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Nixon28/02
09-03-2014, 07:45
Hopefully there's not another thread like this around...

Anyway, I saw the Bretonnia version and Wood Elves are really the only other army in need of an army book update (apart from Beastmen) and at the moment are fairly under par - in the general consensus of players (I think). I don't know the book that well so I've only got a couple of ideas so what do you guys think?

P.S - I'm not saying the Wood Elves are unusable by any means merely that they are one of the weakest armies out there

Ok so my 2 Cents:

Marksman Prowess - All Wood Elf models with bows may ignore penalties to hit when shooting such as Long Range, Standing and Shooting, or aiming at a target behind cover

Basically the Wood Elves, like the other two species, get a Prowess type special rule. As they are the supposed to be the finest archers in the Old World then surely they deserve a rule like this. Only problem is it's basically Arrows of Asaph turned up a notch, so maybe it's a bit OP - especially with the other rules I've had an idea about...

Always Strikes First

Doesn't really need explaining - both Dark and High Elves have this rule and it seems to be a thing now

Elven Longbows - all models equipped with LONGBOWS count the strength of their shooting as Strength 4 rather than

Think there's a rule like this already but thought I'd kind of tweak it a bit - probably a bit OP when combined with the fact Wood Elves would already hit on 3s

Glade Guard may take Shields for 1pt

Not a rule as such but would give them a bit more survivability and would mean with Asf and Hand Weapons they could double as melee troops


Right there we go that's all I've got so far. Obviously Glade Guard would probably have to be increased in points if they got all those things. I also kind of had an idea for some Wood Elves on Great Stags as Monstrous Cavalry or something...

Kakapo42
09-03-2014, 09:40
There are actually several threads like this one.

I much prefer the current archery bonus myself. The wonderful thing about it is that it keeps the whole army completely mobile - there isn't a single Wood Elf unit currently that shouldn't be moving (except maybe Eternal Guard about to receive a charge, but even that's debatable). By taking away their ability to ignore movement penalties, suddenly a lot of their shooting units are anchored in place.

The thing with giving Glade Guard survivability is that I'm not sure they really need it. Ideally Glade Guard, just like other missile units in the game, shouldn't see direct combat at all. This is especially true with Wood Elf units, who all revolve around the idea that you don't need extra survivability if you can't be hit in the first place/have already killed everyone.

Something that's started floating around, that I'd much prefer, is a camouflage special rule that grants all Wood Elf units a -1 to hit penalty for enemies shooting them, just as if they were in soft cover (I myself would take this a step further and have it stack with the current such rule Waywatchers get).

I have a bunch of other ideas myself. If I can find where I posted them last then I'll quote them here. In a nutshell though I wouldn't change much about them. A few points adjustments here, some rule tweaks there, and job's a good 'un I say.

Poseidal
09-03-2014, 10:05
Allow them to Skirmish 7th edition style for some units.

Dryads -> Rank & File formation, but are treated as Skirmishers in regards to forests and being in or out of them.

Ratbeast
09-03-2014, 11:02
Reduced point costs across the entire range

no penalty for going into random forests

Better spell lore, Athel loren atm is ****, access to more rulebook ones on lower lvl guys

Something with high strength attacks that aren't melee, I see no reason why wood elves don't make use of bolt throwers or something bigger then a bow (for guys that defend, they don't have any high power defense tools)

Ambushers on more unit, dryads should be able to pop out of any forest on the board, add to the whole ambush fluff

Forest spirit ward save made general, a normal ward

More special charaters, that aren't stupid powerful or over costed

Some sort of hunting dog/wolf unit, something for cheap chaff, forest is full of animals, only horses, stags, and birds fight? nay should have other vicious animals defend their homes

and plenty more, old wood elves need a miracle

SpanielBear
09-03-2014, 13:24
After playing a whole lot of games with them over the last few months, I'd say that Wood Elves need only a few things to 'fix' them.

- Glade Guard bows as a purchasable upgrade for units and characters.
- ASF
- Marksman Prowess (because odds are we'll get something like this)- re-roll 1s to wound with shooting attacks.
- A way of dealing with large combat blocks. As things stand, Wood Elves are IMO the best army for dealing with chaff and MSU even now. We can manoeuvre to avoid a lot of unfavourable combats, and can focus a lot of pain on small units. However, solid units with rank bonuses and stubborn are hard nuts to crack. Now to a certain extent this is quite a characterful weakness, as a unit that is disciplined and able to hold formation should be at least risk from the Wood Elves style of fighting, but given the preponderance of such units the Wood Elves need a response. My thought is something like Celtic Warbands- a cheap(ish) unit of Elves armed with Swords, Shields, Talismanic Tattoos and not much else. A way of getting a unit with ranks into the army, while keeping the Eternal Guard's elite status.
- Cheap chaff that isn't all eagles all the time. Spite swarms would be very cool.
- Improved Waywatchers. Everyone has their own ideas how to do this, so I'll just let them fill in this gap. The unit needs it though.
- Better Lore of Athel Loren. One thought I had was having tree-singing being the lore attribute rather than a specific spell, as in every successful spell cast also allows the tree-singer to either move a forest d3+1 inches or do d6 s4 hits to unit within a forest.
- Cheaper units. As things stand nearly every unit is over-priced. In some cases not by much; with Glade Guard and Dryads I'd say the pricing is nearly correct as a reflection of what they can do, but other units- not so much.
- More special characters. Personally, I'd like to see Ariel (as an uber spell weaver) and Naid the Prophetess (as a minor spell singer who can buff archers) come back.

Nixon28/02
09-03-2014, 14:05
Something like Hounds of Kurnous in terms of cheap chaff? Seeing as they tend to release a "big" model/unit with every release now what do you think it could be for the Wood Elves? Suped up Treeman?

SpanielBear
09-03-2014, 14:11
Something like Hounds of Kurnous in terms of cheap chaff? Seeing as they tend to release a "big" model/unit with every release now what do you think it could be for the Wood Elves? Suped up Treeman?

My bet is on either a Treeman dual kit, that can either be a close combat beast or a stone-thrower/bolt thrower/some kind of long range variant, or a new forest dragon, or Ariel.

I reckon probably the Treeman.

Nixon28/02
09-03-2014, 18:38
A long range Treeman? Maybe some kind of all-in-one that acts like a combat beast with the ability to throw boulders (Stone thrower profile) thrown in too?

SpanielBear
09-03-2014, 18:47
A long range Treeman? Maybe some kind of all-in-one that acts like a combat beast with the ability to throw boulders (Stone thrower profile) thrown in too?

Something like that. Although for balance sake I imagine there'll be choice between close combat and ranged prowess. So long as it's better than the cygor...

Nixon28/02
09-03-2014, 19:00
True - I hope it's something believable though, not like a Treeman with a bolt thrower pointing through it's eye sockets or something

Kayosiv
09-03-2014, 20:53
Hopefully there's not another thread like this around...

Anyway, I saw the Bretonnia version and Wood Elves are really the only other army in need of an army book update (apart from Beastmen) and at the moment are fairly under par - in the general consensus of players (I think). I don't know the book that well so I've only got a couple of ideas so what do you guys think?

P.S - I'm not saying the Wood Elves are unusable by any means merely that they are one of the weakest armies out there

Ok so my 2 Cents:

Marksman Prowess - All Wood Elf models with bows may ignore penalties to hit when shooting such as Long Range, Standing and Shooting, or aiming at a target behind cover

Basically the Wood Elves, like the other two species, get a Prowess type special rule. As they are the supposed to be the finest archers in the Old World then surely they deserve a rule like this. Only problem is it's basically Arrows of Asaph turned up a notch, so maybe it's a bit OP - especially with the other rules I've had an idea about...

Always Strikes First

Doesn't really need explaining - both Dark and High Elves have this rule and it seems to be a thing now

Elven Longbows - all models equipped with LONGBOWS count the strength of their shooting as Strength 4 rather than

Think there's a rule like this already but thought I'd kind of tweak it a bit - probably a bit OP when combined with the fact Wood Elves would already hit on 3s



See you've made the most common mistake when attempting to increase the power of wood elves, and that is attempting to give them better shooting. They DO NOT need better shooting. Glade guard shooting is extremely potent and does not need to be improved. These 2 changes alone would see every wood elf army castling in a corner, hitting you on 3's at strength 4 from 30 inches away as you desperately try to slog at them while they back up 2.5 inches every turn and continue to rain death down upon you.

Strength 4 within 15" is indeed powerful enough. They don't need quick-to-fire, the ability to ignore penalties, sniper, or always strength 4 to be good. Glade guard are already amazingly good. They're one of the best units in the book and some of the best archers point for point in the game already. For core, they are awesome and if they got always strike first would be about perfectly priced as is with 0 changes. If I were to make a change, I would make wood elves allowed to shoot all of their bows in ranks for volley-fire purposes so their entire army didn't have to units of guys that were 2 ranks deep.

Here is what I would change.

Lore of Athel Loren needs to of course, not suck. That's a given. It was perfectly on par with the lores of the time but it quite obviously needs a boost.

Eternal Guard need heavy armor (they effectively already have this), shields, spears, and to have 2 attacks base. Lower their leadership to 8 but make them stubborn always, not just with a character.

Glade Riders need a slight point cut but are otherwise fine.

Warhawk riders need to be like 20 points a piece.

War Dancers need to be dropped to about 13 points a piece. Otherwise I like them.

Forest spirits of all kinds need a real 5+ ward save, but should suffer from instability.

It would be nice if the kindreds were removed or revamped so they weren't quite so restrictive/expensive on what character options they brought.

Wildriders need more durability. I don't think a 3+ armor save for shields + light armor + "barded" steed is out of the question. They're super beefed up magical horses with guys with magical super powers riding them. Toughness 4 isn't even out of the question. I do think that they don't perhaps need amazing armor, but the ability to be the elven unit that can get stuck in and keep fighting for a while is a pivotal role for them to have. If they don't do this, they're going to need some sort of "break steadfast easier" rule to function as a glass hammer.

Waywatchers need their killing blow rule sorted out. Killing blow in general is super lackluster (unless it's super overpowered... depending on circumstances, bad rule) right now and ideally they would be dropped to about 15 points a piece and just ignore armor on rolls of 6 to wound. I could see giving these guys quick-to-fire as well.

cyberspite
10-03-2014, 02:08
See you've made the most common mistake when attempting to increase the power of wood elves, and that is attempting to give them better shooting. They DO NOT need better shooting.

Agreed, waywatchers need a buff to justify their status as elite scouts, but otherwise it's the combat units that have the problems.

Wild riders, wardancers, warhawks and eternal guard all need to offer a viable threat, which at the moment they just don't.

Knifeparty
10-03-2014, 03:03
The High Elves got a lot of what I expected wood elves to get as far as Flying Chariots and Ward Saves are concerned.

I think we need to look at ward saves for survivability with Wood Elves because they literally have no armour. Obviously a large points decrease is in order.

I don't mind strength 4 bows on all Wood Elves, maybe only at half range though.

Possibly a special rule for Treekin that when you are in base contact with Treekin in combat you count as being in a forest and cannot benefit from steadfast and are disrupted.

I also think that all tree kin/dryads should have regeneration instead of ward saves and be flammable.

Lastavenger
10-03-2014, 07:13
All shooting is S4 on half range, don't suffer movement penalty.
Eternal guard - 2 attacks base, 6+ as, 6++ ward, stubborn. They can always make full number of supporting attacks. Lot of attacks at Ws5 S3 (3 ranks horde would have 60) should help to deal with infantry blocks.
Glade Riders - make them cheaper


Warhawk riders- make them cheaper but more expensive than Glade Riders


War Dancers- fix dances or give them 2 attacks bases (so 3 with two hand weapons) and + 1S on charge. Maybe KB?

Wild riders - Make them T4, give devastating charge.
Waywatchers- If KB don't apply, they ignore armor on roll of 6 to wound.

Spiney Norman
10-03-2014, 11:34
I think wood elves are actually quite easy to fix, most elf units would be worth their current points value just by adding the ASF rule to them. Archers, eternal guard, Wardancers and wild riders all fall into this category IMHO.

Change the ASF shadow dance to 'ignores armour saves', give all forest spirits a true ward save rather than the current conditional one. Treemen still need to come down a few points, as do glade riders, Waywatchers, scouts and warhawk riders.

Also the lore of Loren needs revamping, and I would like to open up the lore selection for both lord and hero level wizards, if not the whole spectrum of lores, then at least adding shadows, beasts, life and heavens as an option for all levels of elf mages, if the branch wraith is going to retain its option to be a L1 I would probably limit their selection to Loren or life.

Kayosiv
10-03-2014, 12:51
I think we need to look at ward saves for survivability with Wood Elves because they literally have no armour. Obviously a large points decrease is in order.

I don't mind strength 4 bows on all Wood Elves, maybe only at half range though.

Possibly a special rule for Treekin that when you are in base contact with Treekin in combat you count as being in a forest and cannot benefit from steadfast and are disrupted.

I also think that all tree kin/dryads should have regeneration instead of ward saves and be flammable.

As long as glade riders don't get strength 4 bows I think it is fine. The guys on horses shouldn't just be the infantry models but faster/better. I think all infantry getting strength 4 at close range would be fine though.

Oh my gosh. That would make treekin, bar none, the best unit in the entire game. No way.

Regen 5+ and flamable would make a lot of sense. It does pronounce their weaknessess though so I'm not sure that's the best idea but it certainly makes perfect sense thematically.


I think wood elves are actually quite easy to fix, most elf units would be worth their current points value just by adding the ASF rule to them. Archers, eternal guard, Wardancers and wild

I would argue that Eternal guard are just glorified elven spearmen, which coincidentally are terrible. You just can't pay 10+ points a model with strength 3 attacks unless it has some sort of wound aiding special rule. They're too useless against too large a number of things. Even with always strike first I don't feel they would be a competitive choice compared to more dryads. They either need to be strength 4 or come way down in price, or alternatively get some sort of durability special rule/good armor save so they can be a stubborn block that acts as an anvil.

I'm not sure Treemen do need to come down in price. If they were given a real ward save, despite how expensive they are I feel it is correct. They have really great stats, multiple useful special rules, and generally are hard to kill/do well in every game I see them played in.

Micalovits
10-03-2014, 16:12
Army wide Rules
ASF, as all the other elves, but not for forest spirits.
Keep forest strider and the no movement penalty, possibly make them ignore woods for cover when shooting?
Forest spirit should get a true ward at 5+, and maybe make them unbreakable and something akin to the daemonic instability rules?
Keep the woodland ambush rule, just because it is cool. Maybe allow you to spend points to bring more forest? could be a treeman/ancient upgrade.
Str 4 at short range for all bows would be nice, but posibly not needed.

Characters
Seeperate sprites from magic items? eg 25 heroes, 50 lords? and more for ancient and branchwraith?
Wouldn't change anything for highborn/nobles, other than maybe some minor cost changes and make BSB cost the standard 25 p.
Spellweavers/singers should have access to some more lores, but not all. Like: Shadow, Life, Beast, Heavens and light?
Ancient could use point decrease or a buff focused on special rules with the same going for the treeman
Branchwraiths are generally fine, though allowing them to take lore of beast would be nice and maybe str 5?

Core
Glade guards are good already, and will be great with ASF. Scouts should be a side grade where you lose the str 4 shooting? or make it cost like 3 points instead? Maybe even seperating them from the glade guard, at least in that annoying "you can't have more scouts than glade guards" thing
Glade riders should really drop to around 20 points
Eternal Guard are a weird one... Firstly, remove the highborn requirement for core, and maybe drop them to 10 points? That or move them to special, increase cost and make them str 4.
Dryads are just fine.

Special
Wardancers should get a 4+ ward against shooting. For dances have: 4+ ward, +1 attack,ignore armour/5+ killing blow. Points should be fine with shooting protection and ASF
Warhawks really just need more offensive power. Give Riders str 4 base, and 2 attacks and then keep everything else, including point cost.
Wild riders would also get an extra attack, and then change the special rules to bonus WS on the charge and then always cause fear? T 4 wouldn't be out of the question if the points stayed the same.
Tree kin should maybe drop 5 points, and go up to ws 5, otherwise they are fine.
Would like to see some sort of swarm a little like the VC spirit host, but with sprites instead.

Rare
Waywatchers are generally fine stat wise, though having 2 attacks would be nice, but maybe unnecessary. Allow them to choose between the following when shooting: Multiple shot 3, increased str, or sniper, but remove all killing blow stuff. Also a ambush rule that allowed them to enter though forest instead of the bord edge would be awesome, but keep the option for scout.
Treeman should just get a point decrease, unless they get some weird special rules.
Eagles are eagles, and should be just the same as the HE ones... SO GET US THE GOD DAMN FEAR MAN!
A MC unit on great stags would also be awesome, but I am not really sure how their stat line, cost and so on should be...

Kindred
Firstly, they should all be cheaper and posibly exclude the option to take sprites
Wardancer kindred: Give them the wardancer rules, and then they are not allowed to take any armor. Allow them to take magic weapons at normal, at the cost of the wardancer weapons rule.
Eternal kindred should be removed, it just doesn't add anything.
Alter kindred should stay, but maybe make the character MI and give a +1 str and t should cost a great deal then?
Scout is fine, but maybe remove the GW restriction
Wild rider kindred shouldn't have the equipment restrictions, and they should get the same special rules as the wild riders
Waywatchers should remove armor options, but let the character shoot in the same way as way watchers, and give them the ambush rule
Glamourweave is just weird, but at least it allows you to put your caster in a forest spirit unit, so unless someone has a great idea, just keep it as it is.

Leogun_91
10-03-2014, 17:52
All units have Foreststrider and hits caused by a forest on a unit in this army are discarded. A unit in a Fungus Forest automatically succeeds all stupidity tests.
ASF on all elfs, regular ward save on forest spirits.
Elf units keep no penalty for move-and-fire and gain quick to fire on all ranged weapons.
Forest Spirits may be deployed in a forest and if this option is chosen they gain a special rule depending on the kind of forest, the special rule is kept for the rest of the game regardless if they remain in the forest or decide to leave it; Ordinary forest (No special rule), Abyssal Wood (Terror), Blood Forest (Frenzy), Fungus Forest (Causes enemies within 8 to have the Stupidity special rule), Venom Thicket (Poison), Wildwood (Hatred).
Fix points costs and equipment options. (Make Gladeguard Longbow a weapon rather than a special rule for simplicity)
Drop kindreds and add wildriderherors and glamourweavers as their own character choices.
Finetune stats and special rules.

mostlyharmless
10-03-2014, 18:01
I like the idea of more forest beasts joining in, like the hounds of Kurnous or wolves. You know what I want to see? More mount options for Wild Riders. I'm thinking bears. Anyone else want to see some bear cavalry?

Tae
10-03-2014, 18:08
I like the idea of more forest beasts joining in, like the hounds of Kurnous or wolves. You know what I want to see? More mount options for Wild Riders. I'm thinking bears. Anyone else want to see some bear cavalry?

It'll be stag riders.

mostlyharmless
10-03-2014, 19:17
It'll be stag riders.

I don't think you comprehend just how awesome bear cavalry would be. They'd be crazed, fanatical, god of the hunt possessed elves riding magical spirit bears of DOOM.

Nixon28/02
10-03-2014, 19:19
So Glade Guard aren't that bad then? My mistake didn't realise, so ASF should suffice then? Seems as if the issue is breaking hordes and just generally fixing models like Wardancers, Wild riders and Warhawk Riders and Forest Spirits of all kinds?

popisdead
10-03-2014, 20:56
Having the Shoot Through Cover (or whatever it's called) would be pretty amazing.

Archon of Death
10-03-2014, 21:49
Actually, wolf, bear, stag, and unicorn cav would be awesome.

King Arthur
10-03-2014, 22:24
I don't think models who are based on shooting such as glade guard should have ASF as it just puts their points up for no purpose. But on most other models it would be really good to see.

WizzyWarlock
10-03-2014, 23:39
Make the Forest Spirit ward save a true ward save.
Give the Wood Elves ASF.
Asrai Archery should also lower cover modifiers by 1, so light cover gives no modifier and hard cover gives -1.
Hit & Run changed to Swoop, passing over an enemy unit and delivering D6 S4 hits per Warhawk Rider, a double 1 results in a S4 hit in return, 3 or more 1's and a Warhawk Rider is lost.
Wizards should have access to more lores, especially the level 2's, and the lore of Athel Loren should be redone.
Eternal Guard should have heavy armour as well as their fighting style, as their models show them in heavy armour, the 5+ heavy armour with the 5+ fighting style would give them a 3+ armour save. Also increase their strength to 4.
Dryads and Wardancers should stay skirmish but automatically disrupt the unit they're attacking as they dive into the unit, throwing confusion and panic over the enemy.
Treekin should be Steadfast when they haven't charged. They put down their roots and go nowhere.
Treemen should be at least half the points, as low as 120-140pts each, and placed in Special. With the ever increasing amount of flaming artillery around, their presence in the army is now more a hindrance than a help.
Waywatchers should gain ambush, sniper and S4 both in combat and with their bows. They also keep their killing blow and can use it with their sniper attack, making them incredibly dangerous to enemy characters.
Wardancers should have a 4+ ward save and MR1, giving them a 3+ ward vs magic spells. They're so agile they even leap away from fireballs. Instead of the shadow dance, have a dance that works the other way and lowers their ward save while giving them additional attacks and/or strength.
Wild Riders should always have two attacks, not just after charging, and also a tough skin of 6+. With scaly skin, mounted and leather armour, that would give them a 4+ armour save and the forest spirit 5+ ward.
An alternative Wild Rider kit should be put into rare and match the Priests of Kurnous from the Orion trilogy. These would be Monstrous Cavalry, likely with S4/T4, 3 attacks and saves of 2+/5++.

boli
11-03-2014, 08:51
Perhaps "Bow of Loren"s could be +0S and +1S at short range and army-wide.

Could have some interesting combinations if waywatchers base S4 or Wyssens cast on a unit.

ChargeAndDie
12-03-2014, 05:42
i think some of you guys don't know how overpriced some of the wood elf army choices cost. Not sure if i can post point costs but when you're paying 120 points for 5 Waywatchers, they better be awesome. In comparison, sisters of averlorn are cheaper and arguably better. Dark Riders at 7 points cheaper than glade riders. I can see the army getting quick to fire instead of no move and shoot penalty (ties in with GW's recent streamlining of rules). The whole army should get glade guard bows, its retarded how scouts and characters lose it. ASF plus a prowess is a given. I can see them getting a sisters unit (maybe combo kit with wardancers). Wild Riders should have 2 attacks base instead of additional 1 attack when not charging. And access to more lores. That would help a lot..

Spiney Norman
12-03-2014, 09:35
i think some of you guys don't know how overpriced some of the wood elf army choices cost. Not sure if i can post point costs but when you're paying 120 points for 5 Waywatchers, they better be awesome. In comparison, sisters of averlorn are cheaper and arguably better. Dark Riders at 7 points cheaper than glade riders. I can see the army getting quick to fire instead of no move and shoot penalty (ties in with GW's recent streamlining of rules). The whole army should get glade guard bows, its retarded how scouts and characters lose it. ASF plus a prowess is a given. I can see them getting a sisters unit (maybe combo kit with wardancers). Wild Riders should have 2 attacks base instead of additional 1 attack when not charging. And access to more lores. That would help a lot..

And I think a lot of folks exaggerate how bad wood elves are for their points cost. Waywatchers, warhawk riders, eternal guard and perhaps wild riders are significantly overcosted to the point where I just don't use them. Wardancers, Glade riders, scouts are slightly over costed but are still good units. Dryads, Glade guard, treekin, the treeman and great eagles are fine and still perform well. These units make up the bulk of my wood elf army and it works well.

To the person who suggested that treemen should halve in point cost, you need a cold dose of reality, with its current profile it is worth at least 250pts, with a true 5+ Ward it would be worth its current points cost.

MOMUS
12-03-2014, 16:04
The only way to improve the wood elf book is to get Tom Richards to rewrite it. :yes:

Alltaken
12-03-2014, 17:30
Eternal guard core, cheaper, heavy armor.
Warhawk riders cheaper and good at something, say múltiple shots 3 or better combat stats or 2 attacks with spears S4.
Kournos 2 attacks, MC, 3+ or 4+ save, 5++
Long bows on every bow, quick to fire all around, asf all around (except trees and animals)
Waywatchers, sniper on champion upgrade, as upgrade itself. New cost, might go along that - 1 for cover gane for these.
All forest spirits 5++ costed acordingly.
New spites, new lore, keep some wood things in it
Low lvl wizards with life and beasts.
Treekin Please stay the same.

From my servoskull

popisdead
12-03-2014, 18:06
120 to 140 pt Treemen would make S3/4 infantry obsolete. That is a huge points drop for something that generally performs reliably well this edition still.

HurrDurr
12-03-2014, 21:38
Flammable and the semi-wardsave make treemen over-priced by a little bit (250 and removing one of those weaknesses would make it a very powerful choice)Close combat should still be a weakness unless invested in so heavily that it puts a serious drain on ranged fire power. No blocks of treekin and huge numbers of gladeguard.For waywatchers give their shots armor piercing and either str 4 all the time, or AP + str 4 half range with multiple shots(2). Increase the currently hugely inflated price. maybe a 5++ if they were 30 points.+1 to Wizzywarlock's ideas

WizzyWarlock
13-03-2014, 14:47
120 to 140 pt Treemen would make S3/4 infantry obsolete. That is a huge points drop for something that generally performs reliably well this edition still.
Really? For 210pts you can get a monster with pretty much similar stats, is unbreakable, and also fires like a stonethrower (Hellcannon). If it stays at 285pts I'd expect it to be throwing rocks, have a solid ward save, be unbreakable and a whole host of other goodies, because if flammable stays it might as well not be on the table.

