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PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
14-03-2014, 19:03
Here's the full text of the spell:



NET OF AMYNTOK Cast on 10+
The legendary Net of Amyntok was rumoured to have been woven to hold the Great Deceiver itself.
Net of Amyntok is a hex with a range of 24". The target unit must pass a Strength test every time it moves (included moving as a charger, fleeing, pursuing, moving compulsorily, etc.) or shoots or casts spells until the start of the caster's next Magic phase. If the test is passed, the target acts normally. If the test is failed, the unit is unable to perform the desired action, remaining in place and taking D6 Strength 4 hits from the net's barbs of light. The Wizard can choose to extend the range of this spell to 48". If he does so, the casting value is increased to 13+.



So if a unit contains a spellcaster looking to cast spells that turn, when and how often must he perform a strength check to do so? Is he doing it once for each spell he tries to cast? Or is there just one unit-wide test for all spellcasting attempted by models in the unit?

And what happens on a fail? Does a fail mean that you can cast NO more spells? Or does it mean that you can attempt other spells, but just not the ones that a test has been failed on? Also does the test occur before or after dice are used (meaning a failed test is lost dice...).


Here are the rules for casting spells from BRB page 31:



The casting player's Wizards can attempt to cast each of their spells once during each Magic phase, provided they have enough power and don't fail a casting attempt.
Each Wizard can only attempt to cast each spell once per turn. Wizards cannot try to cast spells if they are fleeing or not on the battlefield.
To cast a spell, a Wizard nominates one of his spells to cast, and declares the target of the spell. Before choosing, it's worth examining the rules of the spell to determine its maximum range — remember that you can normally measure to see if a target is in range before you try to cast a spell. Spells also have targeting limitations, as we'll discuss now.

It seems to me that causing your opponent to waste dice isn't the intended effect of the rule (and is a wee bit too powerful as well). It's more the question of timing and frequency of the tests that I'm unsure about. Since the spell refers to the "unit" that is attempting to cast "spell*S*" I'm tempted to say that it's one test for all spellcasters in the unit. A pass means they can all cast spells as normal, while a fail means no spells cast at all.

But then again, the plural could just as easily be a catch-all for all spells that are attempted, and the rules for casting clearly indicate that you can only ATTEMPT each spell once a turn (and a failed strength test would obviously count as an attempt). In that case you'd test once for each spell, and if you fail it's just that one spell that can't be cast.


Thoughts?

TinTip
14-03-2014, 20:26
why is this even a question, it states right there at the begining
"The target unit must pass a Strength test every time it moves (included moving as a charger, fleeing, pursuing, moving compulsorily, etc.) or shoots or casts spells"

It does not say attempt to cast spell, just cast spells.

Micalovits
14-03-2014, 21:09
as tintip said, it is quite clear. it goes:
1: A mage is affected by net wants to cast a spell in his magic phase
2: The mage, or his unit, takes a strength test.
3a: The test is failed, and the wizard cant cast any spells this turn and takes the hits
3b: The test is passed, and the wizard can cast as many spells as he can during the magic phase

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
14-03-2014, 21:11
as tintip said, it is quite clear. it goes:
1: A mage is affected by net wants to cast a spell in his magic phase
2: The mage, or his unit, takes a strength test.
3a: The test is failed, and the wizard cant cast any spells this turn and takes the hits
3b: The test is passed, and the wizard can cast as many spells as he can during the magic phase

You say it's clear, but it appears that you each voted for different options...

TinTip
14-03-2014, 21:19
Except I didn't vote. Many you should stop wasting everyones time with pointless questions that have clearly stated answers and just play the game. It is a game its played for fun

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
14-03-2014, 21:30
Except I didn't vote. Many you should stop wasting everyones time with pointless questions that have clearly stated answers and just play the game. It is a game its played for fun

I asked my gaming group before posting this and their opinions split. I come to this forum and so far the poll is split. It's hardly a "pointless question" to figure out how a core spell works in a lore I'm considering switching to for my primary caster. If you consider it a "waste of time" then feel free to spend your time posting elsewhere.

You also never stated what your opinion WAS, just inferred that I'm an idiot. There's no need for that. If you don't wish to engage in the conversation then nobody is forcing you to, but if you're going to jump in then at least offer something constructive.

