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Meraell
16-03-2014, 15:10
Hi guys,

It's been a while since I wanted to jump into the 40K universe, since there are many, many players over my region, and can't ignore such a good environment (wish it was the same for Fantasy, lol :angel:).

Last week I asked for some advice about DA, I was also interested in a while for Eldar, TAU, SM... Some days ago, before going down to the club, I had a last look to the GW site in a more in depth way, and men, I got in love with CSM miniatures, absolutely love them.

I have no idea about 40K rules, trust me, no idea at all about the game, although I've read here and there articles/tactics about the diff armies, some bat reports and so on, but again, knowing nothing about the game, makes it a bit diff to follow those posts.

To start with, I started buying the Codex, 5 Cultists, 10 normal CSM and 3 Oblits.

I want to come up with a TAC 1500pts list, a balance force, to learn the game mechanics and starting learning the army, don't want to go nuts now and take the cookie cutter list, so is it possible to come up with such build yet able to give a good fight once I start getting the handle? Ofc, won't be playing tournies, just friendly games, but still, I'll be facing hard armies once I learn the rules, so better be ready to fight them!

Would really love to know also diff builds/synergies the book offers, I've read on the internet that atm the CSM army is not good enough with so many TAU, Eldar and so on; this dropped my motivation a bit but won't stop to keep going with the army, as I love the miniatures and the look of the army, which is what really matters :p.

Any information in general terms you want to add, will be more than welcome, very usefull, and much appreciated, thank you very much in advance guys, sorry my poor english, hope you can understand me!

With regards,

M.

LegioDestructor
16-03-2014, 16:17
First of all, welcome to 40k! If you already play Fantasy you should have a good idea of how the game works.

It can be a bit overwhelming to start, but I think you have chosen well with Chaos. You can make a wide variety of armies with the list; a balanced mixed force, or a close-combat army, a firepower-heavy force, or an entire army devoted to one of the Chaos Gods for a great theme. It is one of the older Codex books, so that is why you have read about it being "not good enough" - this is simply people complaining on the internet. Ignore them. Make sure you read the Codex update here (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2940043a_Chaos_Space_Marines_v1.1_JANUARY13.pdf).

Looking through the Codex, what Legion appeals to you? Each has it's own colour scheme and preferred strategy, but they all have access to the same units if you want them. Night Lords are sneaky, Iron Warriors use lots of tanks, Word Bearers use Cultists and Daemons, while Alpha Legion prefer sabotage and misdirection. Black Legion is the "generic Chaos Army" and very average, or vanilla. World Eaters prefer close combat, Death Guard use heavy infantry and short-ranged weapons, Thousand Sons are protected by magic, and Emperor's Children use sonic weapons.

For now, get your troops painted up, grab a rulebook, and play some beginner games with your group. It will help you learn the game, how to play with your army, and you will decide which tactics you prefer, and which units to later add to your force.

Mr Zoat
16-03-2014, 17:59
Chaos doesn't offer many competitive builds. On the other hand, it does offer a reasonable amount of variety, so as long as winning doesn't matter to you you're in the right place. If it does, then the list is Prince w/ Nurgle, armour and Mace, three Baledrakes, MoN Obliterators and Plague Marines.

Don't worry about which Legion appeals to you in fluff, because Games Workshop have assured us that unlike the loyalists, they're never getting rules that represent that.

One of the great things about marines is that because they're all basically the same you can switch to whatever marines Codex you want, and there's loads of them. Try them all out with your friends until you find the one you like best.

IcedCrow
16-03-2014, 18:07
It should be pointed out that chaos has many viable builds provided you dont play in a min/max environment. If you do play in a tourney environment primarily then the above fits pretty well.

Morrslieb
16-03-2014, 18:20
Don't worry about which Legion appeals to you in fluff, because Games Workshop have assured us that unlike the loyalists, they're never getting rules that represent that.

