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The Emperor
16-03-2014, 03:50
Concerning the new Crimson Slaughter background: I haven't read through the whole thing, but has anyone found any hint about which Primarch they're descended from? The only one which I think can officially be ruled out is Lion El'Jonson, as there's no hint they were ever counted among the Unforgiven, and their interactions with the Dark Angels didn't seem to hint at that. And is it possible that they're a Chapter derived from Traitor geneseed, like the theorized origins of the Blood Ravens as being descended from Magnus the Red?

LotusCorgi
16-03-2014, 10:02
Anyway, I haven't read through the whole thing, but has anyone found any hint about which Primarch they're descended from? The only one which I think can officially be ruled out is Lion El'Jonson, as there's no hint they were ever counted among the Unforgiven, and their interactions with the Dark Angels didn't seem to hint at that. And is it possible that they're a Chapter derived from Traitor geneseed, like the theorized origins of the Blood Ravens as being descended from Magnus the Red?

Perhaps they share roots with the unforgiven and that is why the DA have such a hard on for them....nice twist!

The Emperor
16-03-2014, 10:10
Perhaps they share roots with the unforgiven and that is why the DA have such a hard on for them....nice twist!

Nah, it doesn't fit the background. They didn't start to cover up their history until after an encounter with the Dark Angels which went bad, one involving their hunt for the Fallen. If they were Unforgiven then they would've known what the Dark Angels were on about and helped them instead of getting in their way. Not to mention that they apparently got a reprimand from their parent Chapter for how they acted towards the Dark Angels and Blood Angels, so it seems that both the Blood Angels and Dark Angels can be excluded as the Legions they derived from. So can the Space Wolves, as only the Wolf Brothers descended from them, and that turned out badly. That latter part also shoots my theory about their being descended from a Chaos Legion to hell, so that just leaves the following:

Imperial Fists
Iron Hands
Raven Guard
Salamanders
Ultramarines
White Scars

With their obsession with the Codex Astartes, maybe they're descended from the Ultramarines? An entire Chapter of Guilliman's kids turning to Chaos would be pretty messed up.

corps
16-03-2014, 12:16
It s not unheard off either. Considering the number of chapter that are from utramarines gene seed it s quite common that a lot of traitor chapter or from them. That a whole chapter came traitor is less frequent that a a compagny or a squad but again not unheard off.


according to the lexicanum:

- tiger claws
- Astral claws geneseed unknown
- fire claws
-flame falcon
-relictors
- son of malice
- skull taker

Unfortunately each time their gene seed is not said. But still they are example of entire chapter gone wrong.

Everto
16-03-2014, 12:33
I thought Relictors were a DA successor, or did I just imagine that??

Morrslieb
16-03-2014, 13:11
The Relictors are a Renegade Space Marine Chapter, originally known as the Fire Claws. They are believed to have been created from Ultramarines and Dark Angels gene-seed and were one of the Astartes Praeses Chapters, created to guard the Eye of Terror.
Even if they were a successor chapter for DA, I don't think they were part of the Unforgiven due to their dual loyality (same as techmarines).
Ultramarines are most likely candidates for being CS parent chapter as their gene-seed s highly regarded as one of the most stable and thus often used when founding new chapters.

ObiWayneKenobi
16-03-2014, 14:13
Given they had a penchant of following the Codex Astartes by the letter for a while, and their parent chapter reprimanded them for going before the Dark Angels in a battle, I'm going to guess Ultramarines, since they're also the most commonly used geneseed. Imperial Fists can be ruled out since in Dark Vengeance a captured member spits acid at the Dark Angels' chaplain, and Imperial Fists don't have the Betcher's Gland.

So Ultramarines are the most likely choice. They aren't black-skinned so that rules out Salamanders, Raven Guard has extremely few successors, Space Wolves have none, Dark Angels is out for obvious reasons (in Crimson Dawn, Captain Gabriel of the Deathwing outright insults them and calls them renegades, which would never happen if they were a successor), Blood Angels are out due to them not having the Thirst.

Of course if they were part of the Cursed Founding, then it's just as likely they were created using traitor geneseed (Night Lords seems like it might be a good candidate, due to their reputation for brutality and the fact everybody else disliked them), but I think the story is more tragic if they weren't.