TinTip
14-03-2014, 22:09
Thats funny coming from someone who will crwate thread after thread to argue a point that has no basis in the rules just so you can be tfg. All you do is create thread after thread an multiple forums and just troll the rules

ewar
14-03-2014, 22:43
Thats funny coming from someone who will crwate thread after thread to argue a point that has no basis in the rules just so you can be tfg. All you do is create thread after thread an multiple forums and just troll the rules

Aggressive much?

Personally the few times it's come up I've played it as the individual wizards, if more than one in a unit, make the strength test, but thinking about it now I'm not sure that's right. So I don't think it's an unreasonable question to ask.

theunwantedbeing
14-03-2014, 22:50
This shouldn't be a difficult question.

A spell is cast if you beat the casting level using power dice (plus any modifiers).
So that's when the mage affected by the Net of Amyntok would take the strength test.
If failed the mage takes damage and the spell fails regardless of the dice roll (even if irresistible seemingly), the dice will of course be lost.

That's what the spell tells you to do.


That said, the spell should really say "when the affected unit attempts to move/shoot/cast" rather than "when the affected unit moves/shoots/casts" because that would make a lot more sense and wouldn't cause any problems.

Micalovits
15-03-2014, 09:46
That would be like taking the test after say a charge is completed...

After reading it through again, I'll admit it can be understood in two ways, mainly because we can't really say how wide the "cast spells" part is.
Option 1:
At the start of the magic phase, or when he is about to cast his first spell, a wizard affected decides whether or not he wants to cast any spells, and then tests. Failure means no spells can be cast by him this phase, success means he can cast spells freely.

Option 2:
Whenever a wizard attempts to cast a spell, he has to take the test. Success means that specific spell can now be cast, failure means that specific spell can not be cast this magic phase. Whatever the result the wizard has to take further test should he wish to cast other spells.

Personally option 1 makes much more sense to me as:
1: Just as with movement, you can't take a test for charging, and if it fails, then make a march instead, and if that fails try to reform and so on. So the same should go with casting, failure means no casting at all.
2: As the spells says cast SPELLS, not cast a spell. As such it covers the entire phase and you test once and success allows you to cast any spells you can, as else it would have said simply cast a spell and cover each attempt.

It would also make sense with the other phases, fx if you have to different kinds of shooting in a unit you don't test for each of them you only test once.

As for testing after the spells is successfully cast, that is just stupid... to compare to say movement, you don't move your fleeing units, then test for say terrain and panic and THEN take the net test and move them back if it fails...

GrandmasterWang
16-03-2014, 11:09
I agree with micalovits

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SteveW
16-03-2014, 14:14
This shouldn't be a difficult question. Correct


A spell is cast if you beat the casting level using power dice (plus any modifiers). True

So that's when the mage affected by the Net of Amyntok would take the strength test. No, that makes no sense at all.

If failed the mage takes damage and the spell fails regardless of the dice roll (even if irresistible seemingly), the dice will of course be lost. Nothing in the spells rules make a case for this.


That's what the spell tells you to do. Where?



That said, the spell should really say "when the affected unit attempts to move/shoot/cast" rather than "when the affected unit moves/shoots/casts" because that would make a lot more sense and wouldn't cause any problems. So for the moves do you think you declare a charge, roll for it, complete it, test, then move the unit back if they fail the test? Because that's a scenario your version of the spell creates.

bigbiggles
16-03-2014, 15:25
My gut reaction is that it is one test for the whole phase, but I see how it could be a test per spell.
Im almost positive you do the test before using any powerdice. So none will be lost

thesoundofmusica
16-03-2014, 15:39
SteveW
I know it doesnt seem right to first move then roll and have everything go back a step, but the rule does say "every time it moves", "moving as a charger" it doesnt say everytime you want to move. Easiest way for moving is of course to just roll then move instead of seeing the action through, but for spells this is perhaps necessary.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
16-03-2014, 20:30
Thats funny coming from someone who will crwate thread after thread to argue a point that has no basis in the rules just so you can be tfg. All you do is create thread after thread an multiple forums and just troll the rules

Lol.


Personally option 1 makes much more sense to me as:
1: Just as with movement, you can't take a test for charging, and if it fails, then make a march instead, and if that fails try to reform and so on. So the same should go with casting, failure means no casting at all.
2: As the spells says cast SPELLS, not cast a spell. As such it covers the entire phase and you test once and success allows you to cast any spells you can, as else it would have said simply cast a spell and cover each attempt.

