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Rufiodies
20-03-2014, 08:00
ok spoiler alert

I was reading some of the Night Lords novels and there's a part where Curze says to someone... maybe another Primarch? Something about culling his legion, and about not knowing where to start, murderers, rapists, so on so forth.

Then, he decides, after waking up from his coma, to throw his best men into a fight he had to know they couldn't win. (sending the Atramentar to die against the Dark Angels). Then, when he sees how bad their loosing, he just runs off?

Now either its just his whole dual personality issue coming up, konrad curze/night haunter, one or the other, pure vs chaos
or
he figured out where to start culling his legion, and he figured the worst of the worse were the atramentar, or the best of the best.
He knew they'd die, so he sacrificed them to the dark angels. He wanted them to die
I really don't see another option. Curze being crazy just doesn't work for me
Now lets say this is true. Why kill off the atramentar? Are they the rapists and murderers curze was speaking of? Do they have too much influence? Did Curze see it in his prophecy, then made it happen? I just don't get it.

We get the whole Zso Sahaal vs Krieg Acerbus view of Curze's ideals/plans w.e. one thinks he's pure and wanted fear as a tool, and the other thought Curze was just a madman who killed to kill. Which one wanted the Atramentar dead? good Curze or bad Curze?

Kinda related, After reading the night lords trilogy, I get the idea that the Atramentar are kinda like Dark Eldar Incubi, brotherhood outside the normal realm of things, sworn to protect their leaders, despite how sick/crazy they might be, for some reason that doesn't really make sense (besides exerting some form of influence over the legion's general path) Maybe Curze knew this, and had them killed to deny their influence, not sure

Perrin
20-03-2014, 13:49
I don't really see how the Atramentar are any different from any other First Company. The Salamanders Firedrakes are slighty apart from the rest of the Legion and just being a member of their ranks gives a certain amount of influence, same goes for the SoH Justaerin and any other First Company. They are the best of the Legion, all other marines should aspire to be counted among their ranks one day.

As for Curze talking about the cull, I think he wasn't being very serious. The point is, what's the point in a cull? By the time of the HH the Night Lords were pretty corrupt anyway, filled with murderers and rapists , and had been rogue for 20-odd years. Any marines that still harboured some loyalty to the Emperor would have been long gone by then.

Curze has no reason to want the Atramentar dead. They were utterly loyal to their captain, Super Sev, and he was (at that moment anyway) loyal to Curze.

Running away when the odds are against you is what the Night Lords do. Curze saw the fight was going badly, so he ran away. The Atramentar didn't for whatever reason, probably because they didn't want to leave Sevatar, and maybe to cover their Primarchs escape. Or maybe just that they were too "honourable" to run from a fight. They're the First Company because they're the best fighters, like in any other Legion, rather than being the best at causing terror or the best at running away.
Also he's mad.

Welfstar
20-03-2014, 13:59
Was there really 20+ years between the Night Lords going rogue and the outbreak of the Heresy? This doesn't seem right. I've always thought the two events occurred much closer together.

I'm not outright challenging you, but with respect, what's your source for this?

Perrin
20-03-2014, 15:30
Was there really 20+ years between the Night Lords going rogue and the outbreak of the Heresy? This doesn't seem right. I've always thought the two events occurred much closer together.

I'm not outright challenging you, but with respect, what's your source for this?

I'm pretty sure there's a timeline in Betrayal that says it was 984.M30, 16 years before Ullanor, but I don't have it to hand.

MR.Tea
20-03-2014, 16:23
Then, he decides, after waking up from his coma, to throw his best men into a fight he had to know they couldn't win. (sending the Atramentar to die against the Dark Angels). Then, when he sees how bad their loosing, he just runs off?

Yeah, but you see, Curze was heading into DA flagship, meaning DA primarch and probably DA first company is there...seems prety logical to go there with your best man behind you, and those are the Atramentar boys.

