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agurus1
14-03-2014, 02:56
So essentially I want to model a pilot for my Knight titan, maybe something for objective games/special scenarios/display. I wanted to make a female pilot, but that got me thinking, ARE there any female pilots, princeps, moderatii, ect...? And any fluff on what they wear? Specifically looking for Knight pilots here but I'll take Titan princeps too! I was thinking either a stormcoat or a body-glove?

Asi the Red
14-03-2014, 03:19
In the 40K graphic novel God Machines, the titan pilots essentially wear standard uniforms.

Princeps Macabee (IIRC) (http://www.google.com/imgres?client=firefox-a&hs=Lbz&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=sb&biw=2560&bih=1276&tbm=isch&tbnid=eONkEf_NcKWSmM%3A&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.warseer.com%2Fforums%2F printthread.php%3Ft%3D335784%26pp%3D20%26page%3D50&docid=MDeLGpWZ_uLRVM&itg=1&imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.warseer.com%2Fforums%2Fatt achment.php%253Fattachmentid%253D178558&w=814&h=1041&ei=TnQiU4z7KKWEyAG3hoHgBQ&zoom=1&ved=0CNwCEIQcMFY&iact=rc&dur=407&page=1&start=0&ndsp=90)

Princeps Hekate (http://www.google.com/imgres?start=90&client=firefox-a&hs=Obz&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=sb&biw=2560&bih=1276&tbm=isch&tbnid=A0MwYhzg7tnAGM%3A&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fbbs.stardestroyer.net%2Fvi ewtopic.php%3Ff%3D4%26t%3D87673%26start%3D0&docid=xiGq0o5nwAUjkM&itg=1&imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2 Fv229%2Fazazal%2FWarlord%252520Stuff%2Fimg026.jpg&w=656&h=378&ei=UXQiU4eeOqaOyAHGwIGoCw&zoom=1&ved=0CDwQhBwwEThk&iact=rc&dur=271&page=2&ndsp=118)

Tygre
14-03-2014, 04:00
I don't recall any as a Princeps, but in Titanicus their was a Famulous (apprentice/adept trainee) that was female.
One of the Freeblade Knights is a female. She was incognito as females were not Knight pilots in the houses involved. It could be different in other Knightly houses however.

agurus1
14-03-2014, 04:05
Hmmm interesting. I wonder if Knight pilots dress any differently? Or more individual? So how about female pilots? Are there any?

Edit:

I don't recall any as a Princeps, but in Titanicus their was a Famulous (apprentice/adept trainee) that was female.
One of the Freeblade Knights is a female. She was incognito as females were not Knight pilots in the houses involved. It could be different in other Knightly houses however.

Ah yes! I forgot that she was a trainee! Interesting! Where did that Freeblade fluff come from the new compendium.

Goldsorter
14-03-2014, 04:20
Spoilers for the new Knights of the Imperium book:





The Freeblade discovered by Roland and co was revealed to be a woman who was fighting to avenge her family that was slain by Hive Fleet Hydra. She suffers greatly while piloting her knight because she lacks the correct neural interfaces, and Roland states that it is taboo, but not unprecedented, for a woman to be a pilot. Women in the Knight Houses play a large role in the internal politics of the houses and in diplomacy in general in addition to producing heirs for the Knights.

agurus1
14-03-2014, 04:25
Great! Thanks a bunch for that Goldsorter! :)

Too bad chaos knight fluff isn't expanded upon, I'd like to know any that might have at one point worked with the Iron Warriors!

The bearded one
14-03-2014, 05:48
One of the pilots of the lead warhound titan of the legio in Betrayer is female.

Lothlanathorian
14-03-2014, 06:11
The Princeps of the Titan in Helsreach is a lady. In a tank. Because she's oooooooooold.

MarcoSkoll
14-03-2014, 11:42
I wanted to make a female pilot, but that got me thinking, ARE there any female pilots, princeps, moderatii, ect...?
I would say "Absolutely".

The fluff for Princeps is that the rarity of minds that are strong enough to survive the link means that, unlike most of their other personnel, the Adeptus Mechanicus has to look beyond its own forge worlds to find enough suitable candidates. It'd be catastrophically illogical to ignore half of the possible recruits under those circumstances.
And the Adeptus Mechanicus don't generally seem the type to get hung up over sex or gender - after all, male and female are both characteristics of the flesh and a weakness either way. It's not logical for one to be more taboo than the other.

