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View Full Version : Do you think Spyrers should be part of 40k, and in what manner?



The Emperor
19-03-2014, 04:40
So over on the background forum we've been having a discussion on the origin of the Spyrer suits, if they're made by the Tau, if they're DAoT suits which influenced the Tau in some way, made by some other alien race associated with the Tau, etc. Whatever their origins, I think it'd be pretty neat to see them become a regular part of the standard 40k universe. For those who're unaware, these are the various Spyrer Hunters from Necromunda.

ORRUS
189490

Big and tough with a built-in force field and wrist-mounted bolt launchers.

JAKARA
189491

Light armor, agile, with a monomolecular sword and a mirror shield which absorbs the energy of a shot it deflects and redirects it back.

MALCADON
189492

Fast, can shoot webbing to pin opponents, scale walls, and have sharp claws.

YELD
189493

Flight, chameleonic wings, laser blaster.

SPYRER PATRIARCH
189494

SPYRER MATRIARCH
189495

So would you like to see them in-game? And which faction would you like to see them aligned with?

The way I see it, they wouldn't make sense as a permanent part of any army. There are two possibilities, though.

1) Codex: Planetary Defense Force - A small minicodex along the lines of Codex: Inquisition. The Patriarch and Matriarch can be two HQ choices and each of the four Spyrer types can come in squads of their kind (I.E. 5 Jakara, 5 Malcadon's, etc.), most likely Elites and Fast Attack. Maybe include some PDF troops as Troops and you'd be set. Their primary alliance matrix would be Imperial aligned.
2) Codex: Tau Human Auxiliaries - Like above, except that instead of Imperial PDF troops and vehicles we'd instead see Gue'vesa in action. Humans in Carapace Armor and wielding Pulse Rifle's and Pulse Carbines among other things. They'd be Battle Brothers with the Tau Empire, appearing as a free allied detachment, while likely being Desperate Allies with Imperial forces.

So what do you folks think?

Brother Haephestus
19-03-2014, 05:13
While I wouldn't mind them per se, my personal belief is that there is more than enough on the table as is. Now, if you were to do a scenario where they joined forces with the local garrison, that could be interesting, but I don't believe there's a call for an army slate.

As to tech, I don't believe there's anything here that is specifically Tau in origin. Much of it I would put on Eldar and Space Marines. I imagine it more as the cheaper and more delicate versions of the battlefield gear. These weren't designed to consider drops from orbit, etc., just drops from two or thee levels up.

The Emperor
19-03-2014, 05:38
I imagine it more as the cheaper and more delicate versions of the battlefield gear. These weren't designed to consider drops from orbit, etc., just drops from two or thee levels up.

I don't quite get what you mean here. Spyrer rigs seem no more fragile for combat use than any other piece of wargear in 40k. They're probably more survivable, actually, since they have the ability to self-repair. And Power Armor isn't exactly designed to be dropped from orbit. That's what Drop Pods are for, as an armored Space Marine dropped from a high enough roof will leave a bloody smear on the ground, nevermind falling from orbit.

Kakapo42
19-03-2014, 05:41
Actually, between Codex: Assassins in the past and the Imperial Knights and Inquisition codexes in the present I could definitely see a dedicated publication for only Spryers. I don't think I'd want to see it though, since I'm not sure I trust GW to produce new models for them that I like (they got lucky on the Knight).

Brother Haephestus
19-03-2014, 05:45
I don't quite get what you mean here. Spyrer rigs seem no more fragile for combat use than any other piece of wargear in 40k. They're probably more survivable, actually, since they have the ability to self-repair. And Power Armor isn't exactly designed to be dropped from orbit. That's what Drop Pods are for, as an armored Space Marine dropped from a high enough roof will leave a bloody smear on the ground, nevermind falling from orbit.

I love literal thinkers.

Okay, the drop from orbit doesn't mean without drop pods. I don't believe, however, that it is a very comfortable ride regardless.

The rest - equipment that you and I use on a regular basis is not 'ruggedized' for military use. The same iPad that I am writing on now would be about two to three times as thick, metal case, rubberized keypads ... (I know - used things like this for my own 22 years of service.)

Even on a very bad day I don't believe too many Spyrers are going to want to toe-to-toe with a Lord of Skulls, whereas a unit of marines just thinks of it as a light snack to carry over until the real meal is served.

The Emperor
19-03-2014, 05:47
Actually, between Codex: Assassins in the past and the Imperial Knights and Inquisition codexes in the present I could definitely see a dedicated publication for only Spryers. I don't think I'd want to see it though, since I'm not sure I trust GW to produce new models for them that I like (they got lucky on the Knight).

Well, assuming they make good models, what would you like out of it? Would you like it as a book with just Spyrers? Or an Imperial aligned codex with a couple PDF forces added, to represent the forces of the planetary governor? Or would you like some Gue'vesa thrown in and base it around a Tau Human Auxiliary force with guys like this in the list?

189496

189497


I love literal thinkers.

Okay, the drop from orbit doesn't mean without drop pods. I don't believe, however, that it is a very comfortable ride regardless.

The rest - equipment that you and I use on a regular basis is not 'ruggedized' for military use. The same iPad that I am writing on now would be about two to three times as thick, metal case, rubberized keypads ... (I know - used things like this for my own 22 years of service.)

I'm pretty sure riding in a Drop Pod is an uncomfortable experience for anybody, regardless of what armor they're wearing. I don't expect to see any Spyrer's riding around in a Drop Pod, though. And I still don't see why you think they're not "ruggedized" for military use. They're designed so they can operate independently in the Underhive without support in regular combat situations. They self-repair, they make their own food, produce their own ammo, etc. If anything, they seem better prepared for military use than your typical suit of Power Armor, Aspect Armor, etc., as those pieces of wargear require maintenance and upkeep. If pieces of armor or the power cell for the power armor gets blown off they need to be replaced. If ammo runs out you need a resupply. The soldier inside the armor, whether it's power armor to flak armor, needs food to keep going. The Spyrer rig, however, takes care of all of that.


Even on a very bad day I don't believe too many Spyrers are going to want to toe-to-toe with a Lord of Skulls, whereas a unit of marines just thinks of it as a light snack to carry over until the real meal is served.

Err... huh? :eyebrows: I'm fairly sure there isn't a unit of infantry without the tools to harm a Lord of Skulls that would be too happy about going toe-to-toe with it, whether it's a squad of Space Marines with nothing but Krak Grenades which can't possibly hurt it, Imperial Guardsmen, Howling Banshees, or Spyrers. I'm not sure what kind of point you're trying to make here.

Kakapo42
19-03-2014, 06:17
Well, assuming they make good models, what would you like out of it? Would you like it as a book with just Spyrers? Or an Imperial aligned codex with a couple PDF forces added, to represent the forces of the planetary governor? Or would you like some Gue'vesa thrown in and base it around a Tau Human Auxiliary force with guys like this in the list?

I think I'd like either just Spyrers on their own, with rules for making detachments out of them a la Inquisitors and Imperial Knights, or have them bundled in with a 'Denzins of the Hive' codex with Arbites units.

The Emperor
19-03-2014, 06:24
I think I'd like either just Spyrers on their own, with rules for making detachments out of them a la Inquisitors and Imperial Knights, or have them bundled in with a 'Denzins of the Hive' codex with Arbites units.

Damn, good point about the Arbitrators. That wouldn't be a bad combination at all.

Kind of a funny coincidence, too, as I've got a bunch of Spyrers and Arbitrators sitting on my desk right now (the latter I'm going to use as Inquisitorial Acolytes).

Bugaboo
19-03-2014, 07:12
Your best bet would be to use the models as some sort of counts as alliance of Space Marines with Tau, seeing as SM are battle bros with Tau. This is likely as good as you are going to get.