Rufiodies
10-12-2014, 12:41
Here's the issue, I read the ss again, and it says they fought in the middle of the ship, the worst place for them to be, simply because "thats where the two primarchs met" Curze is shown to have pretty good prophetic abilities in later novels, I refuse to believe that he just happened to meet The Lion there "by chance" He led his best men into an ambush they had no hope of surviving, and when he saw they were buggered, he ran off, leaving his men to die/be captured. Its seems to me that he wanted them dead, gone, out of his hair. or at least one half of him did. He cared nothing for the fate of his legion at that point, he ruined the admirals "great plan" and pretty much fed his flagship to the Dark Angels before teleporting onto their flagship, probably causing even more of his legion to die than if he had used any tactical sense.
So we have two options.
1. He's insane, his only thought was killing The Lion, later books show that he's obsessed with killing his brothers, an act he values above all others, at any cost (besides his own life it seems) Was The Vulkan Torture Files before or after the Thramas Crusade? Before right? Maybe that put him over the edge, He just wants to be sure his brothers CAN die lol. "I JUST HAVE TO KNOW!!!"
2. This was a thought out and meticulous plan. Although he is insane, in Unremembered he uses his prophetic gifts to great effect, planning out his actions and showing a great mind for strategy. Why he wouldn't do the same in order to kill The Lion, I do not know. Why just suicide dive into the lair of the beast when you can see the damn future! He must have known what would happen, Plus, what primarch abandons his best men? I know he's a nutjob who hates his legion, but look at the actions of the 3 primarchs at Istvaan? He was culling his men, he mentions it immediately before the Dark Angels ambush them the second time in his psychic convo with Sev, it has to be a clue.
Theres also the idea that he is two different people, Konrad, and The Night Haunter, which would explain why, after the Heresy, he would ask for Sev and get crazy confused/angry when they told him that Sev died in the Heresy.

So there, while Curze had no reason to want them dead, I believe The Night Haunter led the Atramentar into the DA Flagship to die.

Inquisitor Engel
10-12-2014, 19:07
Kinda related, After reading the night lords trilogy, I get the idea that the Atramentar are kinda like Dark Eldar Incubi, brotherhood outside the normal realm of things, sworn to protect their leaders, despite how sick/crazy they might be, for some reason that doesn't really make sense (besides exerting some form of influence over the legion's general path) Maybe Curze knew this, and had them killed to deny their influence, not sure

The Atramentar aren't sword to anyone except themselves and to the Legion. They leave once The Exalted is dead and don't stick around to guard Talos once he takes command of the warband, probably because they don't view Talos as a valid leader of the Night Lords. The Atramentar are a unit apart from the First Company though. Being part of the First Company didn't make one Atramentar. They were those who swore allegiance to Sevatar, which is why he is BOTH First Captain AND Master of the Atramentar.


I don't really see how the Atramentar are any different from any other First Company. The Salamanders Firedrakes are slighty apart from the rest of the Legion and just being a member of their ranks gives a certain amount of influence, same goes for the SoH Justaerin and any other First Company. They are the best of the Legion, all other marines should aspire to be counted among their ranks one day.

The Atramentar are slightly different though - aside from not being First Company, but actually being a sub-unit within it, they don't seem to hold any influence in the Heresy on their own. They are totally loyal to Sevatar. What he says, goes. They're also all, up until we get to 'present-day' 40k, unnamed and largely unimportant to the plot. The Firedrakes, Justaerin, etc. All have named characters in the HH books, even if they're just tangential.


As for Curze talking about the cull, I think he wasn't being very serious. The point is, what's the point in a cull? By the time of the HH the Night Lords were pretty corrupt anyway, filled with murderers and rapists , and had been rogue for 20-odd years. Any marines that still harboured some loyalty to the Emperor would have been long gone by then.

I think he was being very serious, but he also knows that anyone loyal to the Emperor is probably in such a minority that those who simply don't care would take care of them in a heartbeat. Sevatar murders THE ENTIRETY of the Chiroptera because they didn't suit his vision and needs for the Legion's leadership (his assumption that Curze at the time could well die, and he'd be in charge) even though they were totally loyal to Curze.


Curze has no reason to want the Atramentar dead. They were utterly loyal to their captain, Super Sev, and he was (at that moment anyway) loyal to Curze.

But he also has no reason to keep them alive. Their loyalty to Sevatar could well become a liability over time, especially if you consider Curze's prescience. He also knows Sevatar is prone to impulsive decisions, even if they work out for him. Impulse decisions, backed up by terminators, can very quickly be bad decisions.

bittick
12-12-2014, 20:12
I have not read any of the Night Lords HH books, but from what I recall Night Haunter's prophecies were always of failure and doom. You look into the future and you don't see your wedding day, when your 3 kids were born, or your 80th birthday party when you're surrounded by kids, grandkids, and great grandkids. You look into the future and you see the one time your wife had an affair (from which your marriage would ultimately recover), when you were diagnosed with colon cancer at age 45, or when your son dies in a car accident. Every time Night Haunter had a vision, it ended with awful things. As a result, he was incredibly pessimistic. He's very similar to Lord Denethor in the Lord of the Rings, who gazed into his Palantir and saw only what Sauron wanted him to see.

