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Alltaken
09-04-2014, 03:45
First time I read them I really liked the unit, I still think their rules are pretty interesting.
For me they're a S4+ Hunter unit or a free disruptor on a unit 15 - 20 strong, but all the brief snippets of opinions I read tend to think them hienous.

Is the cost to prohivitive? Is it too much sub par and not worth even on casual games?

From my servoskull

SpanielBear
09-04-2014, 04:37
From what I understand, it's not that they are bad, more that they have a lot to compete with as a rare choice. Also, ranking up is a pain, what with all the whips.

Leogun_91
09-04-2014, 05:24
They are quite expensive and depend a lot on what you meet. In close combat they can probably be worth it (as long as they don't meet too heavily armored troops) but against shooting they have the defense of a night goblin and cost five times as much

Lord Dan
09-04-2014, 06:49
I have no idea as to why GW didn't make them a skirmishing unit and toss them in special, as they would then at least be viable in units of 5-7 as support for your Executioner blocks. Any model that costs that much needs some kind of permanent protection, because no matter how awesome they are in combat they're going to die before they get there against any competent opponent. As they stand they're easily targeted by missile fire, generally have no save against said missile far, are prohibitively expensive, and, as SpanielBear mentioned, compete for rare points.

An average casting of Soul Quench kills 70 points worth, which is just absurd.

Colonel Mayhem
09-04-2014, 09:01
I have a feeling they are rare because the High Elf sisters are rare. I would not be surprised if the wood elves got a unit called Sisters of the forest or something in rare.

Lord Dan
09-04-2014, 09:05
Haha, good call. At least the High Elf sisters made sense from a background perspective. The DE variants feel blatantly tacked-on to fill the minimum two-kit requirement for all plastic boxes.

Sinsigel
09-04-2014, 09:06
I have no idea as to why GW didn't make them a skirmishing unit and toss them in special, as they would then at least be viable in units of 5-7 as support for your Executioner blocks. Any model that costs that much needs some kind of permanent protection, because no matter how awesome they are in combat they're going to die before they get there against any competent opponent. As they stand they're easily targeted by missile fire, generally have no save against said missile far, are prohibitively expensive, and, as SpanielBear mentioned, compete for rare points.

An average casting of Soul Quench kills 70 points worth, which is just absurd.

I get the same feeling whenever I flip the bestiary page for sisters of avelorn, only to find out that they can't take musicians.:(

Colonel Mayhem
09-04-2014, 10:07
Quite off-topic but just a thought that occured to me: Wood elf Sisters of War. Wardancer(Sisters of war)/Waywatcher combo-kit. Guess what sex the new wardancer unit will have;)

The bearded one
09-04-2014, 13:23
Quite off-topic but just a thought that occured to me: Wood elf Sisters of War. Wardancer(Sisters of war)/Waywatcher combo-kit. Guess what sex the new wardancer unit will have;)

I have zero qualms.

Elves are rather androgynous anyway. And the modelranges can always use some more female models, particularly goodlooking female head bits.

WhispersofBlood
09-04-2014, 13:35
I have no idea as to why GW didn't make them a skirmishing unit and toss them in special, as they would then at least be viable in units of 5-7 as support for your Executioner blocks. Any model that costs that much needs some kind of permanent protection, because no matter how awesome they are in combat they're going to die before they get there against any competent opponent. As they stand they're easily targeted by missile fire, generally have no save against said missile far, are prohibitively expensive, and, as SpanielBear mentioned, compete for rare points.

An average casting of Soul Quench kills 70 points worth, which is just absurd.

DE rare is contested? Other than Warlocks, sisters are probably the next best thing in terms of rules/point cost. I think their lack of use is more a symptom of the game rather than any lack of ability they may have. If infantry units, were costed correctly/more useful (on average as I can name several solid infantry units) you would see more of them, and thus the ability to disrupt would be more valuable. On the other hand, they are very similar to PG, in that they will often have the same hit and wound stats, you will get more armour against sisters, but are auto disrupted in exchange.

Snake1311
09-04-2014, 13:47
I have no idea as to why GW didn't make them a skirmishing unit and toss them in special, as they would then at least be viable in units of 5-7 as support for your Executioner blocks. Any model that costs that much needs some kind of permanent protection, because no matter how awesome they are in combat they're going to die before they get there against any competent opponent. As they stand they're easily targeted by missile fire, generally have no save against said missile far, are prohibitively expensive, and, as SpanielBear mentioned, compete for rare points.

An average casting of Soul Quench kills 70 points worth, which is just absurd.

The special / rare consideration here actually makes very little difference now BTs are special. Your rare allowance is unlikely to be that full.

Its more that they don't really do anything that special, especially when you can get your witches in your core allowance.

Alltaken
09-04-2014, 14:19
Yeah, I also didnt understand the rare slot competition, its just doom warlocks there for me.

I though a 10 man unit correctly screened could survive some, and for me magic is really a lotery,
Last time I played, 3 casters with 4 and 6 dices en my 2 magic phases, my openent got 10 and 9, I lost turn 2 to arnazhipals black terror or horror, I plan magic defense , but thats as far as I anticipate its effects, thats my "soul quench excuse"

From my servoskull

Phazael
09-04-2014, 15:52
The real issue is that there is literally nothing they do that witches do not do for less cost and core.

