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Camman1984
04-04-2014, 13:36
As the title? Have people warmed to flyer based armies and flyers enough that you could field a space marine airbourne assault force (for example) and not be considered 'that guy'.

I ask because a few of my friends are now collecting 2k knight forces and the logical counter is a list i wrote with 4 storm ravens and 5 storm talons (including the dataslate). Now i expect that knight spammers will just have to take it but would other people even be willing to face it?

Still Standing
04-04-2014, 14:07
So you want to write a list to hard counter your friends? How will that be fun for either of you?

Aryllon
04-04-2014, 14:13
Short answer: both parties would be 'that guy'.

Camman1984
04-04-2014, 14:19
One of them has basically thrown down the gauntlet as his army seems unbeatable currently, so yes, i am looking at a hard counter to it. I just wondered whether flyer spam was still hated as i wouldnt want to build an army just for him, if noone else would ever want to fight it i will just pass.

How many flyers does it have to be to be called spam?

Still Standing
04-04-2014, 14:22
The answer to Super Heavy vehicles, including Knights, is not Fliers. Fliers just wont do enough damage. The answer is Titans. :) My Warhound can drop 2 Knights a turn.

Camman1984
04-04-2014, 14:33
I know that, my revenant would do wonders on knights. This post is just checking current perception versus flyers now we are further into 6th.

Anyway his challenge is for any codex army to beat him, so want to avoid any escalation stuff.

Sir Didymus
04-04-2014, 15:21
Any spam army will label you as 'that guy'. Spam armies are notoriously boring to play against, so get yourself a proper well rounded army, and don't waste your time playing versus those flavor of the month spam armies :)

Pssyche
04-04-2014, 15:24
If you're looking at building up to an Apocalypse Army, then go with planes.
You'll always get to use them in Apocalypse.

Ssilmath
04-04-2014, 15:39
You may want to consider a bike heavy army with plenty of Grav and/or Meltaguns and some flier backup. It'll provide a more interesting game against the Knights, not be an autowin for either player and can still be taken against other people without being considered too cheesy.

Camman1984
04-04-2014, 15:46
Might have to scale it back then. How about 2 ravens and 2/3 talons? Still too spammy? Just gave myself 630-745 pts back for more flavour.

OuroborosTriumphant
04-04-2014, 15:57
As the title? Have people warmed to flyer based armies and flyers enough that you could field a space marine airbourne assault force (for example) and not be considered 'that guy'.

I ask because a few of my friends are now collecting 2k knight forces and the logical counter is a list i wrote with 4 storm ravens and 5 storm talons (including the dataslate). Now i expect that knight spammers will just have to take it but would other people even be willing to face it?

At least 1380 of your 2000 points are taken up by things that cannot be on the board during turn 1. More if you have any kind of upgrades or if anything is riding inside the Stormravens. Are you not fairly vulnerable to the Knights, with their high-Strength, low-AP, long range weapons simply eliminating you in an alpha strike and winning by wipeout?

Even setting that aside;

1. Don't run spam lists. Whether you win because you opponent can't deal with what you spam or you lose because whatever you spam can't deal with something your opponent has, either waythe game is decided by lists, not tactics and will not be any fun for anyone.

2. Don't list tailor. The game is more fun if every list is written to take all-comers, because that forces variety and two varied armies competing to leverage their strengths against their enemy's weaknesses and shield their own weaknesses from the enemy's strengths is a lot more fun than Knight spam effortlessly defeating Screamerstars, who effortlessly defeat conventional forces, who effortlessly defeat anti-air spam, who effortlessly defeat flier spam, who effortlessly defeat Knight spam.

On a final note, you don't need to go insane with fliers to cause serious problems for an army of nothing but Knights. Including say, 1 stormraven and 2 stormtalons will cause a pure Knight army quite a lot of misery without a) being so spammy that a sensible balanced army will have no fun playing it b) specializing your list so much that if meet an army with, say, a whole pile of Sabre Weapon Platforms you've lost before you started.

TLDR: All things in moderation.

EDIT: Cross-posted with you. 2 ravens and 2 talons would probably be fine.

Zombie P
04-04-2014, 16:22
Heh, I would be guard and run a marauder destroyer. That thing puts out enough anti air to own the skies in a single shooting phase (which can of course be targeted at ground based units). I am currently waiting for my mate to save up enough for a Thunderhawk so that we can go up to Nottingham together and pick up our air supremacy tools. He keeps telling me he will use it in 1500pt games, but I am fairly certain I wont see it until the apocalypse game I keep threatening to organise.

Anyway, on topic, 2 talons 2 ravens would be about acceptable at 2k. I would probably be tempted to run the formation so that you still have 2 HS slots. Also, a thing to note, if you paint your stormwing formation in ironhands colours, all those vehicles will have IWND ;).

ZP

Scammel
04-04-2014, 16:31
2. Don't list tailor. The game is more fun if every list is written to take all-comers, because that forces variety and two varied armies competing to leverage their strengths against their enemy's weaknesses and shield their own weaknesses from the enemy's strengths is a lot more fun than Knight spam effortlessly defeating Screamerstars, who effortlessly defeat conventional forces, who effortlessly defeat anti-air spam, who effortlessly defeat flier spam, who effortlessly defeat Knight spam.


