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The Emperor
14-03-2014, 23:36
As we've seen, the names of Spyrer suits first introduced in the Necromunda game would go on to become words in the Tau language, implying a link. Some people believe that it means that it's the Tau who're building the suits, but I have a few problems with that.

1) Do we know how long Spyrer suits have been available? The Tau Empire's only a few thousand years old, so it might be that the use of those suits predates the appearance of advanced Tau technology.
2) The Spyrer suits are totally unlike anything the Tau currently produce. Why don't they have their own Yeld suit, at least, as that's a suit which would fit in with their style of warfare? Why're the other three so heavily focused on close combat? Why're these suits the only ones which upgrade themselves over time?
3) If they made the suits, then how'd they get them all the way out to Necromunda? They're all the way out on the eastern edge of the Ultima Segmentum while Necromunda's in the heart of the Segmentum Solar, so how could those suits have spread so far? Maybe through Imperial traders, but that far?!?

So could it be possible that, rather than the Tau developing those suits, that both the technology of the Spyrer suits as well as of their own battlesuits came from a third source? The procurement of technology from outside sources would certainly explain the meteoric rise of the Tau, either as technology gifted to them or something which they reverse engineered. And if this outside source is affecting their technological advancement, then it could also be affecting their language, hence the introduction of words to their language which correspond to the names of the Spyrer suits. Or could Tau battlesuit technology be a result of reverse-engineering Spyrer suits?

So what do you folks think? Did the Tau manufacture the Spyrer suits and somehow distribute them throughout the galaxy, are the Spyrer suits and Tau battlesuit technology the product of some other third party which had an influence on Tau development (Either aliens or STC technology), or did Tau technology spring from the reverse-engineering of Spyrer suits?

Felwether
15-03-2014, 00:10
I'd say it's pretty much impossible that the Tau build the Spyrers' rigs - the technology involved is far beyond anything they''re currently capable of. Plus, as you mentioned, the distance between Necromunda and the Tau Empire is massive.

As to where and by whom the suits are actually produced, they could be extremely expensive pieces of Dark Age tech or even be produced by some other alien race.

aim
15-03-2014, 01:09
I wouldn't say they are 'far' beyond the Taus current tech, as for an in-game explanation, I have none.

A meta explanation however, writers at some point decided that it would be cool to hint at a link, didn't think into it too hard with regards to the rest of the Tau history and thus didn't relise that we internet folk would find some discrepencies.

The Emperor
15-03-2014, 02:13
There're some elements which could be said to be far beyond. For instance, I've seen no hint that Tau battlesuits are self-sustaining or self-repairing like Spyrer suits, nor have they demonstrated any ability to improve their abilities. Like their PDF rules say, "They work by increasing the energy feed into weapon systems and making them more powerful, improving cybernetic enhancements to make the wearer stronger or faster, thickening armour cells to increase their protection, and so on." A Crisis Suit is a Crisis suit forever. It always has the same capabilities, and if it gets damaged it stays damaged until a technician comes around with tools and replacement parts to fix it. That's a far cry from a suit which repairs itself and which improves its capabilities over time. The suits are even able to produce food for their wearers. All of that indicates superior technological ability.

I wonder, have there been any instances of Eldar using technology that wasn't based on wraithbone? Because the Spyrers remind me a lot of Aspect Warriors, and if the Eldar are behind the rise of the Tau, as Xenology suggests, then maybe they're also behind their rapid technological growth, and for some reason also developed the Spyrer suits which then came into the hands of human nobles? Favoring wraithbone based technology doesn't necessarily mean that they're incapable of producing other kinds of technological innovations, after all.

S_A_T_S
15-03-2014, 02:28
Where are the Spyrer suit names related to Tau anything? I've seen nothing that relates the two (but then, I also don't buy eBooks or massively overpriced 'dataslates').

If I had to venture an opinion on both situations (linked to Tau/not linked to Tau):

Not linked: Hunting Rigs are based on some Rogue Trader groups discovered cache of nanite technology they have developed into mini-Forge world/moon hidden from AdMech by selling only to the elite aristos who can control information about it and the authorities to prevent knowledge getting to the AdMech.

