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Kasekhem
21-03-2014, 23:48
Okay folks, so I've narrowed down my next army to either ogre kingdoms or lizardmen. I recognize that I'll likely be picking up my second option sometime in the distant future, but the upcoming purchase of my first house will make finances tight for sometime to come. Both armies hit most of my essentials; 1) aesthetics, 2) most models available in plastic, 3) updated models or dated models still look reasonably cool, 4) participation in every game phase, 5) reasonably competitive, and 6) large critters. So, the cool factor (i.e. looks) accounts for about 60% of my decision. I'd like to know what your thoughts, reservations, experiences, etc are regarding these armies. More specifically, how viable are these armies for different builds and the 'joy factor' in playing these armies long-term. Are ogres one hit wonders that grow tiresome, do lizardmen have too close of a style to my high elves. Any help you can provide would be appreciated.

Ratbeast
22-03-2014, 05:58
Ogres are most likely cheaper, they run forward and do a lot of damage, their pretty fun to play, and also have access to some cool units, tyrants aren't worth it, slaughtermasters the way to go, lvl 4 combat monster anyway, who needs a pure melee lord lol, big cannons on powerful chariots (id take as many of these babies as possible), don't forget cheap redirectors, SABRETUSK (best unit ever I think lol, 21 points I think in units of 1 lol). Some nasty unit choices, Ironguts are a great core, given a magic banner and you can go deathstar easy, I flogged a lot of deamons and dark elves with such a unit.

Lizardmen have uber dinosaurs!!!!!!

quietus1986
22-03-2014, 11:43
lizardman If its for the look more painting liberty in the painting collars. And who dosn't thing a gaint lizards and dinasors with big ass stone clubs an aztec wapons aren't cool.

palm
22-03-2014, 13:56
Love both, Ogres are good if you don't want to carry around lots of models.

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Spiney Norman
22-03-2014, 14:35
Okay folks, so I've narrowed down my next army to either ogre kingdoms or lizardmen. I recognize that I'll likely be picking up my second option sometime in the distant future, but the upcoming purchase of my first house will make finances tight for sometime to come. Both armies hit most of my essentials; 1) aesthetics, 2) most models available in plastic, 3) updated models or dated models still look reasonably cool, 4) participation in every game phase, 5) reasonably competitive, and 6) large critters. So, the cool factor (i.e. looks) accounts for about 60% of my decision.

The question is which do you prefer the look of, if there's nothing in it for you then fair enough, I chose lizards as my first army because the models and the army concept (dinosaurs!) was awesome, in contrast painting an army of oversized fat men has never really appealed to me at all, but that is largely down to taste.


I'd like to know what your thoughts, reservations, experiences, etc are regarding these armies. More specifically, how viable are these armies for different builds and the 'joy factor' in playing these armies long-term. Are ogres one hit wonders that grow tiresome, do lizardmen have too close of a style to my high elves. Any help you can provide would be appreciated.

I've no reason to think that either army would grow tiresome, Lizardmen have a better balanced army book, in fact you can use just about everything in the list (possibly excepting the troglodon) and compete at a fairly high level. Ogres on the other hand are one of the worst balanced books of the edition with high powered units standing alongside never-taken ones, so if your primary motivation is models you might want to check which camp your favourite models fall into.

As a direct result, ogres have the ability to be more powerful than Lizardmen (if you exclusively take the more powerful choices).

And to set your mind at rest, Lizardmen are really nothing at all like high elves, about the only thing they have in common is the colour blue. One of the great advantages I find with Lizardmen is that the current book has a lot of different ways to build the army, and they all work equally well. Whether you want a Saurus phalanx or a skink cloud, or a dinosaur stampede, all of them are possible, and viable strategies. I've been playing Lizardmen for 3 editions and I haven't got bored of them yet.

Hudson Gameover
22-03-2014, 22:38
Id say ogres because I find lizardmen very boring to play with.
Plus ogres have so much modeling potential and making and painting maneaters is very fun.

NemoSD
22-03-2014, 22:58
Ogres are most likely cheaper, they run forward and do a lot of damage, their pretty fun to play, and also have access to some cool units, tyrants aren't worth it, slaughtermasters the way to go, lvl 4 combat monster anyway, who needs a pure melee lord lol, big cannons on powerful chariots (id take as many of these babies as possible), don't forget cheap redirectors, SABRETUSK (best unit ever I think lol, 21 points I think in units of 1 lol). Some nasty unit choices, Ironguts are a great core, given a magic banner and you can go deathstar easy, I flogged a lot of deamons and dark elves with such a unit.

Lizardmen have uber dinosaurs!!!!!!

I am a fan of Ogres. It was mentioned in this thread that they have some forgettable units, which is true, but it is not the rule. Pretty much, giants and Yehtees have a hard time finding a place. I have seen every other choice used to success.

