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Myrmidon
10-03-2014, 05:03
So, I know that there's no solid gene-seed origin for these gents, but as they're becoming quite popular as of late, I wondered just what theories other Warseer posters had regarding their origin.

So what say you gentlemen?

Fizzy
10-03-2014, 05:14
Extremely aggressive and gladiator stylish.

World Eater remnants that appeared from the warp after the Horus Heresy and saw the current situation and made their own chapter to help the imperium.

I dont have the slightest idea just a shot in the dark.

agurus1
10-03-2014, 05:40
unfortunately Fizzy its been established that, although their geneseed origins are unknown, the Minotaurs were commissioned by the High Lords of Terra. So no "traitor marines appearing out of the warp and becoming a loyalist chapter".

good news is that there is literally nothing keeping the High Lords from having used traitor geneseed in the Minotaurs creation save a stasis field and some ancient techpriests most likely.

however personal favorite theory? Its the one stable chapter created from Space Wolf geneseed. They throw us off with all the greek stuff, but the Wolves were created as the Emperor's executioners. The modern Minotaurs were created in a similar capacity for the High Lords, an unquestioning/obedient Chapter that would go to any lengths out of loyalty.

Fizzy
10-03-2014, 05:45
unfortunately Fizzy its been established that, although their geneseed origins are unknown, the Minotaurs were commissioned by the High Lords of Terra. So no "traitor marines appearing out of the warp and becoming a loyalist chapter".

good news is that there is literally nothing keeping the High Lords from having used traitor geneseed in the Minotaurs creation save a stasis field and some ancient techpriests most likely.

however personal favorite theory? Its the one stable chapter created from Space Wolf geneseed. They throw us off with all the greek stuff, but the Wolves were created as the Emperor's executioners. The modern Minotaurs were created in a similar capacity for the High Lords, an unquestioning/obedient Chapter that would go to any lengths out of loyalty.

As I said I have no idea. It was not a serious answer :) Between the lines. I would not like to know their background. Thats whats appealing about them. It scares even the other loyalists. They are aggressive and they dont know where they come from or what their plan is or if they even have a plan. Their background is a trait that benefits them greatly.

I doubt the space wolves connection as well. Space Wolves are aggressive but still have a way to control themselves. Minotaurs not so much. I mean they can slaughter a bunch of allies just because of a simple misfire.

Langdon
10-03-2014, 05:53
I mean they can slaughter a bunch of allies just because of a simple misfire.


sounds very Dark Angely to me..

"he metioned fallen something"
"kill him and his friends, no-one shall know about the 'Secret'!"

agurus1
10-03-2014, 06:16
As I said I have no idea. It was not a serious answer :) Between the lines. I would not like to know their background. Thats whats appealing about them. It scares even the other loyalists. They are aggressive and they dont know where they come from or what their plan is or if they even have a plan. Their background is a trait that benefits them greatly.

I doubt the space wolves connection as well. Space Wolves are aggressive but still have a way to control themselves. Minotaurs not so much. I mean they can slaughter a bunch of allies just because of a simple misfire.

when did they slaughter allies because of a misfire?

I think that they demonstrate control, remember that ultramarines successor chapter that they all but demolished? the key part is "all but" they are able to restrain themselves, but they will do anything and everything they must to achieve victory. That can be misconstrued as a lack of control.

MajorWesJanson
10-03-2014, 06:17
unfortunately Fizzy its been established that, although their geneseed origins are unknown, the Minotaurs were commissioned by the High Lords of Terra. So no "traitor marines appearing out of the warp and becoming a loyalist chapter".

good news is that there is literally nothing keeping the High Lords from having used traitor geneseed in the Minotaurs creation save a stasis field and some ancient techpriests most likely.

however personal favorite theory? Its the one stable chapter created from Space Wolf geneseed. They throw us off with all the greek stuff, but the Wolves were created as the Emperor's executioners. The modern Minotaurs were created in a similar capacity for the High Lords, an unquestioning/obedient Chapter that would go to any lengths out of loyalty.

Agreed. We know Space Wolves can be created without the Canis Helix, or else there would never have been a legion prior to finding Fenris. The problem seems to be trying to use the Canis Helix line of geneseed that has been influenced by the Fenrisian candidates they use for Space Wolves. If they had some original stock on Mars somewhere, they could possibly make a chapter based on Russ's geneseed that is not a Space Wolf successor.

Nubl0
10-03-2014, 07:39
I doubt they are of space wolf heritage, having space wolf geneseed does not make a marine magically any better at killing other marines. The most likely/boring would be that it's ultramarine seed given that it is regularised as the most stable. I like to entertain the idea that I could actually be a select collection of different geneseeds, no real reason just seems cool.

Odd chapter though, they seem to get the bestest latest tech and can do as they please with absolute authority. Slightly arrogant as well. Asterion is said to regularly ignore/not show up for command meeting and just do his own thing regardless of what his allies are upto, I imagine that would really get a smurfs blood pressure up.

Leftenant Gashrog
10-03-2014, 14:18
unfortunately Fizzy its been established that, although their geneseed origins are unknown, the Minotaurs were commissioned by the High Lords of Terra. So no "traitor marines appearing out of the warp and becoming a loyalist chapter".


There was a chapter called the Minotaurs created during the 21st Founding, however Imperial Scholars question whether the 'current' Minotaurs chapter is the same chapter - they have different MO's and heraldry. The origin of the current Minotaurs is therefor unknown, they ARE an officially sanctioned chapter but so are the Sons of Medusa who were created from a band of Iron Hand exiles. Its not out of the realms of possibility that such a band of 'traitors' COULD become a fully sanctioned chapter.

Kiarr
10-03-2014, 15:03
They are the 21st founding and hence crimeric, their seed does come from wolves and I am fairly certain Iron Hands (from conversations with FW writers at games day) however as they told me if they get a cooler background at some point that may change!

BTJ
10-03-2014, 16:05
They are the 21st founding and hence crimeric, their seed does come from wolves and I am fairly certain Iron Hands (from conversations with FW writers at games day) however as they told me if they get a cooler background at some point that may change!
IIRC the only 21st founding chapter with Chimeric geneseed are the Relictors. The Lamenters are 21st founding, but have pure BA geneseed

All Cing Eye
10-03-2014, 16:08
I've always thought it was World Eaters geneseed. There is nothing inherently wrong with the geneseed it was Angron and the Nails that drove them heresy.

A chapter made from WE geneseed without the nails would be ok. In fact one of the defining characteristics of the WE was their loyalty to their insane Primarch.

Perrin
10-03-2014, 16:55
Things we know about Minotaur's character:

Berserkers
Good at siege-craft
Stable geneseed
Fast creation of marines

I'd go with World Eater geneseed, as they were known as berserkers even before finding Angron and the Nails, and World Eater geneseed has never been described as unstable. Fast creation of marines can be explained away as advanced technology given to them by the High Lords. Being good at siege-craft can be explained as an expertise that can be taught.

Would also fit with them mainly fighting traitor astartes. If they themselves know they are of traitor geneseed then it could cause them to have a need to prove themselves loyal beyond doubt, by becoming anti-marine experts.

Death Guard would also fit with the brutality and aloofness, although it's hard to say whether the character of 30k Legions is from their genetic code or from their Primarchs character and homeworld. Garro for example was a Terran, and doesn't share much with his Barbarus brothers.

Anyone think Asterion Moloc could be a Perpetual? The Minotaurs fluff is great, and it would suck for it all to be laid out and explained, but they could have little hints here and there in different books, like the HH series does with the Missing Primarchs.


EDIT: The Lexicanum entry on Ivanus Enkomi mentions the God-Emperor, does that mean the Minotaurs see the Emperor as a god or is it just wording from the perspective it's written? The source is Imperial Armour Volume Ten, which would be written as if it was from the perspective of an Imperial scribe right?

