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Colonel Lexx
02-04-2014, 17:36
Right I'm not sure if this is in the right section or not but here goes, I'm build up my SM army up so that once this company is finished I can then start a second company under the same name but have a different Greek letter (my current company is Sigma) I'm aware that after the Horus Heresy the legions were condensed into smaller armies of a thousand I think.

Now this is where my idea hits a brick wall because there are 26 Greek letters for the alphabet and I plan to do one company for each letter Alpha through to Zeta but I do think this would make it a pre Horus Heresy army (minus the Primarch of course unless I come up with a clever way to explain why there is no Primarch for the chapter)

Anyone who could offer any explanation to this would be much appreciated.

BTJ
02-04-2014, 17:38
Why not use the letters as squad markings as opposed to company markings

Colonel Lexx
02-04-2014, 17:57
It makes more sense to have them a company markings rather than squad markings ... I plan to build a full strength SM army which would means I would need more than 26 letters

A.T.
02-04-2014, 18:09
Isn't it 24 letters ?

You could split out the sub-factions of the chapter, for instance:

Alpha - headquarters (chapter master and personal guard)
Beta - senior officers
Gamma - administration and support staff
Delta - 1st company
Epsilon through Mu - 8 regular companies
Nu - scouts
Xi - apothecarium
Omicron - secunded to the inquisition/deathwatch or other imperial governmental organisations
Pi - secunded to rogue traders or other civilian factions
Rho - Dedicated pilots
Sigma - Dedicated vehicle crew
Tau - techmarines, servitors
Upsilon - marines stationed elsewhere outside of the company structure (holding outposts, etc)
Phi - the honoured dead
Chi - irregulars (death company, penitent marines, condemned marines, etc)
Psi - librarians
Omega - chaplains

The Emperor
02-04-2014, 18:15
Nu(bes) - scouts

I like this one. :p

Inquisitor Engel
02-04-2014, 18:46
A couple of points:


24 Companies would cost you approximately USD $15,000, not counting paint, time, vehicles or any chapter leadership (Librarius, Apothecarion, Forge, Command, etc.) If indeed you have this much disposable income, please, consider donating some to a charity at some point. You'll feel better.
The conservative approximate points value of an entire standard Chapter (10 companies) is north of 36,000 points. There is almost zero opportunity for you field this.
Your "legion" (of which the Greek Letters would fit most snugly with the Alpha Legion) would come in around 90,000 points.
The act of a movement phase alone would take hours and that's before you roll any dice.
Transporting this would require a Ford Transit van.

Colonel Lexx
02-04-2014, 18:59
The last of those point you've made Engel are very good but I had no intention of trying to field all of the companies at the same time (well not unless it was a 1 vs 1 and I had all the time to do it ... sounds like it be an epic battle though) ... I stand corrected on the Greek letters thank you A.T. it is 24 not 26 but I do like the sound of how the sub chapters are named.

Inquisitor Engel
02-04-2014, 19:17
The last of those point you've made Engel are very good but I had no intention of trying to field all of the companies at the same time

This may just be my opinion, but if you're not going to, there's literally no point in what you're planning. It's a waste of your time, paint, and money.

Voss
02-04-2014, 19:25
Right I'm not sure if this is in the right section or not but here goes, I'm build up my SM army up so that once this company is finished I can then start a second company under the same name but have a different Greek letter (my current company is Sigma) I'm aware that after the Horus Heresy the legions were condensed into smaller armies of a thousand I think.

Now this is where my idea hits a brick wall because there are 26 Greek letters for the alphabet and I plan to do one company for each letter Alpha through to Zeta but I do think this would make it a pre Horus Heresy army (minus the Primarch of course unless I come up with a clever way to explain why there is no Primarch for the chapter)

Anyone who could offer any explanation to this would be much appreciated.

The brick wall you seem to be hitting is simple fact. There are a limited number of greek letters, and more companies in a 30K Legion. But if I remember correctly, Chapters existed during the Heresy- they were small hierarchal unit within the Legion (much like Brigade/Battalion/Company = Legion/Chapter/Company). So you can be... relatively sane... and just do a 30K Chapter as part of a greater Legion, and not worry about the other 49,000? 99,000? models you aren't going to paint anyway.

Colonel Lexx
02-04-2014, 20:42
I know this seems a little over the top in comparison to other large scale armies that people have done but I have plenty of time to build and paint the size of an army .... I spray my models silver after base coating them any way (it's easier than painting them that seeing as that is the primary colour they are then add the other addition colours and wash after) so the only thing that going to change is the additional colours like the jump backs on a tactical squad and the Greek letter on their shoulder pad and standard.