Knifeparty
09-04-2014, 15:59
They are a 15 point model that is strength 3, So they are terrible. They should be 11 points at most.

The bearded one
09-04-2014, 16:27
Their rank disruption ability, I can imagine that to be a damnable pain in the ass for skaven slave busses :p

Phazael
09-04-2014, 16:48
Maybe, but steadfast 8 is still easily makeable and they have to make it to the slaves through all the shooting in the first place.

The bearded one
09-04-2014, 19:03
Leadership 8 would only be possible with queek headtaker, or a grey seer (or warlord) in a unit with the standard of discipline.

Considering ld is capped at 10, and it's not hard for skavenunits to get +3 already on their leadership through ranks, a standard of discipline is generally redundant, and the space for a magic banner can be used way more efficiently for the stormbanner (and plaguebanner for plaguemonks). Against sisters of slaughter skaven will almost always be brought down to ld7, at most.

Voss
09-04-2014, 20:20
Meh. But the skaven should still just win through weight of numbers, and not care about the temporary leadership penalty. Assuming the skaven don't causally obliterate the unit before it even gets to combat.


They are a 15 point model that is strength 3, So they are terrible. They should be 11 points at most.

I'd say the t3 and no armor is even worse than the strength issue (though that doesn't help). A pricey combat unit that is bad at all aspects of combat is... puzzling, at best. And their equipment is a mind bogglingly poor setup (hand weapon & shield when you get a 4+ ward in combat is, well, useless). They are the ASF problem in microcosm- without mapping a magic item buff onto entire units (and armies) everyone would just point and laugh. Even the gobbos.

Knifeparty
09-04-2014, 21:39
Toughness 3 and no armour is a problem for sure, but how is that any different from pretty much any other unit in the Dark Elf roster. Technically they are the most survivable infantry unit when in combat in the whole army. The problem is getting there, but that's why you need target saturation for DE.

Sexiest_hero
10-04-2014, 00:48
I use a block of 15 and they do fine, people usually shy away from bs shooting and most that don't spend way more time trying to blink down warlocks and the Peg rider of doom, or the huge witch horde. And one they are in combat, it's game on.

Shadowsinner
10-04-2014, 01:45
the real question is why bother taking them when you could just have black guard instead?? the sister will only ever wound on a 4+ considering that most models with a higher S or WS also are t4. the 4+ ward is a gimmick and only works in combat, and they aren't stubborn or immune to psyc. Literally every other choice in the book is more cost efficient and/or better at killing things.

Voss
10-04-2014, 02:25
I use a block of 15 and they do fine, people usually shy away from bs shooting and most that don't spend way more time trying to blink down warlocks and the Peg rider of doom, or the huge witch horde. And one they are in combat, it's game on.
Right, so... why not just have more of those?

Lord Dan
10-04-2014, 02:58
Yeah, 15 Sisters almost buys you two units of 5 Doomfire Warlocks....

Leogun_91
10-04-2014, 13:02
I'd say the t3 and no armor is even worse than the strength issue (though that doesn't help). A pricey combat unit that is bad at all aspects of combat is... puzzling, at best. And their equipment is a mind bogglingly poor setup (hand weapon & shield when you get a 4+ ward in combat is, well, useless). They are the ASF problem in microcosm- without mapping a magic item buff onto entire units (and armies) everyone would just point and laugh. Even the gobbos.They are far from bad at all aspects of combat though, they fail at fighting high armor foes but far from all enemies are such. With a 4+ wardsave they have a fair chance at surviving in combat. They would be well worth their points if you could guarantee that they would reach combat.
Against the previously talked about Skaven slaves (5 wide sisters) in horde formation we get the following;
16 attacks from sisters, 10,66 hits before re-roll, slightly more than 14 after re-rolls
14 rolls to wound, 7 wounds, 2,33 ones, after re-rolls 8 wounds.
Slaves strike back with 16 attacks, 5,3 hits, 2,6 wounds, 2,22 after armor saves, 1,11 after ward saves. 1 Sister dead. The sisters actually killed more pts worth of models than the slaves (though barely so) and slaves should therefore be considered insufficient to grind them down (the sisters will kill more every round and will not lose the combat).

In combat they are good but while getting there they are extremely fragile and you will be forced to screen them to get anywhere. Black Guard of Naggarond is a good replacement for using sisters although they aren't as good at surviving close combat they hit just as well or better against most foes and at least a few of the arrows thrown their way can be saved.

Klerik
10-04-2014, 14:49
Much like the old book bolt throwers, they aren't bad, they just aren't worth the points and there are better things to take

tmr8188
10-04-2014, 22:19
I use mine in a unit of 15 with the war banner and musician 5 wide with a blood wrack shrine and lvl 4 life sorceress. They don't get a ton of fire when I have a hoard of witch elves with a cauldron. Granted I don't have a lot that can bust heavily armoured targets...

Sexiest_hero
11-04-2014, 01:26
I ran out of slots for doomfire warlocks and they are good enough to not cripple me while taking people who never see them by surprise.the are like dark eldar bloodbrides. If you are not ready for them people will be reading your book going wtf.