One of the great things about marines is that because they're all basically the same you can switch to whatever marines Codex you want, and there's loads of them. Try them all out with your friends until you find the one you like best.

That's pretty pessimistic opinion considering codex 3.5 had some differences between legions. Besides there's always hope, now more than ever supplements coming in regular basis.
I'd say next step is the first HQ (unless you convert one of regular CSM into one) because you're required to have one. Other than that, more troops never hurts.

Meraell
16-03-2014, 18:22
Cheers a lot for the replies guys!

Not sure yet if I have a favourite legion, more than one seems pretty cool to me, although I'm kinda going the Vanilla way right now, my only goal is settling with a mixed arms/balance list.

Would love some advice on what to start ordering; so far I have 5 cultists, 10 normal CSM and 3 Oblits. Thinking of picking:
-6 bikes as it seems this unit with MoN and a Nurgle bike Lord is a very solid choice.
-More cultists, whats a good size for them, 30-35? Are a couple flamers worth it?
-10 CSM, already have 10, can use them as Vanilla or Plague or whatever, won't paint in a while+can magnetize them to play them in diff ways rather than buying Finecast PM.
-Couple Rhinos.
-1 (I'll add a second one) dragon

That's what I came up with after reading a bit more about the army, again, thank you very much for the replies, still open to your ideas and advice!

Kind regards,

M.

Kegslayer
16-03-2014, 18:34
You need more cultists. Minimum squad size is 10.

As for additions. Chaos lord, bikers, rhinos, heldrakes, new helbrute kit is really nice too.

As for chaos being weak its mainly the internet waac players whining. The player wins the game not the army. If you know what you're doing then chaos can wipe face against anyone

The Emperor
16-03-2014, 18:36
I don't know about optimizing a Chaos list, but if you'd like to get the most bang for your buck, then the Chaos Space Marine Attack Force is a great option.

189319

Buying all that separately would normally run you $255.75, but they're selling it for $205, a $50.75 savings. And if you order from an online vendor which offers 20% off then you're instead looking at $164 for all those miniatures. And the great thing about that box is that you can buy two of it and still get quite a bit of variety. The two Chaos Marine Terminator Lords, for instance, can be built into a Chaos Lord and a Sorcerer. You can build a Forgefiend and a Maulerfiend. You can build Raptors and Warp Talons. The only real duplicates would be the Chaos Marines, Rhino, and Chaos Terminators, and those you can still mix up with different equipment. And on top of which, buying two of those boxes would get you a sizable force points wise for a good deal of savings if you order from those online vendors who give 20% off. I can't give you an exact points value, but I think you may be able to get 1850 points out of two of those boxes. At least 1500 points, easy. And with the money you save, you can then get some of the more optimal choices out there like Heldrake's. Just a thought.

Scammel
16-03-2014, 18:40
I second what The Emperor says. The attack force doesn't contain any actively 'bad' units and contains a good deal of variety.

Dr.Clock
16-03-2014, 19:26
Well... the main 'problem' with that box IMO is that it contains both terminators and raptors. While both are great kits, and cool units, they are not the MOST efficient (as an aside: I DO use Raptors - see below - and I DO use normal terminators in my SM list because I LIKE them).

The best build out of that box - and including the models you already have - is going to be some variant of an MSU list... multiple small units who can arrive by deepstrike, hit something hard, and then likely die the next turn. This is often known as 'termicide' after a unit of suiciding terminators with combo-weapons teleporting in to take out high value armoured targets at point-blank range.

5 Raptors alone are more or less going to have a similar role. A cheap, disposable special weapons unit to either lurk in terrain or deepstrike in. That being said, there're few things more fun that Slaaneshi raptors with an Icon of Excess... I5 and Fnp will make most other marine units quake - and throw a marked Lord or Sorcerer, and it gets even more nutty. Such a unit is decidedly NOT for the faint of heart, and requires significant investment in other assault units to keep that threat level high. As a result, I wouldn't try to build such a deathstar anywhere below 1850 points. It's something to think about for the future, as you get used to playing. Some people like to blast their foes off the table, some like the smash their faces more personal lik - you'll find out soon enough.

