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seven324
14-03-2014, 20:07
I've seen a large amount of people say things like "Orks believe it so it's true" and that they have an actual effect on the things around them, as long as there are enough orks and they all believe something - which is why red vehicles go faster. I haven't seen any proof of this anywhere, what's the source for it? All i know of is one quote from the old Ork Codex that is speculation from an Imperial 'scientist'.

The W40K wiki mentions it specifically as "if enough Orks believe something is true, then it will actually become so" but i don't trust the site at all. The Lexicanum also mentions it, but doesn't provide a proper source. It says:


The Waagh! also seems to warp reality to fit Orkish beliefs, allowing their ramshackle technology to function properly. If Orks are convinced that their designs are sound and functional, the Waaagh! makes them so. Other races have found that many Orkish devices simply do not work unless wielded by an Orkoid.

Similarly, it is an article of faith among Orks that explosives become more powerful when they're painted, and that their vehicles go faster when given a Red Paint Job. This may sound nonsensical, but because the Orks believe this to be true, the Waaagh! makes it true.

I don't like the idea myself but people seem to think it actually happens, rather than realistic explanations like red vehicles go faster because they are the ones that are better quality vehicles. Can someone provide a quote for where it's confirmed to happen like that or say where it's from?

Theocracity
14-03-2014, 20:24
You're right to be skeptical because such a quote doesn't exist. 40K wiki and lexicanum have a habit of repeating fan culture as fact and acting like a reverb for it.

It's not inherently wrong to subscribe to the belief that latent Waaagh! power can 'lubricate' Ork technology, but the extent to which that is the case is greatly exaggerated by fan culture. I personally subscribe more to the belief that 'unworkable' Ork tech is made functional by a combination of greenskin physiology and psychology, not magic powers.

MarcoSkoll
14-03-2014, 20:43
In my personal opinion, it's not at all true. However, a game of Chinese Whispers from those who took the fluff at face value is progressively making people think it is true.

The Imperium's understanding of technology is woeful. They believe in things like cleaning and oiling a gun being to appease its machine spirit and stop it getting angry, rather than because it stops the mechanism getting dirty and jamming. (However, in the case of things like Land Raiders and Titans, the ancient cogitators may have some degree of sentience). So, it's easy for the Imperium to reach major misconceptions.

It's perfectly plausible that an Ork, a race that has innate knowledge, might have a better instinct for how to use an Ork made gun (an Ork who shares much of the same racial knowledge) than a human - who believes it's a xenotech abomination that can have no machine spirit because the Omnissiah only serves mankind.
Orks do get to ignore the Unreliable quality of Ork weapons in the FFG RPGs, but the important part there is "of Ork Weapons". They don't suddenly get to use ignore the Unreliable quality of any weapon. In fact, the fluff for battlewagons shows that most non-Ork technology quickly becomes very unreliable in Ork hands.

Personally, I just think Orks have an innate (but not necessarily conscious) sense that if you load dis shoota wif dis moshun, der bulletz will jam less an' you'll get more dakka.

But unfortunately, I suspect that Ork's power of belief will become canonical in time; A daft circumstance that ruins the "read between the lines" subtlety of the earlier fluff.

Lothlanathorian
14-03-2014, 20:44
Anzion's Theory. *taps the clock to reset it*

Basically, an AdMech guy looked at an Ork gun, said, "Man, this thing is junk, no way it works. Orks my have SUPER BRAIN POWERS!!!"

The more rational interpretation (other than they work and that guy was an idiot) is that the nature of the "Waaagh" Ork gestalt makes less functional equipment functional better than one would expect in most circumstances. So, a gun with a 15% chance of blowing up in your face only has a 5-10% of blowing up in your face when made for Orks by Orks (FOBO, LL KEWL Nobz new line of Ork designer reactive armor back plates).

Lord Damocles
14-03-2014, 20:45
If Ork tech actually did work by 'clap your hands if you believe', they wouldn't have a need for ammunition, guns, power fields on space hulks, wheel axels...

That humans can use Ork tech shows that it does actually work.


Dark Heresy (? Black Crusade?) has Ork tech work better when used by Orks, but that could well be because you need the bulk/strength/knowhow of an Ork to operate/'maintain' it effectively.


Lexicanum and the Wiki are incorrect.
If no source is given, don't believe it. If a source is given, it's best to be sceptical and check.


EDIT:

(other than they work and that guy was an idiot)
Anzion also gave explanations for why Ork blood is red, how Oddboys operate, and how Orks spread (likely amongst others) which seem reasonably accurate/sensible.

He appears to be reasonably well regarded in-universe ('...a debt is owed to the eminent Genitor-Major Lukas Anzion whose work in this field - despite his tendency to name every discovery after himself - has enabled our studies Nos sto in umerous giganticus' - Genetor-Major Gray Tealtis in Xenology) so we shouldn't judge him too harshly.

seven324
14-03-2014, 22:18
Anzion's Theory. *taps the clock to reset it*

Basically, an AdMech guy looked at an Ork gun, said, "Man, this thing is junk, no way it works. Orks my have SUPER BRAIN POWERS!!!"

The more rational interpretation (other than they work and that guy was an idiot) is that the nature of the "Waaagh" Ork gestalt makes less functional equipment functional better than one would expect in most circumstances. So, a gun with a 15% chance of blowing up in your face only has a 5-10% of blowing up in your face when made for Orks by Orks (FOBO, LL KEWL Nobz new line of Ork designer reactive armor back plates).

Is the "Waaagh" field thing something that's confirmed as well, or just a theory?


If Ork tech actually did work by 'clap your hands if you believe', they wouldn't have a need for ammunition, guns, power fields on space hulks, wheel axels...

That humans can use Ork tech shows that it does actually work.


Dark Heresy (? Black Crusade?) has Ork tech work better when used by Orks, but that could well be because you need the bulk/strength/knowhow of an Ork to operate/'maintain' it effectively.


Lexicanum and the Wiki are incorrect.
If no source is given, don't believe it. If a source is given, it's best to be sceptical and check.


EDIT:

Anzion also gave explanations for why Ork blood is red, how Oddboys operate, and how Orks spread (likely amongst others) which seem reasonably accurate/sensible.

He appears to be reasonably well regarded in-universe ('...a debt is owed to the eminent Genitor-Major Lukas Anzion whose work in this field - despite his tendency to name every discovery after himself - has enabled our studies Nos sto in umerous giganticus' - Genetor-Major Gray Tealtis in Xenology) so we shouldn't judge him too harshly.

The thing about Ork weapons working better when being held by orks is another thing i've seen used as justification for the whole "Orks believe it so it's true" thing. The wiki gives an example of a Techmarine who opened a ork gun and found it was full of nuts and bolts, I've always assumed that was completely false, anyone know if there's any truth to it? Obviously it's not proof of anything, but i'd still like to know if that is something they've just completely made up.

I don't even see how Anzion could even test the thing about vehicles going faster, as it relies on the presence of orks nearby. It wouldn't work with captured vehicles as there would be no Orks nearby to make them faster and he doesn't seem like the sort of person who would be on a battlefield in the first place.

Lothlanathorian
15-03-2014, 03:42
The Waaagh used to have an in-game effect on weirdboyz. I can't remember how it worked, but, it had something to do with the number of Orks affecting how effective Ork psykers were and, sometimes, make their (or every Ork around them's) head pop.

WLBjork
15-03-2014, 07:43
Yeah. Several versions of it.

You got points for Ork units over a certain size, in close combat and so on.

In 2nd ed, the 'eadbang table was there to see if the Weirdboy could control this power, and was pretty messy if he couldn't!

The bearded one
15-03-2014, 07:54
Aren't there one or two lines somewhere about ork weaponry that fired when used by an ork, but didn't work at all when a human tried firing it?

Nkari
15-03-2014, 08:28
Think there where in the gorkamorka books, but as I dont have them at my fingertips, I cant say for sure, was some admech/inq adept writing a treaty on ork stuff in there.. but it may just be wierd wortd of mouth thingie, so dont take my word for it, look it up.. =)

MarcoSkoll
15-03-2014, 13:47
Aren't there one or two lines somewhere about ork weaponry that fired when used by an ork, but didn't work at all when a human tried firing it?
It's part of the same page in the 3rd Ed codex.

But think it through. A lot of captured equipment is likely to be the least reliable (or ill maintained) equipment - and then take this poor quality equipment and replace a creature that that has innate knowledge of how to use and operate Ork equipment with a muppet who believes machines have to be appeased with unguents, burning incense and prayer... that doesn't need a supernatural explanation for why captured Ork tech doesn't work well in Imperial hands.

Actually, on the basis of the evidence, you could as well argue that it's actually humans that have the power of belief and the weapons stop working because they believe they shouldn't. :p

Idaan
15-03-2014, 13:54
^Also the Armageddon Ork Hunters use captured Ork gear.

Lord Squidar
15-03-2014, 15:18
You are trusting the word of a cult of priests that pretend to be engineers? They have to anoint the holy gears with sacred oil before canting the 17 verses of the machine god before pushing the on button on their tanks. Humans in the 41st millenium know nothing!

Why does Ork technology have to be psychic to work? They are just using fossil fuels and solid slug shots for their equipment, its dangerous and bespoke to each ork, so doesn't lend well to the ideals of the imperium (standardisation and interchangeablility in weaponry and vehicals). Probably the only thing that is not viable in real life terms are the dakka jets, but they dont need psychic belief to keep themselves in the air, just read deff skwadron, they aren't expecting them to come back anyways, so think like an ork where battle is fun and life is cheap and you will imagine their stuff being just great as is.

gitburna
15-03-2014, 18:36
Ork guns that don't work.

Does the example even say what type of gun it is? Are we talking about a mechanism so seized up with rust that it would take an orks brute strength to pull the trigger?
How about a piece of tech thats broken in battle (or used by an ork as a club once it stopped firing) and been discarded as a result?
Or how about an energy weapon like the shokk attak gun or a megablasta that doesn't seem to work through any technical process known to the mechanicum? Remember that according to the first necron codex, necron equipment just shouldn't work either.

Telemachus
15-03-2014, 18:51
... I theorise that many Ork inventions work because the Orks themselves think that they should work. The strong telekenetic abilities of the Orks subconcious somehow ensure that the machinery or weaponry functions as desired. As astounding as it may be, we cannot make any other conclusion based on the evidence to hand. Genetor Lukas Anzon.

Ork codex 3rd edition.

Retrospectus
15-03-2014, 20:43
In the current codex there's a box-out that mentions opening up functioning shootas to find that inside was just loose bullets and gun parts. have to scrounge up the codex to find it now...

I don't like the idea of orks making anything work through belief, I always read it as making equipment that shouldn't work work. like a gun with a receiver seized up with rust or a trukk engine without spark plugs (or orky equivelant)

Fizzy
15-03-2014, 20:52
Problem here is that you try to apply realism, science and logic to 40K.

A lot try but it really doesn't work :)

quantumcollider
15-03-2014, 21:06
I prefer to think that Ork tech works fine, if you use it just right. Like applying pressure on an essential loose part, having a Grot use its finger to plug the correct leak, or slam a jamming shoota the correct way against an appropriate rock.

Ork Mekboys can build functional machines thanks to the information in their genetics. They may not consciously know why a machine works, but they can instinctively build a device that does what they want and obeys the physical laws. And a regular Ork boy can make use of it due to the Orks' latent psychic capabilities to 'know' how to use a mekboy's device without actually learning to use it. The boy doesn't even realise he somehow gained knowledge he didn't have before. It is well-known a psyker can 'feel' information about an object using his talents. Orks probably do the same, albeit unconsciously. Even moreso if a Waagh! is underway.