MajorWesJanson
16-03-2014, 16:55
Just a note, but the black skin on Salamanders is due to their geneseed reacting to the sun of Nocturne. It also ties into the nocturnian people- a non Nocturnian Aspirant has a similar reaction, but his skin does not turn fully black like the other salamanders. So they aren't necessarily ruled out.

Everto
16-03-2014, 17:46
Just a note, but the black skin on Salamanders is due to their geneseed reacting to the sun of Nocturne. It also ties into the nocturnian people- a non Nocturnian Aspirant has a similar reaction, but his skin does not turn fully black like the other salamanders. So they aren't necessarily ruled out.


I remember reading ding that there was no know Salamanders successors, can't remember where I read it though.

jareddm3
16-03-2014, 17:55
ObyWayne, I think you meant the Dark Founding. The Cursed Founding was the 21st, the Dark Founding was the 13th. It's the 21st that has all the rumors of traitor/chimeric geneseed. The 13th has no such rumors. And even still, the only reason it hints at the Dark Founding is because their oldest records date back to M36. M36 had nine foundings, if not more. The Crimson Sabres could be part of any one of them.

Personally, I'm also going with Ultramarines. I see nothing about them that would distinguish them as anything unusual from a geneseed perspective.

Zion
16-03-2014, 19:55
Imperial Fists can be ruled out since in Dark Vengeance a captured member spits acid at the Dark Angels' chaplain, and Imperial Fists don't have the Betcher's Gland.

Actually by that point they were using captured Geneseed, traitor marines from where-ever and geneseed made by Bile so it's possible that it wasn't one of the former-Crimson Sabres who did the spitting there.

I wonder how quickly the haunting sets in once you join up with the Crimson Slaughter....and if it continues if you split off to go elsewhere.


I remember reading ding that there was no know Salamanders successors, can't remember where I read it though.

6th Ed C:SM I believe.

corps
16-03-2014, 22:18
The blood angel have a successor chapter that differ from them by not having both the black rage and the red thirst : The Lamenters had a bad luck but not the same curse. So it s not entirely 100% that a sucessor chapter will have the same aspects that his parent chapter.

Plus they are not the red scorpions and a lot of traitor chapter and legions use whatever gene seed they can. Honsu has Imperial Fist gene seed and culture of the Iron warrior. He is more Iron Warior than Imperial Fist.

The gene seed alone doesn't make you a menber of a chapter.

jareddm3
16-03-2014, 23:21
The blood angel have a successor chapter that differ from them by not having both the black rage and the red thirst : The Lamenters had a bad luck but not the same curse. So it s not entirely 100% that a sucessor chapter will have the same aspects that his parent chapter.

Partially incorrect, I'm afraid. Despite the Lamenter's best efforts, the Red Thirst did eventually resurface among their numbers by M41. In addition to their horrible luck, of course.

corps
17-03-2014, 01:04
No, that was rewritten recently after FW wrote the Badab campaign. before that it was just bad luck. But okay i give you the point but i have another example. The mortifactors are successor chapter of the Ultramarine and yet their culture couldn't be more different. They are mystic with a passion for the dead. Uriel Ventris when he met them wondered if they really were a successor chapter because of so much differences.

My point is the same the gene seed alone don't make a chapter. If chapter X has the gene seed of Xprime but is trained by Z it will be a combination of both. And that s don't take into acount their philosophies, their views on the empire, on the Emperor, if they are a nomadic chapter recruiting when and where it s convenient or if they have specific world with a specific culture.

jareddm3
17-03-2014, 01:51
I was never arguing against your point, in fact I strongly agree with it. I was only pointing out that your example wasn't rock solid. As for it being recent, I'll always consider FW top of the lore food-chain so I saw no problem with stating it.

Nazguire
17-03-2014, 12:47
Actually by that point they were using captured Geneseed, traitor marines from where-ever and geneseed made by Bile so it's possible that it wasn't one of the former-Crimson Sabres who did the spitting there.

I wonder how quickly the haunting sets in once you join up with the Crimson Slaughter....and if it continues if you split off to go elsewhere.



6th Ed C:SM I believe.