In fiction and in myth, prophecies generally aren't something you can do whenever you want. It's not like Night Haunter can walk through a casino and look at every future to see which machine is about to pay out. "Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Ooh, this one." It happens when it happens. He goes to the casino, and if he sees a glimpse of the future, he sees the big fire that happens 50 years from now, when hundreds of people get trapped in the building and die.

You add this to Night Haunter's already winning personality, and his fits of depression, and you can see how being around him is like being around Batman in a bad mood. Just go watch Apocalypse Now and remember that Night Haunter is Marlon Brando.

Scribe of Khorne
12-12-2014, 20:58
There are a number of things I think we must consider truth for any look at Night Haunter to make sense.

1. He was going mad. As noted he didnt see the positive side, was never given visions of glory, was happy enough to have 'his' people toil in a life of utter fear and terror.

2. By and large, he hated his Legion. I would argue that we have not seen any display of his Legion as it would have been at being formed with him as its leader, but by the time we see them in HH fiction, he hates them, and who they are.

3. There are no nice Night Lords. The HH2 book makes it plain that even the Terran's are monsters in all but name. The only difference, is pre-Curze, they performed the acts they did out of a role as a Punisher of trangressions. After Curze? Its punishment preceding transgression 'disobey, and you become a flag on my tank'.

Now, did he intentionally want to cull his Legion's best? I dont think so. This is a Primarch who ultimately 'knew' his fate, and imo wanted to subvert it. He wanted to die, (and you see this in Vulkan Lives!) and he wanted to prove to himself, that his methods where just, he didnt want to be the monster that he was I dont think, not really but thats what his experiences formed him into.

The 1st Company and Atramentar where at the wrong place, wrong time, and loyal to a Primarch who was on the edge of (or already over it) becoming unhinged.

Razios
13-12-2014, 03:52
There are a number of things I think we must consider truth for any look at Night Haunter to make sense.

1. He was going mad. As noted he didnt see the positive side, was never given visions of glory, was happy enough to have 'his' people toil in a life of utter fear and terror.

2. By and large, he hated his Legion. I would argue that we have not seen any display of his Legion as it would have been at being formed with him as its leader, but by the time we see them in HH fiction, he hates them, and who they are.

3. There are no nice Night Lords. The HH2 book makes it plain that even the Terran's are monsters in all but name. The only difference, is pre-Curze, they performed the acts they did out of a role as a Punisher of trangressions. After Curze? Its punishment preceding transgression 'disobey, and you become a flag on my tank'.

Now, did he intentionally want to cull his Legion's best? I dont think so. This is a Primarch who ultimately 'knew' his fate, and imo wanted to subvert it. He wanted to die, (and you see this in Vulkan Lives!) and he wanted to prove to himself, that his methods where just, he didnt want to be the monster that he was I dont think, not really but thats what his experiences formed him into.

The 1st Company and Atramentar where at the wrong place, wrong time, and loyal to a Primarch who was on the edge of (or already over it) becoming unhinged.


And there is ANOTHER issue: Nostradamos, it was place of perpetual crime, imagine juarez,detroit,post war afghanistan and every high-crime city cover the whole planet, it was this place that make curze decied his course of action: to become the punisher of crime and sin and when the politics,rapist and murder come to him saying "save us" he will whisper "no.."

But he faild, eventually Nostrodomo return to his old ways because fear dosent hold forever(something the imperium never seen to understand) the primach are shape by their victories, but in the case of Lorgar,Angron and Curze, they were shape by their faliures

Scribe of Khorne
13-12-2014, 05:01
Yes, and I think the destruction of Nostramo was little more than an attempt for Curze to deny to himself that his methods failed. If you would accept me going way off the deep end into speculation, the rumour of them targeting with their capital weapons the location where he landed, could easily be interrupted as an attempt for Curze to 'kill' himself, by removing where he was 'born' into Nostramo...

