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View Full Version : Crimson Slaughter suplement, your toughts?



corps
14-03-2014, 15:11
I just read the suplement about them and i must say that i like it much. the background is less meh than the one in the black legion. Surprising for i would have tought that the story of the black legion is much more ancient.

so what i like in it.

-background

- warlords traits and special rules

- relics in particulars the one that give divination to a chaos sorcerer

- stratageme and mission

What i dislike

- no specific rules to separate them from older renegades chapter and legions

- no " you can select one x vehicule from the codex space marines"

- no "when your list say chaos autocanon you instead choose one assault canon from codex space marine. i just don't see why a recent renegades chapter gave up it s assaults canon for a reaper canon....

- no doctrine

all the things that could have been the opportunity to distinguish recent renegades chaos aligned chapter from older renegades and legions.

Voss
14-03-2014, 15:22
I haven't seen it. But those are oddly specific dislikes. Sort of like disliking a new Blood Angels codex for not having Crusader Squads or Grey Hunters. Making the renegades more like standard SM doesn't seem like the best way to create some internal dichotomy to the chaos list.

MajorWesJanson
14-03-2014, 15:23
Glad to hear it is better than Codex: Black Legion.

Did people really expect it to give access to vehicles/wargear from the SM codex?

Minsc
14-03-2014, 15:23
It's more or less Codex CSM +1.

You don't really loose that much:
- I personally couldn't care less VotLW being restricted, I barely use it anyway.
- While I will miss Axe of Blind Fury, the new relics more than make up for it.

On the flipside, you get alot of benefits, some which are even free:
+ Armywide Fear. Either GW has realized how little use Fear has in 40k (unlikely), or they consider VotLW to be such a good rule that CS needs some kind of compensation (more likely...). :rolleyes:
+ Better Possessed which are troops. Granted, possessed will still be a sub-par choice, but you have more options when fielding them now, especially thanks to some of the new relics.
+ Better Chosen, as long as you only take 1 squad.
+ Better relics. Access to ML(3)-Divination alone makes the relic-list better.

I'm not sure about whether the Warlordtraits are better or worse than those in Codex CSM though.

What strikes me as odd though, is that the armywide fear-rule renders Nurgle Icons obsolete/overpriced, and one of the results on the Possessed-table renders Mark of Tzeentch obsolete (not that anyone used Tzeentchian possessed or Nurgle Icons in their units in the first place anyway.)



Did people really expect it to give access to vehicles/wargear from the SM codex?

The OP apparently did, but I haven't heard anyone else mentioning this.

Personally, I've finally found a paintscheme for my regular non-cult CSM-units that doesn't include black and gold.

Harwammer
14-03-2014, 15:40
I voted 'it's still in pre-order so I will wait and see before jumping to any conclusions or being dismissive to people it may appeal to'.

corps
14-03-2014, 15:47
I didn't expecte much as a specific request . much more as a tool to distinguish it from let' say black legion. I expected at least elements to distinguish it. i thought of that because of a earlier topic on this forum on how to separate newly renegades and older one. I remenber that it was sugested that newly convert chapter keep their equipement and doctrine. The sons of vengeance for example would have keep their equipement and ultramarines sucessor chapter doctrines.

the rules in the suplements made me want to play chaos wich the codex and black legion didn't succeed to do. The possessed and relics in particular.

* can't find the specific topics. Maybe it s inside the CSM tactica but looking in 222 p well... Anyway i m sure there was post about how to distinguish old traitor and new.

drbored
14-03-2014, 16:14
Mostly, I'm sad that there wasn't a Daemon Weapon in the list. I mean, between the Codex and two supplements, we have 3 daemon weapons, and one is Khorne-specific? Eh.

But, the other rules look exciting. I'm still on the fence about Possessed and still don't see a point in such an expensive unit. Moving them to Troops wasn't what they needed... they needed a 4 point decrease in cost per model.

But, it's attention for Chaos, which I like. I'll buy the hardback, I'll read through it, I'll make a bunch of lists and playtest some different ideas...

