PDA

View Full Version : Should GW bring back Epic 40000 and dump apoc and escalation?



Ratbeast
27-03-2014, 10:00
Should GW bring back Epic 40000 and dump apoc and escalation?

Old epic 40k was an awesome game, you could have your titans and everything, and not spend an arm and a leg on getting the massive models, I am over GW trying to make general 40k bigger! big units and big battles is something that should be done on a smaller scale!!!!

I would personally like the return of Epic 40k and the end to this arms race games workshop is throwing at us, like I am (and many of my older friends) are not going out and spending god knows on a single tank, that takes up half of book shelf on its own, yeah it might look cool, but its totally not worth it. Many of my friends are being turned of 40k and returning to fantasy because of this, its a shame, my tau are starting to look decent.

What are the warseers communities thoughts

MajorWesJanson
27-03-2014, 10:18
No. Dropping Apoc would invalidate a number of large kits.

That said, Apoc III really needs to look at Epic for rules inspiration. Going from Apoc I to Apoc II was mostly the wrong direction, with superheavies being dumbed down, Destroyer weapons being made more stupidly powerful than they were. Bring on the Epic titan rules where the superheavies had hit locations, and where superheavy weapons had a variety and served different roles, not just a single weapon type (Destroyer) that rolls on a random chart to see how much you pick up off the table.

zoggin-eck
27-03-2014, 10:20
Soft or hard taco shells? Why not have both?

An update or re-release (any of the different editions) would be nice, as would new models and a focus on what makes Epic scale games different. By that I mean titans and unique units and battle scale, not the close-up photos of two stands of infantry and a single tank and small battle reports from Epic 40k's launch :mad: If it were simply trying again with the same models I already own, I'd be less interested. There's already heaps of alternate and second-hand models and rules around.

Having big Epic inspired 40k models doesn't bother me. I do wish they'd push both scales, though. Usual pricing complaints aside, I think titan kits in modern plastic would be fantastic. I don't doubt GW could make it awesome, and if properly done and advertised, the usual "eew, they're so small" response (which seems to be what GW staff are trained to say if you dare mention the games) wouldn't be seen. It would be a huge undertaking to start over though, as everyone would want "their" army to be included. The usual suggestion of a single, fairly limited boxed set probably makes more sense, perhaps with army expansions. If they did this, and took it back to it's Horus Heresy era roots (making the number of armies so much easier :))) I'd be all over it.

However, unless I'm getting the wrong vibe, I thought the larger models were working out quite well for them so far? I can't see them scaling it back unless they've proven unsuccessful.

Gingerwerewolf
27-03-2014, 10:21
No. Dropping Apoc would invalidate a number of large kits.

That said, Apoc III really needs to look at Epic for rules inspiration. Going from Apoc I to Apoc II was mostly the wrong direction, with superheavies being dumbed down, Destroyer weapons being made more stupidly powerful than they were. Bring on the Epic titan rules where the superheavies had hit locations, and where superheavy weapons had a variety and served different roles, not just a single weapon type (Destroyer) that rolls on a random chart to see how much you pick up off the table.

+1 to this and +1 to bringing it back as the OP said

I think that 40k and Epic are different enough that they have their own roles to play.

The occational Super Heavy in 40k, yep, thats an epic storyline. But having an entire Phallanx of Knights, leading a few packs of Warhounds and all led by a Titan the size of a city? Yep thats what Epic is for

Born Again
27-03-2014, 10:22
Nope, because they were totally different games, it's nothing to do with just having titans on the board. I always say that 40k makes you feel like you're the officer on the field, down there with your troops with shells and energy beams flying past you as you fight and bleed alongside your men. Epic felt like you were Lord General Militant in a command bunker miles from the front, or even in orbit, pushing tactical markers around the holo-display of the battle lines like those old WWII photos you see of them planning out troop movements on miniature landscapes.

That's not to say one is better than the other, for that reason Epic is definitely the 'better' game of grand strategy, but 40k still has plenty for the scale it operates at and I've always found to be more exciting.

I do have some issues with the 'up-sizing' of 40k, but that's not so much to do with the units existing for those that want to use them, and more to do with certain kinds of players deciding to spam multiple Riptides/ Wraithknights purely to WAAC.

Kakapo42
27-03-2014, 10:24
Do I think they should bring back Epic 40,000? Hells to the power of yes I do. It was an awesome game, and should definitely be given support again.

Do I think it should come at the expense of Apocalypse and Escalation? No, I can see a place for both. Apocalypse and Escalation are both, I think, not meant to be used very often. They're for special occasions, much like Cities of Death and Planetstrike (which, strangely, are both far more suited to regular use than either Apocalypse or Escalation, yet see far less discussion. That I've noticed, at least). Apocalypse is for big, titanic battles at Warhammer 40,000 scale, where you and your gaming group all get together and unleash your entire collections. Everything in them. Even those archaic models you painted when you were first starting up in the hobby, and are clad in clumsy old paint schemes, them too. Throw in the kitchen sink as well if needbe. It's for that rare time when you want to stage a cataclysmic showdown with everything in your army display cabinet. Such an event will likely happen no more than twice a year.

Escalation is meant, I think, to be used a bit more frequently, but even then not all the time. It's for when you want to have a night of trying to stop the giant rampaging super-unit, or rampage around the board with your own giant super-unit while laughing maniacally, because it's fun to laugh maniacally sometimes. Neither suppliment is meant to be used all the time. That's my thinking at least.

Epic, on the other hand, is for regular use, when you want to field gigantic cataclysmic legions, but don't want to have to put all the effort into setting up an Apocalypse game. It's also for when you want to use armies that are too big to ever be fully replicated in 40k scale, with things like Mega-Gargants, Daemon Primarchs and Empreror class titans.

But both have their place and purpose.


yeah it might look cool, but its totally not worth it.

See, I think this is one of the main problems between the growing disconnect between GW and some of it's playerbase. You see, to the hobbyists that GW is marketing towards, actually yes it's totally worth it because it looks cool.

EDIT: Damn, ninja'd by several other posters about my first point.

Freman Bloodglaive
27-03-2014, 10:30
Epic is a great game system that is actually balanced with all the monstrous vehicles and creatures.

Consequently we know GW isn't going to bring it back.

Apocalypse and Escalation don't push my buttons.

T10
27-03-2014, 10:30
Should GW bring back Epic 40000 and dump apoc and escalation?

What are the warseers communities thoughts

I think you are right and should be made President of the World. :)

No, seriously though: Epic is dead compared to WH40k.

-T10

Darnok
27-03-2014, 10:39
Why not both?

If done right*, Apoc can be a hell lot of fun, and provide inspirational gaming experiences. But you can't do some of the things that are no problem with Epic - and the other way round! Epic and Apoc are simply two different things, and it would be great to have them both.



* ... I won't go into detail what this "right" means - something different for everybody I guess - as this is a topic of its won.

Poseidal
27-03-2014, 10:41
Ironically, we've started playing Adeptus Titanicus here. The regular 40k players are gathered round a table with the old Titans and we play games of that.

I don't really like infantry in Epic scale, but tanks and walkers seem much more suited.

Zingraff
27-03-2014, 11:24
I like both scales, and I wish they would bring back Epic, with new models, but that's not going to happen. Epic Armageddon is a great system and the large scale allows for a more "realistic" portrayal of battles.

I have no experience with Apocalypse but I understand it was written by Jervis Johnson who also developed Epic Armageddon 4 years earlier (unless it was originally developed by FW in which case I don't know if Jervis was involved). So it can't be that bad.

I also like Escalation and Stronghold Assault.

Importman
27-03-2014, 11:39
I second that adaptus titanicus was a great game. Epic with infantries was just so so.

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk 2

Grocklock
27-03-2014, 12:08
It would be good to bring it back but. I feel its one of those topics where we say its awesome and we would all buy it but then don't buy it.

I mean it went away because people didn't buy it and its hard to support something that doesn't really sell.

I could be wrong and I hope I am. Would be cool to see a board full of titans battering it out over a planet.

NealSmith
27-03-2014, 13:16
Yes

Ha! It wouldn't let me post that short a message...

hobojebus
27-03-2014, 14:01
Apoc has never really impressed me it's a pain to find enough space to set up and takes waaaaaaay to long to play, and frankly I just tend to lose interest after so long.

Epic was fun let you use large formations and didn't take the best part of a day to Finnish.

But gw are determined to sell big kits at any cost now to dig themselves out of the whole they now find themselves in, I always said killing specialist games was a mistake, if they'd of supported gothic and epic the way they did 40k they'd of been laughing.

ObiWayneKenobi
27-03-2014, 14:15
Not dump, but I think they should have a distinct separation. Flyers (in their current form), buying fortifications, superheavies and the like should be only in Apocalypse, not regular 40k. They should have Epic back as an alternative for much larger scale battles than even Apocalypse can have (maybe 10-15mm instead of what it was which was 6mm I think) and honestly bring back some kind of Necromunda/Inquisitor (28mm) small warband skirmish. This way you can fight battles on all scales: "Inquisimunda" -> 40k -> 40k Apocalypse -> 40k Epic. If they brought back BFG imagine the possibles to "forge a narrative" there? You could have an entire invasion of a world or even a planetary system with each planet having a different type of game suitable to a specific mission.

On one world you have a skirmish as an elite squad tries to take over a communications bunker.
On another, you have a clash over a key landing zone with a regular 40k game.
On yet another, you could have a large-scale confrontation between two armies on the field of batltle (Apoc)
And finally on the central world, a huge conflict that decides the fate of the world (Epic)
All the while you have your ships facing off in space (BFG).

Tell me how awesome that would be to create a narrative around?

Navar
27-03-2014, 14:18
Have any of you considered Horus Heresy (http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite.asp?eidm=98&enmi=Horus%20Heresy) the board game?

Geep
27-03-2014, 14:23
Epic easily beats Apoc for including the big models- and keeping the game balanced. I'd like it if Apoc were a bit more like Epic in that way-

BUT

Epic is in a pretty good place right now, as far as community and rules go. Gamers have banded together and created different versions of Epic (NetEpic and NetEA) which are mostly very balanced and neat to play with.
A re-release by GW would probably stomp on this, repeatedly. They'd be looking to release 1000 and 1 Epic books, supplements, new shiny kits, which they of course then have to sell- and we'd see 'narrative' over balance as with 40k.
As much as I'd love for the game to be more popular, and with new and more easily accessible models, I don't want it touched by GW with a 10ft pole. Sadly, GW have gone the way of Lucas and Spielberg, GW can't be trusted with their own creations anymore.

Inquisitor Engel
27-03-2014, 16:32
I'd rather have both?

With GW seemingly bringing Forge World closer into the fold with rumoured website and social media consolidation, I don't think it's unreasonable for GW to be able to publish rules for Epic and then say "Hey, the models are over here, by Forge World." The resin casting can be done on a relatively on-demand basis (compared to plastics) and when things sell well, they can be moved over to other production methods, a la Piranhas/Skyrays.

Sir Didymus
27-03-2014, 16:40
GW should continue making cool models.

Players should buy the models, they want, and modify the rules to suit their own tastes.

Then we can all rejoice :)

Chem-Dog
27-03-2014, 17:40
A re-written Adeptus Titanicus would be groovy, really got no interest in building an epic army though, I tried and was thoroughly underwhelmed by the experience.

Cheeslord
28-03-2014, 15:27
I would play Epic and start buying GW products again if they rereleased it. probably anyway, if the rules werent pants...

For good measure they could bring back the Squats so I can dig out and field my old epic squat army.

Both things are equally likely to happen. I am sure most of you have a good feel for how likely this is...

Mark.

IcedCrow
28-03-2014, 15:42
From a sales point of view its obvious why epic will never be brought back.

hobojebus
28-03-2014, 16:00
From a sales point of view its obvious why epic will never be brought back.

Yeah funny how year on year profits went up when they canned specialist games...oh no wait they went down.

IcedCrow
28-03-2014, 16:01
Its more that why would people spend money on the big titans and tanks when they can just play epic instead which costs about 1/4 the cost? If I'm trying to sell baneblades and lord of skulls and big super heavies, having EPIC around would seem very counter productive to that goal when a blister of titans is a fraction of the cost of a full size titan.

ObiWayneKenobi
28-03-2014, 16:38
Its more that why would people spend money on the big titans and tanks when they can just play epic instead which costs about 1/4 the cost? If I'm trying to sell baneblades and lord of skulls and big super heavies, having EPIC around would seem very counter productive to that goal when a blister of titans is a fraction of the cost of a full size titan.