If a mekboy paints a vehicle red, it doesn't go faster because he believes i should, but the symbolism allows him to tap just a bit more into his genetic knowledge, allowing him to push the limits of the engines a bit further without blowing himself up. And the red colour allows another boy to tap into his psychic Waagh! talents, letting him unconsciously know what the creating mekboy knew on getting the most out of the engine.

bittick
15-03-2014, 22:41
Red ones go faster because you don't paint a vehicle red unless it's supposed to go fast.

aim
17-03-2014, 11:39
There are a few quotes that imply this, but they are sufficiently vague/in universe enough that the Chris Nolans of the internet can veto any hint of quirky or fun from the background if they wish. Thus everyone is happy and the world keeps spinning. God forbid they put it in irrefutable plain black and white that its a fact (like they did in the latest Tau codex with the ethereal mind control statement), or there would be so many toys simultaneously thrown from prams that they could cause some sort of proverbial stuffed-animal avalanche.

Grocklock
17-03-2014, 13:42
The way I have always read the fluff of the orks is though the imperium eyes. They arn't going to shine a faverable light on them.

Like a dictatorship lead by a religious cult, what better way to discribe the foes as unorganised beasts who cannot build anything correctly. That way she. The orks go to war they can wave it off to the citizens.

MarcoSkoll
17-03-2014, 14:07
There are a few quotes that imply this, but they are sufficiently vague/in universe enough that the Chris Nolans of the internet can veto any hint of quirky or fun from the background if they wish.
Oh please. This isn't vetoing quirky or fun. I like the 40k universe to not take itself seriously, have its tongue firmly planted in cheek, ask the audience to read between the lines and throw out plenty of ironic black humour.

My Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader group actively maintains "The list of things" which basically a list of us not taking the setting at all seriously - canonical to our adventures are:
- Stealing a copy of Two score and ten Hues of Umber to hide in our psyker's luggage
- The Adeptus Defenestratus
- A spaceship with a "Master of Ferrets" (originally a slip of the tongue for "Etherics", but it immediately turned into a grand title for the ship's chief rat catcher)
- Another ship with a servitor orchestra that plays music to match whatever's happening - imagine a film soundtrack that's actually audible to the characters.
- "The Adepts" - NPCs we were rescuing, but some of us started roleplaying them (in the background, using our Skype session's text window) panicking in the most boring and analytical way possible.

And the Adeptus Biologicum having its head screwed on backwards (not literally, although that could be a possibility for some members of the Mechanicus) is a far more wonderful part of the brand of humour we like than making the Orks into magical fairies.

Theocracity
17-03-2014, 14:28
There are a few quotes that imply this, but they are sufficiently vague/in universe enough that the Chris Nolans of the internet can veto any hint of quirky or fun from the background if they wish. Thus everyone is happy and the world keeps spinning. God forbid they put it in irrefutable plain black and white that its a fact (like they did in the latest Tau codex with the ethereal mind control statement), or there would be so many toys simultaneously thrown from prams that they could cause some sort of proverbial stuffed-animal avalanche.

To me, it's more fun to imagine that the Imperium is so hidebound that it literally cannot imagine how Ork technology functions correctly without resorting to magic explanations. But then I'm partial to satire. I think it would be a shame if they spelled it out in black and white mostly because it would lose that particular angle.

It's fine to use Anzion's theory as a way to lampshade particularly egregious Rube Goldbergian Ork devices. But as a general rule for how Orks function it's just not necessary.


Oh please. This isn't vetoing quirky or fun. I like the 40k universe to not take itself seriously, have its tongue firmly planted in cheek, ask the audience to read between the lines and throw out plenty of ironic black humour.

Yup, this.


My Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader group actively maintains "The list of things" which basically a list of us not taking the setting at all seriously - canonical to our adventures are:
- Stealing a copy of Two score and ten Hues of Umber to hide in our psyker's luggage
- The Adeptus Defenestratus
- A spaceship with a "Master of Ferrets" (originally a slip of the tongue for "Etherics", but it immediately turned into a grand title for the ship's chief rat catcher)
- Another ship with a servitor orchestra that plays music to match whatever's happening - imagine a film soundtrack that's actually audible to the characters.
- "The Adepts" - NPCs we were rescuing, but some of us started roleplaying them (in the background, using our Skype session's text window) panicking in the most boring and analytical way possible.

And the Adeptus Biologicum having its head screwed on backwards (not literally, although that could be a possibility for some members of the Mechanicus) is a far more wonderful part of the brand of humour we like than making the Orks into magical fairies.

I like your group :D.

MarcoSkoll
17-03-2014, 17:08
I like your group.
Oh, it's much more fun than playing everything as "In the grim darkness of the grimdark future, there is only dark grimness". We're all veterans of earlier versions of the WH40K setting, and prefer the way the fluff used to be a subtle joke as compared to a borderline laughing stock.

And so our plots sometimes involve commissioning ridiculously expensive dresses, teenage biomancer trainees who have to be kept out of each others' dorm rooms and visiting spaceships where the macrocannon crews are expected to time their firing to match with the 1812 Overture.

Crazy Ivan
18-03-2014, 12:02
... I theorise that many Ork inventions work because the Orks themselves think that they should work. The strong telekenetic abilities of the Orks subconcious somehow ensure that the machinery or weaponry functions as desired. As astounding as it may be, we cannot make any other conclusion based on the evidence to hand. Genetor Lukas Anzon.
Ork codex 3rd edition.
Far from Anzion being an idot, this quote shows him to be a fairly capable scientist, at least as far as a member of the Mechanicus can be without being a heretic. He takes the available information (1. Orks are strongly telekinetic; 2. Retrieved Ork tech tends to be very ramshackle and unreliable; 3. Orks are putting said tech to use very succesfully anyway) and reaches a plausible conclusion without taking too many steps (Occam rejoices). He also leaves room for a different conclusion should other information become available ("we cannot make any other conclusion based on the evidence to hand"), like a good scientist should. Note that Anzion probably does not know that Ork technology is genetically hardwired - at least, I do not see how he could know.

Polaria
18-03-2014, 13:27
Oh, it's much more fun than playing everything as "In the grim darkness of the grimdark future, there is only dark grimness". We're all veterans of earlier versions of the WH40K setting, and prefer the way the fluff used to be a subtle joke as compared to a borderline laughing stock.

And so our plots sometimes involve commissioning ridiculously expensive dresses, teenage biomancer trainees who have to be kept out of each others' dorm rooms and visiting spaceships where the macrocannon crews are expected to time their firing to match with the 1812 Overture.

The only question I have is exactly what does Adeptus Defenestratus do? Besides the obvious, I mean.

MarcoSkoll
18-03-2014, 14:33
They're a body that was formed for the task of throwing people out of windows, because many rebellions failed to properly conform to Imperial Code 14223.b/p+121 when they deposed their planetary governors. And ever since, a surprisingly large number of the Imperial officials that get ejected from windows have been done so by robed figures that have turned up just in time to take over the task.

FlashGordon
18-03-2014, 18:04
Far from Anzion being an idot, this quote shows him to be a fairly capable scientist, at least as far as a member of the Mechanicus can be without being a heretic. He takes the available information (1. Orks are strongly telekinetic; 2. Retrieved Ork tech tends to be very ramshackle and unreliable; 3. Orks are putting said tech to use very succesfully anyway) and reaches a plausible conclusion without taking too many steps (Occam rejoices). He also leaves room for a different conclusion should other information become available ("we cannot make any other conclusion based on the evidence to hand"), like a good scientist should. Note that Anzion probably does not know that Ork technology is genetically hardwired - at least, I do not see how he could know.

I would like to know where he got the idea that orks are telekinetic. He is a bad scientist by our standards. 1.Orks use tech succesfully(unknown reasons) 2. retrieved tech is unreliable(unknown reasons) 3. Orks must be using telekinesis(because reasons) to be able to use tech.

Crazy Ivan
18-03-2014, 18:47
I would like to know where he got the idea that orks are telekinetic. He is a bad scientist by our standards. 1.Orks use tech succesfully(unknown reasons) 2. retrieved tech is unreliable(unknown reasons) 3. Orks must be using telekinesis(because reasons) to be able to use tech.
The psychic ability of Orks could've been fairly easily established due to their encounter with Imperial Psykers, I suppose. Not to mention the observation of Weirdboyz on the battlefield.

Theocracity
18-03-2014, 18:59
The psychic ability of Orks could've been fairly easily established due to their encounter with Imperial Psykers, I suppose. Not to mention the observation of Weirdboyz on the battlefield.

Right, but seeing a weirdboy in battle doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion that all Orks are psychic, and that this psychic energy is the only thing that keeps their guns working correctly.

I mean, by that same logic you might say that all humans only keep their lasguns working because of constant...prayer....

...you know what, I think Anzion's theory makes perfect sense within the boundaries of his understanding :D.

Crazy Ivan
18-03-2014, 19:22
Right, but seeing a weirdboy in battle doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion that all Orks are psychic, and that this psychic energy is the only thing that keeps their guns working correctly.

I mean, by that same logic you might say that all humans only keep their lasguns working because of constant...prayer....

...you know what, I think Anzion's theory makes perfect sense within the boundaries of his understanding :D.
Exactly. :D With the information Anzion could plausibly have available, his conclusion is the logical one. That it may be entirely wrong doesn't detract from the fact that he is clearly quite a capable scientist in-universe. It also holds up to repeated observation - although it's conceivable that some other techpriest comes up with a different theory, Anzion's theory conceivably requires the smallest number of "leaps", making it the best. Note that many of the people we rightly consider to be great scientists have now been proven to be wrong in almost every detail of their theories - which doesn't mean that those theories didn't help us advance our understanding of the truth anyway.

Theocracity
18-03-2014, 19:28
Exactly. :D With the information Anzion could plausibly have available, his conclusion is the logical one. That it may be entirely wrong doesn't detract from the fact that he is clearly quite a capable scientist in-universe. It also holds up to repeated observation - although it's conceivable that some other techpriest comes up with a different theory, Anzion's theory conceivably requires the smallest number of "leaps", making it the best. Note that many of the people we rightly consider to be great scientists have now been proven to be wrong in almost every detail of their theories - which doesn't mean that those theories didn't help us advance our understanding of the truth anyway.

I guess the rules of what's considered scientific progress are a little different in a world where actual, literal magic is a verifiable data point.

bittick
19-03-2014, 01:13
I prefer to think that in the 40K universe, crazy Rube Goldberg contraptions, giant robots, and other out-there technology just work because the universe's set of physics is more fun. Superman can fly because he's from another planet, so there.

Lothlanathorian
19-03-2014, 01:30
I prefer to think that in the 40K universe, crazy Rube Goldberg contraptions, giant robots, and other out-there technology just work because the universe's set of physics is more fun. Superman can fly because he's from another planet, so there.


I guess the rules of what's considered scientific progress are a little different in a world where actual, literal magic is a verifiable data point.

Both of these.

Catt
19-03-2014, 14:18
I thought it was reasonably well established theory that Orks, or their progenitors, were created by the Old Ones, along with the Eldar, to fight the Necrons and the C'Tan. Orks were designed to be an inherently psychic race as a result. Consequently Orky belief is an unconscious/conscious manifestation of latent psychic potential that can be channelled in various ways. The two obvious examples being making Choppas powerful enough to hack through power armour and to enable Orks to travel through the warp without Gellar Fields - as they produce a potent anti-daemon Orky-psychic bubble.

