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EvanM
04-04-2014, 16:35
what to be used for, what unit size.... etc. I love the models and am thinking of a unit

Knifeparty
04-04-2014, 16:40
I use a unit of 11 with a noble who has the star lance, enchanted shield and other tricksters shard. They also have the banner of swiftness so they are movement 10.

The unit is like the ultimate scalpel. It hits when and where you want to with exacting precision.

The only thing is don't get charged and don't charge into prolonged combat. Once these guys lose momentum you need a lot of luck or magic to get them out

EvanM
04-04-2014, 16:42
Whats a good target to charge?

Knifeparty
04-04-2014, 17:26
Any target that you can kill in one round, or a unit that you know won't be steadfast or stubborn. You could also just use them as a flanking force for another unit like white lions or sword masters.

I won't lie, Dragon Princes aren't the best unit. They are a decent unit that works well when used correctly.

I don't run a conventional HE list though. I don't use frost phoenix's, white lions or silver helms.

I wouldn't really consider running Dragon Princes without some kind of magical support, thats why I use teclis. He can choose 8 spells from each lore during the list making process. I take wild form and mind razor so that they can strike at strength 6 or 9 if i need them to.

morganleah
04-04-2014, 17:34
I used 8 with Tyrion yesterday and they performed very well.. horde of maruaders (Tzeench) and 6 chaos ogres (Tzeench) and a helping hand with a large unit of warriors (35 also Tzeench). I must admit Tyrion did a fair bit of the heavy lifting (killed lord,hero) with my ogre bladed unit champion moping up any unit champions thrown my way. I always find if you hit units that are S3 and T3 you'll be ok even if its a massive unit!

boli
05-04-2014, 10:27
My biggest annoyance with the new book was dragon princes remained only S3, you pay a lot for that 6++ and +1 attack.

That said MSU units of 5 seem to work best, but its still a heafty price tag and there is little they can do that 5 Silver helms can do as well.

Although they performed great in the last game I used them... Assaulting a building of all things, lost lance bonus but the number of attacks really helped especially as I debuffed defenders with shadow

EvanM
08-04-2014, 22:54
I really love the models. they dont have to be that competetive but I'm mainly wondering whether i should run a unit of 5 or 10 in a 2000 pt army

Vulgarsty
09-04-2014, 21:13
My group are playing a series of games culminating in a massive multiplayer Dawn Attack. You can play each of the other 5 scenarios with an army solely derived from your contingent. As I have a noble with botwd and dp's with a flaming banner in my multiplayer list, i can use them in the watchtower scenario

10 dps (with flaming banner and champ with shrieking blade and enchanted shield) joined by a bsb with dragon armour, botwd, halberd and longbow, dismount, assault and hold. And this is not speculative, I know I can deploy this and I am 99% my opponents will be tricking out their assault unit with flaming banner aswell. Happy days.

Phoenix Blaze
20-04-2014, 15:22
I've been using them more and more and in bigger and bigger units. I've tried 14 with a mounted BSB and they're performed really well. 22 ASF Strength 5 attacks is a great shock attack, especially when its coming from so far away. I want to try running 17 with the noble in a 6x3 formation. Yes having more guys in the back ranks loses out on attacks you're paying extra for but charge, banner, BSB and at least one rank gives you a starting res of 4 provided your opponent doesn't pile attacks into the BSB.

They do work well in small 5 or 6 man unit though. Yes they're expensive chaff but they're amazing hunters with their speed, 2 attacks and the ASF to stop you whiffing those attack rolls. I never play without them these days.

SteveW
20-04-2014, 18:15
I like running 10 with the champ having an ogre blade and enchanted shield. He then becomes a cheap hero that if you pair it with life magic can never really stay dead and yields no points when killed.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
23-04-2014, 00:03
Dragon Prince deathstar with BotWD is a pretty mean sight as well. More mobile than the white lion variety, and more durable in protracted combat (though less hitty, of course). It's capabilities at points denial is incredibly frustrating.

CountUlrich
23-04-2014, 01:06
I dont know how people in good consicence play with BotWD, it wluld make me feel dirty as ****. I am actually probably going to add he army very soon, but I refuse to ever use that **** until it gets fixed

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SteveW
24-04-2014, 13:14
I dont know how people in good consicence play with BotWD, it wluld make me feel dirty as ****. I am actually probably going to add he army very soon, but I refuse to ever use that **** until it gets fixed

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I have only used the BotWD twice in my high elves and it did little to change the game. I think people(you) overplay it's effects.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
27-04-2014, 19:58
Did you put a wizard in the unit and 6-dice spells with impunity? Or put it on white lions who get a 3+ vs non-magical shooting? Or be utterly immune to most characters and the entire demon army?