Death Company
10-03-2014, 17:44
I prefer the idea that they're a dark reflection of what could have been the Ultramarines.

Mark of Calth has several moments where the Ultramarines display some outright cruel/savage behavior towards the Word Bearers in both combat, and during questioning of captives. Then, in Know No Fear, we're introduced to Aeonid Thiel- a real badass Ultramarine who was running theoreticals on the most effective ways to kill fellow Astartes long before the Heresy broke out, and was marked for censure because of it.

Just my own take on it.

Mellow
10-03-2014, 18:15
Definitely World Eater. Perhaps mixed with Ultramarine for discipline.

The only reason the UM's would be brutal to the WB's is because they pretty much ruined a large chunk of their empire and went against everything the swore to uphold.

jareddm3
10-03-2014, 19:28
I actually like the stabalized Space Wolf/Space Wolf mixed with Iron Hands theory.

However, I'm firmly against the World Eaters theory as there are plenty of other savage chapters for people to say that they're World Eaters because of their tactics. The Carcharodons and the Marines Malevolent are both total killing machines, but I wouldn't call either a traitor legion successor.

Perrin
10-03-2014, 21:27
I actually like the stabalized Space Wolf/Space Wolf mixed with Iron Hands theory.

However, I'm firmly against the World Eaters theory as there are plenty of other savage chapters for people to say that they're World Eaters because of their tactics. The Carcharodons and the Marines Malevolent are both total killing machines, but I wouldn't call either a traitor legion successor.

Marines Malevolent aren't berserker killing machines though, they just don't care about human life that much. The only thing I've read about them (apart from their appearance in the Salamander series) is the Armageddon bit, where they cause massive collateral damage to human civilians by Whirlwind bombardment, which isn't exactly World Eater style.

The Carcharodons probably are traitor geneseed, as their whole history smacks of a Traitor Legion company sized force that stayed loyal, but would have caused too much of a fuss if they were allowed to go about their normal duties. Instead they're sent to fight beyond the Imperium's borders so no Loyalists can take offence at their continued existence.

This is from the Carcharodons Lexi page, source is Imperial Armour Ten:

"When resistance proves too heavy or the reaction of the enemy too swift, the Chapter's forces often quickly withdraw, to avoid heavy losses and, more importantly, to strike at another direction. This is repeated again and again until a weakness is eventually found, upon which the full brunt of the assault forces are brought to bear to bring the encounter to a swift end"
Doesn't sound much like the World Eaters/War Hounds. Sounds more like White Scars or Raven Guard I think.

In Battle of the Fang a Wolf Priest gets close to stabilising SW geneseed, so it may be possible, but there is no advantage to it. They'd be vanilla, the Canis Helix is what makes the Wolves who they are.

Slayer-Fan123
10-03-2014, 23:17
Things we know about Minotaur's character:

Berserkers
Good at siege-craft
Stable geneseed
Fast creation of marines

I'd go with World Eater geneseed, as they were known as berserkers even before finding Angron and the Nails, and World Eater geneseed has never been described as unstable. Fast creation of marines can be explained away as advanced technology given to them by the High Lords. Being good at siege-craft can be explained as an expertise that can be taught.

Would also fit with them mainly fighting traitor astartes. If they themselves know they are of traitor geneseed then it could cause them to have a need to prove themselves loyal beyond doubt, by becoming anti-marine experts.

Death Guard would also fit with the brutality and aloofness, although it's hard to say whether the character of 30k Legions is from their genetic code or from their Primarchs character and homeworld. Garro for example was a Terran, and doesn't share much with his Barbarus brothers.

Anyone think Asterion Moloc could be a Perpetual? The Minotaurs fluff is great, and it would suck for it all to be laid out and explained, but they could have little hints here and there in different books, like the HH series does with the Missing Primarchs.


EDIT: The Lexicanum entry on Ivanus Enkomi mentions the God-Emperor, does that mean the Minotaurs see the Emperor as a god or is it just wording from the perspective it's written? The source is Imperial Armour Volume Ten, which would be written as if it was from the perspective of an Imperial scribe right?
I actually never heard the theory of Asterion being a Perpetual. Some of the fluff could suggest it whilst some of it leads to more brainwashing a new guy or even more cybernetics.
I'll just stick with the perpetual theory because that sounds badass.

DarianZG
11-03-2014, 00:29
Given that the 21st founding was known to have 'chimeric' gene seed, it's entirely possible their aggression and psychotic paranoia may not be from a particular legion/chapter specifically and just could be a result of 'hybrid vigor' from the splicing of various sources.


The traits they inherit do not predicate the use of World Eaters or Space Wolves gene seed. It can simply be a byproduct of what the Magos Biologis did that caused the 21st Founding to be so unstable.

Perrin
11-03-2014, 00:47
Given that the 21st founding was known to have 'chimeric' gene seed, it's entirely possible their aggression and psychotic paranoia may not be from a particular legion/chapter specifically and just could be a result of 'hybrid vigor' from the splicing of various sources.


The traits they inherit do not predicate the use of World Eaters or Space Wolves gene seed. It can simply be a byproduct of what the Magos Biologis did that caused the 21st Founding to be so unstable.

That's a pretty good point. The bit about the Minotaurs being able to produce new marines from aspirant to full battle brother remarkably quickly makes me think of Corax and Deliverance Lost...

All Cing Eye
11-03-2014, 01:41
The Carcharodons probably are traitor geneseed, as their whole history smacks of a Traitor Legion company sized force that stayed loyal, but would have caused too much of a fuss if they were allowed to go about their normal duties. Instead they're sent to fight beyond the Imperium's borders so no Loyalists can take offence at their continued existence.

This is from the Carcharodons Lexi page, source is Imperial Armour Ten:

Doesn't sound much like the World Eaters/War Hounds. Sounds more like White Scars or Raven Guard I think.

Carcharodons are all but confirmed to be a Raven Guard successor.

DarianZG
11-03-2014, 01:57
That's a pretty good point. The bit about the Minotaurs being able to produce new marines from aspirant to full battle brother remarkably quickly makes me think of Corax and Deliverance Lost...

Perhaps, but remember the degeneration of their gene seed was from:

The Alpha Legion tampering with the incubation process on Deliverance by introducing "daemon DNA" (my molecular genetics degree is making me cringe)

And we see in Angel Exterminatus that
Fabius Bile is having problems with his Terata due to receiving that tainted genetic material but that's a different topic.

So given that the Minotaurs do not display the same issues as the Raptors do in Deliverance Lost, I doubt it's due to any Raven Guard gene material. As far as rapid development and deployment of new aspirants, it's entirely possible they were given certain access to how the Legions were converted during the Great Crusade which was found to have flaws thus causing the High Lords to reevaluate the induction process.

Or...it could just be another byproduct of chimeric gene seed and not originating from any of the Legions.

Perrin
11-03-2014, 02:08
Perhaps, but remember the degeneration of their gene seed was from:

The Alpha Legion tampering with the incubation process on Deliverance by introducing "daemon DNA" (my molecular genetics degree is making me cringe)

And we see in Angel Exterminatus that
Fabius Bile is having problems with his Terata due to receiving that tainted genetic material but that's a different topic.

So given that the Minotaurs do not display the same issues as the Raptors do in Deliverance Lost, I doubt it's due to any Raven Guard gene material. As far as rapid development and deployment of new aspirants, it's entirely possible they were given certain access to how the Legions were converted during the Great Crusade which was found to have flaws thus causing the High Lords to reevaluate the induction process.

Or...it could just be another byproduct of chimeric gene seed and not originating from any of the Legions.