Voss
11-04-2014, 02:12
They are far from bad at all aspects of combat though, they fail at fighting high armor foes but far from all enemies are such. With a 4+ wardsave they have a fair chance at surviving in combat. They would be well worth their points if you could guarantee that they would reach combat.
Against the previously talked about Skaven slaves (5 wide sisters) in horde formation we get the following;
16 attacks from sisters, 10,66 hits before re-roll, slightly more than 14 after re-rolls
14 rolls to wound, 7 wounds, 2,33 ones, after re-rolls 8 wounds.
Slaves strike back with 16 attacks, 5,3 hits, 2,6 wounds, 2,22 after armor saves, 1,11 after ward saves. 1 Sister dead. The sisters actually killed more pts worth of models than the slaves (though barely so) and slaves should therefore be considered insufficient to grind them down (the sisters will kill more every round and will not lose the combat).

So... sisters are worth it because when they get trapped by a unit of skaven slaves they will slowly grind down a unit of entirely disposable slaves of no value whatsoever? That is the quality of the elite of elite gladiators of the dark elves?
Well, I'm certainly sold on never taking them ever.

Lord Dan
11-04-2014, 03:07
They are far from bad at all aspects of combat though, they fail at fighting high armor foes but far from all enemies are such. With a 4+ wardsave they have a fair chance at surviving in combat. They would be well worth their points if you could guarantee that they would reach combat.
Against the previously talked about Skaven slaves (5 wide sisters) in horde formation we get the following;
16 attacks from sisters, 10,66 hits before re-roll, slightly more than 14 after re-rolls
14 rolls to wound, 7 wounds, 2,33 ones, after re-rolls 8 wounds.
Slaves strike back with 16 attacks, 5,3 hits, 2,6 wounds, 2,22 after armor saves, 1,11 after ward saves. 1 Sister dead. The sisters actually killed more pts worth of models than the slaves (though barely so) and slaves should therefore be considered insufficient to grind them down (the sisters will kill more every round and will not lose the combat).

In combat they are good but while getting there they are extremely fragile and you will be forced to screen them to get anywhere. Black Guard of Naggarond is a good replacement for using sisters although they aren't as good at surviving close combat they hit just as well or better against most foes and at least a few of the arrows thrown their way can be saved.

Actually, you just made a fantastic point. Against Skaven Slaves, on average they barely make their points back each combat. God forbid they go up against something hard-hitting, like the full might of a HW+shield-armed Clanrat:

SoS: 16 attacks, 14.22 hits, 4.27 after saves.
CR: 21 attacks, 10.5 hits, 2.18 wounds after saves.

The CR have a banner, meaning they're looking at 3.18 CR to the Sister's 4.27. I'm sorry, but I just don't like those odds for models which cost as much as a Chaos Warrior.

Ramius4
11-04-2014, 03:47
God forbid they go up against something hard-hitting, like the full might of a HW+shield-armed Clanrat:

That just made my day :p

WhispersofBlood
11-04-2014, 04:30
People deploy clan rats in hordes? Interesting, I would love to play hammer against the people you play against.

Sexiest_hero
11-04-2014, 04:59
Let's not get snipe-happy with each other, things like high str one attack units, like GG (No talking about any buffs or vampires). they can do great, mass attacks works against any high cost low body units. that same unit of clanrats falls to witchs, and witches fall to another unit. A unit may not the be Best most op choice of the section but there is a big range from spam this unit and complete garbage the Net tends to miss. Some units are pretty good and not bad.

Lord Dan
11-04-2014, 05:13
People deploy clan rats in hordes? Interesting, I would love to play hammer against the people you play against.

I do, actually, though I usually fill out my core with Stormvermin. I know another Skaven player who runs a unit of 100 with spears in a 10x10. I actually laughed at this until I saw him cast Wither on a buffed-up Empire halberdier horde and summarily obliterate the lot of them in two rounds of combat.

Voss
11-04-2014, 06:48
Let's not get snipe-happy with each other, things like high str one attack units, like GG (No talking about any buffs or vampires). they can do great, mass attacks works against any high cost low body units. that same unit of clanrats falls to witchs, and witches fall to another unit. A unit may not the be Best most op choice of the section but there is a big range from spam this unit and complete garbage the Net tends to miss. Some units are pretty good and not bad.

Thats... great and all, but dark elves specifically can toss mass attacks around like candy, and do better than 2/model in the front rank and a single supporting rank for an extortionately high point cost. Most OP doesn't even come up in the discussion, just half-a-dozen other non-rare units in the same codex that do the same role better, and other roles as well.

Lord Dan
11-04-2014, 07:19
Another interesting thing about them is the fact that the units they should be really good against, like those big hordes of cheap troops whose ranks they can deny, generally don't care if they win or lose combat because they're generally headed to combat expecting to lose and hold things up with Steadfast. The place where Sisters could really make an impact - against units of harder-hitting infantry which still rely on some static combat resolution to hang around (High Elves, Orcs, Dwarfs, Lizardmen, etc.) - they can't reliably win.

30 Savage Orc Big Uns' (Horde) vs. 22 Sisters of Slaughter (Horde)

SoS: 32 attacks, 28.4 hits, 10.5 wounds, 8.7 after saves.
SOBU: 41.3 attacks, 20.6 hit, 17.2 wounds, 8.6 after saves.