I don't doubt that much of their technology is basically mechanical though.

Theocracity
19-03-2014, 14:24
I thought it was reasonably well established theory that Orks, or their progenitors, were created by the Old Ones, along with the Eldar, to fight the Necrons and the C'Tan. Orks were designed to be an inherently psychic race as a result. Consequently Orky belief is an unconscious/conscious manifestation of latent psychic potential that can be channelled in various ways. The two obvious examples being making Choppas powerful enough to hack through power armour and to enable Orks to travel through the warp without Gellar Fields - as they produce a potent anti-daemon Orky-psychic bubble.

I don't doubt that much of their technology is basically mechanical though.

I'm not aware of any AP3 choppas - in game terms a lasgun has the same shot of breaking PA as a choppa. And as far as Gellar fields go, I haven't heard of any anti-demon psychic fields generated by Orks - in fact I'm pretty sure that demons are more of a source of fun during otherwise boring warp trips. From what I understand (though I can't cite this) that's one of the reasons why Wyrdboys are more common among Snakebites or other 'savage' Orks - they tend to be the first to go during warp travel, and thus are less common among more mobile clans.

Denny
19-03-2014, 16:50
I guess the rules of what's considered scientific progress are a little different in a world where actual, literal magic is a verifiable data point.

This is a great point.
'This machine appears to be powered by magic' is perfectly reasonable. Whenever you don't understand something despite extensive analysis 'Magic' is probably the most logical explanation.

(Doesn't mean it's correct of course . . .)

Lothlanathorian
19-03-2014, 18:41
I'm not aware of any AP3 choppas - in game terms a lasgun has the same shot of breaking PA as a choppa. And as far as Gellar fields go, I haven't heard of any anti-demon psychic fields generated by Orks - in fact I'm pretty sure that demons are more of a source of fun during otherwise boring warp trips. From what I understand (though I can't cite this) that's one of the reasons why Wyrdboys are more common among Snakebites or other 'savage' Orks - they tend to be the first to go during warp travel, and thus are less common among more mobile clans.

The "Orks make their own Gellar Field" thing I've definitely read before. Well, I'm paraphrasing, obviously, but, definitely read something to that effect. Will have to find my BFG rules and see if it is in there.

As far as Choppas choppin' power armour, yes, they were better at it than lasguns in the rules at one point. In 3rd Edition, no armour save against a Choppa could be greater than a 4+. And this is without remembering what Orks were armed with in 2nd Edition where everything had multipliers and math was a part of any and every roll.

jakejackjake
19-03-2014, 19:07
^Also the Armageddon Ork Hunters use captured Ork gear.

Yes but it is only supposed to be some tech not all tech. I like the idea of latent psyker orks

Reiko321
20-03-2014, 01:58
I do not have reference points, but I believe that ork ships in BFG do not work either (have no working parts in them) ...I recall this but do not have ref for you sorry.


As I understand it from too many rules versions and background writeups ... Orks are the most powerful psychics in the multiverse but simply do not know it.


Gork, more and the waaagh being their mechanisms to make the powers work.


And they are mushrooms - that's a fact.

bittick
20-03-2014, 02:21
I do not have reference points, but I believe that ork ships in BFG do not work either (have no working parts in them) ...I recall this but do not have ref for you sorry.


I'm pretty sure that is not accurate. Kroot learned warp travel by eating dead ork brains and learning how to build ships, if I recall.

jakejackjake
20-03-2014, 10:58
I'm pretty sure that is not accurate. Kroot learned warp travel by eating dead ork brains and learning how to build ships, if I recall.

This can't be true since the Tau would certainly have warp travel then. So I'd say no, and if it was in the fluff at some point there is no way it is canon now.

Crazy Ivan
20-03-2014, 11:36
This can't be true since the Tau would certainly have warp travel then. So I'd say no, and if it was in the fluff at some point there is no way it is canon now.
I haven't heard this wouldn't be canon anymore. For one thing, we know that the Kroot definitely don't share everything with the Tau (for example the fact that some Kroot work as mercenaries for others than the Tau). Also, several other of he Tau Empire's species definitely also have warp travel capability (the Nicassar, most prominently). The Tau are apparently either unable to make this work for their own ships because due to their natural lack of psyker ability they aren't able to navigate the warp fully and so have to "skim" it. (Unless this has been superceded by new fluff.)

In any case, I also recall the story that the Kroot learned warp travel and several other technologies from eating the crew of a crashed Ork ship - it was a major part of their backstory.

MarcoSkoll
20-03-2014, 17:08
This can't be true since the Tau would certainly have warp travel then.
They do. Just not very good warp travel.

Tau's limitation is not so much that they can't build warp drives - they must have captured any number over the years (Kroot warp travel entirely aside) and they excel at reverse engineering - but that their genetics don't provide the warp sensitivity that allows a species to (relatively) safely use warp travel over long distances.

As for why the Tau don't use other species as pilots - well, who knows. Perhaps the Ethereals prefer not to have things out of their control like that.

Lord Damocles
20-03-2014, 19:20
If Orks ships didn't really work, why would they have visible engines, weapon batteries, and so on?

If Orks could just believe themselves into space, why would they need ships at all?

Askil the Undecided
20-03-2014, 23:53
Beleif magic is the theory of a single magos who couldn`t understand how ork tech worked.

He didn`t understand or how their machine spirits coud bear such abuse, and he blamed some vague xenos psyker trick which he didn`t really understand either.

It is unfortunate that single fluff piece that got seized on by the internet and spawned a few mentions in later books.

It`s not true, it`s an in-universe theory offered by a religious nut who doesn`t believe the technology behid a liht switch works without the right prayers.

Lothlanathorian
21-03-2014, 01:50
If Orks ships didn't really work, why would they have visible engines, weapon batteries, and so on?

If Orks could just believe themselves into space, why would they need ships at all?

Cartoon gravity. Not falling until you look down. They need a ship to believe it. Anything else would just be silly. /devilsadvocate

Largo
22-03-2014, 09:27
I prefer to think that Ork tech works fine, if you use it just right. Like applying pressure on an essential loose part, having a Grot use its finger to plug the correct leak, or slam a jamming shoota the correct way against an appropriate rock.

Ork Mekboys can build functional machines thanks to the information in their genetics. They may not consciously know why a machine works, but they can instinctively build a device that does what they want and obeys the physical laws. And a regular Ork boy can make use of it due to the Orks' latent psychic capabilities to 'know' how to use a mekboy's device without actually learning to use it. The boy doesn't even realise he somehow gained knowledge he didn't have before. It is well-known a psyker can 'feel' information about an object using his talents. Orks probably do the same, albeit unconsciously. Even moreso if a Waagh! is underway.

If a mekboy paints a vehicle red, it doesn't go faster because he believes i should, but the symbolism allows him to tap just a bit more into his genetic knowledge, allowing him to push the limits of the engines a bit further without blowing himself up. And the red colour allows another boy to tap into his psychic Waagh! talents, letting him unconsciously know what the creating mekboy knew on getting the most out of the engine.

This is pretty much exactly what I thought was meant

Sgt John Keel
26-03-2014, 20:34
Cartoon gravity. Not falling until you look down. They need a ship to believe it. Anything else would just be silly. /devilsadvocate

I quite like the Anzion Theorem, it (and the Warp in general) seems rather like an analogue of Pratchettian Narrative Causality. Things work (and work out) in a special way because people believe it is only proper that it should be that way. In the same way, it's a bit like a Cargo Cult which I also think is a super-interesting phenomenon.

And is it really more believable that the Orks can set up large enough scale precision manufacturing capabilities to sustain interplanetary campaigns?

Theocracity
26-03-2014, 20:53
And is it really more believable that the Orks can set up large enough scale precision manufacturing capabilities to sustain interplanetary campaigns?

That's what grots, oddboyz and enslaved populations are for!

quantumcollider
30-03-2014, 15:27
I like to compare Orks with ants.

Contrary to popular belief, ants do not have a hive mind like the tyranids. Each ant is essentially a individual with very limited mental capacity. And their methods of communication are simply touching with feelers and pheromone trails.

Yet despite this, an ant hive as a whole can achieve remarkable things. Build strongholds (sometimes using their own bodies!), forage and grow food, even wage wars.

I think Ork society functions the same way. Using their limited mental capacity to perform tasks (nobz bossing others around, grotz nicking stuff, mekboys welding parts together etc), and by communicating with their version of pheromones and feelers (waaagh! energy and loud shouting) all those individual random actions somehow create an ordered society.

Scammel
30-03-2014, 21:04
Cartoon gravity. Not falling until you look down. They need a ship to believe it. Anything else would just be silly. /devilsadvocate

I think you undersell your own point, actually. I personally justify the whole situation by theorising that the Orks are still, ultimately, fairly 'logical' creatures - no self-respecting greenskin is going to have faith in a Shoota that is literally a box with holes in it. Orks appear to fully grasp the need for fuel, ammunition etc and their psychic capabilities simply help these processes along. A slight fault in a Shoota's mechanism that otherwise renders the weapon unusable might be mentally flexed into place, though it won't help if the Ork knows there's no bullets. A Red Trukk might go ever so slightly Fasta with the will of the warband behind it, but that will is going to dissipate once it loses a wheel.

omegoku
02-04-2014, 13:37
Red ones go faster cos they paint the best trukks red. The orks see the red ones are faster so they assume its because its red.
The fact that the mek always paints his best trukks red is the power at work, not the other way around.

Ork weapons are crude by Imperial standards but they work cos the boys are tough, not through magic.
A gun that is barely usable due to recoil or the fact the handle heats up to burning levels can be compensated by the orks lack of pain receptors (less not none) and his immense strength. Plus he wasn't that good a shot to begin with, so the loss of accuracy is more than made up by the sheer number of bullets and the noise it makes.

seven324
02-04-2014, 21:37
I'm not trying to be mean or something when i say this, but i see quite a few posts here that are speculation on how specifically the "Orks believe it so it's true" works, when there hasn't been any actual posted proof of it working at all the first place. There is the Anzion theory, but that seems to be about it for the evidence although people still say it like it's a 100% confirmed thing. I know people can believe what they like about most W40K fluff but that really doesn't seem a lot to go on, unless there's more to support it that hasn't been mentioned yet. It just seems that it's become such a common misconception lots of people seem to believe it's a completely true thing.

Lord Zarkov
04-04-2014, 19:56
Proof that Ork shootas can be fired by non-orks and evidence that they're less effective in the hands of non-orks can be found in their use by Armogeddon Ork Hunters and Kroot Mercenaries.
The former (humans) could only fire them at BS2 rather than their natural 3 as they could not use them properly and the latter (remember humanoid Kroot evolved due to Ork DNA) could fire at BS3-4.
Yeah I know rules =/= fluff, but the former at least had an explicit note stating the fluff of it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Scammel
06-04-2014, 08:31
I'm not trying to be mean or something when i say this, but i see quite a few posts here that are speculation on how specifically the "Orks believe it so it's true" works, when there hasn't been any actual posted proof of it working at all the first place. There is the Anzion theory, but that seems to be about it for the evidence although people still say it like it's a 100% confirmed thing. I know people can believe what they like about most W40K fluff but that really doesn't seem a lot to go on, unless there's more to support it that hasn't been mentioned yet. It just seems that it's become such a common misconception lots of people seem to believe it's a completely true thing.