It's possible that pressures outside the Mechanicus may make it less likely for suitable females to be discovered, but I can't imagine any solid reasons why the AdMech wouldn't recruit them if found.

With all that in mind, female Princeps shouldn't be any kind of rarity. Less common I don't doubt, but "OMG! That Titan is being driven by a woman!" responses should only possibly come from characters ignorant of the workings of the legions.

Polaria
14-03-2014, 13:15
From what I have read in other sources the Mechanicus is an equal opportunity employer in a very grimdark way. All fleshlings have equal opportunity to have their weaknesses removed ;)

Horus38
14-03-2014, 13:29
Titans employ both genders for pilots, presumably due to the extreme rarity of the individual needed to control a titan.

Knights are male, although there are exceptions as the recent novel reveals. This is however frowned upon by the Houses.

MajorWesJanson
14-03-2014, 14:47
Titans employ both genders for pilots, presumably due to the extreme rarity of the individual needed to control a titan.

Knights are male, although there are exceptions as the recent novel reveals. This is however frowned upon by the Houses.

Houses may not like them, but Freeblades and Knights that have been inducted into the Mechanicum seem like fair game for female pilots. Or perhaps the occasional Knight House from a Matriarchy. Knight Amazons?

=Angel=
14-03-2014, 14:59
Never! Women cannot pilot titans as the estrogen interferes with the control interface!

As mentioned gender in a meaningless distinction to the mechanicus most of the time.
I'd go with a bald girl in a crisp military uniform- the mind plugs need somewhere to go.
If you're set on hair, a topknot or bun might fit neatly under their princeps hat.

That's for admech personnel- a freelance knight might be a cowgirlstyle drifter, a Hanna Solo type outlaw or a Joan of arc style girl knight.
I'd go with steampunk goggles and a mechanic's overalls myself (think gadget from rescue rangers)

agurus1
14-03-2014, 17:33
Thanks for all the info! Yeah, I think a shaved head woman with a military style uniform might work if I plan on building a House around her. If not I might still go the shaved route but with a body-glove type suit. detailing the plugs on a bald head should be interesting.

Wait... do Knights pilots use plugs? Knights have an MIU right?

TheSaylesMan
14-03-2014, 19:57
You should remember that Knights are not explicitly Titans. They have bonds of loyalty and/or fealty to the Ad Mech but they do not organize themselves in the same way. They are explicitly stated as a hidebound, dogmatic, traditional society. As its been stated prior, you can have a female pilot but they are very rare and other Knights would have very strong opinions about that. If you would like to normalize female pilots within your Dynasty/House/whatever the words it is possible with the right ancient legalese! I don't claim to be an expert but I have been playing a lot of Crusader Kings 2 which as far as I can tell is pretty authentic.

So, succession for the Knights themselves are a twist on an Agnatic Primogeniture or maybe an Agnatic Gavelkind. Primogeniture being inheritance laws in which all of a father's holdings are inherited by his oldest living son and a Gavelkind is where holdings are distributed amongst the living children. Agnatic means that only men can inherit. So, you have a house in which a man has in his long life had the misfortune of having only daughters. He's been on juevant drugs all this time and he's had maybe 20 kids or so in his couple hundred years but as luck would have it either all his sons and their children died or in some freak act of chance he really only ever had daughters. He's getting old and he fears that since he has no legitimate heir of his Dynasty he is going to change the law. His vassals are not going to like it and he may or may not have waged a war over it but enforces his edict in which he changed the Agnatic Primogeniture into an Agnatic-Cognatic Primogeniture. That means that if there is no oldest son, the succession goes to his oldest daughter instead. Of course this is still not going to solve his problem of keeping his Dynasty on the throne because his oldest daughter is likely married to some dude now. Average marriages are patrilineal so all of that woman's children would be of the Dynasty of the house of the father. So, either your female pilot has either made her husband the luckiest man in the world or your pilot's father had to either eliminate your pilot's husband and any children by that husband and arrange for her a matrilineal marriage. Or he just started knocking off patrilinealy married daughters and their children (because if the oldest child does die than his children get priority of inheritance rather that his brothers/sisters). I think the most believable scenario involves the Patriarch of the Dynasty's only sons to have been slain in some courtly intrigue in an attempt to get a different dynasty on the throne. The Patriarch retaliates by changing succession laws so that his son's daughters would become valid to inherit. Then he betroths them matrilineally to ensure the Dynasty survives and you have a generation of a Knight House in which quite a few pilots are female.

