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Rawdogg15
08-04-2014, 18:36
Thinking of taking this 2000pt list to my first tournament this year. I was desperate to include the Battleaxe of the Last Waaagh! So my Black Orc Warboss with said weapon is not a negotiable part of the list. I'd love to hear some comments on the rest though.

Lords:
Black Orc Warboss, Battleaxe of the Last Waaagh!, Boar, Shield - 287

Savage Orc Great Shaman, Lv4 - 205


Heroes:
Savage Orc Shaman, Lv2, Lucky Shrunken Head, Boar - 171

Savage Orc Big Boss, BSB, Banner of Eternal Flame, Boar - 126

Night Goblin Sahman, Lv1, Dispel Scroll - 75


Core:
24 Savage Orcs, Additional Hand Weapons, Big Stabbas, Full Comand - 271

20 Night Goblins, short bows, 3 fanatics - 135

20 Night Goblins, short bows, 3 fanatics - 135


Special:
9 Savage Orc Boar Boy Big 'Uns, Spears, Shields, Full Command, Banner of Swiftness - 284

Rare:
Doomdiver Catapult - 80

Doomdiver Catapult - 80

Goblin Rock Lobber - 85

Mangler Squigs - 65


The way I see it working is: The NGs and Savage Orcs on foot will line up in the middle of the board with the NGs flanking the SOs. They will move forward together (depending on animosity), release fanatics to soften up units and then have the Savages charge in to clean up what's left. More softening up will also be done by the artillery whilst the mangler squig bounces up one flank and the Boar Boys up the other, ideally lining up a flank charge to get the battleaxe into play. The mangler and the middle blocks are essentially a distraction that needs to be dealt with and which may actually do a fair bit of damage itself whilst I manoeuvre the boar boys into position.

I have considered dropping the NG shaman but he is basically 75 pts for a free dispel and an extra channeling attempt (plus possibly a useful spell in the odd game). Ideally I would have liked the lv4 in the boar unit but I evidently can't have my cake and eat it if I want the Black Orc Warboss with that magic item.

Any other thoughts, I'd be glad to hear them.


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russellmoo
08-04-2014, 23:08
I would drop the lvl 2 shaman and use the points to increase the night goblins to size thirty.

Rawdogg15
09-04-2014, 06:06
I can see exactly why you would say that and it's a good idea in the sense that it would create more of a tarpit. However, 1. The NGs are purely a fanatic delivery system and 2. The lv2 makes it almost certain that I'll get foot of Gork, probably on the lv4. I will think about your advice though, I have the models to make at least one of those units up to 30. Thanks.

Rawdogg15
10-04-2014, 21:55
Not a great start for the list. Rolled Dawn attack for scenario and ended up with savage orcs trapped behind the NG unit with the shaman and the boar boys right in the middle. Savages and NG Shaman unit both failed animosity first turn and couldn't move. Boars ended up charging turn one and got whittled down. Everything fled... Sad face :(

winsafra
01-05-2014, 18:50
That's always a risk with orcs and goblins, don't take it to heart, give it another shot and see how it goes, I like the idea of this list, savage boar boyz don't get seen very often!

Wulfrun
03-05-2014, 16:13
Ditch the boar boys (you don't see them very often for a reason!) , and your level 2, if you don't get foot you don't get foot. With those points get either wolf or boar chariots for your cav, or if you want more chaff/redirect go wolf riders. Upgrade your night gobbo to lvl 2 so that you have appropriate hexes or curse of da bad moon to wipe out skellies and skaven in droves.
Your savage orc group is also to small, get rid of the big stabbas and get the sav orc shaman with the shrunken head in their ranks, cast fist of gork on him and you have a pretty epic frenzied hero in the front ranks.
Why do you have your bsb running around with the flaming banner on his own? What will this achieve?
Honestly I would nearly scrap a doom diver and put in another mangler or invest in more men/heroes.

Rawdogg15
05-05-2014, 06:55
Ditch the boar boys (you don't see them very often for a reason!) , and your level 2, if you don't get foot you don't get foot. With those points get either wolf or boar chariots for your cav, or if you want more chaff/redirect go wolf riders. Upgrade your night gobbo to lvl 2 so that you have appropriate hexes or curse of da bad moon to wipe out skellies and skaven in droves.
Your savage orc group is also to small, get rid of the big stabbas and get the sav orc shaman with the shrunken head in their ranks, cast fist of gork on him and you have a pretty epic frenzied hero in the front ranks.
Why do you have your bsb running around with the flaming banner on his own? What will this achieve?
Honestly I would nearly scrap a doom diver and put in another mangler or invest in more men/heroes.

