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View Full Version : Fantasy getting unique armies like 40k? Thoughts?



Kingly
18-03-2014, 19:22
Wotcha,

So 40k has released loads of alternate army styles, ala old Fantasy, I'm talking the codex expansions they're getting recently.

Just wondering if you'd like to see them brought back to Fantasy or not?

When I began Empire last year for our @AT09G Plog I read the old Army book and got really excited about an all Flagellant army, only to see the whole concept of different forces had been dropped, gutted.

So just wondering if you'd like to see them brought back? And if so which one's did you miss/Would Like to see?

A complete Temple Guard Lizard man army? All GreatSword Empire force etc.

Thoughts?

Folomo
18-03-2014, 19:41
At first the idea sounded interesting... until the part where alternate army playstiles turned into "spam a unit time and time again". Not sure if a list of only 1 type of unit sound interesting at all. Fighting against it sounds really boring.
I really really hope they dont do this.

Sexiest_hero
18-03-2014, 20:42
Indeed, I was hopeful the expanded thing would be more on the line of patches, GW's guys talked about the Knight expansion and said "When you fave an army of knights you'll most likely lose, then you'll go buy something to deal with them. It's the type of arms race gaming that turned me off to magic, where player skill took a back seat to the most powerful card/unit money could buy. it seems to be working for them so I'm happy GW is making profits. I'm sad at what it took to make those profits though. You can sell a lot og temple guard and great swords in an one unit list it kinda takes the special out of special choices though.

StygianBeach
18-03-2014, 21:01
I thought the 6th ed Skaven Clan armies were great, as well as the Von Carstein army for Vampire counts.

I would love to see versions of these with official releases for 8th.

Vadth
18-03-2014, 21:07
I have not been following what's been going on with 40k. In general how I would feel this towards Fantasy would be base on two things. 1. If the expansive are reasonable price (haha, who am I kidding, this is GW) and 2. How much ... effect GW puts in them. If they are just this special choice is now core and this rare choice is now special shuffle, then screw that. If they say take only 60% of the army and add new units and rules, I would be more incline to be interested. I wouldn't care if they had models or not. I just want new units with new rules, with detail descriptions on what they suppose to look like.

Lord Dan
18-03-2014, 21:10
The response has been fairly divided. Check out my poll on the subject, here: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?391245-Dan-s-Weekly-Poll-3-Warhammer-Supplement-Books

Daniel36
18-03-2014, 21:20
You can just decide to build an army you feel like building and not pay too much attention to the oh so incredibly balanced army books. Honestly, whatever cool theme you have in mind, you're probably handicapping yourself more than you are powergaming, so why not just do that?

People should really play more narrative games. Tournament gaming is so overrated.

But hey, who knows what ninth edition will do for us. Perhaps variant army list building will become an integral part of the game.

tiger g
18-03-2014, 21:20
They have started with some vampire count dataslates

I could see empire with special rules for like a Wissenland army and different troop types by fluff. Dwarf armies by location would be interesting also. You can do it yourself but the perceived main customer by GW needs to be hand feed. Lizardmen could have the southlands dataslate and even a group from the dragon islands. I would see them selling in small amounts so a digital release is possible.

The gorilla in the room is are there enough sales of WFB to justify the time spent my one of the designers to do this.

Sexiest_hero
18-03-2014, 21:46
The data sheets are cool and I'm not talking about tourny play, just some guy showing up against my night lords with three titans. I love narrative games, I love apoc, I wouldn't mind a "Kill the titan" game but to just plop down 3 titans in a normal game out of nowhere. I run tomb kings right now, That's as fluffy as it gets. I don't mind the new fantasy data sheets, but to go as far as an whole army of LM temple guards what choice do I have but P.sun. And I hate tossing 6th spells.

Athelassan
18-03-2014, 22:34
Variant army lists like those in Storm of Chaos, with new units specific to that army? Hell yes.