Yeah that's what I meant,

The Minotaurs being able to make new space marines remarkably quickly is similar to how the Raven Guard created new marines remarkably quickly, before the procedure was tainted with "daemon dna". They were using secrets gained from the Emperor's genetic research laboratory on Terra, which the High Lords in all likelihood have access to, and could have given it to the Minotaurs.

@All Cing Eye Evidence? Like I said in the post you quoted, their fighting style may have similarities to the Raven Guard (although not many now I think of it), but I've seen nothing else. The description of Tyberos slightly matches Raven Guard, but could also be Night Lord. Plus it also says half of the bones in his face are exposed, I'm not sure you can take his description as the norm for the Chapter.

Death Company
11-03-2014, 04:49
Evidence? Like I said in the post you quoted, their fighting style may have similarities to the Raven Guard (although not many now I think of it),

I think they have a fair amount of similarities.


Guerrilla warfare and stealth
Application of overwhelming force where the enemy is weakest
Heavy reliance on scouting elements




but I've seen nothing else. The description of Tyberos slightly matches Raven Guard, but could also be Night Lord. Plus it also says half of the bones in his face are exposed, I'm not sure you can take his description as the norm for the Chapter.

See Imperial Armour Volume Ten - The Badab War - Part Two.


I find it strange that people seem to be convinced that every dark - and brutal - successor has to be from traitor stock. As if the Space Wolves and Blood Angels don't make a good case for savage 'good guys'.

Mage
11-03-2014, 12:59
There is also a chance they are possible Death Guard descendants: pale skin, gaunt face that one is mentioned to have, not to mention hints at DG iconography on Tyberos' armour.

Perrin
11-03-2014, 13:33
I think they have a fair amount of similarities.


Guerrilla warfare and stealth
Application of overwhelming force where the enemy is weakest
Heavy reliance on scouting elements





See Imperial Armour Volume Ten - The Badab War - Part Two.


I find it strange that people seem to be convinced that every dark - and brutal - successor has to be from traitor stock. As if the Space Wolves and Blood Angels don't make a good case for savage 'good guys'.

Mainly because their Primogenitor Chapter/Legion, like the Minotaurs, is hidden. If they were like the Blood Ravens and just didn't remember then that would be fine, but they specifically don't state it. Every other Chapter has pride in it's founding, or if their primogenitor isn't known to us it's because the Chapter hasn't been covered in much detail. Both the Minotaurs and the Carcharadons have been covered in some detail, but their Primarch/Founding Chapter has never been stated, not as a war cry or anything. That isn't absolute evidence obviously, but it does ask question as to Why neither Chapter displays it's founder.

I don't have Imperial Armour Volume Ten, I've been going on stuff from Lexicanum so if there are any bits of fluff that are relevant you'll have to quote them I'm afraid. The only description Lexi has is of the Chapter Master.

As for their fighting style, I haven't seen anything about guerrilla warfare and stealth? Surely guerrilla warfare is something a Chapter is forced into, not a combat doctrine that they employ. The other two points I agree completely with, and they do match the Raven Guard, but they could also match the White Scars strategy of feigned retreats and fast paced strike and retreat.

DuskRaider
11-03-2014, 13:45
Charcarodons have been said to be Raven Guard successors. Minotaurs have been rumored to be World Eaters since their inception.

Formerly Wu
11-03-2014, 19:18
Both the Minotaurs and the Carcharadons have been covered in some detail, but their Primarch/Founding Chapter has never been stated, not as a war cry or anything. That isn't absolute evidence obviously, but it does ask question as to Why neither Chapter displays it's founder.
That's not evidence one way or the other, however, since there are many chapters whose origins have been lost over the millenia.

Perrin
11-03-2014, 22:02
That's not evidence one way or the other, however, since there are many chapters whose origins have been lost over the millenia.

Like? I'm not a fluff-encyclopaedia by any means but the only Chapter I can recall that doesn't know their Primarch is the Blood Ravens. Given who the Minotaurs are working for and the resources they have been given, there is no way they wouldn't be able to find out who their Primarch was, if it was ever in doubt.

Nubl0
11-03-2014, 23:28
They could be similar to the red scorpions, who's geenseed is basically untraceable. Could be a sign that the high lords of terror may have there own mixed/brand new batch of it they is not related to any one primarch?

Swordsman
12-03-2014, 04:59
I find it strange that people seem to be convinced that every dark - and brutal - successor has to be from traitor stock. As if the Space Wolves and Blood Angels don't make a good case for savage 'good guys'.

Seriously. A death company Blood Angel would turn a World Eater into something akin to a finger painting; they shocked bloodletters with their savagery in Fear to Tread.


On topic, I like to think that they're chimeric - a mix of Imperial Fists and Ultramarines.

Formerly Wu
12-03-2014, 05:18
Like? I'm not a fluff-encyclopaedia by any means but the only Chapter I can recall that doesn't know their Primarch is the Blood Ravens. Given who the Minotaurs are working for and the resources they have been given, there is no way they wouldn't be able to find out who their Primarch was, if it was ever in doubt.
Going off a quick Lexicanum skim, I'm seeing the Astral Claws, Exorcists, Death Spectres, Marines Malevolent, and several members of the 21st Cursed Founding.

AndrewGPaul
12-03-2014, 10:16
Also, there's a difference between the Imperium at large not knowing, the Chapter themselves not knowing and those responsible for their creation not knowing.


Charcarodons have been said to be Raven Guard successors. Minotaurs have been rumored to be World Eaters since their inception.

By whom? Is it in-universe speculation, or just fan talk?

Perrin
12-03-2014, 17:34
Going off a quick Lexicanum skim, I'm seeing the Astral Claws, Exorcists, Death Spectres, Marines Malevolent, and several members of the 21st Cursed Founding.

Exorcists - Grey Knights?
Death Spectres - Raven Guard

You're right about the others, but the point I was making was that the Minotaurs are better equipped and have better resources than probably every other Chapter out there, except for maybe some of the 1st Founding ones. Along with being the pet astartes of the High Lords, if they didn't know where their geneseed came from there is no way they wouldn't be able to find out. Even if the only thing dna tests will show is that they aren't descended from any of the 9 Loyalist Primarchs, it still shows something.

Theocracity
12-03-2014, 18:18
Exorcists - Grey Knights?
Death Spectres - Raven Guard

You're right about the others, but the point I was making was that the Minotaurs are better equipped and have better resources than probably every other Chapter out there, except for maybe some of the 1st Founding ones. Along with being the pet astartes of the High Lords, if they didn't know where their geneseed came from there is no way they wouldn't be able to find out. Even if the only thing dna tests will show is that they aren't descended from any of the 9 Loyalist Primarchs, it still shows something.

I'm pretty sure the reason they're well equipped is because of the patronage of the High Lords. And if they were specially commissioned by the High Lords there's plenty of non-sinister reasons for the High Lords to not reveal their geneseed source. Perhaps they didn't want them growing attached to their parent chapter, or felt it might get politically ugly if they were revealed.

Also, is it proven that the Minotaurs don't know their own lineage? Or do we just not know it? It's plausible they know but don't share, or don't know but don't feel the need to ask.

Death Company
12-03-2014, 18:28
I don't have Imperial Armour Volume Ten, I've been going on stuff from Lexicanum so if there are any bits of fluff that are relevant you'll have to quote them I'm afraid. The only description Lexi has is of the Chapter Master.

Wait- so you're questioning everyone's claims regarding their origins, when you've not actually read one of the few sources of information about them?

I'd suggest not taking Lexicanums information as 'fact', given that it often includes fan theories and un-cited fluff.


As for their fighting style, I haven't seen anything about guerrilla warfare and stealth?