Linked: Jokaero. Perfectly possible that Tau have met elements of Jokaero culture and enticed some to join the Greater Good. I can see the Tau restricting the self-developing nature of the suits to prevent individuality in Crisis teams. It would not be good for the team or Tau society if one suit is just better/strong/faster than another in the same group - there would be jealousy, desire, egos and pride. The Imperium, on the other hand, has all those things and thrives on them, and I can see Rogue Traders or aristo families paying large sums to Jokaero groups to forge them the best Hunting Rigs (in utmost secrecy, of course, so Ordo Xenos doesn't get wind). The shared culture of the Jokaero would lead to similar names and design elements creeping into both sets of suits.

Kakapo42
15-03-2014, 03:00
I myself think that the Spyrer suits are at least partially of Tau origin, but not completely made by them. My thinking is, the Tau provide a basic form of battlesuit, which gets sold off to Imperial traders at an inflated price, and then it has other components, some Imperial-made and some not, added onto it before reaching the houses on Necromunda.

As to whether or not the Tau could make a full Spyrer suit, I'd say they definitely could, but don't for practical reasons. Sure, having a battlesuit that self-repairs and manufactures food and becomes more powerful over time is great, but I'd imagine it'd be extremely expensive and resource-intensive to produce for very little gain over current models of battlesuit. Sort of a bit like why the YF-23 and SU-47 were never made into full-production fighter jets.

The Emperor
15-03-2014, 04:20
Where are the Spyrer suit names related to Tau anything? I've seen nothing that relates the two (but then, I also don't buy eBooks or massively overpriced 'dataslates').

The connection's existed since the original Codex: Tau.

189240

On page 57 they have a listing of Tau words with their translations, and the following words appear on that list:

J'kaara - Mirror
Mal'caor - Spider
Or'es - Powerful
Y'eldi - Air caste name for a particularly gifted pilot (Lit. Winged One)

The link is pretty obvious there, given that the Spyrers are called Jakara, Malcadon, Orrus, and Yeld, and the definitions correspond to the defining characteristic of each Spyrer (The Jakara uses a Mirror Shield, the Malcadon's gear imitates spiders, the Orrus is based around brute force, and the Yeld has wings).

Kakapo42
15-03-2014, 04:47
There's also a short background piece where an Adeptus Mechanicus genator mentions the Spyrer suits being of Tau origin.

The Emperor
15-03-2014, 04:49
There's also a short background piece where an Adeptus Mechanicus genator mentions the Spyrer suits being of Tau origin.

Really? What book and page is this in? I'd love to read it for myself.

Kakapo42
15-03-2014, 05:08
Really? What book and page is this in? I'd love to read it for myself.

Codex: Tau, pg. 63, right after the scenario. It also discusses quirks about Tau evolution and the threat their technology possesses.

The Emperor
15-03-2014, 05:34
D'oh! I can't believe I'd forgotten about that.

Lord Damocles
15-03-2014, 11:16
A more likely explanation of why some Tau words are similar to the names of four varieties of Spyrer rigs is that the Tau words were derived from the suits, and not the other way around.

It makes far more sense for some humans (or whoever else might be the originators of the suits) to have gone hunting on T'au than for the Tau to have created combat rigs featuring technology beyond that which they provide to their own fighting forces (and much of which has no equivalent in known Tau tech) for an enemy faction, which given their sub-light communication speeds grants them no benefit even if they are intended for covert spying.


The Spire Stalker from Dark heresy: Book of Judgement (pg.106) sports suspiciously similar looking wings to the Yeld. Her suit is noted to be Jokaero modified, which might suggest a more sensible source for the rigs.

I've also seen it claimed that the Assault Gauntlets in Rogue Trader: Into the Storm - which appear to be a match for the Orrus' weapons - are listed under 'Archeotech', which would suggest that they are not of Tau origin. I don't have a copy though, so can't check.


EDIT: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?369443-The-Tau-and-Necromunda

Hengist
15-03-2014, 11:16
There're some elements which could be said to be far beyond. For instance, I've seen no hint that Tau battlesuits are self-sustaining or self-repairing like Spyrer suits, nor have they demonstrated any ability to improve their abilities. Like their PDF rules say, "They work by increasing the energy feed into weapon systems and making them more powerful, improving cybernetic enhancements to make the wearer stronger or faster, thickening armour cells to increase their protection, and so on." A Crisis Suit is a Crisis suit forever. It always has the same capabilities, and if it gets damaged it stays damaged until a technician comes around with tools and replacement parts to fix it. That's a far cry from a suit which repairs itself and which improves its capabilities over time. The suits are even able to produce food for their wearers. All of that indicates superior technological ability.

