic than a lazy stride without cheating by putting the lower legs on backwards. Its physical size also dwarfs anything else with legs that GW makes... well, that much is obvious.


This all leads me to wonder if the gargantuan creature route has been abandoned entirely for the Wraithknight, or if we'll see a revamp for it in the future. 7th edition is allegedly only a couple months away, and with it we're expected to see lords of war officially incorporated in to the cure ruleset. I suppose its a bit much to expect the Wraithknight to undergo a metamorphosis overnight, but maybe we'll see changes on the horizon for it. Has anyone seen anything else in recent publications that has caused them to pause and wonder if there's greater significance in the future?

I know I've looked at the change to the Vanguard Squad's 'heroic intervention' rule over the month and wondered if it was done with 7th edition in mind (and a return of consolidating in to new combat as a disorganized charge)

Theocracity
06-03-2014, 23:04
Turning the Wraithknight into a Gargantuan creature makes sense to me. It certainly opens up its viable weapon options, gives it a Stomp attack to match its shorter rival Imperial Knight, and generally cleans up its rules. Presumably that would coincide with an LOW in the FOC, which would limit the number you see on the field to one (or maybe two if they keep the doubling).

It does beg the question of how they handle the Riptide, Trygon, and other similarly scaled models though.

Saunders
06-03-2014, 23:14
I thought about the Riptide and the Trygon, and I feel as though they're well-suited to the monstrous creature role in their current iterations. The Riptide is at 5 wounds and T6, which makes me feel as though it's on par with greater daemons and the likes. its physical presence, while quite large and bulky, doesn't seem out of the realm of monstrous creatures. The Trygon could go either way since it's the original example of a gargantuan creature constrained to monstrous creature rules, but it's adapted quite well to its niche in the tyranids codex with 3 different build options. That could go either way, but I think I'd rather see a new bug fill that LOW slot from GW since the constraints of taking one LOW per Force Org would seem rather restrictive for the Trygon.

TBH, the Wraithknight is quite a bit bigger than all of them (Knight-Titan included, but that's a squat and broad walker at any rate) so much that it really feels like a class of its own in GW models.

Theocracity
06-03-2014, 23:29
True. I also forgot that Knights can be taken in multiples, so whatever they do it might not relate directly to Lords of War. Perhaps we'll see a new FOC that allows multiples of similar Knight class models that use SH or GC rules but aren't quite to the scale of Lords of War.

We certainly live in interesting times.

Greyhound
06-03-2014, 23:30
I don't think the riptide is "Well-suited" to the monstrous creature role.
No need to reopen the wound, but if we get a "Reboot" then all mechanical piece on 2 legs should be put back in a re-vamp vehicle-walker categories.
I don't want my poison attack to defeat the riptide, and I DO want my tank-hammers to blow up its legs.

There should be:
- Monstrous creature: mostly tyranids, some kroots, ork squigoths, maybe even someone like Ghazgkull and some daemons/chaos creatures
- Stumpy walkers: Dreadnoughts, Killa kans, the heaviest-less-mobile tau battelsuits maybe. These things tank just about everything, and do not dodge bullets, they rely on heavy structure and are sensitive to anti-vehicle weapons
- Lean and agile walkers: that's the world of wraithknight and maybe most Tau battlesuits, these things are fast agile machines with the ability to dodge rockets, take some bullets in the face and are capable of mechanical-enhanced movements no living creatures can pull out.

The size of these three categories can easily be covered with:
- more/less hull points, wounds
- more/less jink saves
- more/less armour saves
- more/less USR such as stomp attack, hammer of wrath etc...

The Emperor
07-03-2014, 03:46
I'm personally hoping we'll see more units use the Super Heavy rules without also being a Lord of War. The Leman Russ, for instance, seems like a good choice to me to be elevated to a Super Heavy vehicle.

Saunders
07-03-2014, 04:10
I'm personally hoping we'll see more units use the Super Heavy rules without also being a Lord of War. The Leman Russ, for instance, seems like a good choice to me to be elevated to a Super Heavy vehicle.
o.O
That strikes me as an exceedingly bad idea... it wouldn't make much sense to elevate IG's main battle tank to super heavy status (which entails such rules as being able to thunderblitz) especially since they are taken in squadrons.

