PDA

View Full Version : Unpainted armies



Colonel Alexi
25-03-2014, 08:25
Ok so there's something that's been bugging me for a while about games workshop stores these days, or at least my local one. And that annoyance is unpainted armies. Now before I get into this, I'd like to clarify I completely understand someone might want to test out a new unit/ equipment before buying, painting etc. And for those instances I'd like to ignore.

The problem I have is with whole swathes of unpainted armies at my store. I remember when the store rules used to be 3 colours, undercoat doesn't count, for you to be able to play with your models on the table. I have stuck to this rule for the past 10+ years I've played, I saw it as an excellent rule. Now I know I'm not an amazing or even a good painter, and quality isn't something I'm here to talk about. I understand and accept not everyone, myself included, can paint to amazing standards and look that's fine with me. But what I hate seeing is armies of black, or grey plastic, or even worse not even assembled armies. I can't remember the last time I saw someone at my LGS with a painted army, in fact I've even seen some people have whole units of plastic bases, or just legs glued to a base.

This is what annoys me, look I spent a lot of effort and time to paint my models yes I admit they're nowhere near evy metal or anything amazing, but I put my time and effort into it. I find it a bit rude that when playing a game my opponent can't be bothered to put the same time or effort into it. This whole hobby is about time and effort, its not something quick and easy, nor should it be. To me there's nothing more amazing and cool seeing two painted armies facing against each other on a painted battlefield. I just don't understand why this has been thrown out the door for armies of black and grey, at least locally.

Just wanted to rant a bit and see if anyone else finds it as annoying/rude when your opponent has an army of black or grey against your painted armies.

stroller
25-03-2014, 08:39
Undoubtedly painted armies do tend to look better on the table than unpainted. However, my 40K is not necessarily your 40K. When I play "Business Game" I don't feel the need to paint up the mineheads, trucks, barges, and ships models needed to play. It's not rude either - you CHOOSE to paint as well as you can - as do I - and it bugs me that my son can paint better - and faster - than I can. But someone fielding a grey army probably just wants to play - I would assume (always dangerous) that playing matters more to them than painting.

shelfunit.
25-03-2014, 08:41
Not rude in any way, shape, or form. There are myriad reasons someone doesn't have a painted army, and whilst your own view of the wargaming hobby is that every army must be painted (I too prefer painted armies), other people often don't. Many people just like the wargaming aspect - the tactical elements (limited as they are), and the strategy (such as there is) of playing the game - to the pure gamer (defined as someone who's sole interest is playing the game) painting just gets in the way of playing time.

Colonel Alexi
25-03-2014, 08:51
Thanks for the answers I'm just interested in other people's opinions. I don't mean to attack others, and sorry if my post sounded like that

Tarax
25-03-2014, 09:27
Besides the arguments given, I think assembled and painted models provide a better gaming experience. I don't mean esthetically, but and assembled model shows which weapon it's wielding, while a painted model will show which side (or unit) it is on.
Unassembled and unpainted models will cause a lot of problems, simply because you don't know what they are. Which goes for both players.

Zaonite
25-03-2014, 09:36
For many of us outside of wargames we do have jobs and significant others (sometimes kids) to keep happy.

Some people I have met have still got boxes of unbuilt minis because of time constraints due to the above reasons. Wargaming is a hobby, first and foremost, and I know you want to enjoy every aspect of it, just like me. Painted armies, fluff, building models.
I know many people who just buy the models to paint, others buy all the books to read but don't play, others just to play.
What I'm trying to say is that initially the wargames hobby is about playing the game, let them get on with it and don't let the non-painted issue bother you.

I will agree with you however, that a model should be fully built when on the table.

I would love to have a fully painted army, (it's one thing I intend to do this year), but I have no time because of commission paint work, actual work and keeping the missus happy. I have painted loads of full armies, just not my own sadly.

(no personal implications intended, it's just different people want different things out of the hobby)

Colonel Alexi
25-03-2014, 09:42
I have personal commitments, significant others, work etc. outside and I hope you didn't mean your post as a personal attack against me.

I understand others have different commitments, but that doesn't explain why month after month I see the same person with just legs glued to a base and say that's a necron infantry unit.

Zingraff
25-03-2014, 09:47
I prefer playing against painted armies, but my current DKoK army is not painted at the moment, even though I'm an above average painter. I don't really like playing against miniatures with a black undercoat, because the black hides too much detail, however a white or grey undercoat is okay with me.

I've collected my army through the autumn and winter, and assembling FW kits is a lot of work. I decided early on that I'd rather have a large unpainted force over a small finished force, for practical reasons. I intend to start painting my miniatures soon and I've purchased an airbrush which should make that job easier and more enjoyable. Another reason for delaying painting was the lack of sun light during winter.

Acephale
25-03-2014, 10:46
I guess I don't mind someone fielding a partly-painted army or even an unpainted one once in a while, since there could be several reasons for this - mainly having a new army or trying a new list with completely new models.

However, I don't understand how someone could commit himself to this hobby and never find the time to paint his army even to the lowest standard, and yet somehow have the time to play regularly. To me, painting is an integral part of miniature wargaming because, after all, it's all about - yeah, you guessed it - miniatures. Fielding awesome-looking models in a cool landscape is part of the whole thing. If you don't care about this aspect at all and just want pure strategy you can play chess or computer games or something, which also offers more balance and considerably less time investment than WH.