Poseidal
13-03-2014, 14:50
How about T8, 6 wounds, 3+ save, has 2 bolt throwers it can fire in the same turn?

Spiney Norman
13-03-2014, 15:10
How about T8, 6 wounds, 3+ save, has 2 bolt throwers it can fire in the same turn?

How about a random 'thorn shooting' attack which fires an artillery dice worth of bolt thrower shots ;)

Rake
13-03-2014, 15:43
It seems I am radically at odds with most of the community when it comes to wood elves. They should NOT be a guerrilla force. That cannot be designed in such as way as to lead to a fun experience for both players, especially by games designers as incompetent and arrogant as those working at Games Workshop. An army that shoots and melts away successfuly will be the most hated opponent in any field. And what are the odds that they will design the game well enough to allow wood elves to deal with steadfast hordes? Infinitesimal.

In my opinion wood elves should become a shock assault army at heart with significant shooting, allowing them to play the game we know and love (line up your soldiers and whack each other) with a new twist, mobility and combined charges. Guerrilla is a dead end that leads nowhere good.

Ero-Senin
13-03-2014, 15:58
I think removing flammable and forest spirit ward in favour of a 5+ regen save would go along way to making things more viable. Fire removes regen anyway so it would kill two birds with one stone. However this does seem too logical for GW, they will probably mess it up and make it far more complicated than it needs to be. Are Tomb Kings characters still flamable?

Spiney Norman
13-03-2014, 16:47
It seems I am radically at odds with most of the community when it comes to wood elves. They should NOT be a guerrilla force. That cannot be designed in such as way as to lead to a fun experience for both players, especially by games designers as incompetent and arrogant as those working at Games Workshop. An army that shoots and melts away successfuly will be the most hated opponent in any field. And what are the odds that they will design the game well enough to allow wood elves to deal with steadfast hordes? Infinitesimal.

In my opinion wood elves should become a shock assault army at heart with significant shooting, allowing them to play the game we know and love (line up your soldiers and whack each other) with a new twist, mobility and combined charges. Guerrilla is a dead end that leads nowhere good.

So what we're saying is, instead of putting out a new wood elf army book they could just sell a single page with the following printed at the top
"In order to use your wood elf army in 8th Edition please purchase Warhammer Armies: Dark Elves and use your wood elf models as the nearest equivalent unit from that list."

theunwantedbeing
13-03-2014, 16:51
I'de remove skirmish from Dryads and give them back the old 5th ed shapeshifting rule.

Wardancers woudl lose skirmish but get stats and abilities much like the DE sisters of Slaughter albeit with magical resistance and a solid ward save from their magical tattoo's and they'll have wardancer weapons and retain their dances. ASF dance would be swapped for reducing enemy attacks by 1 per model.

Treemen would get a stat boost in the form of at least increased toughness to 7, strength can be boosted as high as 8.
I'de be tempted to give them unbreakable as well.
No stone thrower or bolt thrower ability though.

Waywatchers would get a noticable points drop along with St4 bows at close range.
Same deal for Glade Riders and Warhawk riders.

I'de make the Forest Dragon a Forest Spirit.
5+ ward negated by magical attacks and/or flaming attacks along with immunity to psychology and magical attacks (including it's breath attack).

Eternal Guard would be St4 infantry and Stubborn all the time.

I'de give them some sort of forest swarm which can be made into a forest spirit.

Ero-Senin
13-03-2014, 17:02
I'de remove skirmish from Dryads and give them back the old 5th ed shapeshifting rule.

Wardancers woudl lose skirmish but get stats and abilities much like the DE sisters of Slaughter albeit with magical resistance and a solid ward save from their magical tattoo's and they'll have wardancer weapons and retain their dances. ASF dance would be swapped for reducing enemy attacks by 1 per model.

Treemen would get a stat boost in the form of at least increased toughness to 7, strength can be boosted as high as 8.
I'de be tempted to give them unbreakable as well.
No stone thrower or bolt thrower ability though.

Waywatchers would get a noticable points drop along with St4 bows at close range.
Same deal for Glade Riders and Warhawk riders.

I'de make the Forest Dragon a Forest Spirit.
5+ ward negated by magical attacks and/or flaming attacks along with immunity to psychology and magical attacks (including it's breath attack).

Eternal Guard would be St4 infantry and Stubborn all the time.

I'de give them some sort of forest swarm which can be made into a forest spirit.

So you're happy with the forest spirit ward save as it is? You don't mind that it is ignored by magical and/or flaming attacks?

Spiney Norman
13-03-2014, 19:56
I'de remove skirmish from Dryads and give them back the old 5th ed shapeshifting rule.

Wardancers woudl lose skirmish but get stats and abilities much like the DE sisters of Slaughter albeit with magical resistance and a solid ward save from their magical tattoo's and they'll have wardancer weapons and retain their dances. ASF dance would be swapped for reducing enemy attacks by 1 per model.

Treemen would get a stat boost in the form of at least increased toughness to 7, strength can be boosted as high as 8.
I'de be tempted to give them unbreakable as well.
No stone thrower or bolt thrower ability though.

Waywatchers would get a noticable points drop along with St4 bows at close range.
Same deal for Glade Riders and Warhawk riders.

I'de make the Forest Dragon a Forest Spirit.
5+ ward negated by magical attacks and/or flaming attacks along with immunity to psychology and magical attacks (including it's breath attack).

Eternal Guard would be St4 infantry and Stubborn all the time.

I'de give them some sort of forest swarm which can be made into a forest spirit.

I could get behind most of that, but I do think it is rather a foregone conclusion that forest spirit ward saves will be brought into line with other daemonic wards and lose the conditional 'can't be taken against magic' clause.

I'd quite like to retain one unit of combat Skirmishers too, just in case they decide to un-nerf Skirmishers in 9th ed, plus, trying to rank up dryads would be no walk in the park...

theunwantedbeing
13-03-2014, 20:35
So you're happy with the forest spirit ward save as it is? You don't mind that it is ignored by magical and/or flaming attacks?
I don't mind the current forest spirit ward save one bit, given how few magical and flaming attacks there are in the game.


I could get behind most of that, but I do think it is rather a foregone conclusion that forest spirit ward saves will be brought into line with other daemonic wards and lose the conditional 'can't be taken against magic' clause.
Probably but this isn't a thread about what we expect to happen, it's about own own idea's of what we'de do with them.
And my idea and hope is that they keep it as it is.


I'd quite like to retain one unit of combat Skirmishers too, just in case they decide to un-nerf Skirmishers in 9th ed, plus, trying to rank up dryads would be no walk in the park...
You'd retain the skirmishing Warhawk Riders who work primarily as a close combat unit.
Also those are both stupid reasons to keep skirmish, especially the latter given that combat skirmishers have to be able to rank up when in combat.

Spiney Norman
13-03-2014, 23:04
You'd retain the skirmishing Warhawk Riders who work primarily as a close combat unit.
Also those are both stupid reasons to keep skirmish, especially the latter given that combat skirmishers have to be able to rank up when in combat.

Do you actually play wood elves? Warhawks are not a unit I would be racing into CC with, they will struggle to put down even a warmachine crew.

The skirmish formation gives dryads added protection from shooting and greater manouvreability (pretty important for a unit which cannot take a musician), skirmish is a definite bonus for them, and combat Skirmishers has traditionally been one of the wood elf 'niches', granted it took a hit from the current rules, but that's no reason to dump the look and feel of your army when we are on the threshold of a new edition.

I'd kind of like to hear your reasons for wanting forest spirit ward saves to remain useless, the number of things that are flaming and magical have markedly increased this edition, especially warmachines with those two properties, I also think it would create a big disconnect in the game if the special rule changes to chaos daemons didn't also reflect on our 'forest daemons', in the same way as there would be a disconnect if our elves didn't get ASF like every other elf in the game.

cyberspite
13-03-2014, 23:33
It seems I am radically at odds with most of the community when it comes to wood elves. They should NOT be a guerrilla force. That cannot be designed in such as way as to lead to a fun experience for both players, especially by games designers as incompetent and arrogant as those working at Games Workshop. An army that shoots and melts away successfuly will be the most hated opponent in any field. And what are the odds that they will design the game well enough to allow wood elves to deal with steadfast hordes? Infinitesimal.

In my opinion wood elves should become a shock assault army at heart with significant shooting, allowing them to play the game we know and love (line up your soldiers and whack each other) with a new twist, mobility and combined charges. Guerrilla is a dead end that leads nowhere good.

I see where you're coming from but I don't think anyone expects a full-on guerilla style army, you just wouldn't be able to do it within the scope of the rules even if you wanted to.

When I think of a warhammer 'guerilla' army I imagine primarily relatively small units that are quite fast and/or manoeuvrable, and able to pack a fair punch either in combat or at range, but are fragile. Now, barring the combat punch that's pretty much how wood elves operate already.

I wouldn't want an army that could run in, crush anything they wanted and run out again without a chance of getting caught. My ideal 'guerilla' wood elves would be an army of specialists, units that are really good at one thing but poor at everything else, similar to aspect warriors, and I don't see a problem with that. I think there's a lot of scope for interaction between units and setting up combos (if wardancers were to disrupt ranks, or dryads count as fighting in a forest for example), but if you're not careful your fragile units could easily be crushed.

I see wood elves, more than any other army, as an army that really needs to pick its fights. Maybe that's not exactly a guerilla army but it's as close as your going to get in warhammer, and IMO much more interesting than your standard rank-up and horde army, and with a few tweaks and bit more added combat punch, perfectly viable.

theunwantedbeing
14-03-2014, 00:05
Do you actually play wood elves? Warhawks are not a unit I would be racing into CC with, they will struggle to put down even a warmachine crew.
That doesn't change that they are primarily a close combat unit.
All you said was you wanted to retain one unit of close combat skirmishers, I pointed out that there was one.

I'de give them at least +1 attack (maybe to both rider AND mount) personally, along with a points deduction of at least 15pts/model.


The skirmish formation gives dryads added protection from shooting and greater manouvreability (pretty important for a unit which cannot take a musician), skirmish is a definite bonus for them, and combat Skirmishers has traditionally been one of the wood elf 'niches', granted it took a hit from the current rules, but that's no reason to dump the look and feel of your army when we are on the threshold of a new edition.
See, you can come up with good reasons to keep skirmish.
Not that moving around hordes of skirmishers is ever enjoyable to do or watch, plus with dryads being toughness 4 with a 5+ ward save (as most shooting isn't magical) they're actually plenty tough enough without the need for the skirmish bonus. As for movement, they only need that if outmanoeuvred, which is unlikely for an elf army.


I'd kind of like to hear your reasons for wanting forest spirit ward saves to remain useless, the number of things that are flaming and magical have markedly increased this edition, especially warmachines with those two properties, I also think it would create a big disconnect in the game if the special rule changes to chaos daemons didn't also reflect on our 'forest daemons', in the same way as there would be a disconnect if our elves didn't get ASF like every other elf in the game.
Eh?

Orcs - didn't gain any flaming/magical attacks except the flaming banner
Empire - same as above, is the Luminark flaming?
Tomb Kings - extra flaming banner, no change otherwise
Daemons - all magical attacks, still all magical attacks
Dark Elves - I guess you can take more hydra's than before, they have a flaming breath weapon
Warriors of Chaos - I guess they got a few more flaming breath weapons and a unit of monstrous cavalry with access to ensorcelled weapons
Dwarves - same as before, they could take flaming war machines, they still can
Vampire counts - they got hexwraiths added, but they're just one unit and forest spirits in combat mince them easily like they do other etherals
Bretonnions - no new rules, they just got access to the flaming banner

I guess you must play daemons and knight heavy warriors of chaos all the time to find them so worthless.

As for them being forest daemons...where is their instability rule?

WizzyWarlock
14-03-2014, 00:58
The Forest Spirits have it pretty bad, I find fielding Treemen now is just free points for my opponent. Here's a list of the worst offenders for Wood Elves:

Chaos Dwarfs - K'Daii Destroyer (It's a fire daemon which means flaming magical attacks) / Hellcannon (Magical stone thrower means no saves and D6 wounds straight through) / K'Daii Fireborn, Magma Cannon - we'll just stop there.
Daemons - Skull Cannon of Khorne (magical flaming S10 cannon which does D6 wounds, that's 2-12 wounds to our poor Treeman, no save)
Dwarfs - Warmachines (Magical flaming cannons or whatever else they want to attach runes to. 1 dead Treeman per turn)
Empire - Luminark of Hysh (S8, D3 wounds, magical, flaming..)
High Elves - Flamespyre Phoenix (flaming magical attacks, fly over attack) / Sisters of Avelorn (magical flaming arrows - only S4 but enough of those is enough to drop a Treeman in a turn)
Lizardmen - Salamander Packs (flaming attacks, but not so bad)
Skaven - Warp Lightning Cannon (magical cannon that does D6 wounds) / Doomwheel (possible 3 S10 magical hits with D6 wounds each) / Warpfire Thrower (S5 flaming, magical, D3 wounds per hit)
Tomb Kings - Screaming Skull Catapult (flaming magical catapult, S10, D6 wounds under the hole) / Casket of Souls (magical attack, no armour saves)
Vampire Counts - Terrorgheist (magical attack, no armour saves, ignores toughness)
Warriors of Chaos - Hellcannon (see Chaos Dwarfs)

And of course, on top of that lot the Wood Elves are also dodging the magic that's flying their way, as every magical missile ignores the Forest Spirit ward save, while the ever popular Lore of Light also has its fair share of flaming spells to add on top, not to mention Lore of Fire. And of course there's Shadow and Death with Pit of Shades and Purple Sun - the Tree's aren't exactly the quickest things on two.. branches. So sure, while that lot is bad for anyone, I think the Forest Spirits have it twice as bad as they also lose any protection they might have had from the attacks while in most cases suffer double the number of wounds that other armies might have taken.

Flammable is a horrible rule to add to any model, but one that costs 285pts and is little more than 5 attacks and a thunderstomp, with the amount of flaming magical attacks available, is just criminal.

SpanielBear
14-03-2014, 03:01
I see where you're coming from but I don't think anyone expects a full-on guerilla style army, you just wouldn't be able to do it within the scope of the rules even if you wanted to.

When I think of a warhammer 'guerilla' army I imagine primarily relatively small units that are quite fast and/or manoeuvrable, and able to pack a fair punch either in combat or at range, but are fragile. Now, barring the combat punch that's pretty much how wood elves operate already.

I wouldn't want an army that could run in, crush anything they wanted and run out again without a chance of getting caught. My ideal 'guerilla' wood elves would be an army of specialists, units that are really good at one thing but poor at everything else, similar to aspect warriors, and I don't see a problem with that. I think there's a lot of scope for interaction between units and setting up combos (if wardancers were to disrupt ranks, or dryads count as fighting in a forest for example), but if you're not careful your fragile units could easily be crushed.

I see wood elves, more than any other army, as an army that really needs to pick its fights. Maybe that's not exactly a guerilla army but it's as close as your going to get in warhammer, and IMO much more interesting than your standard rank-up and horde army, and with a few tweaks and bit more added combat punch, perfectly viable.

I like your thinking. I agree, Eith WE, it's not about heavy grinding units, or, to be fair, all shooting all the time. Like you say, each unit should have a specific job that it excels in, and it should be down to the skill of the player to ensure the units get to do it.

All that said, we do need a close combat boost. With a lot of our units, it's a case of being so close but not quite there.

And if Wild Riders get to become even half as good as the Dark Elf Warlock dudes, I will be an extremely happy SpanielBear. I may even bounce.

Sir Didymus
14-03-2014, 07:36
I'd just change the skirmish rules to give them back their fluid style of combat.

Ero-Senin
14-03-2014, 09:51
The Forest Spirits have it pretty bad, I find fielding Treemen now is just free points for my opponent. Here's a list of the worst offenders for Wood Elves:

Chaos Dwarfs - K'Daii Destroyer (It's a fire daemon which means flaming magical attacks) / Hellcannon (Magical stone thrower means no saves and D6 wounds straight through) / K'Daii Fireborn, Magma Cannon - we'll just stop there.
Daemons - Skull Cannon of Khorne (magical flaming S10 cannon which does D6 wounds, that's 2-12 wounds to our poor Treeman, no save)
Dwarfs - Warmachines (Magical flaming cannons or whatever else they want to attach runes to. 1 dead Treeman per turn)
Empire - Luminark of Hysh (S8, D3 wounds, magical, flaming..)
High Elves - Flamespyre Phoenix (flaming magical attacks, fly over attack) / Sisters of Avelorn (magical flaming arrows - only S4 but enough of those is enough to drop a Treeman in a turn)
Lizardmen - Salamander Packs (flaming attacks, but not so bad)
Skaven - Warp Lightning Cannon (magical cannon that does D6 wounds) / Doomwheel (possible 3 S10 magical hits with D6 wounds each) / Warpfire Thrower (S5 flaming, magical, D3 wounds per hit)
Tomb Kings - Screaming Skull Catapult (flaming magical catapult, S10, D6 wounds under the hole) / Casket of Souls (magical attack, no armour saves)
Vampire Counts - Terrorgheist (magical attack, no armour saves, ignores toughness)
Warriors of Chaos - Hellcannon (see Chaos Dwarfs)

And of course, on top of that lot the Wood Elves are also dodging the magic that's flying their way, as every magical missile ignores the Forest Spirit ward save, while the ever popular Lore of Light also has its fair share of flaming spells to add on top, not to mention Lore of Fire. And of course there's Shadow and Death with Pit of Shades and Purple Sun - the Tree's aren't exactly the quickest things on two.. branches. So sure, while that lot is bad for anyone, I think the Forest Spirits have it twice as bad as they also lose any protection they might have had from the attacks while in most cases suffer double the number of wounds that other armies might have taken.

Flammable is a horrible rule to add to any model, but one that costs 285pts and is little more than 5 attacks and a thunderstomp, with the amount of flaming magical attacks available, is just criminal.

Don't forget lore of metal. Searing doom wounds a treeman on a 3+ with no ward save and does double wounds. It is a sig spell for god's sake!

Poseidal
14-03-2014, 11:48
Treemen should be able to bat back Cannonballs and Stones with a spare tree like in baseball.

It takes an I check (so not likely to actually hit) but with a success, you place the template or bounce point originating from the Treeman as if the Treeman was the war machine.

Lastavenger
14-03-2014, 13:13
One of things that comes to my mind when I think about WE is best fast cavalry in warhammer world. IMO curently WE have weakest land fast cav out of all elven armies (I don't count warhawk riders who fly, but are also too expensive). I'm talking about simple spear and bow/repeater crossbow type. There is no reason to compere rest of them to warlocks (who are that broken) because they are rare. All units share statline. Glade riders have few advantages: longbows, no penalty for moving and shooting and forest strider. Ellyrian reavers are cheaper, better in close combat (ASF) and have more survivability (5+). Dark riders have more AP shots, better armor (5+ and access to 4+) and even better close combat (remember that martial prowess is better, but to benefit from it HE have to have bigger unit, something you want to avoid for expandable fast cav unit. Murderous prowess works even if you use small unit). I forgot to mention DR are also much cheaper than GR. GR can work, but it is safe to say that other elven units would do the similar job cheaper and maybe better. How much points in your opinion they (current rules + ASF) need to cost, to be able to perform other roles than expandable chaff?

theunwantedbeing
14-03-2014, 13:40
How much points in your opinion they (current rules + ASF) need to cost, to be able to perform other roles than expandable chaff?

16pts without their bows, 19pts with them seems fair.
Although they do lack light armour of the others so perhaps those numbers need to go down a point.

SpanielBear
14-03-2014, 15:42
One of things that comes to my mind when I think about WE is best fast cavalry in warhammer world. IMO curently WE have weakest land fast cav out of all elven armies (I don't count warhawk riders who fly, but are also too expensive). I'm talking about simple spear and bow/repeater crossbow type. There is no reason to compere rest of them to warlocks (who are that broken) because they are rare. All units share statline. Glade riders have few advantages: longbows, no penalty for moving and shooting and forest strider. Ellyrian reavers are cheaper, better in close combat (ASF) and have more survivability (5+). Dark riders have more AP shots, better armor (5+ and access to 4+) and even better close combat (remember that martial prowess is better, but to benefit from it HE have to have bigger unit, something you want to avoid for expandable fast cav unit. Murderous prowess works even if you use small unit). I forgot to mention DR are also much cheaper than GR. GR can work, but it is safe to say that other elven units would do the similar job cheaper and maybe better. How much points in your opinion they (current rules + ASF) need to cost, to be able to perform other roles than expandable chaff?

I have to say I agree with you about the Wood Elves being the best at fast cav, and also that glade riders need a points reduction (18 points for the raw model. Upgrade bows to Glade Guard bows for 2pts per model. Talismanic tattoos for +4 points per model. Wood Elves should be lacking in armour, but plenty of access to basic ward saves- nothing better than a 5+ ward for non-character models, mind)

However, I also think you are selling Wood Elves short. As well as Glade Riders, Warhawks can perform a similar role currently for equal points, and Wild Riders are rather good fast cavalry, all things considered.
Both these units need some updating- Warhawks especially. But with these three units and great eagles, Wood Elves can rule in terms of mobility- as it should be. To paraphrase a dialogue between a certain Greek City State and a would-be invader:

"If we catch the Wood Elves, we will burn your forest, slaughter your people, and salt the earth that nothing grows again!"
"If."

Lastavenger
14-03-2014, 17:07
However, I also think you are selling Wood Elves short. As well as Glade Riders, Warhawks can perform a similar role currently for equal points, and Wild Riders are rather good fast cavalry, all things considered.
Both these units need some updating- Warhawks especially. But with these three units and great eagles, Wood Elves can rule in terms of mobility- as it should be. I think that wild riders are useful, rather good unit and warhawks, thanks to flying are decent (anything with flying is better). I would like to see most iconic horse archers of old world something more than simple chaff. I really like images in book that show 8 GR. It would be really nice if it was playable to field units of 10 guys, units that could do some real damage and not only redirect. Others have small units of fast cav, WE should be able to field big units of fast cav. GR should be unique from others FC, like being able to shoot while charging (-1 to hit and kills count to CR).

popisdead
14-03-2014, 17:45
Really? For 210pts you can get a monster with pretty much similar stats, is unbreakable, and also fires like a stonethrower (Hellcannon). If it stays at 285pts I'd expect it to be throwing rocks, have a solid ward save, be unbreakable and a whole host of other goodies, because if flammable stays it might as well not be on the table.

A T6 S6 at your points level makes nobles also useless.

Nixon28/02
14-03-2014, 19:30
What about Wardancers being kind of like Sisters of Slaughter in that they disrupt ranks? Or maybe that being one of their dances?

Imperator64
14-03-2014, 20:59
I'm pretty sure it was the spartans to the athenians. Hence Laconic wit.

SpanielBear
14-03-2014, 21:43
I'm pretty sure it was the spartans to the athenians. Hence Laconic wit.

Have a cookie. :)

bigbiggles
16-03-2014, 07:52
Did I misread some posts? Or are people saying that flaming attacks also ignore forest spirit saves as well? As for ranked dryads, it would just be too hard to physically rank the current models to make that change likely.

strongbow
16-03-2014, 09:06
How do people feel about Hatred (Beastmen), army-wide?

Nixon28/02
16-03-2014, 09:47
Sounds quite fluffy and would probably be something they may do, not sure how much it would affect the game though

WizzyWarlock
16-03-2014, 10:04
As for ranked dryads, it would just be too hard to physically rank the current models to make that change likely.
I've heard this a lot and don't know why people think this, maybe they just built their Dryads in odd locations, but I actually store all my Dryads ranked up on a shelf as it saves space, and I have no problems at all pushing them together (except for the odd one or two). They actually look much nicer ranked up on movement trays, I think I'd prefer it.

Methios
16-03-2014, 10:48
- ASF
- normal 5 + ward save on forest spirits.
- Some form of ethereal cav.
- Some form of long range str 4 shooting. (not in core)
- A (better) way to deal with high armor saves.
- A better lore.
- point reductions
- Warhawk riders need an overhaul.
- Some other form of r&f models. (most seem to think this will be dryads)

gogs78
16-03-2014, 11:00
A `no armour save` dance for wardancers is a must.

Some kind of spell you can cast on a forest and `raise` a unit of dryads? Think that would be quite a good addition.

They definitely need quite a few tweeks here and there but they are nowhere near as bad as some people make out.

SpanielBear
16-03-2014, 12:04
I've heard this a lot and don't know why people think this, maybe they just built their Dryads in odd locations, but I actually store all my Dryads ranked up on a shelf as it saves space, and I have no problems at all pushing them together (except for the odd one or two). They actually look much nicer ranked up on movement trays, I think I'd prefer it.

I think I see where they're coming from; it's a combination of the reaching arms and the tree-trunk 'back banners'.
I agree they look awesome ranked though. I run mine in a faux-block, using empty bases between each model. It means they still skirmish, but can fit on a movement tray and it is much easier to see how they rank up when they reach combat.

Lord Shadowheart
16-03-2014, 16:03
Doubt it'd ever happen, but I'd like to see bows have Armour piercing as standard, then getting S4 at short range as well. Would go a long way to helping them deal with the abundance of 1+ or 2+ Armour saves around these days.

Spiney Norman
17-03-2014, 08:12
How do people feel about Hatred (Beastmen), army-wide?

I'd be less enthusiastic about that, it doesn't really fit more than giving empire army-wide hatred (warriors of chaos) for example, generally the 'good' factions have a grudge against chaos, but I think the hatred rule ought to be reserved for really special grudges, like dwarfs vs greenskins. I also think its pretty good for the game to keep the opponent-conditional bonuses to a minimum where possible for the sake of game balance.