Thanks for the advice. I will take your points about the shamans under consideration. The boar unit is the whole reason the list exists in the first place though so won't be dropping that, no matter how fluffy it is. The bsb goes in the boar unit so isn't on his own. I would have put the shrunken head in the foot block but can't afford it on the lv4 along with the general at 2000 points. I also can't afford to put lv4 on a boar, lord points too tight. Also, anything else I add to the list, I have to paint before June along with the lv4 shaman, the Ng shaman and all the artillery. At this point I'm really only looking to tweak if possible e.g. If I drop the banner of swiftness I can make the foot savages biguns and demote the boar boys to normal savage orcs. Might this give the combat power of the list a bit more balance or is that foot block still too small?

EvanM
12-05-2014, 21:34
I think its a risky list, you could randomly destroy the enemy but maybe not.

I think you really need at least one horde in an OnG army, maybe put your boar characters into the sav orc unit to make it a bit of a deathstar?
OnG are cheap, you could easily take out some things and add say 40 orc boys or 40 goblins. You kind of have lots of characters and lots of artillery but only two combat blocks. The problem with the boar boys is the lack of much armor so you get shot up right?

Rawdogg15
13-05-2014, 20:21
The problem with the boar boys is the lack of much armor so you get shot up right?

The boar boys have shields and the boar gives them +2 to that to make it a 4+ armour save. The lucky shrunken head then gives all the savages in that unit a 5+ ward. The general has heavy armour, shield and a boar for a 2+ armour save so, actually, the protection is reasonably good I think, certainly better than putting the same models on foot.

I recognise that the current wisdom is to have three combat blocks but my theory is that the fanatics, mangler and artillery should limit the requirement for this. I'm sure I could get another big block of orcs, black orcs or trolls in the list if I dropped a unit of night goblins, the NG shaman scroll caddy and probably the rock Lobba as well. Would this be a fair trade do you think?

As I explained at the start of the post though, the boar unit is not negotiable. It is based on getting the best out of the battleaxe of the last WAAAGH! A weapon that I absolutely love. I am not actually that concerned about breaking the world and riding roughshod over all competition. I'd be more than happy with a couple of wins, even if they were down to random dice etc. I feel as though I could be onto something more than that though. There is plenty of ranged threat in the list with the artillery and every spell in the Orc magic deck. Additionally, the mangler Squig and the fanatics are designed to make inroads into the combat blocks of the opposition whilst being ultimately expendable early on. With those key units reeling, that's when the Orc blocks enter the fray and (hopefully) clean up what is left.

In my last game, this worked quite well against the new Wood Elves. The fanatics took out the wild riders, the mangler drew most of the turn one shooting and bought some time for the orcs to get into position. The infantry block held up the middle of the battlefield whilst the boars started at one end of the table and charged sideways through his army. By the end all I had left was a Doomdiver, the Warboss and about ten night goblins but it was a win and the tactics had worked.

The big worry is, will that ever work against Warriors or Daemons etc?




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EvanM
13-05-2014, 21:30
I think it could be a fair trade.
I think that the list can work but If i was playing as your army I'd rather have some more men to hide behind. What I would suggest is maybe add 500 pts of core troops and make this a 2500 pt army. I can see the use of maybe 30-40 vanilla orcs, wolf riders, chariots, black orcs, or 40 gobbos. It may not actually be tactically the best thing to do but its the way we were meant to play warhammer. Its kind of stupid how lenient the point spending rules are these days. I like that we can make whatever list we want but nowadays people make WoC armies that have 10 models (characters, monsters, chariots only) and Im like wtf is this.

Rawdogg15
13-05-2014, 21:46
What you say does make complete sense to me and I agree about the broken WoC lists. My current list is for throne of skulls though so 2000 points is all I get.