Anzion's theory may be just that - a theory - but it's made up so much of the bulk of Ork background and presented so frequently that it's pretty clear that the intent of the author is simply to find a novel way (a scientific report) of presenting 'true' background info. Of course, it's very cleverly done inasmuch that it leads room for doubt (as with much of the 40k background) but I'm supremely sceptical that they'd just inject complete falsehoods into their background material. Without direct contradiction from another piece of material, it stands and I don't see why it needs repeating.


Red ones go faster cos they paint the best trukks red. The orks see the red ones are faster so they assume its because its red.
The fact that the mek always paints his best trukks red is the power at work, not the other way around.

I think it's surprising that you present your case so adamantly when it pretty much directly contradicts existing background and doesn't really have much basis in said background. It seems logical enough but we do have a piece of material that all up directly tells us the secret.

Lord Damocles
06-04-2014, 11:27
Anzion's theory may be just that - a theory - but it's made up so much of the bulk of Ork background and presented so frequently that it's pretty clear that the intent of the author is simply to find a novel way (a scientific report) of presenting 'true' background info.
Is it repeated that frequently..?

I can only think of the one time it was presented - which was the 3rd edition Codex: Orks(?).


Besides which there's plenty of evidence that Ork technology doesn't work [principally] on 'clap your hands if you believe' primciples - all of the times Ork technology actually works when not used by Orks; and the fact that Orks aren't all firing death rays out of sticks and using rocks as grenades.

Scammel
06-04-2014, 15:26
Is it repeated that frequently..?

I can only think of the one time it was presented - which was the 3rd edition Codex: Orks(?).


Besides which there's plenty of evidence that Ork technology doesn't work [principally] on 'clap your hands if you believe' primciples - all of the times Ork technology actually works when not used by Orks; and the fact that Orks aren't all firing death rays out of sticks and using rocks as grenades.

Well, as repeatedly as it can be - Anzion's definitely in the most recent book as well. Furthermore, I don't think anyone is or ever has argued that every component of Ork technology is dependent on psychic operation or that it's even that potent - Red Wunz go one measly inch Fasta with the collective psychic might of the entire race. These guys are not mentally bench-pressing Land Raiders.

MarcoSkoll
06-04-2014, 23:56
... but I'm supremely sceptical that they'd just inject complete falsehoods into their background material.
I'm not. It's an established part of the fluff that the Adeptus Mechanicus take a highly unscientific approach, functioning by rote rather than understanding.

Hence, my scepticism swings the other way - I'm sceptical of how much (if any) truth there is in anything written by a member of the AdMech.

luchog
07-04-2014, 00:41
Well, as repeatedly as it can be - Anzion's definitely in the most recent book as well. Furthermore, I don't think anyone is or ever has argued that every component of Ork technology is dependent on psychic operation or that it's even that potent - Red Wunz go one measly inch Fasta with the collective psychic might of the entire race. These guys are not mentally bench-pressing Land Raiders.

The idea of Orks posessing a low-level group-based psychic ability has been there effectively since the beginning, giving their technology a "Clap Your Hands If You Beleive" component. But they also have a genetic understanding of how to do what they do; and all of their construction and organization comes from their race-memory. GW has never come out and officially said "This part of what they do is genetic, this other part belongs to the psychic gestalt, " with a few exceptions. It is explicit in the backstory that the Orks are an engineered race, engineered by the Old Ones much as they did with the Eldar, to fight the C'Tan and Necrontyr. It's also explicit that they were given a gestalt psychic ability that increases as they gather into a Waaagh!

The official fluff has gone back and forth on how much this affects their technology; and seems to vary with each edition how much is psychic, and how much is genetic. I recall reading in at least one official source, possibly White Dwarf, possibly back in 2nd Ed., that quote from the earlier in the thread about Ork "Da Red Onez Go Fasta", "Da Blue Onez Is Lucky", and so on. The fluff that I recall was not that Ork technology doesn't work without their psychic ability; but that it works better than it should, given how crude it is, due to their psychic ability.

I don't have any real emotional investment either way, but given the vagueness with which GW fluff treats the issue, and the previous writings, I generally go with the psychic interpretation.

Night Bearer
07-04-2014, 03:16
Right, but seeing a weirdboy in battle doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion that all Orks are psychic, and that this psychic energy is the only thing that keeps their guns working correctly.

I mean, by that same logic you might say that all humans only keep their lasguns working because of constant...prayer....

...you know what, I think Anzion's theory makes perfect sense within the boundaries of his understanding :D.
AFAIK, it's been long established that Weirdboyz feed off the latent psychic energy of all Orks, which in-universe means they get more powerful (to the point of being uncontrollably powerful) the more boyz they're near and the more frenzied the boyz get (ie fighting as opposed to waiting to fight).

Which in turn, also in-universe, would likely mean that over 10,000+ years, Imperial armies have noticed that the Weirdboyz of massive Ork Waaaghs tend to be more powerful than those of smaller forces, like the weirdboyz in a Waaagh-Thraka versus those on a random kroozer.

IE, there's likely a consistent trend that the Imperium has picked up on so that, even if their own psykers aren't noticing it directly, they could still reach that conclusion that the race as a whole is relatively psychically active.

Sanai
07-04-2014, 04:06
If Orks ships didn't really work, why would they have visible engines, weapon batteries, and so on?
If Orks could just believe themselves into space, why would they need ships at all?

Because you won't believe that you can fly in space unless you have a spaceship.

Given how unreliable ork tech is, and how ramshackle their ships are, its actually more believable that the ship is protected from calamity by psychic gestalt than it is believable that the ship functions in space without a hull breach sucking out all of the oxygen because the orks think that just welding bits of scrap metal together randomly makes for good hull integrity- or any of the other thousand things that can go wrong in a spaceship... and these are only the things that can go wrong in a spaceship designed by thousands of experts and engineers, a randomly cobbled together pile of metal with engines is even worse.

Hendarion
07-04-2014, 04:42
Beleif magic is the theory of a single magos who couldn`t understand how ork tech worked.Especially since the Imperium can't believe any tech to work if there isn't some Mechanicum symbol on every side of the thing plus half a dozen prayer insignia. ;)

Reasonable Commissar
07-04-2014, 14:50
I think in one novel some humans steal ork fighta bombas and one of them notices theres like no way to breath in it properly.

I also recall something about their planes going into space and an Ork rolling down the window so he could shout at another planes pilot. I think that was in the comic I cant remember the name of.

Theocracity
07-04-2014, 15:28
Because you won't believe that you can fly in space unless you have a spaceship.

Given how unreliable ork tech is, and how ramshackle their ships are, its actually more believable that the ship is protected from calamity by psychic gestalt than it is believable that the ship functions in space without a hull breach sucking out all of the oxygen because the orks think that just welding bits of scrap metal together randomly makes for good hull integrity- or any of the other thousand things that can go wrong in a spaceship... and these are only the things that can go wrong in a spaceship designed by thousands of experts and engineers, a randomly cobbled together pile of metal with engines is even worse.

Who says it's been cobbled together randomly? Meks have genetic technological skill - even if the result's not very reliable it's still got what it needs.

Also of note is that Orks don't have as much need of air as humans do. As RC notes Orks don't usually make accommodations for it in their vehicles, and I'm pretty sure I've read something about Orks fighting on an airless moon by holding their breath.

Comical and unrealistic? Yes. But we are dealing with Orks here - not only are they comical and unrealistic already, they're also fungoid aliens. Their tolerances for survival can easily be much greater than a human's.


I think in one novel some humans steal ork fighta bombas and one of them notices theres like no way to breath in it properly.

I also recall something about their planes going into space and an Ork rolling down the window so he could shout at another planes pilot. I think that was in the comic I cant remember the name of.

I believe that's Deff Skwadron, if I've got the name right. I'm also amused by the technical diagram which showed the fuel lines being routed through the cockpit, mainly so that the pilot could take a sip from it if they get thirsty :D.

Scammel
07-04-2014, 17:09
:p I like how the alternative to 'collective subconscious psychic gestalt' is 'they're ded good at 'oldin' there breff'.

Theocracity
07-04-2014, 17:26
:p I like how the alternative to 'collective subconscious psychic gestalt' is 'they're ded good at 'oldin' there breff'.

Among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest set of assumptions should be selected.

In this case, that rule should probably be called Okkam's Choppa :D. Though perhaps that should more properly go "If dere's two different ideas, whicheva one makes me 'ead hurt less when I fink about it is da one we're gonna do, cuz I'm da boss."

just_jay
07-04-2014, 17:33
I don't see the problem with it, Orks are supposed to be quirky and logic defying. Besides, 40k really isn't the place to assert realism; extra-dimensional dieties, explosions in space, sentient beings made of pure cosmic energy and space dust, etc. And similar things have been theaorized about the human race, "Consensus Reality," and whatnot. It's not as if Space Marines themselves stick to the confines of reality either; Roboute Guilliman was able to not only breathe in space without a helmet but also managed to scream at his enemies...

MarcoSkoll
07-04-2014, 19:51
I think this is possibly the most relevant image for this discussion:

190988

Scammel
07-04-2014, 22:03
Among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest set of assumptions should be selected.

In this case, that rule should probably be called Okkam's Choppa :D. Though perhaps that should more properly go "If dere's two different ideas, whicheva one makes me 'ead hurt less when I fink about it is da one we're gonna do, cuz I'm da boss."

My problem being that if both were bits of fan-generated speculation, that'd hold true, but one theory is presented in such a way that's pretty clearly supposed to be taken for the truth (even if there is, in typical GW style, room left for doubt). Anzion's text takes up a lot of space in the paper-thin 3rd ed book, itself clearly designed to tell us what we need to know about the race and little else. It's a case of reading between the lines and figuring out what the GW author is trying to do rather than regard it as a historian/scientist might.

Retrospectus
07-04-2014, 22:55
Among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest set of assumptions should be selected.

In this case, that rule should probably be called Okkam's Choppa :D. Though perhaps that should more properly go "If dere's two different ideas, whicheva one makes me 'ead hurt less when I fink about it is da one we're gonna do, cuz I'm da boss."

except applying occams razor to the argument would support anzion, seeing as that theory is the only one with any backing from GW (regardless of the unreliability of the narrator).
no-one is suggesting that orks can shoot bullets from sticks or fly into space entirely on willpower (not aimed just at you, been mentioned by a few) just that their equipment is next to worthless in anyone's hands but an ork due to their psychic ability keeping the less well built bits together.
as for the armaggedon ork hunters, who's to say that they didn't sift through dozens of useless shootas before finding one they could operate? or even fiddling with the guns to make them work better?
Anzions theory is the only one with backing from GW regardless of how unreliable the admech can be, anything else is fan theory

Formerly Wu
07-04-2014, 23:53
except applying occams razor to the argument would support anzion, seeing as that theory is the only one with any backing from GW (regardless of the unreliability of the narrator).
no-one is suggesting that orks can shoot bullets from sticks or fly into space entirely on willpower (not aimed just at you, been mentioned by a few) just that their equipment is next to worthless in anyone's hands but an ork due to their psychic ability keeping the less well built bits together.
as for the armaggedon ork hunters, who's to say that they didn't sift through dozens of useless shootas before finding one they could operate? or even fiddling with the guns to make them work better?
Anzions theory is the only one with backing from GW regardless of how unreliable the admech can be, anything else is fan theory
Except we also know straight from GW that orks have innate technical know-how encoded into their genes, and that their physiology is hardy enough to smooth over the "rough edges" of its use. So we don't actually need a psychic gestalt to explain why it functions, and it's not "fan theory" to suggest otherwise.