Sisters lose by .9. We could do bus formation:

30 Savage Orc Big Uns' (Horde) vs. 22 Sisters of Slaughter (bus)

SoS: 15 attacks, 13.3 hits, 4.9 wounds, 4.1 after saves.
SOBU: 28.1 attacks, 14 hits, 11.7 wounds, 5.8 after saves.

Sisters lose by .7. On their own, they just don't put out enough damage, and so denying ranks to your opponent is really just an expensive form of slowing them down. About the best place for them is in a minimum unit in a 2x5 or conga line formation supporting an infantry block which doesn't decimate things on their own - Corsairs, Black Guard, Witch Elves, etc. - where denying your opponent's ranks might actually swing the combat in your favor.

Here's what could have changed the discussion entirely: if instead of denying ranks, Sisters of Slaughter denied Steadfast.

Clockwork
11-04-2014, 08:11
Lord Dan, isn't your math off? Won't the Sisters be wounding SOBUs on 4s? (S3 vT4 =5s, +1 from special rule)

Right, some points to clarify.

Almost everything in the Dark Elf army is weak to BS shooting. Shooting at the Sisters? Great, then the Witch Elves/Shades/Executioners/Dark Riders/Warlocks are getting away.
Second point, all Dark Elf combat units are exceptionally fragile. T3 5+ AS is generally the best that you can get on infantry. With WS6 and the 4++, Sisters are probably one of the toughest units in combat.
Related to the above, Dark Elves generally don't want to get stuck in long, drawn out wars of attrition. Being able to deny rank bonus can be a pretty powerful edge in a multi-combat.
Whilst they may be wounding T4 on 4s, their WS and special rule means that they will often be hitting on 2s. With re-rolls. Then Murderess Prowess. That can actually lead to a surprising number of hits/wounds. Yes, they struggle with armour penetration, but the Razor Standard can go a long way towards helping that.

For those still in doubt, stat out some Sisters against something tough - like Nurgle Halberd Warriors - with an equivalent number of Blackguard or Executioners. You'll be surprised at the results.

They can work if you use them as a tool alongside the rest of the book. Nonetheless, they do have that ranged attack weakness. Its a sad day in Warhammer when people bemoan that everything isn't a Skullcrusher.

Voss
11-04-2014, 08:18
Its a sad day in Warhammer when people bemoan that everything isn't a Skullcrusher.
I'd like to see that day. Instead we'll keep talking about a lousy 'elite' unit that struggles with basic infantry.

Clockwork
11-04-2014, 08:24
I'd like to see that day. Instead we'll keep talking about a lousy 'elite' unit that struggles with basic infantry.

Wow, its almost like some units do better against certain kinds of units than they do against other kinds.

Sexiest_hero
11-04-2014, 08:26
Savage orcs beat everything besides other top teir units, like witches, try them against black orcs or grave guard, or sword masters maybe. You can't pit an average unit with an top teir unit to make a fair judgement.There is this weird gamer trait where either something is a no brainer or it sucks.There should be a pretty good, ok , does what you need it to, requires skill and luck, ect. Again, just about everything gets trashed by savage orcs, that's why that's the only kind of orc you see.

Lord Dan
11-04-2014, 08:31
For those still in doubt, stat out some Sisters against something tough - like Nurgle Halberd Warriors - with an equivalent number of Blackguard or Executioners. You'll be surprised at the results.
Against a unit like Nurgle Halberd Warriors - which come, at most, with a rank bonus of two - it's the static combat resolution from the bloodbath between them and Executioners which win or lose the fight, not the -2 combat resolution contributed by the Sisters:

21 Nurgle Warriors with Halberds (7x3) vs. 30 Executioners (Horde)

Ex: 27 attacks, 9 hits, 7.7 wounds.
NW: 21 attacks, 10.5 hits, 8.7 wounds.

In an absolutely perfect world for the Dark Elf player those Sisters are corner to corner with the last Warrior in the row. Ignoring the fact that this actually takes away 3 Executioner attacks, let's assume they're in their optimal min-unit size - they're not contributing much in combat, after all.

SoS: 3 attacks, 2.25 hit, .8 wound, .4 after saves.

So, all in all, the Warriors are sitting on 9.7, while the Dark Elf side has 9.1. The Sisters negate the remaining rank on the Warriors, eeking out a 9.1 to 8.7 combat win. That's a tie, and if you want to get pedantic about it I can go back and see what the exact numbers are without those 3 Executioner attacks. :p

I just feel like I'd rather have ~10 more Executioners.

Leogun_91
11-04-2014, 08:34
So... sisters are worth it because when they get trapped by a unit of skaven slaves they will slowly grind down a unit of entirely disposable slaves of no value whatsoever? That is the quality of the elite of elite gladiators of the dark elves?
Well, I'm certainly sold on never taking them ever.No, I just answered the poster that claimed the slaves would grind them down pointing out the fact that in fact the opposite would be true if both spent the same points on their units. A unit of 15 Sisters is cheap enough to not have much value either and would statistically take down about 120 slaves, a unit of a higher value.
I'll give a few elite targets too then;
Against giantslayers, 16 attacks from Sisters of Slaughter, 13,33 hits, 15,54 after re-rolls (let's say 15)
15 rolls to wound, 7,5 wounds, 2,5 ones, 9 wounds caused after re-rolls.
9 Deathblows, 4,5 hit, 3 wounds, 1,5 after saves
21 attacks back from Giantslayers, 10,5 hits, 7 wounds, 3,5 after saves.
9 Giantslayers slain, 5 sisters dead, Giantslayers are ridiculously expensive.