It would also make sense with the other phases, fx if you have to different kinds of shooting in a unit you don't test for each of them you only test once.

As for testing after the spells is successfully cast, that is just stupid... to compare to say movement, you don't move your fleeing units, then test for say terrain and panic and THEN take the net test and move them back if it fails...

Thing is that, unlike movement or shooting, each spell casting attempt is its own discrete action. They all activate on their own, can select different targets, and be dispelled individually. So the analogy to movement or shooting doesn't really hold. It all comes down to whether "casts spells" refers to ALL the spells, or just each spell as its cast.

To me the 'technical' reading is that "casts spells" refers to all the spells attempted out of the unit. But the plainest meaning of the words is that it refers to each spell that is cast, and indeed that was my gut reaction to the spell the first time I read it. It's only upon looking at the text more closely that I noticed the ambiguity.

Regarding whether dice are lost, I agree that they're not. Even if you do test after dice are thrown, "the desired action cannot be performed" suggests that the net prevents you from ever taking the action (and therefore throwing dice) at all in the first place. So either way I don't think you lose dice.

Jinxed Mojo
17-03-2014, 11:24
On another note, the spell says that the unit takes a strength test, and if failed take D6 hits. Does this mean that if a bunkered wizard fails the test in the magic phase, does the unit take the hits, and not the wizard himself? And does this mean that the unit can take hits two times in one turn, one time in the movement phase, and one time in the magic phase?
Thanks!


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forseer of fates
17-03-2014, 12:45
This means you use the highest S available, why I don't usually bother with it, as there is generally a higher s hero/lord in the same unit, but not always.

Horus38
17-03-2014, 14:51
On another note, the spell says that the unit takes a strength test, and if failed take D6 hits. Does this mean that if a bunkered wizard fails the test in the magic phase, does the unit take the hits, and not the wizard himself? And does this mean that the unit can take hits two times in one turn, one time in the movement phase, and one time in the magic phase?

The unit will take the hits. And yes the unit could be hit in the movement, magic and shooting phase.

As for the original question: you take one strength test before rolling any casting dice, if passed the wizard can cast spells as normal.

@TinTip: like holy calm down bro!

Tae
17-03-2014, 16:39
Correct

True
No, that makes no sense at all.
Nothing in the spells rules make a case for this.

Where?


So for the moves do you think you declare a charge, roll for it, complete it, test, then move the unit back if they fail the test? Because that's a scenario your version of the spell creates.

The spell states a test is taken when a unit "casts spells".

A spell is only cast once the casting value has been met and any dispel attempt is unsuccessful.

By this reasoning the Net is only triggered at this point, not rolled before any casting dice as it's when the unit casts spells not attempts to cast a spell.

Roshan
17-03-2014, 17:24
The spell states a test is taken when a unit "casts spells".

A spell is only cast once the casting value has been met and any dispel attempt is unsuccessful.

By this reasoning the Net is only triggered at this point, not rolled before any casting dice as it's when the unit casts spells not attempts to cast a spell.

Really...were going to argue at what point attempting to cast a spell becomes "casts a spell"

I mean, by this stage, we have rolled the power dice, picked a spell, rolled, avoided the deamons trying to eat the wizards brains, enemy has failed or decided not to dispel, then we take a str test to see if the spell we already actually cast.....is actually cast at all......I cant decide if this design is so stupid a monkey could have thought of it, or some of the rules writers looked at it and shouted "EUREKA"!

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
17-03-2014, 19:59
Really...were going to argue at what point attempting to cast a spell becomes "casts a spell"

I mean, by this stage, we have rolled the power dice, picked a spell, rolled, avoided the deamons trying to eat the wizards brains, enemy has failed or decided not to dispel, then we take a str test to see if the spell we already actually cast.....is actually cast at all......I cant decide if this design is so stupid a monkey could have thought of it, or some of the rules writers looked at it and shouted "EUREKA"!

This is why I shy away from that interpretation. It just doesn't make sense to roll dice and resolve a spell when the consequence of failing the S test is being "unable to perform the desired action," which to me means you couldn't have rolled dice in the first place. You don't test for DT before rolling the S test, so I feel like you wouldn't roll dice either.