Variant army lists that just mean "pick the same existing unit over and over again"? No thanks.

Arms races also annoy me in principle, but to be honest I think that's been a thing for the whole of 8th edition and the end of 7th anyway; it's just been at a slightly slower pace than 40K.

Spiney Norman
19-03-2014, 00:57
Wotcha,

So 40k has released loads of alternate army styles, ala old Fantasy, I'm talking the codex expansions they're getting recently.

Just wondering if you'd like to see them brought back to Fantasy or not?

When I began Empire last year for our @AT09G Plog I read the old Army book and got really excited about an all Flagellant army, only to see the whole concept of different forces had been dropped, gutted.

So just wondering if you'd like to see them brought back? And if so which one's did you miss/Would Like to see?

A complete Temple Guard Lizard man army? All GreatSword Empire force etc.

Thoughts?

I hope they don't go down this root for fantasy as it is squeezing the life out of 40k, by allowing everyone to take everyone else's stuff while at the same time ignoring all the usual restrictions of the FOC.

Its pretty clear to me that someone in the board room did some sums and realised they make more money on books and iBook products than they do on models. If you compare the number of books/iBook products that have been put out for 40k in the last couple of months vs the number of actual model kits the results are quite scary. For a company that claims to be a miniature making company they are looking much more like a books about miniature gaming company recently.

Smithpod68
19-03-2014, 01:51
I'd like to see alternate lists such as those in Storm of Chaos. I seem to remember in maybe 6th ed the Appendix lists in some of the books, There was the Artillery Train of Nuln lists,the Vampire counts army that used the Brettonian lance formation,ect.... I thought they were always great for narrative games and not tourney games.

Charistoph
19-03-2014, 02:57
Looking at the title, I was .going to say Fantasy already has more unique armies than 40K.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
19-03-2014, 03:46
People should only eat vanilla ice cream, because it's the only flavour that I like

If you want to do narrative games then nothing's stopping you. If you want to bring whatever you want and just roll dice in your buddy's garage then nothing at all is stopping you, save whatever house rules you guys come up with.

But many of the rest of us like to play Warhammer as a competitive strategy game, and **** like this would ruin that. Spam lists are boring as **** to play, both with and against, and don't add a thing to the hobby. Supplements should add MORE variety to the game, not less.

Kingly
19-03-2014, 07:38
Mmm agree in general, I'd dislike Temple Guard are now Core but Skinks are Rare method.

What has been said about patching rule books sounds good though, making useless units cost wise much more appealing sounds good.

I would like to see a little more variation enter army books now we have weekly releases, reading about the empire in the sigmar trilogy was ace, I say bring back some of those units!

RasputinII
19-03-2014, 08:05
I loved the storm of magic lists.
In general I support this, where the new list adds flavour and some new stuff. But isn't a completely unique thing either. Main ones if love to see is Kislev, Von Carsteins and Cult of Slaanesh. All have rich histories, awesome concepts and unique game play without creating a million new things. Supplement lists should feature a smaller range of units than a full army book and have a specific play style - as opposed to good army books which leave you with lots of choices and variables.

MaliceXR3
19-03-2014, 10:23
Done well (i.e not following the route they've taken with 40k where one can create a frankenstein's monster list with bits of everything with little to no repercussions for doing so) then it could, in theory work (with extra emphasis on "in theory")

jtrowell
19-03-2014, 11:08
From what I see in 40k, they took a good idea, but the way they implemented it was often bad from a balance point of view, and the price have of course been horribly high.

If they made something for Fantasy using the same philosophy, it might look like that :

- a "dragon" army book, allowing you to field an army composed only of a few dragons
- allied forces that could be good in theory, but were the allied detachment points would be outside the normal Core/Special/Rare structure, or maybe even couting as core for your army, with some cases where you might even ally with a variant of your main army (such as a Dark elves army allied with a "Dark elves : cult of slanesh" detachment for exemple). this could allow some combinaisons to field a bigger than usual number of some units, or to bring much more warmachine/monsters/monstruous cavalry that would be available.