Voss
02-04-2014, 20:49
Ok. So you'll have ~50,000 marine models spray painted silver with Greek letters that you won't use. I'm still not seeing a reason to not stop at 1000, or 500 or even 100.

Colonel Lexx
02-04-2014, 20:58
As I said I don't intend to play every single company at the same time but would try to use each company with different battles that I faced

AndrewGPaul
02-04-2014, 21:08
The brick wall you seem to be hitting is simple fact. There are a limited number of greek letters, and more companies in a 30K Legion. But if I remember correctly, Chapters existed during the Heresy- they were small hierarchal unit within the Legion (much like Brigade/Battalion/Company = Legion/Chapter/Company). So you can be... relatively sane... and just do a 30K Chapter as part of a greater Legion, and not worry about the other 49,000? 99,000? models you aren't going to paint anyway.

I don't have the book handy, but HH1 has a basic TO&E for a Marine Legion, and it has the Battalion as a unit between the company and the chapter (a throwback to 1st edition Epic, I think).

Beppo1234
02-04-2014, 21:46
As I said I don't intend to play every single company at the same time but would try to use each company with different battles that I faced

I think the point he is trying to make is, if you are never going to use more than say 1000 marines at a time (at the most! Like anyone would ever need this much), you don't need to own the other 49000 just so you can be happy that you have a complete army. Just having it, to have it. There is no point... you might as well buy a gold brick and put it in your closet and never look at it. You and your wallet will probably be happier if you do this:

-buy 1 chapter worth of marines because you want a large collection (I can respect that).
-instead of buying and owning all the rest of the chapters, just repaint the company/chapter badge for the 1000 you already have, as to represent different parts of the chapter/legion in different battles that you fight. That way you can represent, without owing a zillion dollars worth of redundant poorly painted minis.

this way, the collection is planned to a manageable size, about 7 Double GW cases. And if you've got the drive, at least there is a hope that you will paint more than silver spray and unit markings... if that's all you're going to do I personally wouldn't bother. Huge armies are cool, but not so cool if every mini hasn't had love put into it. When the love has been put in, and the army is huge, then it really impresses. I find the opposite when the effort is sacrificed for size... I guess I'm getting at is: it's not the size the counts.

AndrewGPaul
02-04-2014, 21:54
Plenty of people collect for the pleasure of having the collection. It's not a "waste" if you never use a model in a game.

Sir Didymus
02-04-2014, 22:13
As a kid, I had a full company of of the original plastic beakie tactical squads. They never got fielded together more than once.

These days I aim for a more diverse collection ;)

Colonel Lexx
02-04-2014, 22:23
Thank you Andrewgpaul ... as He said I can collect and use them at the same time.

Colonel Lexx
02-04-2014, 22:23
heres what they look like

carldooley
02-04-2014, 22:28
don't overlook vehicle crews either. at least 2 for most vehicles, ones that you won't see but count towards your company's total. Does anyone know how much crew is in each STC vehicle? (what do you know, some background(fluff) knowledge is useful for a change.)

Inquisitor Engel
02-04-2014, 22:51
When you say "I have time," how long has the first 100 taken you?

When you say "I have the money," what other obligations do you foresee yourself having over the next 23x the above? School costs? Kids?

Colonel Lexx
02-04-2014, 23:36
when I say time and money I mean it's a working progress ... Yes it may not be completed over night or in a few months ... In fact I'd be surprised if I complete this in a lets say a couple years but each model will be painted (with a few alterations for each company of course) to best of my ability and be part of a larger collection

stroller
02-04-2014, 23:51
Pick whatever number you like: various sources suggest legion sizes of 1,000 in more recent "history" to between 10,000 and 250,000 for others.

Assuming that you have the money to do it, without having to starve any dependents in the process, do what you like and get the army size you want, painted the way you want it and fielded the way you want it (or not).

The Ford transit van should of course be resprayed in silver, with colour highlights, with alpha pn the bonnet, and omega across the rear doors.

Inquisitor Engel
02-04-2014, 23:54
The Ford transit van should of course be resprayed in silver, with colour highlights, with alpha pn the bonnet, and omega across the rear doors.

I can only respond with this: http://i.imgur.com/dhMeAzK.gif

To Colonel Lexx - I'm curious as to why you skirted answering any of my actual questions.

Colonel Lexx
02-04-2014, 23:58
I like the idea of that with the van ... I think i may have found a way to incorporate the Primarch of the legion with using one of the two missing Primarchs of legion II and XI ... seeing as both of these have been removed from all records and I can't find anything about them except speculation or possibilities with what happened to them so maybe this is a way round who leads them.