I wonder, have there been any instances of Eldar using technology that wasn't based on wraithbone? Because the Spyrers remind me a lot of Aspect Warriors, and if the Eldar are behind the rise of the Tau, as Xenology suggests, then maybe they're also behind their rapid technological growth, and for some reason also developed the Spyrer suits which then came into the hands of human nobles? Favoring wraithbone based technology doesn't necessarily mean that they're incapable of producing other kinds of technological innovations, after all.
I know little of the Tau's background, but I'd be inclined to think of the deliberate coincidence as an 'easter egg' for the players, rather than something significant in-universe. If I wanted to reconcile the apparent disparity in technology, I'd handwave it with the explanation that the Spyrers' suits are examples of bespoke, high-end Tau tech (and heavily customised over the millennia by their owners) that would be uneconomical to produce and maintain in the large volumes necessary for battlefield use.

A.T.
15-03-2014, 12:10
The technology in the suits bear little resemblence to tau technology - the power field generators are far too small while the molecular disruption blades and energy converters are all imperial/eldar style technology far beyond anything the tau can produce bearing in mind that a simple power sword carried by farsight was an item of wonder to their species.

The rigs have some eldar-like aspects to them such as monofilament wires, and it's not unheard of for pre-crusade humanity to have adapted advanced technology from alien sources - the interex for instance. The third-party explanation is not unreasonable.

The suits likely predate the tau in any event - the technologies are described as 'nearly forgotten' and a few thousand years is not a long time for the imperium.

Kakapo42
15-03-2014, 12:40
The technology in the suits bear little resemblence to tau technology - the power field generators are far too small while the molecular disruption blades and energy converters are all imperial/eldar style technology far beyond anything the tau can produce bearing in mind that a simple power sword carried by farsight was an item of wonder to their species.

I wouldn't be so sure. Remember, the Dawn Blade isn't a normal power sword - it may use the same rules as one, but it's in-universe workings appear to be very different. Furthermore, I wouldn't put it past the Tau to be able to produce some of the more esoteric things like energy converters and whatnot - the only real technology the Tau haven't been able to fully grasp is warp-based technology, and that's because they have no psychic ability.

Finally, while the weaponry may be different to what the Tau normally produce, some of the other systems are very much within their capacity to create. I'm not sure if it's the same in the novel adaptation, but in Firewarrior Tau suits and armour are shown to record their wearer's actions in much the same way as Spyrer suits (Kais's one has to shut down at the end of the first mission because it's onboard memory bank was full). There's a self-repair system that the Tau have started fitting to their vehicles, I imagine it'd be a simple process to miniaturise it down to battlesuit scale.

In the end, I don't particularly like the third-party theory because I'd like to have the Tau able to solve their own problems. The conspiracy theories around where the Ethereals came from are bad enough, at least let them come up with cool new technology on their own. Otherwise I feel it just cheapens the faction.

Idaan
15-03-2014, 13:53
I wonder, have there been any instances of Eldar using technology that wasn't based on wraithbone? Because the Spyrers remind me a lot of Aspect Warriors, and if the Eldar are behind the rise of the Tau, as Xenology suggests, then maybe they're also behind their rapid technological growth, and for some reason also developed the Spyrer suits which then came into the hands of human nobles? Favoring wraithbone based technology doesn't necessarily mean that they're incapable of producing other kinds of technological innovations, after all.

Most of Eldar technology, aside from wraith-constructs and infinity circuits is based on materials other than wraithbone. And the Dark Eldar don't use it at all.

The Emperor
15-03-2014, 14:05
Most of Eldar technology, aside from wraith-constructs and infinity circuits is based on materials other than wraithbone. And the Dark Eldar don't use it at all.

Thanks for the clarification. I'm inclined to think they might have Eldar origin, though, as the only race I've seen in the game which produces units as funky as the Spyrers are Eldar. Hell, on the surface, Spyrers are practically Human Aspect Warriors.