@Jinxed: the test is for the unit, so you use the highest S available and take all hits on the entire unit (distributed as shooting). The only exception is if a character tries to leave a unit under the effect of the spell, in which case as per the FAQ the character tests personally and eats the hits personally on a failure.

Tae
17-03-2014, 22:26
Really...were going to argue at what point attempting to cast a spell becomes "casts a spell"

I mean, by this stage, we have rolled the power dice, picked a spell, rolled, avoided the deamons trying to eat the wizards brains, enemy has failed or decided not to dispel, then we take a str test to see if the spell we already actually cast.....is actually cast at all......I cant decide if this design is so stupid a monkey could have thought of it, or some of the rules writers looked at it and shouted "EUREKA"!

There's no argument, the rules are abundantly clear.

I agree it's stupid, but that doesn't make it any less correct.

Micalovits
18-03-2014, 06:48
It is not clear at all, as the thing you describe would require it to say "a spell has been cast".
Simple Casting spells, is just even trying to do so... Nothing about succeeding or anything, just trying to do so... Not to mention that it can be argued that only one test has to be taken at all... The "test after casting a spell" thing is no where in there.

Tae
18-03-2014, 15:17
It is not clear at all, as the thing you describe would require it to say "a spell has been cast".
Simple Casting spells, is just even trying to do so... Nothing about succeeding or anything, just trying to do so... Not to mention that it can be argued that only one test has to be taken at all... The "test after casting a spell" thing is no where in there.

Leaving aside the test once argument (as I've not read it and can't be bothered), the casts argument is cut and dry.

The spells wording states "casts spells". For a spell to be cast it has to cast it has to be successfully cast (I.e. casting value met and not dispelled).

If these requirements aren't met then the spell hasn't been cast, therefore the unit has not "cast (a) spell".

Hudson Gameover
18-03-2014, 17:57
The spells wording states "casts spells". For a spell to be cast it has to cast it has to be successfully cast (I.e. casting value met and not dispelled).

If these requirements aren't met then the spell hasn't been cast, therefore the unit has not "cast (a) spell".

This.
I cant see it being called any other way.
If a shooting unit shoots but fails its S test then those shots are wasted.
So if a wizard CASTS a spell but fails its S test then those power dice are wasted.

InstantKarma
18-03-2014, 20:53
But the logic of going through all the trouble to cast the spell, do so successfully, not be dispelled, but then fail a S test so it then doesn't go off seems rather absurd.

Same with the issue of declaring a charge. I declare a charge, it is successful, move the unit into base-to-base then fail my S test so I have to move the unit back to exactly where it was before? Because that wouldn't cause a small amount of dispute over where exactly the unit was before it charged.

It would seem to be more efficient to simply take the S test first and save yourself the trouble of failing or not before going through any of those other steps.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
18-03-2014, 23:07
Man, just when I thought I could file this as a "mostly sorted issue," the "One Test to Rule Them All" camp pulls out a comeback and ties things up!

Regarding the loss of dice, I still don't think the wording is strong enough to support it. A failed strength test means that the "desired action cannot be performed," or in other words "the wizard cannot cast the spell." Casting a spell means using dice, ergo failing a strength test means you can't use dice.

Again though, that's just an interpretation, as is the interpretation going the other way. So could we PLEASE stop asserting that one reading or the other is "obvious" and "clear." Right now the poll is showing that the only thing both obvious and clear is that the rule is NOT, and these sorts of assertions contribute nothing to the debate.

Melkmaschine
19-03-2014, 20:39
Again though, that's just an interpretation, as is the interpretation going the other way. So could we PLEASE stop asserting that one reading or the other is "obvious" and "clear." Right now the poll is showing that the only thing both obvious and clear is that the rule is NOT, and these sorts of assertions contribute nothing to the debate.

I strongly agree.
I just wonder how a unit that breaks in cc while being under this spell behaves if it fails its strength test.
Is it immediately overrun because its flee movement equals 0"? Does it fight on?

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
19-03-2014, 21:07
I strongly agree.
I just wonder how a unit that breaks in cc while being under this spell behaves if it fails its strength test.
Is it immediately overrun because its flee movement equals 0"? Does it fight on?

Yeah, I'd say so. The rules for Net specifically say that they apply to fleeing, and "cannot perform the desired action" implies that the unit just can't flee.