Tyrants are not a waste as Ratbeast suggested, and a tanky Tyrant in any unit is going to be tough. SM offers the Interwebs Must Have Lvl 4, but if you want to use any lore other then Great maw (Which is an amazing lore by the way) you have to bay a butcher tax. I run a Tyrant with 1-2 Firebellies which is potent as it allows a hellheart and a dispell scroll.

Overall, Ogres are pretty amazing, and hit like a tone of bricks, wielding a ton of bricks.

Kasekhem
23-03-2014, 07:13
Wow, thanks for the great feedback folks. I can't say that I'm any closer to making a decision. Each person who weighed in on their preference made a compelling argument. On the plus side, at least I narrowed it down to two armies. I collected some of the main themes below.

Positives:
Ogres- low model count, customization opportunities, some amazing units, possibly easier to field on a budget.
Lizardmen- A variety of effective builds, dinosaurs, balanced army book

Maybe this is a strange question to ask, but are these armies fun to play against?

NemoSD
23-03-2014, 07:31
Ogres, while having a few absurd powerbuilds, have enough options to allow really good, fun, competitive lists. They will normally challenge your opponent without making victory unobtainable. Don't get me wrong, Ogres have some pretty disgusting lists, but those are not fun to play unless your sole mission is to win.

quietus1986
23-03-2014, 09:02
They are both fun to play. But Lizardman are more fun to play against in my opinion. But that might be becose allot of ogres players around heir are power players. Juist stay away from the "power lists" and youl be fine.

SpanielBear
23-03-2014, 10:50
You don't even need to avoid power lists necessarily, playing to win is not a crime in of itself. What I would say is make sure your army list is fun when you first make it, then if you want to play in tournaments and the like expand it later.
And what is a 'fun' list is a bit of a nebulous concept. The best advice I can think is buy an army/models that you like, that you want to paint, or think are cool, or you have a fluffy background for. The other thing is to try and make sure that neither you nor the opponent can be certain who will win when the battle starts. If both players feel they have a chance to win or lose, the game will be close and exciting.

thesoundofmusica
23-03-2014, 13:57
If painting is any factor at all, thats another + for lizardmen I'd say. You can just go nuts with color scheme on lizardmen and you cant really go wrong unless trying hard ;)
Ogres have lots of so-so looking boring fleshy parts and will likely take more work to look as good.

boli
23-03-2014, 14:34
Coming from someone who had recently painted a lot of half naked beastmen; from a painting point if view lizard men will be much better to paint ;)

innerwolf
23-03-2014, 17:09
My advice affects a pretty marginal part of building an army, but if you are one of the players who likes to create background for characters and identify with them, I would never recomend Lizardmen.

You characters are half-comatose, alien-minded Jabba the Hut-s, the rough equivalent of (scaled) goblins and single minded, dim-witted, characterless killing machines.

Not very inspiring IMHO

palm
23-03-2014, 20:01
My advice affects a pretty marginal part of building an army, but if you are one of the players who likes to create background for characters and identify with them, I would never recomend Lizardmen.

You characters are half-comatose, alien-minded Jabba the Hut-s, the rough equivalent of (scaled) goblins and single minded, dim-witted, characterless killing machines.

Not very inspiring IMHO

You tell that to kroq-gar.


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innerwolf
23-03-2014, 23:37
You tell that to kroq-gar.


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I concede, he is the odd one out

Terrenord
24-03-2014, 19:09
Ogres are great if you're too lazy to paint lots of models and want all your opponents to hate you. Seriously overpowered army unless your opponent brings a specific ogre killing build. No one calls you a beardy power gamer when you lay down lizards.

Horus38
24-03-2014, 19:29
My advice affects a pretty marginal part of building an army, but if you are one of the players who likes to create background for characters and identify with them, I would never recomend Lizardmen.

You characters are half-comatose, alien-minded Jabba the Hut-s, the rough equivalent of (scaled) goblins and single minded, dim-witted, characterless killing machines.

Not very inspiring IMHO

Got to disagree with everything in this post. If you actually bother to read the lizardmen background you'll find the Slann are amongst the most active creatures in the world from the amount of planning and battling chaos they do (both in the mundane world and meta-physically). Also Saurus are not dim-witted, again anyone who actually reads any of their background would know this. They are specifically bred at a genetic level for war and intrinsically understand complex military tactics such as refused flanks and defense in depth.

boli
24-03-2014, 20:05
They are specifically bred at a genetic level for war and intrinsically understand complex military tactics such as refused flanks and defense in depth.