Of course, you can also consider converting some or all of those terminators into more Oblits. 2 units of 3 + a termicide unit is actually a pretty cool start to an Iron Warriors list IMO - and the small raptor squad could fit into that theme as well. Both raptors and terminators are also somewhat better for smaller games where their relatively low cost and wealth of options can see them make more of an impact.

Plague marines are great, it's true... one of the best troops in the game. You can't really go wrong with 4x5 of them... but you'll need a minimum of 2 rhinos to threaten midfield. If you can afford the monies, mounting all 4 is ideal.

In terms of finishing off your cultists; 20 is about right - small enough to get cover and not trip over their own feet, but also big enough not to necessarily flee at the first sign of trouble... although in many cases 2x10 might be better in that it's simply a redundancy - you can have one unit die/flee and still have the other one sitting pretty.

Heldrakes are of course 'obligatory' in places where fliers are the norm, and most especially if anyone local fancies themselves a hardcore 'tournament' level list builder (read: internet listing junkie). However, I'd advise against taking more than two, as it could easily turn YOU into 'that guy', and I think that one usually gets more interesting and fun lists by NOT spamming units (outside troops).

A final word of advice for a new Chaos player: choose a God, or at least a Legion, and build a core force around that theme. In my opinion, all of the Gods and Legions can be made to work on the tabletop, with the possible exception of Tzeentch (although you could make a very effective Tzeentch allied list between CSM and Daemons). All this is to say that going for Plague Marines is certainly all well and good (lord knows I've enjoyed the last 15 years of bashing heads with them), but Chaos is big list, and there's plenty of other interesting niches - they just take a little more consideration in list building and on the tabletop.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Mr Zoat
16-03-2014, 19:59
That's pretty pessimistic opinion considering codex 3.5 had some differences between legions. Besides there's always hope, now more than ever supplements coming in regular basis.
It's a nice dream (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9aYrHzEW-w).


Would love some advice on what to start ordering; so far I have 5 cultists, 10 normal CSM and 3 Oblits. Thinking of picking:
-6 bikes as it seems this unit with MoN and a Nurgle bike Lord is a very solid choice.
-More cultists, whats a good size for them, 30-35? Are a couple flamers worth it?
-10 CSM, already have 10, can use them as Vanilla or Plague or whatever, won't paint in a while+can magnetize them to play them in diff ways rather than buying Finecast PM.
-Couple Rhinos.
-1 (I'll add a second one) dragon

CSM bikes are pretty good, compared to what you'll find in other codices. They're just usually not as good as a Helldrake, it's not like they're Warp Talons or anything. Well done for immediately identifying the best god.

Cultist blob size depends on what you're using them for. Minimum size is fine for hiding in reserve and walking on to a home objective near game end. You'll want a bigger squad for crouching around an AA gun, and a bigger one still for meatshield duty. Flamers are usually a reasonable bet.

If you're going Nurgly anyway, there's basically no reason to take CSM over Plague Marines.

Rhinos are a must have, and I'm partial to Havoc Launchers myself.

Great though Helldrakes are, they aren't that good against AV12 fliers. Consider an AA fortification of some kind.

Lord-Gen Bale Chambers
17-03-2014, 01:31
I think you are taking a great approach in choosing an army that is visually appealing to you. Power levels come and go, so it's best to choose what appeals to you. Chaos offers some great modeling opportunities too! I highly reccomend checking out the chaos project logs for inspiration.

While there has been some good advice so far, if you are playing only friendly battles don't feel obligated to play with only the power units. If you like the look of some models, get them! Playing as an underdog may be difficult and discouraging to start, but it will make you a better player in the long run.

If you are looking for some cheap models to get started, look into splitting a dark vengeance set with someone. If that is not an option, it's not hard to find the units on eBay for a very reasonable price. It's probably the best way to get alot of cultists right now. The chosen models are absolutely beautiful and can be useful in games.