One idea I heard was taking a Slaanesh Sorc with Divination and putting him in a big blob squad of Noise Marines. Get the Slaanesh ability that gives +1 strength to Sonic weapons against a target and then take Prescience. Now you're re-rolling to hit with str 5 ignores-cover sonic blasters and str 9 ap3 ignores cover blastmasters. Yes please.

Scammel
14-03-2014, 16:21
As a Word Bearers player with a heavily mutated Lord, I'm pretty psyched and will probably buy it when funds are at reasonable levels. 40k is still in a bad shape, but this supplement will at least allow me to field an army that is representative of my own models and the backstory I enjoy.

Inquisitor Shego
14-03-2014, 16:29
Glad to hear it is better than Codex: Black Legion.

Did people really expect it to give access to vehicles/wargear from the SM codex?

I expected it to be over-priced and fail to interest me. I predicted correctly, which makes me better at Divination than 6th Ed Ahriman.

EDIT - But not as good as a Crimson Slaughter geezer with the artifact for Divination (which genuinely made me roll my eyes and go "FFS")

Hengist
14-03-2014, 16:35
What i dislike

- no specific rules to separate them from older renegades chapter and legions

- no " you can select one x vehicule from the codex space marines"

- no "when your list say chaos autocanon you instead choose one assault canon from codex space marine. i just don't see why a recent renegades chapter gave up it s assaults canon for a reaper canon....

- no doctrine

all the things that could have been the opportunity to distinguish recent renegades chaos aligned chapter from older renegades and legions.
Whilst I understand your reasoning, fielding post-Heresy kit is the Red Corsairs' schtick, so I wouldn't have expected it.

That's not to say I'm not generally underwhelmed by the Crimson Slaughter codex; I'd far rather GW had published one for the Red Corsairs...

Bugaboo
14-03-2014, 16:37
Part of me thinks the focus on the Renegades for a supplement means the start of a "reverse C:SM" implementation of army variety, as in them releasing a bunch of renegade supplements, and letting you pick whichever makes sense to represent your Legions, if they are more your thing. However, the fact they released a BL supplement before this one means they already kind of sc- Oh wait, it's okay, because one of the C:SM tactics is an exception, as it's second founding. :D Could that mean BL = BT!?

That aside, I can't give thoughts as I don't have it yet, but it seems like it could be interesting so far from a fluff standpoint. More than a paragraph or short story for any Renegade chapter is a good thing, in my eyes.

Harwammer
14-03-2014, 17:41
Talking of codex swapping legions, are Nightlord players gonna hop over to the allegedly fear causing Crimson Slaughter codex?

Mandragola
14-03-2014, 17:45
Well I think the basic thing, of making one of the worst units in 40k troops, is hardly going to change much in the game. I'm glad the fluff is good though.

Scammel
14-03-2014, 17:57
Talking of codex swapping legions, are Nightlord players gonna hop over to the allegedly fear causing Crimson Slaughter codex?

Good point. The main question I guess NL players have to ask is how valuable VotLW is.

Bugaboo
14-03-2014, 18:03
Actually, scratch that previous speculation. The special stuff seems like a mix of both WB and NL themes.

ObiWayneKenobi
14-03-2014, 18:22
I like 'em. I read the novellas featuring them (Dark Vengeance and Crimson Dawn) and they've started to grow on me. As I haven't played 6th edition I can't speak as to the rules, but they seem interesting.

drbored
14-03-2014, 18:28
Good point. The main question I guess NL players have to ask is how valuable VotLW is.

Lots of people don't use it at all. After you start upgrading a bunch of things, it just gets expensive. I'd rather have something that works against all armies (like Plasma Guns) over VotLW.

It's pretty encouraging though. Fear on Raptors and Khorne Berzerkers really gives them a nice boost. Fear on CS Cultists makes me giggle.

Minsc
14-03-2014, 18:35
Lots of people don't use it at all. After you start upgrading a bunch of things, it just gets expensive. I'd rather have something that works against all armies (like Plasma Guns) over VotLW.

It's pretty encouraging though. Fear on Raptors and Khorne Berzerkers really gives them a nice boost. Fear on CS Cultists makes me giggle.