The Emperor
07-03-2014, 04:37
It'd give them the ability to move and fire all their weapons without hindrance, not to mention fire their guns at different targets. Suddenly the heavy bolter sponsons on a Leman Russ Battle Tank with a hull-mounted lascannon would make sense again. At the end of the day they're still a 3 Hull Point vehicle which can potentially be killed off in one shot, so it seems fine to me.

Ssilmath
07-03-2014, 04:38
Or you could just give all tanks the Split Fire rule and be done with it.

Fangschrecken
07-03-2014, 04:47
I think making the lumbering behemoth rule work like it did in 5th edition would be enough for the russ. Making it a heavy vehicles was a unnecessary nerf.

Guardsman Marbo
07-03-2014, 05:50
I like my Leman Russ in large numbers on the table. Them being super heavy means a lot rolling on the catastrophic damage table. Blowing one up which is not to hard with 3 hull points leaves a big hole in my lines. Lumbering behemoth should be fixed and they'll be fine

MajorWesJanson
07-03-2014, 07:18
Or just allow all heavy vehicles to fire at separate targets. Buff the Russ, and remove the need for a special rule on the Monolith.

Pssyche
07-03-2014, 11:04
Going back to the Original Post.

"The movement profile also raises flags. It was stated as a jump monstrous creature in the codex...there is very little indication...on the model that the wraithknight has any sort of jump jets."


188618


Any idea what those are on the side of the Wraithknight's chest?

Kingly
07-03-2014, 11:43
I'm still reluctant to believe they will incorporate the super heavies into the normal rules, I believe they will incorporate Escilation into the full rule book, but keep it as an expansion like City fight is in 6th.

Mauler
07-03-2014, 11:59
I think it does make quite a bit of sense for the Wraithknight to be scooted up to GC status at some point. It's pushing things a bit as it is. I really can't see a 6.5 or 7th edition this soon after 6th. It makes zilch sense as GW will effectively be throwing away the profits of people buying three books (BRB, Escalation & Assault) with one single new book. Zero sense.

Also I have to point out that Knights are not Titans so to say "Knight-Titan" is a misnomer. There are Knights and then there are Titans.

OuroborosTriumphant
07-03-2014, 12:11
It'd make a lot of sense to make Heavy vehicles more like a half-way step between Super-Heavies and normal vehicles. I think a Russ probably ought to be able to fire all weapons including an Ordnance turret at full effect. I'm not so sure Thunderblitz, ignoring the Vehicle Damage Table and being able to split fire suit a Russ.

OuroborosTriumphant
07-03-2014, 12:12
Also I have to point out that Knights are not Titans so to say "Knight-Titan" is a misnomer. There are Knights and then there are Titans.

The box mine came in says "Imperial Knight Titan" on it.

MajorWesJanson
07-03-2014, 12:17
The box mine came in says "Imperial Knight Titan" on it.

For copyright reasons. Imperial Knight is a bit too generic to be protectable. We have yet to see any rules or fluff that says Knight Titan.

Mauler
07-03-2014, 12:50
The box mine came in says "Imperial Knight Titan" on it.

Aye, Wes covered that.

Despite their size, Knights are more akin to Imperial Dreadnoughts than actual Titans: they're an operator and a suit rather than a crew meshing with a machine with a personality. I'm still getting through the new novel but the fluff that I've seen so far doesn't include any indication of the Knight having a distinct personality and subconcious animalistic instinctive 'pull' like Imperial Titans do, they're 'just' a machine that the single pilot joins with and operates via a neural link like an extension of himself. One cool touch is that, like Eldar Aspect Warrior armour, the Knight does retain traces of the previous pilots but I'm yet to see how they interact with the living pilot.

Sorry, I mean no offense but I get kinda finnicky with people being accurate!

Poseidal
07-03-2014, 12:59
Going back to the Original Post.

"The movement profile also raises flags. It was stated as a jump monstrous creature in the codex...there is very little indication...on the model that the wraithknight has any sort of jump jets."

Any idea what those are on the side of the Wraithknight's chest?