What we as modellers, fans. old fluff enthusiasts =/= what makes GW money.

Or, if that doesn't cut it, homebrew your own rules. I don't want to sound like a pessimist, but I just don't see GW supporting these guys in any significant manner, especially after they pretty much went an acted like Necromunda and other cool specialist games never existed.

Tiu
19-03-2014, 10:06
I dunno, Spyrers really dont make much sense on the battlefield. They are nobles that get a kick out of hunting and killing those weaker than themselves. That means they are *extremely* niche (possibly less than a hundred on a large hiveworld), not inclined to take on foes tougher than themselves, and probably alrewady offworld if something bad happens. You might get away with a themed scenario of a cornered noble donning his armour to get away, but thats about it, I feel.

AndrewGPaul
19-03-2014, 10:12
Spyrer teams, as presented now, don't make sense as battlefield units. Any military service most Spyrers will see will be as Munitorum staff officers, carefully positioned miles (or light-years) from the actual fighting. They deliberately pick on the underhive as "safe" targets, who are generally outclassed.

Having said that, I was of much the same opinion regarding Inquisitorial warbands and Assassins, so my opinion isn't shared by the designers. :) (in fact, now that I think about it, I'm off to see if I can crowbar one into an Inquisitor's retinue; counts-as Arco-flagellant or Daemonhost?)

If I were to include them in 40k at all, it'd be as a Dataslate. Make them Desperate Allies with everyone. They're not so much allied with any force, but they've turned up because there's an interesting fight going on. Stats-wise, they should be better than Veteran Guardsmen and not as good as Assassins; WS/BS 5, S/T 4, I5, A2, W1, Ld 10. Save 3+ Orrus)/4+ (Malcadon, Yeld)/5++ (Jakara). Feel No Pain, and perhaps some sort of combat drugs/enhancements rule. Either a random chart per type to roll on at the start of the game or something that can kick in during the game based on number of kills.

The weapons would need beefing up, I think; In Necromunda they weren't that strong - slightly improved lasgun for the Yeld and a storm bolter for the Orrus.

Oh, and get rid of the Matriarch and Patriarch models, because they're rotten. :)

edit: I think Tiu is off by several orders of magnitude in his estimate of numbers. :) Necromunda has thousands of hives, each with massive populations (the only estimate ever given was a billion in the upper hab levels of a single hive). That suggests to me a population in the hundreds of billions or a trillion in the upper Spyres alone. Thousands of Spyrers in Hive Primus alone wouldn't seem unreasonable to me, and if it's a tradition across the whole planet as opposed to one concentrated in Hive Primus alone, millions on Necromunda.

I think there's room for them in 40k, but as the games stand at the moment, keep them in Necromunda and the fiction.

The Emperor
19-03-2014, 10:23
I dunno, Spyrers really dont make much sense on the battlefield. They are nobles that get a kick out of hunting and killing those weaker than themselves. That means they are *extremely* niche (possibly less than a hundred on a large hiveworld), not inclined to take on foes tougher than themselves, and probably alrewady offworld if something bad happens. You might get away with a themed scenario of a cornered noble donning his armour to get away, but thats about it, I feel.

That's how they were introduced, but if the suits are made by the Tau, then we could be looking at a situation similar to that of the helmets owned by the Vespid leaders, using the technology as an inducement to get people to join their side, and then that technology is used to fight alongside them or serve their purposes.

Not to mention that what we saw in Necromunda was likely just a small facet of what these nobles do, and probably unique to the conditions of Necromunda. Who's to say that, when their world is under attack, that those nobles don't don their hunter rigs and fight in them? Necromunda never spoke to that one way or the other. Or how those suits are used on other worlds. Maybe other worlds regularly use them in war? We just don't see that in Necromunda because Necromunda is hardly ever invaded. I certainly can't think of an instance where it was under enemy attack. But if it were to be invaded, I don't think the nobles would sit it out, or count on plain carapace armor, a refractor field, and a laspistol to protect them. Rather, they'd probably gather together in their hunter rigs and fight alongside the PDF and any other Imperial forces present.

And if they're working for the Tau, then the Tau have plenty of reason to employ them in war, as they serve as walking propaganda tools. Human worlds going up against Gue'vesa supported by units of nobles in hunting rigs not only experience what it's like to be the enemies of the Tau, but they also get to witness firsthand the technology and power which will be at their fingertips if they join forces with the Tau. When you see your PDF ripped to shreds by squads of Malcadon's, Jakara's, Yeld's, and Orrus's, then having access to that technology for yourself starts looking pretty appealing.

And I doubt they're that niche. When you have a world with a population number in the hundreds of billions, it wouldn't be a stretch to say that there're enough nobles to fit enough Spyrer suits and outnumber, say, the number of Aspect Warriors in an invading Eldar warhost. And note once again how common those suits are among the nobility of Necromunda, and how far away Necromunda is from Tau space. If the suits are being built by the Tau, then who knows how much more common those suits are amongst Imperial nobility towards the Eastern Fringe?

Krucifus
19-03-2014, 10:37
I never knew Dr Octopus made it into the 40K universe :o

Samsonov
19-03-2014, 10:51
A single spyer would make a nice general for a PDF force. Maybe even use them as sergeants in squads, if you were playing a small enough game.

Bugaboo
19-03-2014, 11:06
I never knew Dr Octopus made it into the 40K universe :o

The Matriarch and Patriarch are laughably bad. The worst part, is those models were released when they redid Necromunda, and much like many of the specialist games figures of that particular time, they had hardly any of the effort put in when those games were first released. You should check out the redone Goliaths, Orlocks (sp?0 and what was apparently the redone Van Saar, which I am still unsure of the true origins of. The Van Saar looked like conversions, but I got mixed views verdicts on them actually being available for purchase.

zoggin-eck
19-03-2014, 11:21
Yuck, I never liked the whole "the Tau made them" idea at all. Putting them into 40k just takes away the whole point and charm of them, too. Spyrers were rich kids who managed to terrify even the hardest Necromundan scum. Among the monsters and absurdity of 40k battlefields that's lost. I'd probably just proxy a few as assassins or something if I really wanted to use the models.


The Matriarch and Patriarch are laughably bad.

I dunno, I wish I bought a few of them to sell of now!

Actually, I kind of prefer the re-made scavvies to the originals (except the scaly, I admit). The re-made redemptionists were the worst, though. Really nice, solid models replaced with spindly nonsense.

OuroborosTriumphant
19-03-2014, 11:41
I like them being part of the universe, I don't feel they'd slot in well with the tabletop game and I wouldn't want their fluff changed to force them in.

I'd rather see a new edition of necromunda with new shiny plastic kits for each gang!

T10
19-03-2014, 11:49
I don't see the Tau connection at all. Spyrer suits have more in common with specialized exotic power armour than anything else.

-T10

The Emperor
19-03-2014, 11:52
I don't see the Tau connection at all. Spyrer suits have more in common with specialized exotic power armour than anything else.

-T10

The Tau connection was indicated pretty heavily in the first Codex: Tau, and possibly the subsequently iterations, although I don't remember offhand if that's the case. Go to this thread to see numerous references:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?391412-Meaning-of-Spyrer-suits-to-Tau-Empire-history

Tiu
19-03-2014, 12:01
My point about the numbers was that while there are definitely millions of nobles on a hive world, Ive always seen Spyrers as something really uncommon... Not every noble would be a Spyrer, just like today, not everyone enjoys skydiving. And while theyd definitely prefer their custom armour to some guard issue flak, I just dont see them staying on a world at war. They just seem like theyd work like bullies: Tough for those weaker than them, which is pretty everyone under normal circumstances, but if theres a chaos incursion? Tyranid hivefleet? Ork Waagh? Theyd be lightyears away on their private yachts before most of the population even knew about the situation.