Raptors already had Fear. ;)

Bloodrite
14-03-2014, 19:03
I don't really like it. Focus on a renegade group instead of the legions is pretty good, but the crimson slaughters just don't really have an interesting narrative behind them. The focus on possessed feels more like a cheap and lazy trick to sell more models than a well thought out supplement and the rules just look ridiculous right now.

It looks like this supplement doesn't really fix any of the main issues with the CSM codex and just happens to be another stupid cash grab. Just like the black legion supplement.

I think I'll pass this one.

Surgency
14-03-2014, 19:11
Talking of codex swapping legions, are Nightlord players gonna hop over to the allegedly fear causing Crimson Slaughter codex?

Of course not! Blood Angels is waaaay fluffier

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

NotMyIfurita
14-03-2014, 19:19
I dont mind a lack of C:SM options, since I could always play a Loyalist book to represent recently turned marines. Likewise I would have thought Night Lords players would just use C:BA. They even give you a bit of a Demon Prince stand-in with a counts as Mephiston :P. I do realize how sad it is to have to suggest using the loyalist books for representing the character of our Chaos armies.. I really hope the leak is wrong and we see more character, as well as more options in future supplements. If people want to buy the $50+ books, they should really be making the ones people want.

zendral
14-03-2014, 19:48
I missed what they all get. What are the new wargear and possessed table?

Death Company
14-03-2014, 19:52
Of course not! Blood Angels is waaaay fluffier

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

I thought the 'fluffy' codex as of recently was C:SM as Raven Guard. :shifty:

Slayer-Fan123
14-03-2014, 19:55
Well if everyone has Fear, that means when you pay 15 points per Chaos Space Marine with an extra CCW...they still suck compared to Carcharodons, though I suppose not everyone can be as cool as them.
Aside, if that Fear bonus counts towards Plague Marines, that means that theoretically saved 10 points on something I would never buy anyway, which is kinda neat.

Like zendral, I wanna know more though.

Scribe of Khorne
14-03-2014, 20:43
It's more or less Codex CSM +1.

You don't really loose that much:
- I personally couldn't care less VotLW being restricted, I barely use it anyway.
- While I will miss Axe of Blind Fury, the new relics more than make up for it.

On the flipside, you get alot of benefits, some which are even free:
+ Armywide Fear. Either GW has realized how little use Fear has in 40k (unlikely), or they consider VotLW to be such a good rule that CS needs some kind of compensation (more likely...). :rolleyes:
+ Better Possessed which are troops. Granted, possessed will still be a sub-par choice, but you have more options when fielding them now, especially thanks to some of the new relics.
+ Better Chosen, as long as you only take 1 squad.
+ Better relics. Access to ML(3)-Divination alone makes the relic-list better.

I'm not sure about whether the Warlordtraits are better or worse than those in Codex CSM though.

What strikes me as odd though, is that the armywide fear-rule renders Nurgle Icons obsolete/overpriced, and one of the results on the Possessed-table renders Mark of Tzeentch obsolete (not that anyone used Tzeentchian possessed or Nurgle Icons in their units in the first place anyway.)



The OP apparently did, but I haven't heard anyone else mentioning this.

Personally, I've finally found a paintscheme for my regular non-cult CSM-units that doesn't include black and gold.

Mostly this. I'm still going to run Khorne Daemons/CSM, because I want my Juggerlord, but as a rules set this supplement is a nice enough option for those who would be looking.

Barghest
14-03-2014, 20:55
But not as good as a Crimson Slaughter geezer with the artifact for Divination (which genuinely made me roll my eyes and go "FFS")

It isn't in my nature to argue with someone using one of my favourite villains as their avatar, so I will instead choose to say that this codex will be freaking perfect with my Slaaneshi marines. Divination with Noise Marines? Like it. Initiative 5 Lightning Claw Chosen with Preferred Enemy? Love it.

Everything else is kinda meh but whatevs.

IcedCrow
15-03-2014, 00:53
Picked it up tonight. I like the story and the new missions. Will be useful for campaigning

Gig
15-03-2014, 02:28
The book is really nice, complaining about having fear on everything for free is laughable yeah it isn't an amazing rule but it isn't a negative rule either having it is better than not having it.