Yep, this. When GW decided they could sell huge titans and the like for 40k, that put the final nail in the coffin of Epic and meant they'd never ever put it out again, because it would be an alternative to 40k. That's why all the specialist games got canned anyways, they were seen as competition to WHFB/40k instead of supplemental game systems; that is, if you had an army in Epic you weren't likely to buy that same army in 40k, or even play 40k at all (although more likely you had a 40k army that was basically a "detachment" for your Epic force). Thus, Epic was "stealing" sales from 40k and was removed; with GW pushing Apocalypse as the baseline in subtle ways, Epic can't ever make a return because it would directly compete with the idea of 40k Apocalypse.

That's how GW thinks.

hobojebus
28-03-2014, 16:44
Except focusing on big kits isn't working is it, they've been doing this for a while now and profits are going down year on year now not up.

Not every one is single with lots of excess cash, most kids don't have parents that will spend spend £80-100 on a big model, certainly my parents would not of they'd of encouraged me to spend my money more wisely, and some like myself know plonking down that kind of money for a model is excessive given the rarity apoc games in my gaming circle.

And because none of us are WaaC or min maxer's we wont be bringing the big stuff into regular 40k games ever.

GW made more money when they sold a wider range of stuff and prices were reasonable, they are going in the wrong direction by focusing on big kits.

nedius
28-03-2014, 17:00
Before Forgeworld took on the heresy, I had a vague hope that once the LotR bubble bists and they were a game short, they might have conisdered releasing Epic as a Heresy era game.

It made lots of sense. You just can't do the scale of heresy battles in 40k. Whole Legions of space marines battling each other under the feet of squadrons of titans... I know I'm shooting myself (a tyranid fan) in the foot with such an idea, but it seemed to fit for me.

However, whatever game they may release in future, if it's not a one off - it needs to be supported in store. Not just mail order.

draccan
28-03-2014, 17:07
In the age of 3d printers GW is moving 40k and to some degree Fantasy into bigger, larger kits. Large kits will be harder and more expensive to recreate. GW doesn't want to be taken over by the "do it yourself" crowd. And competitors does not have the muzzle to create as many large kits.

Unfortunately for the 40k game hobby fliers and titans make little to no sense game-wise. Nice models, but they tend to dominate the game. And fortifications makes little to no sense as well. For a siege scenario and special missions sure. But it doesn't make sense that most games now get played with fortifications. So much for meeting engagements where one or both parties just happen to have a portable fortification.

GW has also turned to churning out thin hardcover books with few rules and bloated prices in a high speed to satiate the never-ending greed of the stock-holders at the expense of the hobbyist. Why do we have to lug around escalation and stronghold assault when they fit fine in one volume. Why should we pay for dataslates when they come out the same time as thin codex books anyways.

GW is desperate to print money and is trying to find new ways. Epic Armageddon is probably the best game system (after Blood Bowl) that GW ever produced. But why update a game where a whole space marine army could be represented on one broadside sized sprue? Epic does not allow GW to bleed their customers dry the same way or will be so overpriced that no one will touch it.

In the end, GWs spiralling greed is undermining what made the company great in the beginning; all the small and cool games, skirmish games, board games, small scale games, great white dwarf magazine for hobbyist. It is a big business now and they can't help themselves.

Apoc makes GW a ton of money and in fact they are changing the game so much I am not sure that they are not trying to make Apoc standard.

I never got to play much Adeptus Titanicus, though I was around, but Epic 2nd edition (Space marine) was made of pure awesome. 3rd edition was a dumbed down disaster. Epic Armageddon a jewel of a game system (really intelligent if you ask me).

IcedCrow
28-03-2014, 17:11
Except focusing on big kits isn't working is it

Whether it works or not is not the question - its that producing a tank for $140 and then the same tank in micro format for $20 is a no brainer for a consumer and they realize that.

Say what you will but I've seen exponentially more super heavy tanks sold this year alone, and we are only in March, than I have combined from 2000 - 2013.

hobojebus
28-03-2014, 17:31
Whether it works or not is not the question - its that producing a tank for $140 and then the same tank in micro format for $20 is a no brainer for a consumer and they realize that.

Say what you will but I've seen exponentially more super heavy tanks sold this year alone, and we are only in March, than I have combined from 2000 - 2013.

Limiting your sales to whales at the expense of other's does not work, sure you want those big sales but you also need the smaller sales to keep you ticking over but GW has no small sales even single HQ choices are £18 now.

Numbers don't lie and the trend for GW is making less and less money each year, their 2012-2013 should of been an improvement on this trend as they released SM their big earner yet they had a large slump.

Pushing Apoc clearly hasn't reversed this downward trend, cancelling specialist games to focus just on 40k and fantasy was a mistake, but not one that can never be reversed.

IcedCrow
28-03-2014, 17:34
I don't have access to GW's micro accounting sheets to know where exactly they are losing money from, so as such I cannot comment without sounding like I do.

The only thing that is public knowledge is that they lost money last financial statement. Considering how many revenue streams that go into making the river that is GW financial - guessing beyond which stream is affected and why is conjecture on our part.

hobojebus
28-03-2014, 17:52
I don't have access to GW's micro accounting sheets to know where exactly they are losing money from, so as such I cannot comment without sounding like I do.

The only thing that is public knowledge is that they lost money last financial statement. Considering how many revenue streams that go into making the river that is GW financial - guessing beyond which stream is affected and why is conjecture on our part.

True but you can apply logic to the evidence at hand and make a good guess which is what i'm doing, waaaaaaaaay back in 2004 GW was healthy it had a fair number of specialist games like necromunda, gothic, mordheim etc shop's thronged with people and they were on turnover of 151.8 million, then they started to cut off those specialist games and shifted focus from vets to kids and the decline has been very clear.

We now have empty stores all over the UK and america, other miniature companies have risen up where before there was only GW people now have way more options and are moving over to games they view as having better rules and are more affordable.

GW has to change things around soon or the shareholders will pull out and they'll be looking for a buyout but i dont know who from.

Getting parents to spend £5 on a plastic tank is far easier than getting them to spend £40.

Captain Idaho
28-03-2014, 17:52
Apocalypse was bad for 40K as a rules set and undermined Epic, but unfortunately the masses lapped it up.

It's not GW's fault, it's the fault of every person who bought into the rule set.

MarkNorfolk
28-03-2014, 18:17
You can't blame people for liking something, just because you dislike it.

Still, I would love for GW to re-do epic. As has been said, titans made with current model technology would be awesome. Mini Wall of Martyrs and other buildings would look quite cool on the table too. It won't happen though...

Cheers
Mark

Ozendorph
28-03-2014, 18:22
I don't have access to GW's micro accounting sheets to know where exactly they are losing money from, so as such I cannot comment without sounding like I do.

The only thing that is public knowledge is that they lost money last financial statement. Considering how many revenue streams that go into making the river that is GW financial - guessing beyond which stream is affected and why is conjecture on our part.

Just a correction (that doesn't really affect your point) - as I understand it, GW didn't lose money, they just made less profit (while simultaneously reducing expenses and increasing prices).


Apocalypse was bad for 40K as a rules set and undermined Epic, but unfortunately the masses lapped it up.

It's not GW's fault, it's the fault of every person who bought into the rule set.

As one of the lapping masses, I don't see how "Apocalypse was bad for 40K as a rules set". You may not care for Apoc, which is fine, but it is effectively a different game than 40K, and doesn't (imo) affect the core rules in the slightest. In fact, I'd say the latest edition of the 40K core rules does less than ever to accommodate apocalypse-sized games. If we've got 20,000 points of big, gribbly death-machines on the table, do you think anyone cares if your Aspiring Champion wants to challenge my IG Sergeant to a fist fight? Do you expect me to wait while you roll up psychic powers for your 3-4 chaos sorcerers and all your Chaos Gifts? The current edition works much better at lower point levels. Again, my opinion only.

Voss
28-03-2014, 18:48
Should GW bring back Epic 40000 and dump apoc and escalation?
Nope. If this is the kind of game they want to make, they should drop 40K entirely and just do epic. Let someone else do a good job at 28mm 40K as a skirmish game, and just wallow in army-sized games at a proper scale for such things.

LegioDestructor
28-03-2014, 19:05
Nope, because they were totally different games, it's nothing to do with just having titans on the board. I always say that 40k makes you feel like you're the officer on the field, down there with your troops. Epic felt like you were Lord General Militant in a command bunker miles from the front, or even in orbit. That's not to say one is better than the other, for that reason Epic is definitely the 'better' game of grand strategy, but 40k still has plenty for the scale it operates at and I've always found to be more exciting.
This, times a million.

Apocalypse is meant for climactic battles, with special rules to quantify the importance and/or sheer size of the battle. It doesn't have to be 30,000pts a side. From Kill Team to Apoc there's nothing forcing you to play a set points limit. Don't like big games in 40k scale? Stop buying models after 1850pts. Still want to play Epic? As others have said there is a great community that still supports it.

The transition to larger games began over 15 years ago when 3rd Edition rolled around and Troops' points cost got shaved by almost half but [what became] the Elite and Heavy choices did not. Your 2000pt Space Marine army now needs 3 Tactical Squads to be 2000pts again. The rules got streamlined and simplified; the Movement stat disappeared and a Weapon statline went from 9 columns to 4. Clearly larger games were the direction the game was taking, five years before the first Imperial Armour was published.

IIRC Forge World's first kit was the Baneblade and was not heralded as the destruction of 40k, but rejoiced for a beautiful model that was obviously wanted by many players. There is a reason the Baneblade is now a GW plastic kit. The fact that people are "lapping it up" means that they like it - whether that means we've been brainwashed is up to your own delusions.

I don't know how adding Fliers and Titans is "unfortunate" since they are in no way mandatory. Ignore their models and rules at your discretion and enjoy the game as you play it. Dominate the game? They are obviously taking up too high a percentage of the army points, which is a problem at any scale and down to army selection [ie; you or your opponent] and not the game system. Fortifications don't make sense? In a galaxy-spanning conflict lasting thousands of years it makes a lot of sense, unless of course you're on a Exodite world or some other astonishingly rare pristine locale. They're awkward to transport, but they belong in a 1850pt game of 40k way more than a Chapter Master.

Regardless of what GW does to integrate Apoc into 40k, mix them together, or whatever; the game is what you and your opponent agree to play. If you loathe what they've done to 40k and simply cannot fathom the concept of not including the units you detest in your games, then you probably need a new hobby. You don't go to an all-you-can-eat restaurant and complain because you don't like the calamari. Don't take what you don't want. Leave the rest for those who do.

IcedCrow
28-03-2014, 19:22
The day 40k becomes strictly a skirmish game will be the day I treat 40k like I do warmahordes and infinity and every other skirmish game - I don't play it :)

Inquisitor Engel
28-03-2014, 19:30
The day 40k becomes strictly a skirmish game will be the day I treat 40k like I do warmahordes and infinity and every other skirmish game - I don't play it :)

I'm with you here. 40k has a lot of flexibility in size. I *DO* mess the old 3rd Edition Kill Team rules though, which I preferred to the current stuff.

IcedCrow
28-03-2014, 19:34
Killteam once in a while is fun yes.

Wayshuba
28-03-2014, 19:40
Its more that why would people spend money on the big titans and tanks when they can just play epic instead which costs about 1/4 the cost? If I'm trying to sell baneblades and lord of skulls and big super heavies, having EPIC around would seem very counter productive to that goal when a blister of titans is a fraction of the cost of a full size titan.

Because if you sell 20 $40 Epic Titans for every 1 $140 28mm mini-titan, what was the better path to take?

Edit: And I'm sure Hawk Wargaming, with the success of Dropzone Commander, is perfectly happy that GW stays out of Epic now.

Wayshuba
28-03-2014, 19:45
Whether it works or not is not the question - its that producing a tank for $140 and then the same tank in micro format for $20 is a no brainer for a consumer and they realize that.

Say what you will but I've seen exponentially more super heavy tanks sold this year alone, and we are only in March, than I have combined from 2000 - 2013.

And I have NO super heavy tanks at 28mm but 18 I bought for my IG Epic army when it was available. So, I spent $270.00 way back when on Epic tanks and $0 on new 28 mm 'doesn't belong in 40k" tanks. Same can be said for titan with me as well. I bet there are a lot more people like myself than not by GW financials.

See my comment on the Golden Rule of pricing (in the Pricing Thread) why GW is being just plain stupid with what they are doing with the super heavy model kits.

nosebiter
28-03-2014, 19:57
No reason you cant have both escalation/apoc and a epic scale game at the same time.

IcedCrow
28-03-2014, 20:08
And I have NO super heavy tanks at 28mm but 18 I bought for my IG Epic army when it was available. So, I spent $270.00 way back when on Epic tanks and $0 on new 28 mm 'doesn't belong in 40k" tanks. Same can be said for titan with me as well. I bet there are a lot more people like myself than not by GW financials.

See my comment on the Golden Rule of pricing (in the Pricing Thread) why GW is being just plain stupid with what they are doing with the super heavy model kits.