Maybe if the Eldar used some more energy efficient parts, it would be capable of perma-flight and be a FMC.

AndrewGPaul
07-03-2014, 13:16
Aye, Wes covered that.

Despite their size, Knights are more akin to Imperial Dreadnoughts than actual Titans: they're an operator and a suit rather than a crew meshing with a machine with a personality. I'm still getting through the new novel but the fluff that I've seen so far doesn't include any indication of the Knight having a distinct personality and subconcious animalistic instinctive 'pull' like Imperial Titans do, they're 'just' a machine that the single pilot joins with and operates via a neural link like an extension of himself. One cool touch is that, like Eldar Aspect Warrior armour, the Knight does retain traces of the previous pilots but I'm yet to see how they interact with the living pilot.

Sorry, I mean no offense but I get kinda finnicky with people being accurate!

The Knight does have its own cybernetic personality. Where it differs from Titans is that it's a recording of the pilot, not a recording of a predatory mammal as with the Titans.

Unless the Codex changes things, that's how it's described in the original Epic article.

Saunders
07-03-2014, 14:53
Those look like air intakes, I suppose. Fair point.

Navar
07-03-2014, 14:54
I'm still reluctant to believe they will incorporate the super heavies into the normal rules, I believe they will incorporate Escalation into the full rule book, but keep it as an expansion like City fight is in 6th.

2 things here.

#1 Codex: Imperial Knights incorporates super heavies into the normal rules. It contains everything you need to play (from a rules perspective) an entire army full of Super Heavies.
#2 The design team have come out and said that they consider Escalation to be part of the core rule set along with Stronghold Assault.

I am NOT sold on the idea that 7th is coming this year, but if it does come them I do believe that a Lord of War slot like in the Age of Darkness will be included in the "standard" FoC.

In fact I wouldn't be shocked to see it in the new Codex: IG (or AM or whatever.)

Mauler
07-03-2014, 15:14
The Knight does have its own cybernetic personality. Where it differs from Titans is that it's a recording of the pilot, not a recording of a predatory mammal as with the Titans.

Unless the Codex changes things, that's how it's described in the original Epic article.

I'll let you know soon as I get through the novel and my codex was dispatched today! :)

Poseidal
07-03-2014, 15:42
Those look like air intakes, I suppose. Fair point.

I actually think those are airtakes, but the 'round' things on the back (connected to the structure with the intakes on the shoulders) are the boosters. There are three:

188628

Theocracity
07-03-2014, 15:47
I just assumed the Wraithknight had Jump status because of how long its legs were. Not so much boosting or jumping around as walking right over it....

Loopstah
07-03-2014, 17:06
I think the OP has hit on something, the Wraithknight makes a lot more sense as a super-heavy. Will be interesting to see if it gets promoted in the next codex/ edition.

Saunders
07-03-2014, 17:59
I actually think those are airtakes, but the 'round' things on the back (connected to the structure with the intakes on the shoulders) are the boosters. There are three:

188628

If those are boosters (which they very well could be), they look unlike any of the other boosters on eldar units. Now I've got an urge to dremel in some holes at the ends of them.

Langdon
07-03-2014, 18:55
I'm personally hoping we'll see more units use the Super Heavy rules without also being a Lord of War. The Leman Russ, for instance, seems like a good choice to me to be elevated to a Super Heavy vehicle.

You want to give the Lemon Russ super heavy?

I am sure LR will follow, and battelwagons, and Fire Prisms, maybe the DinoBots too?

Guard has a ton of super heavies as is..

Bonzai
07-03-2014, 23:18
I had similar thoughts to the OP. If super heavys are now part of the normal game, then there needs to be a wave of cheap super heavies for all armies to balance it out. Orks, Eldar, and guard have some. Necrons have the Obelisk, but does that really count?

If this is were the game is going, then we need an even playing field as much as can be managed. Ideas?

DE: gargantuan wych cult arena beasts or duped up pain engine.

Orks: something between a mega dread and a stomps? Squiggith packs?

Necrons: gargantuan canoptek construct? Preatorian battle tank?

Tau: some sort of tank? The giant kroot beasts?

Chaos: daemon Primarchs :P

Eldar: wasn't there some sort of centaur knight things way back when?