The Emperor
19-03-2014, 12:14
Maybe if things go horribly, horribly wrong, but for guys who put on hunting rigs and cut themselves off from creature comforts for the thrill of the hunt? We're not talking about 17th century effete French aristocrats, here. We're talking about a hyper violent nobility along the lines of the Imperial Knights. People who enjoy and relish life and death battles. Just as the nobles who pilot Imperial Knights look for any opportunity for combat, so would they. I very much doubt they'd run away on a private yacht or anything like that, as they'd probably look at it instead as a challenge and an opportunity to sate their bloodlust. And again, note that I'm talking about a mini-codex, something along the lines of Codex: Inquisition, Codex: Legion of the Damned, and Codex: Imperial Knights. A list which could potentially make for a small army but which is primarily for use as a free allied force. Nobody's talking about legions and legions of Spyrers on par with every other military force in the 40k galaxy. And there's more than likely enough potential Spyrers out there to produce just as many troops as, say, the Inquisition with their Inquisitorial Henchmen. If the Inquisition can make up their own codex and have the ability to make their own detachments, however small, then Spyrers can certainly do so, especially if they're supported by either PDF troops or Tau Human Auxiliaries.

And going back to the potential Tau connection, the Tau base their style of warfare around hunting, so the Spyrer's hunting with their rigs could potentially be training for a military force which can blend its skills seamlessly with Tau military doctrines. Those skills which they learn on the hunt could then see wider use on the battlefield fighting on their own or as proxies for the Tau Empire. I certainly don't see why anyone would forego the use of Spyrer suits on the battlefield if they had the capability to produce those suits. And again, we're not talking Imperial Guard level troop productions, but there're undoubtedly enough Spyrers to justify detachments with up to 30 guys or so, or making appearances as allied units in friendly armies.

Sir Didymus
19-03-2014, 12:19
The only place for misfits like these on a battlefield is as an inquisitorial retinue, rules can easily be represented as DCA/Crusaders/Whatever :)

Hengist
19-03-2014, 12:37
To be honest, much as I love Necromunda, the Spyrers are a peripheral element even within the game; they are significant, in narrative terms, principally in opposition to the hive world's gangers. I would, of course, be delighted were GW to give us rules and updated models for 'paramilitary' forces like gangers (and Chaos/Genestealer cults), and some scenario/campaign rules to pit them against 40k's 'proper' armies, or against the Arbites/PDF; that would be the kind of 'narrative gaming' I could get behind.

A.T.
19-03-2014, 13:01
The Tau connection was indicated pretty heavily in the first Codex: TauIt was an easter egg for necromunda players who would recognise that four of the tau words look somewhat similar to the names of the spyrer suits.

The suits themselves are essentially the antithesis of everything tau - old, near forgotten technology mixing every other staple of imperial tech from chainblades to bolters to cameleoline into a highly impractical, highly ceremonial suit designed for brutal and deliberately inefficient close quarter fighting.

Spider-pope
19-03-2014, 13:04
I like them being part of the universe, I don't feel they'd slot in well with the tabletop game and I wouldn't want their fluff changed to force them in.

I'd rather see a new edition of necromunda with new shiny plastic kits for each gang!

Excuse me but can you get out of my mind and stop posting exactly what i was going to post two hours before me? ;)

The Emperor
19-03-2014, 13:07
It was an easter egg for necromunda players who would recognise that four of the tau words look somewhat similar to the names of the spyrer suits.

Yeah, but in the next page there's a short story which explicitly states that Tau technology is finding its way into the hands of Imperial aristocracy in the form of Spyrer suits, and as someone posted in the thread I linked to above, there's a novel featuring an Inquisitor wearing an Orrus suit who mentions that the suit is Tau in origin.


I like them being part of the universe, I don't feel they'd slot in well with the tabletop game and I wouldn't want their fluff changed to force them in.

Who's talking about changing the fluff? Just expanding it. After all, once they return above the wall I very much doubt that they hang up their hunting rigs and never use them again. If they end up going to war for whatever reason, they're not going to don a suit of carapace armor, a refractor field, and a laspistol. They're going to use their Spyrer hunting rig.

Beppo1234
19-03-2014, 13:25
I think they should re-instate necromunda... with all gangs being supplemented into 40k as a Conscript Supplement for imperials, like inquisition.

Denny
19-03-2014, 13:25
Who's talking about changing the fluff? Just expanding it. After all, once they return above the wall I very much doubt that they hang up their hunting rigs and never use them again. If they end up going to war for whatever reason, they're not going to don a suit of carapace armor, a refractor field, and a laspistol. They're going to use their Spyrer hunting rig.

I think the original fluff mentions that most Spyrers retire to spire life once their hunt is completed, but some do return to the underhive as part of another team.

The Spyrers suit is repeatedly referred to as a 'hunting rig'. To my mind this is what Spyrers do; they hunt in the underhive. If they go to war I would imagine they would don a suit of carapace armour, a refractor field, and a laspistol. I would also expect them to never use any of these pieces of equipment and to be a very long way from the front lines.

Spyrer suits are designed for survival and assassination. I don't think they are well suited for war, being short ranged and overly specialised. None of them have antitank weapons for example. None of them have weapons with a range greater than a bolt gun. Their armour is pretty poor for 40K (only one of them had a save equal to carapace armour) and their abilities don't mesh well, so they would not function well as a unit. As individuals they'd die very quickly.

For a special scenario they might be fun.

Also Necromunda is not dead! I'm working on a Spyrer gang as we speak . . . :)

Bugaboo
19-03-2014, 13:34
Hmmm, come to think of it, Scouts might be a better fit for counts as Space Marines for Spyrer suit allies to Tau. Mostly due to the Infiltration thing. Again, that being if you really want to include them in the game. But I have to agree in that they don't seem like something likely to be used for war.

A.T.
19-03-2014, 13:43
Yeah, but in the next page there's a short story which explicitly states that Tau technology is finding its way into the hands of Imperial aristocracy in the form of Spyrer suitsI'm not familiar with the story, but it sounds like a lazy attempt to retcon/crowbar the tau into the games background.

It also makes the tau out to be idiots for not using any of this advanced technology themselves, or anything vaguely resembling it, or whatever they apparently use to fly back and forth across the entire galaxy to get to segmentum solar with new deliveries, or their time travel machines...


Now spyrer suits being originally designed by the same species/group that uplifted the tau actually makes sense in the setting.

Hengist
19-03-2014, 14:07
I'm not familiar with the story, but it sounds like a lazy attempt to retcon/crowbar the tau into the games background.

It also makes the tau out to be idiots for not using any of this advanced technology themselves, or anything vaguely resembling it, or whatever they apparently use to fly back and forth across the entire galaxy to get to segmentum solar with new deliveries, or their time travel machines...

Now spyrer suits being originally designed by the same species/group that uplifted the tau actually makes sense in the setting.
I agree that it's a weak retcon in general - not least because I still think the suits look more Necron in style than Tau - but the disparity between the quality of the Spyrers' suits and Tau military tech could easily enough be handwaved with the explanation that the tech employed in the hunting rigs is too expensive/complex/fragile for general military issue. That still wouldn't explain what the Tau were doing in the Segmentum Solar, of course...