This is the most nihilistic and self loathing of Primarchs, by far. :D

Arijharn
16-12-2014, 07:28
Night Haunter couldn't control his visions iirc, so he could hardly use them to plan for a glorious invasion of the Dark Angels, or anything else for that matter. If it happens when he draws his plans, awesome, but really that would just be by accident.

Nazguire
16-12-2014, 07:54
Night Haunter couldn't control his visions iirc, so he could hardly use them to plan for a glorious invasion of the Dark Angels, or anything else for that matter. If it happens when he draws his plans, awesome, but really that would just be by accident.

That was the general view. until in Unremembered Empire where seemed to be able to call them up at will.

Inquisitor Engel
17-12-2014, 05:39
2. By and large, he hated his Legion. I would argue that we have not seen any display of his Legion as it would have been at being formed with him as its leader, but by the time we see them in HH fiction, he hates them, and who they are.

Indeed. There's a SINGLE flash back where see the VIII Legion on Nostramo, just before they depart. There's a lot of nostalgia to it, but it certainly seems a time when even the Nostramans (being brought up under the reign of the Night Haunter) were PROUD to be Astartes and WARRIORS of the Imperium. That said, there's an air of arrogance about their new strength - Talos kills his own mother because he doesn't recognize her and no one bats an eye. (Har-har)


3. There are no nice Night Lords. The HH2 book makes it plain that even the Terran's are monsters in all but name. The only difference, is pre-Curze, they performed the acts they did out of a role as a Punisher of trangressions. After Curze? Its punishment preceding transgression 'disobey, and you become a flag on my tank'.

By and large, I think you're right. But... How much of an exception of the rule do you think Talos is? None of his actions would be outside of the realm of 'normal' for a loyalist in 40k. Even offing his serfs for crappy service is within the realms of possibility for some chapters (and even then, he's VERY lenient with Septimus, compared to his previous thralls). Sevatar certainly has an air of nobility about him sometimes (he's downright jovial with that pilot) but is very much his fathers' son I suppose.


That was the general view. until in Unremembered Empire where seemed to be able to call them up at will.

The only reasonable explanation of this is that after his near-death experience and Vulcan mind-meld with Sevatar, he's able to control them somehow.

Nazguire
17-12-2014, 08:36
Indeed. There's a SINGLE flash back where see the VIII Legion on Nostramo, just before they depart. There's a lot of nostalgia to it, but it certainly seems a time when even the Nostramans (being brought up under the reign of the Night Haunter) were PROUD to be Astartes and WARRIORS of the Imperium. That said, there's an air of arrogance about their new strength - Talos kills his own mother because he doesn't recognize her and no one bats an eye. (Har-har)


By and large, I think you're right. But... How much of an exception of the rule do you think Talos is? None of his actions would be outside of the realm of 'normal' for a loyalist in 40k. Even offing his serfs for crappy service is within the realms of possibility for some chapters (and even then, he's VERY lenient with Septimus, compared to his previous thralls). Sevatar certainly has an air of nobility about him sometimes (he's downright jovial with that pilot) but is very much his fathers' son I suppose.

The only reasonable explanation of this is that after his near-death experience and Vulcan mind-meld with Sevatar, he's able to control them somehow.

Or... Ablett added it for storytelling effect and there is no other reason. He may try to justify it with a reason similar to yours, or he may not (and neither will subsequent authors). Likely that Abnett either did not read the established background, or did (more likely) and changed it for effect after conversations with the other authors.

Sanguinius wasn't portrayed (to my knowledge, please correct if wrong) as psychic other than his prophecies, yet in Fear to Tread he's lighting his sword up with psychic fire. Doubt there was any thought put into it other than it's cool.

Inquisitor Engel
17-12-2014, 16:59
Or... Ablett added it for storytelling effect and there is no other reason. He may try to justify it with a reason similar to yours, or he may not (and neither will subsequent authors). Likely that Abnett either did not read the established background, or did (more likely) and changed it for effect after conversations with the other authors.

Probably, but we've got to rationalize it within the universe somehow, even if it's hacking it in somehow.

lordbong13
17-12-2014, 23:02
Or... Ablett added it for storytelling effect and there is no other reason. He may try to justify it with a reason similar to yours, or he may not (and neither will subsequent authors). Likely that Abnett either did not read the established background, or did (more likely) and changed it for effect after conversations with the other authors.