They just can't tie their own shoelaces ;)

Horus38
24-03-2014, 20:40
They just can't tie their own shoelaces ;)

Good thing the Old Ones foresaw such a shortcoming and opted for the shoeless variety ;)

innerwolf
24-03-2014, 21:03
Got to disagree with everything in this post. If you actually bother to read the lizardmen background you'll find the Slann are amongst the most active creatures in the world from the amount of planning and battling chaos they do (both in the mundane world and meta-physically). Also Saurus are not dim-witted, again anyone who actually reads any of their background would know this. They are specifically bred at a genetic level for war and intrinsically understand complex military tactics such as refused flanks and defense in depth.

Ok, they are dim-witted for everything except war. Try to make scaly, barely talking Rambos interesting as characters outside of battle. Maybe Slann aren't as bad as I painted them, but even if they are multitasking in the metaphysical plane you have to admit they won't be interacting more than 5 minutes each year (decade?) with the rest of your background characters.

I played Lizardmen a whole edition, just because I have a different view on the background you shouldn't assume I don't know it.

Horus38
24-03-2014, 22:35
I played Lizardmen a whole edition, just because I have a different view on the background you shouldn't assume I don't know it.

Different view sure, but the book says as an almost direct quote "saurus are not dim witted". I see where you're coming from, but I get annoyed when people paint them in this very slow ignorant light and the book clearly says something to the contrary.

innerwolf
24-03-2014, 23:25
Different view sure, but the book says as an almost direct quote "saurus are not dim witted". I see where you're coming from, but I get annoyed when people paint them in this very slow ignorant light and the book clearly says something to the contrary.

I willlingly take back "dim witted". But think about it: what would you think of an awesome football player who was a master tactician but couldn't pull two sentences together when chatting with you in a bar (at least not about football)? That's how I see Saurus.

PD. No offence meant for sportheads, it's just an example.

Horus38
25-03-2014, 00:10
I willlingly take back "dim witted". But think about it: what would you think of an awesome football player who was a master tactician but couldn't pull two sentences together when chatting with you in a bar (at least not about football)? That's how I see Saurus.

PD. No offence meant for sportheads, it's just an example.

Oh definitely, they're like Rain Man in that regard.

Moss
25-03-2014, 01:25
Oh definitely, they're like Rain Man in that regard.
Except that Rain Man has personality. Saurus have none.

Kasekhem
25-03-2014, 02:28
I can see the appeal of an army having character, both from a modeling standpoint and the occasional flights of fancy where you envision yourself as the leader of your host. What concerns me is a lot of statements concerning the inherent power of an ogre army. While appealing to have a competitive army, as a newer player I see myself using several auto-includes and tolerating the inevitable eye-rolling. I'm leaning in the direction of ogres, but have concerns that I'll have to justify every build or allow every victory to be attributed to the unit's inherent power. What crosses the line? In a 2400pt army would the following be too much: 1 stonehorn, 1 cannon, 9 ironguts, 6 leadbelchers, unit of scouting maneaters, 3 mournfang, 2 sabretusks, slaughtermaster w/lore of heavens, bruiser bsb, butcher w/lore of GM, and a gorger or some trapper gnoblars. Possibly taking either the hellheart or dragon banner, but avoiding taking both.

NemoSD
25-03-2014, 02:59
I can see the appeal of an army having character, both from a modeling standpoint and the occasional flights of fancy where you envision yourself as the leader of your host. What concerns me is a lot of statements concerning the inherent power of an ogre army. While appealing to have a competitive army, as a newer player I see myself using several auto-includes and tolerating the inevitable eye-rolling. I'm leaning in the direction of ogres, but have concerns that I'll have to justify every build or allow every victory to be attributed to the unit's inherent power. What crosses the line? In a 2400pt army would the following be too much: 1 stonehorn, 1 cannon, 9 ironguts, 6 leadbelchers, unit of scouting maneaters, 3 mournfang, 2 sabretusks, slaughtermaster w/lore of heavens, bruiser bsb, butcher w/lore of GM, and a gorger or some trapper gnoblars. Possibly taking either the hellheart or dragon banner, but avoiding taking both.

People bitch, and moan, and whine. One poster in this very thread made it clear that he thinks ogre players are lazy and only want an easy win. Painting ogres well takes a bit of patience, as they have a lot of freehanding such as tribal paint and tattoos. Furthermore, they have some wonderful modeling opportunities, which takes far more energy then painting.

As far as justifying your army. Build what you find fun. If they are going to bitch about the 'inherent' power level of your army, then even if you took a list of Wood Elves and won the fight, they would complain. It will be their dice, they hurt their toe, a ghost was giving them bad advice, etc... do not make a choice based on those individuals. I've never once had a player whine to me if they lost because my army is to powerful, and I play Imperial Guard as well as Ogres.

Ogres are tons of fun, and are a very unique army in the warhammer world. If you feel like going ogres, that go for it.

By and by, the list you provided is not terrible broken, and is all around decent.

MOMUS
25-03-2014, 08:15
No one calls you a beardy power gamer when you lay down lizards.


You've obviously never been called a LMC then ;)