AndrewGPaul
19-03-2014, 14:09
My point about the numbers was that while there are definitely millions of nobles on a hive world, Ive always seen Spyrers as something really uncommon... Not every noble would be a Spyrer, just like today, not everyone enjoys skydiving. And while theyd definitely prefer their custom armour to some guard issue flak, I just dont see them staying on a world at war. They just seem like theyd work like bullies: Tough for those weaker than them, which is pretty everyone under normal circumstances, but if theres a chaos incursion? Tyranid hivefleet? Ork Waagh? Theyd be lightyears away on their private yachts before most of the population even knew about the situation.

I agree. Spyre nobles fight wars by being Imperial Guard generals, Munitorum officials and owning tank factories in the Hive City. :)


Maybe if things go horribly, horribly wrong, but for guys who put on hunting rigs and cut themselves off from creature comforts for the thrill of the hunt? We're not talking about 17th century effete French aristocrats, here. We're talking about a hyper violent nobility along the lines of the Imperial Knights. People who enjoy and relish life and death battles.

Not their life and death, though. That's why they go into the Underhive wearing armour that's near-magical. They're like the people who "hunt" tethered, sedated animals on a ranch, wearing expensive "tactical" camo clothes and gear.

The Emperor
19-03-2014, 14:19
Spyrer suits are designed for survival and assassination. I don't think they are well suited for war, being short ranged and overly specialised.

Eldar Aspect Warriors would disagree with you. :p That and these suits more often than not offer better mobility, protection, and firepower than standard Imperial Guard gear. Why wouldn't they want to wear one to war? People are way to hung up on their being called "hunting rigs." They could be labeled "war rigs" and it wouldn't require any difference, because they're perfectly usable in either setting, whether you're in an Underhive duking it out with gangers or on a battlefield in a squad of Spyrers wearing the same suit and fighting Genestealers. I find it hard to see why anyone would claim these suits aren't good for war, and if anything they're far more effective at war for the reasons I outlined above, like their ability to self-repair, feed the wearer, and create their own ammunition. That's an elite strike force which has no need of logistics. How is that not good in war?


None of them have antitank weapons for example. None of them have weapons with a range greater than a bolt gun.

I covered that right in the original post, that they should be a mini-codex along the lines of Codex: Inquisition and Codex: Legion of the Damned and not a full fledged army, and that they could either be paired with Imperial PDF forces or Tau Human Auxiliaries. I never suggested that just those four Spyrer types could be a standalone army equivalent to any of the primary armies like Space Marines or Imperial Guard, and specifically compared them to codex books designed to be taken as small detachments or allies by other armies.


Their armour is pretty poor for 40K (only one of them had a save equal to carapace armour) and their abilities don't mesh well, so they would not function well as a unit. As individuals they'd die very quickly.

I'm starting to get the feeling people just respond to the thread title and don't actually read the original post...

I didn't suggest they'd operate solo or be in one big squad together. What I suggested was each Spyrer type would be the basis of a squad of its kind. I.E. 5-10 Orrus in a squad, 5-10 Jakara, etc. As for stats, you're making the assumption that they should be statted up based on their stats as a Green Hunter, and not more along the lines of what they'd have after some upgrades. An Orrus, for instance, could be statted up with a 3+ Save and a 5+ Invulnerable Save. The Jakara and Malcadon could also have a 4+ Save, with the Jakara also potentially benefitting from an Invulnerable Save of some kind thanks to the Mirror Shield. The Yeld gets no improvement to its armor, so it's always 5+, but its wings would at least grant it the Stealth ability, nevermind its mobility, with rules which might qualify it as either Jump Infantry or Jet Pack Infantry. Not to mention that the Patriarch has a 2+ Armor Save.

A translation of the Spyrers to 6th Edition 40k could produce some pretty fun and effective units, and that's assuming that one wants to do a direct adaptation instead of just building them for 6th edition 40k from the ground up.

A.T.
19-03-2014, 14:36
The only place for misfits like these on a battlefield is as an inquisitorial retinue, rules can easily be represented as DCA/Crusaders/Whatever :)Part of a rogue trader retinue.

Probably wouldn't be too difficult for someone with the inquisitor ebook and a few of the fantasy flight books to throw together something official looking, aside from the time they'd have to take monkeying around recreating all of the stat boxes (which are images rather than tables).

Ambience 327
19-03-2014, 15:08
Back in 5th Edition, I created rules for running a very small team of Spyrers as a stand-alone army aganist a full (small) army of any other 40K faction. They were quite a bit up-gunned and beeefed from Necromunda (so they could be all on their own), but they made for some really fun games. You can check out my rules in my Rules Development thread (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?231300-Codex-Spyrer-Hunting-Party).

I have been thinking about doing something with them again in 6th, and these new dataslates and mini-dexes seem to be the way to go. As discussed earlier in this thread, they could easily be a quick bolt-on to pretty much any Imperial force, representing some nobles who missed the evac shuttles when the invasion started, or stuck around because they were bored and spoiling for a fight, or are among those rare few who actually believe in loyalty and duty and such. If I reimagine them for the current game, I think I'll tone them back down a bit and use them in this way.

Hmmm. Now I feel all inspired. I might decide to get to work on that soon. I'll toss a link up to the Rules Dev thread if I do.

Denny
19-03-2014, 15:29
As for stats, you're making the assumption that they should be statted up based on their stats as a Green Hunter, and not more along the lines of what they'd have after some upgrades. An Orrus, for instance, could be statted up with a 3+ Save and a 5+ Invulnerable Save.

And a gang leader can end up with BS6, 2 attacks, and the gunfighter and fast shot skills.
(I know because my gang leader has got these upgrades. She has just hit the 400+ experience . . . which means I am now terrified she is going to die) :)

However if someone said 'I think you should be able to use Necromunda gangers in 40K' I would tend to assume they would mean basic gangers, otherwise you could be dealing with ex-juves who could murder a Space Marine in close combat and outrun a genestealer, which just seems a bit silly . . . :shifty:

Ultimately it comes back to a theme issue. Spyrers are suited to stealth and ambush attacks on isolated groups. I just don't see them having a place in open warfare. I always saw mirror shields and web spinners as ritualistic weapons that are difficult to use and therefore award kudos for pulling off a kill.

I just can’t imagine a bunch of the hive's super-rich pulling on the hunting rigs they last wore as teenagers so they can face a ‘Nid invasion with web shooters and mirror shields (who would ever pick a mirror shield over a force field and an actual gun? Personally I like the option of shooting at people before they shoot at me). :wtf:

Just my opinion of course, but I’d strongly suggest anyone who likes Spyrers plays Necromunda. ;)

Theocracity
19-03-2014, 15:50
To be honest, much as I love Necromunda, the Spyrers are a peripheral element even within the game; they are significant, in narrative terms, principally in opposition to the hive world's gangers. I would, of course, be delighted were GW to give us rules and updated models for 'paramilitary' forces like gangers (and Chaos/Genestealer cults), and some scenario/campaign rules to pit them against 40k's 'proper' armies, or against the Arbites/PDF; that would be the kind of 'narrative gaming' I could get behind.

I think this has the gist of it. Spyrers are another one of the cool non-military forces that make up the background of the 40K world (like cultists, Arbites, Rogue Traders, etc), and should be treated as such. The closest I could see to them being on a battlefield would be as part of an Inquisitorial retinue, or as part of an interesting skirmish scenario rather than as a real unit.

I definitely think that if a Spyre noble went to war he would don carapace armor and a las pistol rather than a Spyrer suit. Why would he risk losing or damaging a near-irreplaceable piece of xeno / archaeotech in the mud of some godforsaken planet? What would his peers say?

Edit: Also, considering the standard recreational use of the suits, I think a Spyrer who shows up to battle in one of those suits would probably be looked on the same way as modern soldier would if he showed up to battle wearing lacrosse gear. "Laugh all you want, but we made nationals! And if you take a hit to the head with one of these you'll be feeling it the next day!"

drmarco
19-03-2014, 16:09
As a novel force for kill-team missions.