Or if the haunting happens at all if you're not a former-Crimson Sabre.

Swordsman
18-03-2014, 00:48
With it being limited to loyalists, I feel it's the Ultramarines.

We know it's not:

Dark Angels
Blood Angels
Raven Guard
Salamanders
Space Wolves
Imperial Fists

Leaving us with:

White Scars
Ultramarines
Iron Hands

The Chapter followed the Codex Astartes to the absolute letter, and was chastised by their founders for stepping on the Angel's toes. That's enough to nudge me toward Ultramarines, given our options.

corps
18-03-2014, 01:33
It s strong possibilty yes but not the only one.

I will rule out the Iron Hands at least for the education of the chapter as they don't seem to have developpe any inclination towards cybernetics. Homwever We could have Imperial Fist, White scars gene seed but a training by the Ultramarine or one of their sucessor chapter. What we need to know is who trained them. The space shark for example are of Raven guard gene seed stok but act more like Black Templar.

Swordsman
18-03-2014, 02:26
It s strong possibilty yes but not the only one.

I will rule out the Iron Hands at least for the education of the chapter as they don't seem to have developpe any inclination towards cybernetics. Homwever We could have Imperial Fist, White scars gene seed but a training by the Ultramarine or one of their sucessor chapter. What we need to know is who trained them. The space shark for example are of Raven guard gene seed stok but act more like Black Templar.

They can't be Fists- they can still spit acid.

Scars seem too proud/savage to rebuke their successor for simply standing their ground.

So it seems to be Iron Hands or Ultramarines to me- with Ultramarines being the more obvious pick.

corps
18-03-2014, 03:11
That s not exclude the Wite Scars as the high lord of terra simply could have required the gene seed without informing the White Scars of it. And they could have been trained by another chapter without knowing the origine of their gene seed. The Blood Raven don't know where their gene seed come from but they have been trained by another chapter. I don't refuse to accept that the Ultramarine are a strong possibility, i just say that we shouldn't jump to conclusion. As for the fist i think that again the highlord of terra may have altered it as an experience without telling them. Honsou of the Iron Warior has a mixd gene sed of Imperial Fist and other and can spill acide if remenber. Granted that seem unlikely but the fluff has his load of weird stuff. It's just a speculation.

Plus some chapter are know to have "naturaly" altered gene seed. I say naturaly in the senses that no imperial organisation has altered them.

For simplicity i will reduce the number to three from, in my opinion from the most likely to the most unlikely as possible choice. Ultramarine, White Scars and Iron Hand.

Swordsman
18-03-2014, 03:39
That s not exclude the Wite Scars as the high lord of terra simply could have required the gene seed without informing the White Scars of it.

Have you read the supplement? It says that the Sabres were 'chastised' by their founding Legion for their incident with the Angels aboard the Space Hulk.

The point was that the White Scars don't seem the type - akin to Space Wolves - to slap the hand of a successor for being bold, and holding true to what they believe was right. Whereas Ultramarines tend to be sticklers for protocol, and rules.


As for the fist i think that again the highlord of terra may have altered it as an experience without telling them. Honsou of the Iron Warior has a mixd gene sed of Imperial Fist and other and can spill acide if remenber. Granted that seem unlikely but the fluff has his load of weird stuff. It's just a speculation.

Seems quite the stretch. The Crimson Sabres were never stated as being chimeric- they had one blatant founder, and had connections to them until they swore off their past, and sought to reforge themselves.

Lothlanathorian
18-03-2014, 04:59
They can't be Fists- they can still spit acid.

You missed a post...


Actually by that point they were using captured Geneseed, traitor marines from where-ever and geneseed made by Bile so it's possible that it wasn't one of the former-Crimson Sabres who did the spitting there.

corps
18-03-2014, 12:31
Said legion is not named, so speculation are possible. Well that's your opinion on the Scar. They have rivalries with their sucessor like the Storm Lords. For the wolfes their only successor ended badly. And Zion has a point with Fabius Bile.

Your argument is based on this incident and your perception of te ultramarine. True they are by the book but not all of their successor act the same way. Anyway i think it s time to agree to disagree.

