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Acephale
25-03-2014, 13:09
Hey guys,

so I'm thinking about starting an Empire army and I'm contemplating doing something a bit different with it. It's going to be a "themed" army in fluff terms (haven't decided quite what type of thing I'm looking for here yet), but more importantly: I'm hoping to build a list no magic involved whatsoever.

Being totally new to Empire - I don't even have the book yet - I'm not sure just how crazy this would be, so I'm looking for some pointers here. Obviously it's not going to be an über-cheesy list in any way, but I don't want to gimp myself into oblivion either.

What do you say? Is it viable, or perhaps totally suicidal, to not use any magic at all as an Empire player? And if it's viable, what would you concentrate on instead to be effective, i.e. how can those points saved from wizards be put to good use elsewhere?

Any kind of advice is welcome.

Cheers,
Acephale

Darnok
25-03-2014, 14:42
Historical gaming might be more for you: you can do exactly what you want, and won't lose most of your games.


P.S.: And the models are of course much cheaper.

CountUlrich
25-03-2014, 14:50
Not possible. Just internally, Empire really excells at few things, it rellies on combined arms. Not only that, but magic is a strong phase for them.

Beyond that, no magic means your enemies have free reign to obliterate you at will and you have no ability to stop them with dispells.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk

BirchbarktheAncient
25-03-2014, 15:13
At least take an L1 with a scroll. It is a fallacy to say that empire needs a strong magic phase. At 2500, I use two tanks and a Helblaster. That makes up for the loss of magic prowess. Your wizard at L1 or L2 should be a Life Wizard to heal the tanks be supportive generally. I win 80% of my games using a basic L2 Wizard in my 2500 point list, so if you don't use magic, go heavy war machine.

Acephale
25-03-2014, 15:24
Historical gaming might be more for you: you can do exactly what you want, and won't lose most of your games.


P.S.: And the models are of course much cheaper.

Well, if I was interested in historical gaming I wouldn't be playing Warhammer, now would I? But thanks anyway.


Not possible. Just internally, Empire really excells at few things, it rellies on combined arms. Not only that, but magic is a strong phase for them.

Beyond that, no magic means your enemies have free reign to obliterate you at will and you have no ability to stop them with dispells.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk


At least take an L1 with a scroll. It is a fallacy to say that empire needs a strong magic phase. At 2500, I use two tanks and a Helblaster. That makes up for the loss of magic prowess. Your wizard at L1 or L2 should be a Life Wizard to heal the tanks be supportive generally. I win 80% of my games using a basic L2 Wizard in my 2500 point list, so if you don't use magic, go heavy war machine.

Thanks for the responses. Yeah, I was thinking about bringing a L1 or a L2, but then I thought that it would perhaps be possible to use the points I save from not bringing any wizards to tie up my opponent's magic potential or perhaps even assassinate his casters at an early stage, thus not (hopefully) needing even a scroll. It's risky of course but relying too heavily on magic is also a great risk.

liddan
25-03-2014, 16:02
If you aren't dead set on no magic you can bring a luminark (for a good bound spell and magic defense) and warrior priest(s) and/or arch lector for battle prayers. Then you won't completely gimp yourself by not using the "free" power dice every magic phase. I do think a level 1 or 2 with dispel scroll is worth every point.

As far as wizard assassination goes I suppose you can buy a ton of witch hunters with brace of pistols and a ring of volans with spirit leech. It might get a kill on a hero level skink or a human but it won't hold up against daemon princes, slanns, lord level orcs etc. Sniping characters isn't empire's forte.

Sexiest_hero
25-03-2014, 16:18
You can either go full guns or full mounted, load up on bound items and try to get stuck in as fast as possible, go all out to assassinate the enemy wizard, then you are on equal terms. That's how I get by with a lvl 1.

Ero-Senin
25-03-2014, 17:28
You can definitely do this but you will be at a slight disadvantage as your buffs will be limited. Take an arch lector or a couple of warrior priest to buff units and a hurricanum and/or luminark to do the same (IMO hurricanum is much better) also I would suggest a couple of witch hunters. I suggest witch hunters for two reasons: 1) they are really cool and fluffy for an army with no wizards and 2) they give magic resistance 2 to any unit they join meaning you get a 5+ ward against direct damage spells.

SimaoSegunda
25-03-2014, 23:24
It is certainly doable. The points you save can be spent on extra bodies to soak up magic damage, and there are a number of cheap ways to get magic resistance on most units. Cannons can be used to snipe enemy wizards and take away your opponent's advantage.

Scammel
26-03-2014, 00:15
I think guns are by far the best way you'll be compensating for lack of magic - those points spent on wizards can go on Engineers instead. I'd stay well away from trying to go down the combat route, the most powerful spells in the game are the hexes and buffs in my experience (not to mention that Empire are often reliant on them to win straight-up fights) and you'll get stomped if you can't stop them. As many guns as possible, with a few cavalry counter-charge elements for when the enemy inevitably gets close (Demigryphs especially).

Acephale
26-03-2014, 06:41
Thanks for the replies guys!

Seems like it's doable after all, albeit a bit difficult and risky. But as I said, I'm not doing this to have the most OP list out there.

I think I'll start by getting the book and get an overall feeling for the army. But I guess artillery/gunlines is the way to go, perhaps combined with some chaff or tarpits and then a few Witch Hunters to harass the enemy wizards (love the WH models and fluff btw so I'm getting those anyway).

laribold
26-03-2014, 10:22
Sniping characters isn't empire's forte.

????

Apart from Hochland Long Rifles giving you the chance to snipe away to your hearts content at enemy wizards...

MOMUS
26-03-2014, 13:33
+1 or just all the cannons you could bring?