Maybe tying it into a special character could work, so an army led by Ariel or Scarloc would hate beastmen?

Wychwethl
17-03-2014, 16:04
Hi all,

I'm sure this has been done many times, but I'm looking for some constructive feedback on my ideas for a in-house army book to bring the WEs more in line with other 8th edition books. I've tried to increase the power level to allow them to be competitive, but retain the old play-style and strengths and weaknesses of the list. Would you be happy with this as a next edition?
Also, if this were the shape of things for the next edition book, how would this change your current army selection?

Wood Elf Army Book - 8th Edition Upgrade

Army special rules:

Guardians of the forest: Models with this special rule have the Forest Strider special rule. In addition, if the majority of the models in a unit have this special rule, and it is fleeing at the start of the turn, take a leadership test. If the test is passed, the unit rallies as normal. If the test is failed, the unit may choose to continue fleeing in the original direction, or instead may make a free pivot around the centre of the unit to face the nearest forest. The unit will then flee directly towards the forest 2D6".
In addition, If the majority of the models in a unit have this special rule, and any part of their flee move brings them into contact with a forest, it may immediately attempt to rally as if it was the start of the turn. If they begin their turn in contact with a forest, they may reroll their rally test.

Forest Dwellers: Before deployment, and after all scenery has been placed, the wood elf player may place an extra Forrest terrain piece of up to 6" diameter anywhere within 8" of the wood elf deployment zone. This is a standard forest. If playing a special scenario without a dedicated deployment zone, this rule has no effect.
In addition, up to one unit with the Guardians of the Forest special rule may deploy within this forest, even if it is not within the deployment zone.

Forest Spirits: Models with this special rule who are at least partially within a forest automatically pass any leadership tests they are required to make. Only characters with the Forest Spirit special rule may join units of Forest Spirits.

Earth Pulse (number): If a model with this special rule contacts a forest at any stage of their turn, including if they begin their turn within a forest, they may immediately roll a number of dice equal to the difference between their current number of wounds and their starting number of wounds. For every roll equal to or higher than the number in brackets, the model regains a wound.

Asrai Archery: When a model with this special rule makes a shooting attack with a bow or longbow from the armoury of Athel Loren, or a magical bow from Heirlooms of the Forest, these weapons gain the quick to fire and armour piercing special rules. In addition, any to hit rolls of 1 may be rerolled when making shooting attacks.

Armoury of Athel Loren:

Asrai Longbow: Ranged weapon. 36" range. S3. Volley fire.

Asrai Shortbow: Ranged weapon. 24" range. S3. Volley fire.

Saearath: Close combat weapon. The Saearath is a special halberd which also gives it's weirder a 6+ parry save.

Waywatcher Cloak: -1 to hit the wearer with ranged attacks.

Beasts of Athel Loren:

Forest Dragon:

M6 WS6 BS0 S6 T6 W6 I3 A5 Ld8

Troop type: Monster

Special Rules: Fly, Large Target, Scaly Skin 3+, Terror, S4 Breath Weapon.

Great Eagle:

M2 WS5 BS0 S4 T4 W3 I4 A2 Ld8

Troop Type: Monstrous Beast

Special Rules: Fly

Great Stag:

M7 WS5 BS0 S5 T4 W3 I4 A2 Ld8

Troop Type: Monstrous Beast

Special Rules: Fear, Impact hits (1).

Unicorn:

M8 WS5 BS0 S4 T4 W3 I5 A2 Ld8

Troop Type: Monstrous Beast

Special Rules: Fear, Impact Hits (1), Devastating Charge, 5+ ward save to itself and rider.

Elven Steed:

M9 WS3 BS0 S3 T3 W1 I4 A1 Ld5

Troop Type: War beast

Special Rules: Fast cavalry.



Army List:

Lords:

Wood Elf Highborn: 140pts

M5 WS7 BS8 S4 T3 W3 I8 A4 Ld10

Troop Type: Infantry

Equipment: Hand weapon, Asrai Longbow.
Special Rules: Guardians of the Forest, Asrai Archery, Always Strikes First.

Options: May take light armour for 4pts.
May take any one of the following:
Shield - 4pts
Additional Hand Weapon - 3pts
Saearath - 5pts
Great Weapon - 10pts
If mounted may take one of the following:
Spear - 4pts
Lance - 10pts

Mount Options:

May be mounted on one of the following:

Forest Dragon - 300pts
Great Eagle - 50pts
Great Stag - 50pts
Elven Steed - 10pts

May take magic items totalling up to 100pts.

Spellweaver: 185pts

M5 WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W3 I5 A1 Ld9

Troop Type: Infantry

Equipment: Hand Weapon.
Special Rules: Guardians if the Forest, Asrai Archery, Always Strikes First, Blessing of the Forest Mother (+1 to all casting attempts from the lore of Athel Loren).

A spellweaver is a level 3 wizard who casts spells from the Lore of Athel Loren, the Lore of Beasts, or the Lore of Life.

Options: May upgrade to a level 4 wizard for +35pts.

Mount Options:

May be mounted on one of the following:
Unicorn - 70pts
Great Eagle - 50pts
Great Stag - 50pts
Elven Steed - 10pts

May take magic items totalling up to 100pts.

Treeman Ancient: 350pts

M4 WS6 BS3 S7 T6 W6 I1 A6 Ld10

Troop Type: Monster (character)

Special Rules: Guardians of the Forest, Earth Pulse (4+), Forest Spirit, Hatred, Flammable, Scaly Skin 3+, Terror

May be given Gifts of the Forest totalling up to 100pts

Branchwraith: 100pts

M6 WS6 BS4 S4 T4 W3 I8 A4 Ld9

Troop Type: Infantry

Special Rules: Guardians if the Forest, Forest Spirit, Hatred, Fear, Scaly skin 5+, Tempered Aggression (if the branchwraith joins a unit of dryads, the unit no longer has the frenzy special rule, but gains the hatred special rule instead).

Options: May be a level 1 wizard using spells from Athel Loren for 35pts. May upgrade to a level 2 for 70pts.

May be given Gifts of the Forest totalling up to 50pts.

Heroes:

Noble: 70pts

M5 WS6 BS7 S4 T3 W2 I7 A3 Ld9

Troop Type: Infantry

Equipment: Hand weapon, Asrai Longbow.
Special Rules: Guardians of the Forest, Asrai Archery, Always Strikes First.

Options: May take light armour for 4pts.
May take any one of the following:
Shield - 3pts
Additional Hand Weapon - 2pts
Saearath - 4pts
Great Weapon - 8pts
If mounted may take:
Spear - 4pts

May be the battle standard bearer for 25pts. If so, may take a magic banner up to 100pts. If the noble takes a magic banner he can have no other magic items.

Mount Options:

May be mounted on one of the following:

Great Eagle - 50pts
Great Stag - 50pts
Elven Steed - 10pts

May take magic items totalling up to 50pts.

Spellsinger: 80pts

M5 WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W2 I5 A1 Ld8

Troop Type: Infantry

Equipment: Hand Weapon.
Special Rules: Guardians if the Forest, Asrai Archery, Always Strikes First, Blessing of the Forest Mother (+1 to all casting attempts from the lore of Athel Loren).

A spellsinger is a level 1 wizard who casts spells from the Lore of Athel Loren, the Lore of Beasts, or the Lore of Life.

Options: May upgrade to a level 2 wizard for +35pts.

Mount Options:

May be mounted on one of the following:
Great Eagle - 50pts
Great Stag - 50pts
Elven Steed - 10pts

May take magic items totalling up to 50pts.

Treeman Oakheart: 280pts

M4 WS5 BS3 S6 T6 W5 I2 A5 Ld9

Troop Type: Monster (character)

Special Rules: Guardians of the Forest, Earth Pulse (4+), Forest Spirit, Hatred, Flammable, Scaly Skin 4+, Terror

May be given Gifts of the Forest totalling up to 50pts.

Core:

Glade Guard: 12pts per model

M5 WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A1 Ld8
Hawkeye - M5 WS4 BS5 S3 T3 W1 I5 A1 Ld8

Troop Type: Infantry.
Unit size: 10+

Equipment: Hand weapons, Asrai Longbows.
Special Rules: Guardians of the Forest, Asrai Archery, Always Strikes First.

Options:
May take light armour - 1pt per model.
Up to half the number of glade guard units in the army (rounding fractions up) may be upgraded to have the skirmishes special rule for +1pt per model.

Command Options:

May include a hawkeye (champion) - 10pts
May include a musician - 10pts
May include a standard bearer - 10pts

One unit of glade guard may have a magic banner totalling up to 25pts.

Glade Riders: 19pts per model

M5 WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A1 Ld8
Champion: M5 WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A2 Ld8

Troop Type: Cavalry
Unit Size: 5+

Equipment: Spears, Asrai Shortbows.
Mounts: Elven Steeds
Special Rules: Guardians of the Forest, Asrai Archery, Always Strikes First, Fast Cavalry.

Options:
May take light armour - 2pts per model.
May take shields - 2pt per model

Command Options:

May include a champion - 10pts
May include a musician - 10pts
May include a standard bearer - 10pts

One unit of glade riders may have a magic banner totalling up to 25pts.

0-1 Eternal Guard: 13pts per model

M5 WS5 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A1 Ld9
Champion M5 WS5 BS4 S3 T3 W1 A2 Ld9

Troop Type: Infantry.
Unit size: 10+

Equipment: Saearath, Light armour
Special Rules: Guardians of the Forest, Stubborn, Always Strikes First.

Command Options:

May include a champion - 10pts
May include a musician - 10pts
May include a standard bearer - 10pts

May have a magic banner totalling up to 50pts.

Dryads: 14pts per model

M6 WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I6 A2 Ld5

Troop Type: Infantry.
Unit size: 10+

Special Rules: Guardians of the Forest, Fear, Forest Spirit, Frenzy, Scaly Skin 5+.

Special:

Warhawk Riders: 40pts per model

Rider: M5 WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A1 Ld8
Sky Hunter: M5 WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A2 Ld8
Warhawk: M2 WS4 BS0 S4 T3 W2 I4 A2 Ld7

Troop Type: Monstrous Cavalry.
Unit Size: 3+

Equipment: Spears, Asrai Shortbows
Mounts: Warhawks
Special Rules: Guardians of the Forest, Asrai Archery, Always Strikes First, Flying Cavalry.

Options:
May take light armour - 2pts per model.
May take shields - 2pt per model

Command Options:

May include a Sky hunter (champion) - 10pts
The champion may take a magic weapon up to 25pts

Waywatchers: 18pts per model

M5 WS5 BS5 S3 T3 W1 I5 A1 Ld9
Champion - M5 WS5 BS6 S3 T3 W1 I5 A1 Ld9

Troop Type: Infantry
Unit Size: 5+

Equipment: Hand Weapons, Asrai Longbows, Waywatcher Cloaks.
Special Rules: Guardians of the Forest, Asrai Archery, Always Strikes First, Scout, Skirmish, Hunter's shot (shooting attacks gain killing blow within 12").

Options:
May take an additional hand weapon - 1pt per model.

Command Options:

May include a champion - 10pts
The champion may take a magic weapon up to 25pts.

Tree Kin: 60pts per model

M5 WS4 BS0 S5 T4 W3 I2 A3 Ld7

Troop Type: Monstrous Infantry
Unit Size: 3+

Special Rules: Guardians of the Forest, Fear, Forest Spirit, Scaly Skin 4+, Hatred, Flammable.

Wardancers: 16pts per model

M5 WS5 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I6 A1 Ld8
Troupe Leader M5 WS5 BS4 S3 T3 I6 A2 Ld8

Troop Type: Infantry
Unit Size: 5+

Equipment: 2 hand weapons.

Special Rules: Guardians of the Forest, Always Strikes First, Skirmish, Preternatural Grace (5+ ward versus shooting attacks), Leaping Acrobatics (in combat, wardancers in the second rank may make their full compliment of supporting attacks, as if they were in the front rank of the combat. This is an exception to the rule that models can only ever make one supporting attack. Models in the third rank may make one supporting attack each. Models in the fourth and subsequent ranks may not attack). Wardancers (at the start of each close combat phase, choose one of these effects. You may not choose the same effect twice in a row):

- The unit gains killing blow
- Each model in the unit gains +1 attack
- Enemies suffer a -2 to hit penalty in close combat, but each wardancer may only make one attack each irrespective of any modifiers.

Options:
May replace their additional hand weapon for a Saearath for free.

Command Options:

May include a champion - 10pts
The champion may have a magic weapon totalling up to 25pts
May include a musician - 10pts
May include a standard bearer - 10pts

Great Eagles: 50pts per model

M2 WS5 BS0 S4 T4 W3 I4 A2 Ld8

Troop Type: Monstrous Beast
Unit size: 1-3

Special Rules: Fly

Rare:

Wild Riders of Kurnous: 30pts per model

M5 WS5 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A2 Ld9
Champion: M5 WS5 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A3 Ld9

Troop Type: Cavalry
Unit Size: 5+

Equipment: Hand Weapons, Lances, Shields, Light armour
Mounts: Elven Steeds
Special Rules: Guardians of the Forest, Always Strikes First, Fast Cavalry, Hatred.

Command Options:

May include a champion - 10pts
May include a musician - 10pts
May include a standard bearer - 10pts
May take a magic banner totalling up to 75pts.

Stag Riders of Kurnous: 65pts per model

M5 WS5 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A2 Ld9
Champion: M5 WS5 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A3 Ld9

Troop Type: Monstrous cavalry
Unit Size: 5+

Equipment: Hand Weapons, Lances, Shields, Light armour
Mounts: Great Stags
Special Rules: Guardians of the Forest, Always Strikes First, Hatred.

Command Options:

May include a champion - 10pts
May include a musician - 10pts
May include a standard bearer - 10pts
May take a magic banner totalling up to 75pts.

Treeman: 200pts

M4 WS5 BS3 S5 T5 W5 I3 A4 Ld8

Troop Type: Monster (character)

Special Rules: Guardians of the Forest, Earth Pulse (5+), Forest Spirit, Hatred, Flammable, Scaly Skin 4+, Terror

May be given Gifts of the Forest totalling up to 25pts.


Heirlooms of the Forest (magic items)

Bow of Athel Loren: Magic Weapon. This is a magical bow with the following profile:
Range 48", strength as user +1, multiple shots equal to bearer's attack characteristic. 60pts.

Bow of the Great Elm: Magic Weapon. This is a magical bow with the following profile:
Range 36", S5, Multiple wounds d3. 30 pts.


Shroud of Dusk: Magic Armour. +1 armour save and confers a -2 modifier to hit the bearer with shooting and close combat attacks. 50pts

Oaken Armour: Magic Armour. Gives the bearer a 4+ Armour save and a 5+ Ward. 30 pts.

Wand of Wych Elm: Arcane Item. The bearer may reroll any failed dispel attempts. 50pts.

Talisman of Arial: Arcane Item. One use only. The bearer may disregard an irresistible force roll. The spell is not cast with irresistible force, and does not cause a miscast. 15pts.

Fletches of the Eagle Lord: Enchanted item. One use only. The bearer may use the Fletches of the Eagle Lord at the start if any friendly shooting phase. In this phase any shooting attacks the bearer makes with an Asrai Longbow, Asrai shortbow, or magical bow from the Heirlooms of the Forest will automatically hit. 10pts.

Hail of Doom Arrow: Enchanted item. One use only. If the bearer is equipped with an Asrai Longbow, Asrai Shortbow, or a magical bow from the Heirlooms of the Forest, he may fire the Hail of Doom arrow instead of making his normal shooting attack. The Hail of Doom Arrow has a 48" range, and automatically hits the target unit, causing 3d6 S3 armour piercing hits. 40pts.

Banner of the Hunt: Magic Banner. The bearer and his unit have a 5+ ward save and the devastating charge special rule. 75pts.

Twilight Standard: The bearer and his unit gain the ambushers special rule. 50pts.

Gifts of the forest:

Treemen, Treeman Oakhearts, Treeman Ancients, and Branchwraiths may take Gifts if the Forest up to the points total indicated in their army list entry. Each model may take more than one Gift if the Forest, and unlike magic items you may have duplicates of the same gift within the army. Treemen, Treeman Oakhearts, and Treeman Ancients may take gifts labelled "Treemen only".

Mystical Sapwood: Treemen only. The model loses the Flammable Special Rule. 25pts.

Strangleroots: The model gains a shooting attack with the following profile:

Range 12" S4 multiple shots 5. 25 pts.

Thickened Bark: The model adds +1 to its scaly skin save. 15pts

Spider Infestation: All shooting and Close combat attacks made by this model have the poisoned attacks special rule. 25pts.

Mystical heartwood: The model gains +1 toughness. 40pts.

Hinkypunks: Enemies in base contact with the wearer suffer -1 to all their to hit rolls in close combat. 30pts.

Bogart: Treemen only. Counts as a rider with the following profile:
M- WS5 BS0 S4 T4 W2 I5 A3 Ld-
If the Bogart is killed the Treeman does not need to take a monster reaction test. Use the treeman's leadership. 40pts.

Lord of the Forest: Any units with the Forest Spirit special rule within 12" of The Lord of the Forest gain the unbreakable special rule and automatically pass all other leadership tests they are required to take. 100pts.

The Lore of Athel Loren:

Lore Attribute: Any spells targeting a unit of war beasts, cavalry, monstrous cavalry, monstrous beasts, monsters, or Forest spirits from the Wood Elf Army book have their casting values reduced by 1. In addition, for each spell from the lore of Athel Loren successfully cast, one model with the Forest spirit special rule within 18" of the bearer may regain one wound, up to its maximum starting number of wounds.

Signature Spell: Treesinging: Augment. May cast on any Forest within 18". The caster may move the forest up to 6" in any direction. Any enemy models in the Forest at either the start or the end of the forests move must take a dangerous terrain test with a -1 modifier. Any friendly unit that is entirely within the Forest may move with the forest. Casting value 8+. The spell may be boosted to move the Forest up to 12", in which case the casting value is increased to 12+.

1. Cloak of Concealment: Augment. Range 18". Any shooting attacks against the target unit suffer a -1 to hit penalty. Cast on a 5+

2. Lash of Thorns: Direct Damage. May be cast on an enemy unit within 12" of the caster, or within 12" of a Forest in the mage's forward arc. The target unit suffers 2d6 S4 hits. Cast on an 8+

3. Twilight Aspect: Augment. Range 18". The target unit gains the ethereal special rule until the end of the caster's next magic phase, but may not shoot or attack. Cast on an 8+

4. Ariel's Blessing: Augment. Range 12". The target unit gains regen. Remains in play. Cast on a 15+.

5. Cage of Vines: Hex. Range 24". The target unit halves it's movement value, and only rolls 1d6 for any flee moves it makes. In addition, the unit may not charge. These effects last until the start of the caster's next magic phase. Cast on a 15+

6. Rebellious Nature: Hex. Range 18". The target unit treats all terrain, including open terrain, as dangerous. In addition, all models in the target unit must pass an initiative test or suffer a strength 3 hit with no armour saves allowed, unless the unit is at least partially within a Forest, river, marsh, lake or other water terrain feature, in which case each model in the unit must pass an initiative test or suffer a s6 hit with no armour saves allowed. Cast on 18+
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Rezhnek
22-03-2014, 11:06
A lot of what people are suggesting make a lot of sense, I have played wood elves through a lot of versions of WFB and I would love to see them going back to being truly feral. At the mo they are just forest HE. The hounds of kurnous chaff idea could give way to bringing back beastmasters and their hunting packs , rules along the lines of the lizardmen hunting packs. I even have the models still kicking around. Talking about MC I would love to see stag cavalry I reckon they would look awesome, but the background to stags states they are rare beasts only seen once or twice in a generation, I think it more likely if they go down that route that wild riders will get made MC with the models the size of the Tyrion one, the books all just describe them as very large elves riding mighty steeds?? Of course this is expecting GW to stick to their own backgrounds

Kindreds need to go nice idea but why are we paying 85 points of more to ride a stag? the model is nice but on points alone my highborn rides an eagle. The same with spites they need a major revamp some are just never used.

I would like to see some of the special characters like Scarloc and Naith make a return or either of the older beast master characters like Skaw with his falcons. Glade Guard are great as they are the idea to let them all fire if in a block a sort of improved volley fire is viable but don't make them ST4 for full range. Treemen do need a reduction in points probably down to 250 and lose the tree singing ability.

Ward saves on all forest spirits become a true ward save otherwise leave them alone. Points costs are too high but that is the legacy of being released in that version. Make eternal guard either WS 4 if core or WS5 if special puts them on a par with other elf races elites that way, if they do go to core down to 10 points otherwise we may get lucky if they keep them at 12.

Scouts needs to be their own unit type and scrap the must have more glade guard than you have scouts but they definitely need to come down from 17 points otherwise bite the bullet and pay the extra for the waywatchers. Speaking of which they shoudl only get the bonus negative to hit if in cover of some sort they are forest stalkers.

Also why not allow warhawks as a mount so characters can join the units.

Anyway just some ideas to throw out there

Spiney Norman
22-03-2014, 12:46
Kindreds need to go nice idea but why are we paying 85 points of more to ride a stag? the model is nice but on points alone my highborn rides an eagle. The same with spites they need a major revamp some are just never used.

Kindred do not need to go, and the 35pts you pay for the WR kindred is so much more than a stag-tax, it gives you the Forest spirit ward save, tattoos, fury of Kurnous, itp and the ability to join Forest Spirit units. It might be fair to say that some of the points costs of the kindreds need serious attention, but that is the case with the entire army list. Part of me wonders if they will ditch the kindred system in favour of specific hero/lord characters that are tied to the various kindred, rather like they did with the high/dark elf characters which are character versions of key units (Loremaster: swords masters, Fleetmaster: Corsairs, handmaiden: sisters of avelorn etc). They actually wouldn't need to do this to too many of them, and models already exist for the way watcher/wardancer/wild rider anyway so it would be a relatively small change. One of the trends in 8th has been bulking out the army lists by adding new unit entries where previously you had one entry with multiple options, so instead of dark elf warriors that can swap their spears for crossbows we now have darkshards and dreadspears as two separate unit entries.

I would expect that we might get new specific hero types for Wildrider, Wardancer and Waywatcher kindred nobles and that the other kindred types will just get ditched, Eternal is pretty inconsequential anyway and doesn't have a model, scout kindred is basically just WW-lite and also doesn't have a model, and while it would be a shame to lose the Alter Kindred he is a bit gimmicky (and doesn't have a model).

I'm not sure they will keep glamour-weave kindred for the mages either, the only real point is to allow them to join Wild rider units, and I'm not really sure that is something that is really necessary (since joining a unit of GRs is arguably better from a tactical standpoint).

When you think about it they could create 3 new character entries (splitting apart the kindreds) and 1 new unit entry (scouts) just by splitting apart options that exist in the current unit entries and not need to make any new models for those entries at all.


I would like to see some of the special characters like Scarloc and Naith make a return or either of the older beast master characters like Skaw with his falcons. Glade Guard are great as they are the idea to let them all fire if in a block a sort of improved volley fire is viable but don't make them ST4 for full range. Treemen do need a reduction in points probably down to 250 and lose the tree singing ability.

Ward saves on all forest spirits become a true ward save otherwise leave them alone. Points costs are too high but that is the legacy of being released in that version. Make eternal guard either WS 4 if core or WS5 if special puts them on a par with other elf races elites that way, if they do go to core down to 10 points otherwise we may get lucky if they keep them at 12.

Scouts needs to be their own unit type and scrap the must have more glade guard than you have scouts but they definitely need to come down from 17 points otherwise bite the bullet and pay the extra for the waywatchers. Speaking of which they shoudl only get the bonus negative to hit if in cover of some sort they are forest stalkers.

No arguments from me with any of this, I think more special characters are inevitable as most 7th/8th books have at least twice as many as we do currently, in many cases more than that.


Also why not allow warhawks as a mount so characters can join the units.

Anyway just some ideas to throw out there

Because even if a character could ride a warhawk he wouldn't be able to join units of them because the core rules don't allow characters on flying mounts to join flying units. Lizardmen players can't join a terradon mounted character to a unit of terradons and bretonnians can't do the same with Pegasi. Plus wood elf characters can already take an eagle as a mount which is the same unit type as a warhawk, but has superior stats in every way.

Kahadras
23-03-2014, 13:18
I'd focus on the dual nature of the Wood Elf list. I'd make the Forest Spirit portion of the list more agressive and uncontrolable than the Wood Elves. I'd give them a rule that gave them hatred but also cause them to have to restrain from charging the nearest enemy (a la frenzy).

Ratbeast
24-03-2014, 05:49
I'd focus on the dual nature of the Wood Elf list. I'd make the Forest Spirit portion of the list more agressive and uncontrolable than the Wood Elves. I'd give them a rule that gave them hatred but also cause them to have to restrain from charging the nearest enemy (a la frenzy).

The elves are slowly becoming more part of the forest then normal elves, the longer they dwell there, the more they change, in general, wood elves are losing their identities and becoming one with the forest, one day all units might become forest spirits lol

HurrDurr
24-03-2014, 06:43
I'd focus on the dual nature of the Wood Elf list. I'd make the Forest Spirit portion of the list more agressive and uncontrolable than the Wood Elves. I'd give them a rule that gave them hatred but also cause them to have to restrain from charging the nearest enemy (a la frenzy).

Dryads with that and they can't use the LD of Elves in the army(most generals), honestly if the book wasn't so weak overall people would recognize just how powerful skirmishing ITP chaos warriors are. I like the fluff of that change enough to take the randomness, even if the WE army relies on redirectors and what not.

strongbow
24-03-2014, 22:16
Couple more ideas:

Let the Eternal Guard Fighting Style let them have the 6+ Parry Save.
Wood Elf bows give anyone who carries them the 6+ Parry Save to represent their skill with the weapon and their ability to wield it in close quarters defensively.