Sure but I don't know many people like you. I can't get a game of EPIC in, even when it was on the shelves at our stores. I've had an epic army almost as long as my 40k armies, which is a long long time... but no one would play it.

As I said before in the quote, I have seen exponentially more super heavy sales this year alone than the past 13 years combined... bean counters are not gamers. They are looking at black and white digits in a database column. Their predictability algorithms may not make sense to you or me, but it makes sense to them.

Their job is to appease stockholders short term until the cow has been bled dry, not to appease us.


No reason you cant have both escalation/apoc and a epic scale game at the same time.

again the reason is purely from an accounting perspective. They aren't going to sell the $20 micro bane blade when they want to push the $140 bane blade.

gogs78
28-03-2014, 20:13
They should take it back. "space marine" was one of the best games they ever produced.

wargame_insomniac
28-03-2014, 22:13
GW should bring back Epic Armageddon (not Epic40K). The best version of Epic ever!

Hrw-Amen
29-03-2014, 00:20
I used to like EPIC and its derivitives but for the large scale tank formations, not for tiny little men that it was hard to tell what was what. Epic with tanks was great, with infantry not so much. Apocalypes suffers from being simply two lines of everything lined up inches apart and everything just shooting more or less at whatever is opposite it. The trouble is that most people do not have the space to set up for a good Apocalyes battle, hence they just end up shooting matches from one side to the other.

On a personal note I think the idea of using everything in Apocalypse was a good idea but in practice it is just a mess. It was fun once or twice but that was it. I think it does have potential, and I do like the big models (More as projects for modelling than playing.) and they have their place in W40K but they need space to show what they are about.

Epic on the other hand was good as it required less spce, but a lot of the models were not very detailed and they did look rather gimicky especially some of ork stuff.

Should they bring Epic back, well yes it should never have gone away, but it should always have been a tank/large vehicle orientated game.

Should they keep apocalypse and the others, well yes, but not as a game of two gun lines shooting across 6 inches at each other.

hobojebus
29-03-2014, 03:14
To be fair when epic came out none of gw plastics were that good if you wanted detail you bought metal, nowadays you could do alot better than the old rhinos.

Voss
29-03-2014, 05:19
I used to like EPIC and its derivitives but for the large scale tank formations, not for tiny little men that it was hard to tell what was what.

No it wasn't. Devastators and other heavy weapons were noticeable shoulder hefted arrays, with multiples per base. No other weapons mattered at that scale. Its part of the point of 10mm games- you generalize unit abilities. Getting into a lot of detail makes for a mess.

death2uall
29-03-2014, 06:09
NO, they shouldn't discontinue Apocalypse, and to be frank, no they shouldn't continue Epic.

Here's the thing: I have no objection if the Epic or Battlefleet Gothic games continue to be played. If you can find players and some competing model company to create models for you, more power to you. But the games are simply not popular enough for GW to continue. Like TSR's Star Frontiers, they're evolutionary dead ends. There is (and was) simply not enough interest in them to continue them.

Having said that, however, I think that Games Workshop would be both doing a public service and creating a fairly large positive advertising campaign if they would simply either place their discontinued games in the public domain or create an Open Gaming License similar to that used in 3.x d20 games for them.

SleeplessKnight
29-03-2014, 06:26
New idea; play epic with 40k scale models? Just multiply all the epic measurements ten fold.

Gilfred The Iron Knight
29-03-2014, 08:03
I have played Epic with 28mm minis, I converted all units of cm to inchs (so not full scale, but but convenient). It became a manageable version of Apoc.

Irisado
29-03-2014, 17:49
The day 40k becomes strictly a skirmish game will be the day I treat 40k like I do warmahordes and infinity and every other skirmish game - I don't play it :)


I'm with you here. 40k has a lot of flexibility in size. I *DO* mess the old 3rd Edition Kill Team rules though, which I preferred to the current stuff.

I take it that you guys never played Rogue Trader before the vehicle rules were introduced ;)?

Epic 40,000 should not be brought back. It arguably killed the Epic franchise when it was introduced, since a lot of Epic players at the time, myself included, did not understand the wholesale changes to the rules from SM2 to Epic 40,000, and didn't much like them either. SM1, 2 and the current version of Epic (EA) are all excellent games, and I thoroughly recommend them to anyone who hasn't played them before. Epic was, before Epic 40,000 came along, GW's third core game, and was successful, but those days are gone.

In an ideal world, I would love to see Epic return, but it won't happen. It's a shame, but GW has decided that introducing large scale vehicles, superheavies, flyers, knights, and titans into 40K is the way to go instead. In my view, it's a terrible design from the point of view of games mechanics and balance, since none of these fit the scale for 40K, but if that's what sells, then that's sadly what GW will continue to produce.

Beppo1234
29-03-2014, 18:17
what I need is good movement trays. I like the armorcast ones, but I need 'em for all the various sizes of bases that are now in existence. That is the only thing that 40k is lacking as far as epic is concerned.... plus, it would speed up both normal and apocolipse 40k

Poseidal
29-03-2014, 19:23
No it wasn't. Devastators and other heavy weapons were noticeable shoulder hefted arrays, with multiples per base. No other weapons mattered at that scale. Its part of the point of 10mm games- you generalize unit abilities. Getting into a lot of detail makes for a mess.

Tiny men are annoying to paint though.

MusingWarboss
29-03-2014, 19:47
Ah, the old Epic debate. Truth is Epic was always a gamers game not a modeller or painters game, even in the old White Dwarfs you'd see stands of men just sprayed one colour, no detail or shading or anything! Tanks and Titans yes, because they were bigger and therefore the main feature. Gamers gravitated towards Epic, modellers and painters to the 28mm stuff.

Older Epic was a great game, back when it was popular. The 40,000 version killed it stone dead, not sure why, only ever had one game and and can't remember much about it other than it was quick.

It was probably a combination of pushing the "hobby" aspect, the 40,000 version and a push to make 28mm 40k larger that sunk it. When Apocalypse was released there was no coming back for that system, it'd been overtaken. Sad but true.

Should it come back?? Umm, I'm not sure. I've joked enough about GWs current decisions and how they had a game like that - Epic - anyway but in reality I think I side with the opinion above, I just don't think GW could bring it back now and make it a good game. It's better off in the communities hands now, Apocalypse won't go away (though I got the impression that it's not hugely popular hence Escalation to allow the Apocalypse only units to come into regular 40k) but, ironically, I think its a pretty specialist game. You need a lot of space to play it, you need a lot of models to play it, you need a lot of cash to buy into it. It's a game for clubs and those times when five or six mates all want to play in one game. Regular 40k will get more play time generally but Apocalypse is there for the times you may need it. Apocalypse seems like 40k free-for-all, I'm not too sure why it's separate from the 40k rulebook anyway, it seems like you could integrate it at the back in a "40k, 6000pts+" section.

If GW was to bring back 'Epic Scale' I think its most likely they would make a limited edition Adeptus Titanicus game full of Titans on a printed play mat like Dreadfleet and it'd be self contained. Epic as a rule system is dead. Long live NetEpic!!

leopard
29-03-2014, 20:48
Bring back Epic, ideally using the 1st edition rules as the baseline, modified around the way 40k handles force organisation, updated with aircraft rules etc. But scale it up a bit more. Keep Apoc and Escalation as they are.

Write the theme around you decide what size game you want to play and that dictates which set of rules you use - Epic only really changes infantry to be in fixed fire teams and not individually based, vehicles etc are individual. I.e. keep the point values the same in both games, you have a 1k5 force? use 40k, you have a 3k force? use Apoc, you have a 10k force? use Epic, you want a 0.5k game? use a third set of rules, 40k but with more detail and less of the big stuff.

No reason then not to use the 'epic' rules in 28mm, or the 40k rules in 6mm.

Could even out 6mm scale models inside the normal 40k boxes, and work them onto the sprues for new models - e.g. buy a 5 man 40k terminator squad, get a 20 man epic terminator detachment on the frames - you build up both armies, stops the direct cannibalisation of sales between the systems for the smaller models and avoids more stock lines to carry - replaces some of the less useful 'bitz' and in theory adds value to the sets. Then have the larger sets of vehicles etc as company sized boxes, or 'battle group' boxes similar to the old Epic scale boxes with a couple of identical frames with many different models on them - each faction only really needing say two boxes "big stuff" and "small stuff", then the rest of it in the normal 40k boxes.

Wolf Lord Balrog
29-03-2014, 20:55
I'm all for bringing it back. If they released a boxed set with Space Marines with Titan support on one side and, say, Eldar (just to be different from the old Marines vs Orks) on the other, I'd buy that. And I'd buy an Epic scale Tau army as well, if they released it.

budman
29-03-2014, 21:03
Yes I would like epic back mainly that's it pain to lug about a bunch of titans

A trio of shadow swords would fit in pocket not a Case

Kahadras
30-03-2014, 12:47
For games of huge armies back up by titans fighting it out then there's no subsitute for Epic. The old Space Marine/Titan Legions game was brilliant IMHO. I've seen a couple of Apoc games and neither seemed to have had enough room to make for a good game. On turn one who ever goes first blasts a massive chunk out of the opposing army. Return fire is greatly reduced due to casualties then on turn two the army that went first blasts most of the remaining stuff off the table. Game is called on accounts of a time limit. It could be that on both occasions it's been Imperium vs Orks and each Ork player has shown up with at least two Stompa (upside down flower pots with bits of tubing attached = Ork warmachine).

Styles
30-03-2014, 17:56
As the Horus Heresy was invented so that there was a reason titans were fighting each other in the orgional adeptus titanicus I think Epic should be rereleased but go back to its roots with it being set in the Heresy, as its the only was that real battles on the scale from that era can be played, 40k level is far to small, it should be fleets of tanks, hundreds of marines, primarchs, titans etc which can only practically be played in Epic. With how popular the Horus Heresy is im sure it would sell well. It could then expand to other races and the current timeline.

The current epic rules are some of the best from GW and are far more realistic and tactical than 40K.

The Emperor
30-03-2014, 20:35
Dump Apocalypse and Epic? Hell no! It'd be horrible if GW were to suddenly say "Sorry, but all those $160 models you bought? Yeah, we're no longer going to support them rules wise in the game. Tough luck."

But bring back Epic 40,000? Hell yes! I always wanted to try Epic, but sadly could never afford it before they finally discontinued it. If they were to bring it back, though, then I'd play it.

Spider-pope
30-03-2014, 20:41
They shouldn't dump Apocalypse or Escalation at all, but they should absolutely bring back an Epic scale wargame. Fielding a big army in 40k is great, as is fielding units like Knights and super heavies. But an Epic game offers an alternate way of showing really big wars that is sadly missed.
And while you are at it, bring back Battlefleet Gothic too.

hobojebus
30-03-2014, 20:47
They shouldn't dump Apocalypse or Escalation at all, but they should absolutely bring back an Epic scale wargame. Fielding a big army in 40k is great, as is fielding units like Knights and super heavies. But an Epic game offers an alternate way of showing really big wars that is sadly missed.
And while you are at it, bring back Battlefleet Gothic too.

Hell yes bring back gothic.

The Emperor
30-03-2014, 20:54
Agreed on both counts. Battlefleet Gothic's another one I always wanted to get into but was discontinued before I was able to afford it.

Popsical
30-03-2014, 21:32
I play 1st ed space marine and adeptus titanicus, they are a superb system and i hope to find more like minded folks to game against.
Will GW bring back EPIC? NO. End of.

They now make many super heavy vehicles and titans, any players that they distract from 40k buy releasing smaller versions for less money is terrible business sense.
The investment GW have made in promoting and producing these new kits has to be justified to the board of directors and shareholders, to then say to them "hey, lets give people the option NOT to buy the new expensive models that we asked you to approve for mass production, and offer them a cheaper option that requires more expense in R & D and model production!" is just plain stupidity.
GW have made a decision to throw their full weight behind the flagship systems, and dump any distractions.
Im done with 40k and WHFB as they cost too much and take up too much space to play and store.
Meh, i will stick to EPIC scale and look at my mates hugely expensive models that die in a turn to various cheap shots and gimmick units, they can keep em.

Lanacane
30-03-2014, 21:51
Should GW bring back Epic 40000 and dump apoc and escalation?

No.. at least Apoc and Esc is played more than once a special occasion as Epic was.

Last time i saw Epic played in a GW was last millennium.

Karak Norn Clansman
30-03-2014, 21:57
No. They make much more money from selling 40k Knights and Stompas than from selling Epic Knights and Stompas.

Kingly
30-03-2014, 22:05
Epic was ace but it's come and gone, not enough people liked it nor played it so it's time in the sun is unfortunately over, shame.

Poseidal
30-03-2014, 22:19
No.. at least Apoc and Esc is played more than once a special occasion as Epic was.