Probably because you haven't read the Forgeworld book. The Space Sharks were infamous for appearing from nowhere in the void, brutally assaulting an enemy, and fading from sight before they could respond. Only to follow up the attack with another, but from a different direction entirely- obviously similar to the way a shark attacks. This is just an example of void warfare, but if you like, I can expand on their use of said practices on-ground.


Exorcists - Grey Knights?
Death Spectres - Raven Guard

See, right here is where Lexicanum is getting you in trouble.

The Excorcists have no certain in-universe origin. Only fan speculation, and the in-universe opinions of characters in a short story. This holds true with the Death Spectres as well; the only reason they've been associated with the Raven Guard is due to albinism.


Even if the only thing dna tests will show is that they aren't descended from any of the 9 Loyalist Primarchs, it still shows something.

Depends- there are some successors who have 'mystery' gene-seed that the High Lords are either unable, or simply unwilling to scrutinize, despite possible renegade origins.

The Astral Claws are a good case for it not being as simple as just 'testing' the seed to determine a Primarch. They were loyal, and given control of a huge crusade force and domain, despite nobody in-universe knowing where the hell their geneseed originated.

Perrin
12-03-2014, 19:27
Wait- so you're questioning everyone's claims regarding their origins, when you've not actually read one of the few sources of information about them?

I'd suggest not taking Lexicanums information as 'fact', given that it often includes fan theories and un-cited fluff.



Probably because you haven't read the Forgeworld book. The Space Sharks were infamous for appearing from nowhere in the void, brutally assaulting an enemy, and fading from sight before they could respond. Only to follow up the attack with another, but from a different direction entirely- obviously similar to the way a shark attacks. This is just an example of void warfare, but if you like, I can expand on their use of said practices on-ground.



See, right here is where Lexicanum is getting you in trouble.

The Excorcists have no certain in-universe origin. Only fan speculation, and the in-universe opinions of characters in a short story. This holds true with the Death Spectres as well; the only reason they've been associated with the Raven Guard is due to albinism.



Depends- there are some successors who have 'mystery' gene-seed that the High Lords are either unable, or simply unwilling to scrutinize, despite possible renegade origins.

The Astral Claws are a good case for it not being as simple as just 'testing' the seed to determine a Primarch. They were loyal, and given control of a huge crusade force and domain, despite nobody in-universe knowing where the hell their geneseed originated.

I'm not questioning claims, I merely asked for evidence to support peoples claims. Presenting a theory is fine, hell I've been doing it this whole thread, but stating something as fact but not having anything to back it up is poor form.

Lexicanum isn't wrong most of the time. The Warhammer wiki is, but Lexicanum is fine. If there is a fan theory on a page it is labelled as a fan theory. Also, everything I've quoted from Lexicanum has been sourced.

Go for it, I'd love to hear a description of the Space Sharks on the ground, because I wouldn't agree that what you described is guerrilla warfare. The description of their ground warfare that is on Lexicanum (source ImpArmour 10) is more like the strategies used by the Raven Guard. Which is something I mentioned before, to back up the theory of them being Raven Guard successors, which you must have missed?

Hence the ? next to Grey Knights. Maybe I should have explained further, so I apologise for any confusion, but the question mark was supposed to mean possibly Grey Knights, as they are the closest thing to a founding Chapter that the Exorcists have, and there is no evidence to support any other conclusion.

Death Spectres are Raven Guard successors. You must not have read Deathwatch, but the Death Spectre character in it identifies himself as Raven Guard descent. The whole Chapter identifies Corax as their sire. When the Death Spectre meets a Raven Guard, they greet each other in the traditional Raven Guard successor greeting.

The Astral Claws aren't the High Lords pets. The High Lords without a doubt know where the Minotaurs geneseed came from. It is possible that they won't tell them and have forbidden them to seek it out by other means, or that they have lied to them, or as other posters have theorised maybe they created a new geneseed, or maybe they are chimeric and that's the reason they don't venerate one Primarch over another. But I think it is fair to say that given the resources the Minotaurs have at their disposal, which the Astral Claws don't, they could (and may have) find out where their geneseed is from themselves.

Perrin
12-03-2014, 19:30
I'm pretty sure the reason they're well equipped is because of the patronage of the High Lords. And if they were specially commissioned by the High Lords there's plenty of non-sinister reasons for the High Lords to not reveal their geneseed source. Perhaps they didn't want them growing attached to their parent chapter, or felt it might get politically ugly if they were revealed.

Also, is it proven that the Minotaurs don't know their own lineage? Or do we just not know it? It's plausible they know but don't share, or don't know but don't feel the need to ask.

I think I said that a few posts back. Of course that is entirely possible. If true though, the question is if the Minotaurs do know their lineage, why don't they share it? Every other Space Marine Chapter that knows for sure that they are descended from a specific Primarch venerates him, and often shout battle cries in his name. If the Minotaurs do know their Primarch, it is strange how they don't broadcast it, and how no one else knows it, not even those who have shared battles with them.

My original point was that the Minotaurs have the resources to find out who their gene-sire was, if they don't already know.

Anima
12-03-2014, 19:33
I'd just go with Ultramarine gene-seed. I never liked the idea that you needed special crazy traitor gene-seed to be berserk or to be grim and resolute or to be good at sieges or terror attacks.

Theocracity
12-03-2014, 20:04
I think I said that a few posts back. Of course that is entirely possible. If true though, the question is if the Minotaurs do know their lineage, why don't they share it? Every other Space Marine Chapter that knows for sure that they are descended from a specific Primarch venerates him, and often shout battle cries in his name. If the Minotaurs do know their Primarch, it is strange how they don't broadcast it, and how no one else knows it, not even those who have shared battles with them.

My original point was that the Minotaurs have the resources to find out who their gene-sire was, if they don't already know.

Well, like I said it could be a political thing. If the Minotaurs are often used to fight rival loyalists, the High Lords might not want potential conflicts of interests if they are fighting a chapter with the same primarch. Or if it's Space Wolf geneseed, for instance, you'd have friction from the Dark Angels and anyone else who is suddenly aware that the rules-breaking SW are no longer limited from expanding because of the Canis Helix.

We don't really know in either case, but in both cases the geneseed source could easily be known and not shared by either the High Lords, the Minotaurs, or both.

FlashGordon
12-03-2014, 20:26
Wasnt all the tests to create chapters from traitor gene-seed doomed to fail as it always mutated out of hand(and only in a few cases got away with wierd "survivable" mutations)?

ashc
12-03-2014, 20:29
Possibly. That is all rumours and hearsay. ..

Sent from my GT-I8190N using Tapatalk

Perrin
12-03-2014, 20:33
Well, like I said it could be a political thing. If the Minotaurs are often used to fight rival loyalists, the High Lords might not want potential conflicts of interests if they are fighting a chapter with the same primarch. Or if it's Space Wolf geneseed, for instance, you'd have friction from the Dark Angels and anyone else who is suddenly aware that the rules-breaking SW are no longer limited from expanding because of the Canis Helix.

We don't really know in either case, but in both cases the geneseed source could easily be known and not shared by either the High Lords, the Minotaurs, or both.

Sorry when you first made the political point I don't think it really registered with me :p That is a great idea tbf, hadn't thought of it that way before. That could also make a case for the Minotaurs not knowing their Primarch, because they may be hesitant in having to destroy their "brothers".

Death Company
13-03-2014, 05:34
I'm not questioning claims, I merely asked for evidence to support peoples claims. Presenting a theory is fine, hell I've been doing it this whole thread, but stating something as fact but not having anything to back it up is poor form.

Eye's post wasn't a wild fan theory- IA10 implies the possible connection. I'd suggest that you grab a copy of the relevant works, if you're genuinely as curious about Minotaur and Space Shark origins as you seem to be.