The BOTWD is *********** bent.


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NemoSD
27-04-2014, 20:48
I have only used the BotWD twice in my high elves and it did little to change the game. I think people(you) overplay it's effects.

Most people who hate the BotWD fall into three groups:

Demon Players who have never played a High Elf army...

Everybody else who has never actually played a High Elf Army

People who took a sub-par list against a tuned comp list.

The reason I say this, is that most Comp lists are running Allarielle or a Loremaster. The Loremaster is unlikely to six dice anything... ever... and Allarielle spends half her time sitting on a throne anyways, meaning she is already virtually immune to miscast.

BotWD's worse incarnation is when used with a deathstar of White Lions. Not only is this an expensive blob, but it pays off against ONE army, just one. Meaning you only see it in newbie net lists, or dicks who tailor to crush their friend. Most High Elf players I do know who use it put it on smallish hunter units, to dissuade casters from targeting them. Dragon Princes, and 10-20 man groups of White Lions. High Elves have little options for dealing with big monsters. Bolt Throwers, DPs and White Lions are our best choices. So we need to make sure the expensive as **** melee stuff can get into range. BotWD helps us force the other person to make a hard choice.

The fact is, that unit can not carry the entire army. Even against a demon army, enough 1's will be rolled that the unit dies, or runs, and once it runs the banner aint a problem no more. The banners threat is over blown and exists in theory crafting only. Is it good? Yes. Would I rather have the OK Dragonhide banner? Yes.

SteveW
27-04-2014, 21:18
Did you put a wizard in the unit and 6-dice spells with impunity? I do that anyway.
Or put it on white lions who get a 3+ vs non-magical shooting? I did this, but seeing as how most players don't use very much shooting that allows saves and the spells that kill units don't allow saves it did little to nothing all game.
Or be utterly immune to most characters and the entire demon army? You might be playing the banner wrong. Or not at all from your misconception of it.


The BOTWD is *********** bent.


But not broken :P

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
28-04-2014, 18:07
You might be playing the banner wrong.

The banner gives a 2++ against wounds caused by spells or "magical attacks." Magical attacks includes wounds caused by any miscast result, wounds caused by every model in the demon army (army-wide special rule gives magic attacks), anything ethereal, terrorgheist or banshee screams, anything using a magical weapon (i.e. most characters), tomb kings catapults, WoC hellcannons, or dwarf warmachines with runes. All for a banner that is only 50 points, can be stuck on a unit standard, and won't go away unless the unit breaks or is slaughtered to the last man (well...second-to-last).


Most people who hate the BotWD fall into three groups:

[...]

The fact is, that unit can not carry the entire army. Even against a demon army, enough 1's will be rolled that the unit dies, or runs, and once it runs the banner aint a problem no more. The banners threat is over blown and exists in theory crafting only. Is it good? Yes. Would I rather have the OK Dragonhide banner? Yes.

Saying "the banner isn't broken because my friends and I don't abuse it" is not a fair argument. Think of it this way: would you ever bring an army to a tournament that DOESN'T include the banner? No, you probably wouldn't; it's just too good for the points.

And while no, that one deathstar isn't going to kill everything on its own, it *IS* invulnerable to all sorts of things and can effectively control the battlefield. Not to mention all the points it can hide from the enemy.

Also White Lions aren't the only unit that benefits from them. Put them on a unit of dragon princes with a few characters and a mage. Now your M9 swiftstride deathstar is immune to metal magic, terrorgheists, casket of souls, and dwarven cannons. Lovely. A guy I know runs a level 4 on high magic in this unit, and throws 5 dice at fiery convocation every magic phase. That means dispel scroll, all your dice, or sacrifice that unit or your next magic phase. And if he IFs, then only two of those results are even remotely threatening to him.


If the banner were 55 points, meaning that it could only be taken on a BSB, then I could be fine with it. As it stands it's too powerful.

SteveW
28-04-2014, 20:18
snipped for space..

Invulnerable = impossible to harm or damage.

Just so you know, they took invulnerability out of warhammer once 8th ed started.

Also You listed a bunch of ranged attacks that it works against without also mentioning that A) Nobody uses hell cannon, B) screams don't work well on elves anyway(ld 10 bubbles and all that), and C) Dwarfs and TK's are how common? I don't see many around here.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
28-04-2014, 21:01
Invulnerable = impossible to harm or damage.

Just so you know, they took invulnerability out of warhammer once 8th ed started.