Possessed as troops is cool for people who want to make a fun close combat list, you can even upgrade 1 character to be possessed, so Possessed sorcerers, warp smiths, Lords and dark apostles :)

Proffered enemy chosen are also awesome re rolling those 1s of the plasma heavy squad will be nice, we also finally got a 2+ Armour save that doesn't require terminator Armour which to me is a god send, finally my biker lord can shrug off missile launcher hits and other AP3 attacks.

Grndhog89
15-03-2014, 03:40
Anyone feel like this should've been named "Codex: Word Bearers" instead? It has all the characteristics of a Word Bearer army in all but name.

Slayer-Fan123
15-03-2014, 05:38
I went over the rules at BOLS, and I gotta say that, if they're correct, I love it. Not too many Daemon Weapons it looks like, but the bonus wargear that's in there is SO good (IWND Nurgle Lord? YES PLEASE). Can the Divination artifact be taken by Lords too? If so, that's really cool.

Barghest
15-03-2014, 05:43
Anyone feel like this should've been named "Codex: Word Bearers" instead? It has all the characteristics of a Word Bearer army in all but name.

Hmm, I don't feel that way at all. I mean, aside from having Possessed as troops there is literally no other reason to compare the codex to Word Bearers:

1) Fear makes no sense as an army-wide rule when something like Crusader would be more appropriate.
2) Giving one unit Preferred Enemy against everything kind of sucks compared to VotLW, which also gives you +1 Ld. Speaking of which, no VotLW except for cult units? To represent one of the first founding legions?

Bugaboo
15-03-2014, 06:27
Hmm, I don't feel that way at all. I mean, aside from having Possessed as troops there is literally no other reason to compare the codex to Word Bearers:

1) Fear makes no sense as an army-wide rule when something like Crusader would be more appropriate.
2) Giving one unit Preferred Enemy against everything kind of sucks compared to VotLW, which also gives you +1 Ld. Speaking of which, no VotLW except for cult units? To represent one of the first founding legions?

To be fair, least they're sticking to a Chaos codex to excuse their potential codex hopping to something "more fluffy".

And their PE is against everything? I'm... kind of confused over that move, but I guess they must have justified it in the book somehow. Guess I'll wait and see.

RTB01
15-03-2014, 08:10
VotLW gives hatred. Preferred enemy is much better. Hatred only works in combat and on the first round. Preferred enemy works for shooting and combat all the time. It's much. much better

Slayer-Fan123
15-03-2014, 08:39
VotLW gives hatred. Preferred enemy is much better. Hatred only works in combat and on the first round. Preferred enemy works for shooting and combat all the time. It's much. much better
There's also a matter of what the PE refers to. VotLW always gives Hatred: Space Marines. PE is still better either way though, but I'm not gonna pay 10 points for PE: Space Marines for it when I would have purchased VotLW for the LD bonus anyway (and since I don't use regular CSM's, it means I never bought it anyway).

Darnok
15-03-2014, 08:47
Anyone feel like this should've been named "Codex: Word Bearers" instead? It has all the characteristics of a Word Bearer army in all but name.

Not on their own. But take a main detachment from Codex: CSM for the VotLW guys, and ally that to a Possessed-heavy force from the CS supplement. While that would ignore the Daemons aspect of Word Bearers, it is another nice idea in my opinion.

totgeboren
15-03-2014, 10:11
Not on their own. But take a main detachment from Codex: CSM for the VotLW guys, and ally that to a Possessed-heavy force from the CS supplement. While that would ignore the Daemons aspect of Word Bearers, it is another nice idea in my opinion.

On the other hand a DA with the new Relic mace gives all units within 6" Zealot, which makes VotLW pointless anyway (for those units affected at least). I can accept that my WB would become more reliant on their spiritual leaders on the tabletop. Heck, they are often called cowards (and worse) by their brother traitor legions anyway so... So SC main with some Daemon allies could work ok.

The only thing I will miss is probably the Murder Sword of all things. I just think it's so fun when people field Character MCs to just walk up to them and insta-kill them. ^^

RTB01
15-03-2014, 10:55
Slayer its PE everyone so its brill!

