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boli
02-04-2014, 13:15
190625

Am I just being a sore looser here but is the above possible? (NB: I never questioned it at the time and allowed it as it was my mate's first game with his new Beastmen but I've been wondering if this was actually "off"

1. I charged a Gor Horde with Additional Hand Weapons with my 20 Swordmasters and won combat
2. I reformed to the second image to maximise attacks
3. he rolled and reformed to the 3rd image; this allowed in his turn a chariot to charge which was behind his horde.

I know you can do some "shunting" with combat reforms e.g. don't need to use the centre point if you are reforming to bring more models to the attack, but how flexible are these combat reform rules (its very vague in the book).

Should he only have been allowed to shunt across until he had the maximum number of models in combat as possible; or was he allowed this full reorientation of the unit?

furrie
02-04-2014, 13:38
As long as the same ammount or more models of the stay in combat, its okay. So yeah he is allowed to reform like this. He could even move a bit more to the right if he wanted to.

badguyshaveallthefun
02-04-2014, 14:07
Just a couple things that I've noticed:

Unless your opponent (or you) had another unit blocking the frontage, that initial charge was illegal as you didn't have the maximum number of models from both sides fighting, you can't charge into a unit and go corner to corner. Your charge should have ended up looking like the way image 3 looks.

As long as the maximum number of models are fighting, your combat reform "shunts" can take any form, the only stipulation really is that the same number of models, or more models are fighting each other at the end of it.

boli
02-04-2014, 15:51
The initial charge was like that as I charged past a unit of fleeing silver-helms and it *just* made it into contact; which is why I reformed as soon as possible.

theunwantedbeing
02-04-2014, 16:30
The initial charge was like that as I charged past a unit of fleeing silver-helms and it *just* made it into contact; which is why I reformed as soon as possible.

Even that doesn't sound right.
Charge distance is only relevant from the closest two points, the unit can move far further than they rolled in moving into contact.

The only things that prevent maximising are
-impassable terrain in the way
-other models in the way on either side that aren't involved in the combat
-starting so close to the enemy that it's not possible to manoeuvre

His reform was perfectly legal though.
Had you not reformed to face him, he could have slid the entire unit over from corner contact on the left side, to corner contact on the right side.

Liquidedust
02-04-2014, 16:41
Even that doesn't sound right.
Charge distance is only relevant from the closest two points, the unit can move far further than they rolled in moving into contact.

The charge must still be physically possible to do though, you after all only get one wheel during a charge not unlimited ones, even though distance becomes irrevelevant. So extreme clipping can sometimes occur due to interfering terrain and models.

boli
02-04-2014, 17:45
I caught on a clip and the only way to maximise the models in contact was to swing into the flank, but since that wasn't possible it ended up like that.

Treg Almighty
03-04-2014, 00:02
I may be wrong here but I recall that in the rules for a combat reform, the center of the unit must remain in the same spot. So in your reform you can only shift 2 models(columns that is) to the left and not shunt the entire unit until it maximises

As far as I can tell his reform would then be legal as long as the center point of the unit doesn't move. I can find reference when I get home

badguyshaveallthefun
03-04-2014, 00:07
I believe that was addressed in an FAQ, they now allow you to "shuffle" sideways during a combat reform

Kain187
03-04-2014, 00:25
The reform was correct but there is no way the charge was legal from how your describing. If there is no room for the chariot to come in on the front when its a frontal charge then its a failed charge. The charging unit does not simply align to the flank.

Treg Almighty
03-04-2014, 05:35
Every FAQing time I think I know something

"A combat reform is essentially a standard reform (page 14), save for the fact that the centre point of the reformed unit does not have to stay in the same place"

boli
03-04-2014, 09:35
The reform was correct but there is no way the charge was legal from how your describing. If there is no room for the chariot to come in on the front when its a frontal charge then its a failed charge. The charging unit does not simply align to the flank.

which is why it was only a clip charge initially - what is missing from the original picture is the fleeing silverhelm unit which blocked most of the unit charge

HurrDurr
04-04-2014, 00:11
The chariot may have had a flank charge but was blocked by the Gors. The swordsman charge seemed legal based on his description, there's a lot of confusion about what "as many models as possible" means. When you make contact with the enemy unit you do so that when you close the door as many models as "possible" get into combat.This means if the only place you could even make contact was a corner, you have brought as many models "as possible" into contact, bringing more would mean ignoring the single wheel rule as you maneuver to get more models into base-to-base contact.

T10
04-04-2014, 08:25
I believe that was addressed in an FAQ, they now allow you to "shuffle" sideways during a combat reform

The FAQ was necessary for making Combat Reforms work at all. Any situation where you maintain the center of the unit and change its number of ranks or files will cause the unit's boundaries to change.

Let's say you have an enemy to the front: Increase the number of files? The unit's front shrinks back from the enemy. Increase the number of ranks? The unit's front expands into the enemy unit.

The FAQ removed the requirement to maintain the center of the unit. However, this means that the unit can effectively "slide" up to twice the Movement of its models.


I caught on a clip and the only way to maximise the models in contact was to swing into the flank, but since that wasn't possible it ended up like that.

Guys, when a poster says "This is the situation, what to do now?", the most helpful thing to do is to answer the "what to do" part. It is usually less helpful to the OP to focus on how the situation came to be in the first place, unless of course there are details missing in the description that may have a bearing on the "what to do" part. Remember, you score more internet-points for answering the questions, and less for confusing the issue.

Wilhelm das Blutige
04-04-2014, 12:01
A most pragmatic response from T10. Kudos.

Such situations where units only clip at a corner despite all attempts to maximise using wheeling can and do occur, especially when there is terrain or other units partially in the way.

To answer the question though, the matter of both sides reforming is answered on p55 of the BRB under Unusual Situations. Once all Leadership test have been made for reforming, those that can reform dice off to see who reforms first. Personally, I think the advantage should go to the side that won the combat, allowing them the choice of reforming before or after the opponent (reforming after the opponent would usually give advantage), but rules are rules so I'd play it with the dice off.

dms505
04-04-2014, 12:28
Ahh! Who remembers the old rules for the wrap around? That was soo overpowered for some armies cough (WoC) cough.