Against Maneaters with pistols, 16 attacks from Sisters of Slaughter, 13,33 hits, 15,54 after re-rolls (let's say 15)
15 rolls to wound, 7,5 wounds, 2,5 ones, 9 wounds caused after re-rolls, 7,5 wounds caused after saves.
Ogres strike back with 25 attacks, 12,5 hits, 10,4 wounds, 5,2 after saves.
2 Maneaters dead and one wounded, 5 sisters dead, One man-eater is worth more than three sisters

In the three scenarios I have given they are well worth their points and in the latter two they would preform better than any of the other Darkelf elites.
Their margin isn't good and they die far too easy from anything with missiles of any kind but even a small unit can do some damage and if they support another unit you may break them quickly. Just removing the parry save from the unit they charge (not only from attacks made by the sisters themselves) will be worth it against Dwarfs or Tzeentch warriors.

Lord Dan
11-04-2014, 08:35
Savage orcs beat everything besides other top teir units, like witches, try them against black orcs or grave guard, or sword masters maybe. You can't pit an average unit with an top teir unit to make a fair judgement.There is this weird gamer trait where either something is a no brainer or it sucks.There should be a pretty good, ok , does what you need it to, requires skill and luck, ect. Again, just about everything gets trashed by savage orcs, that's why that's the only kind of orc you see.

It was an extreme example, I admit, but then so was pitting them against Skaven Slaves. I think the point to take away from both examples is that they perform almost identically either way, primarily because their 4++ makes them so survivable in combat. Unfortunately they're not stubborn and therefore can't reliably hold things in combat if they're not winning (and if they are winning, the Sisters likely cost a lot more points than the thing they're holding up...), and their rank-negating ability really isn't all that helpful for what you pay.

It's easy to claim I'm just complaining for the sake of complaining, however I'm honestly trying to find a solid use for them in-game and I'm not coming up with anything supported by numbers.

Lord Dan
11-04-2014, 08:37
You forgot Maneater upgrades and stomps in your latter combat, Leogun. More importantly, the sisters wound on 5's in both combats, not 4's.

Leogun_91
11-04-2014, 10:06
Actually, you just made a fantastic point. Against Skaven Slaves, on average they barely make their points back each combat. God forbid they go up against something hard-hitting, like the full might of a HW+shield-armed Clanrat:

SoS: 16 attacks, 14.22 hits, 4.27 after saves.
CR: 21 attacks, 10.5 hits, 2.18 wounds after saves.

The CR have a banner, meaning they're looking at 3.18 CR to the Sister's 4.27. I'm sorry, but I just don't like those odds for models which cost as much as a Chaos Warrior.You forgot Murderous Prowess, bumps up the sisters to causing 5,52 wounds after saves. But lets compare them to other Darkelf elites then;
Blackguard in the same setup, 16 attacks, 10,66 hits, 14,22 after re-rolls,
9,47 wounds, 2,37 are ones, 11 after re-rolls, 9,1 after armoursaves, 7,6 after parry
Clanrats bring 21 attacks, 10,5 hit, 5,25 wound, with 3,5 after saves
So the Blackguard kill 2 rats more but at the cost of one extra casualty,thats not better when we are talking models this expensive.

Har Ganeth Executioners
11 Attacks, 7,33 hits, 9,77 after re-rolls, 8,14 wound and the rest are ones, 9,47 wounds after re-rolls, 7,89 after parry saves
Clanrats bring 21 attacks, 10,5 hit, 5,25 wound, with 3,5 after saves
The Executioners kill three more models at the cost of one additional casualty, given a clanrats pricing compared to the elite that is pretty fair.

Clockwork
11-04-2014, 19:45
Against a unit like Nurgle Halberd Warriors - which come, at most, with a rank bonus of two - it's the static combat resolution from the bloodbath between them and Executioners which win or lose the fight, not the -2 combat resolution contributed by the Sisters:

21 Nurgle Warriors with Halberds (7x3) vs. 30 Executioners (Horde)

Ex: 27 attacks, 9 hits, 7.7 wounds.
NW: 21 attacks, 10.5 hits, 8.7 wounds.

In an absolutely perfect world for the Dark Elf player those Sisters are corner to corner with the last Warrior in the row. Ignoring the fact that this actually takes away 3 Executioner attacks, let's assume they're in their optimal min-unit size - they're not contributing much in combat, after all.

SoS: 3 attacks, 2.25 hit, .8 wound, .4 after saves.

So, all in all, the Warriors are sitting on 9.7, while the Dark Elf side has 9.1. The Sisters negate the remaining rank on the Warriors, eeking out a 9.1 to 8.7 combat win. That's a tie, and if you want to get pedantic about it I can go back and see what the exact numbers are without those 3 Executioner attacks. :p

I just feel like I'd rather have ~10 more Executioners.