Last time i saw Epic played in a GW was last millennium.

No one plays Apoc or Esc round here.

Even the 'big games' (several players, 5000+ points over the day) didn't use those rules. Just standard 6th edition.

MusingWarboss
31-03-2014, 04:03
Hell no! It'd be horrible if GW were to suddenly say "Sorry, but all those $160 models you bought? Yeah, we're no longer going to support them rules wise in the game. Tough luck."


Didn't stop them in 1999 when 3rd 40k was released. :'(

The Emperor
31-03-2014, 04:09
Last time i saw Epic played in a GW was last millennium.

Isn't that right around the time when GW stopped to seriously support the game?

Geep
31-03-2014, 04:23
No.. at least Apoc and Esc is played more than once a special occasion as Epic was.

Last time i saw Epic played in a GW was last millennium.
This is more to do with the usual fluctuation between groups, and the attitude of GW, than any negative on Epic's part (or Warmaster or BFG for that matter).
I know some groups where, even today, Epic is more popular than 40k.
As for 'being played in a GW', that's a poor standard to go by. Up until fairly recently GW still sold and supported Epic- but few GW store managers would have let you play it in their store. GW wanted to kill it off for a long time, so they actively discouraged its presence.

itcamefromthedeep
31-03-2014, 04:40
No, they shouldn't ditch Apocalypse or Escalation. They should write sensible rules for them. It's entirely possible.

They should also support Epic. I think Specialist Games are Gee Dubya's best to way to try to win back market share from other minis games.

Incidentally, I think they should write Epic rules that also happen to be compatible with 28mm models. The more ways you have to use a model kit the less likely it is that the kit will be left unsold. That's why I think it would be smart to come out with Necromunda gangs, alongside rules and sprues for using them as Guardsmen. Similarly, come out with a ruleset that works well for large numbers of 40k minis, but doesn't compete with the smaller engagements you see at the normal 40k scale. In the same way, Necromunda offers an opportunity to do a skirmish version of the game that allows another avenue for selling normal 40k minis. By making different rules an points values for the same models in each environment GW allows itself room to move stock of a given kit so long as it's at least okay in any game among a set of 3.

Of course, they tried doing something like that with War of the Ring, but *man* that game was bad. It hurts me to remember how bad that game was. Disassociated mechanics all over the place and a ridiculously poor way of representing what was going on, nevermind the abysmal internal and external balance issues.

rocdocta
31-03-2014, 04:54
I GW have made a decision to throw their full weight behind the flagship systems, and dump any distractions.


is it a flagship system when its only 1 of 3 systems?

Popsical
31-03-2014, 08:18
Id love Granny to bring back the old policy of multi-system sales and minor game production.
White dwarf is a classic example of this, when re-reading my late 80s and early nineties WD episodes i can see why it used to sell in comparison to the last 10 to 15 years.
The reason is that Granny used to sell a dozen systems and games that they could regularly release tid-bits in WD to supplemnet them. This gave gamers and modellers ample reason to purchase a magazine that served the hobby as an aid rather than a catalogue or sales advert.
It was a policy that saw off all competition at the time, and made GW great, now it has been forgotten in the drive for corporate profit.

Darnok
31-03-2014, 11:08
Didn't stop them in 1999 when 3rd 40k was released. :'(

Please tell me what models you were no longer able to use under 3rd edition?

...

Thought so. ;)

Spider-pope
31-03-2014, 11:30
GW have made a decision to throw their full weight behind the flagship systems, and dump any distractions.


If only they had a sub company that specialized in even more niche products that required smaller production runs and were cast in resin rather than metal and plastic, lowering mold costs.

But what do we know, we're only the customers who would spend money on such a thing.

Darnok
31-03-2014, 11:38
If only they had a sub company that specialized in even more niche products that required smaller production runs and were cast in resin rather than metal and plastic, lowering mold costs.

That company is tasked with supporting the poorer lines, to make them more attractive. Everything else - like pumping almost all their ressources into the one army that already outsells all others - would be utter madness.

:cries:

MusingWarboss
31-03-2014, 13:06
Please tell me what models you were no longer able to use under 3rd edition?

...

Thought so. ;)

Boarboyz, Weirdboys, Shock Attack Gun, Snotlings, Madboys, Zodgrod Wortsnagga, Ogryn (under Orks). None of those appear in Codex: Orks under 3rd.

Then there are the field artillery units which got dumbed down, so you could use them but they were in no way the fun and unique weapons they were (and which were brought to use in that way).

Of course you *could* just use the models as ordinary Boyz but that doesn't alter the fact that you paid (£Ä$•) for a model with a specific purpose and those rules were whipped away from you.

Darnok
31-03-2014, 13:26
Boarboyz, Weirdboys, Shock Attack Gun, Snotlings, Madboys, Zodgrod Wortsnagga, Ogryn (under Orks). None of those appear in Codex: Orks under 3rd.

Then there are the field artillery units which got dumbed down, so you could use them but they were in no way the fun and unique weapons they were (and which were brought to use in that way).

Of course you *could* just use the models as ordinary Boyz but that doesn't alter the fact that you paid (£€$•) for a model with a specific purpose and those rules were whipped away from you.

Dammit. I completely forgot that Orks lost some of their units. :eek:

I still consider that a very different case to all the current "big models". Nothing from the list above couldn't be fielded with a bit of creativity and different rules. That would not be possibly at all with things like the Stompa, Wraithknight, Knight and similar big sized models. The difference is between "still being able to use the models, if only with different rules" and "not being able to use the models at all".

Anyway, I don't think anything like this will happen. It would be complete suicide on GWs part.

MusingWarboss
31-03-2014, 14:22
The current huge models are a bad idea to have them brought into 40k for that very reason - they should have kept them in Apocalypse. They can't ignore them in the future nor can they continue to go bigger unless they decide to make it LRP! (6' titan suits anyone?)

I doubt GW will bring back Epic under the current management, the only possibility like I said earlier is as a Titan based self-contained 1000 box run.

EDIT: Thinking about it they could spin off the big models into a game of its own, like Adeptus Titanicus and phase them out of regular 40k. Then they'd still be usable just under different rules. And if after a few years it wasn't profitable - scrap it - like the SG range.

If course that would assume that they wanted to remove them from the game in the future and actually make other new games, which I think is unlikely at the moment.

hobojebus
31-03-2014, 14:35
They can't ignore them in the future nor can they continue to go bigger unless they decide to make it LRP! (6' titan suits anyone?)

I'm available for ork gargant jobs, i charge £50 an hour and must be supplied with a steady supply of orange tango and fried chicken, cause standing on your models as i perform stomp attacks needs plenty of energy.

Lanacane
31-03-2014, 15:00
EDIT: Thinking about it they could spin off the big models into a game of its own



or Apocalypse.. which they already have.

Poseidal
31-03-2014, 15:07
or Apocalypse.. which they already have.

Apocalypse isn't nearly as detailed enough for it to work, while being far too detailed in other (irrelevant) areas for that sort of game.

Fear Ghoul
31-03-2014, 16:49
Please tell me what models you were no longer able to use under 3rd edition?

...

Thought so. ;)

I guess that depends on your definition of unplayable. Proxying is always an option but some people don't play against proxied armies and others would no doubt be annoyed that they can't use their models as intended. Examples include the Tarantula and Rapier Laser Destroyer (Ultramarines), Beastmen (Chaos), Allies (everybody), Harlequins (Eldar), and I'm sure there is much more (I've been told Orks lost a lot of stuff).

MusingWarboss
31-03-2014, 17:38
or Apocalypse.. which they already have.

I did mention that in that post. Anyway, I was referring to a game which used solely large models so they could be proportionally powerful to their status in the fluff rather than hampered for the Apoc/Esc version where they have to give troops a chance. In reality troops wouldn't face up to a Titan and be of any use at all.

It's the constant bugbear people have with them, how can a Superheavy or these large walkers be simultaneously vulnerable to troops but yet have weapons which can wipe out half a table. What's the point of those weapons if troops can take them out with lesser equipment.

It's just plain logic. 40k should be troop level fighting and "Apocalypse" or a 28mm Adeptus Titanicus should be about massive vehicles/robots smashing each other about.

itcamefromthedeep
31-03-2014, 22:17
In reality troops wouldn't face up to a Titan and be of any use at all.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2juzgbOzaI

Luke Skywalker v AT-AT
Shadow of the Colossus
Kratos v anything big
Demon's Souls (Let's face it, most things you can call "boss fights")
Attack on Titan
Kaneda's laser gun

In a world of mighty heroes and Tactical Dreadnought Armor, I think it's entirely fair for infantry to be relevant. If even one dude with a laser sword and grenade can fight a super-heavy, why not give a Guardsman a chance?


It's the constant bugbear people have with them, how can a Superheavy or these large walkers be simultaneously vulnerable to troops but yet have weapons which can wipe out half a table. What's the point of those weapons if troops can take them out with lesser equipment.Because... they can take out half a table when they fire?

"Can kill lots of things" and "Is technically killable, but difficult to kill" seem like an appropriate pair of qualities for a Titan.


It's just plain logic.Even if that were the case, this game is about the rule of cool.

Litcheur
31-03-2014, 23:48
Should GW bring back Epic 40000
Definitely. :D

Epic was a fine game that should be reedited. The game system worked really nicely to make you feel like you're fielding huge armies. Not to mention the scale that made it possible. You could field armies that actually looked like armies, with shooting ranges that weren't look ridiculous compared to the size of the miniatures, fighting around cities, large industrial complexes...

Things you simply can't have if you play with 28mm minis.


and dump apoc and escalation?
Probably. :o

The largest kits of late simply look ridiculous in a 28mm game. Apart from some very, very specific scenarios, flyers, superheavies and titans are definitely wrong in platoon-sized game where you're supposed to move individually and keep track of the equipment of each and every soldier.
And don't even get me started on the "30 infantrymen, 1 superheavy" army lists or on D-Weapons in Escalation.

Samsonov
01-04-2014, 00:03
If you have the space, the time and the models then I'm sure apocolypse is entertaining. Not very realistic but still probably enjoyable. For those of us who want something more realistic and more manageable, any of the epic rulesets is a good starting point. For that matter, this point applies to 40k in general. Not played 6th edition but am I correct to say that in one movement phase some planes move at three times the speed of infantry (18 inches to 6 inches)? Go try and run at a third the speed of a plane. Not realistic. Epic handles this much better, let alone super heavy vehicles.

MusingWarboss
01-04-2014, 00:55
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2juzgbOzaI

Luke Skywalker v AT-AT
Shadow of the Colossus
Kratos v anything big
Demon's Souls (Let's face it, most things you can call "boss fights")
Attack on Titan
Kaneda's laser gun

In a world of mighty heroes and Tactical Dreadnought Armor, I think it's entirely fair for infantry to be relevant. If even one dude with a laser sword and grenade can fight a super-heavy, why not give a Guardsman a chance?.

Or David vs Goliath if you want to go back to one of the first of those types of stories. Aren't they the exception that proves the rule though? It's not hordes of men, it's one hero. Which would be a return to herohammer. In which case we may as well skirmish again.


Because... they can take out half a table when they fire?.

"Can kill lots of things" and "Is technically killable, but difficult to kill" seem like an appropriate pair of qualities for a Titan..
Which is soooo much fun when you're removing 60-70 models off a table at the end of turn one having never used them. Gosh, it's almost as if the models should be mounted to some kind of unit basing, maybe with five models on... Then you could have the unit working instead of lots of individuals which gets fiddly when you have so many on the table.

If a Titan can be taken out by a guardsman with a grenade it doesn't say much for the Titan. There's currently a hobbling of them going on because they have to fit into a troop game, whereas in epic, the troops were made to fit into the world of the tanks and titans.

At some point, no matter how much fluff writing or coolness goes into it, it just looks daft if a basic trooper can take out a Titan and it happens often. The stores mentioned above should be one in a million heroics, not every day occurrences.


Even if that were the case, this game is about the rule of cool.

There's nothing cool about insta-win weapons. Would you be happy if GW released an addon for one of its armies, but not the ones you play, that allowed it an orbital barrage before that player sets up their troops which has a 12'x6' blast radius and ignores cover, and had multiple D-strength? Coz that'd be cool right? Firing from your mega-ship in spaaaaace!!!

mpepperdine
01-04-2014, 00:59
I think they should rewind the clocks to mid-5th ed. and start again.

Samsonov
01-04-2014, 01:16
Would you be happy if GW released an addon for one of its armies, but not the ones you play, that allowed it an orbital barrage before that player sets up their troops which has a 12'x6' blast radius and ignores cover, and had multiple D-strength? Coz that'd be cool right? Firing from your mega-ship in spaaaaace!!!Actually, I can see this happening. GW finally listens to the customers and brings back battlefleet gothic! Of course, only for apocalypse games...