Imagine for exemple en Empire army with Ogres allied bringing both 3 units of Demigriffins and 3 Mournfangs units, plus canons from both armies.

There are ways to make a good alliance system, and the basic alliance system from 40k is not too bad (the allied matrix might not be perfect, and the allied detachment should cound in the FoC of the main army, but those are easy to fix), but they keep bringing new sub lists that lift even more restrictions on army building, so instead of fun and fluffies allied armies (like Chaos Space Marines with allied demons, or imperial armies fighting together), you often have things like Eldar and Tau allied with a maximised number of Wraithknights and Riptide (think "giant mechas" or if you prefer, armies of mini-titans)

Wesser
19-03-2014, 11:13
40k is a mess

Between Battle Brothers and a dizzying array of add-on expansions, data slates and what not it is hard to keep track, which is all the more worrying for an all-or-nothing game like 40k is.

Un-comped the game is largely unplayable...


Now I can understand why there'd be people who'll want some of the old favorites like DoW or Kislev back in some form, but do we really need/want to be permanently faced with Slayer/Greatsword/Monster armies where various units get crammed into the core section, a few selections changed and the odd new (model-less) unit is introduced?

Some will say "yes, more choice is good", but at least in my opinion:

1. While there are situations where extreme armies like Slayers only could happen (Storm of Chaos really tried) it is just not a dwarf army anymore. Playing one facet of an army to such extremes will pretty quickly become boring, if not for you, then for your opponent. Extremes forces extreme measures after all, and you may end up forcing your opponent to take specific troops to win (or forcing him to leave out stuff that extreme armies can't deal with). I certainly don't miss the SoC armies. They got boring VERY fast

2. I'll say the same for Greatswords themed armies. Sure it could happen if the Emperor gathered an elite guard for some special mission, but aside from that... Greatswords are (at least in theory) an elite unit. If they were to become grunts then pretty much half the Empire book stops making sense, because the character of a human army is to be average. This is a case of "Play your army, dude". Anyone wanting Greatswords in core so they don't have to pick State Troops (same really applies to choosing all-mounted Empire) should really have picked up Warhammer: Bretonnia or Warriors of Chaos instead

Darnok
19-03-2014, 11:49
Looking at the title, I was .going to say Fantasy already has more unique armies than 40K.

My thoughts exactly. Right now WHF has more "uniqueness" to offer on the army level than 40K ever had.

And I fail to see the NEED for supplements to play "themed armies". A theme should be about converting and painting, and you don't need a new army list for that. Sometimes you have to sacrifice certain strengths of an army for a specific theme, but that is to be expected: you generally can't have your cake and eat it.

Having said that: if done properly, and adding new facets of background and gaming - like, for example, "Sigmars Blood" and "Blood in the Badlands" did very well - I would welcome more WHF supplements.

Xenthick
19-03-2014, 12:14
Something I think that could be interesting, and was already done in 6th (?) ed vampire counts was the various vampire house rules. Something like that could conceivably add alot to each army, a suplement release which would add some rules for different houses of vampires, or clans in skaven etc. Things which modify the stats of the various hero choices and changes which items they can use and which units can be fielded in each army, depending on which sub faction you choose to play. I think it could be very interesting, not terribly difficult to accomplish and would add a lot to the game without inherently breaking it, which can happen with allowing the spam of certain units.

Gorsameth
19-03-2014, 13:32
As other 40k players have already mentioned.

Pray to god they dont go down the same road in Fantasy as they are doing in 40k.

It sounds awesome to get all sorts of new editions but its turned the factions into a convoluted mess. Anyone can take more and more other armies with them, Balance is completely out the window.
Your now able to bring units into normal point games with weapons which remove everything under the large template at no questions asked.

Pray they keep it away from Fantasy.