I hope somebody understood that nonsense besides me.

Chem-Dog
15-03-2014, 19:12
yeah, gender means nothing to the Adeptus Mechanicus as they are about as far removed from normal human behaviour as is possible and even then the Imperium is pretty gender neutral. So go with a female if you like, you're not going to break the universe by doing so.

If you want to address the fact that, generally speaking, the genders have different strengths and weaknesses in different areas of mental aptitude you can easily assume the Adeptus Mechanicus have an app for that, gleefully replacing or augmenting the areas where they believe themselves be lacking up to and including the rite of pure thought, which is little more than a selective lobotomy. Basically, an easily justified handwave.


a freelance knight might be a cowgirlstyle drifter, a Hanna Solo type outlaw or a Joan of arc style girl knight.

I like these suggestions. You could also go for a Tank Girl type character.

<3 Tank Girl.

=Angel=
15-03-2014, 20:13
you can easily assume the Adeptus Mechanicus have an app for that, EMOTIONLESSLY replacing or augmenting the areas where they believe themselves be lacking up to and including the rite of pure thought, which is little more than a selective lobotomy.

Fixed that for you




. You could also go for a Tank Girl type character.

<3 Tank Girl.

+1

OuroborosTriumphant
15-03-2014, 20:31
You should remember that Knights are not explicitly Titans. They have bonds of loyalty and/or fealty to the Ad Mech but they do not organize themselves in the same way. They are explicitly stated as a hidebound, dogmatic, traditional society. As its been stated prior, you can have a female pilot but they are very rare and other Knights would have very strong opinions about that. If you would like to normalize female pilots within your Dynasty/House/whatever the words it is possible with the right ancient legalese! I don't claim to be an expert but I have been playing a lot of Crusader Kings 2 which as far as I can tell is pretty authentic.

According to the Knight Companion, House Taranis organizes itself more like a Titan Legion that the other Knight Houses, so I expect at least one House has an even mix of men and women.

kamedake88
16-03-2014, 00:46
The Princeps of the Titan in Helsreach is a lady. In a tank. Because she's oooooooooold.

As my friend here states the princeps "Crone of Invigilita" is a woman. Her names is Zarha Mancion and not only is she a princeps, she is a Princeps Majoris. This means she is the senior Princeps of a battle group and I would surmise, since she commands a Imperator Class Titan she is also the defacto leader of any battle group she is part of.

When in doubt remember that the Imperium is every type of phobic besides Homophobic and Sexist. I say homophobic because this is a "children's game" setting just like Star Wars is (with all the talk about trade disputes and stilted exposition of the prequels, and notions of sexual identity are improper in this format. I say non sexist because having read every black library novel released and just about every piece of background related to our beloved game there has been a concerted effort since the publishing of the Horus Heresy series to have the authors explicitly include both sexes in the descriptions of setting where proper in their works. I would assume this was a power point bullet point during one of their many yearly meetings at black library some time in 2004.

OuroborosTriumphant
16-03-2014, 02:21
As my friend here states the princeps "Crone of Invigilita" is a woman. Her names is Zarha Mancion and not only is she a princeps, she is a Princeps Majoris. This means she is the senior Princeps of a battle group and I would surmise, since she commands a Imperator Class Titan she is also the defacto leader of any battle group she is part of.

When in doubt remember that the Imperium is every type of phobic besides Homophobic and Sexist. I say homophobic because this is a "children's game" setting just like Star Wars is (with all the talk about trade disputes and stilted exposition of the prequels, and notions of sexual identity are improper in this format. I say non sexist because having read every black library novel released and just about every piece of background related to our beloved game there has been a concerted effort since the publishing of the Horus Heresy series to have the authors explicitly include both sexes in the descriptions of setting where proper in their works. I would assume this was a power point bullet point during one of their many yearly meetings at black library some time in 2004.

Not a lot of evidence of it being racist (that is, discriminating against purestrain humans based on the colour of their skin) either. For the most part, the Imperium's prejudices are fantasy prejudices, rather than mirroring those of the real world.

TheSaylesMan
16-03-2014, 03:59
When in doubt remember that the Imperium is every type of phobic besides Homophobic and Sexist... I say non sexist because having read every black library novel released and just about every piece of background related to our beloved game there has been a concerted effort since the publishing of the Horus Heresy series to have the authors explicitly include both sexes in the descriptions of setting where proper in their works.