I did answer your question .... TIME - it's a working progress .... COST - I am buying as I go so yes it will be expensive i know but at the moment I have no dependants or kids and only buy more stuff after paying my bills and any other bits that need doing first ... So as I said working progress that will take a while to do

Tyrelli
03-04-2014, 00:15
40k is large so is the imperium .. I'm sure somewhere there is a space marine chapter that has "special dispensation" to be over the normal restrictions ... At the end of the day do what you want to do ... Enjoy the hobby :)

Surgency
03-04-2014, 00:19
When you say "I have time," how long has the first 100 taken you?

When you say "I have the money," what other obligations do you foresee yourself having over the next 23x the above? School costs? Kids?

And why would you care? It's his project, he's decided it's feasible to work on. It might not work for you but why would you question his decisions?

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

JPThunda
03-04-2014, 04:25
40k is large so is the imperium .. I'm sure somewhere there is a space marine chapter that has "special dispensation" to be over the normal restrictions ... At the end of the day do what you want to do ... Enjoy the hobby :)

Black Templars come to mind. But it's not so much 'special dispensation' as 'Yeah, we have legion-level combat strength(or more, and not to mention fleet strength), what are you going to do about it?'

The Emperor
03-04-2014, 08:58
Right I'm not sure if this is in the right section or not but here goes, I'm build up my SM army up so that once this company is finished I can then start a second company under the same name but have a different Greek letter (my current company is Sigma) I'm aware that after the Horus Heresy the legions were condensed into smaller armies of a thousand I think.

Now this is where my idea hits a brick wall because there are 26 Greek letters for the alphabet and I plan to do one company for each letter Alpha through to Zeta but I do think this would make it a pre Horus Heresy army (minus the Primarch of course unless I come up with a clever way to explain why there is no Primarch for the chapter)

Anyone who could offer any explanation to this would be much appreciated.

Just say your Space Marine Chapter isn't a Codex Chapter and you're done. In your background you may want to have them number near the standard strength of a Codex Chapter, but you can go over a little. So maybe have your Chapter strength at around 1,200 men and come up with some funky organizations to fit them in. For instance, maybe instead of being split up into 100-man companies, your Chapter is divided into platoons of about 50 men, except they have a different name for that formation (Iron Hands call their Companies "Clans", for instance, so there's no reason you'd have to call yours Platoons). 1,200 men divided by 50 gives you 24 formations to work with. Come up with numbers of what each formation has and go from there (I.E. Alpha could contain 50 Terminators, Beta could contain a mix of 50 Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans, Gamma could contain 30 Tactical Marines, 10 Assault Marines, and 10 Devastators, and so on).

T10
03-04-2014, 09:42
And why would you care? It's his project, he's decided it's feasible to work on. It might not work for you but why would you question his decisions?


He wants to know if Colonel Lexx is a crazy billionaire. :)

-T10

carldooley
03-04-2014, 12:22
He wants to know if Colonel Lexx is a crazy billionaire. :) -T10
if he is, he is welcome to send me the models and I'll assemble them for him (for a dollar per?). I'm not particularly good in the paint department, so he'd have to make a chain of craftsmen, but I discovered how easy it is to use magnets in vehicles, which is occasionally useful.

Beppo1234
03-04-2014, 13:44
And why would you care? It's his project, he's decided it's feasible to work on. It might not work for you but why would you question his decisions?

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

It's a question of being realistic in one's estimation. If he wants 26 companies, that's still 2600 individual space marines. It is a ludacris estimation, and goal, and he's talking about not finishing it in months... try decades. Plus, his painting standard is at the beginner level. Having a huge army that is painted like that is not impressive, IMO... the only thing that is achieved here is impressing me with his wallet.

What's the point of having a huge gigantic army, that is either unpainted, or painted like crap?

I think he should aim smaller, with a higher quality of effort into the building and painting stage. That way, if he does have the drive, money, and patience to finish 2600 marines, they'll atleast look good (I don't see the point otherwise, might as well just put naked plastic out there).


honestly, if this is all to do with the Greek letters, I think you should probably change the greek letters to squad designations, and make a company of 26 squads... and just fluff it out that your army has a different codex organization. Just say your chapter is organized into 4 companies of 250 guys. That way, you finish a company, you get all your greek letters in, you get your personalized fluffy army, and the collection is manageable and realistic in size... and also useable all at one time if you are a gamer. Its also of a size, that if your painting skills are low (which they are), that you can do basic paint jobs on them, then return to them later with newly acquired skills for upgrades (if you try and do something like that for more than 200 minis, you'll burn out before you get it done).