Smooth Boy
01-04-2014, 01:45
It's always the same, while all the specialist games were still 'supported' (I'll use that term loosely) I was always interesting in starting them but never did because I always wanted to add to my 40k army and have these huge battles. Now I'm older and I have a modestly large army I want 40k scaled back, or at least have a clear distinction between apocalypse, and I miss the specialist games I never played. As people have said, the way Fantasy's going I'd be happier to see them try and reinvigorate that rather than take on new systems... or old systems? Call me heretical but if they ever did bring it back I'd be interested in a 10mm scale like Flames of War, what was it before? 6mm? Best chance I can see for it is a limited release box set which would be a shame to see it reduced to Dreadfleet.

itcamefromthedeep
01-04-2014, 03:48
If a Titan can be taken out by a guardsman with a grenade it doesn't say much for the Titan. There's currently a hobbling of them going on because they have to fit into a troop game, whereas in epic, the troops were made to fit into the world of the tanks and titans.Well the Epic Armageddon rulebook that I'm looking at tells me that a base of Guardsmen can kill a Warlord. It's unlikely, but by no means impossible.

Titans in 40k tend to be stronger than they are in Epic, by way of being much killier with their Destroyer weapons. For instance a Reaver with turbolasers in Epic would only hit about as hard as 24 lascannons.

In Epic, 20 stands of Ork Boyz would be a big problem for a Titan. In 40k... not so much.

However, a Titan isn't quite as durable in 40k because of things like podded Sternguard with meltas.

Hendarion
01-04-2014, 05:42
big units and big battles is something that should be done on a smaller scale!!!! Your personal opinion. I on the other hand never liked those tiny-tiny models. I always had been attracted by the sheer size of Revenants and Phantoms.

lanrak
01-04-2014, 11:27
Big units and huge battles are more PRACTICAL in smaller scale.

The size of minatures you prefer to paint and collect is completely subjective opinion.

I think these are not mutually exclusive.

Ozendorph
01-04-2014, 16:24
I have a lot of respect for the Epic rule system, though I've only played a few times (and a few different versions).

However, Apocalypse has a great deal of appeal for me. I get to use my existing (beloved) minis, instead of buying and painting up another "proprietary" army. I use my existing terrain. It's definitely not a practical endeavor, what with the toaster-sized SH tanks and all, but it looks spectacular and my titans double as decoration in my game room. The rules need a ton of work though, not even going to argue that.

edit: I meant to mention - someone talked about taking infantry out of the equation and solely using the big toys. Doing that destroys the sense of scale and power. Warhound titans are "huge" because they're huge relative to something else (infantry, light vehicles, etc). Melta-cannons and Plasma Blast Guns are only "devastating" because their damage output is far greater than meltaguns and plasma pistols. Incinerating hordes of infantry (and having your own incinerated) is part of the fun, because it makes it all the more epic when a handful of your guardsmen (for example) survive the onslaught and capture an objective/meltabomb the Battle Fortress/save the day.

draccan
01-04-2014, 16:41
As I mentioned earlier in this thread GW is pursuing profit in a whole new way right now and there is no way EPIC fits their strategy. Not because EPIC wouldn't sell, it totally would, but why give gamers an easy access to Apocalypse games, when said armies could be on one or two large plastic sprues.

It's sad especially since my Epic armies would love some of the new models, new knights, new imperial vehicles, hell even a 30k legion army, spartans, crassus etc. etc.

At least we have Dropzone Commander and their amazing models!

hobojebus
01-04-2014, 17:34
Well I was thinking there is a game similar in scale and style to epic, catalyst have recently been bringing the battletech franchise back and they do a book called alpha strike designed to let you use larger forces without the classic versions bookkeeping.

Battlemechs are like the titans, you have tanks, infantry both in and out of power armour, fighter craft and even protomechs that are similar to knights, it's not exactly the same but it is at least in print and supported.

MusingWarboss
01-04-2014, 17:48
edit: I meant to mention - someone talked about taking infantry out of the equation and solely using the big toys. Doing that destroys the sense of scale and power. Warhound titans are "huge" because they're huge relative to something else (infantry, light vehicles, etc). Melta-cannons and Plasma Blast Guns are only "devastating" because their damage output is far greater than meltaguns and plasma pistols. Incinerating hordes of infantry (and having your own incinerated) is part of the fun, because it makes it all the more epic when a handful of your guardsmen (for example) survive the onslaught and capture an objective/meltabomb the Battle Fortress/save the day.

That would be me. I totally understand using your existing models, which is in fact GWs selling point for Apocalypse, but really its about a sense of scale. The bigger the battles the more space needed at 28mm. If you're playing on a sports field it'd be a truly impressive battle but you can get the same sense from using a smaller scale, whether it be 15, 10 or 6mm. It'd also fit into your existing gaming space better. GWs problem with scenery is that they only make 28mm stuff, RoBB included. Back when Epic was popular people made their own and a flat board, hills trees etc could be used with it or 28mm. It was only buildings you needed to swap out.

I had to bold your line there. It sums up what we're talking about perfectly. Heck, even GW in its Apoc WD used the word Epic to describe the battles. It had less infantry and tanks and titans in the game than I used back in 92-ish on my 4'x3' table!

But yeah, 28mm is cool in a modelling perspective but as a one size fits all gaming scale, not so good. 28mm Man-O-War may look cool but the space required would be huge!!

draccan
01-04-2014, 17:52
Let's play 40k at this weekend with my knights and titans and dozens of hardcover rulebooks with three pages of rules in each:

190540

Or Epic:
190541

Irisado
01-04-2014, 18:36
Your personal opinion. I on the other hand never liked those tiny-tiny models. I always had been attracted by the sheer size of Revenants and Phantoms.

Titans are hardly tiny at Epic scale ;). They're actually pretty large models, yet they can easily be transported around. It's all a matter of relativity admittedly, so I can only imagine that this is what you were referring to.

Ozendorph
01-04-2014, 18:46
But yeah, 28mm is cool in a modelling perspective but as a one size fits all gaming scale, not so good. (snip)

I hear ya. Everyone is different, but for me Epic scale is a bit like watching Braveheart on my phone ;).

Bottom line, I'd love for both systems to be available, but I won't lie and say I'd collect an epic army. I'd rather play at 28mm, despite logistical issues etc

Hendarion
02-04-2014, 05:48
Titans are hardly tiny at Epic scale ;). They're actually pretty large models, yet they can easily be transported around. It's all a matter of relativity admittedly, so I can only imagine that this is what you were referring to.Titans in epic are like normal models in 40k or a bit larger. For me, this is tiny. And normal units are "tiny tiny". They are so small, hard to figure many of the details - not to mention painting them. Sure they can be easily transported. Doesn't mean I like them or their size though.

The Emperor
02-04-2014, 06:10
I really wish GW would bring back Epic. Big battles in 40k are nice, but they really can't compare to this.

190596

Darnok
02-04-2014, 07:43
I really wish GW would bring back Epic. Big battles in 40k are nice, but they really can't compare to this.

190596

Exchange the Warlord for a Reaver, and the Dominatrix for a Hierophant, and you can replicate the models in that picture just fine in 40K. It would need a big enough table, but the battle shown is not a real issue with Apoc these days.

Dunno wether you are serious here, I guess not.

Popsical
02-04-2014, 07:53
28mm scale apocalypse style games suffer from several issues that spoil the game for me:
1. Lack of movement, other than charging in turn 2
2. Ranges of weapons being so long that in turn 1 pretty much everyone is blasting away
3. Titans mince around the table for fear that walking normally the might exit the battlefield
4. Absurd templates and firepower levels mean sweeping off figs by the bucket load in turn 1(which some of us have spent many hard days painting)
5. Every mission seems to become a meat grinder... yawn.

The Emperor
02-04-2014, 08:33
Exchange the Warlord for a Reaver, and the Dominatrix for a Hierophant, and you can replicate the models in that picture just fine in 40K. It would need a big enough table, but the battle shown is not a real issue with Apoc these days.

Dunno wether you are serious here, I guess not.

That was the first picture I could find on short notice. And yes, I am serious, but I guess I should've expected someone to nitpick me, so let's get down to specifics.

190598

190601

190602

190603

190604

190605

Here're some better pics taken from some White Dwarf back issues. Epic is just at a better scale to depict mass battles than 40k, and doesn't require massive game space to realistically do so. Not to mention that collecting the forces is a lot cheaper. Just look at that last picture. Can you recreate that entire army in Apocalypse? Sure. Everything there exists in 40k. But ball parking it, we're talking about a 13,000 point army which'll run you about $5,000 for just the three Reavers and three Thunderhawks, nevermind the rest of the Space Marine army (195 Space Marines, 39 Rhino chassis tanks, and 5 Land Speeders).

So while an Apocalypse game can be fun on occasion, it's not something which can be played as readily as an Epic game. The scale of the miniatures just makes the whole thing easier, and laid out on a table, it all looks pretty impressive, without requiring multiple tables in a large room so everyone's not tripping over each other.

The Emperor
02-04-2014, 08:38
One wonders how big the game space would have to be to represent this battle in an Apocalypse game. :eek:

190607

nosebiter
02-04-2014, 08:42
Wauv, those images fired up a serious case of want in me. Much more so then any apoc pictures manages.

Darnok
02-04-2014, 08:48
That was the first picture I could find on short notice. And yes, I am serious, but I guess I should've expected someone to nitpick me, so let's get down to specifics.

Ah, then you just started off with a particularly bad example. :D

Those other pictures support your points much better, and I completely agree with you on this matter.

Samsonov
02-04-2014, 08:53
Epic 30,000 would be so beautiful. Such a missed opportunity. And I fully agree with the pictures posted above. Unless you have an utterly massive table then Epic is much more epic than Apocalypse.

draccan
02-04-2014, 10:04
Here's a pic from one of my Epic battles from 2013. My relatively unpainted Imperial Fists against my opponents equally unpainted Orks.
190608

I only had one titan in the game, miniatures and buildings not yet painted, but still it felt very erm Epic. With Epic you can maneuvre on the board. With Apocalypse you are stuck for the most part and it just becomes a shootout from round 1. I can imagine the mayhem of Apocalypse can be fun for some, but as a more balanced game Epic is much better. All phases of the game matter, movement, shooting, assault, flyers, transports etc. And the average foot soldier can win games.

My unfinished army:
190609

EDIT: I guess my point with this is that I agree with The Emperor (after all I play Imperial Fists so I have to agree with the Emperor :D).
If you look at my battle we could easily have brought in an Imperator titan a few Warlord Titans, 10-20 more tanks and some tacticals (and similar Great Gargants, Gargants and Stompas for the Orks). And STILL have had a real gaming experience with moving, shooting, assaulting, using cover while moving, planning the use of fliers carefully.

Could be lack of experience, but Apocalypse just doesn't seem to be that game for me... :)

The Emperor
02-04-2014, 10:38
I guess my point with this is that I agree with The Emperor (after all I play Imperial Fists so I have to agree with the Emperor :D).

As well you should. ;)


If you look at my battle we could easily have brought in an Imperator titan a few warlords, 10-20 more tanks and some tacticals (and similar Great Gargants, Gargants and Stompas) for the Orks. And STILL have had a real gaming experience with moving, shooting, assaulting, using cover while moving, planning the use of fliers carefully.

Agreed. It's fantastic seeing just how much you brought and still have an expansive and spacious area to play on. And I love how much more impressive the terrain looks when it dwarfs most of the miniatures on the playing surface. Looking at that game board almost brings a tear to my eye, and really makes me wish that GW would make a serious attempt at bringing Epic 40,000 back.

Irisado
02-04-2014, 11:41
Titans in epic are like normal models in 40k or a bit larger. For me, this is tiny. And normal units are "tiny tiny". They are so small, hard to figure many of the details - not to mention painting them. Sure they can be easily transported. Doesn't mean I like them or their size though.

It depends what you mean by normal models. They're bigger than infantry models by a significant margin, and since infantry is the bread and butter of 40K, I'd be more inclined to refer to them as 'normal'.

Painting Epic infantry is really easy incidentally, and I loathe painting, so in my view that's not an issue.

Anyway, back to the issue at hand. Regardless of which system is preferable among the players here, there is no doubt in my mind that the rules for large war engines are much better in Epic, because it's a much more suitable scale for these kinds of models. That for me is very important, but unfortunately none of this matters a great deal to GW, and that's why, in addition to the aforementioned financial reasons, Epic won't be brought back.

draccan
02-04-2014, 12:01
An Emperor titan in Epic is like a Riptide in 40k. A Warlord or Reaver titan in Epic is more or less the same as a Dreadnought (not what I would call small). A Warhound is a like a Terminator. An Epic knight is like a Tactical Marine in 40k.