Many such 'fringe' forces would be great for a 'kill-team' sized game - genestealer cults, arbites, spyrers/gangers...

But then again maybe 7th edition should just have rules for a 'necromunda' style kill team game included, and 'Kill-team Dataslate' the relevant 'bolt-on' gangs/teams...

Dark Aly
19-03-2014, 16:30
I don't really care what role they'd fill in 40k, but new spyrer models would be great for us necromunda fans :)

Bugaboo
19-03-2014, 16:31
If there's one aspect of Necromunda I'd like to see in 40k, it's an Imper- Astra Militarum regiment of Van Saar. An example of such a thing was given in one of the older IG Codices.

Course, such a thing would either be hella expensive, or rather time consuming, given the availability of Van Saar now.

OuroborosTriumphant
19-03-2014, 16:53
Yeah, but in the next page there's a short story which explicitly states that Tau technology is finding its way into the hands of Imperial aristocracy in the form of Spyrer suits, and as someone posted in the thread I linked to above, there's a novel featuring an Inquisitor wearing an Orrus suit who mentions that the suit is Tau in origin.

Who's talking about changing the fluff? Just expanding it. After all, once they return above the wall I very much doubt that they hang up their hunting rigs and never use them again. If they end up going to war for whatever reason, they're not going to don a suit of carapace armor, a refractor field, and a laspistol. They're going to use their Spyrer hunting rig.

Well it rather depends on the circumstance of them going to war. If they join an Imperial Guard regiment, the regulation kit is the regulation kit. If their home world (and, as far as I'm aware, Spyrer suits are only known to exist on Necromunda) got invaded, I suppose they might make use of the Spyrer suits, but that's a pretty specific set of circumstances. They are not likely to want to broadcast to the rest of the Imperium that their houses have xenos-tech hunting suits that learn as you hunt with them and that what they like to do with them is hunt civilians in the Underhive. I can see it happening on a case-by-case basis, but that five Necromundan nobles, each with the same kind of Spyrer hunting suit are all on the same battlefield at the same time seems unlikely to me.

If one were determined to include some Spyrer suits in 40k, I think they'd be best as wargear options for an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor or possibly a Rogue Trader if they made a Rogue Trader Delegation mini-dex. I can even see it as a wargear option for an Imperial Noble Independent Character in a theoretical PDF mini-dex, but I don't think whole units of Spyrers on the battlefield makes sense.

A.T.
19-03-2014, 16:56
I don't really care what role they'd fill in 40k, but new spyrer models would be great for us necromunda fans :)I wouldn't mind one of the old ones actually - the matriarch was wearing sororitas power armour (or a close approximation) and counts-as sororitas character models are hard to come by :p

Chem-Dog
19-03-2014, 20:14
Ignoring the source of their origin altogether...

The only place I would personally be comfortable with Spyrers appearing in 40K, at the main game's scale, is as the possession of certain individuals who are in a position to A) Afford a Spyrer rig (if not multiples) and B) Be sufficiently above or beyond Imperial Justice to be able to use them with impunity.
So that leaves Inquisitors, Rogue Traders and particularly well off Heretic types, there's plenty of scope for a corrupt noble to obtain one, or even a handful of them.
I don't think they'd suit an organised army unless they were specialists within it (Orrus as squad leaders, Yeld fulfilling a similar role to, perhaps, Scourges. Malcaddon as some kind of Scout/Assassin and Jakarra as a melee specialist (again perhaps a Sarge). Not certain they suit an organised military unless they were the highly individualistic. A Five-Bad Team (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FiveBadBand) or a Quirky Miniboss Squad (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/QuirkyMinibossSquad) (CAUTION TV TROPES LINKS) might suit an army's narrative, they could be a paramilitary specialist group of something like the Secretists featured in the first two Ravenor books, their high-echelon support being evidenced by the use of such expensive and ultimately forbidden wargear.

TL;DR - They fit the setting but personally I don't think they belong in the game at the level it plays these days.

Azazyll
19-03-2014, 21:24
Having been reading the fluff since Necromunda came out I've never heard of a planet having more than a couple of dozen hives. Armageddon, one of the largest populations in the imperium, has fewer than a dozen hives. The idea of having a trillion people on a planet is ludicrous, even for 40k

Hengist
19-03-2014, 22:29
Having been reading the fluff since Necromunda came out I've never heard of a planet having more than a couple of dozen hives. Armageddon, one of the largest populations in the imperium, has fewer than a dozen hives. The idea of having a trillion people on a planet is ludicrous, even for 40k
In general, 40k's fluff is an exemplary case of how sci-fi writers have no sense of scale (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SciFiWritersHaveNoSenseOfScale). Being specific, Armageddon was originally conceived as an industrial world, not a hive world (and the mapped area, Armageddon Secundus, as its less-populated continent) hence the big empty spaces between the hive cities, whereas my impression of Necromunda has always been of hundreds of hives. Obviously once you consider the logistics of feeding hundreds or thousands of billions of human beings this evidently lies somewhere between ridiculously impractical and actually impossible, but 40k is about turning everything up to 11, not crafting a realistic (or even very plausible) sci-fi universe.

mpepperdine
20-03-2014, 06:51
I would love mini-dexes with the minor factions like Kroot, Demiurg, Loxatl, Spyrers etc

agurus1
20-03-2014, 07:22
I could see them being used as a "Formation" or "Stratagem" if they rerelease a Cities of Death thing. Maybe have access to 1 Spyrer hunter with assassin like stats and esoteric wargear. Would be cool to see them used as part of that specific setting (fighting in urban areas where they could take advantage of their skill and wargear to further their personal lust for violence). However I can't see them being used in common "pick-up" games and would prefer them to be linked to a particular supplement.

duffybear1988
20-03-2014, 09:31
They make the most sense appearing in an inquisitors warband as henchmen in power armour if you really want to field them.

Samsonov
20-03-2014, 10:13
Might not work in 6th edition but I think could fit 2nd pretty easily.

However, I'm thinking space hulk. Replace the terminators with Spyrers. Each class is brilliant at a specific task and rubbish at the others. A bit like trying to put your storm bolter, heavy weapon and close combat marines in the correct order, only even more extreme. Would be horribly unbalanced but great fun. Plus there is already a Necromunda campaign in the 1st ed campaign book.

The Emperor
20-03-2014, 10:45
However if someone said 'I think you should be able to use Necromunda gangers in 40K' I would tend to assume they would mean basic gangers, otherwise you could be dealing with ex-juves who could murder a Space Marine in close combat and outrun a genestealer, which just seems a bit silly . . . :shifty:

That's like saying when someone says they're using Space Marines you're assuming they all have Scout stats. It's obvious that a Spyrer would have some experience and would have some boosts to his armor before he ends up anywhere near a battlefield, just like a Tactical Squad Space Marine doesn't show up as a green recruit with WS 3, BS 3, and wearing Scout Armor. You're assuming the absolute worst in stats and now you're assuming the absolute best in stats. Stop swinging for the extremes and instead look at median in there that you're ignoring which would make for fun and characterful units.

For instance, let's take the Orrus. If we were building him for a 40k game while trying to keep him close to his Necromunda stats, we could do something like so...


ORRUS
WS: 4, BS: 4, S: 5, T: 4, W: 1, I: 3, A: 2, Ld: 8, Sv: 3+
Equipment: Power Field (5+ Invulnerable Save), Orrus Bolt Launchers

Weapon: Orrus Bolt Launchers
Range: 18"
Strength: 5
AP: 5
Type: Assault 2, Twin-Linked

Now for the Yeld.