Mauler
03-04-2014, 15:53
Just say your Space Marine Chapter isn't a Codex Chapter and you're done. In your background you may want to have them number near the standard strength of a Codex Chapter, but you can go over a little. So maybe have your Chapter strength at around 1,200 men and come up with some funky organizations to fit them in. For instance, maybe instead of being split up into 100-man companies, your Chapter is divided into platoons of about 50 men, except they have a different name for that formation (Iron Hands call their Companies "Clans", for instance, so there's no reason you'd have to call yours Platoons). 1,200 men divided by 50 gives you 24 formations to work with. Come up with numbers of what each formation has and go from there (I.E. Alpha could contain 50 Terminators, Beta could contain a mix of 50 Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans, Gamma could contain 30 Tactical Marines, 10 Assault Marines, and 10 Devastators, and so on).

This. You don't have to field a codex chapter and, really, it seems impractical for you to bend your plan to fit. Instead bend the organisation to your plan: Space Wolves have 12 companies instead of 10 for example, so you can instead field 26 half-strength companies? Twenty can be equivalent to a Codex organisation with six left over for auxilliary companies as you see fit. It's your chapter, there's nothing stopping you from having 50 Marines to a company instead of 100 and you get the flexibility to use more Greek characters for designations.

Dr.Clock
03-04-2014, 17:07
Yeah... at a certain point, I know from my own perspective, painting 100 dudemens just to move on to another 100 that are largely identical except for the Greek Letter that I'm painting would be pretty crazy-making...

That being said, 24 'semi-companies' seems far more manageable, simply from the standpoint of keeping your momentum going.

In addition, 50 marines is pretty much a solid 'game of 40k'... especially if you include all vehicle crews. So you could quite easily build each company to be fielded in its entirety on the tabletop, using any one of the loyalist marine codices...

The more I think about it, the more I think this would be a really amazing thing to pull off... 24 distinct 40k forces, all comprising exactly 50 marines. You could even work in a kind of 'flow-through' where each company is directly 'complemented' by the ones on either 'side' of it...

It's worth noting that the strictest interpretation of the Codex Astartes demands no more than 1000 full brothers. Remember the scouts, though. If you do 24 'cohorts' of 50, you only need 200 scouts in there to have an even 1000 marines. That's a mere 8 scouts per cohort... considering one of the cohorts will pretty much BE a scout force (snipers, bolters, cc/shotguns, bikes, LS Storms) and you'd only really need an average of 6.5 scouts in each remaining company... a decent contingent of roughly 1.5 full squads in one out of every three cohorts. I really like the idea that scouts will start out in the smaller 'scout company', but move into other positions within the cohorts through attrition, and as their different skills become apparent.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Colonel Lexx
03-04-2014, 17:25
Just reading some of the comment here and I must say I feel a little ticked and would like to make a few points if I may (A massive thank you to those who have defended me here) Firstly as has been previously stated I intend to do this as part of a large collection from the 1st company to the 24th company Alpha to Omega (no matter what is said lets just get that straight) I am also aware that it will take me a long time to finish but it will be IMO worth the time and effort to do it ... Secondly I am also very much aware that shall cost a lot of money (and no I'm not a crazy billionaire no matter how much I wish I was) Lastly thank you Beppo for your criticism it has been duly noted and would like to say painting 2400 models like crap as you put it is pushing it ... yes my painting is not brilliant by any standard but that is the best I can paint for the time being I'm sure it will get better over time and would like to add I am sure it has taken many month/years for you to learn how to paint to a good standard

Charistoph
03-04-2014, 17:27
You could split out the sub-factions of the chapter, for instance:

Alpha - headquarters (chapter master and personal guard)
Beta - senior officers
Gamma - administration and support staff
Delta - 1st company
Epsilon through Mu - 8 regular companies
Nu - scouts
Xi - apothecarium
Omicron - secunded to the inquisition/deathwatch or other imperial governmental organisations
Pi - secunded to rogue traders or other civilian factions
Rho - Dedicated pilots
Sigma - Dedicated vehicle crew
Tau - techmarines, servitors
Upsilon - marines stationed elsewhere outside of the company structure (holding outposts, etc)
Phi - the honoured dead
Chi - irregulars (death company, penitent marines, condemned marines, etc)
Psi - librarians
Omega - chaplains

Just say your Space Marine Chapter isn't a Codex Chapter and you're done. In your background you may want to have them number near the standard strength of a Codex Chapter, but you can go over a little. So maybe have your Chapter strength at around 1,200 men and come up with some funky organizations to fit them in. For instance, maybe instead of being split up into 100-man companies, your Chapter is divided into platoons of about 50 men, except they have a different name for that formation (Iron Hands call their Companies "Clans", for instance, so there's no reason you'd have to call yours Platoons). 1,200 men divided by 50 gives you 24 formations to work with. Come up with numbers of what each formation has and go from there (I.E. Alpha could contain 50 Terminators, Beta could contain a mix of 50 Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans, Gamma could contain 30 Tactical Marines, 10 Assault Marines, and 10 Devastators, and so on).