Lexicanum isn't wrong most of the time. The Warhammer wiki is, but Lexicanum is fine. If there is a fan theory on a page it is labelled as a fan theory. Also, everything I've quoted from Lexicanum has been sourced.

Lexicanum has a rather poor reputation on here, courtesy of the Void Dragon and Eldar Solitaire threads of old. The site has a nasty habit of having cited sources that don't actually exist, or are misleading based upon the citing..



Go for it, I'd love to hear a description of the Space Sharks on the ground, because I wouldn't agree that what you described is guerrilla warfare. The description of their ground warfare that is on Lexicanum (source ImpArmour 10) is more like the strategies used by the Raven Guard. Which is something I mentioned before, to back up the theory of them being Raven Guard successors, which you must have missed?

One can only assume you're not totally convinced, given you typed this: "Evidence? Like I said in the post you quoted, their fighting style may have similarities to the Raven Guard (although not many now I think of it), but I've seen nothing else."

First, why act so skeptical about what you already consider to be the most logical answer?

Second, why would you say "I haven't seen any evidence"- when you are all too well aware that you have never even read one of the most relevant pieces of lore about said Chapter? Of course you haven't seen it.


Hence the ? next to Grey Knights.


You're right about the others

You implied he was wrong about those two, one would assume. Question mark or no.


Maybe I should have explained further, so I apologise for any confusion, but the question mark was supposed to mean possibly Grey Knights, as they are the closest thing to a founding Chapter that the Exorcists have, and there is no evidence to support any other conclusion.

There's no such connection. There's as much evidence for them being a 'Grey Knight successor' as there is for them being Ultramarines.


Death Spectres are Raven Guard successors. You must not have read Deathwatch, but the Death Spectre character in it identifies himself as Raven Guard descent. The whole Chapter identifies Corax as their sire. When the Death Spectre meets a Raven Guard, they greet each other in the traditional Raven Guard successor greeting.

That would indeed be a newer development then, yes. I stand corrected.


The Astral Claws aren't the High Lords pets. The High Lords without a doubt know where the Minotaurs geneseed came from.

Based upon what evidence?

Poor form and all that, without cited sources.

Perrin
13-03-2014, 06:20
Eye's post wasn't a wild fan theory- IA10 implies the possible connection. I'd suggest that you grab a copy of the relevant works, if you're genuinely as curious about Minotaur and Space Shark origins as you seem to be.

I don't have the funds to buy every bit of source material that GW produces. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Carcharodons Here is the lexi article, perhaps you could have a quick glance and tell me what part of it is so completely divergent from the source material that only people who own it are allowed to comment on anything it covers?



Lexicanum has a rather poor reputation on here, courtesy of the Void Dragon and Eldar Solitaire threads of old. The site has a nasty habit of having cited sources that don't actually exist, or are misleading based upon the citing..

Okay, so point out what the article has gotten wrong? It should be easy enough, it has even cited the exact page numbers.



One can only assume you're not totally convinced, given you typed this: "Evidence? Like I said in the post you quoted, their fighting style may have similarities to the Raven Guard (although not many now I think of it), but I've seen nothing else."

First, why act so skeptical about what you already consider to be the most logical answer?

Second, why would you say "I haven't seen any evidence"- when you are all too well aware that you have never even read one of the most relevant pieces of lore about said Chapter? Of course you haven't seen it.

Again, I'm very sorry that I don't own every bit of source material the GW has published, but I don't think that should stop people joining in on a conversation? You commented on the Death Spectres, when you clearly haven't read Deathwatch. Surely that's what Lexicanum is for? Especially an article that states the source right down to the page numbers, and that you still haven't pointed out what's wrong about it?

I don't think having similar fighting styles to the Raven Guard makes them the most logical answer. They share no other similarities. The description of their Chapter Master being an albino also mentions that half of his face is bare bone, so I'm not going to take that as the norm for the Chapter. Raven Guard aren't known for brutality, and the Carcharodons have been described as being more like Black Templars in close-combat style, something which I'm reasonably sure has never been said about the Raven Guard. They also lack jump-packs, something that is the image of Raven Guard warfare, and any other Raven Guard customs. As a successor I wouldn't expect them to be a carbon copy, but if the only evidence of the relation is their fighting style then I'd expect them to have some more in common.

What I do think is that there are many factors that could be taken as evidence to support many different theories, Raven Guard among them.




You implied he was wrong about those two, one would assume. Question mark or no.



There's no such connection. There's as much evidence for them being a 'Grey Knight successor' as there is for them being Ultramarines.

Apart from being specialised daemon hunters and similar training (Book of Exorcisms), as much evidence as there is for Carachadons and Raven Guard.



Based upon what evidence?

Poor form and all that, without cited sources.

Ha. All fluff about the Minotaurs so far "heavily implies" that they serve the High Lords. It is unknown whether they are a newly created Chapter specifically made by the HL, or whether they are the same Chapter that was down on it's luck in M38. Either way, it is heavily implied they are the servants of the High Lords. As easy as it is to test geneseed for a source (source: Phalanx by Ben Counter) I think it is highly likely that the High Lords, being the ultimate masters of the Imperium and having literally every resource that mankind has available to them, could test for geneseed source. As geneseed purity testing is the first thing that is done when creating a new Chapter (if these are new Minotaurs) then the High Lords would know. Even if they aren't new Minotaurs, why would the High Lords not have tested the geneseed, at least to ensure that it was pure enough to serve their needs.

But you are right, I should have wrote "It is highly likely that the High Lords know where the Minotaurs geneseed came from", my apologies :)



I think maybe some of what I write has been taken the wrong way. I haven't meant to rub anyone up the wrong way or anything, so if I have then what I have written must have been taken the wrong way. Hell by this point I don't even remember what I've written :p If some people believe Space Sharks are Raven Guard, then fine. Personally, I think that, although there are similarities, there isn't enough evidence to conclusively say that "Space Sharks are Raven Guard" like some posters have. This isn't the Sea of Grass people, you can't just say "It is Known" and expect me to take that as fact :p

Inquisitor Engel
13-03-2014, 17:41
I've always been keen on the idea that Carcharodon Astra are based on Night Lord gene seed, given their all-black eyes (Raven Guard irises turn black, not the whole thing) and rather nasty and brutal tactics...

DuskRaider
13-03-2014, 18:07
Also, there's a difference between the Imperium at large not knowing, the Chapter themselves not knowing and those responsible for their creation not knowing.



By whom? Is it in-universe speculation, or just fan talk?

There's nothing in-universe. There never has been, and something tells me there never will be. It's been rumored since they first came out in that horrible yellow and red scheme though that they were of World Eaters geneseed.

All Cing Eye
13-03-2014, 22:33
@Perrin,

Imperial Armour, Badab War Pt II, which you haven't read so I will share here lists the following for Carcharodons:

Carcharodons geneseed, UNKNOWN, some geneseed indicators point to Raven Guard.

Now one of the theories about this is that they are descended from the Raptors, the successful results of Corax's accelerated growth experiments after Istvaan. The Raptors along with the Weregeld, the failed results, were all supposed to be destroyed but the Raptors were sent away to continue to fight and serve the Emperor. This would explain why they have Raven Guard indicators, but not exactly Raven Guard geneseed.

Perrin
13-03-2014, 23:27
@Perrin,

Imperial Armour, Badab War Pt II, which you haven't read so I will share here lists the following for Carcharodons:

Carcharodons geneseed, UNKNOWN, some geneseed indicators point to Raven Guard.

Now one of the theories about this is that they are descended from the Raptors, the successful results of Corax's accelerated growth experiments after Istvaan. The Raptors along with the Weregeld, the failed results, were all supposed to be destroyed but the Raptors were sent away to continue to fight and serve the Emperor. This would explain why they have Raven Guard indicators, but not exactly Raven Guard geneseed.