Sometimes 4 cannon shots on any character (even with a LoS) is scary

WhispersofBlood
26-03-2014, 14:36
I recently played with just a level 2 lore of death(no combat buffs), no Warrior priest at a 50 man event. Had a great time and was never out of any games and beat most players handily. You just can't take whatever with the points you save you need to be smart about it.

twinsword
27-03-2014, 11:15
OH OH OH!! if youre theaming youre army what about the swedish from the 30 years war? Lots of cannons, handguns and halbards?
sure migth not be optimal but heck its going to look cool and cool trumps how good youre army is.

Acephale
27-03-2014, 13:50
OH OH OH!! if youre theaming youre army what about the swedish from the 30 years war? Lots of cannons, handguns and halbards?
sure migth not be optimal but heck its going to look cool and cool trumps how good youre army is.

Good idea! Actually I'm thinking about a blue and yellow colour scheme for some units. And I'm also looking at Lietpold the Black from FW, he would be great as a Gustav II Adolf-inspired general... :cool: Of course it would have to fit with the WH fluff in some way, gotta read up on that Empire background.

Voss
27-03-2014, 13:54
It is certainly doable. The points you save can be spent on extra bodies to soak up magic damage, and there are a number of cheap ways to get magic resistance on most units. Cannons can be used to snipe enemy wizards and take away your opponent's advantage.

What does he do about the dangerous spells? The buffs and debuffs care nothing for extra bodies or magic resist.

twinsword
27-03-2014, 14:22
Good idea! Actually I'm thinking about a blue and yellow colour scheme for some units. And I'm also looking at Lietpold the Black from FW, he would be great as a Gustav II Adolf-inspired general... :cool: Of course it would have to fit with the WH fluff in some way, gotta read up on that Empire background.

I was about to say that you should have writen on the banners "Gott mit uns" but then i reliased that the nazis used that term as well :/

But what you should write on youre elit troops or cannos is Ultima ratio regum meaning the last resort of kings, just an ide

SpanielBear
27-03-2014, 14:34
Good idea! Actually I'm thinking about a blue and yellow colour scheme for some units. And I'm also looking at Lietpold the Black from FW, he would be great as a Gustav II Adolf-inspired general... :cool: Of course it would have to fit with the WH fluff in some way, gotta read up on that Empire background.

A border prince/sub-elector count, who has been raised to follow one of the "lesser" gods of the empire, such as Morr. Disgusted by what he sees as a denigration of his deity by the focus on Sigmar or Ulrich in the greater empire, not to mention the heretical profusion of witches and warlocks, he sends his personal preachers into the empire to spread the true word.
Said preachers make no friends in the empire, and are eventually hung in the centre of Altdorf for the murder of a local Bright Wizard.
Enraged, the prince musters is armies. His firery rhetoric attracts shadowy witch-hunters to his banner, and he marches to war...

Acephale
27-03-2014, 14:38
I was about to say that you should have writen on the banners "Gott mit uns" but then i reliased that the nazis used that term as well :/

But what you should write on youre elit troops or cannos is Ultima ratio regum meaning the last resort of kings, just an ide


A border prince/sub-elector count, who has been raised to follow one of the "lesser" gods of the empire, such as Morr. Disgusted by what he sees as a denigration of his deity by the focus on Sigmar or Ulrich in the greater empire, not to mention the heretical profusion of witches and warlocks, he sends his personal preachers into the empire to spread the true word.
Said preachers make no friends in the empire, and are eventually hung in the centre of Altdorf for the murder of a local Bright Wizard.
Enraged, the prince musters is armies. His firery rhetoric attracts shadowy witch-hunters to his banner, and he marches to war...

Nice! Thanks for the input guys, I can't wait to start this project. I'll probably get my *ss handed to me big time but who cares, it's gonna be fun!

Warboss_R'ok
27-03-2014, 23:35
You might be able to kill the enemy level 4 if you spam enough cannons and Hochland long rifles. If almost your entire core is hand gunners that could be 6 units of 10, so you can buy 6 champions with long rifles at 25 points each. Maybe even go crazy and get 8 or even 10 units of 10 hand gunners. Then double steam tank and the guys in the tank can take a long rifle. Then triple great cannon. So that level 4 will potentially get shot at by 10 hochland long rifles and 5 cannonballs. And the large number of hand gunners can wreck the enemy's troops.

You will need a lot of chaff and dead drops. You need to line up all the long rifles opposite the level 4, so you need to win at deployment. It has a range of 36'', so if you are lucky you will be able to hit the level 4 with all 10 of them on turn 1! Probably hitting on a 5+ at best though..

Against some armies you might be able to get rid of the look out sir on the level 4 by whittling down his/her unit to below 5 rank and file models. Cannon shots and perhaps even crossbow shots might work. Scouting huntsmen or outriders might also be able to get a shot in.

Ero-Senin
31-03-2014, 16:46
A level four is not the be all and end all of Warhammer. You don't need one, you dont have to dedicate your game to killing the enemy one. FACT!

Agoz
02-04-2014, 04:22
I've found that after losing my lvl 4, warrior priests can usually carry a magic phase to a point, so yes, it is possible. If you are asking if it is possible to play with no magic whatsoever, I suppose so, though you'll miss having the hatred that warrior priests provide, as well as the magic altar bonuses. Basic human troops are pretty poor without buffs, they have a hard time standing up to anything. You could make up for it by including more warmachines, though that won't earn you many friends.

Silver Wolf
02-04-2014, 05:39
Through my five years of playing Empire I found out there are three things you can't leave your home without.

A BSB, a level 3-4 wizard lord and a great cannon.