These two are the best suggestions to keep things more manageable.

Heck, for one DIY Chapter that I've had running around in my head for years (that I haven't started yet), they have an inordinately high number of Scouts in comparison to Battle Brothers and Veterans. So the actual number of full Space Marines in the Chapter's companies are quite low. This leads to them having more companies deployed and operating on a totally different level, either more in Kill Team situations or as Honey Birds to other chapters. Not that this has anything to do with the OP's desires, but it might help direct him to a solution to his liking.



It's worth noting that the strictest interpretation of the Codex Astartes demands no more than 1000 full brothers. Remember the scouts, though. If you do 24 'cohorts' of 50, you only need 200 scouts in there to have an even 1000 marines. That's a mere 8 scouts per cohort... considering one of the cohorts will pretty much BE a scout force (snipers, bolters, cc/shotguns, bikes, LS Storms) and you'd only really need an average of 6.5 scouts in each remaining company... a decent contingent of roughly 1.5 full squads in one out of every three cohorts. I really like the idea that scouts will start out in the smaller 'scout company', but move into other positions within the cohorts through attrition, and as their different skills become apparent.

It's worth noting that the 1000 Battle Brothers per Chapter is misrepresentative. That number usually doesn't include the Techmarines and Brothers in the motor pool, the Scouts, members of the Librarium or Reclusiam, or Command staff.

Inquisitor Engel
03-04-2014, 18:09
It's a question of being realistic in one's estimation.

Bingo. Right now this smacks of a kid being a bit cavalier about spending his Christmas and Birthday money, or perhaps spending all of ones money from a first job.


Just reading some of the comment here and I must say I feel a little ticked

You asked for advice. Some of us are trying to determine if you're even sane. You've avoided answering direct questions and haven't given anyone who disagrees with you or has actually offered constructive ideas any creedence whatsoever. Disagreeing with people when asking for advice is a great sign to not get very positive replies.

Primarily, I want to see that we as a community aren't just encouraging you on, and setting you up for failure. In my, and others', opinion, what you're talking about is unrealistic for anyone but a trust-fund kid with no job.


Firstly as has been previously stated I intend to do this as part of a large collection from the 1st company to the 24th company Alpha to Omega (no matter what is said lets just get that straight) I am also aware that it will take me a long time to finish but it will be IMO worth the time and effort to do it ...

Firstly, it seems like you're more set on "Alpha-Omega" theme than having any real plan of painting that many models and just want an excuse to do so. We've given you several alternatives, but you've dismissed them all with a childish "But I don't wanna."

I may have missed it, but you haven't told us how long it took you to do your first company of 100 models. Multiply however long that is by 23 to get your remainder. Remember that as your skills improve, each model will take more time. When I started, a marine took me a single man-hour, if that. Now they take me 4-5 depending on the level of detail I want.


Secondly I am also very much aware that shall cost a lot of money (and no I'm not a crazy billionaire no matter how much I wish I was)

If you bought it all today, you're looking at $15-20,000. If you have that much money lying around, for the love of God don't spend it on toy soldiers. Invest it, donate it to charity, set it aside for when you're down on your luck and don't have that much money sitting there. If you're not buying it all at once, you could potentially be looking at double, given price rises and inflation over time.

I know it's none of my business, but this is something that's been gnawing at me - How old are you, and how are you planning on funding this? (Both in terms of money and time)


Lastly thank you Beppo for your criticism it has been duly noted and would like to say painting 2400 models like crap as you put it is pushing it ... yes my painting is not brilliant by any standard but that is the best I can paint for the time being I'm sure it will get better over time and would like to add I am sure it has taken many month/years for you to learn how to paint to a good standard

First, there's no accounting for talent. Some people are just better painters than others. Patience is something a project like this could teach you, but there's nothing worse than having your last model look AMAZING and your first not really match because you've gotten that much better. Seeing how much you've improved over the course of a 100-person army is one thing, 2-3 being meh and some being "okay" and some being great, so things flow fairly well, but imagine having 100+ models just sucking when you're done.