YELD
WS: 4, BS: 4, S: 4, T: 4, W: 1, I: 3, A: 1, Ld: 8, Sv: 5+
Equipment: Yeld Laser Gauntlets, Yeld Wings
Special Rules: Jump Infantry, Shrouded

Weapon: Yeld Laser Gauntlets
Range: 20"
Strength: 4
AP: 5
Type: Assault 2

That's just two examples, and it wouldn't strain credulity to rewrite some rules a bit for 40k. For instance, the Orrus Bolt Launchers could probably be given a 24" range and the Yeld Laser Gauntlets could be 36". Not everything has to translate exactly from what it was in Necromunda.


I definitely think that if a Spyre noble went to war he would don carapace armor and a las pistol rather than a Spyrer suit. Why would he risk losing or damaging a near-irreplaceable piece of xeno / archaeotech in the mud of some godforsaken planet?

So that he doesn't risk dying instead? Nevermind that the suits can self-repair. If the suit ends up destroyed, then odds are he'd be dead, too, so where's the downside?


What would his peers say?

Is that before or after they get crushed in his Orrus gauntlets?


Edit: Also, considering the standard recreational use of the suits, I think a Spyrer who shows up to battle in one of those suits would probably be looked on the same way as modern soldier would if he showed up to battle wearing lacrosse gear. "Laugh all you want, but we made nationals! And if you take a hit to the head with one of these you'll be feeling it the next day!"

Now that's just a downright silly comparison. If Lacrosse suits effectively turned you into a superhuman soldier then everyone would turn up to battle wearing them. People seem to keep forgetting that in almost every case these suits are better than anything the Imperial Guard wears to war. Even the weakest, flimsiest suit amongst them offers the same protection as Flak Armor but also includes a stealth field and winged flight. And the best ones offer the same protection as Terminator Armor minus the force field. It's ludicrous to think that anyone who possessed a suit of armor like that would leave it on a shelf and put on carapace armor instead. There's even a novel where an Inquisitor got an Orrus suit off a noble family, and he doesn't leave it on the shelf. He uses it, and he doesn't exactly spend all his time hunting Gangers in the Underhive.

Arkon
20-03-2014, 13:18
Although I never started Necrumunda because of some personal issues (I don´t like the models, the amount of time necessary to build suitable terrain an some aspects of the gaming concept), I quiet liked reading the background and all, cause it gives a nice view in an aspect of the 40k universe I consider a bit neglected – and because it is simply well done. On the opposite, I´m not a big fan of most of the newest implementations, like Centurions and the like, being mostly very cheap explanations for new shiny toys, heavily interrupting existing fluff. I quite liked the Imperial Knight though, being a good overhaul of an existing and already implanted concept and therefore blending in well in existing armies.

This in mind, I would like GW to re-implant Spyrers and likewise as their “new” releases for the imperial forces and leave more innovative ideas mainly there where they have space to fit in better, for example for more Tau allies or a complete new race in another part of the galaxy (how long is it now since the introduced Tau…?). Spyrers in particular I see mostly as exotic editions to IG or as part of some Inquisitors or Rouge Traders personal forces.

Bugaboo
20-03-2014, 13:22
ORRUS
WS: 4, BS: 4, S: 5, T: 4, W: 1, I: 3, A: 2, Ld: 8, Sv: 3+
Equipment: Power Field (5+ Invulnerable Save), Orrus Bolt Launchers

Weapon: Orrus Bolt Launchers
Range: 18"
Strength: 5
AP: 5
Type: Assault 2, Twin-Linked

YELD
WS: 4, BS: 4, S: 4, T: 4, W: 1, I: 3, A: 1, Ld: 8, Sv: 5+
Equipment: Yeld Laser Gauntlets, Yeld Wings
Special Rules: Jump Infantry, Shrouded

Weapon: Yeld Laser Gauntlets
Range: 20"
Strength: 4
AP: 5
Type: Assault 2

Oh wow, that's actually some cool and creative effort you've put in there.

It's almost as if you care enough about this that you would make up a full set of rules for yourself.

You might as well do so.

Because it's unlikely GW will even expend half the effort to placate a niche market.

I assume that is the point of this thread.

Otherwise, what's the point in arguing vehemently with everyone that disagrees with your stance that Spyrers have some place in the 40k game?

Sanai
20-03-2014, 13:38
I don't really see them as appropriate as a core part of a PDF codex- Planetary Defense Forces are generally armed with Imperial Guard equipment or locally produced (inferior) alternatives. Even in the cases that PDF forces are better equipped than regular guard, the regular guard produced by said worlds would likely have the best of the equipment.

Scryer tech is pretty advanced, special issue kind of stuff- a more appropriate place to see some scryer tech would be in a Rogue Traders forces- they are the kind of people who have the influence, means and willingness to acquire such esoteric technology and use it.

A PDF army list... that would basically just be the guard codex, but without manticores, deathstrikes, half the leman russ variants, stormtroopers, veterans, psykers, abhumans, etc..... unless they are PDF from a Forge or Knight World, in which case they would be something somewhat different.

Arkon
20-03-2014, 14:01
A PDF army list... that would basically just be the guard codex, but without manticores, deathstrikes, half the leman russ variants, stormtroopers, veterans, psykers, abhumans, etc..... unless they are PDF from a Forge or Knight World, in which case they would be something somewhat different.

I think you could compensate the listed units with some generic ones plus some rules that mostly make sense for a force native to the terrain. For example I think the basic concept for rough riders ist better placed here than in IG, because I think it’s far more imaginably fighting on mounts (not only horses) living nearby rather than transport them to far across the galaxy to let them fight in environments they are not adapted for. Another way is to give them extra rules using terrain, representing they are quite used to fight on their own land with all its characteristics.

On the other hand, I agree in so far that I don´t see a PDF army being that much interesting that it should be out before some construction sites have been taken care of, like SoB or The Lost and the Damned…

Denny
20-03-2014, 14:42
That's like saying when someone says they're using Space Marines you're assuming they all have Scout stats. It's obvious that a Spyrer would have some experience and would have some boosts to his armor before he ends up anywhere near a battlefield.

Actually (IMO!) I'm following the fluff, which is that Spyrer generally use the suits as a right of passage and then retire to the Hive to take on their new duties.
Very few ever wear the suits again. They don't take them out for a spin at weekends or wear them to work. If they then came out of retire to fight in a war one would assume they would, at best, be rather rusty, far older and a little out of shape, and their stats would be closer to green hunters than the super soldier's you envision. :shifty:


Now that's just a downright silly comparison. If Lacrosse suits effectively turned you into a superhuman soldier then everyone would turn up to battle wearing them.

I think we disagree strongly on the suits purpose. ;)

Spyrer suits are super advanced, far more than imperial guard armour. But these advancement relate to self-repair, life support, and adaptive systems. These are very useful for an individual spending long periods of time in a hostile environment unsupported and alone, but in terms of armour and weapons the suits are . . . questionable. They are proving grounds; if you can master one it proves you’re good enough to take your place in the upper hive. They are not the most powerful weapons by any stretch. Would you really want to go to war with one of the following?

1) A mono sword and a mirror shield (any ranged weapons? No? OK . . .)
2) Pistol ranged Webshooters and claws (I’d rather have an actual, y’know, pistol)?
3) A shorter range lasgun?
4) Short range linked bolters, armour and big hands?

Could a noble with significant capital get anything better?
Hmmm . . .

1) Power sword, master crafted plasma pistol, a forcefield that works all the time and doesn’t require you to intercept shots with your hand?
2) . . . a bolt pistol and a knife? Or a web pistol if you prefer, which rules wise was far more powerful than then spyrer Web Spinnarets.
3) A normal lasgun. It’s like a short range lasgun but . . .
4) Storm bolter, power armour and a power fist.