After all, even though painting a 3000 point army to the highest possible standard is quite demanding, it doesn't take that long to just basecoat your models and put some contrasting colours on them, which goes a long way compared to unpainted or even unassembled (really? WTF?) armies. It's not just about you, after all. You play with other people, and someone who spent countless hours on making his army look cool will probably enjoy the game far more if you show up with at least some colours on your models. Assuming it's cool to keep fielding unpainted stuff against an opponent with a nice-looking army is perhaps not rude, but very egocentrical.

As for the whole "people have other commitments" argument, well... It doesn't mean a thing really since it's all about priorities. I'm married with a kid and unless I have a lot of work to do (I work from home mainly) I find the time to paint almost every day because I enjoy it. Of course this means less time in front of the TV, computer or whatever, but you don't really get yourself a hobby to free up more spare time, now do you?

Herzlos
25-03-2014, 11:47
As much as I try, I don't think I've ever played a game where my army has been fully painted. Purely down to lack of time (I'm a slow painter). I always at least try and make an effort though and usually prime in the key base colour so they tend to look alright pretty quickly.

It's nice to use fully painted stuff; but for a lot of folk that just isn't practical and I'd rather play with unpainted than not play at all.

I'm not as sure about unbuilt stuff though; proxying is fair enough on occasion (I'm doing so tonight as my opponent wants a bigger game than I have available) but I'd at least expect to be using mini's that are assembled enough to identify (for instance, I've used a Sentinel that doesn't have a pilot yet, but it's got all the appropriate weapons on).

Greyshadow
25-03-2014, 12:19
I do know what you mean - my gaming group has a self imposed no unpainted models rule. We haven't broken it yet either in five years (!) We are more collectors and painters though and play only four or five games per year. It gives us a real incentive to put in the time and get our painting done. I think I am one of the few long time gamers out there who doesn't have loads of unpainted models.

I do think that GW stores should allow unpainted models though as they should be focused on helping those just starting out. Un-assembled models? Yes, legs on a base is probably pushing it a bit!

MiyamatoMusashi
25-03-2014, 12:24
The big unspoken secret of wargaming is that we don't actually need to use models at all. We could literally play these games with bits of cardboard cut to the right size for the base, if necessary sellotaped to a card rectangle standing upright to represent the height. You could field an entire army for pennies. (Some people do exactly that). Sure, some people (myself included!) like to use models, and treat them as a work of art; but for "pure gamers", the models are an expensive annoyance.

That's obviously something that model manufacturers and shops are keen to ensure does not become common practice (and those aesthetically-minded like myself would prefer it not to either), so it amazes me when shops, be they GWs or FLGSs, allow the use of unpainted models; because if you can use unpainted models, one wonders, why do you actually need to buy models at all? Why not just bits of card? Of course, I can understand relaxing those rules as appropriate to encourage people to get involved - say, you can use an unpainted model once, but the next time you use it, it must be painted, or something - but from the shops' point of view, I can well understand why they'd want to discourage people starting down that slippery slope. (There is also a secondary reason for them, which is that a stranger coming into the shop for the first time and seeing two armies of grey plastic on the table, are less likely to be blown away by the hobby than two painted armies).

Now, all that is from the point of view of the shop. God knows I've used unpainted models (and proxies) often enough in my own games. Clearly I prefer the modelling and painting side of the hobby, so (eventually!) having a painted army is important to me. Not everyone feels the same way; but if I turned up to a game to find that my opponent had built his army out of bits of cardboard (or, as someone noted above, a pair of legs glued to a base and called a Necron Warrior), I'd be wary. Not because I think there's anything morally wrong in his choice, nor that I feel able in any way able to demand that some other person spends potentially hundreds of pounds of money he might not have on models that he doesn't strictly need; but simply because people want different things out of a wargame, and someone whose only interest is in the game itself (and for whom the models are an expensive annoyance) may not find much common ground with me, for whom the game and the models and the fluff are all important to a greater or lesser degree.

So. I don't personally get annoyed by unpainted models, in fact I often field them myself. Neither do I get annoyed by proxies or unassembled models, though (particularly if used more than once) I do consider them a red flag that we may have different goals from the game we're about to play. But I do recognise that different people want different things from the hobby - and without for a moment suggesting that either extreme is right or wrong, people at opposite ends of the spectrum may be better off avoiding games with each other as the experience is unlikely to be very satisfying for either. (And I do get amazed when shops allow the use of unpainted models. They're basically saying, "you see all these things we sell? You don't really need any of them. Uh... want to buy anything today?")

baransiege
25-03-2014, 13:30
As much as I try, I don't think I've ever played a game where my army has been fully painted. Purely down to lack of time (I'm a slow painter). I always at least try and make an effort though and usually prime in the key base colour so they tend to look alright pretty quickly.

It's nice to use fully painted stuff; but for a lot of folk that just isn't practical and I'd rather play with unpainted than not play at all.

I'm not as sure about unbuilt stuff though; proxying is fair enough on occasion (I'm doing so tonight as my opponent wants a bigger game than I have available) but I'd at least expect to be using mini's that are assembled enough to identify (for instance, I've used a Sentinel that doesn't have a pilot yet, but it's got all the appropriate weapons on).

I'm pretty much the same - takes me quite a bit of time to paint a model and school work and work work have always had to come first. And I'm not willing to do a poor paint job just to rush the models out. Haven't fielded or played against a fully painted army once in over 20 years, probably won't for at least the next couple either. I love painting but it is very time consuming.