Lothlanathorian
08-04-2014, 01:08
And we also know direct from GW that Orks do, in fact, have a psychic gestalt consciousness which helps explain why the shoddy weapons they make from their genetically imparted knowledge work better than one would expect them to. Holy ****, we can have our cake and eat it, too.

MarcoSkoll
08-04-2014, 01:55
And we also know direct from GW that Orks...
No, we know directly via a member of a backwards organisation that thinks a machine's "on" button only works if everything has been properly wafted with incense, anointed with sacred oils and prayed to first.

... and while that does accurately describe how GW handles the internet, I do mean the Adeptus Mechanicus.

Sanai
08-04-2014, 02:53
No, we know directly via a member of a backwards organisation that thinks a machine's "on" button only works if everything has been properly wafted with incense, anointed with sacred oils and prayed to first.

People aren't giving the Adeptus Mechanicus enough credit here. They do understand the operating principles of most of their machines- in some books you even see them cobble together working devices from spare components, something you would not be able to do without knowing how the thing works. If you read Mechanicum, you learn that the prayers/invocations they make often act as voice activated passwords for the devices software.

Its not a case of them thinking the on button needs prayers and oils, its a case of them knowing that the on button needs a voice activated password and that the sentient machine spirit needs to be treated respectfully if you expect it to co-operate.- sure, most of them may have forgotten that its just a password and not a prayer, but that is beside the point.

Something as simple as a machine gun or rudimentary internal combustion engine is well within a Tech Priests knowledge of how it should function.

MarcoSkoll
08-04-2014, 04:47
in some books you even see them cobble together working devices from spare components, something you would not be able to do without knowing how the thing works.
To that, I present John Searle's Chinese Room argument.

In summary: With a complicated enough instruction set, one can appear to be able to speak Chinese, even without actually being able to understand the language.
Basically, it's a refutation of a Turing test being an indicator of understanding.


...sentient machine spirit...
And there's the rub. A lot of machines that are patently not sentient are treated as if they are.

Take the following: The machine spirit is supposed to serve the Omnissiah. A Tau does not serve the Omnissiah. Thus, if a Tau were to use something like an autogun against a loyal servant of the Omnissiah, it should stop working. So, does an autogun stop working if a Tau picks it up?

I'd be inclined to say no, to which the most logical conclusion is that, like in our universe, most machinery is not actually sentient.

Hendarion
08-04-2014, 05:05
People aren't giving the Adeptus Mechanicus enough credit here. They do understand the operating principles of most of their machines- in some books you even see them cobble together working devices from spare components, something you would not be able to do without knowing how the thing works. If you read Mechanicum, you learn that the prayers/invocations they make often act as voice activated passwords for the devices software.

Its not a case of them thinking the on button needs prayers and oils, its a case of them knowing that the on button needs a voice activated password and that the sentient machine spirit needs to be treated respectfully if you expect it to co-operate.- sure, most of them may have forgotten that its just a password and not a prayer, but that is beside the point.

Something as simple as a machine gun or rudimentary internal combustion engine is well within a Tech Priests knowledge of how it should function.
I'm actually not that sure about your presentation here. It sounds partly true. But there's not always a password needed to activated for example a Lasgun or a Bolter and still they put insignia on it and pray to the Omnissia or Machine Spirit or whatever and bless it - which surely doesn't do anything at all except to please the cult itself.

Scammel
08-04-2014, 07:41
No, we know directly via a member of a backwards organisation that thinks a machine's "on" button only works if everything has been properly wafted with incense, anointed with sacred oils and prayed to first.

We know indirectly from GW about the gestalt. They simply chose an interesting means of presenting the information (the 3rd books were great for not simply 'telling' the reader certain bits) but I really don't think their intent was for the reader to disregard it due to the nature of the mouthpiece. Again, these books are paper-thin and very light on background compared to both previous and later editions, there probably isn't 'room' for blatantly untrue material.

Sanai
08-04-2014, 09:56
There isn't always a password or a sentient machine spirit, but a significant number of machines do have said things. The point is the priesthood is not as stupid as people are making them out to be.

Besides, if I was the crew of a large armoured vehicle armed with Lascannons & Heavy Bolters that can drive around and shoot things on its own, I would err on the safe side and avoid offending the damn thing.

Hendarion
08-04-2014, 12:39
The priests aren't stupid, they are religious. For them, this is a truth although it actually has no physical difference - at least mostly. So of course it isn't surprising that they don't believe crude machines to function with a lot of the stuff they are used to and they have knowledge about. After all, lots of xeno-tech for them is unholy sacrilege or non-understandable. Eldar stuff just as one example. Still the stuff works quite properly.

Formerly Wu
08-04-2014, 15:45
I've always considered the Mechanicus's attitude towards technology to be a fairly rational response to their environment. After all, they live in a time when technology is:



very poorly understood, with some workings lost forever
unevenly distributed but critical to the continuance of civilization
potentially dangerous on a scale ranging from the personal to the societal
sometimes possesses an intellect/will of some variety


Given that, a "better safe than sorry" attitude is probably humanity's best bet as a whole. Who cares if that lasgun has a machine spirit or not? Treat it like it does, and inculcate an attitude of superstitious respect in the laity, and you're less likely to suffer when some curious idiot finds the planetary atmospheric scrubber and pisses off its machine spirit enough to make it start spitting SO2 instead of oxygen.

Lord Zarkov
08-04-2014, 21:52
It's also worth noting with the Ad Mech that a lot of the mumbo jumbo they spout is more to keep the laity in line then because the high-ups truly believe it.
If you tell your already pretty religious citizen 'you have to let us make/control/etc all these complex machines because of a spirit that will be angered and make it break if it's not handled in the correct manner by us alone' then not only do you discourage them from meddling with, and potentially breaking, the pieces of technology they have which are super complicated! but you maintain your monopoly of control over even the simple things.

If you read the novels, despite spouting all the religious stuff at all and sundry, Techpriests of Magos rank and above have a fairly deep understanding of some exceptionally complex things, beyond what we can do now, and even the lower downs can know enough about the principles behind the simpler stuff to make alterations as necessary - however much they might complain about having to do so.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

carlisimo
09-04-2014, 22:53
This is a universe with psychic powers in it. Telekinesis is all over the place. Orks willing a scrapheap to work is just a form of that – in the context of 40k, what’s so weird about it?

Hendarion
10-04-2014, 04:48
It is the extent to which some people seam to exaggerate it.

Lothlanathorian
10-04-2014, 06:48
You mean it's the extent to which the people who want to claim it couldn't possibly be a thing exaggerate it to make it sound like those who think it could be a thing are crazy. I've never seen anyone on this board claim Orks can shoot bullets out of sticks or any other nonsense on that scale. One person asked a question like the once in an effort to an explanation/theories, but, no one has ever legitimately suggested this was possible.

Granted, if I am wrong, I am completely willing to read the links you'll surely be providing to refute this.

Hendarion
10-04-2014, 09:00
I've never seen anyone on this board claim Orks can shoot bullets out of sticks or any other nonsense on that scale.Then check again to find claims where inside Ork guns there was found only rubble and still they could fire. Or where Orks weaponry was claimed to not be able to work at all although we know that Ork Hunters are using Ork Weapons and still they work without any Orky believe.
I'm not saying the Ork Waaagh field has no effect, it probably has. But it doesn't make non-functional things functional. This is exaggeration already.

Lord Squidar
10-04-2014, 09:43
About 15 years ago when I was still a yoof, I had the great pleasure on going on an afternoon safari in a willies jeep from the 1950's which was still in perfect running order. The highlight of the trip was careening down a ditch so fast and hard that some beers will spilled and the front axle of the jeep fell out of its socket. Repair time? About 5 minutes for the boys to lift the jeep onto its side (was that light) and literally push the axle and other offending parts back into place, and stop for another beer because its hot in Africa. We drove off with no problem...

This is exactly how ork technology works, its basic to the extreme, basic and rugged. Not even by human standards, rugged for beings which can compete in brute strength with genetically engineered super humans. So maybe regular humans can't fire ork weapons because they aren't strong enough to pull the triggers, or turn the steering wheel and so on. Maybe the few working pieces they do find are some that just happen to have a better firing mechanism because the mek was bored when he made it or something.

This exact same phenomenon in our own world right now is why the AK 47 is the most common assault rifle in the world despite it being very old and outclassed by fancier more expensive guns, but you can still swim through a swamp with an AK on your back, come out the other end and fire off your cheap bullets.

Theocracity
10-04-2014, 13:36
You mean it's the extent to which the people who want to claim it couldn't possibly be a thing exaggerate it to make it sound like those who think it could be a thing are crazy. I've never seen anyone on this board claim Orks can shoot bullets out of sticks or any other nonsense on that scale. One person asked a question like the once in an effort to an explanation/theories, but, no one has ever legitimately suggested this was possible.

Granted, if I am wrong, I am completely willing to read the links you'll surely be providing to refute this.

How about you check out the title and OP of this thread?


I've seen a large amount of people say things like "Orks believe it so it's true" and that they have an actual effect on the things around them, as long as there are enough orks and they all believe something - which is why red vehicles go faster.

...
The W40K wiki mentions it specifically as "if enough Orks believe something is true, then it will actually become so" but i don't trust the site at all. The Lexicanum also mentions it....


The quotes he's skeptically questioning are what we're talking about when we refer to the exaggerations made by fans. It's fine if you prefer Anzion's theory as an explanation, but IMO there's no real need for it.

Lord Damocles
10-04-2014, 19:51
You mean it's the extent to which the people who want to claim it couldn't possibly be a thing exaggerate it to make it sound like those who think it could be a thing are crazy.
I have no problem with Orks being able to get over minor niggles in the functioning of their technology using magic; or a Mek's innate technological knowhow allowing them to overcome/work around what would otherwise be flawed designs (I even cited the Dark Heresy rules which may offer support for the theory).

But in this very thread we've seen people claiming that functioning Ork guns are just a collection of loose parts, and that Ork spacecraft have no working parts - supported by only wooley references and/or Lexicanum/Wiki and 'well Anzion said it so it must be true', while apparently ignoring that fact that we know that Ork weapons actually work because non-Orks sometimes use them.
Magos Barrous proved during the Calculometry Schism that Necron gauss weapons are a mathematical impossibility (Codex: Necrons (3rd ed.) pg.54) , yet people don't claim that gauss weapons aren't a thing, despite that being presented in the same format as Anzion's theory/theories (ie. in-universe Imperial/Ad Mech report(s) from the 3rd edition era).

MarcoSkoll
10-04-2014, 20:27
...while apparently ignoring that fact that we know that Ork weapons actually work because non-Orks sometimes use them.
It's also noted that non-Ork stuff in Ork hands is very unreliable.

To cite the same 3rd Ed codex, looted weapons and vehicles have to roll on random effect tables, and the Battlewagon fluff explains that looted vehicles are invariably destined to break down catastrophically.

If Orks can't make once working machinery function properly, a shoota full uf nutz n' boltz iz outta tha kwezt-shun.

Lupe
11-04-2014, 05:56
It's also noted that non-Ork stuff in Ork hands is very unreliable.

To cite the same 3rd Ed codex, looted weapons and vehicles have to roll on random effect tables, and the Battlewagon fluff explains that looted vehicles are invariably destined to break down catastrophically.


Well, to be fair, that's cause Orks don't use the vehicles the way they were designed to be operated.