IcedCrow
19-03-2014, 14:09
To point out - D weapons in 40k are only escalation games or apoc games. If you aren't playing escalation or apoc games, you won't have D weapons in your game other than the Imperial Knights which don't use a template - they are a melee weapon.

And to answer - i think with the six dicing of purple sun, pit of shades, etc being a legit "tactic", these are functionally equivalent to a D wpn. I would love to see some alternative houses/clans/whatever put into fantasy.

theunwantedbeing
19-03-2014, 14:27
Thoughts?

Empire could get the Kislev Variant list back through a supplement easily enough.
I'm sure lots of people would welcome the return of Ice magic and winged lancers and so forth.

Vampires could get back the Sylvanian list which was effectively just the carstein vampires and their mortal subjects (as the lords of the realm are vampires, the inhabitants are mortal).

Erm.....
Nothing else comes to mind except zombie pirates but that was a very silly list.
I'de rather see Sylvanians than that.


As for things like allies.
I would like to see more in the way of allies personally, a bit like how the 40k system works.
With the way 8th edition is built around percentages it would be very difficult for players to abuse it, especially if you limited who can ally sensibly.

Charistoph
19-03-2014, 16:40
Something I think that could be interesting, and was already done in 6th (?) ed vampire counts was the various vampire house rules. Something like that could conceivably add alot to each army, a suplement release which would add some rules for different houses of vampires, or clans in skaven etc. Things which modify the stats of the various hero choices and changes which items they can use and which units can be fielded in each army, depending on which sub faction you choose to play. I think it could be very interesting, not terribly difficult to accomplish and would add a lot to the game without inherently breaking it, which can happen with allowing the spam of certain units.

Agreed with this. You gave up a lot of flexibility to run those lists. Skaven and Lizardmen also had a "back of the book" list that ran a list much different than normal. They weren't always powerful, quite often less powerful, but they were a fun concept.

Kingly
19-03-2014, 16:58
40k is a mess


OT but...

I can understand where you are coming from, from a lot of people that don't really play very much 40K and aren't really involved heavily in 'The scene' all the expansions and extra 'What-not' May seem a little over whelming, but trust me it really isn't.
Competitive play in 40k is competitive play, if you've gone along to a tourni and got trounced by a Taudar list and believe it's the be all and end all, it isn't. Trust me, they all have their weaknesses. It may seem like all the expansions have ruined competitive play but they've actually just evolved the experience for most casual gamers, and evolved the tourni scene in the usual way where top players take the game to it's extremes.
If you want a really nice run down give the 7 hour 40K global cast they recently did a listen and it'll give you a pretty decent insight into the (English) Tourni mind space.

(Wesser I honestly don't want this to go OT so i'll PM if you want to continue?)


Regarding Fantasy I always wanted to do a Nurgle based Beastmen army with Marauders and Ogres to boot, I know you can represent now-a-days but I'd like a cool little list release that would let me allie all the (Prettty useless) units that are part of WoC Beasties and Deamons.


Like has been said, with the Fantasy % system it would be quite hard to abuse, mostly WoC Chariots as core would be my first instinct.


I'd like to see unique things like a no gun powder Empire army, that has access to chariots and out flanking Spear/Swordsmen. Fun themy stuff like that.


Marauder only force where the Marauders actually drop in points (1-2 points)


It wouldn't be too hard would it?

Spiney Norman
19-03-2014, 18:00
To point out - D weapons in 40k are only escalation games or apoc games. If you aren't playing escalation or apoc games, you won't have D weapons in your game other than the Imperial Knights which don't use a template - they are a melee weapon.

And to answer - i think with the six dicing of purple sun, pit of shades, etc being a legit "tactic", these are functionally equivalent to a D wpn. I would love to see some alternative houses/clans/whatever put into fantasy.

This is technically true, I can refuse to play an opponent who wants to use the escalation rules, but in the same way I can refuse to play someone who wants to play using the tau codex or the rules for flyers. When you have to generally ban whole sections of the published rules material to get a fun game it's a good indication that the game is in a very bad place.