Plenty of times I've played with or against empty bases too - the general rule of thumb we have in our gaming group is that front two ranks must be assembled but apart from that doesn't matter. For some it's an issue of cost, for others it's an issue of time. I prefer empty bases to unit fillers which make determining template coverage a pain.

zoggin-eck
25-03-2014, 13:38
If I could do it all again, I'd do what I do now with new models that I won't get around to painting for a while. Undercoat right away, drybrush a dark shade of the most useful colour for the model (usually red/brown in my case, or a chapter colour for Marines etc.) followed by a lighter shade of the same colour. This gives enough detail to look OK on the table and is better than metal/plastic/resin, or those black undercoated armies where you can't make out the details of individual models. This lets me take my time going back and filling in the skin, weapons and so forth. If I never finish the unit, it at least looks OK for the time being and is easy to go back to later on.

Something as simple as two-tone drybrused marines with the bases textured with another two-tone drybrush over black would have left me with much more useful models later on as my painting improved (those "finished" armies years ago are utterly useless now and cause me to buy so much simple-green :(). It takes little effort or skill, can be done on autopilot while watching the telly, a movie, cooking dinner or whatever and very little expense (a couple of pots can be stretched pretty far, even better, use appropriate artist's paints).

In fact, the only reason someone not especially interested in painting shouldn't use a similar approach is if they plan to sell the models later, or frequently buy and sell/change armies. To be honest, if that were the case with me, I'd just get some mates who are happy to proxy/use tokens/use printed cardboard for everything anyway. GW of course used to do and encourage this with 1st, 2nd and 3rd edition Fantasy. The 4th Fantasy/2nd 40k/Epic 40k route of using card for big expensive models when starting an army is cool with me.

jack da greenskin
25-03-2014, 15:23
Yeah this annoys me too. Practice games/trying things out/waiting for stuff to finish etc, are all fine reasons to play with unpainted minis, poor terrain or any other number of distractions. But, if you're not striving to play with 2 fully painted armies on a lovely detailed board, I think youre in the wrong hobby - You might as well play some computer strategy games if your overall goal isnt this.

It really rustles me aswell when people who paint poorly (Uncaringly is perhaps a better word, taking little pride in their models) or play with the aformentionned legs on bases, try telling me historical/mantic/3rd party models are "****" and that no-one should be allowed to use them in a game of 40k or fantasy.

I rarely play with people using unpainted armies anymore. When I do play, its at one of several good clubs, or at tournaments (Normally KoW tournaments) where people take care and pride in what they're using. Its visually nicer and I enjoy myself more.

Herzlos
25-03-2014, 16:23
If I could do it all again, I'd do what I do now with new models that I won't get around to painting for a while. Undercoat right away, drybrush a dark shade of the most useful colour for the model (usually red/brown in my case, or a chapter colour for Marines etc.) followed by a lighter shade of the same colour. This gives enough detail to look OK on the table and is better than metal/plastic/resin, or those black undercoated armies where you can't make out the details of individual models. This lets me take my time going back and filling in the skin, weapons and so forth. If I never finish the unit, it at least looks OK for the time being and is easy to go back to later on.

That sounds like a lot of work for something that needs re-done later. I've found that a suitable primer colour (like the Army Painter or Plastic Soldier Company ranges) with 1 or 2 block base colours gives you something that looks the part for minimal effort, and allows you to add additional colours as you get the time. That's what I've done with my FOW stuff; they've been primed with the khaki uniform colour and now have skin, helmets, rifles/boots and webbing done (in that order - most striking visuals first), and will be in a game tonight, then later on in the week I'll do the metal work, wash and then flock the bases and I'm done. Since it's 15mm I'm not going into any more detail than that.

f2k
25-03-2014, 20:36
This is a tabletop wargame, not a hobby. Nowhere in the rules does it say that you need to paint your models.

Sure, a fully painted army looks better on the table, but I'd rather have a good game against the "Silver Horde" than a bad game against the "Golden Daemons". In other words, I just want to play and whether or not the armies are painted is immaterial.

IcedCrow
25-03-2014, 20:54
I prefer painted armies. I myself won't ever field an unpainted mini. HOwever, I don't think its rude if someone doesn't want to paint.

In our events - we either have painted re-rolls for painted units, or painted models hate unpainted models special rule - which encourages people to at least slap 3 colors on their models.

Korinov
25-03-2014, 23:30
None of my armies is fully painted. I'm a slow painter. Couple that with a certain tendency to re-paint miniatures I painted years ago when I got into the hobby... I think I'll never finish, to be honest. That said, I always try to, at least, field one fully painted miniature per unit (so your opponent will have a complete idea of what's in front of him).

I have no issues with proxies and the like, provided everything is clearly explained ("this represents that", etc).

Of course I'd love to play games where everything is fully painted. I hope to achieve it one day :)

simonjedi
26-03-2014, 00:25
I don't mind if the army/codex/unit is new or it's a big model like the knights, that's understandable to a large extent - you just want the thing on the tabletop and try it out.

But it is laughably easy to get a good looking unit with the minimum of effort: Army painter, washes ect.

Fizzy
26-03-2014, 02:13
Never fielded a painted army. No time. Got a few painted models but thats it. I love the hobby but I got a busy life.

Abaraxas
26-03-2014, 04:07
I certainly understand that it can be a hard slog to paint a whole, big army- I certainly never got there as a kid.