Lots of potential.

The Emperor
08-03-2014, 05:30
You want to give the Lemon Russ super heavy?

I am sure LR will follow, and battelwagons, and Fire Prisms, maybe the DinoBots too?

Guard has a ton of super heavies as is..

All of which are Lords of War. I'm talking about upgrading the Leman Russ to a Super Heavy without being a Lord of War, similar to the way the Knight is a Super Heavy Walker, but not a Lord of War. The Leman Russ Battle Tank is a tank which certainly deserves to be tougher than the average tank, and to be more resistant to the effects of the vehicle damage chart than most other vehicles, not to mention being able to fire all its guns at full effect and at separate targets. Despite those advantages, though, we'd still be talking about a vehicle with Rear Armor 10 and 3 Hull Points, so if anyone scores a Penetrating Hit and rolls a 6 for damage then on average they'll inflict 3 Hull Points of damage, enough to kill it with one shot.

At the very least, it'd be nice if GW were to reimagine the "Heavy Vehicle" rule as being a stepping stone between normal Vehicles and Super Heavy Vehicles, enjoying many of the same benefits as a Super Heavy.

MajorWesJanson
08-03-2014, 09:10
All of which are Lords of War. I'm talking about upgrading the Leman Russ to a Super Heavy without being a Lord of War, similar to the way the Knight is a Super Heavy Walker, but not a Lord of War. The Leman Russ Battle Tank is a tank which certainly deserves to be tougher than the average tank, and to be more resistant to the effects of the vehicle damage chart than most other vehicles, not to mention being able to fire all its guns at full effect and at separate targets. Despite those advantages, though, we'd still be talking about a vehicle with Rear Armor 10 and 3 Hull Points, so if anyone scores a Penetrating Hit and rolls a 6 for damage then on average they'll inflict 3 Hull Points of damage, enough to kill it with one shot.

At the very least, it'd be nice if GW were to reimagine the "Heavy Vehicle" rule as being a stepping stone between normal Vehicles and Super Heavy Vehicles, enjoying many of the same benefits as a Super Heavy.

Leman Russ are in no way superheavies. Modify Heavy tanks to fire all weapons at separate targets would make sense, and clean up the Monolith rules a tad. Superheavy rules for the Russ is a terrible idea though. Ignoring 5/6 of the damage chart is not just making it more resistant, it is just an attempt to remove the damage chart entirely. And making them superheavies would give them Fear, Thunderblitz, and Catastrophic explosions. We do not need a 15" blast with Str D in the middle for a russ exploding.

Mauler
10-03-2014, 12:45
If those are boosters (which they very well could be), they look unlike any of the other boosters on eldar units. Now I've got an urge to dremel in some holes at the ends of them.

Aye, I've got Eldar jump-pack units at home (Wasps & Shadow Spectres) and both units have clear jet hardware with visible thrusters.

I can only go with the OP and assume that the Wraithknight was originally pencilled in as a SHW but was downsized and shoehorned into the Eldar codex while Escalation was still being finished.

Spiney Norman
10-03-2014, 12:57
All of which are Lords of War. I'm talking about upgrading the Leman Russ to a Super Heavy without being a Lord of War, similar to the way the Knight is a Super Heavy Walker, but not a Lord of War. The Leman Russ Battle Tank is a tank which certainly deserves to be tougher than the average tank, and to be more resistant to the effects of the vehicle damage chart than most other vehicles, not to mention being able to fire all its guns at full effect and at separate targets. Despite those advantages, though, we'd still be talking about a vehicle with Rear Armor 10 and 3 Hull Points, so if anyone scores a Penetrating Hit and rolls a 6 for damage then on average they'll inflict 3 Hull Points of damage, enough to kill it with one shot.

At the very least, it'd be nice if GW were to reimagine the "Heavy Vehicle" rule as being a stepping stone between normal Vehicles and Super Heavy Vehicles, enjoying many of the same benefits as a Super Heavy.

Russes just aren't big enough, you could maybe make it fly with the land raider, but even then I doubt it. I think its much more likely that they do away with the vehicle damage chart and have every vehicle operate in a similar way to how SHs take damage.