They would be driving a car by keeping the accelerator pressed without ever shifting out of first gear, or loading a cannon with the shell it's supposed to fire, and then throwing in a few grenades in, for good measure. That's why Orks don't do well with looted stuff.

MarcoSkoll
11-04-2014, 16:11
Well, to be fair, that's cause Orks don't use the vehicles the way they were designed to be operated.
But the Anzion Theorem, if you take the example of a "working" gun full of nothing but loose metal junk to be true, proposes that the way machinery should actually operate is irrelevant to an Ork, and it's all about the way they think it should operate.

If an Ork's belief can get machinery that isn't even there to work, getting an abused diesel engine to turn over is nothing, given just how much abuse diesel engines can take in the first place (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFnVZXQD5_k) (and this was after they'd already lost it in the sea, crashed it into any number of things and set it on fire).

bittick
11-04-2014, 16:46
Again, ork science is a little bit cartooney by default, because it's funnier that way. It's closer in keeping with their theme. Anzion's theory is a deconstructionist take on why ork stuff works the way it does. If that's the type of universe you want, then I guess you can do that. Personally I'm not a fan of deconstructionist interpretations of most fiction. I don't like it when someone pulls apart every tiny detail and examines it under the eye of the biggest microscope they can find.

For instance: For a while there was a lot of speculation that Superman had to be psychic. Because if Lois Lane falls off a 1000 foot skyscraper, she will hit the ground in 7.9 seconds. But her cry for help will only travel at ~767 mph. If Superman is more than 1.6 miles away from Lois when she falls, then he will hear her scream well after she has already splatted on the ground. Since Superman is often shown to rocket across the city to deflect bullets, catch falling ladies, etc (and is warned of these events by his super-hearing), then clearly Superman must be psychic. He only thinks he is hearing her scream. In "reality" his ESP is going off warning him of what is about to happen. This theory culminated in the 1987 Man of Steel reboot by John Byrne, where Byrne specifically mentions that Superman's powers are partly psychic in nature.

This, of course, was really lame, and other writers quickly changed it back. Superman's powers had never been psychic. He can hear that good because he can just hear that good, just like he can fly because he's really strong. You can try to deconstruct the powers of the character, to see how they "really" work, but you're really just making change for the sake of change. We know Superman's powers wouldn't work in real life, just as we know ork technology wouldn't work in real life. It's a comic book/fantasy sci-fi wargame, and it only has to make sense within the laws of its own world.

That's why I don't like Anzion's theory. We shouldn't have to explain away some reason why orks and their silly Rube Goldberg technology manage to function. It's Mad Max Alien Science, that is good enough for me.

Lupe
11-04-2014, 18:00
But the Anzion Theorem, if you take the example of a "working" gun full of nothing but loose metal junk to be true, proposes that the way machinery should actually operate is irrelevant to an Ork, and it's all about the way they think it should operate.

The Anzion theorem does not state that an Ork gun is full of loose metal junk. In fact, it doesn't even state that it's a gun, I think.

It simply states that whatever it is Anzion was studying shouldn't be working. Let's assume it was a conventional, solid shot gun (not a Shokk Attack Gun or anything like that, because I'll get to it later on). The list of reasons for why a gun shouldn't work is not limited, in fact, to 'because it's in fact a banana/your hand with one finger pointed forwards/full of loose metal junk'.

There are other reasons why one could state that a gun shouldn't be working. For example, if the projectile doesn't leave the barrel with sufficient velocity to cause more than bruises and concussions, or if the chamber is made of a material that cannot withstand repeated detonations of the propellant charge, or if the projectile itself is destroyed by the detonation of the propellant, you're also in a situation where you can confidently state that the gun shouldn't be working.

This kind of situation is a lot more likely to be what Anzion is referring to. In this case, it's a lot easier to accept one of the following theories:
- Ork belief subtly adjusts one or more specific factors (i.e acceleration of the projectile, toughness of the material of the chamber, intensity of the blast, etc), effectively normalizing them to the parameters it would require for the desired effect to occur.
- Ork DNA comes with hard wired 'best practices' that allows Meks to bypass or even benefit from the situations described above (i.e Orky recipes for stronger gunpowder, a special process for tempering the blast chamber, making the projectile a particular shape to avoid being shattered by the blast, etc). Sometimes, this could even be innate knowledge of certain laws of physics that are unknown to or insufficiently documented by the Imperium of Man.
- A combination of the two

Note that some rare Ork tech, such as the Shokk Attack Gun I mentioned before, would probably be the only context where the Anzion theorem makes sense. Given how little Imperium understands the Warp (and how dangerous it is to try and expand that understanding), in this case 'MAGIC!!!!' is probably the best guess the AdMech has on the principles behind it. It would be like Archimedes trying to explain how jet aircraft work. Sure, he's the best scientist of his time, but he's been dead for thousands of years before mankind started working with the concepts that are required to understand the basics, let alone the breakthroughs in aerodinamics, propulsion, metallurgy and electronics to actually reverse engineer one. **With the obvious difference that the Orks get a free pass to skip scientific progress because someone a lot more advanced than them just hardwired stuff into their brain and are just winging it***

To sum my thoughts up, Anzion's theorem can only be taken ad literam in the case of extremely zany Ork tech, since that's probably what it was formulated for.

It doesn't apply to mundane stuff, like shootaz, sluggaz, truckks or such, and I doubt that the functionality of a crude, bastardized slug gun would have ever been worth the time of the AdMech's researchers, and I exceedingly doubt the fact that they wouldn't be able to explain why it works (even if that explanation would be that Orks are somehow bullying the weapon's machine spirit into submission).

MarcoSkoll
11-04-2014, 19:03
The Anzion theorem does not state that an Ork gun is full of loose metal junk.
It is, however, an example that has been used, and some players believe.

Lupe
11-04-2014, 19:51
It is, however, an example that has been used, and some players believe.

One that I don't personally agree with.The first reason is that it reduces the credibility of the Orks (in so far as the word credibility can be used in reference to a race of sapient space fungi football hooligans) in the setting. The second is that it's pretty much debunked by any available source, and is only loosely inspired by one particular interpretation of that single blurb of fluff that didn't come with a context for it in the first place.

At any rate, that's my stance on this particular example.

The Anzion theorem, and the extent to which the infamous Ork traits (latent psykers, DNA with hard-wired skills) really work are still interesting topics to break down, though. It's just that they work better when you're not going to any one extreme in the science vs magic debate.

SpaceTiger
12-04-2014, 15:56
How about this:

GellAr fields

In place of the flickering Geller fields of Imperial starships,
Orks use a variety of adornments, totems, huge hull-plate
“teef,” and glyphs to ward off the malign influence of
the warp. Whether these actually scare off warp
creatures (as Freebooterz have been known to
claim) or simply inspire such confidence in their crews that the
ships are wreathed in a crackling shield of WAAAGH! energy
while in the warp, is unknown. However, they seem to work.



life susTAiNers

The exact nature of Ork life sustainers is unknown. Boarding
parties and Mechanicus salvage teams have observed
everything from clanking pneumatic air pumps to giant
squigs of unknown breeds used as bellows. The only thing
these devices have in common is none of them should work.

These quotes come from Rogue Trader rpf Battlefleet Koronus pg 75-76 .

It seems like Ork belief at work to me rather than Ork science that no one else understands. There is some more stuff but I'm too lazy to search for them.

Lupe
12-04-2014, 17:01
How about this

These quotes come from Rogue Trader rpf Battlefleet Koronus pg 75-76 .

It seems like Ork belief at work to me rather than Ork science that no one else understands. There is some more stuff but I'm too lazy to search for them.

Wow, I've never seen those brought up before.

The first example is straightforward... It doesn't 'need' to be technology. It could well be outright mysticism, and even if it's not mysticism, the example is certainly still on the wacky side of the Ork tech tree. It's travel through the freaking Warp. This is something mankind really, really doesn't begin to have an idea how it works. What mankind knows for certain here is that symbolism and rituals are quite effective ways of using the Warp or defending from its perils. Finding and documenting the correct symbolism and rituals is actively discouraged, however, and for good reason. The Orks just happen to have access to specific knowledge of how to keep a spacecraft safe through the Warp, either because they blundered into it, or because it's just something else they instinctively know how to do. Alternatively, it could actually be that the Orks simply aren't attractive to the denizens of the Warp and the whole thing is just something they keep doing because they think it's effective.

The second example is pretty much another generalization that can well be tech that just works otherwise than the Mechanicum expects, or it something that requires belief to affect very specific parameters. I.e. The clanking air pumps DO work as air pumps. They can be identified as such a device by the people who reported on them. They just don't work as a life-support system. The problem with pumping air on a Rok or a not-so-airtight krooza, for instance, would be to prevent that air from escaping into space. Either the Orks know or do something the Mechanicum doesn't, or the Ork gestalt belief can somehow keep the air trapped inside the ship (or around it, or only around the areas of the ship with concentrated Ork populations).

What doesn't happen is that the Orks attaching some random tubes and valves to a cylinder and make-believing it into an effective air filtration device. Also, do the Orks even need to breathe? :-/

SpaceTiger
12-04-2014, 17:07
Wow, I've never seen those brought up before.

The first example is straightforward... It doesn't 'need' to be technology. It could well be outright mysticism, and even if it's not mysticism, the example is certainly still on the wacky side of the Ork tech tree. It's travel through the freaking Warp. This is something mankind really, really doesn't begin to have an idea how it works. What mankind knows for certain here is that symbolism and rituals are quite effective ways of using the Warp or defending from its perils. Finding and documenting the correct symbolism and rituals is actively discouraged, however, and for good reason. The Orks just happen to have access to specific knowledge of how to keep a spacecraft safe through the Warp, either because they blundered into it, or because it's just something else they instinctively know how to do. Alternatively, it could actually be that the Orks simply aren't attractive to the denizens of the Warp and the whole thing is just something they keep doing because they think it's effective.So cause they believe that it works, it works or just plain magic crap fueled by the Waaagh which comes from Orkish belief. Same thing imo.




The second example is pretty much another generalization that can well be tech that just works otherwise than the Mechanicum expects, or it something that requires belief to affect very specific parameters. I.e. The clanking air pumps DO work as air pumps. They can be identified as such a device by the people who reported on them. They just don't work as a life-support system. The problem with pumping air on a Rok or a not-so-airtight krooza, for instance, would be to prevent that air from escaping into space. Either the Orks know or do something the Mechanicum doesn't, or the Ork gestalt belief can somehow keep the air trapped inside the ship (or around it, or only around the areas of the ship with concentrated Ork populations).

What doesn't happen is that the Orks attaching some random tubes and valves to a cylinder and make-believing it into an effective air filtration device. Also, do the Orks even need to breathe? :-/
Its not a in-universe description. Its what the person who wrote the book states saying that some are pumps and some are just giant squigs used as bellows. How the bellow thing works I have no idea. At any rate, lets be honest that the only way anything works in 40k is by the power of "magic" and I don't mean literal magic when I say this, rather than real life physics.

seven324
12-04-2014, 17:55
These quotes come from Rogue Trader rpf Battlefleet Koronus pg 75-76 .

It seems like Ork belief at work to me rather than Ork science that no one else understands. There is some more stuff but I'm too lazy to search for them.