Also You listed a bunch of ranged attacks that it works against without also mentioning that A) Nobody uses hell cannon, B) screams don't work well on elves anyway(ld 10 bubbles and all that), and C) Dwarfs and TK's are how common? I don't see many around here.

It takes 18 wounds to get 1 unsaved past 3+2++, or 36 past 2+2++ (dragon princes with the banner). Options that ignore armour saves are balanced by the fact that they cause fewer wounds to begin with. Good luck slipping those 18 spirit leech wounds past LD10 to snipe out the archmage. You'd expect a terrorgheist to be good against an armoured deathstar, but nope...LD10 2++. So while of course it's not objective "invulnerability," a very substantial chunk of the things that are good at killing elves (or armoured elves) are reduced in efficiency by 83% as the result of a single 50 point banner.

As for dwarfs, they have a shiny new army book and had 3 showings at my last GT. A guy in my club runs three runed-up grudgethrowers and a runed-up cannon. BotWD reduces the number of wounds from a direct grudgethrower hit by 89%. I also saw at least 3 WoC armies with hellcannons at the same tournament; not everyone brings demons, chimeras, and skullcrushers just to prove that the internet is right.

As for Tomb Kings...well there was only one player who brought them to that last tournament. And now that I've switched to VC, I suspect there won't be any. So I'll concede on that one.


My point in all of this isn't that the BotWD is game-breaking or auto-win; there are far too many factors at play for any single choice in WHFB to ever be that way. My point is that it's dramatically overpowered for its points cost, and compared to any other 50>= point magic banner in the game. There are 3 high elf players in my club, and numerous more at the tournaments I go to, and not a SINGLE one of them isn't running the banner.

SteveW
28-04-2014, 21:32
My point in all of this isn't that the BotWD is game-breaking or auto-win.
That was exactly what I thought you WERE saying it did. What we have here is a failure to communicate.

Also, your calculations to get wounds through are only for S3 attacks. Against my trebuchets it does literally nothing. :P

NemoSD
28-04-2014, 21:36
It takes 18 wounds to get 1 unsaved past 3+2++, or 36 past 2+2++ (dragon princes with the banner). Options that ignore armour saves are balanced by the fact that they cause fewer wounds to begin with. Good luck slipping those 18 spirit leech wounds past LD10 to snipe out the archmage. You'd expect a terrorgheist to be good against an armoured deathstar, but nope...LD10 2++. So while of course it's not objective "invulnerability," a very substantial chunk of the things that are good at killing elves (or armoured elves) are reduced in efficiency by 83% as the result of a single 50 point banner.

As for dwarfs, they have a shiny new army book and had 3 showings at my last GT. A guy in my club runs three runed-up grudgethrowers and a runed-up cannon. BotWD reduces the number of wounds from a direct grudgethrower hit by 89%. I also saw at least 3 WoC armies with hellcannons at the same tournament; not everyone brings demons, chimeras, and skullcrushers just to prove that the internet is right.

As for Tomb Kings...well there was only one player who brought them to that last tournament. And now that I've switched to VC, I suspect there won't be any. So I'll concede on that one.


My point in all of this isn't that the BotWD is game-breaking or auto-win; there are far too many factors at play for any single choice in WHFB to ever be that way. My point is that it's dramatically overpowered for its points cost, and compared to any other 50>= point magic banner in the game. There are 3 high elf players in my club, and numerous more at the tournaments I go to, and not a SINGLE one of them isn't running the banner.

You just admitted that none of its problems are really problems. You acknowledged that it is a defense against stuff we really have no other defense again. So its only problem is that it is an auto include.... So you have a problem with every army book that has an auto-include then? And you tell people who use those auto-includes they are bad people because of it?

My group doesn't use the banner in a friendly way at all. We use it in a optimized way to increase our chances of winning. You are basing your hatred of it, off of a theoretical net list that sinks half of the armies points in the banner unit. That list will only ever break even against one army. And even then, it will probably fail to do that.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
28-04-2014, 22:02
That list will only ever break even against one army. And even then, it will probably fail to do that.

Maybe if you're playing 20-0. In a standard Win-Loss-Draw scoring system (i.e. the one in the bloody BRB) a unit doesn't HAVE to earn it's points back so long as it doesn't give up any. If all of your other units earn at least their points back then the deathstar only needs to generate 100 points to secure you a victory. Moreover, the HE player will often have both his general and BSB in that unit, which is another 200 victory points he's not giving up. In addition to a squishy wizard. Those are vulnerable points in most every other army, but not in a HE list.