And last time I checked the procedure for working out cc damage from strength D is exactly the same as it is when dropping a template.

IcedCrow
19-03-2014, 18:17
I'm not going to get into that debate again (about whether you have to let someone use escalation/apoc or not) because it's pointless. People will use or not use whatever their group allows / disallows. Period.

A D weapon melee attack is not the same as dropping a template. A single D weapon melee attack affects one model. A single D weapon template affects multiple targets. An apoc D weapon template which is what most super heavies in 40k use affects many times more models.

Charistoph
19-03-2014, 20:06
OT but...

I seriously couldn't read anything else beyond this. Not everyone uses the black background here, just an FYI.

Colonel Mayhem
20-03-2014, 00:04
Please no....seeing what it has done to 40k I would hate the same happened to fantasy.

badguyshaveallthefun
24-03-2014, 19:40
I initially was all for it, but after reading through others posts I'm actually more inclined to think the other way.

40k has been absolutely ruined for me with the current edition. This is simply because they're released too many expansions to keep track of, most of which are digital only, and they've practically allowed everyone to field everything and anything they want, regardless of what they play. I haven't played 40k in months, and I don't intend to start playing again anytime soon.

I do not want to see fantasy go this way. I think there is already enough diversity, and if someone doesn't like having to take state troops to get greatswords, then they shouldn't be playing empire.

That said, I do miss vampire bloodlines, and I would love to field daemons, warriors, and beastmen together (that doesn't require me playing at least a 3000 point game, with all kinds of wonky rules to make it fit together, like in the Tamurkan book) These issues have more to do with the way the new army books have been written though; there's no reason why they couldn't have continued in that awesome tradition, except in their delusions they thought that it would make them more money by allowing all vampires access to all bloodline powers, and breaking up the army books and adding more tacked on units to make individual ones playable (often with no models for them).

I'm rambling now.

leopard
24-03-2014, 22:34
There is a lot you could do for small armies, indeed this could be the ideal way to bring 'allies' into the game, you do not get to bring an actual allied army, but you can bring an allied 'mercenary detachment' from a download info pack - think a mini army book, a specified character and a small selection of units. Also allows current models to be used in different ways - e.g. Empire crossbows as Tiliean mercenaries in a Bretonnian list. Or mercenary Bretonnians say built around questing knights but perhaps without the blessing or some such.

Allows perhaps a level of control, as well as from GWs perspective to add a unit that doesn't sell so well normally with a tweaked rule or two in a new format and see if it shifts.

If they used some sense they could almost use such downloads for a level of play testing for special rules and to support new models between army book releases.

Andy p
25-03-2014, 11:49
Has anyone ever played the Medieval 2: Total war mod...Call of Warhammer?

Over half the playable factions in that game are provinces of the empire, but they did some very interesting things to differentiate them. Nuln for example could get a unit of Hochland Long Rifles, rather than single engineers, and detachments of 3 steam tanks.

Admittedly, this has more to do with how Medieval 2 is coded than anything else, but I saw a unit of warrior priests for Altdorf, which I thought was really interesting and suitable.

In any case I wouldn't mind seeing something similar as either part of a future army book, (unlikely), or as the series of supplements that have already been discussed endlessly. But as others have said if it's just going to be the same parade of repeated unit allowed to be core or something similar, then it's better if they don't bother.

stortotta
26-03-2014, 02:59
I seriously couldn't read anything else beyond this. Not everyone uses the black background here, just an FYI.

Hehe, I Think he knew that, posting it in White, as he didn't want the discussion to go OT... :P If you mark the text, i magically appears!!

Charistoph
26-03-2014, 16:31
Hehe, I Think he knew that, posting it in White, as he didn't want the discussion to go OT... :P If you mark the text, i magically appears!!

Not always easy to do that on the phone...