AndrewGPaul
15-03-2014, 17:01
They're made by Squats. :shifty:

cornonthecob
15-03-2014, 17:46
A more likely explanation of why some Tau words are similar to the names of four varieties of Spyrer rigs is that the Tau words were derived from the suits, and not the other way around.

It makes far more sense for some humans (or whoever else might be the originators of the suits) to have gone hunting on T'au than for the Tau to have created combat rigs featuring technology beyond that which they provide to their own fighting forces (and much of which has no equivalent in known Tau tech) for an enemy faction, which given their sub-light communication speeds grants them no benefit even if they are intended for covert spying.


I agree with this, it makes a lot of sense for some Nobles just to throw their progeny to some far flung world to prove themselves if times are tough on their homeworld, after all there can't just be an INFINITE number of gangs to hunt.

AndrewGPaul
15-03-2014, 18:11
On Necromunda? The population is in the trillions. No shortage of underhive scum there, methinks. :)

Chem-Dog
15-03-2014, 18:12
I'd say it's pretty much impossible that the Tau build the Spyrers' rigs - the technology involved is far beyond anything they''re currently capable of.

I've gone into this at great length before, so I'll try to be brief this time.

It could be a relatively innocuous component of Tau technology that makes Spyrer rigs possible, a chip or operating system that is beyond the understanding of the Imperium (the obvious example here would be some form of AI) or it could be that the essential component is unavailable outside of organisations such as the Adeptus Astartes or the Adeptus Mechanicus, something like a mind impulse unit which could be difficult to produce in great numbers using Imperial techniques but easy enough for the Tau to make en masse.
Throw in a demented genius or a group of dedicated privately funded engineers (both of which could represent massive expense above and beyond buying a job-lot of Xenos tech and keeping the purchase private) and you've got a human built war suit powered by Tau Tech. Obviously someone along the line has contact with the Tau and it's that individual who assigns some of the most appropriate Tau Names/Concepts to the different designs, almost like a brand-name - If you're selling Xenos tech built to order (whether it is actually Xenos in origin or not) to the kind of people who will drops billions into your coffers for doing so, it can't hurt to have a brand name to help reinforce the product's authenticity.


Plus, as you mentioned, the distance between Necromunda and the Tau Empire is massive.


In a setting where any number of factions have access to FTL this seems largely irrelevant. You're not likely to get door-to-door Tau traders popping by with their latest merchandise, but the Imperium has a thriving black market and there are plenty of people who will go to the necessary lengths to secure a healthy payday.

Lord Damocles
15-03-2014, 18:19
Finally, while the weaponry may be different to what the Tau normally produce, some of the other systems are very much within their capacity to create. I'm not sure if it's the same in the novel adaptation, but in Firewarrior Tau suits and armour are shown to record their wearer's actions in much the same way as Spyrer suits (Kais's one has to shut down at the end of the first mission because it's onboard memory bank was full). There's a self-repair system that the Tau have started fitting to their vehicles, I imagine it'd be a simple process to miniaturise it down to battlesuit scale.
The problem that the suits being of Tau origin runs into is that it requires the Tau to have had technology beyond what they currently possess at some undefined (but presumably fairly distant) point in their past, which for some inexplicable reason they've never actually used, and instead have given to their enemy for no obvious gain.

Even the Spyrer rig technology which bears some similarity to Tau tech (eg. the Yeld camouflage) is only superficially similar and works on different principles (the Yeld wings actually changing colour, rather than the generation of a stealth field in that case).


That the Tau have surveillance equipment proves nothing: Astartes power armour also records the wearer's actions - and they're not made by the Tau.
Genetor Secundus Santiago's report in the 3rd ed. Codex: Tau never actually confirmed whether Spyrer rigs send the information they record anywhere. He simply poses the question as to whether they do.

A.T.
15-03-2014, 18:43
It could be a relatively innocuous component of Tau technology that makes Spyrer rigs possible, a chip or operating system that is beyond the understanding of the ImperiumThe opposite tends to be true - the tau have been noted as being unable to reverse engineer more advanced elements of IoM technology while the imperium, when it has been of a mind to, has been able to reconstruct tau technology and even miniaturize it (deathwatch masking screens for instance are tau stealth generators crammed, complete with power source, into an innoculous 1lb box)

It's always worth remembering that the IoM is, under all the superstition and forgotten knowledge, an absurdly technologically advanced civilization, or rather the distant descendents of one. They are entirely happy to send a man into battle carrying a primative sawn off shotgun, a crude knife sharpened to a mono-molecular edge, and a small piece of jewelry containing a gravitic energy generator that can reflect and convert incomming kinetic energy capable of cracking open battle tanks into a flash of outgoing light.