But 2 painted armies facing off on a good looking table has always been the goal for me at least, I forget who it was but I remember reading a post on here saying (pretty much) that they painted there army for their opponent's enjoyment as much as their own.
I really agree with that.

I'm not looking down my nose at those who play with unpainted armies, I'd still have a game- but nothing's better than painted armies (except beautifully painted)

Colonel Alexi
26-03-2014, 07:15
This is a tabletop wargame, not a hobby. Nowhere in the rules does it say that you need to paint your models.

Sure, a fully painted army looks better on the table, but I'd rather have a good game against the "Silver Horde" than a bad game against the "Golden Daemons". In other words, I just want to play and whether or not the armies are painted is immaterial.

Actually Games workshop is a hobby company specialising in miniatures, they just also happen to sell rules for said miniatures.

Colonel Mayhem
26-03-2014, 08:01
In my area the 40 k guys have a monthly ongoing league/tournament in the local store. The entrance fee is individualized and based on the amount of unpainted models in ones army, making it a great incentive to get the it painted.

f2k
26-03-2014, 08:30
Actually Games workshop is a hobby company specialising in miniatures, they just also happen to sell rules for said miniatures.

Yeah, that's what they like to claim. But in the end, this is simply a tabletop wargame - that's all.

Some might see it as a hobby, collecting, converting, and painting miniatures.

Some might see it as a social event, putting just enough effort into the models to make it clear what's what.

Some might see it as a competitive game, thinking no more about painting the "tokens" they play with than they would think about painting the pieces for a game of chess.

As far as I'm concerned, there's no right or wrong in either of these approaches. As long as I have a fun game, why would I care?

Importman
26-03-2014, 09:31
I don't mind playing against people tying out new units or new players starting out a new army with unpainted models. But if you have been playing for 6 months and is still "proxying" or using under coated miniatures then is just plain laziness.

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk 2

Acephale
26-03-2014, 09:39
This is a tabletop wargame, not a hobby. Nowhere in the rules does it say that you need to paint your models.

Sure, a fully painted army looks better on the table, but I'd rather have a good game against the "Silver Horde" than a bad game against the "Golden Daemons". In other words, I just want to play and whether or not the armies are painted is immaterial.

Sure it's a hobby. It's about miniatures battling other miniatures in a lore-heavy fantasy world, and the rules reflect that. The books and the website are full of model porn, GW sell paints and brushes and model supplies so that people will assemble and paint miniatures, i.e. it's a hobby.

If you don't care about miniatures at all, why spend money on models and army books and go through the hassle of storing and transporting models etc, to play an unbalanced game where the models and the lore always seem to be more important to the devs than perfect balance or competitive gameplay? I mean if all you care about is the game itself, there are surely better and more economical options out there.

f2k
26-03-2014, 09:40
I don't mind playing against people tying out new units or new players starting out a new army with unpainted models. But if you have been playing for 6 months and is still "proxying" or using under coated miniatures then is just plain laziness.

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk 2

Or possibly, they would rather spend the time gaming than painting...

f2k
26-03-2014, 09:50
Sure it's a hobby. It's about miniatures battling other miniatures in a lore-heavy fantasy world, and the rules reflect that. The books and the website are full of model porn, GW sell paints and brushes and model supplies so that people will assemble and paint miniatures, i.e. it's a hobby.

If you don't care about miniatures at all, why spend money on models and army books and go through the hassle of storing and transporting models etc, to play an unbalanced game where the models and the lore always seem to be more important to the devs than perfect balance or competitive gameplay? I mean if all you care about is the game itself, there are surely better and more economical options out there.

Not disagree with you there. But even so, that's the way some see it. I don't understand it either, but that's the way it is.

As for being hobby, it's a hobby in the same way as building and painting scale models are. Or playing golf, for that matter. And yet, I've never heard of a company, making golf clubs, described as a "hobby company".

No, Games Workshop is not a "hobby company", they're a "tabletop wargaming company". For some, it might be a hobby. For others, it's a competitive sport of sorts...

theunwantedbeing
26-03-2014, 10:21
I don't mind unpainted armies, so long as I don't have to play against them.
I don't mind people who cheat, so long as I don't have to play against them. (well I do mind them, but some people just refuse to play properly so it's not worth getting worked up about it)
I don't mind cruddy proxies, so long as I don't have to play against them.

You get the idea, it's one of a few things that deplete my enjoyment of playing the game.

baransiege
26-03-2014, 10:44
But if you have been playing for 6 months and is still "proxying" or using under coated miniatures then is just plain laziness.


Personally I would rather play against an army where the front ranks have been beautifully painted with rear ranks still to be done, than someone who has phoned it in with coloured sprays and washes.

Perfectionism != laziness.

Acephale
26-03-2014, 10:44
Not disagree with you there. But even so, that's the way some see it. I don't understand it either, but that's the way it is.

As for being hobby, it's a hobby in the same way as building and painting scale models are. Or playing golf, for that matter. And yet, I've never heard of a company, making golf clubs, described as a "hobby company".

No, Games Workshop is not a "hobby company", they're a "tabletop wargaming company". For some, it might be a hobby. For others, it's a competitive sport of sorts...

Well GW describe themselves as a company selling "the best miniatures in the world" and in their starter kits and rule books they go to great lengths describing and promoting the collecting and painting aspect of the hob... sorry, tabletop wargaming sports thingy ("It may take a while to amass a large collection of painted figures, but a finished army gloriously arrayed upon a battlefield is a rewarding sight and well worth the effort" - BRB, p.vi). Of course, some people will still treat it as sports or a social arena or whatever, but that doesn't change the fact that Warhammer is centered around miniatures and that those miniatures are designed to be painted. Claiming otherwise is like claiming soccer isn't a sport just because some people primarily play it to meet their friends.