It's worth noting that the 1000 Battle Brothers per Chapter is misrepresentative. That number usually doesn't include the Techmarines and Brothers in the motor pool, the Scouts, members of the Librarium or Reclusiam, or Command staff.

IIRC it comes to just shy of 1400 all said and done. I could be wrong there.

Dr.Clock
03-04-2014, 18:58
Yes... I'm aware that the 'true numbers' are customarily fudged to allow for the an extra 5-15 'extra' marines per company.

Making that an average 'true size' of 110 for a company at full strength, and 1200 all-in, including scouts, is right on the money, I'd say.

This of course assumes that any chapter, ever, has been at 'full strength'. Growing marines takes time... keeping a company at anywhere near the full hundred for very long at all seems like it would pretty much never happen. I also maintain that 100 scouts will never be enough to keep a chapter at anything approaching its full complement. 200+ seems far more workable, considering that scouts themselves operate in active war zones, and very far from any other kind of support that could reduce attrition rates (lost a an arm on a recon mission? yup... you're more than likely dead).

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Colonel Lexx
03-04-2014, 19:50
The back story for the Knight of Skye has that taken care of ... My idea so far is that this the 2nd legion that is still lost to the emperor, the Primarch was never found (alive but not found) when the chapter is founded many years pass and during this time the Knights of Skye have built up a mythic reputation as they have no know planet of origin or star fortress as the only accounts of them are that they appear in times of great need and then leave once the outcome of the battle can be guaranteed so no one knows if they truly exist ... As for them being at full strength the numbers never really fall they act with such honour that no man is left behind, whole squads of men will fight to save one man rather than leave him wounded or dying on the battle field.

Dr.Clock
03-04-2014, 20:37
Soooo... why were they struck from all Imperial records?

It's strongly suggested in the Heresy novels that the 'lost' Primarchs/Legions did something VERY BAD. They were in fact found. But they were sullied, and they and their Legions destroyed, even in memory.

In my humble opinion, having a massive force of 2k+ marines who operate essentially as a Deus Ex Machina is a bit slapdash. 'They're mysterious' is not really a great rationalization for such a force. The very first place people run when they want to make something that's beyond the pale, even for marines, is 'they're one of the Lost Legions'. Frankly, no. Far be it from me to tell anyone how or why to collect toy soldiers, but I just don't find that story believable. In my opinion, the 'Lost Legion move' is the supreme handwavium of the 40k setting, and smacks entirely of wanting a Mary Sue chapter. If that's your bag, go for it, but don't expect much sympathy from us fluff-nazis.

The other problem you run into (if we're taking this seriously) is, if they are a Legion, why do they not number at least in the 10k+ range? 100k+? Why are they divided into companies of 100 at all? More than this, however, is the problem of resupply, refitting of starships, and most problematic of all, recruitment. After 10k years of waging war with no exterior resupply, and no base of operations, you can see how having anything at all left over is unlikely in the extreme, even given a full Legion strength to begin with. Heck - I'd find 24 individually assigned units of 10 as the shattered remains of a doomed chapter who no longer have a recruitment base to speak of to be far more compelling and believable.

Anyway, have fun out there. Clearly the sheer scale of the project is more important to you than having a solid fluff foundation, so have at it.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Inquisitor Engel
03-04-2014, 20:56
The back story for the Knight of Skye has that taken care of ...

I'm going to go ahead and disagree. Your background doesn't pass the sniff test and doesn't even come close to gelling with any established background.


My idea so far is that this the 2nd legion that is still lost to the emperor, the Primarch was never found (alive but not found)

It's been outright stated since at least 1995 (which may well be older than many of the people in this thread) that all of the Primarch, including II and XI were FOUND and SERVED during the Great Crusade. The Horus Heresy novels have made it clear that whatever they did to get stricken was very, very bad.


when the chapter is founded many years pass and during this time the Knights of Skye have built up a mythic reputation as they have no know planet of origin or star fortress as the only accounts of them are that they appear in times of great need and then leave once the outcome of the battle can be guaranteed so no one knows if they truly exist ...

And Guilliman and the High Lords would have let this slide why? All of the Primarchs were made well aware of all of their brothers. I doubt that during his reign as Regent of Terra and the forced adoption of the Codex Astartes, Guilliman would have let an entire legion exist simply because no one found their Primarch. It wouldn't happen.

Plus there's no way that even in the giant bureaucratic mess of the Imperium, a force of marines double the size of a standard chapter would go unnoticed.