Thanks. The Lexi article has that, except for the fan theory. It would be a good explanation, but iirc in Deliverance Lost...

I thought all of the Raptors were executed? I haven't got it to hand so I can't check for sure, but they were definitely mutated beyond that of a normal Space Marine form. Horns, fangs, tails, scales, all that kind of thing. If they weren't killed (honestly cannot remember) I think they would be far too mutated to ever form anything resembling a Space Marine Chapter.

If I've misremembered what I wrote in the spoiler, or the 500 successful ones survived, that would be a really cool origin. Very grimdark, abandoned by their parent Chapter/Primarch for being what they are, still trying to keep to the same lessons they were taught as aspirants, scouts and lighting assaults etc.

Death Company
14-03-2014, 03:36
I don't have the funds to buy every bit of source material that GW produces. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Carcharodons Here is the lexi article, perhaps you could have a quick glance and tell me what part of it is so completely divergent from the source material that only people who own it are allowed to comment on anything it covers?

You possess a gift for the dramatic I see. I never once claimed that "only people who own the Forgeworld books are allowed to comment"; not once. You're making a highly exaggerated stance for yourself, for reasons that I can't quite fathom. I simply pointed out that it's pretty likely that you "haven't seen anything" like what he had mentioned, given that you didn't read one of the few existing fluff tomes for said chapter.


Okay, so point out what the article has gotten wrong? It should be easy enough, it has even cited the exact page numbers.

I didn't say that the article in question was inaccurate- only that the website overall suffers from this. I've not even browsed the relevant page of Lexicanum.


I don't think having similar fighting styles to the Raven Guard makes them the most logical answer. They share no other similarities. The description of their Chapter Master being an albino also mentions that half of his face is bare bone, so I'm not going to take that as the norm for the Chapter.

They could be nothing like their founding Legion, and still be of the same geneseed. I mean, do you genuinely believe that all successors are similar to their foundings? :eyebrows:

What's relevant - and what you keep missing - is that the Forgeworld team are the ones who drop the blatant hint in your face. They literally state the connection.


Apart from being specialised daemon hunters and similar training (Book of Exorcisms), as much evidence as there is for Carachadons and Raven Guard.

Sounds good, aside them the part where the Grey Knights don't have a set 'geneseed', as they were formed by means of sorcery, and still-loyal traitors..

Or that Exorcists aren't psykers- only 'invisible' to daemons and the like.


But you are right, I should have wrote "It is highly likely that the High Lords know where the Minotaurs geneseed came from", my apologies :)

Agreed. :)

Hengist
14-03-2014, 15:09
Exorcists - Grey Knights?
That's stated outright, in the internal monologue of an Exorcist marine, to be the case in one of the Deathwatch shorts.


Death Spectres - Raven Guard
Though it would make sense, the same story dwells on the physiological differences between the team's Raven Guard and Death Spectre members. The former are pallid, the latter are actually albinos with white hair and red eyes, so I'd guess not.

So far as the Minotaurs go, their background in IA10 and Index Astartes very obviously invites the reader to infer their descent from the World Eaters, but that's not the same as a firm statement. That the 13th and/or 21st Foundings employed the stored geneseed of the traitor legions is a very plausible in-universe rumour ("proscribed sources") and fan theory, but equally unconfirmed.

Denny
14-03-2014, 15:43
I've always been keen on the idea that Carcharodon Astra are based on Night Lord gene seed, given their all-black eyes (Raven Guard irises turn black, not the whole thing) and rather nasty and brutal tactics...

I like this idea too. I'd prefer it was never confirmed either way though; the Space Sharks are even more scary when you're left not knowing exactly what they are (I like the heavily mutated Raven Guard theory too).

Regarding the Minotaurs I suspect the World Eaters. It can't be proved and nor should it be, but there are enough nods (everything from tactics to the rather Khorne-esk colour scheme) and its a cool idea that the World Eater geneseed itself was not corrupt and can produce loyal (if hyper-violent) marines.

Perrin
14-03-2014, 15:48
That's stated outright, in the internal monologue of an Exorcist marine, to be the case in one of the Deathwatch shorts.


Though it would make sense, the same story dwells on the physiological differences between the team's Raven Guard and Death Spectre members. The former are pallid, the latter are actually albinos with white hair and red eyes, so I'd guess not.

So far as the Minotaurs go, their background in IA10 and Index Astartes very obviously invites the reader to infer their descent from the World Eaters, but that's not the same as a firm statement. That the 13th and/or 21st Foundings employed the stored geneseed of the traitor legions is a very plausible in-universe rumour ("proscribed sources") and fan theory, but equally unconfirmed.

Confirms that Exorcists have Grey Knight geneseed?

Haven't read that short, but I'm assuming that it is the same team the Deathwatch novel focuses on? I doubt many Deathwatch teams have a Raven Guard, Death Spectre and an Exorcist :p

The novel confirms that the Death Spectres are Raven Guard successors, beyond actually showing a dna test. When greeting each other they use the Raven Guard greetings, praise their shared Primarch etc.

I thought that the Raven Guard are also albino? They share the same flaw with the melanchromic organ as the Death Spectres, resulting in albinism. The Death Spectres have a further flaw that results in baldness as well, and possibly the red eyes but that may be something else.

Hengist
14-03-2014, 19:06
Confirms that Exorcists have Grey Knight geneseed?

Haven't read that short, but I'm assuming that it is the same team the Deathwatch novel focuses on? I doubt many Deathwatch teams have a Raven Guard, Death Spectre and an Exorcist :p
That's them! The Exorcists-Grey Knights bit is in 'Headhunted',in Heroes of the Space Marines.


The novel confirms that the Death Spectres are Raven Guard successors, beyond actually showing a dna test. When greeting each other they use the Raven Guard greetings, praise their shared Primarch etc.

I thought that the Raven Guard are also albino? They share the same flaw with the melanchromic organ as the Death Spectres, resulting in albinism. The Death Spectres have a further flaw that results in baldness as well, and possibly the red eyes but that may be something else.
As I remember it, the Raven Guard are pale-skinned and black-haired, while the Death Spectres are actually albinos, i.e. white hair, red eyes, etc. If this has since been retconned, then I stand corrected.

I actually haven't read the novel; worth treating myself to a copy next time I drop in for a pot of Ryza Rust?

Perrin
14-03-2014, 19:36
That's them! The Exorcists-Grey Knights bit is in 'Headhunted',in Heroes of the Space Marines.


As I remember it, the Raven Guard are pale-skinned and black-haired, while the Death Spectres are actually albinos, i.e. white hair, red eyes, etc. If this has since been retconned, then I stand corrected.

I actually haven't read the novel; worth treating myself to a copy next time I drop in for a pot of Ryza Rust?

If you like the Deathwatch then yes :p I think the short story is probably by the same author (Steve Parker) so if you enjoyed that then you'll probably enjoy Deathwatch as well. It shows the process of a marine becoming a Deathwatch marine and shows a bit how the Deathwatch work. That's the first half of the book, the second half is the team on a mission against Nids. I think the Nids could have been portrayed better, but all in all it's a decent read.

Now that you mention it I'm not entirely sure the Raven Guard are albinos... like you said the black hair and black eyes don't fit.

Dead.Blue.Clown
14-03-2014, 19:42
That's stated outright, in the internal monologue of an Exorcist marine, to be the case in one of the Deathwatch shorts.

So that Space Marine believes, anyway.

Hengist
14-03-2014, 23:10
So that Space Marine believes, anyway.
True enough. In context, however, since it doesn't seem to be a plot point that he's deluded about his chapter's origins, I am inclined to take it for now at face value. You may of course know better...

