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View Full Version : does a unit on witch elves with a cauldron of blood have some fancy ward save?



xarxes
24-03-2014, 16:49
So i was playing a 2,500 point game vs dark elves with my high elves yesterday. It was only my third game of warhammer fantasy and something came up that i didnt understand. I casted flame cage from teclis against a unit of 30 witch elves with a cauldron of blood. i got the spell off and he had a failed dispell attempt. he then said the witches have a 3+ save and rolled a d6. he rolled a two and the spell went through. i was kind of puzzled. i then cast wind blast on the same unit and got it off. he rolled a d6 again and got a 5 and said the spell had no effect. that just sounded off to me. im pretty new to fantasy and he is just gettin back into it so our grasp on some rules arent the greatest. if the witch elves and cauldron had a 3+ ward save would he not have to roll it after my rolls for the spell?

theunwantedbeing
24-03-2014, 17:02
Sounds like he had the shadow cloak (fairly sure that;s the name) on a character in the unit.
That gives a 3+ ward vs shooting & spells.

Although it's against the damage from the spell, not the spell itself.
So it seems your opponent hasn't fully understood how ward saves work yet.

boli
24-03-2014, 17:09
The cauldron has a 4+ ward ward save and magic resistance (1). Spells targeting the cauldron of blood (and only the cauldron of blood) give a bonus to their ward save of 1 due to the magic resistance.

The unit and the models on the cauldron of blood have a 5+ ward save and NO magic resistance.

You can target either the Witch Elves or the cauldron of blood when shooting / casting spells; if you target the cauldron of blood you roll to wound as normal (against T6) BEFORE they roll the ward save(s) the rest of the spell effects still occur regardless of the outcome. (So the unit would still be pushed back and have the flame cage around them... a pretty nasty combo).

Having magic resistance does *not* mean he has another chance to dispel... it just improves your chances or surviving the damage (but not effects) of a spell once it is cast.

I must admit I am unsure about the rules of the models on the unit - the skaven book is much clearer with this.

bigbiggles
25-03-2014, 01:38
Doesn't magic resist share with the whole unit. Or is the cauldron special?

xarxes
25-03-2014, 02:40
Thanks, guys! the way he had it set up was 15 witch elves on either side in base contact with the cauldron. after reading the rules for the cauldron i know it is a warmachine. my next question is his setup of 15 witch elves on either side of the cauldron and them moving and charging as one unit a thing? can 30 witch elves join the cauldron and they all be in the same unit? would the the two groups of 15 witches have to be one inch away and they all move as seperate unit? can a war machine even charge? if that's possible then it would share it's magic resistance with the entire unit, bigbiggles.

forseer of fates
25-03-2014, 03:04
Yes the mr passes to the entire unit so witchelves and hag get a 4 up vs spells and the cauldron gets 3 up:)

Knifeparty
25-03-2014, 03:48
Ok, the Cauldron is a Chariot that has to be taken as a mount by either a Death Hag, or Crone Hellbron.

It can move by its self, or it can join a unit.

The Cauldron has a 6+ save, 4+ ward save and Magic resistance (1)

If the Cauldron joins a unit it must stay as close to the centre of the unit as possible. It also gives any unit it joins a 6+ ward save, 5+ ward save if it is a unit of Witch Elves. It allows all models within 6" to re-roll failed to wound rolls as long as they have the murderous prowess special rule. It can also give a single unit within 12" frenzy (or super frenzy if they are already frenzied) with a bound spell.

If you target the unit with a spell that damages them like a Magic Missile or Direct Damage spell, the Cauldron will get a 3+ ward save against any wounds caused because Magic Resistance adds +1 to your ward save to save against magical attacks. All the other witches in the unit ( including the Death Hag on top) get 4+ ward save because they have a 5+ ward save from the Cauldron and +1 from the magic resistance.

The downside to the Cauldron is that it can be targeted by enemy shooting and magic very easily and will not get a Look out sir roll to save it from things like cannon balls and bolt throwers.

Blkc57
25-03-2014, 06:33
It might be possible that your "friend" was an old DE player, got the new book and saw that Helbron can now ride a cauldron. He simply put Cron Helbron on a cauldron and imagined she still had her old ability to cancel any spell cast at her or her unit on a dice roll. I never immediately assume cheating when you can more easily ascertain that someone simply just doesn't know the rules. When given the choice between ignorance and malice, just remember that ignorance is far more common.

Liquidedust
31-03-2014, 20:11
Ok, the Cauldron is a Chariot that has to be taken as a mount by either a Death Hag, or Crone Hellbron.

It can move by its self, or it can join a unit.

The Cauldron has a 6+ save, 4+ ward save and Magic resistance (1)

If the Cauldron joins a unit it must stay as close to the centre of the unit as possible. It also gives any unit it joins a 6+ ward save, 5+ ward save if it is a unit of Witch Elves. It allows all models within 6" to re-roll failed to wound rolls as long as they have the murderous prowess special rule. It can also give a single unit within 12" frenzy (or super frenzy if they are already frenzied) with a bound spell.