Dan, my apologies. I didn't mean statting the Sisters with another elite unit in the same combat, but comparing them to see who comes out on top. For instance, take 15 Sisters. In an optimal formation they'll have 21 attacks generating ~18 hits after ASF, and ~10 wounds. With the Razor Standard they drop 6-7 and without it 5, whilst the Warriors kill 3-4.

On the other hand, an equivalent number of Executioners - roughly 18 - again corner-to-corner kill 4-5 but lose significantly more: between 7-8. So they kill fewer and lose twice as many models. Blackguard come out even worse.

Again, this is a very specific example, but it does demonstrate that Sisters can do just as reasonable a job as killing things as the other elites. So they aren't good at cutting through mass ranks of poor quality units - so what? Neither are Executioners.

Skinnydookie
11-04-2014, 21:18
You forgot Maneater upgrades and stomps in your latter combat, Leogun. More importantly, the sisters wound on 5's in both combats, not 4's.

No, they wound on 4's. Trial of blades gives +1 to hit AND to wound if at least one model is base contact has a higher WS or S.

As an aside I use Sisters of slaughter loads and they do great :)

Skinnydookie
11-04-2014, 21:19
You forgot Maneater upgrades and stomps in your latter combat, Leogun. More importantly, the sisters wound on 5's in both combats, not 4's.

No, they wound on 4's. Trial of blades gives +1 to hit AND to wound if at least one model is base contact has a higher WS or S.

As an aside I use Sisters of slaughter loads and they do great :)

Skinnydookie
11-04-2014, 21:49
Actually, you just made a fantastic point. Against Skaven Slaves, on average they barely make their points back each combat. God forbid they go up against something hard-hitting, like the full might of a HW+shield-armed Clanrat:

SoS: 16 attacks, 14.22 hits, 4.27 after saves.
CR: 21 attacks, 10.5 hits, 2.18 wounds after saves.

The CR have a banner, meaning they're looking at 3.18 CR to the Sister's 4.27. I'm sorry, but I just don't like those odds for models which cost as much as a Chaos Warrior.

Also these figures are wrong. Its right up to the hits (14.2) but with murderous prowess and lack of a parry save because of dance of death, its 5.53 wounds. The clanrats bit is right though. Don't understand why they get a banner and the Sister don't? At 10pts you'd always give them one (only 2 pts more then the clanrats).

Skinnydookie
11-04-2014, 22:26
It looks like you forgot they hit Savage Orcs on 2+ with re-roll's (thx to trial of blades and ASF) and they wound on a 4+ (thx to trial of blades) and murdorous prowess (re-roll 1's). I've changed the S.Orcs results due to more dead before they strike (i didnt bother looking at ranks etc):

30 Savage Orc Big Uns' (Horde) vs. 22 Sisters of Slaughter (Horde)

SoS: 32 attacks, 31.11 hits, 15.56 wounds, 12.96 after saves.
SOBU: 37.04 attacks, 18.52 hit, 15.43 wounds, 7.72 after saves.

Sisters win by 5.24 We could do bus formation:

30 Savage Orc Big Uns' (Horde) vs. 22 Sisters of Slaughter (bus)

SoS: 15 attacks, 14.58 hits, 8.51 wounds, 7.09 after saves.
SOBU: 26.91 attacks, 13.46 hits, 11.21 wounds, 5.61 after saves.

Sisters win by 1.48

As you can see, Sisters more then a match for Big 'Uns in combat.

Skinnydookie
11-04-2014, 22:53
Ok Nurgle warrior stats with murderous prowess for both SOS and Executioners. SOS stats fixed so that they hit on 3+ with re-roll thx to mark of nurgle and trial of blades +ASF and wound Nurgle on a 4+ thx to trial of blades:

21 Nurgle Warriors with Halberds (7x3) vs. 30 Executioners (Horde)

Ex: 27 attacks, 9 hits, 8.75 wounds.
NW: 21 attacks, 10.5 hits, 8.7 wounds.

(virtual) draw

21 Nurgle Warriors with Halberds (7x3) vs. 21 Sisters of Slaughter (7x3)

SOS 21 attacks, 18.67 hits, 10.11 wounds, 5.06 after saves
NW: 21 attacks, 10.5 hits, 8.75 wounds, 4.38 after saves

SOS win by 0.68

So SOS do better the Exec and 21 x SOS = less points then 30 Exec by 45 points.....

Not saying they are better with all my stats but definitely worth considering. the trick is getting them in combat. But if you can get them in there they will crush nearly everyone- there big weakness being 2+/3+ types. You need to go against foes where trial of blades (which they are paying for) work. Aginst slaves and the like it doesnt. Against Nurgle warriors and Savage Orc big uns it does and as you can see - they beat both.... if they got there intact. give them a try Lord Dan! :)

Lord Dan
12-04-2014, 01:23
Yeah, I didn't even see Trial of Blades listed in their profile the first handful of times I looked at them. Given that, I actually have to change my position on them - +1 to hit and +1 to wound is insane, and if you can manage to get them into combat they're going to actually dish out some serious damage against anything with S4.

Alltaken
12-04-2014, 04:20
That was my whole point all together. 2 great skills together, 1 for hunting S4 units and the rank reduction to help other combats. I'm pretty sure that if you calculate the wounds that if you include the wounds that warriors or savage orcs take they win by more. Their only problem on paper is shooting and bad rolls, thats why I though of the as a 15 man unit or so.