Beyond that tournament I may well take your advice a crowbar some black orcs in. Until then, I don't think I'll have the time to paint whole new units to tourney standard. What I do know is that the list, as it is, is a lot of fun and that's all I want from throne of skulls really. Plenty of advice now on this thread for developing the army after that though :-D

EvanM
14-05-2014, 03:05
I actually looked into OnG (havent played them in a while) and dude, every single unit is insanely cheap! OMG! you can make armies of 250 models in a 2000 pt army!

The annoying thing is animosity but if that doesnt ruin your whole army then you could definitely field 40 orcs, maybe 60 gobbos, light cavalry and for less than like 500 pts. Is that feasable? I dont know of ANYONE who plays armies focused on core units, it seems like maximizing characters and special/rare units is the paradigm.

Rawdogg15
15-05-2014, 12:33
Next big quandary - How good actually are big stabbas? In my experience they are not that good but not bad for 20 points. Typically however, I usually roll 1 on the D3 for impact hits and do no wounds anyway. Since this list is aimed at being used for Throne of Skulls, I was thinking about the potential for the random scenario to be Blood and Glory and whether it would be better to ditch the big stabbas in favour of two standard bearers in the two NG units. Would this be a worthwhile swap or is it just making my one solid infantry block marginally weaker for the sake of one scenario?

G.Hawke
15-05-2014, 14:05
Next big quandary - How good actually are big stabbas? In my experience they are not that good but not bad for 20 points. Typically however, I usually roll 1 on the D3 for impact hits and do no wounds anyway. Since this list is aimed at being used for Throne of Skulls, I was thinking about the potential for the random scenario to be Blood and Glory and whether it would be better to ditch the big stabbas in favour of two standard bearers in the two NG units. Would this be a worthwhile swap or is it just making my one solid infantry block marginally weaker for the sake of one scenario?

Big stabba's are there to make up the points, not take them up. If you can bolster another unit then do it. Might i suggest moving your points around a little;
drop the shields and spears on the savage orc boars, invest in a 10th model and hand weapons. If you want rock solid cavalry go for normals, but for the love of gork don't use savage. Use the two hand weapons, wild abbadon on cavalry makes them ridiculously killy, especially with the banner of swiftness.

10 big'un savage orc boars with additional hand weapons, full command and the banner of swiftness is 270pts, and much deadlier than the 9 with shields.

here's something to consider;

20 Night Goblins, short bows, 2 fanatics - 110

20 Night Goblins, short bows, 2 fanatics - 110

20 Night goblins, short bows, fantatic - 75pts

Special:
10 Savage Orc Boar Boy Big 'Uns, additional hand weapon, Full Command, Banner of Swiftness - 270

those points i've found and adjusted mean you've now got an extra unit, a full 10 man boar charge and your fanatics are now spread out enough to actually cause problems for anyone trying to mass charge.

just something to consider.

-hawke

Rawdogg15
15-05-2014, 20:50
You've definitely given me something to think about there. To fully implement your advice would involve too much painting for it to be ready before TOS but certainly gives me stuff to think about for developing the list after that. Thanks for the advice.


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Wulfrun
23-05-2014, 01:50
Sorry it didn't tell me that people were talking in this! Anyway your main issue won't just be warriors and daemons but also dwarfs and lizardmen. If dwarfs get hatred on you or if you verse a gunline they will shut down all your chaff before it can do anything and your hordes alone don't have the numbers to hold out against their full units i fear.
Daemons are an entirely different kettle of fish, you will do well against nurgle and khorne, as nurgle are usually slow enough so you can have your way and khorne are generally uncompetitive now except for some thirster builds, the hounds and the khorne cannon. Tzeentch and Slaanesh you will have a very hard time with, slaanesh will stop your movement and combined with them being faster than you and general orc animosity you don't have much in the way of countering it. Tzeentch is just annoying as you will be mostly doing panic checks the entire game, avoid their flames and you should be fine.
Warriors are probably your most equal, even better if you come up against a monster mash list as you have quite a few counters, you shouldn't have many problems with them unless theyre flying the daemon prince of invincibility, in which case redirect or get your battleaxe in there and hope for the best!

Never take big stabbaz, they are useless and you will barely get points back because you probably won't get the charge much with them. Always put additional hand weapons on savs, their attacks is what makes them killy.