Read up on the different legions and warbands in the codec, on lexicanum and any other place you can find fluff. If you don't like any in particular, just make up your own warband. 40k is great in that it's sheer size allows tremendous flexibility in creating your own back story and force.

Good luck on getting started and learning the ropes!

corps
17-03-2014, 02:28
Absolutely the box is a good start. With the Dark Vegeance box you won't need much more. I also advise you to read if possible the Crimson slautgher for inspiration. Before i started painting my loyalist chapter i thought for a year, reading a lot of fluff and historical book. Now i paint a third of it but i have a full fluff behind it. If you jump in 40k don't just do it for the math.

Meraell
17-03-2014, 11:03
Great posts guys, cheers a lot!

Glad to read CSM isn't that bad; WAAC players just throwing **** when their armies isn't anymore point-and-click, heh, happens the same on WHF.

I'm going to pick the new BForce box and probably DV, I'll end up with lots of models I may not use at tournaments, but hey, I'm not a fan of just buying the cookie cutter list's models, also, this will give me a chance to test the units people don't tend to use, which is great in some ways fmpov!

Will be back once I start working on the army, will open a plog to share with you all my progression!

Thank you very, very much ;).

With regards,

Mr Zoat
17-03-2014, 21:30
It isn't WAAC to want units to be roughly worth their points, or at least to be able to do the job they look like they're supposed to. Take CSM Fast Attack: Baledrakes are too good, bikes are okay, Raptors are a little lacking and someone needs to be smacked around the head for Warp Talons. Recognising that doesn't make me WAAC, and neither does wishing they'd thought it through a little better. Or that CSM got Legion rules in the same way that SM got Chapter rules.

Of course, if Nurgle's your thing, don't overlook Forge World (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/The_Horus_Heresy/Legiones_Astartes/Death_Guard).

AmBlam
17-03-2014, 22:32
Learn about the Legions:

Death Guard
World Eaters
Emperor's Children
Thousand Sons

Before making your choice imho.

corps
18-03-2014, 02:26
don't forget the other legion

Iron Warior
Night Lord
Sons Of Horus
Alpha Legion
World Bearer

and of course the renegades chapter and warband. The Lexicanum will provides you a lot of good examples.

Slayer-Fan123
18-03-2014, 02:50
Plague Marines (the best troop choice), Noise Marines, and Cultists for troops, Heldrakes and Spawn/Bikers (I prefer Bikers because special weapons) as fast attack, Termicide for Elites, and then Obliterators for Heavy Support. HQ is Lords outfitted for melee and Black Mace Princes.

Scribe of Khorne
18-03-2014, 03:32
Take a look at the supplements though, and the Belakor data slate. We have a few more options at least these days, that while not world breaking, are at least options.

Meraell
18-03-2014, 04:15
Hey guys, I really much appreciated all the posts, didn't expected that much help, so thank you very much for it, it's being very useful!

Today I went down to the frequent local club and the new Attack Force hasn't arrived yet, will pick it up in the weekend though, I know there are some models which aren't that competitive, but I'm looking forward to end up with a big army, and all the minis are beautiful, will then add the rest next month; bikes, dragons and some bits and bobs, so I can start playing some good 1500pts games ASAP ;).

Again, thanks for all the help.

With regards,

M.

Scribe of Khorne
18-03-2014, 04:51
Yeah, as I am building my 6th (no joke) Chaos army, when I get to the marines side (Daemons, Khorne to start) that box is going to form the core of my CSM for sure. All I would need is a horde of bikers and HOPEFULLY PLEASE KHORNE, some new Berzerker kits by then.

Voss
18-03-2014, 05:01
Sadly, though, as they are the sole plastic kit of the god-specific units, they are least likely to be updated. Though personally I would murder a hundred bunnies and make them into obscenely shaped guitars for some plastic noise marines.