Edit: And on that token: Epic is more like regular 40k without escalation. A regular game of 40k usually has room to move, shoot, use cover, assault and objective snatching is quite important.
Apocalypse is to 40k kinda like you wanted to play Epic Armageddon with Battlefleet Gothic ships on the table. There isn't really room for it.

zoggin-eck
02-04-2014, 13:04
I love my itty-bitty Epic figures. I painted some last year:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?373393-A-new-hobby-room-means-I-need-to-get-painting!&p=6805854&viewfull=1#post6805854

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?373393-A-new-hobby-room-means-I-need-to-get-painting!&p=6814379&viewfull=1#post6814379

I really must paint some other stuff, so it isn't all a power-armour fest, though. :(

Painting the tanks really reminded me how nice a set of new "30k" releases would be and possibly relevant to today's market. Just basic marine, terminator, tanks and titan kits.

I find it amusing how many people say epic was a "great game", they should "bring Epic back". Which exactly are people asking for? :) There were multiple distinct versions of Epic. Adeptus Titanicus, Space Marine/Titan Legions, Epic 40,000 or compromise edition can be as far apart as 1st 40k/WHFB and their current editions. I think often people just refer to the games by their scale. Perhaps a completely new edition would be best anyway. Anyone unhappy with a new edition would carry on as usual or develop old editions themselves, as is already the case.

Again, if we're all in wish-list mode anyway, why not wish GW would keep both? The fact that a 40k scale knight exists doesn't ruin my memory of the 6mm ones. If someone wants a huge centrepiece model, display model or even play huge Apocalypse games, then go for it. If your eyes are so stuffed they can't see 6mm, bully for you :) (Oh, and I guess those people don't paint faces, gems or pouches either :p

AmKhaibitu
02-04-2014, 13:20
Personally I feel that if they're going to take the game to epic scale warfare, they need to scale up the epic rules and use those instead of 40k.
40k isn't designed for such scales, but for squad level.

Popsical
02-04-2014, 23:16
The thing is, thats exactly why GW are keeping going on the apocalypse style front.
The more figs you need, to top up the table top due to absurd fire power, the better for GW sales.
Who cares?
Please granny, sod off and leave epic alone, its better off without you.
Blood bowl has thrived without grannies meddling and so can Epic.

Freman Bloodglaive
03-04-2014, 08:17
Wauv, those images fired up a serious case of want in me. Much more so then any apoc pictures manages.

They recapture the fun I recall from my first game in 2nd edition. A store game where I controlled an Ultramarines Dreadnought. It might be the bright colours and general wackiness as well of course.

I actually could have bought an Imperator titan back in the day, instead I let it pass. The only thing I regret as much was passing up the opportunity to buy a NOS Cold Steel Voyager X2.

Abaraxas
03-04-2014, 08:39
While I'm not going to pretend I don't think Stompas, Knights and the like are lovely models I don't have any and I don't think they belong in 28mm games-nor do flyers.

Are they going to end up selling the starships in 28mm scale too?

Looking at my armies I only have a couple of tanks and a battlewagon-I've always been a troops kind of guy.

The Emperor
03-04-2014, 08:47
Blood bowl has thrived without grannies meddling and so can Epic.

Blood Bowl? Maybe. It requires few enough miniatures that you could probably get a full team on eBay and never look back (I've found the same to be true of Necromunda. I've found plenty of Gangers on eBay). It's near impossible finding any units for Epic, however, much less a full army. In light of that I wish GW would meddle, because then I might actually own an army. :\

Fizzy
03-04-2014, 08:56
80% of my games in total have been apocalypse games so no. I enjoy it. Never liked epic.

MarkNorfolk
03-04-2014, 11:08
Personally I feel that if they're going to take the game to epic scale warfare, they need to scale up the epic rules and use those instead of 40k.
40k isn't designed for such scales, but for squad level.

I remember that back in the early days of Epic they played epic with 40k minis at a Games Day (Armorcast and scrtchbuilt stuff for Titans etc) on an indoor sports court.

Cheers
Mark

Sanai
03-04-2014, 11:19
If you brought in epic, people would still want to play big games of 40k with Titans.

If your problem is that apocalypse is too expensive.... well no one is forcing you to play apocalypse. There are always plenty of people willing to give you a game of regular 40k, or even Kill-Team now that it is available digitally.

Bring back Epic, sure. But don't expect it to replace apocalypse. People enjoy apocalypse. People wanted and asked for apocalypse, so Games Workshop gave it to them.

Before there was Apocalypse people tried to play big battles and found it more difficult because they had to resort to scratchbuilding/armorcast and because they either had to make up rules or try to adapt epic rules. They did this while epic was around and available to them, but chose to do it with 40k models anyway.

Apocalypse isn't just a grab for money- its Games Workshop providing what people wanted.

The Emperor
03-04-2014, 11:32
Apocalypse isn't just a grab for money- its Games Workshop providing what people wanted.

Agreed wholly. IMO, increasing options is always a better idea than limiting them (And God knows I've wanted a Thunderhawk Gunship for my Space Marines for going on 20 years or so). I like playing big battles from time to time, and even back during 2nd edition would occasionally devote an entire weekend to playing a huge battle (During which time we avoided hand-to-hand combat like the plague due to how time consuming combat was then). Ideally, though, both would be available. As fun as a huge 40k game is from time to time, Epic does a much better job at mass battles. And to me, anyway, it looks more impressive, as it does look like a massive war being fought on a major front, rather than troops piled on top of each other like they're riding around in a clown car.

Not to mention that it's a far more realistic prospect to not only own three Thunderhawk Gunships, three Reaver Titans, and 10 Imperial Knights in Epic than it is in 40k, but you're also much more likely to see them deployed regularly in your games of Epic than in 40k...

Sanai
03-04-2014, 11:36
Of course it is all a moot point, because what we should all be focusing on is bringing back support for battlefleet gothic before epic 40k- Battlefleet Gothic was by far the best thing games workshop ever made, and the fact that they have stopped selling the models for Battlefleet Gothic is the biggest tragedy of our time..... of course the problem is that if they brought back battlefleet gothic, they would probably end up writing new rules for it, and you cant improve on perfection, so the rules would end up being worse.

The Emperor
03-04-2014, 11:41
I want them both! I've had this idea percolating in my head for the longest time of creating the combined forces of Ultramar, and to do that I was going to collect Space Marines and Imperial Guard not only in 40k but in Epic as well (Where I planned to collect enough Space Marines to make up the entire Ultramarines Chapter), and then get enough ships from Battlefleet Gothic to represent the Ultramarines space assets plus additional Imperial Navy ships at the disposal of Ultramar. Sadly, though, this idea came into my head just as Epic and Battlefleet Gothic were being shoved out the door and so it never came to be. :( What I wouldn't give to have both game systems back. I was always blown away by Epic every time I saw a battle report depicting a game, but sadly at the time I didn't have the disposable income to afford it. But now that I have the disposable income that I can afford it, it's nowhere in sight. So frustrating!

Sanai
03-04-2014, 12:12
If I had the money, I would ebay up a storm, get as many of the various battlefleet minis/sprues as possible, and makes moulds of all of them. To allow battlefleet gothic minis to go completely into OOP is just such a sad thing to happen.

Killgore
03-04-2014, 12:30
Let's play 40k at this weekend with my knights and titans and dozens of hardcover rulebooks with three pages of rules in each:

190540

Or Epic:
190541


OR alternatively photocopy the required rules pages?

Athelassan
03-04-2014, 17:14
Epic isn't completely incompatible with Apocalypse-scale 40K, although the arrival of the latter does crowd its space a bit. The 40K stuff just becomes more aspirational. Back in the day, it was the dream to be able to import stuff from Epic into 40K. Scratch-built Titans and Baneblades were the pride of peoples' collections. I once had a stab at a Brass Scorpion (it didn't work out). Everyone drooled over the 40K Thunderhawk when that first appeared. If the stuff was available in 40K, people would still buy both; it's just that people who like the idea of being able to play with big tanks but can't afford Forge World/40K prices have a game to play.

And as people have said there was always a slight culture divide between Epic and 40K anyway, so they'd have different markets. I guess the danger is that a streamlined Epic system at a sensible scale would bring into relief how silly it is to have so many massive vehicles and biotitans and whatever in 40K that pretty much literally don't fit comfortably on the table.


There is (and was) simply not enough interest in them to continue them.
This is difficult to judge, though, because GW have given Epic (and the other Specialist Games) absolutely no love for at least the last decade. Epic:Armageddon was barely marketed at all; it was pathetic, like they wanted it to fail. Other than the grey tab on their website, they gave virtually no acknowledgement that these games even existed any more; they weren't in the shops, they weren't in White Dwarf. But these games continue to be played. Blood Bowl in particular still has a thriving fanbase - several miniature companies actually specialise in Blood Bowl figures! That so many of the Specialist Games have such a dedicated following so long after GW effectively pulled the plug, and the prices that SG figures go for on ebay, show that there is a market for these things, if GW could be bothered to tap it.

The Emperor
03-04-2014, 17:18
Also, how many of GW's competitors are now producing miniature games which are similar to the various Specialist Games GW used to put out? I know that there's at the very least a Necromunda and Blood Bowl like game. I'm sure those people would be playing Necromunda and Blood Bowl if they were available. That's money that GW's leaving on the table for its competitors to pick up.

Popsical
03-04-2014, 21:04
Blood Bowl? Maybe. It requires few enough miniatures that you could probably get a full team on eBay and never look back (I've found the same to be true of Necromunda. I've found plenty of Gangers on eBay). It's near impossible finding any units for Epic, however, much less a full army. In light of that I wish GW would meddle, because then I might actually own an army. :\
There are lots of epic figs going on ebay all the time. Ive been collecting two legions lately for great prices.

Sanai
04-04-2014, 00:53
With Blood Bowl I would rather convert up a team using current plastic kits than buy the old metal blood bowl sculpts. Same with Mordheim or Necromunda. (Especially with Necromunda, chaos cultists are great!)

As far as Epic is concerned, I get all of the Epic 40k I need from playing Final Liberation on my PC. Goddamn that was, and still is an awesome game.

hobojebus
04-04-2014, 01:54
Final liberation was ace at the time even those cheesy live action videos showed the love put into that game, why we never got a sequel or update I don't know especially when c&c was all the rage.

It really wasn't us fans that killed specialist games they were regularly played until 2005 in my area until the management changed and they got banned, we had some awesome mordheim campaigns back in the day.

If there was no demand for such games then why does infinity exist?

Popsical
04-04-2014, 17:58
There is a demand.
GW has raised its banner in the name of corporate profit and fair play to them.
The halcyon days of the late 80s and early 90s are being copied by the lesser lights of the wargames world.
GW dont have to change and wont. The lesser companies will thrive on the neglected pickings.
Battle front have done fantastically with FoW and Privateer seem to be doing well too.
Bye bye granny, you cater for the arcade loving members of the wargames community, im not one of them. Shame it took so long and cost so much, before i realised.

hobojebus
04-04-2014, 18:22
I disagree if GW don't change they'll go bust in a few more years if the year on year profits continue to stay on the downward trend.

Their share of the market is dropping and unless they do something crazy like advertising and lowering the prices they won't be here in ten years time.

Theocracity
04-04-2014, 18:42
I disagree if GW don't change they'll go bust in a few more years if the year on year profits continue to stay on the downward trend.

Their share of the market is dropping and unless they do something crazy like advertising and lowering the prices they won't be here in ten years time.

Now all you have to do is talk about how you couldn't build power lists in 3rd edition and how you'd like assault units to teleport across the map and you'll summon Icedcrow.

Fear Ghoul
04-04-2014, 19:24
Final liberation was ace at the time even those cheesy live action videos showed the love put into that game, why we never got a sequel or update I don't know especially when c&c was all the rage.

Maybe because Final Liberation was an incredibly rubbish game?

Chancer
04-04-2014, 19:24
From a purely personal point of view I would rather they brought back Epic. I still enjoy the 40k setting, but don't like the Warhammer 40k rules, and havent since 3rd edition. I would purchase Epic, but have no interest in playing WH40K at all, and so GW would potentially gain a customer, rather than dilute an existing one. I have one Epic army, but would be very interested in acquiring more, along with terrain etc but it is very dificult to do that now unless you want to spend an awful lot of money on e-bay. Epic is still played in our club, and played by a large variety of people. I have not seen 40k played in years, even by the die hard GW fans who always play GW games of some description. Sadly that is being erroded by games like Dystopian Wars, and when I look across at a table that has Dystopian Wars on it I just keep thinking that that should have been epic, and GW really missed a trick.

Also it is easier for the setting to be explored in Epic than in 40k. A small detachment to be added to an existing army is not a massive outlay for a player on a restricted income, whereas in 40k the cost of even a single squad is getting ridiculous. Different elements could be added into the game fairly easilly, and you could do a proper combined arms force, with an Imperial Guard regiment supported by some Space Marine elements for example.