Those may not even be what acts like a Gellar field in an Ork ship. Most Orks aren't going to know what functions as what, but Glyphs and similar things are a big part of Ork society so to them those are what's keeping the ship safe. If the safe warp travel was because they inspire the crew, why would any Ork ship ever be lost in the warp? Orks aren't the sort to doubt themselves or get scared easily, and it would likely take pretty much all the Orks there to affect the WAAAGH! energy enough to cause problems. We don't know how other races such as the Kroot travel through the warp safely either.

As for the Life Sustainers, salvage teams aren't going to be going in while there are still Orks around. This means there would be no Orks there to make them work if it's due to belief, but they still observe them working. Saying none of them should work doesn't mean much, they're built out of scrap with no real quality or thought put into it - but the Meks who are responsble for building them will know what will work and what doesn't, if it was just a case of belief they wouldn't even have to make something that functions at all. Saying "none of them should work." doesn't necessarily mean they shouldn't work at all, just that they don't seem completely suitable or capable of doing the job properly. We know they actually work as it says they do right there.

SpaceTiger
12-04-2014, 18:08
Those may not even be what acts like a Gellar field in an Ork ship. Most Orks aren't going to know what functions as what, but Glyphs and similar things are a big part of Ork society so to them those are what's keeping the ship safe. If the safe warp travel was because they inspire the crew, why would any Ork ship ever be lost in the warp? Orks aren't the sort to doubt themselves or get scared easily, and it would likely take pretty much all the Orks there to affect the WAAAGH! energy enough to cause problems. We don't know how other races such as the Kroot travel through the warp safely either.Thats not what the quote says at all. Its not an Imperial who wrote it. As for why it not working sometimes? The Warp made it so that their ship was crushed by a warp wave or whatever *shrug* who knows or those particular Orks use another method. Actually where have we ever heard of Orks getting lost in the Warp?



As for the Life Sustainers, salvage teams aren't going to be going in while there are still Orks around. This means there would be no Orks there to make them work if it's due to belief, but they still observe them working. Saying none of them should work doesn't mean much, they're built out of scrap with no real quality or thought put into it - but the Meks who are responsble for building them will know what will work and what doesn't, if it was just a case of belief they wouldn't even have to make something that functions at all. Saying "none of them should work." doesn't necessarily mean they shouldn't work at all, just that they don't seem completely suitable or capable of doing the job properly. We know they actually work as it says they do right there.The "None of them should work" obviously means that by the normal laws of physics or common sense the damn things which are sometimes just giant squigs btw shouldn't work, but they do anyway.

SpaceTiger
12-04-2014, 18:21
Don't misunderstand me, I personally don't care either way. I'm just posting some quotes showing why people have the idea that Ork tech works cause they believe it works.

Another example:

Blood Axes prefer muted colours for their clothing and
gear, with black and green being predominant, along with
numerous patterns and colours of camouflage, both self-made
and looted from enemy forces. While they alone among the
Ork clans use camouflage, the Blood Axes do not understand
why it works, only that it does. This means that a group of
Boyz might have a dizzying array of different camouflage
patterns among them, typically none of which are appropriate
for the environment in which they are fighting. It matters
little, however, because no matter what kind of camouflage
they wear, and no matter what branches, bits of moss, scraps
of metal, and the like, that they strap, pin, nail, or glue to
themselves, the camouflage keeps them hidden as long as they
think it keeps them hidden.

Funny enough, the rpg's have it that Ork weapons are unreliable in the hands of non-orks but become reliable in the hands of Orks.

seven324
12-04-2014, 18:25
Don't misunderstand me, I personally don't care either way. I'm just posting some quotes showing why people have the idea that Ork tech works cause they believe it works.

Another example:


Funny enough, the rpg's have it that Ork weapons are unreliable in the hands of non-orks but become reliable in the hands of Orks.

It sounds like the authors of those books really like the Anzion theory and like many others thinks it's completely true rather than just a theory, which is quite unfortunate. There doesn't seem to be much room to argue against that quote, really - there isn't really a logical explanation for it, it specifically says they stay hidden as long as they think they are.

I suppose it could be said that it's not just the camouflage that's keeping them hidden, but more how they act. " the camouflage keeps them hidden as long as they think it keeps them hidden." could mean that the camouflage does nothing really, as when they think they've been spotted it's going to stop working completely because of what they do after that. When they actually are noticed, they're going to realize they have been - if it worked all the time due to just belief, they'd have no real reason to think they've been spotted.

Weapons becoming reliable in the hands of Orks does make sense though, that isn't really support for the "orks believe it so it's true" thing.

SpaceTiger
12-04-2014, 18:28
It sounds like the authors of those books really like the Anzion theory and like many others thinks it's completely true rather than just a theory, which is quite unfortunate.

Weapons becoming reliable in the hands of Orks does make sense though, that isn't really support for the "orks believe it so it's true" thing.
As I said, I don't care either way.

SpaceTiger
12-04-2014, 19:07
I suppose it could be said that it's not just the camouflage that's keeping them hidden, but more how they act. " the camouflage keeps them hidden as long as they think it keeps them hidden." could mean that the camouflage does nothing really, as when they think they've been spotted it's going to stop working completely because of what they do after that. When they actually are noticed, they're going to realize they have been - if it worked all the time due to just belief, they'd have no real reason to think they've been spotted.
Doesn't work as it mentions that the camouflage simply doesn't match the environment where the Orks are located but it still works perfectly cause they think it works. But doing the stealth act probably helps.

Have another quote:


Ork technology captured in battle and examined by the
Adeptus Mechanicus defies all description and classification.
Guided by each individual Mekboy’s particular, for lack of a
better term, “design vision,” no two pieces of Ork equipment
are alike. They show no signs of standardisation or mass
production, and vary so widely in their construction, design,
and make-up as to make each piece of equipment essentially
unique. The only commonality among Ork technology is
that, as far as any learned Magos of the Priesthood of Mars
can determine, every shoota, trukk, lobba, and suit of mega-
armour seems to be nothing more than a random collection
of scrap parts, gubbins, and metal plates bashed together in
random fashion that simply should not function.
Somehow, their ramshackle vehicles run, their terrifyingly
crude flyers stay in the air despite lacking any kind of
aerodynamic qualities, and their weapons to fire chattering
bursts of slugs or to disgorge gouts of flame, plasma, or other
types of energy, despite seeming nothing more than collections
of flammable junk. For this to work, however, a Mekboy must
have an idea of what it is that he wants to build. He cannot
simply build a basic item that resembles a firearm, and then
dictate what kind of ammunition it fires or what effects it
inflicts on its enemies at a whim. If, for example, a Mekboy
needs to build a plasma pistol, he begins to construct what he
imagines a plasma pistol to be.

Sometime during this process
(assuming that it is not cut short in an explosive fashion),
it occasionally begins to function as such, even if Imperial
scholars and tech-adepts cannot determine how this occurred.
Orks also hold numerous related and seemingly bizarre
beliefs regarding the importance of colour and how it affects
their wargear. Perhaps the most well-known is the widespread
belief, especially among Evil Sunz and members of the Kult
of Speed, that “red onez go fasta.” The fact that this actually
seems to have any bearing on reality continues to confound
the Adeptus Mechanicus. The beliefs and superstitions of the
Orks, and the gestalt phenomena that accompanies them,
added to each Ork’s ability to carry out basic construction
and maintenance of his wargear, is one of the factors that
makes the Greenskins so potent and successful a species,
despite their predisposition toward shortsighted violence.

seven324
12-04-2014, 19:14
Wow. For a long time I've been asking people for actual quotes, no one ever provided any so i assumed it was just based on the Anzion stuff and there wasn't much proof other than that. Thanks for showing those. I still don't like the idea, though.

Lord Damocles
12-04-2014, 20:08
The plasma pistol example doesn't read as though the pistol works because the Mek believes it will (the note that sometimes the weapon will explode illustrating the exact opposite), but that the Mek manages to make a plasma pistol without knowing exactly how. That Orks can do this is long established.

ZenoofElia
12-04-2014, 20:35
The Mekboy quotes do not say that it works because of belief. They say that the Imperium cannot understand how that it works.

The Blood Axes quote does though.

Hendarion
13-04-2014, 06:48
Have another quote:
Somehow, their ramshackle vehicles run, their terrifyingly
crude flyers stay in the air despite lacking any kind of
aerodynamic qualities
They are talking about Thunderhawks, Stormravens and Storm Talons, right?

Badbones777
17-04-2014, 23:08
Aren't there one or two lines somewhere about ork weaponry that fired when used by an ork, but didn't work at all when a human tried firing it?

Yes there is, it was in the 2nd ed Ork Codex - IIRC it was specifically regarding the Shokk attak gun - as far as imperial commentators could discern is shouldn't (by all laws of understood physics) work,
and indeed didn't when they tried it.

TrooperTino
19-04-2014, 13:58
Maybe the "magic" behind some ork tech working when it shouldn't is only during great Waaaaghs!. The power that drives great masses of Orks further and further may even unconsciously influence some of their weapons/tech that broke during the fight but through the Orks accumulated willpower stays functional for the time being. Thats how I take it... under normal conditions the part that suddenly broke would render the weapon useless (outside a great waaaagh!), but if there is enough ork-psi-power around, that power serves like a temporary fix and keeps the weapon functional for a short time(if the part that broke is not too sophisticated).

MasterDecoy
24-04-2014, 03:46
The orks on armageddon believed that yarriks gaze would kill them.

Yarrik them had a laser implanted in his eye so his gaze would be able to kill.

The orks belived some thing and it happened.

Cause or coincidence?

Sent from my GT-I9507 using Tapatalk

Losing Command
24-04-2014, 05:10
Might it also be an idea to take into consideration how humanity's views technology in the grimdark ? When tech-priest think that in order to tighten a screw you have to turn it into a 'cardinal direction' and believe that a mechanism will only work when you put its components together in a basicly religious order and fashion, Ork tek must look even more ramshackle to them then it does to us. Maybe it's not that Orks make their technology work because they believe it must, but that humanity in the grimdark has no understanding how Ork tek should be able or even has right to work and because of that cannot operate it !

Kinda like how, for example, your grandma (no offence intended) does not fully understand how a smartphone works or should be operated, and because of that can be quick to say that the phone does weird things she doesn't want it to, while actually it is doing precisely what she orders it to do whithout her knowing it.

When an Ork Mek builts something from scratch there is probably a lot of improvising involved to get things to work. Then, when a Tech priest finds it, he will try to activate it according to his teachings (that don't actually explain how you activate someting but are more of a string of actions that might not all be needed to actually make something turn on, like how in the GK codex its described how the activation of a tesseract vault now includes all kinds of hand-waving and chanting, which does nothing, leading up to pressing the activation button which is actually the only thing you need to do)
But sprinkling Ork tek with blessed oil, praising its machine spirit and pressing activation buttons in the holy order won't do much when it has a kick-starter ;)

Azulthar
24-04-2014, 18:05
I've kind of accepted that Ork belief has some effect on reality, but it's minor/subtle. It's not that outrageous, considering the setting has psychic powers and such.

jakejackjake
25-04-2014, 00:29
Why are people acting like machines don't actually have a machine spirit in the imperium of 40k?

jakejackjake
25-04-2014, 00:33
Then check again to find claims where inside Ork guns there was found only rubble and still they could fire. Or where Orks weaponry was claimed to not be able to work at all although we know that Ork Hunters are using Ork Weapons and still they work without any Orky believe.
I'm not saying the Ork Waaagh field has no effect, it probably has. But it doesn't make non-functional things functional. This is exaggeration already.

It doesn't matter if you have thousands of instances where ork tech works being used by for different reasons. What matters is if it ever ​doesn't

Theocracity
25-04-2014, 03:12
Why are people acting like machines don't actually have a machine spirit in the imperium of 40k?