List tailoring is perfectly fun in particular environments - if that's what he and his friends want to do then they should go do it.

gwarsh41
04-04-2014, 16:51
The answer to Super Heavy vehicles, including Knights, is not Fliers. Fliers just wont do enough damage. The answer is Titans. :) My Warhound can drop 2 Knights a turn.

in all fairness, your warhound can drop 2 of just about anything a turn. Turbolasers don't mess around.

DoctorTom
04-04-2014, 17:17
Have you considered using a Vortex Missile Strongpoint instead of all those flyers?

MaliGn
04-04-2014, 19:03
Lists should be tailored to the scenario not the opponent...

Camman1984
04-04-2014, 21:29
Mine will be raptors. Gone for 2 ravens and 2 talons so as to avoid spamming. The 1st turn stealth is fab to prevent the alpha until my reserves all come piling on.

Just for this particular opponent i might ally in a cheeky crimson hunter for extra anti-knight.

Hendarion
05-04-2014, 11:55
Short answer: both parties would be 'that guy'.
I go with this ^

carldooley
05-04-2014, 13:52
is you have access to stormravens, why not take a single drop pod full of melta sternguard?

Marshal
05-04-2014, 14:40
is you have access to stormravens, why not take a single drop pod full of melta sternguard?

The problem with Melta Sternguard is the knight shield and the short range on them. It's a lot of points for a suicide squad IF it kills one. Once the knight goes nuclear, you're squad is going to most likely die to it, and if it doesn't, the other knights will make sure it does.

That being said, I am also interested in this and was thinking of doing the same thing as there is a guy who is thinking of running 3 knights at a local 1700 tournament and I want to shut it down pretty badly if he manages to pull it off in time so I don't have to see things like that again and can go back to fun lists. The guy in our area tries to run stuff like that all the time as long as he's winning, the moment he gets shut down badly, he'll move on to a different list.

Camman1984
05-04-2014, 14:51
While i understand your intention of to not only win this fight, but win all future fights too, my intention is to give his knights a kicking but be left with a decent balanced army which is fun for both of us ;)


I tried the dual raven triple talon list yesterday and just found all the aircraft a pain to manage with their movement restrictions so dialing it right back to 1 raven and 2 talons. Air spam is just as annoying as it once was so not going down that route.

adreal
07-04-2014, 08:08
If the op is going with raptors, who get a free scout move, you can flood the table with enough Melta and grav that his shields won't stand up to it, add in melta Sternguard and he will be trouble with all those shots on turn one

T10
07-04-2014, 09:07
Player 1: "I have an all-Knight army. It is unbeatable."

Player 2: "I can build an all-airborne army. Your knights can only hit them with their heavy stubbers, I can hit your knights with lascannons."

In scientific methodology, an experiment with an expected result is still a valuable experiment because it reaffirms the theory behind it.

So. Are you guys scientists? :)

-T10

totgeboren
07-04-2014, 09:10
Making an all-Knight force is being 'That Guy'. The only counter to 'That Guy' is not playing him or becoming 'That Guy' yourself.

Azulthar
07-04-2014, 14:01
Nothing wrong with countering one extreme list with another. In most strategy games, that's part of the fun.

jeffersonian000
07-04-2014, 14:10
Not sure what everyone is worried about. In a tournament with timed games, the Knight player will win on turn 3 by quietly sitting on objectives as the Flyer player wastes the bulk of the game just dealing with all those flyers trying not to run into each other.

SJ


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Memnos
07-04-2014, 14:16
Yeah. Take out the non-flyer stuff.

Can Knights take objectives, though?

Memnos
07-04-2014, 14:17
Yeah. Take out the non-flyer stuff by firing at it with the Knight and the flyer army will be hard pressed to win..

Can Knights take objectives, though?

carldooley
07-04-2014, 14:58
Can Knights take objectives, though?

if there are 3, and they are the primary detachment, then . . . maybe.

Memnos
07-04-2014, 16:01
if there are 3, and they are the primary detachment, then . . . maybe.

Do they have some sort of rule that lets super-heavies take objectives? 'cause they don't count as troops or HQ. :D

DoctorTom
07-04-2014, 18:10
Do they have some sort of rule that lets super-heavies take objectives? 'cause they don't count as troops or HQ. :D

They have a special rule in their codex to count as scoring when taken as a primary detachment.

Camman1984
07-04-2014, 20:27
Player 1: "I have an all-Knight army. It is unbeatable."

Player 2: "I can build an all-airborne army. Your knights can only hit them with their heavy stubbers, I can hit your knights with lascannons."

In scientific methodology, an experiment with an expected result is still a valuable experiment because it reaffirms the theory behind it.

So. Are you guys scientists? :)

-T10

I am a scientist :)

If scientific study can be used as justification for my cheesy hard counter list then that works for me.

carldooley
08-04-2014, 01:35
you folks may want to brush up on warseer's forum rules. we can't actually post rules online, and he was fishing.