I would also submit that no other army has a faction-specific auto-include on the level of the BotWD. The are Warriors players who don't take skullcrushers or demon princes. Empire players who don't take Demis or Stanks. Vampire players who don't take vampires or terrorgheists. The closest you'll get is the Casket of Souls for the Tomb Kings, but they're lacking in competitive choices as it is so it's hard to begrudge them a couple.

The BotWD is too good. If it was 100 points there are people who would still take it.


That was exactly what I thought you WERE saying it did. What we have here is a failure to communicate.

Also, your calculations to get wounds through are only for S3 attacks. Against my trebuchets it does literally nothing. :P

No, but it works against your Grails and most of your characters, who are generally your heaviest hitters. Also anything the BotWD is going on is either nasty against knights (S6 great weapons that strike before your knights) or fast enough to greatly limit your ability to pick match-ups (dragon princes).

The Alarielle star is also swiftstride so your mobility advantage is limited, whilst the dragonprince deathstar is faster than you if I'm not mistaken. Plus bolt throwers plinking off knights, frost phoenixes in the face, and eagles ripping up your Treb crew turn 2, that's a rough matchup for your shining frenchmen.


It's a bent, undercosted, and over-powered item that should never have made it past playtesting. If it was in the BRB you'd see it more often than dispel scrolls.

NemoSD
28-04-2014, 22:49
Maybe if you're playing 20-0. In a standard Win-Loss-Draw scoring system (i.e. the one in the bloody BRB) a unit doesn't HAVE to earn it's points back so long as it doesn't give up any. If all of your other units earn at least their points back then the deathstar only needs to generate 100 points to secure you a victory. Moreover, the HE player will often have both his general and BSB in that unit, which is another 200 victory points he's not giving up. In addition to a squishy wizard. Those are vulnerable points in most every other army, but not in a HE list.

I would also submit that no other army has a faction-specific auto-include on the level of the BotWD. The are Warriors players who don't take skullcrushers or demon princes. Empire players who don't take Demis or Stanks. Vampire players who don't take vampires or terrorgheists. The closest you'll get is the Casket of Souls for the Tomb Kings, but they're lacking in competitive choices as it is so it's hard to begrudge them a couple.

The BotWD is too good. If it was 100 points there are people who would still take it.



No, but it works against your Grails and most of your characters, who are generally your heaviest hitters. Also anything the BotWD is going on is either nasty against knights (S6 great weapons that strike before your knights) or fast enough to greatly limit your ability to pick match-ups (dragon princes).

The Alarielle star is also swiftstride so your mobility advantage is limited, whilst the dragonprince deathstar is faster than you if I'm not mistaken. Plus bolt throwers plinking off knights, frost phoenixes in the face, and eagles ripping up your Treb crew turn 2, that's a rough matchup for your shining frenchmen.


It's a bent, undercosted, and over-powered item that should never have made it past playtesting. If it was in the BRB you'd see it more often than dispel scrolls.

Dude, make up your mind. If you want to use tournies as your baseline, 20-0 is the goal post that needs to be used. If casual play is the goal post, then let casual play be the goal post. The fact is, you are flipping back and forth like a fish out of water. One second it is a most have in all tournies (By the way, I have done tournies with and without. High Elves gotta stick a lot into relatively few points, and sometimes 50 points for that banner is not as important as other options.) but then we are using BRB missions and rules, at which point the whole tourny thing goes out the window anyways.

So your beef is that A: The local High Elf player you play casual games with is option 1: A dick and plays a WAAC list with a bunch of average, every day, beer and pretzel players, or option 2: he keeps beating you, and you can't be beaten.

Or B: You don't place at tournaments, thus every army has something horrible that keeps you from advancing.

There are a lot of army specific items that would be everywhere if they were in the BRB. Dragonhide Banner, Hellheart, Book of Hoeth, etc... and I only listed items in armies I run.

By the way, eagles die easy, frosties are murdered if you don't multi-charge along side of them, etc... bolt throwers can be scary, but not as much as you think vs 2+/6+ knights. Sure if they run up to me head on in Lance formation, I am going to use the big bolt and have fun. A cannon would be far far far worse in that situation though. You know, the whole difference between 10 and 6... and if I remember correctly, then cannon does not lose strength after it plasters the first dude. Ever Bret player I have played, except my fiancee who is still learning, will often do reform the turn before they plan to charge if cannons or bolt throwers are a threat, or ensure they never line up that juicy shot.