I have to interject. While what you have said is all true, there was explicit talk about how the right to pilot a Knight was reserved for the first and second born sons in the Imperial Knights Codex. This one particular book has gone against the grain and has presented us with gender roles. The men are called Nobles while the women are called Consorts. The book states that in these Houses the woman's role is courtly politics. It is also says that their society is rigid and hidebound and that this is a specific side-effect of the mind melding technology in the knights on the human psyche. This is one of the very few GW publications where the gender of the characters really matters. When it comes to Knights you cannot use the typical gender neutral stance the Imperium takes. You also cannot brush it off as it being a big universe and that this is all a matter of opinion when their society consists of around 100 worlds and their psychology is artificially imposed on them by an outside force.

Like I said before, a female Knight pilot is possible. It just will always been viewed in-universe as an unusual thing. Its not a hard rule like "NO FEMALE SPACE MARINES" so there is some wiggle room so long as the correct steps are taken to explain it.

MarcoSkoll
16-03-2014, 15:07
You also cannot brush it off as it being a big universe and that this is all a matter of opinion when their society consists of around 100 worlds and their psychology is artificially imposed on them by an outside force.
That entirely depends on what psychology is being forced on them.

I'd guess the most likely possibility is a chauvinistic psychology, a trumped up opinion of one's self (which vaguely ties into how Titan Princeps can become), as a misogynistic psychology doesn't make sense for a genderless machine to be enforcing.

And in the case that it's a system where only the men are being subjected to a chauvinistic psychology, that could easily have tumbled in on itself in any number of houses.

TheSaylesMan
16-03-2014, 15:40
I'd guess the most likely possibility is a chauvinistic psychology, a trumped up opinion of one's self (which vaguely ties into how Titan Princeps can become), as a misogynistic psychology doesn't make sense for a genderless machine to be enforcing.

The Throne Mechanicum alters certain personality traits to make the pilot more effective and it echos with the exaggerated personalities of the pilots past blended into a single "personality". A new pilot slightly changes the psychology of the Knight itself but is more greatly changed by the Knight. The most important people in a House are the people who pilot Knights. The Nobles who pilot Knights have the status to shape society. The Knights make the Nobles very dogmatic about their culture and unwilling to deviate from the traditions of the past. They raise the next generation of Nobles and then the cycle continues. On a side note I imagine that any woman who hooks up to a Knight is going to come away from it with a gender identity crisis given they are being artificially forced to conform to tens of thousands of years worth of exaggerated male cultural zeitgeist.

AndrewGPaul
17-03-2014, 00:55
That sort of thing is entirely up to the players, I think. If you want to explore those sorts of gender issues via the medium of giant robots, fair enough. Likewise if you want to ignore it because you've got a cool conversion or character idea.

House Taranis would be an example; it's noted in the Companion that their Thrones Mechanicum don't have the same sort of mind-altering properties as everyone else's, so I could see them being gender-neutral if you like. Same goes for other Mechanicus-aligned Houses, and I'm sure you could come up with plenty of justifications for the same thing in Imperial-aligned Houses.

TheSaylesMan
17-03-2014, 02:54
That sort of thing is entirely up to the players, I think. If you want to explore those sorts of gender issues via the medium of giant robots, fair enough. Likewise if you want to ignore it because you've got a cool conversion or character idea.

House Taranis would be an example; it's noted in the Companion that their Thrones Mechanicum don't have the same sort of mind-altering properties as everyone else's, so I could see them being gender-neutral if you like. Same goes for other Mechanicus-aligned Houses, and I'm sure you could come up with plenty of justifications for the same thing in Imperial-aligned Houses.

Entirely true. Freeblades have a pretty good way to justify having a female pilot. Same with my previously mentioned Agnatic-Cognatic succession laws. Knight Houses are all about the laws. I'm not trying to dissuade the OP from his idea. I just feel like its not being acknowledged that female Knight pilots would be incredibly rare. You probably have a greater in-universe chance of seeing a female Champion of Chaos. And not in a cheating Slaaneshi way either.

MarcoSkoll
17-03-2014, 03:27
The Knights make the Nobles very dogmatic about their culture and unwilling to deviate from the traditions of the past.
That logic relies on the past traditions they're conforming to have been androcentric - and that can't be expected to be a constant across the many worlds that house Knight houses (in which respect, even a hundred worlds is a positively vast number when talking about the range of cultures that could exist).