The Red Wake
15-03-2014, 06:23
You may of course know better...

He always does.

Dead.Blue.Clown
15-03-2014, 07:02
True enough. In context, however, since it doesn't seem to be a plot point that he's deluded about his chapter's origins, I am inclined to take it for now at face value. You may of course know better...

Naw. Pure speculation on my part. It's a cool belief for a Marine to have, but it doesn't really jive with Grey Knight lore, given the rumoured source of their gene-seed, and was from a... looser... period in 40K continuity. I see it as one of those awesome "possible but unlikely" in-universe beliefs.


He always does.

I'm honoured you used one of only three posts, in the span of three whole years, to say that.

Hengist
15-03-2014, 11:08
Naw. Pure speculation on my part. It's a cool belief for a Marine to have, but it doesn't really jive with Grey Knight lore, given the rumoured source of their gene-seed, and was from a... looser... period in 40K continuity. I see it as one of those awesome "possible but unlikely" in-universe beliefs.
I wouldn't have chosen to write it that way either, nor to confirm the Death Spectres as Raven Guard descendants; the point of the 13th/21st founding is that they're mysterious. I would certainly be happier had Christian Dunn vetoed both things, particularly since the the former at least is of no significance to the plot of the story in which it appears.

That said, the Grey Knights have featured in the Exorcists' write-ups since their Index Astartes entry back in 2003-ish, so I'm inclined - unless and until somebody writes a story around the circumstances of the 13th founding, which I'd be delighted to read, by the way - to think that accommodating Grey Knight origins for the Exorcists entails less work to integrate with the rest of the 40k universe as presently written than writing it out.

The Red Wake
15-03-2014, 18:51
I'm honoured you used one of only three posts, in the span of three whole years, to say that.

You're welcome, Aaron.

Really looking forward to Talon; despite being a loyalist.


That said, the Grey Knights have featured in the Exorcists' write-ups since their Index Astartes entry back in 2003-ish, so I'm inclined - unless and until somebody writes a story around the circumstances of the 13th founding, which I'd be delighted to read, by the way - to think that accommodating Grey Knight origins for the Exorcists entails less work to integrate with the rest of the 40k universe as presently written than writing it out.

It doesn't really make much sense though, to be honest.

We have a 'chapter' of Librarians who are composed of various traitor stock and thus don't really have a set 'geneseed' to make use of for a successor; versus a traditional chapter of non-psychic Astartes, whose only real quirk outside the Codex Astartes is being resistant to possession, invisible to daemons, and resistant to psykers.

If anything, they're at opposite ends of the spectrum. One uses the warp to combat the neverborn- the other are almost what you'd consider psychic nulls. Vastly different approaches to combat the same threat. Similar goal, grossly different approaches.

MajorWesJanson
15-03-2014, 19:37
You're welcome, Aaron.

Really looking forward to Talon; despite being a loyalist.



It doesn't really make much sense though, to be honest.

We have a 'chapter' of Librarians who are composed of various traitor stock and thus don't really have a set 'geneseed' to make use of for a successor; versus a traditional chapter of non-psychic Astartes, whose only real quirk outside the Codex Astartes is being resistant to possession, invisible to daemons, and resistant to psykers.

If anything, they're at opposite ends of the spectrum. One uses the warp to combat the neverborn- the other are almost what you'd consider psychic nulls. Vastly different approaches to combat the same threat. Similar goal, grossly different approaches.

While the founding Grandmasters of the GK were from a mix of Legion stock, including traitor legions, the actual geneseed used for the Grey Knights was unique, rumored to be gifted from the Emperor himself. If I was on my normal internet, I'd quote the passage from Codex GK. So they do have distinct geneseed.

So yes, they do have a distinct geneseed, and while GK only use psychic candidates, the base GK geneseed would help aspirants to survive the "possession therapy" the Exorcists go through.

The Red Wake
16-03-2014, 05:09
While the founding Grandmasters of the GK were from a mix of Legion stock, including traitor legions, the actual geneseed used for the Grey Knights was unique, rumored to be gifted from the Emperor himself. If I was on my normal internet, I'd quote the passage from Codex GK. So they do have distinct geneseed.

Well, I'm sorry to hear that the botched-abortion that was the Grey Knight codex successfully tainted them all the way down to the geneseed itself, with that mediocre fluff. Very thorough, Games Workshop.


So yes, they do have a distinct geneseed, and while GK only use psychic candidates, the base GK geneseed would help aspirants to survive the "possession therapy" the Exorcists go through.

Are you saying that the 'mystery seed' that they're implanted with gives them an innate advantage versus daemons from the go?

Then why have the possession trials, and massive influx of recruits on what is essentially 'stand by'? It implies that far more fail than survive.

Hengist
16-03-2014, 09:40
It doesn't really make much sense though, to be honest.

We have a 'chapter' of Librarians who are composed of various traitor stock and thus don't really have a set 'geneseed' to make use of for a successor, versus a traditional chapter of non-psychic Astartes, whose only real quirk outside the Codex Astartes is being resistant to possession, invisible to daemons, and resistant to psykers.
The Grey Knights' aspirants are all psykers, the Exorcists' aren't. Or do the Librarians of other chapters require different geneseed too?

Even if the Grey Knights' geneseed, rather than just their training cadre, turns out as the Heresy novels progress in fact to come from various chapters - which would be a massive retcon, obviously - that doesn't mean they don't have geneseeds, that they aren't harvested and stored in the usual manner, or that they couldn't be used to create another chapter. It would still be quite correct for an Exorcist marine, or a Grey Knight for that matter, 10,000 years later to consider his geneseed 'Grey Knight geneseed', even if it had actually been cultivated from Garro, Loken or whoever.

It only "doesn't make sense" if you're determined to interpret everything in such a manner that it doesn't.


Well, I'm sorry to hear that the botched-abortion that was the Grey Knight codex successfully tainted them all the way down to the geneseed itself, with that mediocre fluff. Very thorough, Games Workshop.
If memory serves, that was actually established back in Slaves to Darkness in 1989; it's been part of the fluff for decades.

I don't particularly like the idea of Grey Knight successors, nor of definitive origins for the Dark Founding chapters, but I'm not going to engage in solipsism either.

Death Company
16-03-2014, 18:43
That's a pretty tenuous connection.

An in-universe opinion, based upon a time that had pretty poor documentation- if any at all.

It's Corax versus Angron all over again.

MajorWesJanson
16-03-2014, 18:59
That's a pretty tenuous connection.

An in-universe opinion, based upon a time that had pretty poor documentation- if any at all.

It's Corax versus Angron all over again.

About the Exorcists? GK have long been involved in their creation, a member of the Exorcists treats it as fact, and there has been no evidence to the contrary so far. So it's not a confirmed fact, but far from a tenuous connection.

Death Company
16-03-2014, 19:20
GK have long been involved in their creation,

The Inquisition has been tied to their origin- not the Grey Knights specifically.

The extent of their involvement that I've seen was Grey Knights being used by an Inquisitor as a back-up, ready to kill the original Exorcists, should they be corrupted during their trial run versus daemons.


a member of the Exorcists treats it as fact,

It's a fallible in-universe opinion.

A Magos believed Ork weaponry only functioned because Orks believed it would.
Dorn believes he could easily best Angron.
The Imperium believes that the Emperor is a god, and actively protects them.

Nobody would make an argument for any of this as being a fact.


and there has been no evidence to the contrary so far.

So that means we should cling to a weak possibility?


So it's not a confirmed fact, but far from a tenuous connection.

We have different stances on what passes for tenuous, clearly.

ryng_sting
16-03-2014, 20:58
The Canis Helix is in any gene-seed taken from Leman Russ. Ergo, every SW has had it.