Alltaken
25-03-2014, 00:02
Rhymers harp +1 ward save on x" radius *. *

And now that I skimmed though 3rd edition rb I think shape changers would be great! MI bear elves or regular infantry tanky units

From my servoskull

Odin
25-03-2014, 00:45
I've heard this a lot and don't know why people think this, maybe they just built their Dryads in odd locations, but I actually store all my Dryads ranked up on a shelf as it saves space, and I have no problems at all pushing them together (except for the odd one or two). They actually look much nicer ranked up on movement trays, I think I'd prefer it.

I'd certainly prefer it to having to rank them up every time they get into combat and then put them back into skirmish formation again afterwards!

Odin
25-03-2014, 00:46
Couple more ideas:

Let the Eternal Guard Fighting Style let them have the 6+ Parry Save.
Wood Elf bows give anyone who carries them the 6+ Parry Save to represent their skill with the weapon and their ability to wield it in close quarters defensively.

Yes. Definitely should happen.
No. Makes no sense - why would they use their bow in close combat, it's far too much of a precision weapon to risk damaging it in close combat.

Kahadras
25-03-2014, 02:01
Dryads with that and they can't use the LD of Elves in the army(most generals)

That was another possible idea I'd come up with. Basicaly Forest spirits can't use the leadership bubble of Wood Elves (unless the general is a forest spirit where upon the Wood Elves wouldn't be able to use their leadership). I want the Dryads, Treekin and Treemen to be a bit more representative of the darker nature of Athel Loren, impulsive and destructive. It would set up a nice decision for the Wood Elf player to either try to control the more agressive elements of the forest or accept that they are part of the nature of the army and therefore accept the unpredicability of their woodland allies.

Ratbeast
25-03-2014, 07:54
Yes. Definitely should happen.
No. Makes no sense - why would they use their bow in close combat, it's far too much of a precision weapon to risk damaging it in close combat.

The green arrow uses his bow in close combat sometimes

SpanielBear
25-03-2014, 13:26
The green arrow uses his bow in close combat sometimes

The difference I feel is that his bow was made of composite materials, as opposed to wood. And you certainly can use a wooden bow to block attacks, but just don't expect it to be much use after.

boli
25-03-2014, 16:59
The difference is that in battle you are not less likely to care about the condition of your bow when facing rampaging orcs - and it is still 6 feet of long flexible wood (quarterstaff) - so if using your bow means you live and your friend who used his belt knife died; you get to use his bow if yours broke.

I'm not saying it is worth a 6+ parry save but bows - like *everything* was used in combat if the will of the man (or the elf) deemed it a weapon.

SpanielBear
25-03-2014, 21:41
The difference is that in battle you are not less likely to care about the condition of your bow when facing rampaging orcs - and it is still 6 feet of long flexible wood (quarterstaff) - so if using your bow means you live and your friend who used his belt knife died; you get to use his bow if yours broke.

I'm not saying it is worth a 6+ parry save but bows - like *everything* was used in combat if the will of the man (or the elf) deemed it a weapon.

Well yes, it can be. But like I say, the quality of the bow was impaired after. Historically (I know, I know, that word again!) long bowmen tended to be either given or "acquire" a decent hand weapon too, normally things like hatches, stilettos or falchions that didn't require a huge amount of skill to use- just point and hack. Or stab. I think the main issue here is that the GW models, beautiful though they are, all decided to come to a battle with a butter-knife...

Oogie boogie boss
26-03-2014, 11:08
For my mind, it boils down to more unit choices for the main part. There simply isn't enough choice in the current army book, and what options there are aren't pointed in line with other 8th troops. First off, there needs to be a plausible ranked combat unit for the army. I know that WE function in a light, skirmishing role, but they need another option of infantry that can stand against things like Gors, Orcs and Empire State Troops. Also, they need some elite infantry and cavalry.

Alongside this, all of their options need to be re-pointed, they should have ASF, in line with the other Elf forces, and a shooting bonus either based on increasing the strength of their longbows for all such armed troops, or negating certain minuses to their BS-based shooting.

Lastly, and this is a slightly out there idea, they could do with an artillery option. My thought was a bolt-thrower/catapult which fires thorn/vine nets. Maybe ST2, means the target suffers ASL for the duration of the game turn and reduces their M by -1/-2. Like I said, just a crazy thought, but could work.

rolly_321
26-03-2014, 11:55
Well ASF would be the first add, not because it makes any sense fluff wise but to bring woodelves in line.

I'd like no penalty for moving and firing with any unit and -1 when marching along with quick to fire and keeping the +1s at half range, with all bows being gladeguard bows by default.
Scouts come down in price.
Elternal guard can stay as they are now, but have heavy armour and a 5+ parry. This would make them elite elven spearmen (which is what they're meant to be).
Forest spirit a flat 5+ ward. Sprites get buffed up to be like vamp powers and made branchwraiths and treemen only.
Lore of Athel Loren needs a massive overhaul.
Wildriders got up and attack and have frenzy. With ASF they'll already be a lot more punchy.
Wardancers have a 4+ dodge save (combat only) and loose their dances for rank disruption and HKB.
Warhawk riders have their fluff redone to be wardancers riding hawks.
Waywatchers get sniper.
Treeman should be 2+ scaly skin tougher and have regen.
Some new forest creature stuff, sprite swarms, something magical but not another tree variation, maybe some kinda big sprites, like shape shifting humanoid/animals.

Althwen
26-03-2014, 14:15
Well ASF would be the first add, not because it makes any sense fluff wise but to bring woodelves in line.

I'd like no penalty for moving and firing with any unit and -1 when marching along with quick to fire and keeping the +1s at half range, with all bows being gladeguard bows by default.
Scouts come down in price.
Elternal guard can stay as they are now, but have heavy armour and a 5+ parry. This would make them elite elven spearmen (which is what they're meant to be).
Forest spirit a flat 5+ ward. Sprites get buffed up to be like vamp powers and made branchwraiths and treemen only.
Lore of Athel Loren needs a massive overhaul.
Wildriders got up and attack and have frenzy. With ASF they'll already be a lot more punchy.
Wardancers have a 4+ dodge save (combat only) and loose their dances for rank disruption and HKB.
Warhawk riders have their fluff redone to be wardancers riding hawks.
Waywatchers get sniper.
Treeman should be 2+ scaly skin tougher and have regen.
Some new forest creature stuff, sprite swarms, something magical but not another tree variation, maybe some kinda big sprites, like shape shifting humanoid/animals.

Holy craps, this would be completely imba.
HKB on Wardancers? Not a chance.

boli
26-03-2014, 15:05
To fit the lore whatever you end up doing for wardancers is going to be broken

I'm thinking:
A2, WS6, I6
Killing Blow
ASF
4++ Dodge
Skirmish
MR (2)
Skirmish
+1 Strength on the charge
remove rank bonus from enemy unit in combat with.

but you'll prob need 25-30 points each, in rare and unit size of 20 max.

Oogie boogie boss
26-03-2014, 15:17
To fit the lore whatever you end up doing for wardancers is going to be broken

I'm thinking:
A2, WS6, I6
Killing Blow
ASF
4++ Dodge
Skirmish
MR (2)
Skirmish
+1 Strength on the charge
remove rank bonus from enemy unit in combat with.

but you'll prob need 25-30 points each, in rare and unit size of 20 max.

ASF- Yes.
A2, WS6, I6- Yes.
Killing Blow- Yes.
4++ dodge- I'd say 5++ and only in combat.
Skirmish- Yes.
MR 2- Maybe.
+1 ST on charge- No.
Remove Rank Bonus in combat- NO!

These last two would make them way too powerful, even for the points cost you suggested. They're supposed to be fast, deadly, skilled but fragile. ASF, killing blow and the stats bump is more than enough to cover how good they should be, for maybe 16-18pts each.

DareX2
26-03-2014, 15:38
I'd love to see a version of the Wardancers' old acrobatic rule come back: wardancers can move through units.

boli
26-03-2014, 15:42
Irony is... its not really a stats boost - just taking into account the "extra hand weapon" and "funny dance".

The "remove rank bonus" I'm thinking the same as the sisters of slaughter get (they basically cause disruption) - but because wardancers are skirmishers they have no ranks so they'll be fighting against steadfast opponents 90% of the time; so on its own it is not really too powerful - but a small group in combined arms with spears or cavalry is going to ideal. (and what they should be doing)

5++ or 4++ ward is definitely a given - combat only I'm not too sure on... remember the closest alternative is the swordmasters who get a 6+ parry from weapons against missile fire - so having no armour and a 4++ Dodge ward regardless if they are in combat or not is not too powerful when you consider they are S3 T3 and are a small unit. I certainly think a unit cap should be on these.

sisters of slaughter are 15ppm, and can rank up, swordmasters are 13ppm and rank - a small highly elite wardancer at 20+ppm in RARE with the above stats is going to be pricy.... but no ranking up and relying on combined arms to break opponents is about right I reckon.

SpanielBear
26-03-2014, 15:48
For my mind, it boils down to more unit choices for the main part. There simply isn't enough choice in the current army book, and what options there are aren't pointed in line with other 8th troops. First off, there needs to be a plausible ranked combat unit for the army. I know that WE function in a light, skirmishing role, but they need another option of infantry that can stand against things like Gors, Orcs and Empire State Troops. Also, they need some elite infantry and cavalry.

Alongside this, all of their options need to be re-pointed, they should have ASF, in line with the other Elf forces, and a shooting bonus either based on increasing the strength of their longbows for all such armed troops, or negating certain minuses to their BS-based shooting.

Lastly, and this is a slightly out there idea, they could do with an artillery option. My thought was a bolt-thrower/catapult which fires thorn/vine nets. Maybe ST2, means the target suffers ASL for the duration of the game turn and reduces their M by -1/-2. Like I said, just a crazy thought, but could work.

I agree with most of this, but the net artillery has a problem- you can't fire into combat, so the ASL is largely wasted. The movement reduction I like.
Maybe a way to fit the ASL in would be to give Treeman a variety of stand and shoot options. Each Treeman may choose 1 from the list.

A) Tearing Roots- artillery dice strength 4 hits, as now.
B) Tangling Vines- d6 strength 2 hits. Any successfull wounds means the enemy unit is ASL, and subtracts a number of inches from the charge equal to the number of wounds taken by the unit.
C) Bough Bolt- enemy unit takes a strength 6 hit, following rules for bolt thrower.
D) Spite Swarm- 2d6 strength 2 poison attacks, BS2. In addition the enemy units LD is reduced by 1, due to the spites glamour.

If the Treeman is in a forest, all shooting attacks strength is increased by 1. The Branch Bolt is increased to strength 8.

Spiney Norman
26-03-2014, 15:58
For my mind, it boils down to more unit choices for the main part. There simply isn't enough choice in the current army book, and what options there are aren't pointed in line with other 8th troops. First off, there needs to be a plausible ranked combat unit for the army. I know that WE function in a light, skirmishing role, but they need another option of infantry that can stand against things like Gors, Orcs and Empire State Troops. Also, they need some elite infantry and cavalry.

I don't think this is really true, the wood elf list is diverse enough, its principle problem is that not enough of those units have the rules or appropriate points values to really be viable. There might be a case for a basic elf CC infantry unit (sort of old-style glade guard with spears), but other than they they have basic BS shooters, CC Skirmishers, fast cav and shooty Skirmishers, and elite fast cav, elite CC Skirmishers, elite ranked infantry and elite skirmishing shooters, they also have a solid (though overpriced) monstrous infantry unit and a big monster.

Of course we might see a couple of new unit entries from dual kits and what have you, but they are by no means required.

Althwen
26-03-2014, 16:03
I'd love to see a version of the Wardancers' old acrobatic rule come back: wardancers can move through units.

Could be cool.

A rule that would allow them to move through enemy units much like Hexwraiths, but instead of being ethereal they would have to make a difficult terrain check as if they were a fleeing unit. I mean; if fleeing enemy units can run through enemy units dodging blades in such a fashion that only 1 in 6 dies, Why not wardancers with all their agility?
In addition: Wardancers can move and charge through friendly units without penalties. The unit being moved through, if not already having moved, cannot march or charge that turn, as they're too busy being stood upon.


Why not redesign their movement to either be something like: They regain the 360 degrees LoS skirmishers used to benefit from in previous versions. Or, that being too powerful, their dancing and erratic movements causes them to have either 2D6 or 3D6 random movement (controlling player's choice). When coming into contact with a unit the controlling player can either choose for the Wardancers to count as having charged, or he can opt for the acrobatic movement described above and move through the enemy unit.
This way the the downside of having random movement is somewhat mitigated, but not entirely.

Everything else about WD is pretty decent, apart from the ASF dance. Since WE will probably gain ASF anyway this should be replaced. It would be an ideal slot to incorporate something that would protect them from too many attacks. Something like a dance that would allow the Wardancers to kill models from the front rank without their buddies stepping up to take their place. Every kill made by the wardancers would come from the front rank, leaving only the models in the 2nd (and 3rd and 4th) rank, champion and characters to strike back.

With a dance like this, they wouldn't really need to have their ward save boosted to a 4++.

But this may be too complicated and far-fetched anyway :)

boli
26-03-2014, 18:12
Choosing dances is too complex anyways - its OK if you have only one unit... but you'll have to start using scraps of paper around with multiple units over multiple turns.

Adding ASF and Killing blow to the wardancers and removing all the dances is a solid upgrade and a lot less hassle.

Spiney Norman
26-03-2014, 21:22
Choosing dances is too complex anyways - its OK if you have only one unit... but you'll have to start using scraps of paper around with multiple units over multiple turns.

Adding ASF and Killing blow to the wardancers and removing all the dances is a solid upgrade and a lot less hassle.
Great idea, if you want to totally kill everything that makes Wardancers unique and interesting. The reality is that a T3 unit with a conditional 4++ rarely makes it to a second or third round anyway, and I've never been in a situation in the last 3 editions where I needed to make a note of the dance my units performed on the previous turn.

Althwen
26-03-2014, 22:28
Choosing dances is too complex anyways - its OK if you have only one unit... but you'll have to start using scraps of paper around with multiple units over multiple turns.

Adding ASF and Killing blow to the wardancers and removing all the dances is a solid upgrade and a lot less hassle.

Speak for yourself. Too complex...pfff. We're playing Warhammer, not Tic tac toe. If anything, I'd like my Dryad's wildforms back as well please.
Dances are a great way to stack special rules onto a unit without the risk of overpowerment and the unit becoming a bland mix of everything good. If you have trouble with remembering which unit is dancing what dance, why not sculpt or kitbash your own markers that you place next to the unit?

boli
26-03-2014, 23:05
If they do different dances they should be combat duration *not* round.... Sure they normally don't last to the second round but if you charged in with a 4+ save and next round you die before using your extra attack its stupid... Their roll in combat changed.

Basic dodge, asf and killing blow, keep it simple.

Spiney Norman
27-03-2014, 00:52
If they do different dances they should be combat duration *not* round.... Sure they normally don't last to the second round but if you charged in with a 4+ save and next round you die before using your extra attack its stupid... Their roll in combat changed.

Basic dodge, asf and killing blow, keep it simple.

Given that they will have ASF as standard that first one seems pretty superfluous.
4++ dance, +1 attack dance, killing blow dance, disrupt enemy ranks dance simplz!

rolly_321
27-03-2014, 01:54
The dances seem cool on paper to me but in terms of gameplay it doesn't work very well, generally for any situation there one of the dances that works the best, but you have to switch, i guess if you could keep the same dance throughout combat it wouldn't bother me so much.

But anyway, in my mind they're the ultimate glasshammer, and hkb makes sense fluffwise, along rank disruption and a dodge save in combat (maybe a 5+ i was probably overenthusiastic earlier), get rid of 'wardancer' weapons and just assume they all have 2 hand weapons. Costed around 25 points a model this isn't anywhere near as OP it sounds to begin with.

It's a 1 wound t3 s3 no armour model.. any ranged threat will destroy them irrelevant of skirmish, any block unit is still going to kill them abet after taking some serious casualties unless they can make them run, the only units that they would do really really well against is small units of elites like chaos knights or maneaters. Yes they could do some serious damage but at s3 they're pretty dependent on those killing blows and a smart opponent can grind them down with medicore troops or just throw a fireball at them/a volley from some archers. Similarly, impact hits would wreck them.

This would make them incredibly fragile light infantry who specialise in anti heavy-infantry or flanking, who suffer from prolonged combat. Which is exactly what they're meant to be.

Anyway, I'm in no way speculating that something like this will happen, the question was what YOU (I - for me) would do.. I'd love for them to get beefed up, what I imagine is more likely is GW will bring the points down (so you field larger units - thus buying more models) and will keep them roughly where they are now in power terms.

Hillbilly Carl
27-03-2014, 16:41
I think it is a given that wood elves will get ASF.

They also need to keep the move and shoot rule as it fits with the mobile tactics that the wood elves should specialize in.

I'd love to see the skirmishing troops be able to garrison forests as if they were buildings.

The forest spirit ward save needs to either be changed to 5+ regeneration (more fluffy) or a true 5+ ward save.

I'd love it if they changed "Glade Guard Longbow" to "Wood Elf Longbow" giving everyone S4 at short range.

The option either through magic items or new units for S5 or 6 shooting. I don't want a lot but 1 or 2 shots at a higher strength per turn would come in handy.

If kindreds remain, the option to give the BSB a kindred.

Warhawk riders to have a minimum unit size of 1. I'd love to be able to justify taking warhawks but they just aren't worth it. If I could take them with the stats they have now but in units of 1, I'd take 3.

Imperator64
27-03-2014, 18:32
I think those hoping for glade guard bows all round will be disappointed. The units units which can't have them are the ones that can march and fire and perform unlimited reforms. The idea is that you get at least one shot at higher stregnth and only more if you are very clever or lucky. If glade riders and scouts had S4 at short range i'd be a.very happy boy. The ability to move away from the enemy at fulll speed whilst peppering him with bs4 s4 hits would be too much of a boost for GW to give us.

SpanielBear
27-03-2014, 21:46
I think those hoping for glade guard bows all round will be disappointed. The units units which can't have them are the ones that can march and fire and perform unlimited reforms. The idea is that you get at least one shot at higher stregnth and only more if you are very clever or lucky. If glade riders and scouts had S4 at short range i'd be a.very happy boy. The ability to move away from the enemy at fulll speed whilst peppering him with bs4 s4 hits would be too much of a boost for GW to give us.

To be honest, in the quantities of shots we're talking about I don't see it being an OP upgrade. Especially if we lose scouts as an upgrade and make waywatchers the dedicated sneaky deployment guys. I agree glade guard bows on scouts as they are now would be nasty, but glade guard or war-hawks will get just enough of a boost to be decent, without being overwhelming. Same goes for characters- is a noble on an eagle going to be vastly more powerful because his one shot has an extra pip of strength?

Kakapo42
27-03-2014, 21:52
I'd rather not have universal S4 bowfire at short range, as I see that as something that should be the Glade Guard thing. I'd much rather that the other Wood Elf missile units had other things to make their shooting special instead.

Alltaken
28-03-2014, 01:53
I have no idea what they are gonna pull out, we should be the premier glass cannon army if we mintain skirmish army as core concept (I think we will, after seeing dwarfs) but that will make us a lot like dark Elves apparently

From my servoskull

mostlyharmless
28-03-2014, 02:36
It's a shame GW has dictated that werewolves are chaos-tainted monsters. If wood elves could have Garou from Werewolf: The Apocalypse, that would be awesome.

Alltaken
28-03-2014, 04:46
It's a shame GW has dictated that werewolves are chaos-tainted monsters. If wood elves could have Garou from Werewolf: The Apocalypse, that would be awesome.

They had shape changers, and that might even come back.

From my servoskull

Krofna
28-03-2014, 15:11
Given the usual stuff Elves get these days (ASF, 8 lores), the thing I think that will really set apart Wood Elves from the rest of the Elves would be MC unit, the aformentioned Stag Riders or something along these lines.

A dual kit with Wild Riders/some sort of ethereal cavalry Sisters (as both DE and HE got some kind of Sisters) unit would also be great and another unique addition to the Wood Elves.

SpanielBear
28-03-2014, 15:25
Given the usual stuff Elves get these days (ASF, 8 lores), the thing I think that will really set apart Wood Elves from the rest of the Elves would be MC unit, the aformentioned Stag Riders or something along these lines.

A dual kit with Wild Riders/some sort of ethereal cavalry Sisters (as both DE and HE got some kind of Sisters) unit would also great and another unique addition to the Wood Elves.

I still feel that 8 lores for Wood Elves is a bad fit. Spellweavers with Lore of fire, metal or light? To be honest the only lore I could see being added is shadow, to fit with the 'glamour' ideal.

Query, however, what spells do people see being added/improved in a new 'Lore of Athel Loren'? And what lore bonus?

:EDIT: On the subject of sisters, I kind of hope they don't go down this route, and instead stick with just having each unit being multi-gendered with no real fanfare. I like the idea that Wood Elves, and elves in general, just don't see gender as being that big a deal.

theunwantedbeing
28-03-2014, 15:27
I think Forest Spirits need some sort of instability rule, much like Daemonic Instability.
That said, rather than have the same double 1 and double 6 results as the daemons do (as that wouldn't make much sense) instead have the following results.
Double 1. Regrowth. The unit regain wounds, maybe nearby unit's also do.
Double 6. Unit is replaced by a wood. Make up your own reason why.

It'de certainly help them become more interesting rather than just turning with ward save into a solid one.

SpanielBear
28-03-2014, 15:37
I think Forest Spirits need some sort of instability rule, much like Daemonic Instability.
That said, rather than have the same double 1 and double 6 results as the daemons do (as that wouldn't make much sense) instead have the following results.
Double 1. Regrowth. The unit and all units within 6" immediately regain D6 wounds.
Double 6. Petrify! The life essence of the Forest Spirit flees leaving behind the petrified remains of it's former self. Remove the unit and replace it with an equal size wood.

It'de certainly help them become more interesting rather than just turning with ward save into a solid one.

That may make sense for tree kin, but not so much for the other forest spirits. Dryads and Treeman don't inhabit a tree, they ARE the tree; abandoning it in the midst of battle makes no sense at all, it'd be like a knight deciding to take off his armour and stand naked on the battlefield. They'd have nowhere to run to.
As for Wild Riders it makes even less sense, these are elves possessed by the spirit of the hunt, not ethereal beings.
There's been a suggestion to give forest spirits a version of hatred that works like frenzy- it lasts until you lose combat. That seems more in keeping to me, the idea that a previously enraged spirit becomes more cautious when it is clear it is in serious peril.

Krofna
28-03-2014, 16:48
I still feel that 8 lores for Wood Elves is a bad fit. Spellweavers with Lore of fire, metal or light? To be honest the only lore I could see being added is shadow, to fit with the 'glamour' ideal.

Query, however, what spells do people see being added/improved in a new 'Lore of Athel Loren'? And what lore bonus?

:EDIT: On the subject of sisters, I kind of hope they don't go down this route, and instead stick with just having each unit being multi-gendered with no real fanfare. I like the idea that Wood Elves, and elves in general, just don't see gender as being that big a deal.

I can wholeheartedly agree on the subject of Shadow lore, as it is fluffy and quite natural with WE, the other lores that you mentioned not so much.
I believe Ward said in some WD issue that he already wrote all the Elves (quote anyone?) so ASF is pretty much dead set, the lores im not so sure, but before all, I'd like Spellsingers to atleast have another lore other than Lore of Athel Loren, and Shadow on the Spellweaver.

And on the subject of Lore of Athel Loren, I'm going on a premise that we're gonna get 2 signatures like DE/HE.

I'd like one Signature spell to be Treesinging (maybe a bit improved on the distance moved) and other one could be Ethereal augment.

The Lore bonus is a complete mystery. DE improve their offensive spells (hex, magic missile, direct damage) while HE augment the ward of the Mages unit when they cast. Ours could be one that improves movement or some other characteristics (augment buff).

HurrDurr
28-03-2014, 20:31
That may make sense for tree kin, but not so much for the other forest spirits. Dryads and Treeman don't inhabit a tree, they ARE the tree; abandoning it in the midst of battle makes no sense at all, it'd be like a knight deciding to take off his armour and stand naked on the battlefield. They'd have nowhere to run to.
As for Wild Riders it makes even less sense, these are elves possessed by the spirit of the hunt, not ethereal beings.
There's been a suggestion to give forest spirits a version of hatred that works like frenzy- it lasts until you lose combat. That seems more in keeping to me, the idea that a previously enraged spirit becomes more cautious when it is clear it is in serious peril.

Dryads are more of a shape-changing earth/forest elemental. Their bodies are made of the forest but they aren't bound to them and from reading the fluff in the latest book/Guardians novel they are able to spring out of the ground rapidly and back afterwards, unlike treekin and especially treemen.

All forest spirits are sprites iirc. The treeman is the only of the 3 forest spirits where the sprites are permanently bound to the physical form, so when a treeman is killed so are the multiple sprites that fused with it. I forget if treekin are controlled by multiple but they aren't fused with the body permanently. So upon destructive they just float off and do whatever

Given that only a treeman would be concerned with the risk of being destroyed, it would be very fluffy to see enraged or out of control forest spirits. But i agree that the fleeing explanation seems too uncharacteristic for almost immortal spirits fighting on the home front.

I like the idea of daemonic instability with a forest twist, if it means no more forest spirits flanking a unit then wiffing attacks and losing combat to 3 ranks and a banner with no wounds sustained then fleeing. Hatred would be a nice plus.

strongbow
29-03-2014, 08:12
How about a wardancer unit armed with bows? Their 'dances' can allow them to have different benefits when shooting, e.g. multiple shots, sniper, something like that.