Beyond that the suits are too old, key elements of the technology is unknown to the tau, and nothing used by the suits has any obvious connection to tau systems: they have monofilament wires, disruption blades, bolt-weapons, chainblades, energy converters, laser weapons, cameleoline, mechandendrites - nothing even remotely tau-like

Hengist
16-03-2014, 10:41
Though I wouldn't really want to make anything of it, I'm starting to think that the Spyrer suits have some faintly Necron-ish design elements too...

Lord Zarkov
16-03-2014, 19:35
The opposite tends to be true - the tau have been noted as being unable to reverse engineer more advanced elements of IoM technology while the imperium, when it has been of a mind to, has been able to reconstruct tau technology and even miniaturize it (deathwatch masking screens for instance are tau stealth generators crammed, complete with power source, into an innoculous 1lb box)


Tau have been able to reverse-engineer some degree of Imperial Tech. The sort of warp-skimming thing they did was based of imperfectly reverse engineering an Imperial Warp Drive.

It's possible that if, as LI postulates, the Tau words came from imperials in suits playing in Tau space that it might not only have inspired the Tau words, but perhaps their love of battle suits in the first place. Maybe the first prototype battlesuits (and perhaps even Tau carapace) was reverse engineered from captured Spyrer rigs...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Lord Zarkov
16-03-2014, 19:39
Perhaps if the words came from the suits rather than the other way around, they might even be the original inspiration in universe for the Tau's battlesuit love, perhaps the first prototypes and maybe even components of Tau armour was reverse engineered from captured rigs....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

A.T.
16-03-2014, 22:20
Tau have been able to reverse-engineer some degree of Imperial Tech. The sort of warp-skimming thing they did was based of imperfectly reverse engineering an Imperial Warp Drive.I was under the impression that tau warp drives were based off an alien ship found on the innermost moon of the tau's home system (from the old tau book).

The only mention of warp engines in the new book is on page 15 where the earth caste find the technology of an Imperial warp drive "utterly unfathomable".

corps
16-03-2014, 22:55
I have the same issue with the Tau link. Curiously i don't remenber a link from the Necromunda lore. Homwever they are still mentioned Off-world as their source but not of Tau origine. I think they tried to reconect the story and were trying to make people forget about it. Both because Necromunda is not supported anymore and maybe because they tought it was a follish idea.

The Emperor
16-03-2014, 23:03
I have the same issue with the Tau link. Curiously i don't remenber a link from the Necromunda lore.

That's probably because the Spyrers were introduced to the setting years before they created the Tau.


I think they tried to reconect the story and were trying to make people forget about it. Both because Necromunda is not supported anymore and maybe because they tought it was a follish idea.

I don't think they've retconned it, as they've continued to use those Tau words which sound similarly to the Spyrer suit names. It's just one of those links that they don't talk about so much anymore. Although I am leaning more towards the idea that the Tau as the creators of the Spyrer suits doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Still, there's still a connection and it'd be nice if GW were to explore that connection more fully over time.

AndrewGPaul
17-03-2014, 00:50
I doubt they will. It's one of those story hooks left for the audience to run with. It'd make a good campaign hook for a Dark Heresy or Rogue Trader campaign, for example.

corps
17-03-2014, 00:57
I think it s just left to dust until no one remenber. If you are not a veteran Necromunda means probably nothing. True newcomer mays be really into fluff but they will have to look for it. GW won't left the clue again. What bother me the most is that Syprer seem much more older and look like they have the suit long before the Tau could give them the technology. Plus Necromunda itself is very far away from the tau empire and while the lone tau explorer hypothesis may be possible, trade is very unlikely to have happen. The nobility of Necromunda could have travel in the Tau empire but such open display of alien technlogies would have seal there doom. Don't forget that Kal Jericho mother is an ordo xenos inquisitor. While she can be tolerating some contacts as methode of doing her job, i don't think she would have tolerate such display of alien technology.