Sanguinius wasn't portrayed (to my knowledge, please correct if wrong) as psychic other than his prophecies, yet in Fear to Tread he's lighting his sword up with psychic fire. Doubt there was any thought put into it other than it's cool.

I seem to recall all the primarchs having some psy ability and that sanguinius was (distant) second to Magnus .
Hence BA being said to have more psykers , sanguinius death having a psychic echo / the death of his sons at Ka'band'has hands knocking him unconscious .

Arijharn
18-12-2014, 00:40
All the Primarch's are psykers imo, even if they don't actively use their gift or may not even be too aware of it in the first place. Even Leman Russ's shout that screws with the Thousand Sons seems to me at least to be a psychic attack due to the fact he's patently not a pariah and he doesn't have some sort of physical weapon that he activates to do it. In addition, I would think it obvious that since they were designed, they would have psychic abilities simply because that could make them more effective in combat/situations, and it would seem silly to not design in that obvious advantage given that the Emperor doesn't have that much in the way of ethical concerns.

I've always understood Sanguinius to be highly psychic, it's just that he is far more famous for his prophecies (including that of his own destruction). Also, I think there were limitations that Sanguinius placed upon his self that led to him basically just casting blessings upon himself as opposed to using it to attack others due to the fact that seems to be more about the reason of Magnus' censure, and Sanguinius wasn't also censured, although he was supportive of the Librarius system. Perhaps Sanguinius was capable of hurling lightning at fools but didn't because that way lead to chaos etc, etc. I dunno.

Scribe of Khorne
18-12-2014, 00:46
Indeed. There's a SINGLE flash back where see the VIII Legion on Nostramo, just before they depart. There's a lot of nostalgia to it, but it certainly seems a time when even the Nostramans (being brought up under the reign of the Night Haunter) were PROUD to be Astartes and WARRIORS of the Imperium. That said, there's an air of arrogance about their new strength - Talos kills his own mother because he doesn't recognize her and no one bats an eye. (Har-har)

By and large, I think you're right. But... How much of an exception of the rule do you think Talos is? None of his actions would be outside of the realm of 'normal' for a loyalist in 40k. Even offing his serfs for crappy service is within the realms of possibility for some chapters (and even then, he's VERY lenient with Septimus, compared to his previous thralls). Sevatar certainly has an air of nobility about him sometimes (he's downright jovial with that pilot) but is very much his fathers' son I suppose.


I think if we had a more running narrative of Talos, we would see his darker side. He very much railed for the 'noble' Night Lord role, and was called out for his delusion a few times, but if ADB where to write it again? Not sure.

We see the 'true' Talos when he's popping psyker heads with a Navigator. :D

Nazguire
18-12-2014, 01:24
All the Primarch's are psykers imo, even if they don't actively use their gift or may not even be too aware of it in the first place. Even Leman Russ's shout that screws with the Thousand Sons seems to me at least to be a psychic attack due to the fact he's patently not a pariah and he doesn't have some sort of physical weapon that he activates to do it. In addition, I would think it obvious that since they were designed, they would have psychic abilities simply because that could make them more effective in combat/situations, and it would seem silly to not design in that obvious advantage given that the Emperor doesn't have that much in the way of ethical concerns.

I've always understood Sanguinius to be highly psychic, it's just that he is far more famous for his prophecies (including that of his own destruction). Also, I think there were limitations that Sanguinius placed upon his self that led to him basically just casting blessings upon himself as opposed to using it to attack others due to the fact that seems to be more about the reason of Magnus' censure, and Sanguinius wasn't also censured, although he was supportive of the Librarius system. Perhaps Sanguinius was capable of hurling lightning at fools but didn't because that way lead to chaos etc, etc. I dunno.

All the Primarchs were psychic to a degree, that isn't contested. Psychic powers aren't just hurling lightning - a guy who sees the future is psychic, but he can't hurl lightning bolts at people.

I don't think there has been any prior source that says Sanguinius could use psychic fire, or even actively use his psychic potential other than in a passive sense (such as seeing the future in visions that just come over him randomly).