Zion
18-03-2014, 14:44
Or if the haunting happens at all if you're not a former-Crimson Sabre.
From what I read (granted it's only the supplement, but still) it seems to be pretty much 100% regardless of where you come from: if you're in the Crimson Slaughter you're haunted. No distinction to the late-comers is ever made when the book says "The Crimson Slaughter are haunted."

FlashGordon
18-03-2014, 18:08
Are the crimson slaughter obsessed with the Codex Astartes?

Theocracity
18-03-2014, 18:22
Are the crimson slaughter obsessed with the Codex Astartes?

That's not an inherited trait of being an Ultramarine successor.

Israfael
18-03-2014, 19:47
Are the crimson slaughter obsessed with the Codex Astartes?

They were obsessed with perfection overall, and proving themselves as equals.

So they mastered the Codex, and tried to prove just how exceptional they were. They made few friends with their 'holier than thou' attitude, and constant snide commentary on proper adherence to the Codex towards other chapters.

Andy p
18-03-2014, 20:15
They were obsessed with perfection overall, and proving themselves as equals.

So they mastered the Codex, and tried to prove just how exceptional they were. They made few friends with their 'holier than thou' attitude, and constant snide commentary on proper adherence to the Codex towards other chapters.

Sounds very much like some of the people who play tabletop games. :angel:

corps
18-03-2014, 20:33
that s several good point about their obsession and the arrogant answer they get.

Zion
18-03-2014, 21:32
To me that level of perfectionism sounds a lot like a bit of a Slaaneshi influence.

corps
18-03-2014, 21:57
Interesting idea, a Slanesh influence for perfection but you could also say a Nurgle influence a their rigid aproch of the Codex means frozen way. And grand farther Nurgle like when nothing change and decay. I can see Khorne too regarding how they becaume haunted. Strangely the one i don't see is Tzeench which match the fact that follower of Tzeench are the only who can' have veteran of the longue war.

Zion
18-03-2014, 22:23
Thousand Sons come with it built in.

Also a Greater Daemon of Tzeentch was manipulating the chapter for a while to boot.

corps
18-03-2014, 23:06
yeah i have this idea too. Tzeentch doing nothing to manipulat his brother seem so unlikely.

ObiWayneKenobi
19-03-2014, 01:09
Well I still maintain it was Ultramarines, since that seems to fit the criteria:

* Ultramarines would respect other original legions to the point where they could see it as respectful to let the originals get first crack
* Because of the above, they would likely ignore anything out of the ordinary about the Dark Angels (e.g. interrogating somebody outside of protocol) because the Dark Angels are the First Legion, First Among Equals, etc.
* The Crimson Sabres strongly adhered to the Codex Astartes, which would come as second nature if they had Ultramarines genes
* After the Dark Angels incident, the Crimson Sabres followed the codex even more religiously to the point of trolling other chapters with all the things they did that deviated; that alone basically screams Ultramarine genes.

Also, there's just something delicious about an Ultramarine successor falling hard to chaos like that. Pride goeth before the fall, and all that.

As was stated we can likely rule out the following:

* Dark Angels: Obvious reasons
* Blood Angels: No red thirst, BAs were involved in the Schism so they wouldn't have gone ahead of their own parent chapter
* White Scars: Nothing really rules them out but not likely, given that I think if the Sabres were a White Scars successor they would look and act more barbaric before their fall, and also the White Scars don't seem like the type to chastise for them charging ahead.
* Space Wolves: Geneseed can't be used for successors IIRC, also even if it were the Crimson Sabres aren't barbaric/feral enough, no lupus mutation thingie that the Wolves have
* Salamanders: No charcoal skin
* Iron Hands: Not ruled out, but no obsession with cybernetics, no real ties to link up
* Raven Guard: Not entirely ruled out but very few successor chapters, probably 3rd likely due to the Crimson Sabres being "masters of quick-strike warfare", however the Raven Guard don't seem like the type to be sticklers for the Codex Astartes to the point the Crimson Sabres are indicated as being.
* Imperial Fists: Not entirely ruled out other than the aforementioned Marine spitting acid which may or may not be relevant. Likely 2nd candidate besides Ultramarines; the Fists would likely preach about respecting the original legions as much if not more than the Ultras.