Gig
15-03-2014, 11:16
There's also a matter of what the PE refers to. VotLW always gives Hatred: Space Marines. PE is still better either way though, but I'm not gonna pay 10 points for PE: Space Marines for it when I would have purchased VotLW for the LD bonus anyway (and since I don't use regular CSM's, it means I never bought it anyway).You get preferred enemy "everything" which is absolutely amazing with plasma chosen.

Bugaboo
15-03-2014, 11:21
I can't wait to see what they do for a Deathmongers supplement. Actually, given how things have gone with the last two, I can see that making cultists better to represent the mutilated cannon fodder and weapon beasts from fall of Orpheus. It's plain to see these supplments are giving Chaos players what they want piecemeal.

MajorWesJanson
15-03-2014, 19:59
I can't wait to see what they do for a Deathmongers supplement. Actually, given how things have gone with the last two, I can see that making cultists better to represent the mutilated cannon fodder and weapon beasts from fall of Orpheus. It's plain to see these supplments are giving Chaos players what they want piecemeal.

Do we really need to make cultists better, when they often crowd out actual chaos marines in a CSM list? They could use some more options, but I can see that waiting for the next edition and a proper multi-part kit.

Zion
15-03-2014, 20:25
For those who don't have the book I've covered it all here (just so people can see what's in it before they buy): Review: Crimson Slaughter (http://www.talkwargaming.com/2014/03/new-release-codex-supplement-crimson.html).

My small bit of plugging aside I like about 98% of what's in the supplement. It feels well designed with everything (even the one Warlord trait I don't like) really feeling like they properly belong in the book because it all fits the theme very tightly. If this is were Supplements are going in the future I want on that boat so bad it's not funny. This book has almost completely sold me on the faction and I haven't even read it all yet (I actually had to force myself to stop reading the background stuff more than once because I kept getting sidetracked by it all while writing my review).

Slayer-Fan123
15-03-2014, 21:00
For those who don't have the book I've covered it all here (just so people can see what's in it before they buy): Review: Crimson Slaughter (http://www.talkwargaming.com/2014/03/new-release-codex-supplement-crimson.html).

My small bit of plugging aside I like about 98% of what's in the supplement. It feels well designed with everything (even the one Warlord trait I don't like) really feeling like they properly belong in the book because it all fits the theme very tightly. If this is were Supplements are going in the future I want on that boat so bad it's not funny. This book has almost completely sold me on the faction and I haven't even read it all yet (I actually had to force myself to stop reading the background stuff more than once because I kept getting sidetracked by it all while writing my review).
So basically the only thing that I can't do is take Typhus. That sucks, but then again I can just ally with him (of course not being able to ride in allied transports sucks otherwise I'd have some terrible ideas in mind).

I can't be the only one that feels like this is Codex: CSM + 1. The artifacts are overall better (I couldn't care less about the lost Axe and Mace when I can get a IWND Lord and a sorcerer with Divination), and not being able to take VotLW doesn't matter when regular CSM's are outperformed by Cult Marines anyway, and they don't need the LD bonus. The thing I hate is that, if you pay for the Horns, there's a chance that you essentially get a useless Warlord trait (which is the reason I hate the trait moreso than the fact it's fine overall if that makes sense). I also hate that, once again, I like a few of the heroes from the regular Codex.

I actually think GW has been on a roll with these supplements overall (only Sentinels Of Terra is a dud, and even then not really).

Ssilmath
15-03-2014, 21:02
As an aside, Zion, the reason Thousand Sons can't purchase VOTLW is because they come with it by default.

Mike3791
15-03-2014, 21:22
The PE Chosen are nice, but with access to Divination too it isn't even neccessary.

I think people are missing the fact, that now Chaos marines have access to fearless, deep striking scoring units.

Ssilmath
15-03-2014, 21:24
I think people are missing the fact, that now Chaos marines have access to fearless, deep striking scoring units.

Who is that? Possessed don't have Deep Strike, unless I am missing something.

Mike3791
15-03-2014, 21:55
Who is that? Possessed don't have Deep Strike, unless I am missing something.

Sorry I play Daemons and my brain somehow thought that any unit with the "daemon" special rule could deep strike.. my bad. They are still a fast & durable, still good as far as scoring units go.