DoombringerATT
17-03-2014, 02:47
Henry Zou's 2009 novel Emperor's Mercy thickens the plot a bit.

Inquisitor Barq wears a green armored rig that, from the description, resembles an Orrus rig.


Inquisitor Barq, ever the eccentric, was clad in wargear of a sort Roth had never seen before. It was, in a way, typical of the Ordo Xenos. Barq was suited in an olive-drab bodyglove, but from the abdomen up he was shod in a hulking armoured rig. His torso, shoulders and arms flexed with thick, cabled plating. The pugnacious outline was reinforced with sledgehammer fists and piston banks along both arms. Multiple heavy-calibre barrels arrayed in racks of eight lined the back of each armoured fist. Despite its armament, it was the milky green of the enamel and the oddly organic curves of Barq’s rig that caught Roth’s attention.

“Xenos-tech?” said Roth as he scaled the ladder.

Barq laughed breezily. “Not quite. I procured this suit from a pompous house of a particular upper-tier hive.”

“Would it be prudent of me not to ask you which noble house this was?”

Barq winked. “It would be for the best. I had suspicions that they may have had limited dealings with the xenos tau — but benign enough for me to let it slide. They were very grateful and gifted me this marvellous suit.”

Later in the novel, Barq comes under heavy fire and the tau connection is mentioned again, along with what resembles a description of tau shield generators.


Barq’s force generators kicked in, throwing up a minor bubble of anti-gravitational force. It blunted the pike’s force with a syrupy envelope of friction. [...]

Barq did not pause to savour victory over his fallen foe. A squad of the Ghasts, a bristling wall of vibro-pikes and lasguns, were storming down a narrow stair-street to his front. More were emerging from the surrounding streets and tenements, the blood of Barq’s company skidding off their humming weapons like water off a hot surface. A beam of las punched into the force field, pushing it to its limits, sending kinetic ripples across the air. Residual heat scorched a neat little hole in the enamel of his armour. Tau-tech was good, but it was not indestructible. The adrenaline and temple-hammering panic of closing death impelled him into action.

I think the connection is pretty solid.

How the tau managed to get their tech all the way to Necromunda is unclear, but also unimportant. Rogue Traders have been dealing with tau since the Damocles Gulf Crusade, and tau have been trading their tech with other races (to include the mercantile Demiurg and Blood Axe Orks) for longer still.

Another possibility is of a long-range tau exploratory fleet making contact with local merchants. Tau have been making far flung expeditions deep into Imperial territory for a long time.

According to ATT's timeline (http://www.advancedtautactica.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=20900), the earliest recorded contact between humans and one such expedition was ~397.M41, when Zygmunt Molotch and his mercenaries engage a tau hunter cadre on Zenta Malhyde (presumably in or near the Scarus Sector) [Ravenor, pgs. 13, 16]. One of Molotch's mercenaries stole a Pulse Rifle, so it's not unlikely that other technology might have fallen into human hands elsewhere.

Since then, tau were known to have been supplying Eastern Fringe human colonies with technology and weapons long before the Imperium caught wind of it and started the Damocles Gulf Crusade.

corps
17-03-2014, 03:04
With the Demiurg sure. With the BLood Axe? Considering how much the Kroot and the Tau hates the ork i doubt it. I need sources. The Blood Axe have conection with the empire of man true but with the Tau?

DoombringerATT
17-03-2014, 03:13
Mercenary Orks were employed by Commander Brightsword in Gav Thorpe's Kill Team. Kage and his companions get into a bar brawl with them and narrowly escape thanks to some Kroot.

They were among a large army of xenos auxiliaries getting ready to invade Sarcassa.

The Tau Codex (3rd Edition) also mentions on pg. 51 that tau have been spotted fighting alongside many factions.


These Tau mercenaries have fought alongside Kroot (unsurprisingly), Tarellians, human renegades, Eldar, the accursed Traitor Legions, and even Orks.