Sadly I feel that GW is entrenching and looking at retaining existing older customers and getting new children involved, rather than trying to appeal to the wider wargaming community, which would not be a bad thing in my books and would help generate some longevity.

Popsical
04-04-2014, 19:40
The day GW start to integrate WD back into the whole gaming scene the sooner they will return to a better era.
The days of WD being a monthly incentive to add more to your games were fantastic. Space hulk is a missed opportunity for Granny to make shed loads of cash, merely by releasing rules for 40k figs in your games. Really, what shortsighted idiots in their marketing cannot see the simplicity of such things?
Meh, the way they are going they deserve what they get.

hobojebus
04-04-2014, 20:06
Now all you have to do is talk about how you couldn't build power lists in 3rd edition and how you'd like assault units to teleport across the map and you'll summon Icedcrow.

I doubt his forum ban has run out yet.

Theocracity
04-04-2014, 20:16
I doubt his forum ban has run out yet.

Say it three times into a mirror to summon his ghost then. Spoooooky.

Verm1s
04-04-2014, 20:18
Should GW bring back Epic 40000 and dump apoc and escalation?

Old epic 40k was an awesome game, you could have your titans and everything, and not spend an arm and a leg on getting the massive models, I am over GW trying to make general 40k bigger! big units and big battles is something that should be done on a smaller scale!!!!

I would personally like the return of Epic 40k and the end to this arms race games workshop is throwing at us, like I am (and many of my older friends) are not going out and spending god knows on a single tank, that takes up half of book shelf on its own, yeah it might look cool, but its totally not worth it. Many of my friends are being turned of 40k and returning to fantasy because of this, its a shame, my tau are starting to look decent.

What are the warseers communities thoughts

I don't fancy reading the eight pages of previous comments. I imagine a mix of people screeching like rabid macaques at the thought of the slightest change to their favourite (only) broken money-grubbing 'game', interspersed with Epic fans giving you options and shuddering at the thought of GW getting it's clammy game-ruining mitts on Epic again. (Not that there's much danger of that - GW's hacking off any and all bits that might interfere with it's precious 'big two', slowly going into it's own heat death. At the mo it's not likely to return to anything good.)
I'm in the latter camp. You might have trouble finding an Epic 40K community (TBH I dunno), but if you're nostalgic for the general idea of Epic rather than that specific edition, NetEpic and NetEA should have you covered - personal vote for the latter - and there are some decent-looking proxies out there too. (Recently got my stuff from the second Defeat in Detail indiegogo) My biggest bit of advice for all that (and TBH, for a lot of people who've moved on from GW games to other proprietary systems): it can feel like a pity not to have something exact or official, but don't fall into the spoonfeeding rut.

MusingWarboss
04-04-2014, 20:31
Just as a thought, as the Epic systems were mostly favoured by gamers rather than painters/modellers would a relaunched Epic be the right place to test out pre-painted models under GW? Considering you could almost buy an army in one shot, wouldn't it be interesting to get a whole Imperial Fist army in one go? Painted and ready to play, with nice addons? The option could still remain to buy unpainted plastics in general boxes. Much like the way Subbuteo teams can be brought all painted up - even though it's the same figures just in different schemes and of course, unpainted for those who wanted to make their own up.

Can opened... Now, what's inside?? Worms or Spagetti??

Theocracity
04-04-2014, 20:33
Just as a thought, as the Epic systems were mostly favoured by gamers rather than painters/modellers would a relaunched Epic be the right place to test out pre-painted models under GW? Considering you could almost buy an army in one shot, wouldn't it be interesting to get a whole Imperial Fist army in one go? Painted and ready to play, with nice addons? The option could still remain to buy unpainted plastics in general boxes. Much like the way Subbuteo teams can be brought all painted up - even though it's the same figures just in different schemes and of course, unpainted for those who wanted to make their own up.

Can opened... Now, what's inside?? Worms or Spagetti??

Seems like something that could be handled nicely by FFG. They've got the license and the experience with pre-painted tactical games. You could even do the same with BFG.

MusingWarboss
04-04-2014, 20:40
Indeed it could.

gwarsh41
04-04-2014, 21:30
I think it would be nice to see away with escalation rules. I feel they are some horrid drunken love child of apoc and 40k, they should have been merged into apoc as a different battle mission. or something.

I would love to see EPIC come back! Having planetary battles would be amazing, it would also open up the possibilities of more in depth campaigns.

hobojebus
04-04-2014, 21:39
For a while you had the ability to do truely system wide campaigns where you'd fight in space using gothic to decide who controlled what resources, then you's use 40K to fight for control of key objectives, and finally end it with a huge game of either Apoc or Epic.

Decent rules combining all 3 games would of been amazing but instead they just tossed specialist games to the side.

carlisimo
04-04-2014, 23:14
As an Epic player, I’d love to see it return. It’s very hard to get people to start playing when they have to rely on a hodgepodge of 3rd party miniatures. If I didn’t like the rules I’d stick with Epic: Armageddon and NetEA army lists, just as there are people who still play Epic with a community-refined version of 2nd edition rules (NetEPIC). But I’d buy the new minis.

But it wouldn’t replace Apocalypse – as games, they’re nothing alike. And Apocalypse has a place as a silly way to use large numbers of models (or large models) at any one time. There’s a demand for extra-large 40k games. Unfortunately, the size of the models mean it’s just a big shoot’em up.

Epic uses tiny 6mm figures so that, in one turn, you can drive a company of mounted Tactical Marines halfway across the battlefield, behind an Ork vanguard to cut them off from being supported in an assault that another Marine formation will undertake later during the same turn. It’s a game of movement. You can’t get much of that in 28mm – everything moves so slowly relative to its size. The hobby aspect may not be as popular, but it’s a fantastic game.

I don’t really see GW bringing it back, though.

Mr. Ultra
04-04-2014, 23:32
Epic was fun let you use large formations and didn't take the best part of a day to Finnish.


Interesting, it's the first time I see a connection between Epic games and Finland :p

The Emperor
04-04-2014, 23:37
As an Epic player, I’d love to see it return. It’s very hard to get people to start playing when they have to rely on a hodgepodge of 3rd party miniatures.

Yeah, it's hard to get people into a game system which is no longer supported and all the difficulty that entails. :(

Popsical
04-04-2014, 23:42
As an Epic player, Iíd love to see it return. Itís very hard to get people to start playing when they have to rely on a hodgepodge of 3rd party miniatures. If I didnít like the rules Iíd stick with Epic: Armageddon and NetEA army lists, just as there are people who still play Epic with a community-refined version of 2nd edition rules (NetEPIC). But Iíd buy the new minis.

But it wouldnít replace Apocalypse Ė as games, theyíre nothing alike. And Apocalypse has a place as a silly way to use large numbers of models (or large models) at any one time. Thereís a demand for extra-large 40k games. Unfortunately, the size of the models mean itís just a big shootíem up.

Epic uses tiny 6mm figures so that, in one turn, you can drive a company of mounted Tactical Marines halfway across the battlefield, behind an Ork vanguard to cut them off from being supported in an assault that another Marine formation will undertake later during the same turn. Itís a game of movement. You canít get much of that in 28mm Ė everything moves so slowly relative to its size. The hobby aspect may not be as popular, but itís a fantastic game.

I donít really see GW bringing it back, though.

And there it is. Strategic movement.
Epic scale allows for movement to be a decisive factor in wargames.
28mm does not cater for this, but that suits GWs sales perfectly. Movement by models is not a stat to sell figures by. GWs movement rules in 40k and WFB are terrible to say the least.

Verm1s
04-04-2014, 23:56
Yeah, it's hard to get people into a game system which is no longer supported and all the difficulty that entails. :(


My biggest bit of advice for all that (and TBH, for a lot of people who've moved on from GW games to other proprietary systems): it can feel like a pity not to have something exact or official, but don't fall into the spoonfeeding rut.

;)

It won't help your situation right now, maybe not ever, but it needs more people to take up the cry...

The Emperor
05-04-2014, 00:52
I don't like using proxy models. It drives me batty. And if I'm going to end up using models from another company then I may as well just play that other game. That doesn't solve my issue, though, because part of the appeal for me is the 40k universe.

carlisimo
05-04-2014, 01:53
There are some 6mm minis designed with the 40k aesthetic in mind

http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/webstore-did.htm

http://www.onslaughtmini.com/

Bergen Beerbelly
05-04-2014, 02:26
I would love it if they re-produced Epic Space Marine/titan Legions 2nd edition with all new models and rules for the models that currently exist in forge world and 40k. Luckily, I don't really need them too as I own that entire game with all of the white dwarf supplements and tons of points of every army they made for it. Now, the problem is convincing my regular gaming group to play it. As a lot of the models are dated badly, very few people I know wish to play it.

Sanai
05-04-2014, 03:05
I disagree if GW don't change they'll go bust in a few more years if the year on year profits continue to stay on the downward trend.

They are making less profit than before, its not like they are running into debt. There is a huge difference. Almost every company in the world has had its profits take a hit lately, its what happens when you have a recession.

I will worry when I see Games Workshop closing down stores- which they aren't. Here in Australia they are opening new stores, and demand is high enough in my local area that they are looking at the idea of opening a new store very near to my location within the next few years.

Kakapo42
05-04-2014, 03:19
I will worry when I see Games Workshop closing down stores- which they aren't. Here in Australia they are opening new stores, and demand is high enough in my local area that they are looking at the idea of opening a new store very near to my location within the next few years.

Well, they did close down one store where I live (Auckland, New Zealand), though this is the only instance I have heard of one being closed down recently, and the New Zealand ones (or at least the ones in Auckland) have always tended to fluctuate in number as far as I can remember.

Zothos
05-04-2014, 03:42
In answer to the original post.

Yes they should bring Epic back.

Yes they should keep Apocalypse.

Escalation should be dumped and all traces of it burned.

Popsical
05-04-2014, 13:25
No they wont bring back epic.

Yes they will keep apoc.

No they wont dump escalation, if anything they will continue to push the envelope.

Freman Bloodglaive
06-04-2014, 06:36
Well, they did close down one store where I live (Auckland, New Zealand), though this is the only instance I have heard of one being closed down recently, and the New Zealand ones (or at least the ones in Auckland) have always tended to fluctuate in number as far as I can remember.

Fair's fair. They did plant it on Queen Street (a high rent district) with no free parking and little through traffic. If they wanted a shop for established gamers they would have put it in a place where there was free parking and easy access, and if they wanted new people they'd have put the shop in a mall as they have in St Luke's.

Nonetheless, it does look like they're not really catering to established gamers anymore.

Popsical
06-04-2014, 08:44
See, i disagree with you there.
I feel GW are aiming more firmly at their established gamers now more than in a very long time. The cost of many of the new kits is too much for kids and newbies to invest if they may end up not liking the game. I know several gamers who are now so deeply entrenched in money spent on 40k that considering other options is almost like admitting theyve wasted money and far too often at that.
There are lots of folk who just cant buy anything but GW products as well.

williamsond
14-04-2014, 10:10
I played my first game against my first full knight list this weekend and i can honestly say it was bar none the worst game of 40k i've played in 26 years, The miss match between my standard marines with no flyers and the horrendous superheavy walkers ment i spent the whole game just removing unit after unit with little input to the actual game, It was formost just very boring and for the opponet took no tactical acumen just walk forwadr 12 shhot delete one unit then shoot stubber at second assault that one and delete that too. For me just showed why these units have a place and its not 40k on a 6x4 board, its epic.

Cheeslord
14-04-2014, 10:41
I played my first game against my first full knight list this weekend and i can honestly say it was bar none the worst game of 40k i've played in 26 years, The miss match between my standard marines with no flyers and the horrendous superheavy walkers ment i spent the whole game just removing unit after unit with little input to the actual game, It was formost just very boring and for the opponet took no tactical acumen just walk forwadr 12 shhot delete one unit then shoot stubber at second assault that one and delete that too. For me just showed why these units have a place and its not 40k on a 6x4 board, its epic.

So... you know your duty now, right? You must buy a large quantity of flyers or knights to counter such lists (unless you already have such models but didn't happen to bring them on that day in which case I apologise).

Mark.

Evilhomer
14-04-2014, 11:12
I played my first game against my first full knight list this weekend and i can honestly say it was bar none the worst game of 40k i've played in 26 years, The miss match between my standard marines with no flyers and the horrendous superheavy walkers ment i spent the whole game just removing unit after unit with little input to the actual game, It was formost just very boring and for the opponet took no tactical acumen just walk forwadr 12 shhot delete one unit then shoot stubber at second assault that one and delete that too. For me just showed why these units have a place and its not 40k on a 6x4 board, its epic.