SteveW
28-04-2014, 22:57
bolt throwers can be scary, but not as much as you think vs 2+/6+ knights. Sure if they run up to me head on in Lance formation, I am going to use the big bolt and have fun. A cannon would be far far far worse in that situation though. You know, the whole difference between 10 and 6... and if I remember correctly, then cannon does not lose strength after it plasters the first dude. Ever Bret player I have played, except my fiancee who is still learning, will often do reform the turn before they plan to charge if cannons or bolt throwers are a threat, or ensure they never line up that juicy shot. Honestly neither cannon nor bolt throwers scare a bret player. They get off two shots each maximum and the ward save of 5+ keeps damage to a minimum.

CountUlrich
28-04-2014, 23:02
Dude, make up your mind. If you want to use tournies as your baseline, 20-0 is the goal post that needs to be used. If casual play is the goal post, then let casual play be the goal post. The fact is, you are flipping back and forth like a fish out of water. One second it is a most have in all tournies (By the way, I have done tournies with and without. High Elves gotta stick a lot into relatively few points, and sometimes 50 points for that banner is not as important as other options.) but then we are using BRB missions and rules, at which point the whole tourny thing goes out the window anyways.

So your beef is that A: The local High Elf player you play casual games with is option 1: A dick and plays a WAAC list with a bunch of average, every day, beer and pretzel players, or option 2: he keeps beating you, and you can't be beaten.

Or B: You don't place at tournaments, thus every army has something horrible that keeps you from advancing.

There are a lot of army specific items that would be everywhere if they were in the BRB. Dragonhide Banner, Hellheart, Book of Hoeth, etc... and I only listed items in armies I run.

By the way, eagles die easy, frosties are murdered if you don't multi-charge along side of them, etc... bolt throwers can be scary, but not as much as you think vs 2+/6+ knights. Sure if they run up to me head on in Lance formation, I am going to use the big bolt and have fun. A cannon would be far far far worse in that situation though. You know, the whole difference between 10 and 6... and if I remember correctly, then cannon does not lose strength after it plasters the first dude. Ever Bret player I have played, except my fiancee who is still learning, will often do reform the turn before they plan to charge if cannons or bolt throwers are a threat, or ensure they never line up that juicy shot.

Not all places use 20-0 for tournaments. Our entire region, with large, active and competitive player base, is scored 16-4/13-7/8-8 for big win, small win, draw.


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PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
28-04-2014, 23:41
Dude, make up your mind. If you want to use tournies as your baseline, 20-0 is the goal post that needs to be used. If casual play is the goal post, then let casual play be the goal post. The fact is, you are flipping back and forth like a fish out of water. One second it is a most have in all tournies (By the way, I have done tournies with and without. High Elves gotta stick a lot into relatively few points, and sometimes 50 points for that banner is not as important as other options.) but then we are using BRB missions and rules, at which point the whole tourny thing goes out the window anyways.

[...snip...]

There are a lot of army specific items that would be everywhere if they were in the BRB. Dragonhide Banner, Hellheart, Book of Hoeth, etc... and I only listed items in armies I run.



All the tournies in my area (west coast) are Win-Loss-Draw. The organizers here are all very opposed to 20-0 as it tilts the playing field in favour of a small number of lists and playstyles that aren't particularly creative (i.e. the "netlists"). To get max points you just need to beat your opponent by 100 points and score all of the objective points. There are no points for partially destroyed units, and no points for units that are fleeing but still on the table at game-end. In that meta the BotWD is extremely powerful. It protects an enormous amount of points, and makes the models typically targetted for bonus scenario points (generals, BSBs, and wizards) all very difficult to get at. Not to mention that it's just bloody frustrating to dance around this massive killy deathstar that's throwing out IF'ed dwellers, fiery convocations, etc. with impunity.

But even when it's not run in a deathstar build, it still makes for one unit that's rather difficult to deal with. 50 points is an inconsequential amount of points for the amount of utility the banner brings. As I said, if it was in the BRB then you'd see it in the vast majority of tournament lists. For 5 points more than an obsidian lodestone you get an exponentially better item. It's nowhere close to balanced with other items in the game.

None of the items you listed are anywhere near the level of the BotWD in terms of utility. Dragonhide Banner is a 50-point built-in harmonic convergence on charge turns with a one-use breathweapon that only affects the second round of combat. The hellheart is amazing, but it's a 1-use item that can be sniped out before it's activated, has a chance of whiffing with a really low range, and can be mitigated against by holding your wizard bunker further back in your formation (or sticking your wizards into a unit with BotWD). Plus it's taking up 50 points of magic item allowance and can only be stuck on wizards, which most armies don't have more than 2 of. Lots of lists wouldn't be able to find room for that.