My issue hawke is with three units of night gobbos if one runs then they may be close enough to cause panic somewhere else, I know this can be negated but I don't like filling my front line out with too many squishy targets even if their shooting can do a bit and you have another Fanatic bus, i would honestly put it into wolf riders, these will ensure that the boars should reach a decent target and not be blocked elsewhere, two units of five would definitely give this list a more competitive edge.

Savagest
23-05-2014, 02:30
I tend to disagree with the smaller 5 man units of Wolf riders, yes chaff is good but O&G Chaff are not the best, Animosity does play a decent roll with them, I cant count how many times my "Chaff" decided it is a good idea to charge my opponent's death star instead of the squishy artillery crew.

"Never take the Big Stabba" Great advice, I Agree, Ran it a few times not worth the 20pts.

I prefer to run a blunt force list, 2-3 bigger blocks, 30 NGs with Fanatics to stop that heavy cavalry charges, with my "chaff" being 2 river trolls staying near my battle line for redirecting and the like, once those trolls get into combat they can hold up whole fast cavalry units, full artillery kit (Doom Diver x2, Rock Lobbax2) and Big Ol' Foot of Gork doing what it does best. The Hand of Gork is a great spell to help with mobility, pick up one your self sustaining units drop it behind an enemies battle line (look for that grey seer's unit), Of course one fighty character to turn the tide of any battle (hell yeah to the axe of the last waaaaaggghh!). One level 4 Orc Shaman should do the trick for getting foot, my scroll caddy is a level 2 NG, a hex or an augment always helps or vindictive does well for enemy chaff. In Short I say nay to the chaff!!

Wulfrun
23-05-2014, 13:17
It's not the best because then we would have everything pretty darn decent, if not go wolf or boar chariots, for their price they are still cheap and effective chaff, I've had one wolf chariot hold off three rat ogres and kill one before they chewed through it, that's a pretty good deal :P. Wolf riders do go bad if you roll for animosity, but if your rolling that often then you are rolling higher than the odds, most of the time it hasn't got in my way at all with them.
Trolls can be excellent chaff but you can't complain about animosity and then trade it for stupidity without your general being next to both flanks. I always prefer rock lobbers over doom divers, I guess coz I personally have more luck with them, though I normally take 2 lobbas and 1 diver anyway. I agree with the magic, though I always try and run at least a lvl 2 in little waagh as well, roll up bad moon or a few of the others and its great or just straight out sig spell.
In short I say yea to the chaff! :P
P.S. this is what I love about O&G, very few armies can argue about this, while with us we can argue about any aspect and still have options coming out the WAAAAAAAAGHzoo :D

Rawdogg15
30-05-2014, 09:44
Last night, the list had a rather disastrous outing against brettonians! In one sense, I'm not too bothered because it was a fairly typical OnG implosion rather than anything I did or didn't do i.e. The Warboss's unit failed animosity and he ended up killing four of his own unit, The Lv4 miscast foot and went down a hole, killing five savage orcs in the process and a fanatic went two inches out of one of the NG units then spun back through it causing 5 wounds and a panic which took them off the table. Meanwhile, his chaff took out my mangler, one doom diver misfired and blew up and his lord took out my lord in a challenge. I have since thrown away my unlucky blue dice (they have previous form to this end) and bought some new lucky green dice! I think this might make the difference.

The biggest annoyance is that I really didn't learn anything about the list that I didn't already know. We were playing blood and glory though and I was glad that I had dropped the big stabbaz for the extra banners. Only two more weeks to go and I am unlikely to get more than three more games in before tourney. Any advice on how to roll better? :-)

Wulfrun
01-06-2014, 04:28
Burn those dice with fire! And never use any that look like them ever again. That's probably the most things I've ever heard go wrong in an orc army ever.

Rawdogg15
02-06-2014, 21:44
It was pretty horrendous. I didn't even mention that one of the NG units failed animosity and had to charge peasant bowmen. After winning the combat, they then had to overrun into a big knight block. That combat didn't go well...