Perrin
16-03-2014, 21:15
The Canis Helix is in any gene-seed taken from Leman Russ. Ergo, every SW has had it.

It's possible that it can be removed from the gene-seed. A Wolf Priest tries in Battle for the Fang, and almost succeeds when his lab is destroyed.

Inquisitor Engel
17-03-2014, 02:21
It's possible that it can be removed from the gene-seed. A Wolf Priest tries in Battle for the Fang, and almost succeeds when his lab is destroyed.

Moreover, if the Canis Helix/Fenris interaction was REQUIRED to make a Space Wolf, or anything from Space Wolf gene-stock, how does anyone explain the VI Legion existing prior to Russ being found, because it did.

MajorWesJanson
17-03-2014, 16:45
Moreover, if the Canis Helix/Fenris interaction was REQUIRED to make a Space Wolf, or anything from Space Wolf gene-stock, how does anyone explain the VI Legion existing prior to Russ being found, because it did.

Wasn't the Canis Helix part of the process for humans to survive on Fenris? The whole no wolves on fenris gag? And Progenoid glands collect genetic material as they mature, so the geneseed could easily be altered by the helix until the two are considered one and the same by the Space Wolves.

Inquisitor Engel
18-03-2014, 04:38
Wasn't the Canis Helix part of the process for humans to survive on Fenris? The whole no wolves on fenris gag? And Progenoid glands collect genetic material as they mature, so the geneseed could easily be altered by the helix until the two are considered one and the same by the Space Wolves.

I'm on a business trip right now, so I don't have my sources with me, but IIRC the Canis Helix is inserted into aspirants as part of the final phase of physiological augmentation a Fenrisian undergoes to become a Space Wolf.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that no one (probably not even GW) has any idea about Space Wolf gene-seed. ;)

Rufiodies
21-03-2014, 04:56
I've said it and I'll say it again, Iron Warriors. Maybe mixed with something, Ultramarines?
Their paranoid, lash out at their allies, like taking stuff/relics from other chapters (honsou and dudes arm?)
The chapter master even has a labyrinthine huge mobile assault carrier base thing. (who else liked mazes?)
Iron Warriors all the way.

Exorcist
21-03-2014, 06:10
Yea, i agree. After reading angel exterminatus i see that connection crystal clear. The minotaurs were probably created by the high lords of terra using the available genestock of the iron warriors. Before the Heresy they were reliable, hard working and most of all brutally efficient warriors. Some inquisitor might have discovered that their downfall was not due to corruption by the warp but that the IW felt neglected. So, creating a new chapter and actually making them their *favorites* could only work for them. Maybe its a bit far fetched, but were talking about the most powerful people in the galaxy.

Now they have a chapter with the ruthless mindset of the Iron Warriors at their command, sending them against other chapters who might not behave like the high lords like it. That Aesterion Moloc shows signs of being a paranoid psychopath and the warriors are prone to rampages is not that important. Maybe If Moloc becomes a problem they have some kind of security measure to remove him. (Callidus right on his ship or whatever)

Rufiodies
21-03-2014, 07:16
Perturabo was always touched by the warp. He could see the eye of terror from day one, he felt like it was staring at him, following him. Probably pushed him towards the paranoid nut he is/was. So we would have to think that his sons are just as touched as him. I would think that the minotaurs have EXTENSIVE hypnotherapy that renders them insane robots. Maybe they all have stim injectors and pacifier helms and the like to keep them stable during the off hours. or maybe they are just Iron Warriors (just lol) mixed with Space Wolves to make them super loyal and deadly (r) in close combat.

corps
22-03-2014, 01:33
I don't see the link with World Eater. If they ever is a link with a traor legion for me it will be: siege specialist + berzeker = Iron Warrior.

Perrin
22-03-2014, 01:55
I don't see the link with World Eater. If they ever is a link with a traor legion for me it will be: siege specialist + berzeker = Iron Warrior.

You mention the World Eater link that you don't see in your own post :p Though to be fair, the berserker bit is the only link to them. Iron Warriors are a good shout, the description of them being brutal, cold-blooded, merciless fits IW (arguably fits all astartes), but more mention has been given to their effectiveness at close-combat than their siege craft.

Could be either though really, or another faction. Not enough is known atm, and I doubt it's going to be something that is explored by BL in the future. Every background has to have some mystery about it, I wouldn't be surprised if the origin of the Minotaurs is never known.

Merus
24-03-2014, 03:48
Iron Warriors are a solid guess, but it implies that successors are going to be innately similar to their founders, all because the gene-seed influences them to be as such. We know that isn't the case.

There is just as much chance that they're Ultramarines as Iron Warriors- until we get some hints, it's impossible to say.

Perrin
24-03-2014, 04:50
Iron Warriors are a solid guess, but it implies that successors are going to be innately similar to their founders, all because the gene-seed influences them to be as such. We know that isn't the case.

There is just as much chance that they're Ultramarines as Iron Warriors- until we get some hints, it's impossible to say.

I think it's a bit of both really. All marines can be relied on to perform any battlefield speciality, tactic or strategy better than an ordinary human, but the HH series has shown that some Legions were genetically engineered to fulfil a certain task/speciality. As an example, during An Unremembered Empire an Imperial Fist is asked to help an Ultramarine with increasing security protocols and fortifying their stronghold. The Ultramarine in question is the First Chapter Master of the Legion and a renowned warrior/veteran/general etc. Straight away the Imperial Fist points out several factors and ideas for improvement that the Ultramarine missed, lending weight to the idea that some Legions are genetically predisposed to certain roles and through the geneseed so would any Chapters that descend from them.

Another factor is that if the Chapter knows they are descended from a certain Legion they may study any records of them in battle, and any teachings of their Primarch that are still left around, leading to them adopting the original battle strategies of the Legion. Another scenario could be that the Chapter was originally made up of a loyalist company of a traitor Legion that changed their name and appearance for obvious reasons. All of the officers and recruiters of the new Chapter would still retain the strategies they used while they were part of the Legion, and would pass those same tactics onto the new aspirants.

Not saying this is evidence that they're Iron Warriors, just that I think that specialities do have something to do with genetics.

Merus
24-03-2014, 18:48
I think it's a bit of both really. All marines can be relied on to perform any battlefield speciality, tactic or strategy better than an ordinary human, but the HH series has shown that some Legions were genetically engineered to fulfil a certain task/speciality. As an example, during An Unremembered Empire an Imperial Fist is asked to help an Ultramarine with increasing security protocols and fortifying their stronghold. The Ultramarine in question is the First Chapter Master of the Legion and a renowned warrior/veteran/general etc. Straight away the Imperial Fist points out several factors and ideas for improvement that the Ultramarine missed, lending weight to the idea that some Legions are genetically predisposed to certain roles and through the geneseed so would any Chapters that descend from them.

That doesn't point to genetic predisposition any more than it points to it being the Legion's specialty - courtesy of Dorn's interests. Who is to say that if Guilliman had been as obsessed with architecture, that his Legion wouldn't have possessed the very same skills, due to the Legion's focus.

Black Templar's don't show an innate skill at siege-craft, nor do Executioners; both are sons of Dorn. ;)


Another factor is that if the Chapter knows they are descended from a certain Legion they may study any records of them in battle, and any teachings of their Primarch that are still left around, leading to them adopting the original battle strategies of the Legion. Another scenario could be that the Chapter was originally made up of a loyalist company of a traitor Legion that changed their name and appearance for obvious reasons. All of the officers and recruiters of the new Chapter would still retain the strategies they used while they were part of the Legion, and would pass those same tactics onto the new aspirants.

I believe that this is more the case. Nature versus nurture, and all that. It's the direct influence of a founder that makes successors similar- not the geneseed.