By the way, eagles die easy, frosties are murdered if you don't multi-charge along side of them, etc... bolt throwers can be scary, but not as much as you think vs 2+/6+ knights. Sure if they run up to me head on in Lance formation, I am going to use the big bolt and have fun. A cannon would be far far far worse in that situation though. You know, the whole difference between 10 and 6... and if I remember correctly, then cannon does not lose strength after it plasters the first dude. Ever Bret player I have played, except my fiancee who is still learning, will often do reform the turn before they plan to charge if cannons or bolt throwers are a threat, or ensure they never line up that juicy shot

You would never use the big bolt unless the lance was whittled below LoS! levels. You'd use the 6 S4 AP shots which are the bane of Bret knights (S4 doesn't activate the boosted blessing save, and with AP reduces saves by 2). That's 1.11 dead knights at short range or .83 dead knights at long range, times three bolt throwers for 3.33 and 2.49 at short and long range respectively. Since the Brets have to pray you can expect 2-3 turns of that before they'll be in a position to charge, which is quite a few dead knights. Plus nearly everything in the HE book gets to hit before the Brets do, so even fewer Brets getting to strike.

As for cannons vs. bret lances that's pretty far off the topic of this discussion, which is about Dragon Princes (and now the merits of the BotWD).


Look, just because the BotWD isn't 100% effective against everything doesn't mean it isn't a broken, overpowered item. The nurgle demon prince is allergic to cannonballs, but that doesn't mean he's not wicked bent. Not every book can bring cannons, just like not every list can bring trebuchets. Not many armies have something effective to deal with 40 whitelions with the banner. You can chaff it all day long but you'll be hemorrhaging points in the process and with W-L-D scoring he only needs 100 points to get that win off you.

And if you're running 20-0 then whatever, you're still not going to have a fun time tabling an opponent with 1,200 points hiding in that unit. Especially not when your 2x4 skullcrushers and demonprince have magic weapons and the chimeras will evaporate before they get to strike.

NemoSD
29-04-2014, 06:33
All the tournies in my area (west coast) are Win-Loss-Draw. The organizers here are all very opposed to 20-0 as it tilts the playing field in favour of a small number of lists and playstyles that aren't particularly creative (i.e. the "netlists"). To get max points you just need to beat your opponent by 100 points and score all of the objective points. There are no points for partially destroyed units, and no points for units that are fleeing but still on the table at game-end. In that meta the BotWD is extremely powerful. It protects an enormous amount of points, and makes the models typically targetted for bonus scenario points (generals, BSBs, and wizards) all very difficult to get at. Not to mention that it's just bloody frustrating to dance around this massive killy deathstar that's throwing out IF'ed dwellers, fiery convocations, etc. with impunity.

But even when it's not run in a deathstar build, it still makes for one unit that's rather difficult to deal with. 50 points is an inconsequential amount of points for the amount of utility the banner brings. As I said, if it was in the BRB then you'd see it in the vast majority of tournament lists. For 5 points more than an obsidian lodestone you get an exponentially better item. It's nowhere close to balanced with other items in the game.

None of the items you listed are anywhere near the level of the BotWD in terms of utility. Dragonhide Banner is a 50-point built-in harmonic convergence on charge turns with a one-use breathweapon that only affects the second round of combat. The hellheart is amazing, but it's a 1-use item that can be sniped out before it's activated, has a chance of whiffing with a really low range, and can be mitigated against by holding your wizard bunker further back in your formation (or sticking your wizards into a unit with BotWD). Plus it's taking up 50 points of magic item allowance and can only be stuck on wizards, which most armies don't have more than 2 of. Lots of lists wouldn't be able to find room for that.




You would never use the big bolt unless the lance was whittled below LoS! levels. You'd use the 6 S4 AP shots which are the bane of Bret knights (S4 doesn't activate the boosted blessing save, and with AP reduces saves by 2). That's 1.11 dead knights at short range or .83 dead knights at long range, times three bolt throwers for 3.33 and 2.49 at short and long range respectively. Since the Brets have to pray you can expect 2-3 turns of that before they'll be in a position to charge, which is quite a few dead knights. Plus nearly everything in the HE book gets to hit before the Brets do, so even fewer Brets getting to strike.

As for cannons vs. bret lances that's pretty far off the topic of this discussion, which is about Dragon Princes (and now the merits of the BotWD).