Again, I can see the benefits of a hunting rig to an inquisitor who might spend long periods of time unsupported (though it had been modified so its wasn't just a 'basic' rig), but in an actual battle it doesn’t really matter if your suit can self-repair. If you survive the battle with damaged equipment you can get something new.

If you don’t survive or are captured it doesn’t matter . . .

Also play Necromunda. Its not in the past dang it! :mad: ;)

A.T.
20-03-2014, 15:18
If they then came out of retire to fight in a war one would assume they would, at best, be rather rusty, far older and a little out of shape, and their stats would be closer to green hunters than the super soldier's you envision. :shifty:Some do come out of retirement to a degree as patriarchs and matriarchs, but with more practical armour and generally only to monitor the younger spyrers.

Something like the light power armour of a matriarch would be entirely reasonable as battle attire for a wealthy noble, though likely one carrying a decent ranged weapon and less ritualistic blade.

xerxeshavelock
20-03-2014, 15:20
My hive gang Imperial Guard force was supported by a Malcadon using the Callidus Assassin rules, that was about the best fit I could make. It had a Template weapon that didn't use strength/toughness to kill, and were tasty in close combat, plus the deep strike was to represent the ability to move places others couldn't. That said, I would be against them rocking up as common sights in armies as I figure they'd rather be home living in luxury playing their own little game of thrones.

Theocracity
20-03-2014, 15:35
So that he doesn't risk dying instead? Nevermind that the suits can self-repair. If the suit ends up destroyed, then odds are he'd be dead, too, so where's the downside?

It's my understanding that human life is cheap in the Imperium, while unique technology is hard or impossible to replace. Even a selfish noble would likely think twice about wasting something irreplaceable just because "I'm dead so it doesn't matter" - after all, your actions are judged by the God-Emperor, and wasting his gifts is a bad idea. And even if they're not devout, the loss of a Spyre suit could effect his family's fortunes in the future and his personal legacy after his death.


Is that before or after they get crushed in his Orrus gauntlets?

I'm not sure you get the point I'm trying to make. Why would a civilized Spyre noble go running about in his Spyre suit killing people who talk bad about him? That sounds like the actions of a psychopath murderer.


Now that's just a downright silly comparison. If Lacrosse suits effectively turned you into a superhuman soldier then everyone would turn up to battle wearing them. People seem to keep forgetting that in almost every case these suits are better than anything the Imperial Guard wears to war. Even the weakest, flimsiest suit amongst them offers the same protection as Flak Armor but also includes a stealth field and winged flight. And the best ones offer the same protection as Terminator Armor minus the force field. It's ludicrous to think that anyone who possessed a suit of armor like that would leave it on a shelf and put on carapace armor instead. There's even a novel where an Inquisitor got an Orrus suit off a noble family, and he doesn't leave it on the shelf. He uses it, and he doesn't exactly spend all his time hunting Gangers in the Underhive.

Perhaps "deer hunter's camo with a bow" would have been a better example - it has a purpose, but not one suited for the military (unless you are Sly Marbo). As for its ability to turn you into a superhuman soldier, I'm going to second Denny's appraisal on the subject:


I think we disagree strongly on the suits purpose. ;)

Spyrer suits are super advanced, far more than imperial guard armour. But these advancement relate to self-repair, life support, and adaptive systems. These are very useful for an individual spending long periods of time in a hostile environment unsupported and alone, but in terms of armour and weapons the suits are . . . questionable. They are proving grounds; if you can master one it proves you’re good enough to take your place in the upper hive. They are not the most powerful weapons by any stretch. Would you really want to go to war with one of the following?

1) A mono sword and a mirror shield (any ranged weapons? No? OK . . .)
2) Pistol ranged Webshooters and claws (I’d rather have an actual, y’know, pistol)?
3) A shorter range lasgun?
4) Short range linked bolters, armour and big hands?

Could a noble with significant capital get anything better?
Hmmm . . .

1) Power sword, master crafted plasma pistol, a forcefield that works all the time and doesn’t require you to intercept shots with your hand?
2) . . . a bolt pistol and a knife? Or a web pistol if you prefer, which rules wise was far more powerful than then spyrer Web Spinnarets.
3) A normal lasgun. It’s like a short range lasgun but . . .
4) Storm bolter, power armour and a power fist.

Again, I can see the benefits of a hunting rig to an inquisitor who might spend long periods of time unsupported (though it had been modified so its wasn't just a 'basic' rig), but in an actual battle it doesn’t really matter if your suit can self-repair. If you survive the battle with damaged equipment you can get something new.

If you don’t survive or are captured it doesn’t matter . . .

Mr. Ultra
20-03-2014, 16:42
keep them in Necromunda and the fiction.

You mean, outside the real 40k Universe? :p

Phaeron Setek
20-03-2014, 18:41
I always thought Spyrers were affluent nobles who got bored and decided that going down into the underhive and hunting people was an entertaining adventure. They sported whatever advanced weapons and armor they could get their hands on (be it imperial, archeotech, or xenotech) as a show of power and privilege. But, like all privileged jerks, if they realized they could actually lose, they fled back to the safety of their spyres.

That said, if it was me throwing them into the game, I would make them desperate allies with IG, SM, and eldar, and allies of convenience with DE (hunting/torturing/terrorizing/killing people might strike a chord with the haemonculi). As stated before, I wouldn't make them a whole army, but perhaps a dataslate for and 0-1 unit comprised of 3-5 models and a leader as an upgrade. Also, if they lose combat or break from shooting, they flee automatically and can only rally on snake eyes (maybe have the leader afford them a regular or slightly reduced LD check).

The Emperor
20-03-2014, 18:44
But, like all privileged jerks, if they realized they could actually lose, they fled back to the safety of their spyres.

That's not actually how it works. When they go down into the underhive they make a vow they swear to meet. Until that vow is completed they stay below. They either accomplish their goal or they die. There's no running back above the wall.

Phaeron Setek
20-03-2014, 18:51
That's not actually how it works. When they go down into the underhive they make a vow they swear to meet. Until that vow is completed they stay below. They either accomplish their goal or they die. There's no running back above the wall.

Interesting. You learn something new every day. I had gotten the impression they were more like spoiled rich kids than nobles trying to accomplish something.

As for the armor, I figured it was very advanced compared to what hive gangs and other people you would find in a hive city would have. Kind of on a different scale entirely from military hardware.

xerxeshavelock
20-03-2014, 19:00
Interesting. You learn something new every day. I had gotten the impression they were more like spoiled rich kids than nobles trying to accomplish something.

They always reminded me of the Roman nobles who were rumoured to entertain themselves by basically doing what the #*&$ they wanted, and it coming out as contempt for the lives of their subjects. Not too dissimilar to the worst of the Imperial Guard forces. If it was done right a Guard regiment led by such would be a cool idea, but I would like them to be from another planet to Necromunda and have different suits if only for the sake of originality.

A.T.
20-03-2014, 20:44
As for the armor, I figured it was very advanced compared to what hive gangs and other people you would find in a hive city would have. Kind of on a different scale entirely from military hardware.The armour is ritualistic - they are essentially the young predators from the first AVP film out to prove that they are worth keeping around. Spyrer suits are deliberately restricted in their capabilities and armament in order to test the youths.

Imperial politics are cut-throat, literally at times, and the noble houses of places like necromunda can't afford to waste time and resources on children who aren't cut out for it.

Voss
21-03-2014, 02:22
Interesting. You learn something new every day. I had gotten the impression they were more like spoiled rich kids than nobles trying to accomplish something.