The other point is trail of blades goes on any unit that has a character basicaly, even skinks get S4, only casters might not get it activated

From my servoskull

Entreri Bloodletter
12-04-2014, 04:42
Don't forget that only a single model they are fighting needs to have S4 or WS7+ for Trial of Blades to activate. This means that even fighting a horde of goblins with a single hero level big boss will mean that SoS will be hitting on re-rollable 2's and wounding on 3's.
Just don't target the character until it makes since to do so.

I've had pretty good success running them with a Bloodwrack Shrine, with a BSB in the unit. I use it like an anvil that can actually break units that are not stubborn or unbreakable. With 3 ranks, 2 banners, and a warbanner I have a SCR of 6 before combat starts. Given that SoS are so hard to kill they don't give up much and the T6 of the Shrine keeps most units at bay, this unit can actually beat opposing units simply off of combat res and maybe a few kills. It also negates any enemy rank bonus so even more disparity in combat res. I typically use 15-17 plus the Shrine which gives me a total of about 6 ranks(Shrine takes up 15 slots), often times enough to break an enemies steadfast. Granted the unit is expensive but with careful screening and target saturation it can make it into combat.


I've also wanted to use SoS in a list with a Cauldron in it, probably not in the same unit but right next to it, re-rolls to wound with +1 to wound is crazy!

Lord Dan
12-04-2014, 05:25
Can you give them a Cauldron of Blood for a ward save? Or is that a Witches-only thing?

Shadowsinner
12-04-2014, 06:43
again though in most cases in which the SoS get trial of blades, its not as awesome as it sounds on paper. most strength 4 models are also tougness 4, so while the sisters are hitting on 2's they're still only wounding on 4's unless youre fighting say executioners. If they were S4 then they would be insanely good I think.

Lord Dan
12-04-2014, 07:15
It also occurs to me that the Trial of Blades mechanic works against the best reason to take the Lore of Dark Magic in the first place - Word of Pain. That said, I can't argue with +1 to hit and +1 to wound. For instance, that combat against the Savages I mentioned earlier completely changes:

30 Savages w/ AHW vs. 30 Sisters of Slaughter

Sisters: 40 attacks, 38.8 hits (with re-rolls), 21 wounds (with re-rolls), 17.51 after saves.

Suck it. Trebek. They mow down more than half the unit before the dumb brutes even get to move, leading to:

Savages: 37 attacks, 18.5 hits, 15.41 wounds, 7.7 after saves.

Sisters have 17.5 wounds and a rank, while the Savages have just 7.7 wounds, so the sisters win combat by 10.8. In a head-to-head showdown with Savage Orc Big Un's.Good God, don't take minimum units of these ladies, take them in mass numbers and find a way to protect them against the everything-but-the-kitchen sink shooting phases they'll encounter for the first two turns...

Shadowsinner
12-04-2014, 08:50
im assuming the 17 wounds are due to word of pain? a 480 point unit only dealing that type of output with the assistance of an outside source sounds really impractical. For the same cost, black guard with WoP is just better. For cheaper W/E with WoP are just better

Shadowsinner
12-04-2014, 09:23
^^ sorry i was thinking Word of pain reduced toughness instead of strength and misread your statement. Yes very counter productive

Skinnydookie
12-04-2014, 09:25
im assuming the 17 wounds are due to word of pain? a 480 point unit only dealing that type of output with the assistance of an outside source sounds really impractical. For the same cost, black guard with WoP is just better. For cheaper W/E with WoP are just better

No, nothing to do with word of pain. In fact, in the scenario Lord Dan outlined I made it 18.9 wounds for the SOS so a bigger win. I personally prefer them to Black guard. the main advantage of the Black guard is stubborn, but that only kicks in if you lose. The 4+ ward in combat (and other boosts) stops the SOS losing as much. The armor of the black guard is only one pip better against shooting so as awful as SOS are from shooting, Black guard aren't exactly great shakes vs it either. Both great units.

Alltaken
12-04-2014, 13:54
Black guard are really only good against elves this time around

From my servoskull

The bearded one
12-04-2014, 15:44
I would've said "compare them against ironbreakers" if they didn't specifically ignore parrysaves.

Lord Dan
12-04-2014, 15:55
No, nothing to do with word of pain. In fact, in the scenario Lord Dan outlined I made it 18.9 wounds for the SOS so a bigger win.

Out of curiosity, how?

Alltaken
12-04-2014, 16:26
So I tried it too.

No charge from savages.
If not mistaken choppas allowed 2 hand weps or great wep. So Lets go 2 hand wep for the +1 S turn 1.

30 sos vs 45 big uns for point for point comparison (no champs standards. Trial of blades is included

40 attacks on 2+ = 39 hits (rerolls included)
4+ to hit with rerolls for 1's = 21 wounds
I dont recall the save so I assumed 5+ = 7 saves
Total wounds 14

36 reamining orcs make 35 attacks (counting the extra hand wep) = 18 hits
2+ to wound = 16 wounds
4++ = 8 saves
Total wounds = 8

You're winning by 6 plus a 2, we're assuming de charged as not to activate frenzy. So its - 9, but it doesnt matter since they're stead fast.