...because 'machine spirits' are 40% ignorance and fear, 40% manufactured belief to empower the Mechanicus, and 20% actual temperamental automation.

jakejackjake
25-04-2014, 04:47
It doesn't matter if it's 1%. The other 99% would be irrelevant the 1% would justify mechanicum practices if those practices had an effect.

Hendarion
25-04-2014, 09:30
And we know for sure it actually does have an effect at all other than not not pissing off some plain physical AI manning the machine? Personally I believe this is all just mumbo-jumbo without any effect at all. There is no machine spirit. And the Machine God is the Void Dragon.

MarcoSkoll
25-04-2014, 13:19
Why are people acting like machines don't actually have a machine spirit in the imperium of 40k?
It has ever been implied throughout decades of fluff that most machines in the WH40K universe are no more sentient than those we have today.
A few rare machines, do have some form of sentience (or a simulation of sentience, if we take the Chinese Room argument) - but, whichever way you look at it, there's no solid proof that this sentience is in anyway related to the machine having been granted a "spirit" by a Machine God.

Certainly, there's temperamental automation out there. But does any of it actually have an element beyond the physical? I doubt it, unless it's been possessed by a daemon.

Also, the fluff loses its flavour for me if, in this age of regressed understanding, their superstitions are actually right. It should be remembered that WH40K is actually something of a satirical setting.

Scammel
25-04-2014, 13:43
It has ever been implied throughout decades of fluff that most machines in the WH40K universe are no more sentient than those we have today.
A few rare machines, do have some form of sentience (or a simulation of sentience, if we take the Chinese Room argument) - but, whichever way you look at it, there's no solid proof that this sentience is in anyway related to the machine having been granted a "spirit" by a Machine God.

Certainly, there's temperamental automation out there. But does any of it actually have an element beyond the physical? I doubt it, unless it's been possessed by a daemon.

Also, the fluff loses its flavour for me if, in this age of regressed understanding, their superstitions are actually right. It should be remembered that WH40K is actually something of a satirical setting.

I think you're perhaps forgetting the nature of belief in 40k - with trillions of cultists of hundreds of thousands of worlds regularly worshipping a perceived sentience within the machines, it's inevitable that there's going to be a spark of something within an odd few. It doesn't 'justify' the Cult Mechanicus though, they're still mired in superstition and 'wrong' to worship it in the first instance, but in 40k superstition has a nasty habit of tearing through into realspace every so often.

Theocracity
25-04-2014, 14:25
It doesn't matter if it's 1%. The other 99% would be irrelevant the 1% would justify mechanicum practices if those practices had an effect.

Wait a minute, who said anything about justification? There's great reasons for why the Mechanicus acts like machine spirits exist, as noted earlier in this thread, but that's different from saying that machine spirits actually exist everywhere (which was the implication of the post I responded to).


It has ever been implied throughout decades of fluff that most machines in the WH40K universe are no more sentient than those we have today.
A few rare machines, do have some form of sentience (or a simulation of sentience, if we take the Chinese Room argument) - but, whichever way you look at it, there's no solid proof that this sentience is in anyway related to the machine having been granted a "spirit" by a Machine God.

Certainly, there's temperamental automation out there. But does any of it actually have an element beyond the physical? I doubt it, unless it's been possessed by a daemon.

Also, the fluff loses its flavour for me if, in this age of regressed understanding, their superstitions are actually right. It should be remembered that WH40K is actually something of a satirical setting.

Seconded.

MarcoSkoll
25-04-2014, 17:49
I think you're perhaps forgetting the nature of belief in 40k
That depends how you personally see the nature of belief in WH40K.

I don't see every last belief being capable of tearing through into realspace - to me, it's only the strongest emotions that mirror in the warp. This is why we don't see the Khornate daemon of being annoyed with that clerk who didn't give you a refund, or a Slaaneshi daemon of allowing yourself dessert even if you're supposed to be on a diet.

Machine spirits brought about by belief would be on a reality warping level of power and possessed of only the most intense morality - in most respects, it might as well be treated as if it had been possessed by a daemon. Machines with genuine spirits probably are generally deemed as "tainted by Chaos" and destroyed.

Theocracity
25-04-2014, 19:48
I would think belief-spawned machine spirits would be something that would happen in areas where reality is already thin - and thus be more the purview of the Dark Mechanicus.

Sir_Turalyon
25-04-2014, 23:19
The reasons behind in-universe Imperial myth that Ork technology works only because Orks believe it were already printed in Rogue Trader rulebook :rolleyes: - Ork mekboys deliberately make gear that is prone to breaking down after few weeks, to bring kustomers back for repairs. OTOH the Imperial gear is STC-based, designed to be reliable even in hands of ignorant colonists; Imperial Tech-priests can and do expect their weapons and vehicles to be usable after years (or centuries, or even millenia) of service. Ork gear that was "functional" when recovered from battlefield is already junk when tech-priest tries to examines it, and idea that it stopped working just like that is so alien to Adeptus Mechanicus they'd rather conjecture it never worked in first place. Bonus points if the gun utilises force field or other Ork technology humans never really understood.

Same with the red paint job - since RT supplements red paint was described as obligatory *first* step of kustom job that makes vehicle going faster, before other kustomizations. A red vehicle likely has supercharged engine, lighter chassis or rokkit boosters as well and it's painted red because it has been rebuilt to be faster, not other way around; a vehicle that is not red has not been improved to increase it's speed in any way (or it would get red paint job to make customers believe it's as fast as advertised).

In game, red paint job upgrade works like Honorifica Imperialis from 3.5 edition Guard codex did - any Guardsmen given Honorifica had his stats upgraded to those of Senior Officer because it was rare decoration given to mighty heroes; in universe it did not mean that pining Honorifica to your uniform magically turned you into badass, but that if you got Honorifica, you had to be badass in first place.

jakejackjake
04-05-2014, 20:27
That depends how you personally see the nature of belief in WH40K.

I don't see every last belief being capable of tearing through into realspace - to me, it's only the strongest emotions that mirror in the warp. This is why we don't see the Khornate daemon of being annoyed with that clerk who didn't give you a refund, or a Slaaneshi daemon of allowing yourself dessert even if you're supposed to be on a diet.

Machine spirits brought about by belief would be on a reality warping level of power and possessed of only the most intense morality - in most respects, it might as well be treated as if it had been possessed by a daemon. Machines with genuine spirits probably are generally deemed as "tainted by Chaos" and destroyed. Those demons do exist. They are named Khorne and Slaanesh...



The reasons the red ones go faster is not because they paint the successful ones red. Or it could be and it's a good way to go about making it reasonable in the real world but there is absolutely no reason to believe that.

MarcoSkoll
05-05-2014, 10:52
Those demons do exist. They are named Khorne and Slaanesh...
Jokes about the characterisation of these gods in some of the fluff aside, Khorne is not the god of being slightly peeved and Slaanesh is not the god of treating yourself once in a while.

The Chaos gods are made from much rawer, purer emotions than that.

Hindle
13-05-2014, 22:46
I like to think Orks have a primal mechanical understanding, and are actually quite good at creating a working piece of equipment. Its all rushed however because making stuff is boring, and fighting is a lot more exciting. Also why there isnt any standardisation in the orks, very little parts are manufactured, most of ork engineering is more akin to an interesting episode of scrapheap challenge.

Orks believe blue is good luck, any deff skullz players that can confirm this?

bound for glory
14-05-2014, 15:08
About 15 years ago when I was still a yoof, I had the great pleasure on going on an afternoon safari in a willies jeep from the 1950's which was still in perfect running order. The highlight of the trip was careening down a ditch so fast and hard that some beers will spilled and the front axle of the jeep fell out of its socket. Repair time? About 5 minutes for the boys to lift the jeep onto its side (was that light) and literally push the axle and other offending parts back into place, and stop for another beer because its hot in Africa. We drove off with no problem...

This is exactly how ork technology works, its basic to the extreme, basic and rugged. Not even by human standards, rugged for beings which can compete in brute strength with genetically engineered super humans. So maybe regular humans can't fire ork weapons because they aren't strong enough to pull the triggers, or turn the steering wheel and so on. Maybe the few working pieces they do find are some that just happen to have a better firing mechanism because the mek was bored when he made it or something.

This exact same phenomenon in our own world right now is why the AK 47 is the most common assault rifle in the world despite it being very old and outclassed by fancier more expensive guns, but you can still swim through a swamp with an AK on your back, come out the other end and fire off your cheap bullets.
let me tell you something. i'm a vet of the recent nonsense in afghanistan, and the ak is not a "outclassed" weapon. it does the job very well and will do so long after we are turned to dust...

Argastes
16-05-2014, 15:13
Just an interesting thing to note, the "it works because Orks believe it will" theory first appeared in the fluff (as the speculation of a magos biologis tech-priest) in the Gorkamorka era when the visual style of Ork equipment in the art and models was transitioning to a much more ramshackle, scrap-metal appearance. Up until the end of 2nd Edition, Ork gear was "weird" looking, and prone to having lots of exposed riveting and weird gizmos like crank handles and valves sticking off of it, but it didn't necessarily have that rough-edged junkyard appearance that it took on in Gorkamorka and then 3rd Edition onwards. Back then, Ork technology was described as comparable in sophistication to Imperial tech in many ways (e.g. they understood laser and plasma weapons, and their versions worked just as well as the Imperial ones) and much more sophisticated in some ways (e.g. their teleportation and force field technology). In fact their teleporters and force field tech was even better than that of the Eldar. I don't think the Eldar have ever been big on teleportation, and I guess they've also always preferred holo-fields and such to actual force fields, but still it tells you something.

Hendarion
17-05-2014, 06:19
The Eldar have and do use teleportation. Warp Spiders. It's just that it is quite dangerous for them to use it. Orks on the other hand don't have much issues with the warp - if that's how their teleportation works. And yes, Craftworlders aren't big fan's of personal force fields. Dark Eldar with Shadow Fields on the other hand... But yea, Orks do have their shining moments for sure.

Lord Zarkov
17-05-2014, 08:42
The Eldar have and do use teleportation. Warp Spiders. It's just that it is quite dangerous for them to use it. Orks on the other hand don't have much issues with the warp - if that's how their teleportation works. And yes, Craftworlders aren't big fan's of personal force fields. Dark Eldar with Shadow Fields on the other hand... But yea, Orks do have their shining moments for sure.

Craftworlders still have a few personal force fields - Autarchs all have Force Shields (although they are somewhat bulky), and Dire Avenger Exarchs have a force field that protects their whole squad.
Not to mention Rune Armour, although that's more psychic than technological (and still rather bulky).


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Argastes
17-05-2014, 18:06
Right, I know they use both, they just don't seem to be HEAVY users of either. My point was that when the old fluff said Ork teleporter and force field technology is superior to even the Eldar, we should take it with the caveat that perhaps Eldar technology in these fields isn't so developed because they have other, different, technologies that they prefer to use for parallel purposes. But still, it's impressive that the 'crude' Orks outperform the 'advanced' Eldar in those areas.

But again, that was old (2nd Edition) background, and the newer Ork stuff seems a bit different. For one thing, that was back in the day when the main method of interstellar transport by Orks was teleporting onto asteroids, space hulks, etc. and setting up a force field bubble to contain a breathable atmosphere. Orks still use hulks to get around but they also seem to have their own purpose-built starships, which wasn't mentioned back in 2nd Edition.