The two aren't mutually exclusive. They are spoiled rich kids. As much as culling the weaker nobility, they're also bloodthirsty little &*^$* out for thrill kill.


The armour is ritualistic - they are essentially the young predators from the first AVP film out to prove that they are worth keeping around. Spyrer suits are deliberately restricted in their capabilities and armament in order to test the youths.

Imperial politics are cut-throat, literally at times, and the noble houses of places like necromunda can't afford to waste time and resources on children who aren't cut out for it.
Well, sometimes. Just as often they're completely indifferent or completely hands off, it varies world by world. The Necromunda Houses are mostly competing amongst themselves. As long as the tithes continue to be filled, especially manpower, the Imperium doesn't give two figs about what happens in the Hives. Unless it devolves into mutation or madness, of course.

Gingerwerewolf
21-03-2014, 09:19
Ive just voted No.

Heres my Reasons

1) There are already enough Imperial Centric Armies in 40k
2) What niche do they fill on the 40k Tabletop? Everything they do is covered by another army, mainly Tau or Eldar
3) Why would they fight? Unless Necromunda was invaded. That is pretty 2 dimentional.
4) The Models are horrific. Hideous! I even thought that at the time and I had a Spyrer Gang, and I converted up Eldar Models to Represent them. I know they would get remodeled those scarred me.


At most I could accept their technology being mentioned in other Imperial Armylists such as Imperial Guard or Imperial Agents

Chem-Dog
22-03-2014, 12:22
That's like saying when someone says they're using Space Marines you're assuming they all have Scout stats. It's obvious that a Spyrer would have some experience and would have some boosts to his armor before he ends up anywhere near a battlefield, just like a Tactical Squad Space Marine doesn't show up as a green recruit with WS 3, BS 3, and wearing Scout Armor. You're assuming the absolute worst in stats and now you're assuming the absolute best in stats. Stop swinging for the extremes and instead look at median in there that you're ignoring which would make for fun and characterful units.

I'd actually lean to the better end of the scale for all Spyrers if one is intent on making them 40K compatible as most basic Spyrer rigs would equate to little more than "flak armour with sparkles" when literally translated from Necromunda to 40K.
Especially if one were to take the relatively small leap from "hunting equipment for the wealthy elite" to dedicated military outfit, the boosts (which are just a slightly tweak on Necro's otherwise entirely random experience system) could be managed by training and experience in specific fields and might even be potentially hot wired into producing specific results regardless of the wearer's relative success (as an aside, I've considered that the nobles of Necromunda might train their children in specific martial arts each one being a primer for meshing with a specific type of Spyrer Rig, these would not only allow them to defend themselves before or after the time of trial, but would actually serve them to use the rigs).


Actually (IMO!) I'm following the fluff, which is that Spyrer generally use the suits as a right of passage and then retire to the Hive to take on their new duties.
Very few ever wear the suits again. They don't take them out for a spin at weekends or wear them to work. If they then came out of retire to fight in a war one would assume they would, at best, be rather rusty, far older and a little out of shape, and their stats would be closer to green hunters than the super soldier's you envision. :shifty:

In the specific context of the Necromundan ruling Elite, I think you're right, but expanding the concept of Spyrer rigs beyond the coming of age rituals of a barbaric, decadent elite, the argument is less relevant, trained military personnel with specific equipment are going to stay sharp with that equipment until age, injury or death make them otherwise (and the first two of those are fairly negotiable in 40K anyway).
When writing a Spyrer Gang one was allowed to spend any left over creds on giving the team some additional training (10 creds for D6 exp), in one notable example a single Spyrer with all the rest of the creds (in the region of 800 creds worth) dedicated to "training" lead to a very powerful (but not particularly overpowered) Spyrer.
Starting a new Spyrer gang allowed you to recycle old Spyrer team mates the same as you could with any Necromunda characters. Admittedly this was as much to do with the quirks of the campaign system as it was anything else, but it's definitely implied that Spyrers can and do go back bellow the wall as the necessity and mood takes them.

Whilst I believe they'd be better suited to being a personality option, I'm not against exploring their potential as something more substantial too.


Ive just voted No.

Heres my Reasons

1) There are already enough Imperial Centric Armies in 40k
2) What niche do they fill on the 40k Tabletop? Everything they do is covered by another army, mainly Tau or Eldar
3) Why would they fight? Unless Necromunda was invaded. That is pretty 2 dimentional.
4) The Models are horrific.

1) Nothing to say Spyrers need be Imperium-Centric, not that this'll make the problem go away.
2) Not a valid argument in 6th Ed. Especially not after Codex:Knights. ;)
3) it's not a huge jumpt to assume an Imperial noble might strike out into the wilds of space to make his fortune and that he might bring his incredibly expensive suit of bespoke combat gear with him. or that the same noble decides to join the Imperial Guard and decides to bring is rig with him, or that he's a rotten stinking heretic who is doing his thing for his dark masters and so on. Nor is it a huge leap to assume that worlds other than Necromunda may have access to whatever source provides the rigs. So all you need is for someone to have the right connections and capitol and an army that's motivated and well equipped emerges, who they work for could be largely irrelevant (actually, parsing this argument out leads me to think Mercs might be a great niche for these guys).
4) Old models are old. If this were a new range with GW support, you'd expect new versions up to date with current standards and at the very least you'd probably expect any dedicated modeller sufficiently motivated to do so would create new takes on the classic designs (perhaps adding a Tau aesthetic in the process).

The Emperor
22-03-2014, 12:55
1) There are already enough Imperial Centric Armies in 40k

I do believe I added an option on the poll for them to be a Tau Empire allied faction. That's actually where I cast my vote, as the technology for the suits is reputed to come from the Tau.


2) What niche do they fill on the 40k Tabletop? Everything they do is covered by another army, mainly Tau or Eldar

They don't have to fill a niche, just as the Inquisition and the Legion of the Damned don't have to fill a niche. We're talking about a mini-codex here, one which is primarily used to provide a free allied force to a parent list, or to make a small Primary Detachment. Not a full-fledged army (Although given how they're mostly close-combat oriented, I don't see why you think the Tau cover their niche).


3) Why would they fight? Unless Necromunda was invaded. That is pretty 2 dimentional.

The suits come from off-world, so theoretically these suits can be found all over the galaxy. As for why would they fight, for the same reason anyone else would fight. Defend themselves from invasion or attack someone else. And if they're agents of the Tau, then they're out there spreading the Greater Good in the name of the Tau or serving as elite forces in their armies.


4) The Models are horrific. Hideous! I even thought that at the time and I had a Spyrer Gang, and I converted up Eldar Models to Represent them. I know they would get remodeled those scarred me.

Subjective opinions are subjective. With the exception of the Patriarch, I love them all and think they look great. But as the poster above noted, their current appearance is 20 years old. If we were judging armies by their appearance 20 years ago then odds are you'd hate most of them. I've got some Rogue Trader Space Marines sitting around which I'm sure you'd disapprove of as well.

gitburna
22-03-2014, 22:02
Spyrers already exist right were they belong in the 40k Universe, as tough baddies in a low level skirmishing game. About the only other place i can see them is Inquisitor.

You only need to look at how much of the feel of inquisitor warbands is lost by their translation to the 40k tabletop.

MajorWesJanson
23-03-2014, 03:43
Not as spryers, but I would like the see the XV-15 come back for the Tau, maybe as an upgrade option for Fire Warrior and pathfinder Shas'uis and the Cadre Fireblade. Better armor, and a burst cannon, but without the stealth generators.

jeffersonian000
25-03-2014, 20:09
I've been using my Spyers as Inquisitors and Assassins since 3rd Ed, with my Sisters and Grey Knights. They make great stand-ins for Inquisitors and Henchfolk.

SJ


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