The same follows Night Haunter - his psychic visions always seemed to be random, uncontrollable spasms that were violent in nature and dark in substance. He didn't control them, he just got them, similar to an epileptic fit. In Unremembered Empire, this is thrown out the window as Night Haunter would get these positive visions, that told him the best away about killing someone without being killed himself. Rather than unrelated visions that need interpretation - he didn't know when exactly he would die, only that he would die by an assassin. Now he seems to be able to call upon them at will, and rather than the teenage-angst ridden like visions we are used to, they are these beneficial cheat codes.

I don't have an issue with Sanguinius lighting up his sword per se, as it doesn't take away the tragedy of the character. Having controlled God-mode visions like Night Haunter does in Unremembered Empire undermines his character and its development; the whole point of Night Haunter is that he is a depressing self-fulfilling prophecy.

Lupe
18-12-2014, 07:51
I don't have an issue with Sanguinius lighting up his sword per se, as it doesn't take away the tragedy of the character. Having controlled God-mode visions like Night Haunter does in Unremembered Empire undermines his character and its development; the whole point of Night Haunter is that he is a depressing self-fulfilling prophecy.

I don't think 'God-mode' is the way I'd describe the visions Night Haunter has.

See, the way I look at it, his visions (and in fact, every primarch's powers) were only as reliable and as useful as the focus they possessed. Now, the Haunter is already unstable and prone to extreme mood swings, but without any real discipline or important goals to focus on, of course he can't exercise control over his visions. And he's not the one to consider the slaughter of mere mortals on a galactic scale as anywhere near being important. Nor is he too concerned with the ideals of the Crusade. Neither, is he, for that matter, worried about ensuring his own regimes of terror will last, due to his conviction that his methods are in fact working.

However, when he finds himself on Macragge alone and against a significant portion of an Astartes Legion along with three primarchs, he manages to get a solid grip of himself, because vengeance and survival instincts kick in, for possibly the first time since his childhood. He begins to focus. His hatred is no longer a bubbling pot of slime and bile, it's coalescing into something solid, something sharp and deadly. This state of single minded determination is atypical for him, but it's the kind of mindset that allows his (probably latent) psychic powers to manifest in ways that are useful to him and relevant to the his current tactical situation.

EDIT: This way, the visions doesn't cheapen the self-fulfilling prophecy theme, but rather add to the Night Haunter's character, and stack an additional layer of human fallibility to his whole story.

bittick
18-12-2014, 15:05
It doesn't add to the character at all. It dilutes the character. So the only reason he came to a tragic end is because his survival instincts didn't kick in? Yech.

flota
18-12-2014, 19:25
UR ruined the night haunter for me

Razios
18-12-2014, 21:03
It doesn't add to the character at all. It dilutes the character. So the only reason he came to a tragic end is because his survival instincts didn't kick in? Yech.

he die because he want to, he pretty much said so the the assain whe where send to kill him, he know it was right and dosent care anymore.

death meants nothing to vindication

Scribe of Khorne
19-12-2014, 05:24
UR ruined the night haunter for me

Abnett's gotten close to unreadable for me honestly.

Lupe
19-12-2014, 06:34
It doesn't add to the character at all. It dilutes the character. So the only reason he came to a tragic end is because his survival instincts didn't kick in? Yech.

He's still a genetically engineered demigod who can see the future. He leads a legion of superhumans. He specializes in genocide, terror tactics against mortals and avoiding fair fights. His life has probably never been threatened since he was still growing up. That kind of thing can lead a man to think he's invincible.

But in UE, he's actually found not just a credible threat to his existence, but also a valid reason to cling on to it for a bit more (even if that reason is revenge, proving a point or just making his brothers suffer). Keep in mind that by this point, he'd stopped caring altogether about whatever happened to the Imperium or his Legion.


he die because he want to, he pretty much said so the the assain whe where send to kill him, he know it was right and dosent care anymore.

death meants nothing to vindication

Yes, and just because he's motivated to survive during UE, it's still entirely possible for someone to change his mind after losing a civil war on a galactic scale, witnessing countless new betrayals for the sake of petty reasons, staring into the horrors of a Hell you thought was unreal, and seeing most of your equals die or even embrace the same horrors wholeheartedly.

And since we're talking about him wanting to die, here's another interesting idea. His prophecies about his own death seem disturbingly accurate (even down to M'shen's name) and consistent for a man whose troubles started because he couldn't rely on his own visions. So it's very possible that suicidal tendencies or having a death wish can focus psychic powers just as well as the will to survive, so long as they're of sufficient strength and single-mindedness behind them.