That sounds...entertaining.

After getting back into 40k, I'm in the process of organising a 6 player apocalypse game, but after flicking through the apocalypse book, I'm getting less and less enthusiastic about it. All I can see in all the photo's is two armies, with models shoulder-to-shoulder, waiting to be removed by large templates. No real manoeuvre, no tactics, just loads of models on a board, waiting to be removed. It doesn't help that whenever I see a flyer/titan on a 40k board I think it looks inherently retarded.

Interestingly, a mate we introduced to wargaming is infuriated by 40k; but he was interested in my epic stuff gathering dust in my cabinet. After a few games, hes hooked, so whenever he's round now, he prefers to play epic, rather than 40k. All I have to do now, is convince the other guys of epic's merits. The main barrier however, is that epic is only available second hand these days, and ruthless ebayers have cornered the market, making entry into the game quite expensive...

The Emperor
14-04-2014, 13:48
All I can see in all the photo's is two armies, with models shoulder-to-shoulder, waiting to be removed by large templates. No real manoeuvre, no tactics, just loads of models on a board, waiting to be removed.

That's precisely what I took away from a 7000 point Apocalypse battle report I saw on YouTube the other day, how cramped everything was. And that's after using a table 10' long (which, while making a little more room, created more problems as it ensured that some infantry units would never get anywhere or accomplish anything).

What stuck out at me the most was when five Leman Russ tanks went rolling down a road. Things were so cramped that they had to be right up against each other. They were so close together that a single Large Blast from a Revenant Titan caught all five, and since it was a Str D weapon, it blew them all up on a 2+. We're talking about 1,000 points of Leman Russ tanks blown up in a single shot because they couldn't put any space between each other. It was horrendous.

MusingWarboss
14-04-2014, 19:36
That's precisely what I took away from a 7000 point Apocalypse battle report I saw on YouTube the other day, how cramped everything was. And that's after using a table 10' long (which, while making a little more room, created more problems as it ensured that some infantry units would never get anywhere or accomplish anything).

What stuck out at me the most was when five Leman Russ tanks went rolling down a road. Things were so cramped that they had to be right up against each other. They were so close together that a single Large Blast from a Revenant Titan caught all five, and since it was a Str D weapon, it blew them all up on a 2+. We're talking about 1,000 points of Leman Russ tanks blown up in a single shot because they couldn't put any space between each other. It was horrendous.

Y'see that's the sort of thing I was alluding to way back on page 6 with my comments:


The bigger the battles the more space needed at 28mm. If you're playing on a sports field it'd be a truly impressive battle but you can get the same sense from using a smaller scale, whether it be 15, 10 or 6mm. It'd also fit into your existing gaming space better. ... Heck, even GW in its Apoc WD used the word Epic to describe the battles. It had less infantry and tanks and titans in the game than I used back in 92-ish on my 4'x3' table!

But yeah, 28mm is cool in a modelling perspective but as a one size fits all gaming scale, not so good. 28mm Man-O-War may look cool but the space required would be huge!!

The big problem with 28mm gaming is always going to be space and as an awful lot of people struggle to get a 6'x4' board setup going (permanently or packable - how many really have the space to leave it out unless they're lucky enough to have a whole room they can dedicate to it) asking them to rig a 12'x6' is really pushing it!! Plus that's three RoBB sets if they're determined to go down the full GW insanity scale.

Apocalypse really seems like a club game, where you can use a hall or sports centre or something to setup. In contrast Epic can be played just fine with your standard setup or even smaller of needed at home or anywhere else.

In regard to the troops not being able to traverse the length of longer boards and tanks sponson-hugging their way across a board... Well, that's a restriction of using 40k rules in that situation. Apoc needs to be its own game, not 40k on steroids. At which point it may as well not be in 28mm either.

I'm still under the impression that Apocalype isn't a big seller though, despite GW wanting to push everyone in that direction and that's most likely due to the high cost associated with it and space requirements. I don't have any conclusive proof just mumblings I've heard, thought I thought Escalation was a pretty big hint that the big kits weren't selling in any way near enough quantities so they wanted a means of pushing them to regular 40k players. A new epic would possibly fare better in both those regards but somehow I think there's been an indoctrination of newer players in the post epic days (after it was shoved off to Specialist territory) so that people honestly believe 28mm is the best size for models for everything. It's not. Scale is determined by practicality so that the game can flow. Inquisitor at 54mm was fine, but a lot of people resisted because it wasn't "28mm". Likewise you do hear a lot of moaning still about the 6mm of old epic.

I guess we can't please everyone but by sticking with 28mm GW has created an ideal for intermixability of parts that they and gamers/modellers are now reluctant to part from. Thus all games must now be 28mm.

How about we just let the games be themselves, and live on their own merits? Rather than as being "part of" or "mixable with" the playing pieces of other games? Is that really so bad??

Geep
15-04-2014, 01:46
I really like Epic (E:A), and understand and agree with the problems of space for making an actually decent Apocalypse game, but the whining about 'not 28mm' does have some justification.

One of the largest space-wasters in this hobby is not the little soldiers, but the board they fight over- full of tall buildings, forests, hills and all sorts of other oddly-shaped, pointy and sometimes flimsy terrain. Stacking that stuff in a way that doesn't see it self destruct can be hard. When you switch scale you also often need to switch terrain- you'd need a whole new set of forests (non-citadel ones), ruins (non-citadel) and other things. Only hills are really scale-less. The RoB board is also bad for 6mm, if you keep the skull pits. To play with 40k scale terrain just looks ridiculous, and visual appeal is a large part of these games.

I think this was one of the main problems with Inquisitor as well- not only do you need to make 54mm terrain, but terrain of that scale quickly gets massive.

MusingWarboss
15-04-2014, 02:41
I get what you're saying Geep but I don't buy it. Why? Well, you face that issue if you collect 40k and Fantasy Battle! You've gotta store all that different scenery somewhere!! Pop back to page 6 of this thread and look at some of the photos posted there, most of the scenery of the time was tiny - it'd take up hardly any space to store and you really didn't need much of it - you really didn't need much of a table either and could play on a 4'x4' easily.

With the Inq 54, I was under the impression you didn't really need much scenery at all and that there were some duel-kits that were designed by GW to be compatible with both 28/54mm. Was it the cities of death style stuff? Can't remember now.

Let's face it though, whenever you swap to a game which has a different visual style you're gonna need appropriate scenery even if they're all 28mm. Bolt Action in the Grim Dark 41st Millennium anyone?? Warhammer at the OK Corral? It's possible but really it'd be better with more appropriate scenery surely. Which you've got to store.

TimLeeson
15-04-2014, 12:20
I love 40k for it's models/painting, but I loathe the game. I love the Epic Game, especially in it's Titan Legions/Space Marine incarnation and would definitely love to see it back. Doubt it will ever come back though and I'm not sure I could stomach a limited edition style like space hulk/dreadfleet :/

Killgore
15-04-2014, 15:51
Played a 8000 point a side Tau vs Ork Apocalypse game at the weekend.

Every model on both sides was painted, used a 12x6 countryside style board with a big river, trees, hedges etc and unmodified rules from the current Apocalypse book.

It was a great example of how an apocalypse game could be played, everyone knew the rules, the table was a good size for the points with units not bunched up, the game looked great with the painted models and superheavies were not overpowering with only two Stompers and one Railgun Tigershark.

This was all possible thanks to two months of planning on a facebook group at a local store.


Put the planning in, with like minded gamers and you can have a great time.

Tau won btw, 8-7 on strategic points, Orks nearly had it with a late game surge.

The Emperor
15-04-2014, 16:09
Y'see that's the sort of thing I was alluding to way back on page 6 with my comments:

You're speaking to the choir, friend. :) A couple pages back I posted some shots of Epic games to show how different it is. How the scale allows for cinematic battles on expansive battlefields, as opposed to having all your units tripping over each other as they fight for legroom.


The RoB board is also bad for 6mm, if you keep the skull pits.

People actually keep those? I think they look stupid as hell, so when I paint my board I'm covering them with flock. Even if you kept them, though, you could easily put terrain pieces over them.


I get what you're saying Geep but I don't buy it. Why? Well, you face that issue if you collect 40k and Fantasy Battle!

Yep, except for woodland scenery, there's not a whole lot of overlap. Most of my terrain is 40k specific and could never work for Fantasy, so I'm going to have to get a bunch more terrain for Fantasy games.

Pssyche
15-04-2014, 16:36
What stuck out at me the most was when five Leman Russ tanks went rolling down a road. Things were so cramped that they had to be right up against each other. They were so close together that a single Large Blast from a Revenant Titan caught all five, and since it was a Str D weapon, it blew them all up on a 2+. We're talking about 1,000 points of Leman Russ tanks blown up in a single shot because they couldn't put any space between each other. It was horrendous.

Sounds to me like somebody was cheating.
The Blast Markers that the Revenant Titan uses are 5".
I can't see how you can possibly hit FIVE Leman Russ tanks with a 5" Blast, even allowing for the fact it fires two Blasts per weapon.

If the Guard player was that stupid that he'd placed them interlocking like a jigsaw puzzle making this seemingly unlikely shot possible (and I'm not convinced you can), then he deserved to have his tanks blown up for being an idiot.

Ozendorph
15-04-2014, 18:40
I don't know about the "cheating" part (them's strong words, hombre), but I doubt the player with the Leman Russes is the reincarnation of Erwin Rommel. That just seems like exceedingly poor planning.

stroller
15-04-2014, 18:52
Coming late to the party... no... Epic can stay where it is. While I acknowledge that many believe it to be a superior game, for my money, far too small and fiddly. (Yes I HAVE played it and no I wasn't blown away by it).

Expansions I can take or leave. In these particular instances I've taken apocalypse and left escalation.

draccan
15-04-2014, 21:09
Played a 8000 point a side Tau vs Ork Apocalypse game at the weekend.

Every model on both sides was painted, used a 12x6 countryside style board with a big river, trees, hedges etc and unmodified rules from the current Apocalypse book.

It was a great example of how an apocalypse game could be played, everyone knew the rules, the table was a good size for the points with units not bunched up, the game looked great with the painted models and superheavies were not overpowering with only two Stompers and one Railgun Tigershark.

This was all possible thanks to two months of planning on a facebook group at a local store.


Put the planning in, with like minded gamers and you can have a great time.

Tau won btw, 8-7 on strategic points, Orks nearly had it with a late game surge.

Any pics of that battle? Would love to see it!

DoctorTom
15-04-2014, 21:40
No they wont bring back epic.

Yes they will keep apoc.

No they wont dump escalation, if anything they will continue to push the envelope.


Codex: Ork Gargants

Killgore
16-04-2014, 18:21
Any pics of that battle? Would love to see it!

Sure

191616

A couple of views of deployment, the river counted as difficult terrain and dangerous for Infantry, but provided good cover saves. Tau jet packs could fly over with no penalty but gain no cover


191617

Tau turn one Deep Strike after Orks had first turn, I really like the reserve rules.

191615

Destruction of a Stomper thanks to Tau airpower

191618

Not much left at the end, Orks mopped up but lost the game due to missing out on early Objective points.

draccan
16-04-2014, 21:27
That's a great looking table and models. Thanks for sharing mate!

Gabus
17-04-2014, 22:58
Its horses for courses but I prefer 28mm scale to 6mm. I have easily 6 epic armies (they were really cheap to collect once upon a time) but I cant really get into the narrative of epic like I can 40k. Nevermind the fact that we found a couple broken loopholes in epic armageddon, and got stuck in a loop where it was the same game over and over.

That said, the frustrating thing about apoc is that it takes so long to play. As a married man with small children and responsibilities, it is difficult to find time to play at that scale. I have often wondered if you couldnt play epic rules at 40k scale. Anyone tried it?

Darnok
19-04-2014, 11:08
I have often wondered if you couldnt play epic rules at 40k scale. Anyone tried it?

I think you can use the Epic rules just fine, as long as you change all ranges and movement stats from centimetres to inches. Technically, that puts everything into the right dimensions for 28mm - and cuts everything in half (to stay 100% correct, you'd have to double the inch numbers, i.e. 2cm would become 4''... which would make the following even worse).

BUT...

191704

This is how an Epic battlefield looks like. Just imagine what table size you would need when you "true-scale" everything up for 28mm. The table from Kilgores Apoc battle (btw, cool stuff, a good example of Apoc done right in my opinion :yes:) would be suitable for very small Epic games.

So while it can surely be done, you either have to tinker a good bit with ranges, or play on HUGE tables. The latter being unpractical on the edge of impossible.

The Emperor
19-04-2014, 13:40
Yep. Good luck ever recreating a battlefield like this for 40k to the proper scale.

191708

That Dropzone Commander game looks pretty neat, though. I may just have to check it out someday.