Look, just because the BotWD isn't 100% effective against everything doesn't mean it isn't a broken, overpowered item. The nurgle demon prince is allergic to cannonballs, but that doesn't mean he's not wicked bent. Not every book can bring cannons, just like not every list can bring trebuchets. Not many armies have something effective to deal with 40 whitelions with the banner. You can chaff it all day long but you'll be hemorrhaging points in the process and with W-L-D scoring he only needs 100 points to get that win off you.

And if you're running 20-0 then whatever, you're still not going to have a fun time tabling an opponent with 1,200 points hiding in that unit. Especially not when your 2x4 skullcrushers and demonprince have magic weapons and the chimeras will evaporate before they get to strike.

-Pat pat pat- True, cannons were not part of the conversation, and I just threw the reference to make the point that our bolt throwers are not the best at murdering lance formations. While yes, the Str4 6 Shot varient can kill one night a turn, thanks to the rules of Lance formations, and cav charges, likely that lance formation wont lose much in the way of attacks. -shrug- That is also assuming the other guy is not an utter *****, knowing he is going to lose turn one, and doesn't put his lances right up in my face.

Anyways. Arguing with you is pointless, it is a year/almost a year since the book came out. The amount of bitching I have heard about this evil banner has gone away except for a handful of people... the same people across multiple forums I might add. Why has the bitching stopped? Because the BotWD is a molehill. You see a mountain. You whinge about climbing said mountains while everyone else bull dozes it or steps over it.

Good luck finding a Sherpa.

(In case it wasn't clear, this is my way of saying you've made up your mind, so moving on. Have fun with your pointless hate!)

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
29-04-2014, 09:20
-Pat pat pat- True, cannons were not part of the conversation, and I just threw the reference to make the point that our bolt throwers are not the best at murdering lance formations. While yes, the Str4 6 Shot varient can kill one night a turn, thanks to the rules of Lance formations, and cav charges, likely that lance formation wont lose much in the way of attacks. -shrug- That is also assuming the other guy is not an utter *****, knowing he is going to lose turn one, and doesn't put his lances right up in my face.

Anyways. Arguing with you is pointless, it is a year/almost a year since the book came out. The amount of bitching I have heard about this evil banner has gone away except for a handful of people... the same people across multiple forums I might add. Why has the bitching stopped? Because the BotWD is a molehill. You see a mountain. You whinge about climbing said mountains while everyone else bull dozes it or steps over it.

Good luck finding a Sherpa.

(In case it wasn't clear, this is my way of saying you've made up your mind, so moving on. Have fun with your pointless hate!)


Complaining is no more pointless now than it was a year ago. People didn't stop running BotWD deathstars because they suddenly started to suck, they did it because that **** isn't fun to play (with or against) and everybody already KNOWS it can win. Only rookies and ******** go to tournaments just to prove that the internet was right. Much more fun to prove that they were wrong.

Otherwise, it's nice to see that you could disengage from a discussion in a civilized, adult fashion rather than taking a juvenile dig at me while trying to claim the "last word." It's that level of maturity that makes the communities like Warseer such a welcoming, intelligent community to discuss our mutually shared passion for wargaming.

Chicago Slim
29-04-2014, 17:28
So, just to hijack the thread back to the original question:

In general, I like big units of cavalry (15-25), and I like small units of cavalry (5-10). I think that Dragon Princes are not currently a good choice to be a big unit of cavalry, mostly because Silver Helms do that job almost as well, at a significant savings.

Dragon Princes make quite good small cavalry units, because they hit very well (10-16 attacks, plus horses, depending on quite how you set it up, mostly hitting 8/9), at S5 (which doesn't suck). So, they can utterly crush chaff (and with their mobility, still get someplace useful the next turn), they can rock war machine crews (if they get there alive), and they're quite good against small (3-6) monstrous infantry (even a six-pack will be down to one rank, and thus not steadfast, with just three wounds; even a 5-pack of DP is pretty likely to pull that off, though they come-backs might screw up their having of a rank, themselves-- so, that gets dicey)

Of course, at a small size, they're liable to draw enough fire to get blowed up. T3 2+ 6++ isn't so hard, after all-- but the Ld 9 helps them go running around on the fringe of the field, and have some confidence that they'll handle the panic tests as they go. And, even with just two of them left, they can still crush chaff, and beat lots of war machine crews (not all, but many).

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
29-04-2014, 20:14
So, just to hijack the thread back to the original question:

In general, I like big units of cavalry (15-25), and I like small units of cavalry (5-10). I think that Dragon Princes are not currently a good choice to be a big unit of cavalry, mostly because Silver Helms do that job almost as well, at a significant savings.