Then again, to each his own of course. I don't mind people playing WH on the naked floor with cardboard or rocks or toothpicks, as long as I don't have to play that way, and as long as that approach does not become the dominant one.

zoggin-eck
26-03-2014, 11:13
That sounds like a lot of work for something that needs re-done later.

Huh? I think you got me the wrong way! The idea is that nothing needs to be re-done. Basically it's a step up from just undercoating and leaving it there. Use a base colour (or colour undercoat as you've mentioned) and drybrush a lighter tint over it (to stop it looking like a colour undercoat) and a couple of extra colours to begin with. Pretty much the same as painting one colour with an ink wash before going back for the details. Again, no effort or skill needed and makes going back to the models later easier. If I did that with my first armies, having them completed would have been less daunting (not to mention actually achievable). painting a unit at a time to completion just never worked for me. The whole "busy life" excuse I'd use doesn't cut it when you can block-paint an army in a night or two with an undercoat, a couple of tubes of artist's paint and some rough and ready brushes. :)

Since I rarely make sense, here's some pics!

The orcs at the front here may never get finished, but I'd be prouder putting them on the table than....

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s187/zoggin-eck/orcs01_zps2afd47ef.jpg

My Dwarfs here, who I foolishly put back in the box after taking this photo :(

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s187/zoggin-eck/desk01_zpse3bea86e.jpg


Personally I would rather play against an army where the front ranks have been beautifully painted with rear ranks still to be done, than someone who has phoned it in with coloured sprays and washes.


That's an approach I've used in the past, also applied to models used as proxies (the odd spearman at the back of a Swordmaster unit, for example). Clearly this works for ranked unit games rather than 40k for example. I still much prefer the look of undercoated (phoned in? :D) than bare plastic/metal. I can't help but look at it!

Tarax
26-03-2014, 13:57
So. I don't personally get annoyed by unpainted models, in fact I often field them myself. Neither do I get annoyed by proxies or unassembled models, though (particularly if used more than once) I do consider them a red flag that we may have different goals from the game we're about to play. But I do recognise that different people want different things from the hobby - and without for a moment suggesting that either extreme is right or wrong, people at opposite ends of the spectrum may be better off avoiding games with each other as the experience is unlikely to be very satisfying for either. (And I do get amazed when shops allow the use of unpainted models. They're basically saying, "you see all these things we sell? You don't really need any of them. Uh... want to buy anything today?")

While I understand what you're saying, and agree to that upto a certain degree, I feel I need to put it to you that new gamers come into the hobby/game because of the (painted) models. They might see a game being played in a store, a convention or in a book/magazine, it's the models that attract them, not the rules. If it was for the rules, my guess is that the game(s) would hardly be played at all. There are many more better games out there.

It works both ways though: people like the models, buy them and get to play with them; and people like the game because of the models and buy them.
There is a third category: those who like the background; who will buy the books for the stories and maybe the odd model or two.

AsleepByDay
26-03-2014, 14:30
I personally much prefer to play with/against a painted army on a table with matching painted terrain. The visual aspect of the game is to my mind an important part and not something that should be neglected.

If a player wasn't showing any monthly progress on their army at all then I would player other players in preference. There isn't much of an excuse, bring your paints/tools to the club with you and build/paint when you have spare time there.

williamsond
26-03-2014, 14:32
I never feild unpainted models, it's kind of an OCD think with me. while i play against unpainted stuff all teh time painted is always a more plesent experience. It's one of teh reasons i like going to the larger tourneys as you for the most part get to play against well painted armies.

baransiege
26-03-2014, 14:42
Huh? I think you got me the wrong way! The idea is that nothing needs to be re-done. Basically it's a step up from just undercoating and leaving it there. Use a base colour (or colour undercoat as you've mentioned) and drybrush a lighter tint over it (to stop it looking like a colour undercoat) and a couple of extra colours to begin with. Pretty much the same as painting one colour with an ink wash before going back for the details. Again, no effort or skill needed and makes going back to the models later easier.

I think the point he is making is that by transporting and playing with models that haven't been finished and varnished a lot of that paintwork will rub off have to be redone.

Herzlos
26-03-2014, 14:46
Nah I thought the drybrushed stuff was to be painted over, and that it was redundant effort. The paint rubbing is a good point too though!

Daniel36
26-03-2014, 14:54
I can just give one piece of advice. Find a group of like minded individuals and play them. I know it's not easy, but they're there. Just don't play at your local store. I never do.

The bearded one
26-03-2014, 15:05
I field unpainted models plenty often, but generally with at least part of the unit already painted, and slowly working my way through them. I make it a point to have some progression in the painting from game to game. The model might be unpainted, but it's all essentially work in progress.

I definitely prefer a painted army fighting a painted army (on a painted table). Fully painted would be the best, but partially painted is the reality, and I'm okay with that, as long as there is at least a bit of progression or a drive to continue painting. I wouldn't refuse an unpainted army a game though. I'm terrible at refusing people things.