Urgat
29-03-2014, 08:22
It's a shame GW has dictated that werewolves are chaos-tainted monsters. If wood elves could have Garou from Werewolf: The Apocalypse, that would be awesome.

A werewolf named Garou, seriously? (in french, werewolf: loup garou).
Anyway, in GW lore, there's been non-chaotic werewolves too, but they belonged to Ulric. Guessthat's a precedent for other possibilities.
Though I really don't see werewolves fitting with woodelves.

What I'd do with WE?
I'd give them back their chariots, for starters. Yeah, yeah, forests, whatever. If the Empire oponnent can use his cannons, it means the battle happens in a clearing. When's the last time you WE players covered the entire table with woods?
After that, I think they got way enough shooting as it is. I'd allow treeman to lob rocks to make some sort of warmachine, like the gorgon, but that'd be it.
What do they lack? They got fast to elite infantry, same for cavalry, they got monsters and MI. They lack chaff, for starters. I'd give them swarms of some kind, they live in magical forests, they can have anything from squirrels to fairies. Swarms of fairies would be cool. Make them Warhammer-style, carnivorous fairies that work like land pirahnas, and people won't laugh at fairies.
I'm not too fond of them having MC (not counting the warhawk surfers). For an alledgedly shooty army, they already got quite a punch in melee. While the chariot feels hit and run to me, MC don't, and I'd rather the blunt side of the list belonged to the spirits. So no stag riders for me. I know wild riders are supposed to be spirits. To me they're elves on horses all the same. If you really want MC, well, dunno, make up some mount for the dryads, or better yet, just a unit of monstrous beasts.

As a goblin player, I'd improve them wood elves by peeling them, roasting them gently for twelve minutes, and serving with spicy sauce.

Spiney Norman
29-03-2014, 10:56
A werewolf named Garou, seriously? (in french, werewolf: loup garou).
Anyway, in GW lore, there's been non-chaotic werewolves too, but they belonged to Ulric. Guessthat's a precedent for other possibilities.
Though I really don't see werewolves fitting with woodelves.

What I'd do with WE?
I'd give them back their chariots, for starters. Yeah, yeah, forests, whatever. If the Empire oponnent can use his cannons, it means the battle happens in a clearing. When's the last time you WE players covered the entire table with woods?
After that, I think they got way enough shooting as it is. I'd allow treeman to lob rocks to make some sort of warmachine, like the gorgon, but that'd be it.
What do they lack? They got fast to elite infantry, same for cavalry, they got monsters and MI. They lack chaff, for starters. I'd give them swarms of some kind, they live in magical forests, they can have anything from squirrels to fairies. Swarms of fairies would be cool. Make them Warhammer-style, carnivorous fairies that work like land pirahnas, and people won't laugh at fairies.
I'm not too fond of them having MC (not counting the warhawk surfers). For an alledgedly shooty army, they already got quite a punch in melee. While the chariot feels hit and run to me, MC don't, and I'd rather the blunt side of the list belonged to the spirits. So no stag riders for me. I know wild riders are supposed to be spirits. To me they're elves on horses all the same. If you really want MC, well, dunno, make up some mount for the dryads, or better yet, just a unit of monstrous beasts.

As a goblin player, I'd improve them wood elves by peeling them, roasting them gently for twelve minutes, and serving with spicy sauce.

Lack chaff? What do you think eagles are for?, if they would only make them 1-2 per slot or move them to special that would make me happy.

What wood elves currently lack is an effective way for dealing with high armoured monstrous units and multi-wound monsters, we are currently relying on Amber Spear to do all the heavy lifting in that area and IMHO that needs to change. I'd rather they didn't give welfs a chariot back, personally I'd like they to move further away from the other elves races, not closer to them, and I suspect after what they gave us in the high elf book, that the studio are more creative than falling back on an old, worn out concept that doesn't really fit where the army is now.

dutchwarlord
29-03-2014, 11:45
I'd like one Signature spell to be Treesinging (maybe a bit improved on the distance moved) and other one could be Ethereal augment.

The Lore bonus is a complete mystery. DE improve their offensive spells (hex, magic missile, direct damage) while HE augment the ward of the Mages unit when they cast. Ours could be one that improves movement or some other characteristics (augment buff).

What about Treesinging as Lore Attribut?

Minty
29-03-2014, 15:58
I still feel that 8 lores for Wood Elves is a bad fit. Spellweavers with Lore of fire, metal or light?

I swear I'll never understand this nonsense.

Imagine the scene.

Five thousand years ago... the last of the faithless have sailed back to Ulthuan and all that remain are a few proud kinbands forging a new and brave life in a wild and sometimes dangerous forest.

At this point, the great wizards of this group gather together for a conference which will guide the way these new 'Asrai' will forever after practice magic in this new life.

The next morning a representative of the Wizards goes to give the news to the rest of the Asrai.

"Brothers and sisters," he said, voice high and clear, "By unanimous decision, we have decided from now on to utterly cease the use of six of the winds of magic!"

A hush falls over the other Asrai. The seconds tick on. It's pretty awkward in fact. One voice, in time, calls back, "Why?"

"Um... We live in a forest... Now?"

The wizard was then beaten to death with his own stupidity, but from that day to this, no Asrai wizard has used any wind save Amber or Jade.





What wood elves currently lack is an effective way for dealing with high armoured monstrous units and multi-wound monsters, we are currently relying on Amber Spear to do all the heavy lifting in that area and IMHO that needs to change.

The Lore of metal would change that in a heartbeat.

It's not a total fix, but it would make a colossal difference.


All eight Winds of Magic are fully fluffy for Wood Elves because they're Elves - inherently magical beings with an unbroken line of culture from Ulthuan at the hight of its glory and knowledge.

Anyone who thinks otherwise must defend the idea that the Asrai deliberately decided to stop using useful... Hell, necessary magic for no better reason than they live in a forest now.

Necessary.

They don't strip-mine Loren and they hate trading with (or doing anything with) outsiders, so they need metal magic. Arrowheads don't grow on trees and things which grow on trees are the only things Asrai can get without magic. Every arrowhead, every belt buckle and dagger and spoon and spade in Loren has to be conjoured with metal magic - unless the Asrai really do trade for their metal or mine it themselves.

If you lived in a forest, would you be more or less inclined to study the magic which controls fire? What if that forest also sometimes comes alive and murders you> Loren can be pretty damned hostile to the Asrai too. You need fire mages no matter how you slice it.


The same applies to all eight Lores. The idea that 'we live in a forest now, better deliberately stop being good at magic' is something any wizard would ever think is baffling.

Spiney Norman
29-03-2014, 16:47
The same applies to all eight Lores. The idea that 'we live in a forest now, better deliberately stop being good at magic' is something any wizard would ever think is baffling.

I understand what you're saying, and I would be fine with Welfs getting access to the full range of battle magic lores. They seem to have moved away (at least with dark elves) from only letting armies access the lores that fit with the character of the army. Giving wood elves fire or metal makes about as much sense as giving dark elves access to light or life, that is either perfect sense, or no sense at all, depending on how you personally view how magic lores should be allocated in wfb.

Your strawman however is rather unnecessary, there does not have to have been a point at which wood elves made a conscious decision to stop using magic lore X, it could just naturally have died out as the culture of the Asrai became progressively more wrapped up in the fate of Loren forest.

As the wood elves live among the trees and share their life with the forest spirits, becoming more and more insular and attached to their way of life they are naturally drawn to study certain strands of magic, no young elves study the winds of Aqshy or Chamon because it feels 'un-wood-elfy' to do so and eventually the last wizards who had studied those winds either die of old age (happens to WH elves eventually) or is killed in battle, or miscasts themselves into oblivion and no-one is left with knowledge of those lores, so their use effectively becomes extinct.

Personally I'd be fine with Asrai mages being limited to beasts, life and Loren, I'd equally be happy if they got access to all 8 Battle magic lores, but what they absolutely MUST do, is not limit L2 singers to the lore of Loren again, L2s need to have the same range of lore choices as L4s do.

Urgat
29-03-2014, 17:57
Lack chaff? What do you think eagles are for?, if they would only make them 1-2 per slot or move them to special that would make me happy.

I'm talking about units that can soak up damage, not throaway fast units. Goblins or slaves, not wolf riders, if you prefer.

Spiney Norman
29-03-2014, 18:30
I'm talking about units that can soak up damage, not throaway fast units. Goblins or slaves, not wolf riders, if you prefer.

Fair enough, at our club we usually call those units 'tarpits' rather than 'chaff', chaff for us are the small fast, low cost redirectors that control the movement phase and provide cheap drops in deployment.

wood elves (or the way I play welfs) get around the need for tarpits by running MSU setups so as to make all units expendable. Generally my treeman (if I run it) is the only unit on my side of the table that costs more than 150pts.

Voss
29-03-2014, 18:52
All eight Winds of Magic are fully fluffy for Wood Elves because they're Elves - inherently magical beings with an unbroken line of culture from Ulthuan at the hight of its glory and knowledge.

Anyone who thinks otherwise must defend the idea that the Asrai deliberately decided to stop using useful... Hell, necessary magic for no better reason than they live in a forest now.

Necessary nothing. There is nothing to suggest anywhere that conjuring metals through magic is even a thing that can happen, let alone does. (Or that they even use a lot of metal) They aren't an unbroken line of culture. They deliberately and knowingly turned their backs on the culture of their kin. They are, by High Elf standards, backwards savages. The easiest way for them not to know Metal, Fire or whatever is for the same reason they don't know how to make ships or black arks- no one with that knowledge wandered off into self-imposed exile with them. They went home, instead, and continued to add to actual elven culture over the centuries.

If you want the full range of lores for table play, thats fine, but your off the cuff fluff justification doesn't stand up. Because they really did decide to stop being useful and go play 'crazy survivalists' in the woods of the Old World.

Spiney Norman
29-03-2014, 18:56
Necessary nothing. There is nothing to suggest anywhere that conjuring metals through magic is even a thing that can happen, let alone does. (Or that they even use a lot of metal) They aren't an unbroken line of culture. They deliberately and knowingly turned their backs on the culture of their kin. They are, by High Elf standards, backwards savages. The easiest way for them not to know Metal, Fire or whatever is for the same reason they don't know how to make ships or black arks- no one with that knowledge wandered off into self-imposed exile with them. They went home, instead, and continued to add to actual elven culture over the centuries.

If you want the full range of lords for table play, thats fine, but your off the cuff fluff justification doesn't stand up. Because they really did decide to stop being useful and go play 'crazy survivalists' in the woods of the Old World.

I'm not sure if you are being deliberately ironic there, but you're demonstrating a fairly pronounced ignorance of the wood elf background if you just think they are 'backwards savages'. Lets try and disagree nicely without reducing one of the games most interesting and complex factions to 'elves that forgot how to wash'.

Personally I think its possible to fluff-justify either position without resorting to reducing down the entire army background.

Alltaken
29-03-2014, 19:52
I swear I'll never understand this nonsense.

Imagine the scene.

Five thousand years ago... the last of the faithless have sailed back to Ulthuan and all that remain are a few proud kinbands forging a new and brave life in a wild and sometimes dangerous forest.

At this point, the great wizards of this group gather together for a conference which will guide the way these new 'Asrai' will forever after practice magic in this new life.

The next morning a representative of the Wizards goes to give the news to the rest of the Asrai.

"Brothers and sisters," he said, voice high and clear, "By unanimous decision, we have decided from now on to utterly cease the use of six of the winds of magic!"

A hush falls over the other Asrai. The seconds tick on. It's pretty awkward in fact. One voice, in time, calls back, "Why?"

"Um... We live in a forest... Now?"

The wizard was then beaten to death with his own stupidity, but from that day to this, no Asrai wizard has used any wind save Amber or Jade.





The Lore of metal would change that in a heartbeat.

It's not a total fix, but it would make a colossal difference.


All eight Winds of Magic are fully fluffy for Wood Elves because they're Elves - inherently magical beings with an unbroken line of culture from Ulthuan at the hight of its glory and knowledge.

Anyone who thinks otherwise must defend the idea that the Asrai deliberately decided to stop using useful... Hell, necessary magic for no better reason than they live in a forest now.

Necessary.

They don't strip-mine Loren and they hate trading with (or doing anything with) outsiders, so they need metal magic. Arrowheads don't grow on trees and things which grow on trees are the only things Asrai can get without magic. Every arrowhead, every belt buckle and dagger and spoon and spade in Loren has to be conjoured with metal magic - unless the Asrai really do trade for their metal or mine it themselves.

If you lived in a forest, would you be more or less inclined to study the magic which controls fire? What if that forest also sometimes comes alive and murders you> Loren can be pretty damned hostile to the Asrai too. You need fire mages no matter how you slice it.


The same applies to all eight Lores. The idea that 'we live in a forest now, better deliberately stop being good at magic' is something any wizard would ever think is baffling.

5th edition rulebook states they lost writing as a skill, it makes more than perfect sense that they drop the practice of certain lores, for example fire, where a mistake could cost you half the forest.

The only redeeming point for DE having full lores is that they still hold belief in the whole elven pantheon, just that khaine is the primary God. Besides the fact they would need healers too themselves

Kakapo42
29-03-2014, 21:52
I swear I'll never understand this nonsense.

Imagine the scene.

Five thousand years ago... the last of the faithless have sailed back to Ulthuan and all that remain are a few proud kinbands forging a new and brave life in a wild and sometimes dangerous forest.

At this point, the great wizards of this group gather together for a conference which will guide the way these new 'Asrai' will forever after practice magic in this new life.

The next morning a representative of the Wizards goes to give the news to the rest of the Asrai.

"Brothers and sisters," he said, voice high and clear, "By unanimous decision, we have decided from now on to utterly cease the use of six of the winds of magic!"

A hush falls over the other Asrai. The seconds tick on. It's pretty awkward in fact. One voice, in time, calls back, "Why?"

"Um... We live in a forest... Now?"

The wizard was then beaten to death with his own stupidity, but from that day to this, no Asrai wizard has used any wind save Amber or Jade.





All eight Winds of Magic are fully fluffy for Wood Elves because they're Elves - inherently magical beings with an unbroken line of culture from Ulthuan at the hight of its glory and knowledge.

Anyone who thinks otherwise must defend the idea that the Asrai deliberately decided to stop using useful... Hell, necessary magic for no better reason than they live in a forest now.

Necessary.

They don't strip-mine Loren and they hate trading with (or doing anything with) outsiders, so they need metal magic. Arrowheads don't grow on trees and things which grow on trees are the only things Asrai can get without magic. Every arrowhead, every belt buckle and dagger and spoon and spade in Loren has to be conjoured with metal magic - unless the Asrai really do trade for their metal or mine it themselves.

If you lived in a forest, would you be more or less inclined to study the magic which controls fire? What if that forest also sometimes comes alive and murders you> Loren can be pretty damned hostile to the Asrai too. You need fire mages no matter how you slice it.


The same applies to all eight Lores. The idea that 'we live in a forest now, better deliberately stop being good at magic' is something any wizard would ever think is baffling.

I don't know why, but there seems to be this prevalent misconception that Wood Elf mages practice magic in exactly the same way as High and Dark Elf ones. They don't. From Warhammer Armies: Wood Elves, pg. 21, on Elven Mages:


... for raw magical energy is a fickle and destructive thing if drawn upon unwisely. The High Elven mages of Hoeth protect themselves from it's ravages through a process of ritual and ceremony, using structure to control the sleeping beast. For the Wood Elves, however, their protection comes from an entirely different source, that of the forest of Athel Loren - the forest's natural web of consciousness forms both conduit and shield to the Elven mages who would draw upon this potent force.

Emphasis mine. Wood Elf spellcasters don't tap into magic directly like other wizards, they channel it through Athel Loren, which provides protection from the worst effects of it, but also filters out a lot of the different winds and only allows for the casting of Jade and Amber magic, associated with Isha and Kurnous respectively and deeply connected with major themes of the forest, as well as the lore of Athel Loren. Any thing else the forest doesn't let through, so a Wood Elf mage couldn't use the other lores even if they wanted to.

Even if you disregard that, there's also another side that was brought up by someone on Asrai.org when the magic lores argument came up on there. The Elves that stayed behind in the Old World were colonists. They very likely didn't actually have that many full scholars of Saphery, as an earlier poster said most of those would have gone back to Ulthuan with the rest of the Elven aristocracy. The ones that stayed behind were more likely to be farmers and workers, the salt-of-the-earth types, so many of the mages coming from them would likely be self-taught, learning magic more through trial and error than anything else, and would consequently learn mostly those things that inspired them from their surroundings (the forest), i.e. the natural world.

Finally, I wouldn't actually be surprised if the Asrai did some mining. Certainly not a lot, and certainly using methods that were the least harmful to the environment, but I can see it happening. Remember, they do actually burn wood to produce fire. From Warhammer Armies: Wood Elves, pg. 10:


When the Elves needed wood to burn in order to survive the icy winters, they would take only fallen branches, and in the spring they would nurture and tend to new saplings

So the Wood Elves do exploit the forest from time to time, if A) they absolutely positively HAVE to do it in order to survive and B) can compensate the forest in some way. So while the Wood Elves certainly wouldn't be doing any strip-mining, and they certainly wouldn't be digging it out of the ground, I could imagine them doing something like sifting metals out of river beds (and before someone chimes in with how that doesn't work in real life, this is a magical fantasy setting, if it has trees and hills that eat you, I don't think having river-beds full of useful metals is too much of a stretch) every now and then, and then doing something to make up for it later (cleaning around the river-banks? I'm not really sure what would be appropriate there). Besides, I always thought the Lore of Metal was less about conjuring up metal, and more about transforming metal or things into metal.

The same applies to the lore of Fire. They do use wood-burning fires sometimes, but they only ever use deadwood and make sure to compensate by planting and tending to new trees when the time comes.

theunwantedbeing
29-03-2014, 22:00
Sounds like the wood elves need a fluff re-write.

Voss
29-03-2014, 22:07
I'm not sure if you are being deliberately ironic there, but you're demonstrating a fairly pronounced ignorance of the wood elf background if you just think they are 'backwards savages'. Lets try and disagree nicely without reducing one of the games most interesting and complex factions to 'elves that forgot how to wash'.

Personally I think its possible to fluff-justify either position without resorting to reducing down the entire army background.

I'm not. GW never developed the faction, so I'm not reducing them at all. They're simplistic, boring rural folksy elves, as developed in every generic fantasy novel written for the last century. Demigod hunting king and magic queen? Meanie dryads? Not exactly what I call complex or interesting. And this is the nice version of disagreement. I can spout a lot of invective about horribly lazy and trite the designers have been with this army for 25+ years, but I thought I'd spare everyone. (And not advance what I really think should happen, which is set the army on fire and simply merge the trees into the high elf list, and put sea elf war dancers back).

As is, they're a waste of time and resources, and it should be really clear by now that GW certainly thinks so.

Sounds like the wood elves need a fluff re-write.
They always have. Inserting Daemonic wood spirits sideways into the army list didn't really help. High elves, but worse, has always been the defining trait of the army, except for war dancers (and they had to take war dancers away from high elves to even make that work).

WizzyWarlock
29-03-2014, 22:31
And not advance what I really think should happen, which is set the army on fire and simply merge the trees into the high elf list, and put sea elf war dancers back.
It actually wouldn't surprise me if this happened. With every new army book since 8th was released, more and more magical fire has been added, which is the Wood Elf bane of course - and then there's the Orion books with the second part ending with it looking very bad for the Wood Elves, pushing them close to the point of annihilation. So if the third book comes out and the Wood Elves lose, then GW says they're following the story line and removing the Wood Elves... well, like I said, it wouldn't surprise me.

SpanielBear
30-03-2014, 03:47
I'm not. GW never developed the faction, so I'm not reducing them at all. They're simplistic, boring rural folksy elves, as developed in every generic fantasy novel written for the last century. Demigod hunting king and magic queen? Meanie dryads? Not exactly what I call complex or interesting. And this is the nice version of disagreement. I can spout a lot of invective about horribly lazy and trite the designers have been with this army for 25+ years, but I thought I'd spare everyone. (And not advance what I really think should happen, which is set the army on fire and simply merge the trees into the high elf list, and put sea elf war dancers back).

As is, they're a waste of time and resources, and it should be really clear by now that GW certainly thinks so.

They always have. Inserting Daemonic wood spirits sideways into the army list didn't really help. High elves, but worse, has always been the defining trait of the army, except for war dancers (and they had to take war dancers away from high elves to even make that work).

I... Disagree. Utterly.

Okay, not quite utterly. It's true that the current fluff implies a lot more than it outright states. And a lot of focus is put on famous Wood Elf battles, rather than Wood Elf culture. However.
First off, the models and aesthetic of the Wood Elves moves them firmly away from all other armies, into a solid niche all of their own. The combination of Celtic imagery, the synergy of spite, elf and tree, and the way that almost all the models seem to spring from a living wood is a far more complex (IMHO) image than blinged up white elves vs spikey dark elves. This is not to denigrate those two armies, who have some lovely miniatures in their ranks, but given their shared backgrounds, they are stuck in each others orbit. Wood Elves take on a life of their own.
Secondly, there is a lot more than just magic elves and daemon trees, or at least it is unjust to reduce them in such a way. The spirits of the wood have their own characters, from the nurturing support of Durthu to the outright hostility of Drycha. And rather than assume superiority over these beings, like their cousins of either shade would do, the Wood Elves are forced to treat with then as equals, or even potential betters. Wood Elf culture rests on a knife edge, finding a balance between losing the support of the forest and being destroyed by it; or becoming so intrinsic to it that they lose their elf-hood entirely, becoming just another set of spites. This risk is embodied by Orion and the Wild Hunt, whose fae savagery overwhelms the Elven bodies their spirits inhabit.
One should also look at the relationship the Elves have constructed with Brettonia. It again highlights a difference in character from the Elves of Ulthuan or Naggaroth that rather than demand allegiance or tribute with might and fanfare, Athel Loren has cultivated a society that, in the best case scenario, exists to serve and protect the wood, without ever being aware that that is what it is doing.
Finally, a point about the army. Even currently, the Wood Elves function so differently from the other two factions that to try and claim they could be merged is mind-boggling. They are more fragile than either, but more manoeuverable too. They require precision and some trickery to get right, and don't rely on solid phalanxes or devastating magic. Tree spirits don't work without Elven archery and speed; elves can't function without the toughness and hitting power of the wood. As an army it plays exactly like it should, and no higher praise exists.

TL DR Wood Elves are awsome-sauce, and have buckets of potential.

Kakapo42
30-03-2014, 04:13
TL DR Wood Elves are awsome-sauce, and have buckets of potential.

Quoth the Kakapo, forsooth. Especially the first bit. :D

Spiney Norman
30-03-2014, 08:29
I'm not. GW never developed the faction, so I'm not reducing them at all. They're simplistic, boring rural folksy elves, as developed in every generic fantasy novel written for the last century. Demigod hunting king and magic queen? Meanie dryads? Not exactly what I call complex or interesting. And this is the nice version of disagreement. I can spout a lot of invective about horribly lazy and trite the designers have been with this army for 25+ years, but I thought I'd spare everyone. (And not advance what I really think should happen, which is set the army on fire and simply merge the trees into the high elf list, and put sea elf war dancers back).

As is, they're a waste of time and resources, and it should be really clear by now that GW certainly thinks so.

They always have. Inserting Daemonic wood spirits sideways into the army list didn't really help. High elves, but worse, has always been the defining trait of the army, except for war dancers (and they had to take war dancers away from high elves to even make that work).

My mistake, you were trolling pure and simple.

Rake
31-03-2014, 15:22
This is a late response, to an earlier post. But yes. I would rather the Wood Elves played close to the Dark Elves than they stuck to the current style they have. At least vs Dark Elves I enjoy the battles. Vs wood elves I am either frustrated for trying to hit air or frustrated I just beat up the gaming equivalent of a toddler. And the first only happened until I learnt to play vs them. now its only the second.

Alltaken
31-03-2014, 18:46
I think lothern sky cutters would be good chariots for we. I think it should only be for them and not he

From my servoskull

SpanielBear
31-03-2014, 18:50
I think lothern sky cutters would be good chariots for we. I think it should only be for them and not he

From my servoskull

I agree they'd fit, not so much that high elves shouldn't have them (not that they'd lose them in any case). Different aesthetic, less sea birds and more leaves and yes, I think you're right.

Alltaken
31-03-2014, 18:58
I agree they'd fit, not so much that high elves shouldn't have them (not that they'd lose them in any case). Different aesthetic, less sea birds and more leaves and yes, I think you're right.

They got 3 chariots, and besides a flight armoured platform I dont get the purpose for that charriot that a normal one doesnt cover or could get enhanced to cover

From my servoskull

SpanielBear
31-03-2014, 21:46
They got 3 chariots, and besides a flight armoured platform I dont get the purpose for that charriot that a normal one doesnt cover or could get enhanced to cover

From my servoskull

Well a flying bolt-thrower combined with wood elves ability to move and shoot without penalty...

Alltaken
31-03-2014, 21:53
Well a flying bolt-thrower combined with wood elves ability to move and shoot without penalty...

I would asume another contraption, like the blow pipes of the eotg withouth poison, a sort of repeater bow S4 at short range, a bolt thrower with move and shoot penalty (warmachine not being a bow), etc. Posibilities are huge and the new units I've been seeing of late makes me believe that gw is getting more creative lately (bastiladon, lothern sky cutter, sisters of slaugther, irondrakes, etc)

The concept of a flying charriot would fit perfectly with skirmisher army (and they used to have chariots anyway) and give a decent warmachine which they have all the background to have

From my servoskull

HurrDurr
01-04-2014, 04:44
I like the idea but if they gave us a str 4 bolt thrower without armor pierce x 88091230123, frankly I'd be pissed. Mostly I doubt we would get the other tools we need to deal with armor if they threw that as us.