Rufiodies
19-12-2014, 09:06
So to summarize,
Curze most probably killed the atramentar and sev off for whatever crazy reasons (or valid ones) he had at that time
Question on this... So after Sev gives the orders to split up into 6 groups, or however many, does Curze change it? Does the DA ambush cancel that , or had everyone already left? How many of the new Kyrptera whatever, survive to lead the NL into the heresy?

Curze, in addition to being a psychopath, had a REALLY bad case of "split personality" disorder resulting in his... crazyness

In UE Curze mentions his visions usually never being wrong, which makes me wonder, how often was he wrong? It seemed like he cared more that his visions were correct than he cared about his own life. Like if he decided to change fate and kill that assassin, he'd be undoing the entire premise for his WHOLE LIFE, and his fragile psyche just couldn't deal with that happening.

Also, he had to know the big guy was a corpse in a chair by the time of his death, why would he think that the Emperor allowed/gave the order for an assassin to come after him? He had to know it was from some sHLoT Its just... kinda shotty storytelling if you ask me.
I'm just tired of "well he's bonkers" as being the excuse/answer for why Curze does the things he does.

flota
19-12-2014, 13:47
The lion was hunting him on his ship and was about to kill him. Then he faces him again with guilliman at his side and loses badly.
So now kurze is just the most powerful primarch cause he can see the future at will but then suddenly he doesn't care again? That's bad writing of a already established character.

I second the idea that the black library should assign a primarch to each author to avoid mess like these

Lupe
19-12-2014, 14:10
Well, it *IS* bad writing, but it's here to stay. I'm just trying to work it into something that resembles sense here.

Razios
19-12-2014, 18:24
for me konrad let himself die because he know it was right at the end, the imperium become the total police state who dosent allow dissent after all this time and because they were so lazy, they let someone like horus to take power, for Kurze that show he was right all along, his deat means nothing compared to that

So in a way Kurze is and idealist....in a rather morbid sense of the world, the only thing he cared is that he was right all along, he destroying nostromo was part of that

Scribe of Khorne
19-12-2014, 21:30
Heresy Era - We dont know where the NL ended up after Kurze and the 1st jumped onto the DA Ship. Story hasnt been told yet.

Post Heresy - Curze wanted to die, to prove the point of his life. Evil must be punished, and he knew deep down, that he was evil. His death, was the entire point of his life, and he would not have tried to stop it, for to do so, would invalidate all his previous choices.

I dont think he cared what happened to Sev and the first, it wasnt on his mind when he went to kill the Lion.

Inquisitor Engel
21-12-2014, 00:06
Heresy Era - We dont know where the NL ended up after Kurze and the 1st jumped onto the DA Ship. Story hasnt been told yet.

... Yes it has. In Unremembered Empire.

Rufiodies
23-12-2014, 04:34
Wait... Unremembered empire talks about the rest of the NL AFTER the debacle attack on the DA flagship? It talks about the Dark Angels coming to Ultramar, but I don't remember reading anything about the NL in it... I do remember something about a few NL ships in orbit around Sotha in a short story, maybe something Sev was thinking while jailed "the bulk of the NL would probably end up at terra with the warmaster" something like that, but nothing... point of view? if that makes any sense

One more question. SPOILER

After Kurze fights that daemon and leaves the warp, what planet is he on? Still Ultramar? Is there a story about him getting off planet? or are we to assume that he is still there causing chaos? Cause in the audio book with the censured dude and Rowboat talking about changing the space marines, Rowboat doesn't seem to be searching for Kurze, something that would be number 1 on MY list of things to do...

So where is he? has that story been told? post unremembered?

Nazguire
23-12-2014, 07:43
Wait... Unremembered empire talks about the rest of the NL AFTER the debacle attack on the DA flagship? It talks about the Dark Angels coming to Ultramar, but I don't remember reading anything about the NL in it... I do remember something about a few NL ships in orbit around Sotha in a short story, maybe something Sev was thinking while jailed "the bulk of the NL would probably end up at terra with the warmaster" something like that, but nothing... point of view? if that makes any sense

One more question. SPOILER

After Kurze fights that daemon and leaves the warp, what planet is he on? Still Ultramar? Is there a story about him getting off planet? or are we to assume that he is still there causing chaos? Cause in the audio book with the censured dude and Rowboat talking about changing the space marines, Rowboat doesn't seem to be searching for Kurze, something that would be number 1 on MY list of things to do...