As for them being at full strength the numbers never really fall they act with such honour that no man is left behind, whole squads of men will fight to save one man rather than leave him wounded or dying on the battle field.

That's.... the same as most Space Marine chapters? Stuff happens. Whole positions are overrun. What happens when your army gets hit by an orbital strike, a foot of gork, or several carnifexes? This is simply an untenable situation.


In my opinion, the 'Lost Legion move' is the supreme handwavium of the 40k setting, and smacks entirely of wanting a Mary Sue chapter. If that's your bag, go for it, but don't expect much sympathy from us fluff-nazis.

It's the worst of the worst, and screams "new player" and "no investment in the background or setting."

Also, we prefer the term "Background Enforcers." ;)


Anyway, have fun out there. Clearly the sheer scale of the project is more important to you than having a solid fluff foundation, so have at it.

Quoted for truth.

Colonel Lexx
03-04-2014, 21:38
I would like at this point to reiterate that the back concerning the Primarch was only an idea that I was playing around with so it wasn't set in stone so thank you for the input regarding this.

I have tried to answer your question Engel I've not deliberately set out to side step your questions but don't see how relevant asking how long it took me to build what I have already is ... except to say that it will take X amount of hours to do the others to me it's not relevant.
As for the cost (I'm more than aware that the price of the figures will in all likely hood go up) isn't an issue either I have no intention of going out and buying 5,000 of kit that going to collect dust until i get round to building and painting them.
I'm just trying to figure out why me want to create this is suddenly act of sheer madness or waste of time on my part.

T10
03-04-2014, 21:46
As far as I can tell, the whole intent behind the Lost Legions was to leave that part up to the players to develop on their own. Sure, the Horus Heresy books have sort of hemmed them in by establishing that these legions were "lost" even before the Heresy. However, that does not mean they have gone out of business, so to speak.

In WH40k, entire Space Marine chapters are forgotten all the time, worlds and sectors are swallowed up by warp storms, only to reappear millenia later. It is entirely in the spirit of the setting for a Space Marine Legion from the days of the Heresy to fall out of favour with the Emperor, embark on a quest of some sort, and return 10,000 years later to find a radically changed galaxy. A Legion carrying the spirit of the Great Crusades would conceivably realise the disruptive effect its return might have on the fragile state of affairs and quietly ally itself with planetary governors, forge worlds and rogue traders while establishing (or reclaiming) their homeworld.

And as for this breaking the fluff? Who cares. It's only there for inspiration anyways.


Mr Colonel Lexx, for what it's worth you have my blessing, and I encourage you to pursue your endeavor!

Inquisitor Engel
03-04-2014, 21:48
I would like at this point to reiterate that the back concerning the Primarch was only an idea that I was playing around with so it wasn't set in stone so thank you for the input regarding this.

Then why won't you even consider the realistic alternatives you've been presented with?

Colonel Lexx
03-04-2014, 21:59
Because they aren't what I'm wanting to do ... A chapter of 24 half strength companies isn't the what I had envisaged when I started this project ... It's nothing personal I have an exact idea in mind with what I would like to see at the end of this.

Inquisitor Engel
03-04-2014, 22:28
Because they aren't what I'm wanting to do ... A chapter of 24 half strength companies isn't the what I had envisaged when I started this project ... It's nothing personal I have an exact idea in mind with what I would like to see at the end of this.

Then why are you even asking for our input?

Colonel Lexx
03-04-2014, 22:45
In my original post I asked about If the 24 companies would make a Pre Horus Heresy chapter or a post Heresy chapter (if it was possible) if so then I was going to ask about the hierarchy that would be in place with the exception of a HQ squad and then Troops, Fast Attack, Elites, Heavies but an officers structure

Inquisitor Engel
03-04-2014, 23:07
In my original post I asked about If the 24 companies would make a Pre Horus Heresy chapter or a post Heresy chapter (if it was possible)

We gave you the answer.

It's too small for a Pre-Heresy Legion, and way too large for a post-Heresy Chapter.

You didn't like it and you began getting defensive and came up with non-sniff-test reasons for why this formation would exist in 40k.

Sgt John Keel
03-04-2014, 23:24
We gave you the answer.

It's too small for a Pre-Heresy Legion, and way too large for a post-Heresy Chapter.

You didn't like it and you began getting defensive and came up with non-sniff-test reasons for why this formation would exist in 40k.

Oh, Engel, I feel that perhaps both sides of the conversation are a bit quixotic, albeit in very different ways.

Gig
04-04-2014, 01:16
Just have the chapter be one which diverts from the codex slightly by having 24 under strength companies instead of full sized companies kind of like the opposite of the salamanders.