Bugaboo
15-03-2014, 23:25
Do we really need to make cultists better, when they often crowd out actual chaos marines in a CSM list? They could use some more options, but I can see that waiting for the next edition and a proper multi-part kit.

All round? No. As a fluffy inclusion to a potential Deathmongers supplement? Yes. When I say "better", I don't mean them fearlessly walking across the board chanting Conan's most famous line over and over, but more like something you would expect of things which are the Deathmongers ripping off what they saw in Commoragh. Something as simple as FnP would suffice.

Granted, I will give you that the actual description of the mutilated cannon fodder in the fluff I am referencing sounds very much like what cultists are used for from a gaming standpoint, so even if there was no special rule for them, and they were just modeled to look that way, it wouldn't be all bad.

I apologize for the off topic post, and that's my final thought on the matter, I was just responding to MwJ.

Slayer-Fan123
15-03-2014, 23:44
Just for assurance, you can purchase Cult Marines when you have an appropriately marked Lord right?

Zion
16-03-2014, 01:56
So basically the only thing that I can't do is take Typhus. That sucks, but then again I can just ally with him (of course not being able to ride in allied transports sucks otherwise I'd have some terrible ideas in mind).
I don't recall anything in the Supplement that keeps you from taking Typhus. Did I miss something about codex supplements somewhere that would prevent that?


I can't be the only one that feels like this is Codex: CSM + 1. The artifacts are overall better (I couldn't care less about the lost Axe and Mace when I can get a IWND Lord and a sorcerer with Divination), and not being able to take VotLW doesn't matter when regular CSM's are outperformed by Cult Marines anyway, and they don't need the LD bonus. The thing I hate is that, if you pay for the Horns, there's a chance that you essentially get a useless Warlord trait (which is the reason I hate the trait moreso than the fact it's fine overall if that makes sense). I also hate that, once again, I like a few of the heroes from the regular Codex.
I wouldn't go as far as saying that this one is CSM +1 but it does feel like a real solid book written in a nice, tight and focused manner which probably makes it feel a bit stronger than the CSM codex which deals with things more generally.


I actually think GW has been on a roll with these supplements overall (only Sentinels Of Terra is a dud, and even then not really).
Agreed, the supplements have been pretty decent. This is the first one I've run into that sold me on an army though. I ended up picking up the big CSM box today to start with.


As an aside, Zion, the reason Thousand Sons can't purchase VOTLW is because they come with it by default.
Yup. I'd forgotten about that until someone pointed it out in response to the article last night.


Just for assurance, you can purchase Cult Marines when you have an appropriately marked Lord right?
Yes. There is nothing to prevent that.

Slayer-Fan123
16-03-2014, 02:10
I don't recall anything in the Supplement that keeps you from taking Typhus. Did I miss something about codex supplements somewhere that would prevent that?
Well the two codices are different, so I imagine you cannot take heroes from one of them to put into the other. I also don't own the Black Legion supplement to compare with either.

IcedCrow
16-03-2014, 02:16
The book states you use the same list as in CSM except with different special rules. There is nothing by the rules that would prevent Typhus from for whatever stupid reason be leading around these guys. Much like Abbadon could lead them around or any of the chaos special characters could lead them around or Chapter Masters from one chapter could be present leading around another chapter. For lulz.

Slayer-Fan123
16-03-2014, 05:38
The book states you use the same list as in CSM except with different special rules. There is nothing by the rules that would prevent Typhus from for whatever stupid reason be leading around these guys. Much like Abbadon could lead them around or any of the chaos special characters could lead them around or Chapter Masters from one chapter could be present leading around another chapter. For lulz.
So if I chose to lead a Crimson Slaughter force with Typhus, he keeps his Warlord trait correct?

If so I'm game to try that and eliminate the old codex for the new one.

duffybear1988
16-03-2014, 10:44
So if I chose to lead a Crimson Slaughter force with Typhus, he keeps his Warlord trait correct?

If so I'm game to try that and eliminate the old codex for the new one.

Yes you can do that.

Darnok
16-03-2014, 11:14
That bit of background discussion has been moved to a thread of its own, over HERE (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?391459-Origin-of-the-Crimson-Sables-Slaughter).


Darnok [=I=]