But I do try to get people to paint, or to increase the level of their painting. As such I help people out during the painting, give them tips and advice, a drive to get some stuff painted, occasionally commission things for people (I just finished painting 3 thunderwolves and canis wolfborn for someone) andsoforth, to create some painting momentum myself. I try to be the drive, and create drive and inspiration for other people.

weeble1000
26-03-2014, 19:33
Thanks for the answers I'm just interested in other people's opinions. I don't mean to attack others, and sorry if my post sounded like that

I think it is always problematic to assume that someone with an unpainted army is lazy, unmotivated, inconsiderate, etc. there's lots of reasons people play with unpainted armies. Painting is difficult and can be intimidating. It can take a lot of time. Personally, I find it very hard to get in painting time these days because of my kids. I keep my brushes clean and well cared for, so painting always requires set up and clean up time. It is hard to drop on a moments notice and grabby hands can cause a big mess, so I have to do it away from the kids.

The best way to address your own unhappiness with unpainted armies at the shop is to help people paint. Be encouraging and positive. Offer assistance and encouragement. Talk to people about what their plans are. I remember back in the day I was getting dirty looks from some guys at the FLGS for my unpainted guard units until they realized that I couldn't start painting until I had finished the lengthy conversions of each model. All of a sudden my army became cool and they got to see how the project was developing week to week.

Maybe all someone needs is some friendly encouragement or advice. Maybe they need some tips on how to get good results with not much work. Maybe you can kick things off by painting together or swapping hobby favors, like base costing his army with your sir brush if he assembled your new tank.

If YOU want to see painted armies, you can be proactive at making that happen in a way that helps to build the community.

weeble1000
26-03-2014, 19:35
Thanks for the answers I'm just interested in other people's opinions. I don't mean to attack others, and sorry if my post sounded like that

I think it is always problematic to assume that someone with an unpainted army is lazy, unmotivated, inconsiderate, etc. there's lots of reasons people play with unpainted armies. Painting is difficult and can be intimidating. It can take a lot of time. Personally, I find it very hard to get in painting time these days because of my kids. I keep my brushes clean and well cared for, so painting always requires set up and clean up time. It is hard to drop on a moments notice and grabby hands can cause a big mess, so I have to do it away from the kids.

The best way to address your own unhappiness with unpainted armies at the shop is to help people paint. Be encouraging and positive. Offer assistance and encouragement. Talk to people about what their plans are. I remember back in the day I was getting dirty looks from some guys at the FLGS for my unpainted guard units until they realized that I couldn't start painting until I had finished the lengthy conversions of each model. All of a sudden my army became cool and they got to see how the project was developing week to week.

Maybe all someone needs is some friendly encouragement or advice. Maybe they need some tips on how to get good results with not much work. Maybe you can kick things off by painting together or swapping hobby favors, like base costing his army with your air brush if he assembled your new tank.

If YOU want to see painted armies, you can be proactive at making that happen in a way that helps to build the community.

woggy
26-03-2014, 22:37
I personally strive to have my entire army painted (and I'm almost there; all that's left now is a trio of jetbikes). That said, I don't mind unpainted armies; my most regular opponent plays an Ork army that has about half a dozen models finished (out of...ninety or so? Orks). They're mostly unassembled, too, since it's hard to do the detail work she does once they're glued together. The finished ones look amazing, but...priorities, yanno?

Does a painted army look better? Absolutely. I'm not going to enforce restrictions on how someone else chooses to spend their own time, though.

burad
30-03-2014, 20:03
I won't put a mini on the table unless it's finished and completely painted. Some in our group have some of their stuff unpainted, or basecoat painted, but it's always an interim step in our group. As long as I can tell what it is, the amount of paint is less important. That being said, I find it hard to take pride in any miniature's 'performance' on the battlefield if it's not fully painted. As odd as that sounds.

FarFar GoHai
30-03-2014, 21:16
Its all about enjoying a good game, and while painted models ups the experience, it does not necesarily make a good game.

Personally I paint my stuff to a pretty high standard, and cannot be bothered with bad paintjobs. In my eyes its just a waste of my time to not do it properly.
However, the consequence is that I regularly field armies with quite well painted models together with all black undercoated models as time is limited. (And I play a horde army)
But warhammer is still fun. Even with stand-ins if you do not happen to have one particular model.
Just enjoy the game and some good company :-)

Kingly
30-03-2014, 22:09
Well said far far,

I paint at a pretty fast pace and usually only field 95% painted armies, but have no problems facing untainted proxies.

Spider-pope
31-03-2014, 11:58
The way i see it, unless i'm the one paying for my opponents army, it's none of my business what they do with it. I try to field only painted units in my armies, because i like the way it looks and it's a big part of the enjoyment i get from the hobby. But i'm not going to look down on those that don't, because like i said, it's their money they are spending, if they are happy with unpainted plastic then good for them.

I do however dislike playing against half assembled or proxied armies, solely because i have a terrible memory and occasionally you face the plasma gun that's really a melta gun while that tank is nearby but then is a flamer if those light infantry over there come near.

Naley
31-03-2014, 16:14
- I would never turn down an opponent because of this. We are very few(in fantasy of last) so even getting might not be to easy.
- In tourneys I feel the people who don't find the painting their thing might feel excluded. The local tourney has a 50% painted policy that everyone can reach. Personally I have never finished a whole army but I am getting there.
- Atleast play with glued minis or proxy them with other glued minis that is aprox the same size. In the local leauge one played with a candle as a riptide since he hadn't glued it(a couple of weeks earlier he played me used a dreadknight). The main rule wa no proxy but it ended up in proxy fest sometimes. Not that I care its all about having fun. Tough in the knockout stage there was no proxying whatsoever.
- I paint for my own enjoyment, but getting comments/creds from other players is also a target for me and encourage me to paint more.