On a orc charge
31 remaining orcs dish out 40 attacks = 20 hits
17 wounds
8.3 saves
8.3 total wounds
Orcs still loose by 5.7 plus 1 from rank bonus (charge discounted with 2nd rank).

If they go great weapons they might even get to keep the third rank and crush orcs utterly


From my servoskull

Lord Dan
12-04-2014, 16:35
If not mistaken choppas allowed 2 hand weps or great wep.
That's actually only a Black Orc rule. Thank goodness, because the last thing the world needs are GW-armed savages... :p



30 sos vs 45 big uns for point for point comparison (no champs standards. Trial of blades is included

40 attacks on 2+ = 39 hits (rerolls included)
4+ to hit with rerolls for 1's = 21 wounds
I dont recall the save so I assumed 5+ = 7 saves
Total wounds 14
Their ward is a 6++ unless they have a character in the unit which gives them the additional +1, so it would be 17.5 unsaved wounds from those 21 inflicted.


36 reamining orcs make 35 attacks (counting the extra hand wep) = 18 hits
2+ to wound = 16 wounds
4++ = 8 saves
Total wounds = 8

Regrettably, 36 Orcs actually have 46 attacks - 3 attacks each for the first rank (frenzy and additional hand weapon), 10 more for the second, and another 6.

Alltaken
12-04-2014, 16:54
Regrettably, 36 Orcs actually have 46 attacks - 3 attacks each for the first rank (frenzy and additional hand weapon), 10 more for the second, and another 6.
Its actually 50 :O totally miscalculated and forgot frenzy worked every turn (had my mordheim rules in my head I think)
20 for 2 nd and 3rd rank. 30 for frontal rank. Youch, still they'd lose I'd reckon, but remain steadfast

The last 6 stay on watching


From my servoskull

Lord Dan
12-04-2014, 19:51
Its actually 50 :O totally miscalculated and forgot frenzy worked every turn (had my mordheim rules in my head I think)
20 for 2 nd and 3rd rank. 30 for frontal rank. Youch, still they'd lose I'd reckon, but remain steadfast

The last 6 stay on watching


From my servoskull

That's what I get for trying to correct other people's math after 3 hours of sleep. :p Yay, finals!

Skinnydookie
13-04-2014, 17:41
Out of curiosity, how?

Ok, in your scenario 30 in hoarde so 40 attacks.

40 attacks hitting on 2+ =40/6 *5 = 33.33333333
Therefore 6.666666667 miss and can be re-rolled
6.666666667 attacks hitting on 2+ = 6.666666667/6 *5 = 5.555555556

Total hits = 33.33333333 + 5.555555556 = 38.88888889 hits total

Half the hits wound so 38.88888889/2 = 19.44444444 wounds.
1 in 6 of the rolls to wound will be ones and can be re-rolled so 38.88888889/6 = 6.481481481
Half of those wound so 6.481481481/2 = 3.240740741 extra wounds

Total wounds = 38.88888889+ 3.240740741 = 22.68518519

Savage Orcs have a 6+ ward save so 22.68518519/6 = 3.780864198 wounds saved.

So Wounds after saves = 22.68518519- 3.780864198 = 18.90432099

I could have got something wrong with calculation, stats etc so please could someone point out if I have.

Lord Dan
13-04-2014, 18:55
1 in 6 of the rolls to wound will be ones and can be re-rolled so 38.88888889/6 = 6.481481481


Here is the discrepancy - I've been taking 1/6 of the misses, not 1/6 of the total. Your results are correct.

Sexiest_hero
13-04-2014, 23:41
Why can't all threads be as civil and information based as this. It's the first time I've not rolled my eyes at math hammer, and learned a lot about a unit. Bravo to you guys. Now find me a good reason to ever take bleak swords....please.

Lord Dan
13-04-2014, 23:49
Why can't all threads be as civil and information based as this. It's the first time I've not rolled my eyes at math hammer, and learned a lot about a unit. Bravo to you guys. Now find me a good reason to ever take bleak swords....please.

You mean instead of Witches, Crossbowmen, or Corsairs?

I can't.

I DO, however, recommend them over Spearmen. :D

Ramius4
14-04-2014, 00:52
Why can't all threads be as civil and information based as this. It's the first time I've not rolled my eyes at math hammer, and learned a lot about a unit. Bravo to you guys. Now find me a good reason to ever take bleak swords....please.

Because you like how the models look? Other than that...? :p

bigbiggles
14-04-2014, 01:44
You get that weird feeling by calling them bleakswords instead of swordsmen/sword and board dudes like my group calls then

Lastavenger
14-04-2014, 06:02
Now find me a good reason to ever take bleak swords....please.If you use a lot of sacrificial dagger and feel guilty killing better troops. Alternatively you can be afraid of breaking spears. Shorter, wider swords are much harder to bend and break. Also they take less transport space. 6++ is not enough to find any in game use for them.

Lord Dan
14-04-2014, 06:22
Alternatively you can be afraid of breaking spears. Shorter, wider swords are much harder to bend and break.

This is the best reason I've seen yet.

Urgat
14-04-2014, 09:09
That's actually only a Black Orc rule. Thank goodness, because the last thing the world needs are GW-armed savages... :p

I think he meant choppa works on additionnal hand weapons and great weapons, not that savages have access to both :)