Given how long the tau have been in contact with the Orks, is it really that big of a leap in logic that some might have been employed as mercenaries, or vice versa?

corps
17-03-2014, 13:21
That s the Kroot and that s an old edition. In the second and third codex this was remove as well as the nice guy willing to work with everyone archetype for the Tau. It has been remove ever since. Plus Commander Brightsword ovar created the farsight enclaves for the sole purpose of fighting orks. Plus wich Commander Brightsword are we talking about, there was several of them? Remenber that GT wrote the novel when it s was at their first incarnatioon. Quoting that is like writing a novel now on the Bretonian army when they still have canon.

DoombringerATT
17-03-2014, 13:33
Just because a particular piece of background isn't repeated from Codex to Codex doesn't mean it has been ret-conned. Nothing in it has been proven incorrect, only expanded upon in later material.

And according to Kill Team, the Commander Brightsword that was assassinated in 996.M41 was the original, forcefully separated from Farsight's cadres prior to him embarking on the post-Damocles expedition. According to the novel, O'Shovah and O'Var had an emotional split, conducted the ta'lissera, and Brightsword never took part in the campaign into the Damocles Gulf.

The Brightswords in the Farsight Enclaves Supplement are successive generations of the original Brightsword's children and disciples, and we can presume from this that the original Brightsword spent some time in cryo like Shadowsun, remaining loyal to the Empire but always under suspicion of maintaining ties with the Enclaves.

Poseidal
17-03-2014, 13:35
I don't like the link with Tau.

Aesthetically, they don't fit the Tau theme - on top of this, they use technology the Tau don't use and haven't mastered well (Laser for example), and they seem much more 'efficient' than Tau armour, in terms of how bulky they look compared with Battlesuits or even Firewarrior armour.

I think the suits are basically beyond Tau level, so I would associate them with DAOT technology, or Eldar inspiration. Actually, why not both? It's not too unlikely that old humanity traded with Eldar and developed technology in similar fields to them, such as Laser, Melta and Plasma; the Imperial versions resemble the Eldar implementations more than Tau ones for Melta and Plasma. While manufacturing would differ, they could break one down and find 'this is how Melta works' and make functionally similar components that will at least somewhat resemble the original.

DoombringerATT
17-03-2014, 13:40
Given Inquisitor Barq's response of "Not quite," it's probable that the suits incorporate technology from a variety of Xenos and human sources.

It could be just the armor's material composition that is (believed to be) of tau origin.

jtrowell
17-03-2014, 16:14
I have another theory : time travel

I could imagine some Tau ship using the warp somewhen in the future (or maybe a Rogue Trader with Tau passengers) getting into a warp storm, and reemerging near Necromunda thousands of years earlier.

Not wantind to attrack undue attention from the xenophobic Imperium, they kept a low profile and some of their advanced tech got used on necromunda.

jtrowell
17-03-2014, 16:15
And for bonus points, this doesn't prevent the necromunda suits from still being the inspiration for the later Tau ones, for a nice temporal closed loop. :D

Theocracity
17-03-2014, 16:40
I have another theory : time travel

I could imagine some Tau ship using the warp somewhen in the future (or maybe a Rogue Trader with Tau passengers) getting into a warp storm, and reemerging near Necromunda thousands of years earlier.

Not wantind to attrack undue attention from the xenophobic Imperium, they kept a low profile and some of their advanced tech got used on necromunda.

Heh, I had the same thought. It's probably about as close of an answer as we'll get to a way of explaining it beyond 'an old reference that wasn't thought through to its logical conclusion by internet fluff nerds' ;).

Chem-Dog
17-03-2014, 20:12
The opposite tends to be true - the tau have been noted as being unable to reverse engineer more advanced elements of IoM technology while the imperium, when it has been of a mind to, has been able to reconstruct tau technology and even miniaturize it (deathwatch masking screens for instance are tau stealth generators crammed, complete with power source, into an innoculous 1lb box)

It's always worth remembering that the IoM is, under all the superstition and forgotten knowledge, an absurdly technologically advanced civilization, or rather the distant descendents of one. They are entirely happy to send a man into battle carrying a primative sawn off shotgun, a crude knife sharpened to a mono-molecular edge, and a small piece of jewelry containing a gravitic energy generator that can reflect and convert incomming kinetic energy capable of cracking open battle tanks into a flash of outgoing light.