Dragon Princes make quite good small cavalry units, because they hit very well (10-16 attacks, plus horses, depending on quite how you set it up, mostly hitting 8/9), at S5 (which doesn't suck). So, they can utterly crush chaff (and with their mobility, still get someplace useful the next turn), they can rock war machine crews (if they get there alive), and they're quite good against small (3-6) monstrous infantry (even a six-pack will be down to one rank, and thus not steadfast, with just three wounds; even a 5-pack of DP is pretty likely to pull that off, though they come-backs might screw up their having of a rank, themselves-- so, that gets dicey)

Of course, at a small size, they're liable to draw enough fire to get blowed up. T3 2+ 6++ isn't so hard, after all-- but the Ld 9 helps them go running around on the fringe of the field, and have some confidence that they'll handle the panic tests as they go. And, even with just two of them left, they can still crush chaff, and beat lots of war machine crews (not all, but many).

2+/2++ against flaming units is nothing to sneeze at either.

N00B
29-05-2014, 18:27
I love the models but find them underwhelming, especially as they use up special points not core as Silverhelms do.

My temptation would be to run them in a batch of 5 as they still have a decent punch on the charge and to basically use them like a chariot (10 S5 ASF strikes are pretty much like a chariot's impact hits).

They are also a great unit to buff - either heavens or beasts works well.

WhispersofBlood
29-05-2014, 18:49
I like running 10 with the champ having an ogre blade and enchanted shield. He then becomes a cheap hero that if you pair it with life magic can never really stay dead and yields no points when killed.

Drakemaster can only take magic weapons.

SteveW
29-05-2014, 19:07
Drakemaster can only take magic weapons.




unless you play by the rules.

When I read "Drakemaster may take a magic weapon and/or magic armor worth up to a total of....."

I assume it means he can have both. Silly me.





Sent from my lumina 925 using ninja's

WhispersofBlood
29-05-2014, 19:55
unless you play by the rules.

When I read "Drakemaster may take a magic weapon and/or magic armor worth up to a total of....."

I assume it means he can have both. Silly me.





Sent from my lumina 925 using ninja's

Wow twice in one week, I'm usually so good with those lol. Just checked and every other special champion is only weapon.

SteveW
29-05-2014, 19:57
Wow twice in one week, I'm usually so good with those lol. Just checked and everyone other special champion is only weapon.




yeah, cuz Drakemasters are like mini heroes instead of champions. Use one with regrowth to feel like a cheater.





Sent from my lumina 925 using ninja's

N00B
30-05-2014, 14:53
That kind of seems awesome Very expensive though. 80+ points for a unit champion (although better than my lord level goblins other than wounds).

I like it though. It isn't like life is a bad lore to take anyway.

Bigman
30-05-2014, 21:15
Can we get back onto the thread.

This isn't a BOTWD thread.

And please can people stop byatching, everyone who moans would take the banner in a heartbeat if they could...yes it's good. Yes it should be more points. It's not. Leave it. Nothing will change. Stop derailing the thread.


Now DP-I've bought 10...am considering a unit of 10+2 characters...either prince noble, noble/noble or Mage plus noble.

copesh
12-06-2014, 21:50
OnTopic:

I like a unit of 5, the banner that gives strider, FC with a mounted noble with the star lance
6 knights that hit like a tonne of bricks and can go hunting whatever they want.

I just wish we could mount them on drakes and make them rare - ah, to have the ability to take Monterous Cav....

Kahadras
19-06-2014, 00:13
People didn't stop running BotWD deathstars because they suddenly started to suck, they did it because that **** isn't fun to play (with or against)

People stopped running the BotWD deathstar because they figured out that it wasn't the insta-win they'd been promised. The Bannerstar is a list intended to 'win' not to be 'fun'.


And please can people stop byatching, everyone who moans would take the banner in a heartbeat if they could...yes it's good. Yes it should be more points. It's not. Leave it. Nothing will change. Stop derailing the thread.

Agreed. If the banner was as good as people made out we'd only see High Elf armies winning tournaments. I've never bothered fielding it as I never really face armies with magical attacks and have had issues in the past with putting my Archmage in a combat block.

On the subject of the Dragon Princes I'm not a big fan. I tend to use Silver Helms as my cavalry as they make up my core tax and I prefer my special points to go on infantry such as Phoenix Guard or White Lion. The two uses I see for them are....

1. A big killy block with a Prince, a couple of Nobles and a magic caster lurking nearby with Lore of Beasts. Get the unit into combat with a Wildform or, even better, a bubbled Savage Beast on them and go to town.
2. A small mobile unit that hunts down enemy chaff or holds up a larger enemy unit that have flaming attacks.