Dylius
31-03-2014, 22:20
I have a lot of unpainted models, purely because of the amount of time it takes to paint them. I'd actually rate my converting/painting skills as good (but not 'Eavy Metal standard), but I have to spend a lot of effort to get them up to that standard. Spending three hours to paint a single Weirdboy (over multiple sessions) takes quite a lot out of you, even if the end result is worth it.

Sephillion
01-04-2014, 15:38
Just wanted to rant a bit and see if anyone else finds it as annoying/rude when your opponent has an army of black or grey against your painted armies.

I wouldn’t call it rude, because to each his own. I love painting and assembling, some people hate it; but it still annoyed me when I faced an unpainted, unprimed Imperial Guard army whose concept was basically “include as much bodies as possible and don’t care about anything else”, so huge blobs of guards with a dash of units with better weapons (only one of those and his commander was partly painted). The table looked like a sea of grey. At that point, he might as well have bought green Army Men, he would have saved money…

Daniel36
01-04-2014, 16:02
You know... Why would you want to play Warhammer with unpainted stuff? If it's only the tactics and the game you care about, why not just play chess? And if you really can't be bothered to paint your stuff or just don't know how (which is fine), just ask someone to do it for you for a fee. Honestly, one can say it's expensive to let someone paint your miniatures for you, but I personally find it more expensive to buy miniatures and then NOT paint them. Then you might as well just play with poker chips.

Herzlos
01-04-2014, 16:48
I'd say it's too expensive a game to have to wait for them to be painted to use. If I've spent $500 on some toy soldiers I'm going to be using them whether I've painted them or not (and I'll paint them eventually - I probably won't get to finish painting my current collection until I retire and that doesn't include anything else I buy in the next 35 years).

mostlyharmless
01-04-2014, 17:39
For the longest time, at my local GW, I ran into the same problem. A bunch of people showing up to tournaments with gray plastic. I was winning said tournaments because my armies were actually painted. At that point, I decided to do something about it, something unprecedented. I was going to lead by example. I started painting a Warriors of Chaos army, not just a small demo force, but a massive 4,000 point army, complete with special characters, huge blocks of infantry and cavalry and so on. I did all of the painting at the store in my spare time, and they made a shelf in the figure case available for me. The point I was trying to make by painting all of it in store and leaving it on display was that it could be done and that you didn't need to be particularly talented to do it. I'd even demonstrate some of the techniques I was using in hopes that other people would "paint their crap," using my own words.

It worked. I started seeing more people with more painted armies. I was no longer the only person with a fully painted army at the tournaments. That was my gift to the local game store: the challenge to the players to at least try.

Archibald_TK
01-04-2014, 23:01
You know... Why would you want to play Warhammer with unpainted stuff?
Let's try it:
- Because some people just want to play the game without painting being a determining factor regarding whether they are allowed to play or not.
- Because these built but unpainted models already satisfy them, more than that doesn't make them feel better and less than that doesn't go along their aesthetic of the game (so no poker chips, sorry)

Well, that was easy! What do I win?... Oh wait, there's more!


If it's only the tactics and the game you care about, why not just play chess?
If it's only the aesthetic of the model you care about, why not just display them? Also as a shop that sells both wargames, boardgames and classic games like chess, your comment nearly made me facepalm (thank God my natural laziness prevented me from bothering :)).

That aside, regarding my personal take on the issue, I find models that have been nicely built and undercoated to be quite nicer to look at than poorly painted ones. An undercoated model is a virgin canvas that has yet to unleash all of its potential (no matter how long it has to wait) while a poorly painted one has been soiled. Yet undercoated, Golden Daemon winner or ugly paint, I couldn't care less and will be fine whatever my opponent is fielding. My own perception of the game is only here to satisfy my own ego and I feel zero need to enforce it on others.

ewar
02-04-2014, 18:55
I don't care what standard a model is painted to as long as it's painted. I don't get the argument that there isn't enough time - I once saw a project log where a guy painted 250 models on a Sunday afternoon by doing 3 or 4 basic colours and then dipping them. With a textured base the army looked pretty neat.

It's not how I'd paint an army but he had a fully painted army in about 5 or 6 hours.

I don't look down on people who don't paint their stuff, but I definitely prefer not to play them. I don't get to game anywhere near as often as I'd like, so when I do I want it to look as cool as it can. That's one of the main reasons tournaments are so much fun - your guaranteed to come up against some gorgeous armies!

Autumn Leaves
03-04-2014, 06:55
Wait until you have children, then it all changes.
I get snatches of opportunity to paint and thats all.
Home from working long hours, time to help the Mrs to cook dinner or bath the baby or help the oldest with his homework or put the laundry out... the list goes on.
There are always different reasons for unpainted miniatures and laziness is not often the case.
Prioritising is usually the case.
Try telling your mrs that painting a unit of skinks is more important than feeding and changing the increasingly noisy baby, oh yeah, good luck with that.
I am OCD about painted miniatures but having a family and working has helped me lighten my hard line on painted models.

shelfunit.
03-04-2014, 07:57
Wait until you have children, then it all changes.