I just feel like its not being acknowledged that female Knight pilots would be incredibly rare. You probably have a greater in-universe chance of seeing a female Champion of Chaos.
True, but statistically uninteresting - people (of any gender) who've given their life over to Chaos can be expected to be considerably more plentiful than the number of Knights (and thus the number of pilots).

Dead.Blue.Clown
17-03-2014, 04:28
... there has been a concerted effort since the publishing of the Horus Heresy series to have the authors explicitly include both sexes in the descriptions of setting where proper in their works. I would assume this was a power point bullet point during one of their many yearly meetings at black library some time in 2004.

Nope. Just different authors with different tastes, or the same authors' writing evolving over time. No editorial mandate.

=Angel=
17-03-2014, 10:54
There's plenty of room for a matriarchy house or a mulan knight pilot in a more traditional house, or some technically inclined chick who salvaged a fallen knight and (due to the male aforementioned male imprint on the knight's miu )considers it her boyfriend.

We're given a general rule, not a hard and fast one like marine biology- 40k is big enough for strong female characters- giant robot edition

Chem-Dog
17-03-2014, 14:09
Fixed that for you

Haha. I think we can allow glee in a Magos removing or replacing an organic element of themselves.


Not a lot of evidence of it being racist (that is, discriminating against purestrain humans based on the colour of their skin) either. For the most part, the Imperium's prejudices are fantasy prejudices, rather than mirroring those of the real world.

"Racism was not a problem on the Discworld, because -- what with trolls and dwarfs and so on -- speciesism was more interesting. Black and white lived in perfect harmony and ganged up on green."

To quote Pratchett.


I'm sure you could come up with plenty of justifications for the same thing in Imperial-aligned Houses.

Way-back-when. In an emergency. Ladies used Knights. Worked better than anyone expected. Better than many of the men had managed. Women can be Knights now. Job done.


There's plenty of room for a matriarchy house or a mulan knight pilot in a more traditional house, or some technically inclined chick who salvaged a fallen knight and (due to the male aforementioned male imprint on the knight's miu )considers it her boyfriend.

Matriarchy is fine, I like the Mulan principal too. The Salvaged Knight takes us right back to Tank Girl.
Not too fond of the boyfriend angle though, strong female characters shouldn't need male for validation or fulfilment and becoming romantically attached to a "male" machine seems a little off, let alone a big potent war machine that she rides and/or must dominate....

Actually gets worse if you take the Mulan one literally and the Knight was her Dad's. :eek:

kamedake88
17-03-2014, 14:19
I have to interject. While what you have said is all true, there was explicit talk about how the right to pilot a Knight was reserved for the first and second born sons in the Imperial Knights Codex. This one particular book has gone against the grain and has presented us with gender roles. The men are called Nobles while the women are called Consorts. The book states that in these Houses the woman's role is courtly politics. It is also says that their society is rigid and hidebound and that this is a specific side-effect of the mind melding technology in the knights on the human psyche. This is one of the very few GW publications where the gender of the characters really matters. When it comes to Knights you cannot use the typical gender neutral stance the Imperium takes. You also cannot brush it off as it being a big universe and that this is all a matter of opinion when their society consists of around 100 worlds and their psychology is artificially imposed on them by an outside force.

Like I said before, a female Knight pilot is possible. It just will always been viewed in-universe as an unusual thing. Its not a hard rule like "NO FEMALE SPACE MARINES" so there is some wiggle room so long as the correct steps are taken to explain it.


Well put indeed. At the time of me typing my previous response I hadn't read the Knight Codex. I had the opportunity to read it last night and I was a bit shocked that GW had the balls to court gender rolls in one of their works. All the better though because this allows for some juicy "Joan of Arc" situations where a player could have a female Knight Pilot do her thing guided by the emperor. Either way it's a game and our little plastic knights have no pilots unless your sister decides to shove her barbie in there during construction.

OuroborosTriumphant
17-03-2014, 14:34
"Racism was not a problem on the Discworld, because -- what with trolls and dwarfs and so on -- speciesism was more interesting. Black and white lived in perfect harmony and ganged up on green."

To quote Pratchett.

Indeed. Who cares about various shades of pale pink to dark brown when that guy over there has a third arm, the bloke beside him can read minds and the guy right at the back looks like he has some Ogryn blood a few generations back?

=Angel=
17-03-2014, 20:33
Eliza Simps-dotter: That's right, a GIRL is piloting a knight!