King Arthur
01-04-2014, 16:22
Just throwing it out there should dryads get ASF? Cos they are super fast currently faster than most of the WE in the current book at I6 and I8 for their troops (Dryads and branchwraiths) why should'nt they? Also should they lose skirmish???

Alltaken
01-04-2014, 18:07
Thats a good point, I would like Bon ASF dryads really, they dont exactly need it, maybe ranking and thats it. Basic scouts - 1 than another core infantry unit, eternal guard as spear cheaper core with the combat style and more core stats and a another unit to take their place in special as ranked élites

From my servoskull

theunwantedbeing
01-04-2014, 18:17
Just throwing it out there should dryads get ASF? Cos they are super fast currently faster than most of the WE in the current book at I6 and I8 for their troops (Dryads and branchwraiths) why should'nt they? Also should they lose skirmish???

No ASF for them
1. They're not elves
2. High initiative values don't always guarantee ASF, just look at vampires, skaven and warriors of chaos.
3. The elves of the army will get ASF, the army will be more varied and interesting if certain parts aren't given the rule

They should lose Skirmish
1. It's not a huge benefit to them currently
2. They gain a rank bonus
3. No more hassle of moving them loose and then ranking them up when they reach combat

Likely there could be a version of Dryads that get to skirmish, or get to ASF
They did use to shapeshift, that can be brought back in a number of ways to make the army more varied.

HurrDurr
01-04-2014, 23:06
Skirmish is what makes dryads dryads, it's huge and losing it (having to pay for reforms and wheeling) would hurt them more than help them. You currently take them in small units and most likely will still take them in small enough units that they rarely will benefit from being ranked, it would only ever help them against things such as monsters or heroes with 0 ranks. The extra resistance to shooting is incredible as well, these guys can run right into a helblaster and live long enough to kill it.

Giving them ASF would be a very dangerous move because you turn cheap(relatively speaking) chaff into elite hit squads. They would start to win some battles they really shouldn't. Now if we get next to no new units, or the units we get don't really provide much benefit or firepower. Then making dryads even nastier would be more appropriate.

boli
02-04-2014, 08:39
Being T4 and 5++ will allow plenty of resistance to shooting

Althwen
02-04-2014, 15:45
Seeing as how HE and DE both got some additional hero and lord choices like the fleetmaster, I think we may well see something alike with WE. The question is: will these replace kindreds?
My guess is yes. Following the example of the characters of our cousins, we might even see some special effects that will benefit units that house those characters.

It would actually have been the logical thing to do with kindreds when last time WE was released, but I think this time we'll see scout or waywatcher characters that will buff their respective units. Fingers crossed.

Spiney Norman
02-04-2014, 23:34
Seeing as how HE and DE both got some additional hero and lord choices like the fleetmaster, I think we may well see something alike with WE. The question is: will these replace kindreds?
My guess is yes. Following the example of the characters of our cousins, we might even see some special effects that will benefit units that house those characters.

It would actually have been the logical thing to do with kindreds when last time WE was released, but I think this time we'll see scout or waywatcher characters that will buff their respective units. Fingers crossed.

I think this is what they'll do too, a devoted wild rider, Wardancer and waywatcher character (since those are the only three kindreds that have dedicated models) and ditch the rest. They might even do away with WR kindred and just allow generic characters to ride stags, but if they do that they'll need to address the rule that says 'only-FS-characters-can-join-FS-units' (and vice versa).

The eternal kindred was a slightly odd concept anyway, the scout kindred was just a cheaper way of getting a character into your Waywatchers and I don't think I've ever seen anyone take a Glamourweave kindred. The only other widely used kindred was alter, but with no dedicated model and it being a slightly odd concept anyway I think he might just disappear, or maybe make an appearance as a rare unit as a MI-size transformed elf/forest spirit hybrid.

Imperator64
03-04-2014, 00:14
Alter-elf monstrous infantry would be a great addition to the army. It would be conceivable for orion and arial to be made MI so that they would have a unit to shelter in.

Voss
03-04-2014, 06:37
My mistake, you were trolling pure and simple.

Not at all. Someone had a gross misunderstanding of the warhammer background, and it sort of jumped out at me. That you decided I was malevolently attacking the half-hearted background that GW has spent far too little effort on is on your own head. For other ideas they had (norse, cathay, nippon to name a few), they decided to abandon their half-hearted and flimsy efforts rather than try to carry incomplete model lines and vague background summaries on their backs for twenty years. That they decided to haul the dead weight for wood elves for all this time has been a complete disservice to the player base. In retrospect, I think Squat players were better served by GW than Wood Elf players have been.



TL DR Wood Elves are awsome-sauce, and have buckets of potential.

Can't speak to that really, because it has been completely unrealized potential for 25 years. Always avoided for a decade at a time, and just the bare minimum done so the crazy people will go away and complain (somewhere else).

Won't speak to the culture, either, since that, as far as I can tell, exists only in your head. The models and aesthetic are... eh. Generically wood elfy, i really don't have any other term for it than that. Any wood elf model from anything produced since lord of the rings is a perfect proxy. Except ElfQuest, but only because they're short. I can think of many, many GW model lines that were cut that were more interesting and more distinct. I also can't think of many wood elf models that wouldn't stand out horribly in a forest, if thats what you mean by 'spring from the living wood.'

But the army? No. The meat of the thing (the army and how it plays in the game) isn't interesting or unique. The elves fight as all non-special slot high elves do (badly- if you want archers, play humans), and the trees are largely just gifted with the perfect stat line, a wonky version of ward save (using the daemon rules from several editions back), and then the dryads are crippled by 8th edition's crazily bad skirmish rules. But the tree kin are easy mode monstrous infantry- just better than everyone else's, and the treeman gets to be a big slow monster, with everything that implies in 8th edition. So the elves would fit right into the high elf army list, and the trees would just make it better. Easy peasy merger there.

But as for playing as it should, I have no idea what you mean. I have exactly two kinds of experiences playing against wood elves. An opponent playing intentionally for a draw, particularly if he's part of a group trying to metagame the results of a tournament, or an army that just gets steamrolled completely, barring fluky magic results. I'm reasonably sure neither is intended, or how the army is supposed to work.

Kayosiv
03-04-2014, 09:39
I have both crushed and been crushed by Wood Elves. I don't think I've ever had a draw against them.

Wood Elves are a skirmishing army that hits hard and can't take hits back. Despite their fragility they can deal out big damage and killing their small elite units doesn't net points as there is no central point to target. Most armies have a big fat block of guys with the general, BSB, and wizard all chilling in the same unit. Wood elves can spread out the threat to a dozen equally dangerous units and that's how I feel they should play.

SpanielBear
03-04-2014, 12:27
Not at all. Someone had a gross misunderstanding of the warhammer background, and it sort of jumped out at me. That you decided I was malevolently attacking the half-hearted background that GW has spent far too little effort on is on your own head. For other ideas they had (norse, cathay, nippon to name a few), they decided to abandon their half-hearted and flimsy efforts rather than try to carry incomplete model lines and vague background summaries on their backs for twenty years. That they decided to haul the dead weight for wood elves for all this time has been a complete disservice to the player base. In retrospect, I think Squat players were better served by GW than Wood Elf players have been.



Can't speak to that really, because it has been completely unrealized potential for 25 years. Always avoided for a decade at a time, and just the bare minimum done so the crazy people will go away and complain (somewhere else).

Won't speak to the culture, either, since that, as far as I can tell, exists only in your head. The models and aesthetic are... eh. Generically wood elfy, i really don't have any other term for it than that. Any wood elf model from anything produced since lord of the rings is a perfect proxy. Except ElfQuest, but only because they're short. I can think of many, many GW model lines that were cut that were more interesting and more distinct. I also can't think of many wood elf models that wouldn't stand out horribly in a forest, if thats what you mean by 'spring from the living wood.'

But the army? No. The meat of the thing (the army and how it plays in the game) isn't interesting or unique. The elves fight as all non-special slot high elves do (badly- if you want archers, play humans), and the trees are largely just gifted with the perfect stat line, a wonky version of ward save (using the daemon rules from several editions back), and then the dryads are crippled by 8th edition's crazily bad skirmish rules. But the tree kin are easy mode monstrous infantry- just better than everyone else's, and the treeman gets to be a big slow monster, with everything that implies in 8th edition. So the elves would fit right into the high elf army list, and the trees would just make it better. Easy peasy merger there.

But as for playing as it should, I have no idea what you mean. I have exactly two kinds of experiences playing against wood elves. An opponent playing intentionally for a draw, particularly if he's part of a group trying to metagame the results of a tournament, or an army that just gets steamrolled completely, barring fluky magic results. I'm reasonably sure neither is intended, or how the army is supposed to work.

I feel our differences of opinion are largely based in subjective taste and personal experience. As such, your view differs hugely from mine, and I respect that.

(Human archers, he says! S4 BS4 move and shoot, and he wants human archers! The man's insane. ;))

( or woman, I don't mean to presume.)

Either way, I'm curious about what you mean by incomplete and abandoned model lines. From what I can remember, the only factions to have been out and out squatted are, well, the squats, dogs of war and Kislev. Genuine query and no attack implied, but were there ever cathayan or nipponese armies or models in the GW line?

Spiney Norman
03-04-2014, 13:15
Not at all. Someone had a gross misunderstanding of the warhammer background, and it sort of jumped out at me. That you decided I was malevolently attacking the half-hearted background that GW has spent far too little effort on is on your own head. For other ideas they had (norse, cathay, nippon to name a few), they decided to abandon their half-hearted and flimsy efforts rather than try to carry incomplete model lines and vague background summaries on their backs for twenty years. That they decided to haul the dead weight for wood elves for all this time has been a complete disservice to the player base. In retrospect, I think Squat players were better served by GW than Wood Elf players have been.


And yet your preference would be to 'set the army on fire and simply merge the trees into the high elf list', if thats not a troll I don't know what is, a bit like saying "Empire and Bretonnian both have knights on horseback and infantry with halberds, why don't they just merge the two (since Empire need new knight models anyway) and add a catapult and battle pilgrims to the Empire army list'.

Merging wood elves in with high elves is effectively squatting them, saying GW has done them an injustice in the background is one thing, but wishing the army out of existence crosses a line. I'm also not sure I take your point about Squats, being able to field my wood elf army with a half-cocked background is infinitely more preferable than having a 3000 pt army that I can't legally use in the game.

Rake
03-04-2014, 15:27
The fact remains that empire could easily absorb brettonia from a play wise respective. Core cavalry, heavy special cavalry and heavier special cavalry. And... thats about it.

Granted the feel of the armies is completely different, but one is the truncated version of the other. Limit empire to cavalry, spearmen and flagellants, get rid of gunpowder add Arthurian and done.

All elves, by definition, will suffer from this effect. Which is why I am completely comfortable with WE, DE and HE being relatively close in style but different in aesthetics. Note the word RELATIVELY close. I don't want clones. I think they got it about right with DE and HE. So stick to the formula that works. Let guerilla die the way the skirmish rule died.

Lastavenger
03-04-2014, 15:54
The fact remains that empire could easily absorb brettonia from a play wise respective. Core cavalry, heavy special cavalry and heavier special cavalry. And... thats about it.

Granted the feel of the armies is completely different, but one is the truncated version of the other. Limit empire to cavalry, spearmen and flagellants, get rid of gunpowder add Arthurian and done.
I think it would be easier to absorb Empire into Brets. Empire have one race rule (detachments) that is rarely used, while Brets have few (lance formation, blessing of the lady, vows, barding that doesn't slow units) that are always used by bretonnian players and also define uniqueness of army.

Gustav Kohn
03-04-2014, 17:55
Not at all. Someone had a gross misunderstanding of the warhammer background, and it sort of jumped out at me. That you decided I was malevolently attacking the half-hearted background that GW has spent far too little effort on is on your own head. For other ideas they had (norse, cathay, nippon to name a few), they decided to abandon their half-hearted and flimsy efforts rather than try to carry incomplete model lines and vague background summaries on their backs for twenty years. That they decided to haul the dead weight for wood elves for all this time has been a complete disservice to the player base. In retrospect, I think Squat players were better served by GW than Wood Elf players have been.
You sir are stating your opinion about GW fluff and you are entitled to it, but as a WE player, squatting or combining with HE would be a disservice. Playstyle and fluff is very different IMO. I honestly cannot understand the hatred you have for them. You can say that their fluff is not different enough perhaps, but they have one of the most unique playstyles in the entire game. Evidence is that they were nerfed much harder by new rules for skirmish, steadfast, etc. than other races.


But the army? No. The meat of the thing (the army and how it plays in the game) isn't interesting or unique. The elves fight as all non-special slot high elves do (badly- if you want archers, play humans), and the trees are largely just gifted with the perfect stat line, a wonky version of ward save (using the daemon rules from several editions back), and then the dryads are crippled by 8th edition's crazily bad skirmish rules. But the tree kin are easy mode monstrous infantry- just better than everyone else's, and the treeman gets to be a big slow monster, with everything that implies in 8th edition. So the elves would fit right into the high elf army list, and the trees would just make it better. Easy peasy merger there.

But as for playing as it should, I have no idea what you mean. I have exactly two kinds of experiences playing against wood elves. An opponent playing intentionally for a draw, particularly if he's part of a group trying to metagame the results of a tournament, or an army that just gets steamrolled completely, barring fluky magic results. I'm reasonably sure neither is intended, or how the army is supposed to work.

I don't know how to respond to you thinking that they play like HE...just because skirmish was nerfed by 8th ed doesn't mean that it isn't a viable "different style". Clearly 8th ed isn't how the army is supposed to work...hence they are getting a new book in May. It seems that you are taking the 8th ed. wood elf experience and generalizing it for all wood elf experience throughout the race's existence.

Lord Dan
03-04-2014, 18:56
Indeed, there have been several threads like this. As others have pointed out, Wood Elf shooting doesn't need to be improved. Rather, they need to be made more viable in the combat phase through a couple of rule changes:

-Forest Spirits get a 5++ all the time.
-Dryads become a ranked unit again.
-Eternal Guard get S4, a 5+ armor save, and halberds.
-Give Wardancers some kind of hit-and-run rule, or just give them a permanent 4++ in combat.

Voss
03-04-2014, 19:31
I feel our differences of opinion are largely based in subjective taste and personal experience. As such, your view differs hugely from mine, and I respect that.

(Human archers, he says! S4 BS4 move and shoot, and he wants human archers! The man's insane. ;))
Purely a points/effectiveness ratio. Almost any races do shooting better than elves, just because elf point costs are ridiculously high for their actual effectiveness.


( or woman, I don't mean to presume.)
It hardly matters. And since it is the internet, it can't matter.


Either way, I'm curious about what you mean by incomplete and abandoned model lines. From what I can remember, the only factions to have been out and out squatted are, well, the squats, dogs of war and Kislev. Genuine query and no attack implied, but were there ever cathayan or nipponese armies or models in the GW line?
Back in 3rd, there were extensive rules, some models and army contingents for both. From rocket teams and ninjas to ki-rin and temple dogs. Also Zoats (a frequent WE ally in fact, and a loss to the overall WE army), half orcs, werewolves and suchlike (shape shifters: another WE loss). I also think of chaos dwarves this way, almost an army book (well, mostly a real one, for all the 'white dwarf presents') then abandoned then mostly picked back up by forge world. I could see Wood Elves and Brets taken on that route, if the warhammer forge offerings weren't so poor and haphazardly done themselves.


And yet your preference would be to 'set the army on fire and simply merge the trees into the high elf list', if thats not a troll I don't know what is, a bit like saying "Empire and Bretonnian both have knights on horseback and infantry with halberds, why don't they just merge the two (since Empire need new knight models anyway) and add a catapult and battle pilgrims to the Empire army list'.

It isn't trolling, its reasoned advice, based on the current state of the overall game, which is doing poorly. Having neglected and half-hearted armies that they clearly can't or won't do anything with is bad for the game, full stop. They need to reinvigorate both lines of warhammer, but fantasy moreso than 40k, and having these stones around their neck is a terrible thing. It may cross a line for you personally, but I consider it a sincere recommendation of a path GW ought to take for the sake of the game. All things considered dumping Brets isn't a bad idea either, considering they shoved most of the Bret conceptual space into Empire already anyway.




I don't know how to respond to you thinking that they play like HE...just because skirmish was nerfed by 8th ed doesn't mean that it isn't a viable "different style". Clearly 8th ed isn't how the army is supposed to work...hence they are getting a new book in May. It seems that you are taking the 8th ed. wood elf experience and generalizing it for all wood elf experience throughout the race's existence.
I did say the army fights like HE. I said the elves fight like all basic elves do- badly for their cost.
And I'm certainly not basing my experience off of 8th. By far the majority of my experience with/against wood elves is from earlier editions. Since 8th has been another edition of defaulting on wood elves, I haven't really seen them on tables much- but my experience has always been faceroll or draw, from 3rd edition on.

olderplayer
03-04-2014, 19:36
WE don't play at all like HE. They don't have infantry units like swordmasters or white lions, nor the medium and heavy cav of silver helms and dragon princes. They also don't have reaper bolt throwers.

The fluff and play-style and concept of Wood Elves is so very different from High Elves that merging them (they once were played together) would be a disservice.

Skirmishing actually has some really nice advantages in 8th edition, especially if terrain is placed as intended. The ability to march and shoot and free reform is a huge advantage. Skirmishers can take advantage of woods to become stubborn and deny steadfast and rank bonuses. Marshes are dangerous terrain to all units other than skirmishers.
The biggest problem is skirmishers can't claim rank bonuses or break ranks. But if GW gives them abilities to be stubborn (even if selective), expanded hit and run abilities (hit a flank or rear and if does not break opposing unit, back off and opposing unit cannot reform to face) and/or feigned flight consistent with fluff they can become a quite potent and fun tactical army.


The biggest weaknesses of Wood Elves are:
1. Lack of high strength attacks both in combat and at range to penetrate or options to ignore armour saves. Consistent with a feral people, give them poison shooting and some poison options in combat and ignore armour on rolls to wound of 6 (Lethal Shot killing blow from shooting they have in one unit but the ability is useless against monstrous and chariot units).
2. Point costs on stats that are 6th ed stats. (Reduce point costs to match up with HE and DE armies.)
3. A severely underpowered army lore which its hero-level mages must take.
4. Lack of superior save options. (Give them special parry or evasive abilities to avoid being hit which exists in the fluff and in some abilities and expand talismanic tatoos and forest spirit abilities).

Given the HE and DE army books, it is pretty certain they will gain ASF for wood elves (likely not dryads, tree kin, or tree men) and the point costs will be adjusted accordingly with options to match or compensate to be equivalent to HE abilities in some way. They probably will not get the high armour save options of HE and DE units and will get some kind of ward save (talismanic tatoos and MR boosts) or special save options (forest spirits closer to daemonic ward saves and instability rules?) as offsets and probably some ability to wound through armour or high T (gain poison consistent with some fluff, gain no armour save abilities or on roll of 6 or something).

WE have a pretty good lineup if the rules are updated and point costs are addressed:
1. Elite archer core in glade guard with S4 at short range and no move and shoot penalties. Needs lower point cost.
2. Excellent elite rank and file fighting core in eternal guard. Needs better special rules and/or reduced point cost.
3. Fast cav with shooting unit (needs to be reduced in point cost).
4. Unique skirmish unit in dryads.
5. Extremely strong and tough monstrous infantry in tree kins.
6. Special fast cav in wild riders.
7. A decent but slow monster in a treeman.
8. Interesting elite skirmish infantry in war dancers.
9. Monstrous cav in warhawk riders (need better save, more punch in combat with say more attacks, or better shooting)
10. Monstrous beast flying chaff in eagles
11. Scout, shooting, skirmishers.

Spiney Norman
03-04-2014, 20:23
I don't know how to respond to you thinking that they play like HE...just because skirmish was nerfed by 8th ed doesn't mean that it isn't a viable "different style". Clearly 8th ed isn't how the army is supposed to work...hence they are getting a new book in May. It seems that you are taking the 8th ed. wood elf experience and generalizing it for all wood elf experience throughout the race's existence.

One cannot reason with trolls, you just have to stop feeding them and hope they go away. Someone who pipes up on a 'how could I improve army x' thread by saying army x should be discontinued is, by definition, a troll.

People who hang around threads just to hate on an army need to go out and buy some more models to paint because they clearly have too much time on their hands.

The wood elf model line is excellent (and in my opinion far superior to the high elf line), getting rid of it would make very little sense, especially when all they need are a few tweaks to their rules and the current elf racial rules to bring them bang up to date and front-row competitive (which will make the already brilliant models sell again in large quantities).

The fluff is a different matter, what they really need to do is reverse the 'narrowing' of the fluff from the 6th edition book and stop just focusing on just Athel Loren, widen the scope of the army to include the elves of Laurelorn and other parts of the world.

Alltaken
03-04-2014, 20:36
Yes elven colonisation would be great, and nice twist to the lore, instead of the constant dying race a kingdom trying to expand to other forrest give them every chance to fight some other race rather than stick to the "we're being attacked." resource. You could even go as far as lessen the stats of certain units saying they're a young generation of elves.
Ariel and Orion give the order to protect the forrests of the old world and done

From my servoskull

SpanielBear
03-04-2014, 20:59
Purely a points/effectiveness ratio. Almost any races do shooting better than elves, just because elf point costs are ridiculously high for their actual effectiveness.


It hardly matters. And since it is the internet, it can't matter.


Back in 3rd, there were extensive rules, some models and army contingents for both. From rocket teams and ninjas to ki-rin and temple dogs. Also Zoats (a frequent WE ally in fact, and a loss to the overall WE army), half orcs, werewolves and suchlike (shape shifters: another WE loss). I also think of chaos dwarves this way, almost an army book (well, mostly a real one, for all the 'white dwarf presents') then abandoned then mostly picked back up by forge world. I could see Wood Elves and Brets taken on that route, if the warhammer forge offerings weren't so poor and haphazardly done themselves.


It isn't trolling, its reasoned advice, based on the current state of the overall game, which is doing poorly. Having neglected and half-hearted armies that they clearly can't or won't do anything with is bad for the game, full stop. They need to reinvigorate both lines of warhammer, but fantasy moreso than 40k, and having these stones around their neck is a terrible thing. It may cross a line for you personally, but I consider it a sincere recommendation of a path GW ought to take for the sake of the game. All things considered dumping Brets isn't a bad idea either, considering they shoved most of the Bret conceptual space into Empire already anyway.



I did say the army fights like HE. I said the elves fight like all basic elves do- badly for their cost.
And I'm certainly not basing my experience off of 8th. By far the majority of my experience with/against wood elves is from earlier editions. Since 8th has been another edition of defaulting on wood elves, I haven't really seen them on tables much- but my experience has always been faceroll or draw, from 3rd edition on.

I honestly don't know enough regarding corporate policy to say whether dropping armies would help or hinder GW- to me prima facie it looks like a bad move, but I'm a nurse not a marketeer! You also clearly have a longer memory of Warhammer than I do- I had no idea half of those models you listed were a thing.

All that said, I am curious about one thing- you've criticised Wood Elves for being generic in terms of fluff; just like every other 'woodsy elf' fantasy race out there. Leaving aside for a moment GW's start point as a good natured parody, to some extent, of fantasy and sci-fi tropes, what would you see as being different? It's a given, I feel, that there's always going to be an interest in a race/faction that emphasises nature and wild magic. Beastmen have some of that, but their thing has always been one of mutation and darkness, rather than Druidy balance. That is a popular theme so I am curious, how would you like to see that portrayed?

EDIT: regarding shooting- over costed troops is a problem, especially for Wood Elves. But I am a fan of the idea that one either gets quality, quantity or a mid point that does both to a lesser degree than the extremes. I feel Wood Elves should rest high on the quality spectrum, and their rules reflect that. Points wise they may pay too much for it, but if they were even just 2 points less per model, I would take them over Empire huntsmen or Brettonian peasants any day of the week.

Voss
03-04-2014, 21:48
The wood elf model line is excellent (and in my opinion far superior to the high elf line), getting rid of it would make very little sense, especially when all they need are a few tweaks to their rules and the current elf racial rules to bring them bang up to date and front-row competitive (which will make the already brilliant models sell again in large quantities).


Ah, Spiney. No one suggested that. Obviously one would ditch the shoddy high elf archer models for the better wood elf archer models. Problem solved. And make the models sell again, both for the wood elf players who convert to the new book, and the high elf players who want decent archer models (though why they haven't done this already is a puzzle to me).


All that said, I am curious about one thing- you've criticised Wood Elves for being generic in terms of fluff; just like every other 'woodsy elf' fantasy race out there. Leaving aside for a moment GW's start point as a good natured parody, to some extent, of fantasy and sci-fi tropes, what would you see as being different? It's a given, I feel, that there's always going to be an interest in a race/faction that emphasises nature and wild magic. Beastmen have some of that, but their thing has always been one of mutation and darkness, rather than Druidy balance. That is a popular theme so I am curious, how would you like to see that portrayed?
Ooo, that is a good question. Actually, given the nature of warhammer, I think the beastmen taking the darkness and danger of the Wild Wood and being the only touch on the natural world (bloody, violent, red in tooth and claw) to be the perfect fit for the setting. D&D druidic 'balance' ******** definitely doesn't have any place, not in warhammer or anything else. The forests of the Old World are a scary place, and the beasts are going to eat you- that has been a prevalent theme in warhammer for a long time and feeds into my love of proper (i.e., not destroyed by Disney) fairie tales. Everyone else can run roughshod over nature (Warriors of Chaos, Orcs, Dwarves) or be scared of it (Empire), or try to control it (Lizards, Elves). This middle ground faux-Celtic (where, like most fantasy, 'celtic' is a synonym for 'elf-like') nonsense needs a good kick in the crotch. With a spike on.