Oh yes. I'm lucky being a stay at home dad, and I feel lucky to get about 1.5hrs a day (nap time). If I had to add commuting on top of that I'd be lucky to get 1.5hrs a week.

ewar
03-04-2014, 09:53
Each to their own I guess. I have two kids and commute to London and back every day - I still paint 1.5 hours per day between 10.30pm and midnight. But that is my main relaxation time and it helps me unwind, so I understand that regime isn't for everyone :)

My point earlier though was that a painted army is incredibly easy to achieve if you compromise on quality of individual models. As the latest business buzzword goes "done is better than perfect" and I think that applies here very well.

Bad monkey
03-04-2014, 10:14
I think it is always problematic to assume that someone with an unpainted army is lazy, unmotivated, inconsiderate, etc. there's lots of reasons people play with unpainted armies. Painting is difficult and can be intimidating. It can take a lot of time. Personally, I find it very hard to get in painting time these days because of my kids. I keep my brushes clean and well cared for, so painting always requires set up and clean up time. It is hard to drop on a moments notice and grabby hands can cause a big mess, so I have to do it away from the kids.

The best way to address your own unhappiness with unpainted armies at the shop is to help people paint. Be encouraging and positive. Offer assistance and encouragement. Talk to people about what their plans are. I remember back in the day I was getting dirty looks from some guys at the FLGS for my unpainted guard units until they realized that I couldn't start painting until I had finished the lengthy conversions of each model. All of a sudden my army became cool and they got to see how the project was developing week to week.

Maybe all someone needs is some friendly encouragement or advice. Maybe they need some tips on how to get good results with not much work. Maybe you can kick things off by painting together or swapping hobby favors, like base costing his army with your sir brush if he assembled your new tank.

If YOU want to see painted armies, you can be proactive at making that happen in a way that helps to build the community.

This pretty much sums up my thoughts. Like a few in here I work long shifts and have a young kid. I only get maybe an hour or 2 a week to get the paints out. One big motivator for me is talking to my mates that are in the hobby and sharing ideas and tips, and seeing what people do on sites like this.

Although i do prefer to play painted armies, I have no issues plating unprinted as I understand how difficult it can be to get the time to do so.

BTJ
03-04-2014, 10:21
I prefer to have my models painted. But at the same time, I'm in my final year at college, spend 4-6 hours a day commuting to said college, and have two on/off jobs that are only ever night-time or weekends, not to mention I do pretty much all the housework in lieu of paying my mam rent. Combine that with having a ridiculous amount of armies over around a dozen games, not to mention rpg minis, and the infamous Irish weather that stops me undercoating my minis and I'm bloody lucky to get a mini basecoated. Especially because I have a really short attention span, paint slowly, and by and large refuse to paint any less than my best regardless of how big an army is model-wise. I think my greatest proportion of finished minis are my Necrons, sitting at around 10-15%, and that's only because I actually make the mental effort to (comparatively) dumb-down my painting for them.

Okapi
03-04-2014, 13:11
While I definitely prefer painted armies, I don't think I would turn down a game against an unpainted army. My beef is with proxies and unassembled models. For one it looks pretty silly, and secondly it makes it difficult to remember what is what, especially in multiples. "This flamer is a melta, this Marine without arms has a plasma gun, and this one without a head or arms has a plasma cannon. Also, this unit of Terminators is really Centurions, the Captain with the power sword has a power fist, and the Whirlwind is a Hunter." It gets confusing very quickly, especially if you're not all that familiar with your opponent's army.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

BFalcon
03-04-2014, 15:14
While I definitely prefer painted armies, I don't think I would turn down a game against an unpainted army. My beef is with proxies and unassembled models. For one it looks pretty silly, and secondly it makes it difficult to remember what is what, especially in multiples. "This flamer is a melta, this Marine without arms has a plasma gun, and this one without a head or arms has a plasma cannon. Also, this unit of Terminators is really Centurions, the Captain with the power sword has a power fist, and the Whirlwind is a Hunter." It gets confusing very quickly, especially if you're not all that familiar with your opponent's army.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

Easy workaround - insist that anyone using any kind of proxy uses labels unless the weapon is reasonably close to the weapon it's supposed to be - for example, someone using napoleonic minis instead of imperial guard could, fairly reasonably, state that all rifles were lasguns and only label special/heavy weapons and sergeants in their squads, IMO. That way, you'll all be sure of what's what without anyone getting upset (and having to hand-write labels, as most will, might encourage them to at least assemble their minis...

Doing the same for any undercoated minis might encourage them to get some basecoating done too. :)

When I first started in the hobby (I'm a collector far more than I've played) some 25 to 30 years ago, we were using paper-stand minis and books for hills for a few games since our only FLGS was some 50 miles away and we only made occasional trips down there, so we needed to substitute a lot - that and there was only one box set of plastic - the old Imperial Space Marines (£10 for 30, mind - even if the detail wasn't great) so armies cost a lot (for our income) to build up...

We should not, I think, forget our roots and fall into the GW "must paint all minis", but those who use substitutes/proxies should also remember to respect their opponents and come armed with some labels - even cardboard "tented" labels stood on the base is better than nothing and stops all the arguments... for one thing, it makes it obvious that you tried, at least.

Zingraff
03-04-2014, 15:45
Coloured dot labels are a good way to mark unpainted models to let your opponent know which models represent different types of troopers and/or special/hvy weapons. I put stickers on both sides of the base, the sticker underneath the base greatly speeds up set up, because when the models are resting in a foam tray it's easier to see the underside of the bases.

Stickers like these: http://7-years.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/dots-1.jpg