Beyond that the suits are too old, key elements of the technology is unknown to the tau, and nothing used by the suits has any obvious connection to tau systems: they have monofilament wires, disruption blades, bolt-weapons, chainblades, energy converters, laser weapons, cameleoline, mechandendrites - nothing even remotely tau-like

Ok, maybe not the meta-entity that is the Imperium of Man, with all the cracks, divisions, power blocs and rivalries papered over, but some rich, fairly well connected indolent nobles who, with all of their resources and favours bought for astronomical fortunes they still wouldn't be worth a brass cog to the Adeptus Mechanicus and are thus unlikely to be able to lay hands on that kind of material (or materiel) from the proper channels. And if we're talking about the decadent elite, there may be added cache for them in using xenos tech.
Alternatively, buying black market keeps it off of the books (The Mechanicum never deletes anything), which might be enough reason in and of itself, if the rigs are or were intended for something more sinister than blood sports/rites of passage for the social elite. An Army of Spyrers would be an incredibly dangerous weapon....if you were the power-hungry ruler of a pretty significant planet....

The Emperor
23-03-2014, 17:00
I wanted to add two comments to this:

1) It appears that I was wrong about Tau not having the technology for their suits to effect self-repairs. I was reading Damocles and it turns out that Shadowsun's suit was repairing itself. So there's a capability which I believe the Tau didn't have which the Spyrer suits have, and now it turns out that they do have that capability.

2) How advantageous to the Tau's efforts would it be to sell suits to Imperial nobility which recorded their every action? Now imagine if those nobles were engaged in illicit actions which the Imperium frowned upon and would very quickly get them on the wrong end of a firing squad if the Imperium learned of those activities. If those activities were committed while they were wearing their Spyrer rigs, then they were recorded by the suit. Now imagine the theory of those suits transmitting data to the Tau is true. Well, wouldn't that sweeten the pie when a Tau diplomat turns up and says "Come join the Tau Empire. Oh, and by the way, if you don't then we'll leak this footage to the Imperium and they'll execute you." That could be a mighty powerful incentive for the leadership of a world to decide that the Tau'Va isn't such a bad thing after all.

Kakapo42
23-03-2014, 20:22
2) How advantageous to the Tau's efforts would it be to sell suits to Imperial nobility which recorded their every action? Now imagine if those nobles were engaged in illicit actions which the Imperium frowned upon and would very quickly get them on the wrong end of a firing squad if the Imperium learned of those activities. If those activities were committed while they were wearing their Spyrer rigs, then they were recorded by the suit. Now imagine the theory of those suits transmitting data to the Tau is true. Well, wouldn't that sweeten the pie when a Tau diplomat turns up and says "Come join the Tau Empire. Oh, and by the way, if you don't then we'll leak this footage to the Imperium and they'll execute you." That could be a mighty powerful incentive for the leadership of a world to decide that the Tau'Va isn't such a bad thing after all.

Not to mention the military intelligence value if the pulse bursts start flying. By mounting expeditions into the depths of the hive AND spending plenty of time in the upper spires, nobles wearing rigs that transmit data back to the Tau could effectively map out the entire hive, conducting invaluable reconnaissance work for the Tau without even realising it.

MajorWesJanson
24-03-2014, 18:36
Not to mention the military intelligence value if the pulse bursts start flying. By mounting expeditions into the depths of the hive AND spending plenty of time in the upper spires, nobles wearing rigs that transmit data back to the Tau could effectively map out the entire hive, conducting invaluable reconnaissance work for the Tau without even realising it.

And imagine remote override ability. Tau arrive, the noble decides to stand against them in their nice Spryer suit, suddenly it locks up and they become either hostages or start attacking their own troops.

The Emperor
25-03-2014, 02:28
Or maybe they have some mind control capability over their wearer? That seems to be a technology which Tau have access to. It was certainly implied with those helmets they gave the Vespid leaders, for instance. After all, if you can control the leaders then you can control the people. Maybe the same is true, here? Going back to the new anthology Damocles, there was an implication that the Tau had implanted something in an Inquisitor to mind control him (I skimmed through that part, though, so I can't say for certain). If the use of Spyrer suits spreads all the way to the upper echelons of planetary government, maybe the suits implement some kind of mind control over the wearer, convincing them to hand control of the planet over to the Tau?

dram
25-03-2014, 08:57
I think in Black Leviathan, the third Damocles novella, a noble is wearing Tau armour that could possibly be a Spyrer suit.