Thinking about all of this has prompted me to ask a few questions though:
1. Is 6 dicing Foot of Gork on turn one always a good idea?
2. Is having a black orc character who beats up his own unit actually worth it. Is animosity really that bad?
3. If a mangler is marched into by a small fast cav unit, does it earn its points back or not? Should I be happy with opponents doing that or not?
4. If I have a choice of doom diving trebuchets or knights, which should I go for?
5. If fanatics don't reach enemy units, am I better off backing away with my own unit and firing short bows to try and avoid "friendly fire."

russellmoo
03-06-2014, 01:10
I will tale a stab at this-
1- not sure about 6 dice and turn one, but you do want to try and cast foot of girl as often as possible, if for no other reason than to force your opponent to dispel it, so that you can cast hand of gork.
2- At low point levels a blorc is a must, at 2500+ you can get by without.
3- II don't think you want a mangled to get chaffed, it is there to kill important things.
4- I would pick on the knights as doom divers will perform wonders against this target, there are other ways of taking out a treb.
5- My night goblins are set up to shoot, and only engage if things are not going according to da kunnin plan.

Wulfrun
05-06-2014, 12:38
1. Foot of Gork is good but I'd normally be throwing out hand of mork or whatnot to move my key troops to the slogging faster and if the enemies close enough boosting a unit with ere we go. But it really comes down to the game, if its a gunline then foot or hand can really help as it limits there amount of fire, for fast armies hands down foot as they will come to you and you won't have to worry, WOC are another good foot choice, no firepower so sit back and stomp im till your ready for the fight.
2.Unless your running hordes that can take casualties then no (this means 60 to 80 plus) because you want the enemy to be doing that for you not ya boss.
3. manglers are there to hit whatever they can, if they knock out chaff, thats great! If they knock into their main anvil, great! With how much manglers cost, as long as they're not shot down (or run into your own line!) then don't worry, and if they march into you, then you dont have to worry about them being shot up!
4. Doom divers are for precisely what you stated, elite infantry and cavalry and when those units are all gone then chaff and blocks. Rock lobbers are our warmachine and horde destroyers, or just get a goblin hero on great wolf round the back of their lines and let him lay into em.
5. Shooting is what gobbos do best, only netters, skulkers and heroes do anything in combat, using them as fanatic busses and then getting as many shots out as possible is the way to go, just dont let them get in the way of your main lines march and whatever you do, don't put them behind your other units otherwise cunning generals can make you launch fanatics straight up the **** of the unit in front of you.

Rawdogg15
08-06-2014, 20:16
Thanks for the advice guys. I won't be able to play again before the tournament now so we'll see how it goes. Cheers for your input.

Savagest
14-06-2014, 23:47
- 6 Dicing Foot is an awesome Idea, Although I find 5 dicing foot usually works no problem.
- If your unit with your shaman animosities, no foot, no hand of Gork, a Black Orc crushing 2 or so skulls to let you keep casting is a good idea.
- Dont be stressed about loosing a mangler to groups of fast cavalry, the points trade out is pretty fair, if you can keep the manglers alive for some heavy cavalry kills do it but don't be too stressed. Just saber tusks at 21 pts sucks loosing manglers to.

Rawdogg15
17-06-2014, 21:41
Well, Throne of Skulls has now been and gone and, I'm sad to say, the list did not cover itself in too much glory. Played 5, lost 5 :-(

First game: dwarf gyrocopters led my savage orcs all over the table whilst he occupied the watchtower. Game two: absolutely smashed by a filthy wall of Skaven and their pet abomination. Game three a very close loss to daemons, just couldn't get through the plaguebearers. Game four, very close loss to Empire, too many demigryphs. Final game, up rocks Wales ETC player Joel Smith with Dark Elves. First turn I smashed about half his army with fanatics, war machines and foot of Gork. He then dwellers'd my battleaxe unit down to two normal grunts and the Warboss. His executioners then finished me off.

Really fun tournament and a really fun list but definitely not a tournament winner I'm afraid. Not enough that can smash face or stick around vs smashy opponent units. Back to the drawing board.


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King Arthur
21-06-2014, 19:21
Hi Adam :shifty: glad you had fun was looking forward to you tales from ToS and my woodies are ready to play you again!

Rawdogg15
22-06-2014, 08:36
Hi Adam :shifty: glad you had fun was looking forward to you tales from ToS and my woodies are ready to play you again!

Looking forward to facing the woodies again but will be with VC or Daemons now :)

King Arthur
22-06-2014, 10:14
Interesting I haven't seen your daemons yet looking forward to it! :)

Rawdogg15
22-06-2014, 15:30
Tzeentch magical gunline. Very different kind of list to what I normally favour.