EDIT: regarding shooting- over costed troops is a problem, especially for Wood Elves. But I am a fan of the idea that one either gets quality, quantity or a mid point that does both to a lesser degree than the extremes. I feel Wood Elves should rest high on the quality spectrum, and their rules reflect that. Points wise they may pay too much for it, but if they were even just 2 points less per model, I would take them over Empire huntsmen or Brettonian peasants any day of the week.
Ah, well. For me, shooting in warhammer is an issue. Shooting is decidedly the lesser phase of the game, which doesn't produce particularly good or reliable results. The idea of quantity vs quality is a good one, but in war hammer shooting it doesn't stack up. More rolls= almost always better. Quantity wins by a mile.


The biggest weaknesses of Wood Elves are:
1. Lack of high strength attacks both in combat and at range to penetrate or options to ignore armour saves. Consistent with a feral people, give them poison shooting and some poison options in combat and ignore armour on rolls to wound of 6 (Lethal Shot killing blow from shooting they have in one unit but the ability is useless against monstrous and chariot units).
2. Point costs on stats that are 6th ed stats. (Reduce point costs to match up with HE and DE armies.)
3. A severely underpowered army lore which its hero-level mages must take.
4. Lack of superior save options. (Give them special parry or evasive abilities to avoid being hit which exists in the fluff and in some abilities and expand talismanic tatoos and forest spirit abilities).
Addressing all but #3 (which is easily fixed with an eraser and going back to the beasts and life), a new unit:
Warclubbers of the Laughing God!
Wardancer stats, ASF, parry/mystic tattoo 4++ save nonsense, 12 ppm
unique weapon- warclubs- Counts as Great Weapon. The magically sharpened thorns in the war club grants it the armor piercing special rule.
Special Rules: Club Dances, choose one at the start of every turn:
Freaky Shake: Enemy models attacking the warclubbers suffer -1 to hit.
Ecstastic Hits: each warclubber model in the unit gains +1 Attack
Beyond the Veil: all attacks by warclubbers count as magical, and can reroll charge distance.

Kakapo42
04-04-2014, 00:14
Ah, Spiney. No one suggested that. Obviously one would ditch the shoddy high elf archer models for the better wood elf archer models. Problem solved. And make the models sell again, both for the wood elf players who convert to the new book, and the high elf players who want decent archer models (though why they haven't done this already is a puzzle to me).

The main problem I can see here is that, at present, the Wood Elf and High Elf aesthetics are very very different. While this is in no small part due to painting schemes, Wood Elf models, especialy the core ones, generally tend to have a more unkempt look or feel about them than the High Elves, which are much crisper and 'cleaner'. I'd imagine in a High Elf army, again at present, with Glade Guard as it's archers, the archers would stick out like a sore thumb.


Ooo, that is a good question. Actually, given the nature of warhammer, I think the beastmen taking the darkness and danger of the Wild Wood and being the only touch on the natural world (bloody, violent, red in tooth and claw) to be the perfect fit for the setting. D&D druidic 'balance' ******** definitely doesn't have any place, not in warhammer or anything else. The forests of the Old World are a scary place, and the beasts are going to eat you- that has been a prevalent theme in warhammer for a long time and feeds into my love of proper (i.e., not destroyed by Disney) fairie tales. Everyone else can run roughshod over nature (Warriors of Chaos, Orcs, Dwarves) or be scared of it (Empire), or try to control it (Lizards, Elves). This middle ground faux-Celtic (where, like most fantasy, 'celtic' is a synonym for 'elf-like') nonsense needs a good kick in the crotch. With a spike on.

The thing is though, there are quite a few people, myself included, who actually quite like the faux-celtic harmonious with nature pseudo-druidic angle. I get that Warhammer is meant to be a very dark setting, but I personally don't think that 'dark fantasy' and 'harmonious with nature vaguely druidic Elves' are mutually exclusive of one another. In fact I myself am very happy with the current Wood Elf background. To each their own I suppose.


Let guerilla die the way the skirmish rule died.

Much like the background conundrum, the problem with this is that there are people (again, myself included) who like the guerrilla warfare aspect and taking the sneaky approach. I obviously can't vouch for others, but I myself often find the blunt-force sledgehammer or all-out shock assault approaches rather dull (after all, if I wanted a high-impact shock assault force, I would have started a Bretonnian army instead of a Wood Elf one), and take a lot of enjoyment out of using stealth and guile and guerrilla tactics to get the better out of theoretically superior forces. I like winning battles by being devious. And I imagine there's at least a few others out there who like it too.

SpanielBear
04-04-2014, 00:38
The main problem I can see here is that, at present, the Wood Elf and High Elf aesthetics are very very different. While this is in no small part due to painting schemes, Wood Elf models, especialy the core ones, generally tend to have a more unkempt look or feel about them than the High Elves, which are much crisper and 'cleaner'. I'd imagine in a High Elf army, again at present, with Glade Guard as it's archers, the archers would stick out like a sore thumb.



The thing is though, there are quite a few people, myself included, who actually quite like the faux-celtic harmonious with nature pseudo-druidic angle. I get that Warhammer is meant to be a very dark setting, but I personally don't think that 'dark fantasy' and 'harmonious with nature vaguely druidic Elves' are mutually exclusive of one another. In fact I myself am very happy with the current Wood Elf background. To each their own I suppose.



Much like the background conundrum, the problem with this is that there are people (again, myself included) who like the guerrilla warfare aspect and taking the sneaky approach. I obviously can't vouch for others, but I myself often find the blunt-force sledgehammer or all-out shock assault approaches rather dull (after all, if I wanted a high-impact shock assault force, I would have started a Bretonnian army instead of a Wood Elf one), and take a lot of enjoyment out of using stealth and guile and guerrilla tactics to get the better out of theoretically superior forces. I like winning battles by being devious. And I imagine there's at least a few others out there who like it too.

Depends what you take guerrilla tactics to mean, I suppose. On the one hand, fighting a battle against an opponent you can never really hit or hurt is not fun, I get that. But if the conversation goes:
"Hi. This is my unit if chaos warriors. It includes a super killy lord, a BsB and is a horde. It contains over a 1000 points."
"That's nice. We are going to avoid you like crazy, kill your supporting units and pepper you with arrows until you decide to go home."
Then I feel that that is in the spirit of the army.

We cannot, and should not be able to go toe-to-toe with the big combat units. We should, as you say, be able to be sneaky and pick apart weaker, undefended targets. If the enemy is at all mobile, the game should be closer. But I do think there is room for a more tactical game of Warhammer than just a glorified game of conkers using mega-units...

HurrDurr
04-04-2014, 00:55
Hopefully Wood Elves end up being another shock to the metagame that requires lists able to deal with MSU instead of just steamrolling them. I don't understand this anti-fun thing, do we really need another army that walks in a straight line and then rolls dice? From all the battle reports I've seen most armies play that way with a few lists being the exception.

Edit: Point being to pull lists more towards being more balanced and therefore hopefully more "all-comers'" style.

Gustav Kohn
04-04-2014, 02:26
I agree with Hurrdurr & Spanielbear. Wood elf annoyance lists, if powered up a bit, will not make the game less fun, they will force the entire meta-game to change. People will need more solid flankers (instead of "chaff") in order to pin units in. It will become a more tactical game.

SpanielBear
04-04-2014, 04:00
I agree with Hurrdurr & Spanielbear. Wood elf annoyance lists, if powered up a bit, will not make the game less fun, they will force the entire meta-game to change. People will need more solid flankers (instead of "chaff") in order to pin units in. It will become a more tactical game.

Indeed, and I think the point you make about 'more power' is significant, because the other thing that needs to be encouraged is for Wood Elves to take risks.

If you are under powered, you are going to spend a lot of time hiding and doing not much else. The opponent will have a dull game and so will the Wood Elf; neither gets to actually engage with the other.

But if you have some hitting power, you start being aggressive. And that means an opponent who is smart and clever can start manipulating you, luring you into traps and actually get his teeth into you. And countering that, you can do the same to him. This is a much more fun and interesting game.

RasputinII
04-04-2014, 04:06
My worry is that if wood elves shake up the meta game due to being very shooty and avoidancey, it is to completely remove infantry from the game. If the only way to beat wood elves for half of the armies out there is small units of knights, than that's just poo. Infantry are cool. The steady erosion of them since the WOC book is sad.

HurrDurr
04-04-2014, 04:52
My worry is that if wood elves shake up the meta game due to being very shooty and avoidancey, it is to completely remove infantry from the game. If the only way to beat wood elves for half of the armies out there is small units of knights, than that's just poo. Infantry are cool. The steady erosion of them since the WOC book is sad.

That's one reason why I don't complain about our shooting being less efficient than brettonian/etc. We lose point for point to a lot of other shooting units, but who brings 160 peasant bowmen to try and outshoot a wood elf? They also can't fit the same shooting power in as small a frontage, or with the same mobility. So when people say gladeguard need to cost 10 I always strongly disagree, I'd rather they went up a point than down. The only things that really need more hitting power are either over 20ppm or eternal guard, everything else is almost perfect.

Spiney Norman
04-04-2014, 08:04
That's one reason why I don't complain about our shooting being less efficient than brettonian/etc. We lose point for point to a lot of other shooting units, but who brings 160 peasant bowmen to try and outshoot a wood elf? They also can't fit the same shooting power in as small a frontage, or with the same mobility. So when people say gladeguard need to cost 10 I always strongly disagree, I'd rather they went up a point than down. The only things that really need more hitting power are either over 20ppm or eternal guard, everything else is almost perfect.

I dunno, I would really like Wardancers to get true S4, S3 is just too limiting for them with no way (other than Wildform) to boost them, my WDs almost always end up functioning as a bodyguard for a noble/lord who does most of the damage with either the blades of Loec or a potion of strength.

Wildriders could do with hitting a little harder too, although I do find them usable in their current form. Warhawk riders really need a rescue package, currently they are just terradons with no rocks and that does not give them any kind of role.

Personally I still consider our glade guard to be a fairly good buy, a backbone of 30-40 of them are the basis of most of my lists at the moment.


Ah, Spiney. No one suggested that. Obviously one would ditch the shoddy high elf archer models for the better wood elf archer models. Problem solved. And make the models sell again, both for the wood elf players who convert to the new book, and the high elf players who want decent archer models (though why they haven't done this already is a puzzle to me).

So you're going to discontinue one army, and use its models to prop up the weaknesses in the model line of another army which has a completely different aesthetic just because you don't like wood elves?

Running them in with high elves would be tragic, warhammer high elves are just a bland copy of Tolkien's Noldor with all the redeeming features taken out. Still, this debate of folding armies into other armies and weaker armies getting squatted rears its ugly head every now and again, its been a long time since it has actually happened.

Kakapo42
04-04-2014, 08:12
I dunno, I would really like Wardancers to get true S4, S3 is just too limiting for them with no way (other than Wildform) to boost them, my WDs almost always end up functioning as a bodyguard for a noble/lord who does most of the damage with either the blades of Loec or a potion of strength.

To be fair, they can also get Killing Blow attacks. It's perhaps not as good as higher strength in some regards, but the ability to neutralise any infantry or cavalry unit instantly on the roll of a 6 is better than just S3.

laribold
04-04-2014, 11:07
Yes elven colonisation would be great, and nice twist to the lore, instead of the constant dying race a kingdom trying to expand to other forrest give them every chance to fight some other race rather than stick to the "we're being attacked." resource. You could even go as far as lessen the stats of certain units saying they're a young generation of elves.
Ariel and Orion give the order to protect the forrests of the old world and done

From my servoskull


This I like a lot. It takes WE from being passive/sedentary in the Old World to a much more aggressive force. Essentially make them a (very) militant version of the Woodland Trust/Greenpeace!

As for the 'M**** Prowess' that Wood Elves should get. I agree it should probably be Marksman's Prowess but I really, really hope it isn't just re-roll misses when shooting. We (and WE) don't need more rerolling in the game and it does pretty much nothing to help where WE need it...

Instead, I'd like to see:
'Marksman's Prowess: Any roll of 6 to wound ignores armour saves'.

It's a simple mechanism that doesn't rely on re-rolls and is familiar to all players already (Poison/KB/Pred Fighter all have the "6-roll is special" mechanism already).

Most importantly it gives WE a chance to do some damage to Monstrous Cav and Chariots that can otherwise go through a WE army like a dose of salts.

I'd also like to see WE Bows be +1S at short range (imagine getting Wyssan's off on a nice big Glade Guard unit!) and/or Multiple Shots (# of Attacks). I don't think either of these are massive changes but just help end the nonsense of characters being less hard hitting than Glade Guard.

Wardancers need a total re-write (but the Sisters of Slaughter give an indication of the direction they could go in)

There's plenty of other stuff but most others have covered that already.

Alltaken
04-04-2014, 12:13
Wardancers S4 or 2A basic, dances: kb, - 2 armor, +1A/S (whicever the unit doesnt get), disrupt ranks. +1S on charge

From my servoskull

SpanielBear
04-04-2014, 13:07
This I like a lot. It takes WE from being passive/sedentary in the Old World to a much more aggressive force. Essentially make them a (very) militant version of the Woodland Trust/Greenpeace!

As for the 'M**** Prowess' that Wood Elves should get. I agree it should probably be Marksman's Prowess but I really, really hope it isn't just re-roll misses when shooting. We (and WE) don't need more rerolling in the game and it does pretty much nothing to help where WE need it...

Instead, I'd like to see:
'Marksman's Prowess: Any roll of 6 to wound ignores armour saves'.

It's a simple mechanism that doesn't rely on re-rolls and is familiar to all players already (Poison/KB/Pred Fighter all have the "6-roll is special" mechanism already).

Most importantly it gives WE a chance to do some damage to Monstrous Cav and Chariots that can otherwise go through a WE army like a dose of salts.

I'd also like to see WE Bows be +1S at short range (imagine getting Wyssan's off on a nice big Glade Guard unit!) and/or Multiple Shots (# of Attacks). I don't think either of these are massive changes but just help end the nonsense of characters being less hard hitting than Glade Guard.

Wardancers need a total re-write (but the Sisters of Slaughter give an indication of the direction they could go in)

There's plenty of other stuff but most others have covered that already.

You know wyssans only adds strength to close combat, right?

laribold
04-04-2014, 13:16
You know wyssans only adds strength to close combat, right?

Ah sorry, I didn't write that very clearly. I meant that Wood Elf bows should be: Strength (as user) at long range and Strength (as user +1) at short range.

That way Wyssan's would have an impact taking Glade Guard to S4/5 at long/short range.

Friedtaterexplosion
04-04-2014, 14:04
This I like a lot. It takes WE from being passive/sedentary in the Old World to a much more aggressive force. Essentially make them a (very) militant version of the Woodland Trust/Greenpeace!

As for the 'M**** Prowess' that Wood Elves should get. I agree it should probably be Marksman's Prowess but I really, really hope it isn't just re-roll misses when shooting. We (and WE) don't need more rerolling in the game and it does pretty much nothing to help where WE need it...

Instead, I'd like to see:
'Marksman's Prowess: Any roll of 6 to wound ignores armour saves'.

It's a simple mechanism that doesn't rely on re-rolls and is familiar to all players already (Poison/KB/Pred Fighter all have the "6-roll is special" mechanism already).

Most importantly it gives WE a chance to do some damage to Monstrous Cav and Chariots that can otherwise go through a WE army like a dose of salts.

I'd also like to see WE Bows be +1S at short range (imagine getting Wyssan's off on a nice big Glade Guard unit!) and/or Multiple Shots (# of Attacks). I don't think either of these are massive changes but just help end the nonsense of characters being less hard hitting than Glade Guard.

Wardancers need a total re-write (but the Sisters of Slaughter give an indication of the direction they could go in)

There's plenty of other stuff but most others have covered that already.

This. WE need to remain glass cannons- but even glass cannons still need to be able to punch through armor.

Alltaken
04-04-2014, 15:01
This. WE need to remain glass cannons- but even glass cannons still need to be able to punch through armor.

If They dont punch through armor they're no cannon at all really. Dark Elves are glass cannons

From my servoskull

Lastavenger
04-04-2014, 16:45
If They dont punch through armor they're no cannon at all really. Dark Elves are glass cannons
DE aren't glass cannon, they are normal cannon. Corrsairs are +4 core unit, crossbowmen (or darkshrouds if you will) with light armor and shield do really well in CC (they can easily defend themselves against small units), cold one knights (2+), hydras, kharibdyss, lot of hard to kill (1+ rerollable or 3++ against shooting) flying on pegs characters and warlocks. DE can deal lot of damage and take take damage.

Alltaken
04-04-2014, 17:03
DE aren't glass cannon, they are normal cannon. Corrsairs are +4 core unit, crossbowmen (or darkshrouds if you will) with light armor and shield do really well in CC (they can easily defend themselves against small units), cold one knights (2+), hydras, kharibdyss, lot of hard to kill (1+ rerollable or 3++ against shooting) flying on pegs characters and warlocks. DE can deal lot of damage and take take damage.

Really? 2 units with armor and a monster?
5+ is nearly useless armor and generally ignored. Black guard and executioners are 5+, hags got no armor.
1 cav unit, 1 charriot. He, have 3 chariots, 2 cav and 4++, and a monster.

From my servoskull

SpanielBear
04-04-2014, 17:41
Really? 2 units with armor and a monster?
5+ is nearly useless armor and generally ignored. Black guard and executioners are 5+, hags got no armor.
1 cav unit, 1 charriot. He, have 3 chariots, 2 cav and 4++, and a monster.

From my servoskull

Well by that logic, the only army that would count as being armoured would be warriors of chaos. If they weren't such a big presence in the meta, S4 would still be a really decent score.

HurrDurr
05-04-2014, 01:30
Totally forgot about Wardancers (sad). They need an offensive boost, I don't mind S3/4 on the charge(S4 always isn't a bad option but I like the conditional flavor of charging, seems rewarding) but they need more kick elsewhere, I think either 4++ or 5++ with MR 1-2, maybe another attack on their profile or 2 supporting attacks per model. Then change dances to +1S, +1A, disrupt ranks or some multiple of armor piercing. Could up the costs if those changes went through. Wildriders are decent but do need improvement, too soft for their cost, really their speed and str 5 charge is the only reason they are even played. Warhawks are terrible so any improvement anywhere is welcome, I've literally never used them so I don't know where they could improve them other than points. It seems terrible to judge a unit before you've used it but when you check out warhawks...

Lord Anathir
05-04-2014, 02:01
they need more reliable armor penetration. -2s and -3s from somewhere with many attacks(can be wardancers, can be eternal guard, can be a new unit) so they can be viable while keeping their skirmishy style and not fielding horde sized units. Treemen need to be more tanky to the level of where it was when the current book came out at the end of 6th.

and just tune up everything else really. There are tons of completely unnecessary ideas in this thread that manifest a lack of understanding of how the current book works and why they are losing in the current meta.

Althwen
05-04-2014, 11:02
There are tons of completely unnecessary ideas in this thread that manifest a lack of understanding of how the current book works and why they are losing in the current meta.

You cannot blame people for having unnecessary ideas when it comes to their favorite armies. Also, you can't blame us for having unnecessary ideas at all, since the things that would take WE from the underdog they are now, to a fully competitive army that could hold their won in the current meta, aren't all that hard to implement and there aren't that many of them.
There's 4 problems with the army as it stands and all of them are caused by the passing of time and evolution of other armies. Whereas some units have always been more effective than others, in the beginning WE could afford to field the less effective units without losing by default (very much like every other armybook). As it stands now, even with their most elite selection of units they can't stand up to several new influences in the meta. Monstrous Cavalry, a multitude of 1+ saves, the stepping up rule and the nerf on skirmishers need to be dealt with primarily.Everyone here agrees one it and considers it a given. So moving past that, we can now comfortably discuss our personal ideas in General, which may come across as unecessary, but hey, I'm not the one receiving a paycheck for my services rendered to GW at the end of every month, so any and ALL ideas I have are quite unnecessary.


As to a previous poster who couldn't imagine the prupose of warhawk riders, I'd have to agree with you that they seem kind of baffling, but I've made good use of them as a flying version of Glade Riders. They are even more mobile and thusly can start their redirecting and setting up double flees even behind enemy lines. Not to mention they're the best Warmachine hunters we have since everyone and their mother will have figured out how to block scouts from their deployment zones by now.

I also don't think Glade guard will (and should) go down in points if their rules remain largely the same but with an added ASF and some random M**** Prowess. I'd sooner expect them to go up a point.

I would like to see a distinction something like the following:
-Glade guard: Same as now: ranked up archers numbering 10+
-Scouts: Bows (no longbows), gain str4 at short range, skirmish, Vanguard. Numbering 5+
-Waywatchers: Same as now but with an addition to killing blow and no AS on 6 to wound on short range.

It would reinvigorate the use of scouts and make them different from their superior brothers; waywatchers in such a way that they'd have their own purpose.

theunwantedbeing
05-04-2014, 15:54
One thing the wood elves lack is any spearmen choice, this is a staple for the other two elven races so giving them access to a cheap spearman unit would certainly help bring up the numbers for those who want an army like that. They'de be a point less than the others due to a lack of light armour (I can't see wood elves getting much if any armour for most elf units).

Glade riders just need to be cheaper, the lack of light armour would put them at 15pts, 18pts with longbows (could easily be st4 short range longbows).

Scouts would be moved to a special slot, but get st4 short range longbows. Likely being given the option for additional hand weapons as well.

Wardancers could really do with the ability to count as being equipped with certain weapons, great weapons specifically for a much needed strength boost.

Warhawks really need a second attack, along with a points drop. They could easily be given access to St4 at short range bows.
They'de still lack armour of course which is the main theme for the wood elves.

Eternal Guard need stubborn as standard, perhaps even getting a 4+ parry in close combat.

Wild Riders ideally would just get a second attack on their profile and lose the +1 attack when not charging rule.
That then gives them that punch of the charge that the army lacks, maybe get an option for shields so they're not stuck with a 5+ armour save and their forest spirit ward.
If they were given the full forest spirit rule and it became like daemons, the unit would be effectively unbreakable as a result which gives more tactical options and allows them to be an anvil unit.

Dryads getting ranks and the "daemon" rule would also make for more tactical options, they'de also not be raining on the parade of wardancers (assuming they keep skirmish) by being a cheaper core option for a combat skirmish unit.

Treekin and Treeman would work slightly differently and be a little harder to break.
The Treeman could even be given a rule that means it is completely unbreakable unless harmed that round, you could buff the strength noticably as well to 8 (if a kharybdiss and so forth can be strength 7, a living tree can easily be strength 8) and this gives him some real armour negating potential.

Waywatchers would stay rare, St4 at short range like everyone else. Killing blow on top of that too, extra hand weapons.
Perhaps a trap special rule that means any enemy charging them must take a dangerous terrain test.

Great eagles like the High elf slot would be available in unit's and not just as single slot choices.

I'de like to see a warhawk mount, which allows the rider to be joined to a warhawk unit.
Have the great eagle as a mount as well, but lack the ability to join units to keep it different.

I'de add in forest swarms as a unit, with the ability to upgrade to forest spirits.

That for me seems a sensible change to the army, it keeps the guerilla fighter style relatively intact while opening up more options for other ways to fight a battle.
Plus other units get more viability.

SpanielBear
05-04-2014, 16:50
One thing the wood elves lack is any spearmen choice, this is a staple for the other two elven races so giving them access to a cheap spearman unit would certainly help bring up the numbers for those who want an army like that. They'de be a point less than the others due to a lack of light armour (I can't see wood elves getting much if any armour for most elf units).

Glade riders just need to be cheaper, the lack of light armour would put them at 15pts, 18pts with longbows (could easily be st4 short range longbows).

Scouts would be moved to a special slot, but get st4 short range longbows. Likely being given the option for additional hand weapons as well.

Wardancers could really do with the ability to count as being equipped with certain weapons, great weapons specifically for a much needed strength boost.

Warhawks really need a second attack, along with a points drop. They could easily be given access to St4 at short range bows.
They'de still lack armour of course which is the main theme for the wood elves.

Eternal Guard need stubborn as standard, perhaps even getting a 4+ parry in close combat.

Wild Riders ideally would just get a second attack on their profile and lose the +1 attack when not charging rule.
That then gives them that punch of the charge that the army lacks, maybe get an option for shields so they're not stuck with a 5+ armour save and their forest spirit ward.
If they were given the full forest spirit rule and it became like daemons, the unit would be effectively unbreakable as a result which gives more tactical options and allows them to be an anvil unit.

Dryads getting ranks and the "daemon" rule would also make for more tactical options, they'de also not be raining on the parade of wardancers (assuming they keep skirmish) by being a cheaper core option for a combat skirmish unit.

Treekin and Treeman would work slightly differently and be a little harder to break.
The Treeman could even be given a rule that means it is completely unbreakable unless harmed that round, you could buff the strength noticably as well to 8 (if a kharybdiss and so forth can be strength 7, a living tree can easily be strength 8) and this gives him some real armour negating potential.

Waywatchers would stay rare, St4 at short range like everyone else. Killing blow on top of that too, extra hand weapons.
Perhaps a trap special rule that means any enemy charging them must take a dangerous terrain test.

Great eagles like the High elf slot would be available in unit's and not just as single slot choices.

I'de like to see a warhawk mount, which allows the rider to be joined to a warhawk unit.
Have the great eagle as a mount as well, but lack the ability to join units to keep it different.

I'de add in forest swarms as a unit, with the ability to upgrade to forest spirits.