So where is he? has that story been told? post unremembered?

He's still on Macragge.

Who knows; he may think he's dead, or at the very least off world. Who knows. There is that many gaps in the story line at current, until BL start actually wrapping up story threads rather than creating new ones, we don't know.

Scribe of Khorne
24-12-2014, 06:29
... Yes it has. In Unremembered Empire.

Eh? Thats just the first + Curze, unless somehow all the other Night Lords are commited and captured, but again I've started to tune Abnett out...

Inquisitor Engel
28-12-2014, 23:19
Wait... Unremembered empire talks about the rest of the NL AFTER the debacle attack on the DA flagship? It talks about the Dark Angels coming to Ultramar, but I don't remember reading anything about the NL in it...

I thought you were being more specific and less generic.

Curze's HH timeline is as follows right now:



Isstvan - Saves Lorgar from Corax
Savage Weapons - Builds his fort on Tsagualsa, fights with Jonson face to face
Vulkan Lives - Torments Vulcan aboard his flagship while fighting the Thramas Crusade against the Dark Angels - The Thramas Crusade is THREE YEARS
Prince of Crows - Cruzes has his throat sliced open by Jonson during a fight on a planet within the Aegis Sub-sector and after his brain-meld with Sev, heads back onto the DA flagship, the Night Lords aboard are captured and imprisoned. Jonson begins hunting Curze through the ship.
Unremembered Empire - At this point, the Night Lords on board the Invincible Reason are presumably still imprisoned, but Curze is out there somewhere.



I do remember something about a few NL ships in orbit around Sotha in a short story, maybe something Sev was thinking while jailed "the bulk of the NL would probably end up at terra with the warmaster" something like that, but nothing... point of view? if that makes any sense

Other than the Nightfall, the other Night Lords ships jumped away from the battle and likely headed for Terra, or the nearest Traitor beacon. Who's leading them at this point is a good question too. Sev and the other prisoners, are still aboard the IR, but we don't have a POV character on board during UE, so it's tough to judge, Sev certainly thought escape would be easy...


After Kurze fights that daemon and leaves the warp, what planet is he on? Still Ultramar? Is there a story about him getting off planet? or are we to assume that he is still there causing chaos? Cause in the audio book with the censured dude and Rowboat talking about changing the space marines, Rowboat doesn't seem to be searching for Kurze, something that would be number 1 on MY list of things to do...

There's a gap in the timeline. It's possible "Censured" takes place before Jonson and Curze even arrives though (I can't remember enough details to be sure).

Rufiodies
06-01-2015, 11:11
I meant... strategium? by "censored dude" i meant aonid? theil? something like that. and that audio book takes place after UE

Inquisitor Engel
06-01-2015, 16:27
I meant... strategium? by "censored dude" i meant aonid? theil? something like that. and that audio book takes place after UE

"Stratagem" takes place after UE, "Censured" takes place before. "Herald of Sangunius" also takes place after UE and indicates that Curze has still not been found anywhere on Ultramar, despite what I would assume is a hell of a manhunt (and THREE Primarchs on the planet) Sanguinius also makes his sword and runs off in "Herald," perhaps to hunt Curze because being Emperor bores him. I assume HoS and Stratagem take place almost concurrently.

Rufiodies
06-01-2015, 21:17
Did you listen to herald? see I HATE audio books, I read really fast and the slow pace bores me.... but anyways, I'm just wondering cause of you saying "perhaps" and I know in censure they've stepped up the security to almost Terra like levels, so I think it would be hard for Kurze to survive on Macragge even with his "God mode" on, plus with almost every legion having some presence on the planet SOMEONE would have found him, perhaps the wolves or white scars, maybe the raven guard, and they don't have anything better to do. I'd like to see a novel about a team being formed from the bits and pieces to hunt Kurze, and watch as Kurze leads them in circles killing them slowly and driving them mad in the process...
But anyways, off topic, I just wondered cause after the battle with the daemon, Kurze drops outta the warp and it doesn't say where he is, maybe he doesn't even know? I would assume the same planet but its the warp? who knows?

Scribe of Khorne
07-01-2015, 04:14
I'm almost positive he's back on Ultramar or where they where in that book.