NerZuhl
08-04-2014, 05:25
Mistake number 1, admitting you would like to win.

Mistake number 2, wanting a themed army that isn't approved of.

Mistake number 3, building a legal army with out getting permission from your opponent

Mistake number 4, presenting all of the above to a board that abhors all of them.

Krucifus
08-04-2014, 09:23
If you can think of anything that could tarpit Knights well (and survive Stomps and Destroyer hits... I can't) then if you still have them in combat at the end of the game you win the objective.

Knights are Scoring units which is all well and dandy, but they aren't Denial units, so you are stopping him from scoring but he isn't stopping you...

Food for thought.

Treadhead_1st
08-04-2014, 14:05
If you can think of anything that could tarpit Knights well (and survive Stomps and Destroyer hits... I can't) then if you still have them in combat at the end of the game you win the objective.

Knights are Scoring units which is all well and dandy, but they aren't Denial units, so you are stopping him from scoring but he isn't stopping you...

Food for thought.

I was not sure that would work, but I just looked up the rules in the rulebook.

The Rulebook says that all units bar vehicles (and a few other caveats) are denial units (therefore Knights are not), and that in order to claim an objective you have to have a scoring model within 3" with no enemy denial units.

This does seem to mean you can stop a Knight scoring, as there is nothing in the FAQ about Scoring, but not denying, units (for example, for Big Guns Never Tire and The Scouring). It also appears that this was an intentional thing, as the paragraph before talking about Denial units specifically talks about scoring Heavy Support/Fast Attack in those missions (but at the same time does not mention vehicles from those selections).

So yeah, as long as you can get a scoring/denial unit within 3" of an objective held by a Knight, and not get killed somehow, you can win on objectives quite "easily".

jeffersonian000
08-04-2014, 14:21
An objective under a Knight is more than 3" form any unit not in CC with the Knight, due to the size of the Knight's base.

SJ


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T10
08-04-2014, 14:25
I am a scientist :)

If scientific study can be used as justification for my cheesy hard counter list then that works for me.

Seems legit.

-T10

Disposable Hero
08-04-2014, 17:37
You guy's sure don't mess around...

Marshal
09-04-2014, 01:35
An objective under a Knight is more than 3" form any unit not in CC with the Knight, due to the size of the Knight's base.

SJ


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I think you need to remeasure the knight's base... Even if the objective were on the smallest base available (25mm base, approx 1") and the knight were standing on top of it, there is 1.5" between the side of the base and the objective base. Being your 1" away from he base, you would have 0.5" to spare and be within your 3" of the objective...or you could charge the knight and get that also...

jeffersonian000
09-04-2014, 14:12
I think you need to re-read Objectives. Unlike everything else in 40k, Objective are not not measured base to base, Objectives have no base, and are a single point on the table indicated by a marker. This means that while we measure from a unit's base, we measure to the center of the Objective marker.

While it is common to use 40mm bases as Objective markers (I use the old metal Sisters of Battle Rhino side hatches for markers), the base is not the Objective.

As such, a Knight sitting centered over an Objective, plus the 1" an enemy unit must stay away except when in assault, is greater than 3".

SJ


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Thomson
09-04-2014, 16:45
Maybe wait for next guard codex (well astra militarum). Field 3 vanquishers on each flank, one squadron with pask, one with tank commander to be able to crossfire and hope you can get a facing unprotected by the 4++. Put Bulgryns before them for cover. get a few bodies to scatter them on the board to slow down their advance. May work and is at least a little interesting.

Marshal
10-04-2014, 01:59
I think you need to re-read Objectives. Unlike everything else in 40k, Objective are not not measured base to base, Objectives have no base, and are a single point on the table indicated by a marker. This means that while we measure from a unit's base, we measure to the center of the Objective marker.

While it is common to use 40mm bases as Objective markers (I use the old metal Sisters of Battle Rhino side hatches for markers), the base is not the Objective.

As such, a Knight sitting centered over an Objective, plus the 1" an enemy unit must stay away except when in assault, is greater than 3".

SJ


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Page 121: BRB: Place Objective Markers


Many of the Eternal War missions require the players to place objectives. An objective is usually a point on the battlefield of particular importance to one or both of the armies. These points are designated by using objective markers, coins or other counters around 1 to 2 inches in diameter....

Page 123: BRB: Controlling Objectives

You control an objective if there is at least one model from one of your scoring units, and no models from enemy denial units, within 3" of it. As different objectives vary in shape and size, it is important to agree at the beginning of the game exactly from where this distance will be measured.

I'm not seeing the pinhead point that you're describing... I see that objectives should be between 1 and 2 inches in diameter and that you should agree where exactly on that objective you are measuring to.

DoctorTom
10-04-2014, 18:17
I'm not seeing the pinhead point that you're describing... I see that objectives should be between 1 and 2 inches in diameter and that you should agree where exactly on that objective you are measuring to.

I see that you agree with your opponent beforehand on where exactly on that objective you measure to, so it's not necessarily to the edge of the base of the objective (if it's mounted on a base) either.