The fact that they were admonished by their parent chapter rules out it being a traitor legion.

Lothlanathorian
19-03-2014, 01:35
Salamanders still aren't ruled out. Once again, the charcoal skin is an effect of the gene-seed and radiation of Nocturne's sun interacting.

ObiWayneKenobi
19-03-2014, 01:37
Salamanders still aren't ruled out. Once again, the charcoal skin is an effect of the gene-seed and radiation of Nocturne's sun interacting.

However, Salamanders seem like they wouldn't follow the Codex Astartes that rigidly and also seem like they would be made of stronger stuff to engage in wanton slaughter even with manipulation. Possibly put them as #4 behind Raven Guard.

Lothlanathorian
19-03-2014, 01:48
Either way, there are plenty of Successor Chapters that absolutely nothing like their parent Legion or are divergent enough to not get along with them. So, they could have been admonished by the Salamanders for acting like fools in front of daddy's friends and embarrassing him.

EDIT:
The only ones I'd say were truly ruled out would be the Wolves for obvious reasons and the Dark Angels because we'd know if the Crimson Sabres were Unforgiven and, if they aren't, I doubt the DA care enough about them, then.

Swordsman
19-03-2014, 02:06
Either way, there are plenty of Successor Chapters that absolutely nothing like their parent Legion or are divergent enough to not get along with them. So, they could have been admonished by the Salamanders for acting like fools in front of daddy's friends and embarrassing him.

Aside from the glaring issue of no 'known' in-universe successors for the Salamanders..

The Crimson Sabres were their one and only, and they were able to so easily cut-ties, and hide their origins? Not likely.

Zion
19-03-2014, 02:19
With the CS' speciality of surgical strikes (their favorite post going Renegade seems to draw a Star of Chaos as they move in for the kill) gives some credence to Raven Guard.

Then again successor chapters are all over the place on how they act vs how they're parent acts. Needless to say the answer really doesn't matter -that- much unless you're running the 4th Company Crimson Sabres who tried to go back and rebuild the chapter...

Lothlanathorian
19-03-2014, 07:37
Aside from the glaring issue of no 'known' in-universe successors for the Salamanders...

Totally forgot about that.

ObiWayneKenobi
19-03-2014, 11:29
Aside from the glaring issue of no 'known' in-universe successors for the Salamanders..

The Crimson Sabres were their one and only, and they were able to so easily cut-ties, and hide their origins? Not likely.

I thought there was at least one Salamanders successor, Black Dragons wasn't it? That had some weird scale-like mutation if I remember correctly? Also I think it was always hinted that the Storm Giants were Salamander successors, but they were originally a DIY army so it might have just been because the player liked the 3rd edition Salamander rules (which I think actually was the case).

Ultras are still the most likely IMO, if for no other reason than theirs is the most commonly used geneseed, and they would be the most likely to chastise a successor chapter for going before an OG chapter.

Zion
19-03-2014, 12:10
The 6th Ed C:SM dropped all official ties between the Black Dragons and the Salamanders. Doesn't mean they aren't a successor anymore (plenty of chances for the Ad Mech to use the Geneseed anyways), but the fluff has the Salamanders basically standing alone right now (which dates back to the Heresy where there were so few of them left that they didn't have to split the Legion into chapters).

Lothlanathorian
19-03-2014, 18:28
Weren't the Black Dragons also Cursed Founding? They're the ones with the adamantium coated elbow-swords all Guyver style, yeah?

Easy E
19-03-2014, 18:34
That is correct.

Zion
19-03-2014, 21:53
Weren't the Black Dragons also Cursed Founding? They're the ones with the adamantium coated elbow-swords all Guyver style, yeah?
Yup. Their bones grow out of control on parts of them leading to them having fairly dangerous looking elbow spikes, which they coat in adamantium and use to shiv people.

Black Dragons: the only army to properly weaponize the flying elbow drop.

Lothlanathorian
19-03-2014, 23:18
Black Dragons: the only army to properly weaponize the flying elbow drop.

:yes: :D :yes:

Zion
19-03-2014, 23:32
:yes: :D :yes:

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Lothlanathorian
20-03-2014, 00:25
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