That for me seems a sensible change to the army, it keeps the guerilla fighter style relatively intact while opening up more options for other ways to fight a battle.
Plus other units get more viability.

I agree with most of this. Especially 2 attack Wild Riders.

I'd also like to see talismanic tattoos become a wider upgrade option- a weaker version for just a 6++ without the magic resistance. I agree that Wood Elves should be weak in actual armour, but ward saves should be around to compensate. It would distinguish them more from their cousins, emphasising that they are more bound to magic and forest spirits than the real world.

So with the spearman example you give, having shields for a 6+ basic, then the option to give a unit tattoos for +2 points per model?

Spiney Norman
05-04-2014, 17:03
Really? 2 units with armor and a monster?
5+ is nearly useless armor and generally ignored. Black guard and executioners are 5+, hags got no armor.
1 cav unit, 1 charriot. He, have 3 chariots, 2 cav and 4++, and a monster.

From my servoskull

Well, there are glass cannons and there are glass cannons, wood elves make dark elves look positively robust by comparison.

Let's call dark elves a porcelain cannon while wood elves can stay the blown-glass-bauble cannon they always have been.

Alltaken
05-04-2014, 17:09
Except they dont punch half that de punch. We dont scale since we're totally outdated.
In a man to man, armor for armor, or even magical resistance (raising dead) , they get out classed in resistance to pretty much every other army or close to it, while packing an insane damage out put. Yeah I might be overstating, but I hope it explains my point. Dont want to get in too deep, cell phone writing sucks

From my servoskull

theunwantedbeing
05-04-2014, 17:14
I'd also like to see talismanic tattoos become a wider upgrade option- a weaker version for just a 6++ without the magic resistance. I agree that Wood Elves should be weak in actual armour, but ward saves should be around to compensate. It would distinguish them more from their cousins, emphasising that they are more bound to magic and forest spirits than the real world.

So with the spearman example you give, having shields for a 6+ basic, then the option to give a unit tattoos for +2 points per model?

I didn't even consider that, it's a really good idea.
As a 6+ ward with MR(1) I can't see it being worth more than 1pt/model personally just down to how little use it actually provides.

SpanielBear
05-04-2014, 17:31
I didn't even consider that, it's a really good idea.
As a 6+ ward with MR(1) I can't see it being worth more than 1pt/model personally just down to how little use it actually provides.

Maybe, I just fear that a ward for 1 point could be a bit cheap- I mean, adding light armour to a unit costs the same, but that can be removed by S4 really easily. A 6++ has the advantage of working just as well against a strength 10 attack as a strength 3. With additional MR, you also have a 5++ against magic missiles and the like, which yes is situational but still a nice benefit. +2 ppm and keep MR(1)?

Althwen
05-04-2014, 19:47
Maybe, I just fear that a ward for 1 point could be a bit cheap- I mean, adding light armour to a unit costs the same, but that can be removed by S4 really easily. A 6++ has the advantage of working just as well against a strength 10 attack as a strength 3. With additional MR, you also have a 5++ against magic missiles and the like, which yes is situational but still a nice benefit. +2 ppm and keep MR(1)?

I'm sorry, the next thing doesn't have any direct bearing on the WE discussion, but your comment suddenly reminded me of a couple of more variations on saves that existed up to and in the 5th edition of warhammer. Something like 'unmodified' save or 'magical save'. That should definetly come back in the next edition. I believe it was one of those things that compensated for not being able to have a very high armour save. (1+ AS was an absolute rarity back then).

Anyways, back to WE. That talismanic option on spearmen/eternal guard is a neat idea.

SpanielBear
05-04-2014, 20:58
I'm sorry, the next thing doesn't have any direct bearing on the WE discussion, but your comment suddenly reminded me of a couple of more variations on saves that existed up to and in the 5th edition of warhammer. Something like 'unmodified' save or 'magical save'. That should definetly come back in the next edition. I believe it was one of those things that compensated for not being able to have a very high armour save. (1+ AS was an absolute rarity back then).

Anyways, back to WE. That talismanic option on spearmen/eternal guard is a neat idea.

I remember those- Lizardmen had loads, scaly skin was one such save back then. "Tough little skinks"...

Spiney Norman
06-04-2014, 16:28
Except they dont punch half that de punch. We dont scale since we're totally outdated.
In a man to man, armor for armor, or even magical resistance (raising dead) , they get out classed in resistance to pretty much every other army or close to it, while packing an insane damage out put. Yeah I might be overstating, but I hope it explains my point. Dont want to get in too deep, cell phone writing sucks

From my servoskull

I don't think anyone would disagree with that assessment, but the wood elf book is two full editions behind the curve, and DE have had two brand new (and highly competitive) books since the last wood elf outing. I think that if the rumours of a new book in May for the welfs do pan out everything will be put right.

Alltaken
06-04-2014, 16:58
I don't think anyone would disagree with that assessment, but the wood elf book is two full editions behind the curve, and DE have had two brand new (and highly competitive) books since the last wood elf outing. I think that if the rumours of a new book in May for the welfs do pan out everything will be put right.

Isha and Kournos hear you

From my servoskull

HurrDurr
14-04-2014, 04:58
Waywatchers/Waywatcher kindred - Bow shot strength is equal to your ballistic skill minus the to hit modifier, so a BS7 lord shooting long range hits str 6. Was posted on Asrai.org and seems like a cool idea, throw in bow of loren and it seems really balanced.

Spiney Norman
14-04-2014, 19:48
Waywatchers/Waywatcher kindred - Bow shot strength is equal to your ballistic skill minus the to hit modifier, so a BS7 lord shooting long range hits str 6. Was posted on Asrai.org and seems like a cool idea, throw in bow of loren and it seems really balanced.

Is that a joke? Assuming WWs would still be scouts they could be shooting Str 5 arrows hitting on 2s from T1, what would you charge for them, about 40pts each? Not to mention how exactly are you planning to justify increasing strength of arrows based on archer skill.

I don't see an arrow hitting with more force than a musket ball as being remotely sensible, and the idea that a highborn should be able to shoot up to 4 str 7 arrows at short range is nothing short of insanity.

HurrDurr
14-04-2014, 22:21
Magic arrows.

theunwantedbeing
14-04-2014, 22:45
Magic arrows.

Fine for a magical bow, but less fine as a skill that waywatchers have.
Especially if it means St5 or more shots hitting on a 2+ as that would be overpowered.

HurrDurr
15-04-2014, 02:03
Okay maybe it would be pretty good, but I don't know about outright overpowered. That all depends on the cost of the unit and the resilience of said unit. Right now anything str3 that doesn't rely on BS to hit them has an easy time clearing them. If they were 35 points a unit of 10 would be 350 points, in a 2500pnt game that's 14% of your army running around with no saves of any kind hoping not to be run down or magic'd off the table, throw in a hero with MR and suddenly its a 500 point unit and takes up at least 1/5 of your entire army, and still gets slaughtered in close combat. Which at that point they will be worth the dedicated 1-2 units to run them down when they cost that much.
Don't forget there's almost no chance they, treemen, or eagles will be moved out of rare, which is an important chunk of points in the WE army. (all things subject to change with the new book ofcourse so everything said here is at best speculation)

Maybe it makes them too elite even if you "can" find a points cost that is justified. I would just like for them to stand out a little more than they do now as scout/elite shooters.

Sanai
15-04-2014, 04:55
How would YOU improve the Wood Elves?

I would make them ride dinosaurs and arm them with laser weaponry.

MyNameDidntFit
15-04-2014, 04:56
Not to mention how exactly are you planning to justify increasing strength of arrows based on archer skill.

Easily: shoot someone in the throat/eye slit/etc and you're more likely to bypass their armour and kill them than you are hitting them in centre mass. In Warhammer "Strength" is how you define "To Wound" chances.

Althwen
15-04-2014, 06:12
Easily: shoot someone in the throat/eye slit/etc and you're more likely to bypass their armour and kill them than you are hitting them in centre mass. In Warhammer "Strength" is how you define "To Wound" chances.

Which is represented by killing blow (which they alrdy have). The fact that this rule is outdated is another matter.

HurrDurr
15-04-2014, 06:48
Which is represented by killing blow (which they alrdy have). The fact that this rule is outdated is another matter.

It happens to be the matter up for discussion in this thread, how would you improve an army book full of outdated rules, and I say to you magical strength 7 arrows.

Althwen
15-04-2014, 07:03
It happens to be the matter up for discussion in this thread, how would you improve an army book full of outdated rules, and I say to you magical strength 7 arrows.

Loke Spiney alrdy said: that would be imba.
I actually stated a few pages back that WW should get the 'on a 6 to wound no armour saves allowed' rule in addition to the KB special rule. That would be a more balanced fix than your suggestion because it doesnt change their effectiveness versus the things alrdy affected by KB but now includes the newest spawns of 8th ed.

As for Magical. ..only if WW can be upgraded to forest spirits.

HurrDurr
15-04-2014, 07:20
Being honest it was really more of a joke, we don't need cannon bows. :D


Shooting is really hard to balanced compared to close combat, my logic comes from seeing other elites and how strong they are at performing their role. White lions, skullcrushers, demigryphs, executioners, hammerers. If those units can be vastly stronger than most of the basic core choices then why can't waywatchers? In 8th edition their rules barely set them apart from basic archers, mathematically they are not killing too many more knights than gladeguard fire given their cost and rare slot. So it would be the equivalent of whitelions being chewed up by empire free company. But now I'm starting to sound like a broken record.

So far based on the rumors I might be spending low instead of high, giant trees with wooden human faces aren't my thing so it would be a hard sell, the feral claw wielding elves sound awesome though. Point being I might be falling back onto the units already existing in the book so I hope they get enough attention, which is sad because I've been saving small bits here and there for about a year just to be able to go big on this release. (a lot of assumptions here I know, could all turn out to be a wildly different outcome)

MyNameDidntFit
15-04-2014, 07:56
I actually stated a few pages back that WW should get the 'on a 6 to wound no armour saves allowed' rule in addition to the KB special rule. That would be a more balanced fix than your suggestion because it doesnt change their effectiveness versus the things alrdy affected by KB but now includes the newest spawns of 8th ed.

So, our "balanced" Rare infantry get KB which only comes into play against Infantry and Cavalry. Outside of that they're worse than the standard Glade Guard... so why are the in the book at this point?

Althwen
15-04-2014, 08:07
So, our "balanced" Rare infantry get KB which only comes into play against Infantry and Cavalry. Outside of that they're worse than the standard Glade Guard... so why are the in the book at this point?

Elite elves with 2 hand weapons that can not only snipe lords off dragons and single mages behind enemy lines but with the new ASF can more than handle most chaff and waachine units?

Edit: maybe a little less elite. I keep forgetting they brought down their ws from 5 to 4 in the last book. One of those things that make me so envious of Dark Elf shades.

ChargeAndDie
15-04-2014, 10:53
I think we all agree that they will get a points decrease for sure. They now cost twice as much as a glade guard for almost the same effect. (failing a armor save is sometimes easier than rolling a 6 to wound. imagine if they both shoot at Empire knights with 1+ armor save. The glade guard would need the empire player to roll 1 for his armor save and the waywatchers would need to roll a 6, both being a 1/6 chance.)

I agree they will get better with ASF but some rule like sniper for the champion or bringing traps back would help desperately. They are naked t3 models after all. Shades are currently so much better it isn't funny.

MyNameDidntFit
15-04-2014, 11:33
Elite elves with 2 hand weapons that can not only snipe lords off dragons and single mages behind enemy lines but with the new ASF can more than handle most chaff and waachine units?

Excellent, we have a Rare choice that specialises in hunting chaff! Because, face it, Dragon Lords still have to randomise and then hope for a 6 To Wound and single mages are going to jump into a unit until they can 2-dice a magic missile that kills the Waywatchers to an elf first turn...

Even with a rule to ignore armour on 6s when KB isn't in effect they're still a RARE unit where the strategy is "hope for 6s or they're useless unless you want to clear chaff"... that's not a Rare unit, that's Special and 15ppm TOPS.

Althwen
15-04-2014, 13:40
Excellent, we have a Rare choice that specialises in hunting chaff! Because, face it, Dragon Lords still have to randomise and then hope for a 6 To Wound and single mages are going to jump into a unit until they can 2-dice a magic missile that kills the Waywatchers to an elf first turn...

Even with a rule to ignore armour on 6s when KB isn't in effect they're still a RARE unit where the strategy is "hope for 6s or they're useless unless you want to clear chaff"... that's not a Rare unit, that's Special and 15ppm TOPS.

Without wanting to turn this into a thread of how one should play his WE's, I think the ability to infiltrate behind enemy lines as easily as waywatchers can, with the added protection of being a waywatchers (an add. -1 to hit) and then to be able to KB a character is rather better than you make it out to be.

I've had games where I focussed all my GG shooting on a 20 man goblin bunker after having deployed my waywatchers right behind them. A soon as the randomisation of hits starts, the odds of dropping the level 4 orc shaman hiding in there suddenly make them worth their points.
Same goes for Bretonnian knight buses and even Vampire knight buses. Lone scar vets. Lone DE characters. The list goes on.
Keep your waywatchers handy and really think about what your shooting at, and they are well worth their points.

However, the addidtion of targets like MC that aren't susceptible to KB now demands waywatchers should go down in points. Once again it's the meta that's changed. But since it will change again (and most likely two or three more times before WE will get another book) I would rather have these guys in my book than not. Even for their current cost and limited effectiveness, I usually take two units of 6 waywatchers and watch people drop their battleplans once they realise their characters are not even safe in their bunkers.

And hunting chaff is invaluable when you're WE, since our entire army currently consists of chaff that needs to be able to move around. The enemy's chaff and characters have priority from turn 1. Once the chaff is gone, WE can start worrying about them big units.

...guess I didn't really follow the advice I gave in the first line of this post.

SpanielBear
15-04-2014, 13:43
For my money?
Keep Way Watchers in rare.
Boost both BS and WS to 5.
Make light armour and/or tattoos purchasable upgrades
Strength 4 short-range
Poison at any range
Killing blow short-range- roll any poison wounds to see if killing blow takes effect.
Keep current scouting rules and -1 to hit them at range.
And for the real wish listing cherry- purchasable spite upgrades, providing bonuses like Glamour (unit is -1 to be hit in close combat), Briar-snare (charging units must take dangerous terrain test) or Fae Guidance (Shooting attacks are S4 at long range and are magical).

20ppm base. +10 points for musician, +15 for champion with extra attack and ballistic skill. +2ppm for light armour, +3ppm for tattoos. +15 points per unit for an accompanying troupe of spites.

A fully upgraded unit of let's say six waywatchers would then be 190 points.

Spiney Norman
15-04-2014, 14:36
For my money?
Keep Way Watchers in rare.
Boost both BS and WS to 5.
Make light armour and/or tattoos purchasable upgrades
Strength 4 short-range
Poison at any range
Killing blow short-range- roll any poison wounds to see if killing blow takes effect.
Keep current scouting rules and -1 to hit them at range.
And for the real wish listing cherry- purchasable spite upgrades, providing bonuses like Glamour (unit is -1 to be hit in close combat), Briar-snare (charging units must take dangerous terrain test) or Fae Guidance (Shooting attacks are S4 at long range and are magical).

20ppm base. +10 points for musician, +15 for champion with extra attack and ballistic skill. +2ppm for light armour, +3ppm for tattoos. +15 points per unit for an accompanying troupe of spites.

A fully upgraded unit of let's say six waywatchers would then be 190 points.

Poisoned arrows don't really strike me as 'in-character' for wood elves, armour piercing would probably fit better to represent them shooting at the weak points in your armour. I'm not really a fan of piling on random uncharacterful bonuses just to make units better.

Also 3ppm to give a T3 unit 6++, thats a joke surely? Anything more than 1 pt is pricing it out of viability (plus it steals something that is uniquely wardancery at the moment). Also there really is no point in giving an option for light armour to a unit which cannot increase its AS by any other means (i.e. access to mount or shield), no-one would take it, especially not at 2ppm.

SpanielBear
15-04-2014, 15:00
Poisoned arrows don't really strike me as 'in-character' for wood elves, armour piercing would probably fit better to represent them shooting at the weak points in your armour. I'm not really a fan of piling on random uncharacterful bonuses just to make units better.

Also 3ppm to give a T3 unit 6++, thats a joke surely? Anything more than 1 pt is pricing it out of viability (plus it steals something that is uniquely wardancery at the moment). Also there really is no point in giving an option for light armour to a unit which cannot increase its AS by any other means (i.e. access to mount or shield), no-one would take it, especially not at 2ppm.

6++ and MR. Which would help against that 2-dicing wizard referred to earlier. I take your point regarding light armour. If no poison, I would make them S4 at any range with AP, then killing blow close range. It would make them very effective at hunting down elites as well as war-machines.

As to the war-dancers being unique with tattoos; first off wild-riders have them currently as well. Secondly, given the dances and other special rules war-dancers have, I don't think their ward save is the only thing keeping them unique. And finally, as I've said earlier in the thread, I'd think wood elves (characterful) lack of armour would be offset slightly by the ability to purchase a minor ward. It would emphasise that they are no longer simple elves, but that their becoming attuned to Athel Loren is making them more fae-like.

Phazael
15-04-2014, 16:10
Their shooting is fine. Really, the army needs some combat options and better wizards. A lot can simply be done through repricing things. If we assume that the army is getting ASF, true forest ward saves, and full book lore access like the other elf books, most of the issues are solved. Across the board price reductions on certain units (anything not a forest spirit, basically) would make most things viable. Wardancers should just get tightened up (4+ ward in CC, KB, S4 all the time) to keep them simple and playable. Warhawks need a serious stat boost (add a third wound and one more attack). Drastically cheapen up Waywatchers or let their shots ignore armor so that there is some degree of ranged threat against MCav in the army. This is a book where minor tweaks on the combat end of things will go a long way.

HurrDurr
15-04-2014, 20:04
I've tried 2AP at all ranges and str 4 short and it seemed overpowered. I think some combination of str 4 and 1 armor pierce with different ranges is the easiest solution. Also give us back 36" range, that was a characterful part of the army.

Assuming numbers are just for example and not set in stone both of spanielbear's suggestions in the new book would be absolutely fantastic. I would like tattoos to be an elite stamp they just throw on our expensive units because they all share a common weakness, high price low toughness. A 4-5 ward save gives them a decent save where armor would either be useless or they give us too much and suddenly they can stand up to hordes of weak minions which were meant to overrun small elites.

Kayosiv
15-04-2014, 21:49
I'd be good with Waywatchers being strength 4 at short range and armor piercing always. I'd be neat if the champion got Sniper at no extra cost.

HurrDurr
29-04-2014, 23:26
I told you magic arrows and you laughed at me, well now you shall suffer from an army of nothing but MAGICAL ARROWS. MUAIAHAUAHAUABAUHAAH

Alltaken
30-04-2014, 15:27
WE need to have dryads skirmishing S4 with armor save. I sort of agree with 6++, reduced Iniciative

Total lack of prowess, asf on all elves, lore of loren.

Correct character magic items allowance.

Branch wraith and treeman spite upgrades - skills. Treekin S5.

Wardancers S4 on charge at least. Or S3 strong drop point and play them strongly for redirecting and reducing rank bonuses.

Sisters get the beast spell they have and earth blood. And moving to rare

Rangers not getting the stupid conditional extra attack. Just 1 S5 halbred, or S6 two handed weapon (that means S4 unit)

Waywatchers get a - 1 to be shot and getting shooting upgrades maybe? Keeping the: no armor save or - 3 or 2 shots options.

Move and shoot with penalty, S4 at short distance on ALL BOWS.

I got no issues with the tree except its lousy amount of attacks

Love Eg as just stubborn spearmen.

Let shadow dancer be a lvl 2 maybe?
I wont say points, I dont think I could cost things appropiately

Something to make warhawks riders a real shooting or combat unit, if not turn it full chaff / redirector

From my servoskull

Poseidal
30-04-2014, 15:31
I don't mind Rangers conditional attacks, but those arms look like they should be S4. Maybe their Bardiche could be called a Halberd rather than Great Weapon.

duffybear1988
30-04-2014, 18:39
They should have cut points on all the units, made the forest spirit rule a normal 5+ ward and given wizards access to all lores. Sprinkle in new units, the new change to waywatcher arrows and bish bash bosh job done. There are too many flaws with the new book. Too many changes for the sake of change.

SpanielBear
30-04-2014, 19:11
They should have cut points on all the units, made the forest spirit rule a normal 5+ ward and given wizards access to all lores. Sprinkle in new units, the new change to waywatcher arrows and bish bash bosh job done. There are too many flaws with the new book. Too many changes for the sake of change.

Disagreement from the SpanielBear. The new army relies a lot more on synergy and units acting in concert for maximum effect. And we have definately gone a step beyond glass-cannon to full on Faberge Tactical Nuke. Flaws there are, as always, but I like how the Wood Elves keep that same feeling of being able to trap opponents with surprise moves, tricks and devastating charges.

mostlyharmless
30-04-2014, 19:52
No bear cavalry . . . sad times, man, sad times . . .

duffybear1988
30-04-2014, 20:23
Disagreement from the SpanielBear. The new army relies a lot more on synergy and units acting in concert for maximum effect. And we have definately gone a step beyond glass-cannon to full on Faberge Tactical Nuke. Flaws there are, as always, but I like how the Wood Elves keep that same feeling of being able to trap opponents with surprise moves, tricks and devastating charges.

I'm not sure it relies on synergy so much as magic buffs and debuffs. The old list relied on synergy, this one it remains to be seen.

Imperator64
02-05-2014, 11:17
How to improve woodelves? Bring back the old book.

Kakapo42
02-05-2014, 12:00
How to improve woodelves? Bring back the old book.

I wholeheartedly agree. I'll give the new book a read-through to see if anything can be salvaged in my eyes, but at the moment it's looking like my fledgling Wood Elf army will be relegated only to modelling/painting, background stories, and the occasional friendly game where I'm allowed to use the previous book.

Spiney Norman
02-05-2014, 12:46
How to improve woodelves? Bring back the old book.

Right, you want to sacrifice the overall competitiveness of the army for the sake of your favourite special rule and a magic lore that has sucked balls for the last 6 years. Have fun with that.

This book brings wood elves up to the level with the rest of 8th edition, yeah I know its not the new broken shizz that will sweep tournements, but the fact that this reaction has accompanied just about every army book release for 8th edition and they have almost all shaken out absolutely fine makes me pretty convinced Wood elves will too.

I think with very few extreme examples (the tomb king derp, the chaos warrior DP) the designers have done an amazing job of keeping 8th edition stable and balanced, for me this consistency is what has made 8th edition the best yet for me. There is no 7th ed daemons ripping up the table at every competitive event out there, and if they can keep the standard up with the last three books that will be awesome.

I get that some don't like change, and almost everything about this new book is change, but instead of flinging your internet-tantrums in the direction of anyone who will listen how about getting your models out and turning the theory-hammer into experience?

Kakapo42
02-05-2014, 13:04
Right, you want to sacrifice the overall competitiveness of the army for the sake of your favourite special rule and a magic lore that has sucked balls for the last 6 years. Have fun with that.

And Spites. Don't forget the Spites. :p

I think my main gripes about this new book aren't so much that it's made lots of changes, but that those changes have come at the expense of what was there before. This new book seems to have rebooted the army from the ground up, whereas I myself would have much preferred to have it build on the previous book, with the previous book acting as a core foundation. A 6th edition Tau book, rather than a 5th edition Dark Eldar one, to use a 40k analogy (probably a bad one at that, but it was the closest I could think of).

duffybear1988
02-05-2014, 13:07
Right, you want to sacrifice the overall competitiveness of the army for the sake of your favourite special rule


Well you can't really say the book is more competitive as you haven't played any games yet, just like we haven't. And really our favourite special rule was kind of key to the background and playstyle of the army. Imagine Empire without detachments or Orcs without animosity.

I'm not quite sure where people are seeing all these competitive and strong units if I'm honest. Most of it looks like a poor mans DE or HE. In most cases you could get almost the exact same style of play by using HE - take archers and reavers as core, white lions, shadow warriors and dragon princes as special. Then fill rare with sisters of avelorn and eagles. Most of those units are better than their WE counterparts. You lose access to forest spirits but most of them are weak or cannon magnets anyway.

Wood Elves used to be a niche army. I'm all for change, but change for the sake of change isn't necessarily a good thing. Watching your favourite army completely change is kind of a downer.

Felwether
02-05-2014, 13:07
This new book seems to have rebooted the army from the ground up, whereas I myself would have much preferred to have it build on the previous book.

And had that happened, you would currently be drowning in a frothing tide of delicious rage!

Spiney Norman
02-05-2014, 13:32
Well you can't really say the book is more competitive as you haven't played any games yet, just like we haven't. And really our favourite special rule was kind of key to the background and playstyle of the army. Imagine Empire without detachments or Orcs without animosity.

Oh sure, but equally the dissatisfied masses have the same weak basis for their own assessment of the book. If you really liked being able to move and shoot with no penalty REJOICE, you can now move and shoot at a skirmishing unit inside a wood from long range and hit with no penalty if you take the right enchanted arrows. I'm not sure why expecting the worst with no evidence is any more logical than expecting the best with the same lack of evidence other than enabling you to engage in the fashionable pastime of moaning about GW on online forums.

This release followed almost exactly the same pattern as the Lizardmen and dwarf releases, early WD pictures, moaning about not having as many new kits as dark elves, rules leaks, the sky is falling/angsty comments about your favourite army being nerfed into the ground.

Nothing I've read aside from the dryad over-nerf really gives me any cause for concern, and I'm open to the possibility that I might even find a use for them once I've played through a few games, I have 36 of the buggers after all.