If you target the unit with a spell that damages them like a Magic Missile or Direct Damage spell, the Cauldron will get a 3+ ward save against any wounds caused because Magic Resistance adds +1 to your ward save to save against magical attacks. All the other witches in the unit ( including the Death Hag on top) get 4+ ward save because they have a 5+ ward save from the Cauldron and +1 from the magic resistance.

The downside to the Cauldron is that it can be targeted by enemy shooting and magic very easily and will not get a Look out sir roll to save it from things like cannon balls and bolt throwers.

The cauldron cannot be singled out with BS shooting though, and its pretty much only death magic that can single it out in regards to spells.

Rake
01-04-2014, 13:45
Ah, yes. The Cauldron. How pleasantly unclear it is in the rules.

Jim
04-04-2014, 12:47
I suppose a good piece of advice would be to always ask your opponent to show you the rule he is referring to in either his army book or the BRB.

That way both of you are happy that the rule is being played as intended and there is no problems later on...

Jim

Piercefierce
08-04-2014, 08:31
how can a bolt thrower hit the cauldron. I thought they distribute damage like normal bs shooting?

boli
08-04-2014, 08:42
Isn't the cauldron a large target? (Rule, not the model?)

Rakariel
08-04-2014, 10:51
It might be possible that your "friend" was an old DE player, got the new book and saw that Helbron can now ride a cauldron. He simply put Cron Helbron on a cauldron and imagined she still had her old ability to cancel any spell cast at her or her unit on a dice roll. I never immediately assume cheating when you can more easily ascertain that someone simply just doesn't know the rules. When given the choice between ignorance and malice, just remember that ignorance is far more common.
If I am not completely mistaken (I don`t have the book on me atm), Crone still has an ability like that. I think she can cancle a spell directed at her (or the unit) through a dice roll. I will look it up once I am home.

boli
08-04-2014, 12:16
Isn't the cauldron a large target? (Rule, not the model?)

Actually looking into it further you *CAN* target the Cauldron directly.

Page 99 in the small rule book

... cannot hit a character in a combined unit if there are more than five rank and file models from the same troop type...

Cauldron is a chariot, Witch Elves are Infantry so you can target chariot directly... thought it was stupid you could not (especially as screaming bell / furnace you can target it directly)

Maetco
08-04-2014, 15:44
Actually looking into it further you *CAN* target the Cauldron directly.

Page 99 in the small rule book

... cannot hit a character in a combined unit if there are more than five rank and file models from the same troop type...

Cauldron is a chariot, Witch Elves are Infantry so you can target chariot directly... thought it was stupid you could not (especially as screaming bell / furnace you can target it directly)

I think you should've continued further with your reading. Yes one can hit the Cauldron with shooting that is distributed normally (as shooting) but it's the controlling player who is actually hit.

Lord Inquisitor
08-04-2014, 16:33
Yep, unless it is a template attack, the cauldron need not be hit unless every model is hit first by the same attack. This is true of any character joining a unit of different type.

Cauldron is a mess in terms of rules. But yes, it seems that the cauldron passes it's MR onto the unit (certainly it does if its character is alive). As knifeparty says if a unit of witches is hit by a spell, they will get a 4+ ward (6+ +1 for cauldron +1 for MR(1) also from the cauldron) and the cauldron itself will get a 3+.

boli
08-04-2014, 19:24
That's annoying, should be the same as Screaming Bell rules

Montegue
09-04-2014, 03:13
The cauldron cannot be singled out with BS shooting though, and its pretty much only death magic that can single it out in regards to spells.

I was talking about this the other day at my flgs. If you read the rules on shooting, I think it actually can be singled out.

Lord Inquisitor
09-04-2014, 14:42
What exactly are you referring to here Monty? I can't see it. Surely it work like any other character?

Davemaddocks
15-04-2014, 21:29
Ok here's a question does ballistic based shooting get +1 to hit against a unit containing a cauldron due to it being a large target.

Blkc57
15-04-2014, 21:30
Ok here's a question does ballistic based shooting get +1 to hit against a unit containing a cauldron due to it being a large target.

You don't get a +1 against Large targets anymore in 8th edition. All that large target rule does is remove any cover penalty for shooting at one if it tries to hide behind obstacles and terrain.

Invincible Sword Goddess
15-04-2014, 22:52
You don't get a +1 against Large targets anymore in 8th edition. All that large target rule does is remove any cover penalty for shooting at one if it tries to hide behind obstacles and terrain.

Not quite. You can still claim cover from terrain, you just can't claim the cover bonus for touching an obstacle that conceals less than 50% of your model. You can (arguably) even claim cover from obstacles so long as they still conceal 50% of the model.