1000 divided by 24 = 41 which gives you 2 tactical squads, 1 assault squad and 1 devastator squad per company + a captain.

Wolf Lord Balrog
04-04-2014, 02:16
We gave you the answer.

It's too small for a Pre-Heresy Legion, and way too large for a post-Heresy Chapter.

You didn't like it and you began getting defensive and came up with non-sniff-test reasons for why this formation would exist in 40k.

Dude, Engel, lighten up. The guy obviously isn't looking for something that strictly passes your fluff-tests. I submit that your input is perhaps not going to be the most helpful to him. Or helpful at all perhaps.

ctsteel
04-04-2014, 02:25
I think it's agreed by all that this project would be incredibly ambitious at least - this hobby like any other can see life and reality get in the way; interests wax and wane, other hobbies come to the fore etc. So perhaps an option for you to grow this project in small increments without biting off more than you want to chew so to speak, is to plan your forces on paper/in your head but when you get to actually adding them in, maybe add one squad to Alpha, then one to Beta, then one to Gamma and so on through to Omega before wrapping around again.

This would allow you to have the skeleton of the full sized force which can expand at a rate you feel is appropriate, you can game with it early on in the process (just explain the various company squads represented as being a cross-chapter taskforce) and you can keep some interest up with having some small variations in the painting etc due to being squads from each company. And hey, if life steps in the way at some point and you do decide to down tools on it, you'll still have each company represented in some manner, and can decide if and when to pick up the project again in the future without having a room full of unfinished marines in the interim.

If this is a project you are committed to keeping on the go and chipping away at for many years as a steady collection and the main focus of your hobby, that's your thing and good luck to you. I think the concerns from fellow hobbyists raised here are where the intent seems to be to acquire a huge (by anyone's scale) bunch of models right up front that then sees your interest for the project drop off. I've got lots of boxes and models sitting unmade in my hobby room (life and interests/motivation, plus buying new shinies when I shouldn't ;) ) so I can see the view on both fronts.

omegoku
04-04-2014, 09:50
I have a full 3rd company assembled and painted with codex standard markings, etc.
I also have 20 scouts and about 20 terminators, some support units (Librarians, Chaplains, Techmarines, vehicles, veterans) painted to the same standard.
It took a long time, and boredom was setting in many times (52 bolter marines for a start) and it was a hard slog!
I have only used it once or twice at full size and I still have models from the past that are painted, but not up to standard (about 50 old school terminators, even more vehicles, bikes and centurions from other companies)

Painting the same scheme over and over is difficult work and can turn a labour of love into frustration.
I would aim to collect a company, then some support staff, then work on the next company if you feel you want to continue.
Or break it up with other armies (I have Imperial Guard, Tau and Tyranids as well)

I would also recommend making the second company different to the first, so mounted on bikes (6th?), Landspeeders (7th), verterans (1st) or whatever.

Good luck with assembling this collection

Colonel Lexx
04-04-2014, 11:20
Thankyou ctsteel for that ... I've always maintained that will be a working progress and that as i go I'll only ever buy a couple of models at a time, so as not to get to far ahead of myself.
The reason behind this project is simple ... I was coming up the the name for my custom chapter and tied the name and paint scheme in with the the Greek letter I have started with Sigma, (Knights of Skye ... the Roman name for the isle of skye in the UK was Sectis so sectis became the home world and Sigma became the emblem.)
After completing a few models someone ask me why start with Simga and not Alpha and from that point the direction of my chapter was set on it's final course The Sectis Knights Army

Beppo1234
06-04-2014, 14:14
Lastly thank you Beppo for your criticism it has been duly noted and would like to say painting 2400 models like crap as you put it is pushing it ... yes my painting is not brilliant by any standard but that is the best I can paint for the time being I'm sure it will get better over time and would like to add I am sure it has taken many month/years for you to learn how to paint to a good standard

the only way to learn, is to actually paint your models... not pass over them with spray paint, so that you can get the army out quickly.

I'm just saying be realistic, we all have wild dreams of seeing our entire faction in all its glory... but it's not really an attainable goal. But like I posted earlier, I think you would do better to aim at a non-codex large size company, consisting of 24 squads (one for each of your greek letters)... when you do this, you are not that far off the Space Wolf organization. That's 240 marines in your company, that's a large sized army by any standards, it gets all your greek letters in, gives you enough bodies to do E/FA/T/HS in whatever combination you want. It is also a manageable number, that can be finished within a reasonable amount of time.

honestly, the best approach here would be to make the greek letters represent squads, not companies.

again: impress me with the love you put into the army, not your wallet